The Living Joyfully Podcast

We're back with a new episode in our Parenting series and we're talking about punishments, rewards, and autonomy. For most kids, life is a series of expectations: when and what to eat, when to sleep, what to learn, how to learn it. This loss of autonomy can cause disconnection with a child's inner knowing. Punishments and rewards, too, are designed to influence children's choices. How could things feel different if we didn't try to control our children? What we've found is that stepping away from that control leads to better understanding about the individuals in our families, and so much amazing learning.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Explore our courses and coaching at https://livingjoyfullyshop.com/.

1. Think back to when you were a child. Did you get to make many choices about your days? If so, how did it feel? Did you feel empowered? Trusted? If not, how did it feel? Frustrating? Like you weren’t trusted to make good choices? And who got to define “good”?

2. Were you punished as a child? If so, how did it feel? How did it play out for you? Did you spend your punishment time contemplating your “crime”? Or being angry with the person who set the punishment, feeling it was unfair? Over time, did you absorb the message that you were a bad person in general for getting in trouble? Were you more likely to continue the “crime” but hide it from your parents?

3. Did your parents reward you pretty regularly growing up? If so, looking back, does it feel like they were trying to use rewards to control or behavior and/or choices? Did you find that the rewards influenced your behavior or choices at the time? What, if any, impact did that have as an adult?

4. I find it so interesting to consider the relationship between a child’s autonomy and their learning about themselves as a human being. I encourage you to take a couple minutes to start brainstorming a list of the things you can imagine a child learning through making choices and seeing how things unfold. I think once you get the ball rolling it may well be hard to stop!

PAM: Hello! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging, because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships.

If you’re new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our introductory Foundations series. If you want to dive deeper, we also have courses and coaching, which you can explore in our Living Joyfully Shop! Follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.

And if you’ve been listening to and enjoying the podcast for a while, we’d love it if you could take a moment to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. They can really help encourage people to take a chance and listen to the show.

So, this episode is part of our Parenting series and we’re going to be diving into the ideas of punishments, rewards, and autonomy and how they weave together. And while we’re talking about this in the context of parenting, it’s equally valuable when it comes to any relationships.

So, let’s start with the bigger picture of autonomy.

And so that we’re starting on the same page, I see personal or individual autonomy just as the freedom to make choices and pursue a chosen course of action. Fundamentally, it’s how human beings learn: by making choices and seeing how they unfold. Sometimes things go smoothly, unfolding how we anticipated. And sometimes they go completely sideways. And most times, it’s somewhere in between the two.

But each time, we learn something. Maybe it’s about the choice itself, maybe it’s about the execution, maybe it’s about the environment, maybe it’s about ourselves—the list is vast. Yet when we’ve made the choice, we’re learning something meaningful, or at least useful, to us. And that’s at all ages, kids included.

So, when someone else makes the choices for us, which often happens for kids—choices like what they can do and what they eat and who they play with and what they wear and when they sleep—they learn different things. They learn less about themselves—their likes and dislikes, how their body likes to be fueled, how they like to express themselves, how they like to explore the world, how they prefer to engage with others—and more about their parents’ expectations.

Maybe they feel the rub and bristle at the line or limit their parents hold for them, but, certainly when they’re younger, they aren’t able to explore where they might draw that line for themselves. What is their personal comfort zone around the thing?

When we don’t get to make lots of choices as we go about our days, we don’t learn a lot about ourselves, adults or children alike.

ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And I’m really excited that we are talking about this! Because I think it’s something that doesn’t get a lot of play in parenting circles. Autonomy is such a critical piece of our human experience. And, like you said, it really is where the learning happens.

Understanding ourselves and our bodies is so important to overall life satisfaction, yet we systematically disconnect kids from this inner knowing from a very young age. For most kids, life is a series of expectations: when to eat, when to sleep, what to learn, how to learn it. And so, I agree, the learning that is happening is, ‘How do I please the people around me and do what is expected?’ And we learn this because it's how I survive and how I get love.

You will have the personalities that will buck against it, but those personalities are often maligned and made to feel there is something wrong with them, when it’s much more about the environment not being a fit, than it is that there is something wrong with that particular child.

And I want to say that I understand that often the guidance given by adults comes from a place of love and protection. We want the best for our kids. We want to protect them. We want them to learn things that we think will help them in life. But it doesn’t take much examination to recognize that this is just not how humans learn.

How many of us have had a well-meaning parent or spouse tell us that we should be doing something this way, or, this is how it's done, or this is what's best for you? And how often did that leave us feeling disconnected from that person, misunderstood, and sometimes even just irritated at the suggestion?

But we can offer our best information as part of what they take in to make their choice, understanding how different everyone is and that they may need to move through situations in ways that sometimes don’t even make sense to us. That's the path to honoring each person in our lives as individuals. We can share and we can leave space for it to unfold in a different way for the person in our lives.

When we have an agenda, and especially when we punish someone (as is often the case for children) for not meeting our expectations or following with our agenda, it is a huge blow to learning and autonomy and often the relationship as a whole.

PAM: Oh yeah. It really is. And I want to talk more about punishments, because, while obviously affecting autonomy, they also don’t often teach the “lesson” that parents really are, out of love, trying to impart.

The obvious impact on autonomy is that a punishment is designed to control the other person’s—most often a child’s—choices. Things like, "If you do this thing I don’t want you to do, I’ll punish you by making you do a thing you don’t want to do, like go to your room." Or, "If you don’t do this thing I want you to do, I’ll take away a thing that you want to do, like taking away access to your tech device of choice."

In that way, it can seem a little bit like tit for tat. The thinking seems to be that trying to relate the punishment with the crime somehow makes the punishment more effective while also giving the child “time to think about what they’ve done.”

Yet, in my experience, bringing punishment into the mix quickly focuses the conversation on the punishment: the details of the punishment (what, how long), whether it feels “fair,” and the execution (“go to your room,” “give me your tablet” and so on).

And then there’s the whole stage of policing the punishment: making sure they stay in their room, hiding the tablet so they don’t find it, and responding to the child’s pleas to end the punishment early. That focus shift to the punishment actually means that most of the child’s learning is about how to navigate punishments. Not just the pleading, but how not to get caught next time, or, having learned what the parent didn’t like, concocting a story that they hope will help them avoid punishment next time.

Just go back and see how very little of the child’s thoughts and learning are focused on the choice and action that sparked all this in the first place? What if, instead of jumping to punishment, the parent engaged in a conversation with the child? Getting curious about what they were trying to accomplish and why, talking about the context of their choice, sharing the pieces it seems they hadn’t considered when they made their choice, and about how things unfolded—is this actually what they were expecting to happen? That is where so much rich and valuable learning lies.

ANNA: Oh my goodness. Yes. 100%. There is so much learning lost with punishment. It shifts the focus from what was done, to the parent or person who is punishing. When they're in their room, they aren’t thinking about the actions that got them there. They're thinking about the person who put them there.

Let’s say even with an extreme example of a child or teen doing something that harms another person. Then say the punishment is to take away their device or take away their car if we're talking about a teen. The focus of the child is now on the fact that their car has been taken away and all of the problems that will cause them. They most likely will be angry at the person who is wielding this power over them.

If, instead, like you were talking about, we have a conversation about what happened and empower and even help them to make amends, they feel supported and connected and are learning how to repair after a mistake. And that is a skill that will serve them in every personal or professional relationship they will have, because we will always make mistakes. Humans make mistakes! And sometimes those mistakes hurt other people.

And I wanted my kids to feel my support, I know we all make mistakes. And I wanted them to know that I’d walk through the repair with them. My priority is always going to be our connection. Because it’s from that place of connection that we can navigate the tough stuff that life throws our way.

The minute you choose power and punishment over another person, you have lost them. They may still physically be there but they do not feel connected, supported, or understood. Life is going to throw a lot of curve balls at everyone. Learning how to stay connected through the tough stuff just makes things so much easier.

And if we find ourselves reaching for punishment as a tool to control situations, we can examine when we are try to control others and see it as red flag, as a sign to step back and see where maybe we’re feeling pinched, or where we’re feeling controlled. Because it’s so often when we’re feeling controlled that we clamp down on those around us.

But recognizing that, we can then turn to identifying our own underlying needs and begin to address them. We can look to the broader context. Are we feeling under-resourced? Are we feeling a bit disconnected? What’s happening contextually for us and for our children? Because, to me, it’s just really interesting think about, because punishment isn’t a tool we use in adult relationships. Power-over is not a healthy dynamic in any relationship. So, why not start learning the skills of communication and understanding with our kids? Those are the skills they will need, so let’s spend our life practicing them together.

PAM: I just want to highlight one of the things that you said there, that piece that when we find ourselves reaching for control with enthusiasm, so often it's worth taking a moment to just ask, are there places in my life where I'm feeling a little out of control? Where I feel like someone else is controlling me? Because that energy, I can be shifting and turning outward. So, it's like, okay, I don't feel like I have a lot of control here. I want to get back that feeling of control and maybe in a completely different way, but these are all my emotions. So, they're balancing out in me. If I don't have it here, I'm going to bring it here. So, that is always something that is interesting to look out for when we're feeling that pull to punish.

When punishment is a well-used tool in the parenting toolbox, that is the process that kids learn for navigating conflict, for navigating these kinds of situations, and will be what they reach for, as you mentioned, in adult relationships.

So, no, they can’t send an adult friend to their room or take away their phone, but, as I was thinking about it, they do try other versions of that, the “silent treatment,” which ignores someone like they’re not there, and communicating, “I’m mad at you and don’t like what you did.” But it’s kind of like they’ve been sent to their room and, “You’re out of my life. I’m just going to ignore it.”

There are so many unhealthy relationship tools that adults use. They're versions of punishment. Like, how can I punish this person in my life without being able to literally send them to their room?

ANNA: Right! It’s that blame/fault matrix that just carries over and it’s so destructive to personal relationships.

PAM: Exactly. So, definitely, we want to learn different tools growing up!

I also want to touch on rewards, because at first we can wonder. Rewards are positive things. How on earth could they affect a person’s autonomy and learning? But that’s the thing. Rewards are directly related to a thing a person, or child, is doing. And it’s natural for us to reward the things we like and ignore the things we’re indifferent about. Even if we’re not punishing the choices they’re making that we don’t like, when rewards are in the mix, they still get the message.

And many kids want to please their parents. They’re going to pick up on those subtle cues that “making this choice and doing this thing makes my parents happy so I should do more of it,” and conversely, noticing the choices they make that aren’t rewarded. So, they may choose to avoid those things, or do them out of sight so as not to feel judged by the parent’s indifference.

And at first we might think, “That’s great, a way to avoid outright punishments while still managing to manipulate our child’s choices in the direction we as parents believe are better.”

But again, let’s take a closer look at what they’re learning and how this approach might unfold over the years. The priority becomes learning the choices the parents do and don’t like. Wanting to please their parents, kids can find themselves making choices that, while they are regularly rewarded for them, they don’t particularly enjoy.

And I know we’ve all heard stories of kids who are talented in a particular area who grew up with the rewards and expectations of excelling in that sport or skill only to burn out in adulthood and needing to basically build a new life. See how the child’s autonomy can be subtly, but impactfully over-ridden.

If the child loves the activity, they don’t need regular external rewards to keep going. Sure, we definitely want to celebrate the accomplishments along the way that they are keen to celebrate! That’s the differentce. I feel like celebrations are so different from rewards. A celebration is focused on the child’s wishes, while a reward is based on the parent’s wishes. And just that perspective shift makes a world of difference, doesn’t it?

ANNA: It really does. And I think you're right. That celebrating, we're celebrating their experience, what they're loving about something, what they're bringing to us, versus the reward is this, like, “reach this point and you're going to get this,” which is so external, you know, just the complete opposite of, you know, really doing something from inside your heart and what feels good to you.

And absolutely, rewards really are just the flip side of the whole manipulation/control coin. And I think our invitation today is to just consider why. Why do we need to control another person? I think one of my big growth areas years ago that took me some time was understanding that I do not know what’s best for another person. Not my spouse, not my kids. I know what’s best for me most of the time. Sometimes I still have to figure that out. But that’s it. Just me. I can only know what’s best for me.

And again, I can share the things I’ve learned along the way, why I’ve made the choices I’ve made, what happened when things went sideways and what I learned from that. That’s all super interesting information for somebody to have, but it doesn’t mean the same choices will end the same way for them. It doesn’t mean what works best for me will work best for them.

And rewards are interesting, because they do create this external focus that I think can disconnect us with what we truly want, what has meaning for us. And like you said, if you grow up in a reward environment, is it crystal clear what is being considered “good” and what is being considered “bad”. And kids learn what is needed to get the approval of their parents, because, again, there is an innate survival mechanism at play.

And my sincere hope was to empower my kids to listen to their bodies and their own inner voice to cultivate a connection with their own unique knowing. And any type of control I would throw in there, be it rewards or punishments, just served to cut them off from that knowing.

And I think many of us can think back and see how we had to relearn how to listen to our inner voice and to our bodies over the year. We’ve spent many years navigating systems and many times family dynamics as well that wanted to control our decisions and tell us what we wanted and what we should do or even who we should be. And it is a process to figure out what we actually wanted, the person we want to be, and to separate those from all of those outside voices.

And there is a different way and it fosters that inner knowing. And our children, kids are amazing and so capable! They have clear ideas of what they want and there really are reasons behind it. As we stay connected, have conversations, and learn more about them, we start to understand their choices. We start to really see it through their eyes.

And as we share our needs and hear theirs, then we can start working together to meet all the needs. This isn’t about handing control of the family to children. It’s not about control at all. It’s about everyone having autonomy over their life and time and working together to navigate being in relationship with one another. And again, I will just say, learning those skills throughout childhood, I see it in my adult daughters all the time and get feedback from those in their lives who also see that difference, because they’ve already had two decades of living this way.

PAM: Oh, yeah. That's something I just keep saying over and over and over. Kids are so capable. Kids have reasons for the things they do. Kids are making choices, bringing together all they they know, what their experience has been so far, and they're just trying something out. So, I think that's so fascinating.

Parents can be really worried. “They'll never make the right choice.” And as you mentioned, when you see through their eyes, you can see why this seemed to be a reasonable choice or a thing that they wanted to do. However, it unfolds, you can see why they went in that direction. It's fascinating and they are so capable. I love that.

ANNA: And even if it goes sideways, if we're staying connected to them, then we can talk about that learning. When we're disconnected, we're not able to have those conversations about, “Whew! That went sideways. What do I want to do differently next time?” Because they're worried about being punished or they're worried about us not being connected to them. And so, it's such a lost opportunity when we use those tools of control versus connection.

PAM: It's a lost opportunity, not only of learning for everyone, it's a lost opportunity for connection. The connection you feel when you're being supported by someone that you love, someone in your life who is with you when the things go sideways, where we're not worried about punishments being meted out or rewards being withheld, but we're just all there in the mess. In the moment and figuring out how we want to move through it.

Life will give us lots of experiences in that way, and we will learn so much about each other and the ways that we want to move through it, or the ways that are helpful for us to process and move through it and so on. So, it is just that so much is lost when we jump to punishments. Because, like we've been talking about this whole episode, that’s where everything goes, that's where the focus goes, that's where the conversation goes, that's where the learning goes, all those pieces.

So, weaving together these ideas of rewards and punishments and autonomy, I’ve really enjoyed doing that, because I think it gives us such a richer picture of how children can learn so much about themselves and how they choose to engage with their world. It's fascinating to ponder the often unintended impact of both punishments and rewards and how they can impinge on a child's autonomy.

So, here are some questions to ponder this week around these ideas. Number one, think back to when you were a child. Did you get to make many choices about your days? And if so, how did it feel? Did you feel empowered? Did you feel trusted? If not, how did it feel? Was it frustrating? Did it feel like you weren't trusted to make good choices? And who got to define good? That's another big piece.

Question two, were you punished as a child? If so, how did it feel? How did it play out for you? Did you spend your punishment time contemplating your crime? Or being angry with the person who set the punishment, feeling it was unfair? Maybe you didn't get a chance to explain your perspective. Over time, did you absorb the message that you were a bad person in general for getting in trouble? Were you more likely to continue the crime, but hide it from your parents?

Question three, did your parents reward you pretty regularly growing up? If so, looking back, does it feel like they were trying to use rewards to control your behavior or your choices? Did you find that the rewards influenced your behavior or choices at the time? What, if any, impact did that have on you as an adult? That's so interesting.

And number four, I definitely find it so interesting to consider the relationship between a child's autonomy and their learning about themselves as a human being. So, I encourage you to take a couple of minutes to start brainstorming a list of the things you can imagine a child learning through making choices and just seeing how things unfold.

And I do think once you get the ball rolling, it may well be hard to stop.

ANNA: I think so.

PAM: I think that will be a lot of fun. And it just, again, it gets us back to that open and curious mindset. It's just like, you know what? Let's just open things up and put on a new lens and just try things out and let's just see what we discover.

ANNA: Because so often, what got us to the place of wanting to control and punish is just, that's what we knew. And so, just try some new ideas and see how it impacts your relationships, see how it impacts just your life satisfaction, see how you all are learning new skills. I think it'll be fun.

PAM: Anyway, thank you so much for listening, everyone. Bye!

We’re back with another episode in our Relationships series and we’re talking about examining our have to's. We often use the words, "I have to," or "You have to," without even realizing that we're saying them! But those words add weight to our lives and they take away our choices. If, instead, we get curious about our language and start questioning all of the have to's, a whole world of possibilities opens up. It's then that we can learn more about ourselves and our loved ones and really tune in to what we want and need. It's powerful!

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Find our coaching and courses, including Navigating Family Gatherings, in our store at LivingJoyfullyShop.com

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

1. Look at the places you are using the words “have to”, find the why and identify some different choices. How does it feel? 

2. What areas are you telling the people in your life that they “have to” do something? How does it affect your connection? Initiate a conversation with them to find the why and see if that changes the energy around the request. 

3. Use the lens of everything being a choice this week and see if you notice any shifts or recognize any resistance.   

ANNA: Hello! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be tricky because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our introductory Foundation series. If you want to dive deeper, we also have courses and coaching, which you can explore at our living joyfully shop. Follow the link in the show notes, or you can go to LivingJoyfullyShop.com.

Okay, so this episode is part of our relationship series, and we will be digging into the idea of have to's. Have to's are an interesting idea to deconstruct. It's part language, part intention, part external noise. And I feel like language is probably the best place to start. When we use the words "have to" for so many things, like it's so ubiquitous. It really has become such a common phrase that we don't even realize the weight it's adding to everything. "I have to go to the store." "I have to call my mom." "I have to do the dishes." "I have to, have to, have to." And then the weight of that is actually even, I feel like, compounded when we put have to's onto our children or to other people in our life. "You have to brush your teeth." "You have to go to bed." "You have to finish the food on your plate." "You have to go to school." "You have to cut the grass." "You have to finish that project." And on the surface, those things may seem like have to's, but orienting to the idea that everything is a choice can really help empower and bring a lot of clarity about our actions.

We're going to dive more into that in a minute, but bringing some intentionality to our language can really change the energy. And understanding the why behind the things we're viewing as have to gets us to the root of what's going on and is often where the choice lies.

PAM: Yes, yes. I think intentionality can make all the difference in how it feels to do so many things.

I think the phrase "have to," is often used as a shortcut. So, skipping right past the intention and into expectation. The language that we use, both when we're speaking to others and when we're speaking to ourselves can make a huge difference in the energy with which we approach the task at hand.

So, when I notice myself saying, "I have to do X," I notice that it often feels like a weight and I immediately start to build some resistance to doing that thing that I need to overcome before I can even get started, because apparently I don't like being told what to do.

So, to play with that, I just try to change up my language, maybe saying something like, "I want to do X," and just see how that feels. Sometimes my first reaction is no, I do not want to do that. But I can still stay with that for a moment. I might ask myself, "Why might I want to do that?" So, exploring those reasons can help me move from those expectations back to my intentions. I suspect there were originally some reasons that made sense to me that shifted my language into that shortcut realm of "have to," and rediscovering those can help me lean back into, "Oh yeah, that's why I want to do X."

So, the language we use, both with ourselves and others, can just be so helpful in more gracefully navigating the ins and outs of our day. I mean, that shortcut, oh, that's going to save me time. I'm going to be more efficient. But eventually, we forget about the intention that was behind it. And that can drag it out. It's definitely worth exploring.

ANNA: It starts to carry as a weight. I think that's where the weight comes, because suddenly we're like, "Oh, we've got all these have to's. Where is this coming from? What's happening?" We really have lost sight of why we're there and why we wanted to be there and what was the whole purpose in the beginning. And I just feel like language makes such a difference with that.

And I will say that I know saying everything is a choice is something that can sometimes raise hackles for people, because I've been saying this for a very long time. But as soon as you start to break things down, the choice is more evident. And it's often rooted in the why, why we want to do something. I don't have to brush my teeth, but I do because it helps them to remain clean and healthy. It's not the only way. It's one way. And once I understand that, I can make an active choice about how I want to address my, why my need for clean and healthy teeth. Then I'm in control. It's not happening to me. I've regained my agency.

And as humans of any age, we want agency over our lives. And yes, this applies to children as well. So, taking that time to find the choice with our children paves the path for learning, growth, and empowerment. They don't have to go to bed. They might want to, if they need to be up early the next day, or they might not. They might be fine with a couple nights of getting less sleep and then they may want to sleep in longer the next night. They might try it and learn that it didn't feel good the next day and they tease out what works for them.

But the learning in that is so much more robust than being told what to do, where what we're learning at that point is that they have no agency and are supposed to do what someone else thinks they should do. And when we walk that out just a tiny bit, we can see what a slippery slope that is, disconnecting them from that understanding. And we'll talk more about autonomy in our next episode, but it just wanted to plant that little seed for now.

The important piece, I think, to consider today is, what does it feel like to realize that everything is a choice? What I know for myself is that as soon as I think something isn't a choice, I need to stop. I need to take a breath and get back to my why, because there is a reason I'm doing whatever task is at hand.

It serves some purpose in a bigger picture. And as soon as I can identify my why, I can start to see the choices.

So, I can stare at a full sink of dirty dishes and think, "I've got to clean these dishes." The reality of it is, I don't. I could go out to dinner. We could use paper plates. I can throw all the dishes away. And while I might not do that, sometimes it's helpful to take it to the extreme because again, it highlights the choice. Then, if I do the dishes, I know that I've decided it's the choice that best serves me in that moment.

And so, even if we look at jobs, because this one I'll come up a lot with the jobs are important. They are. If my job is feeling like a have to, though, I really want to examine what's going on, because of course I can quit. There will be consequences to that, but I don't have to go to work. And if we look on the smaller scale, let's say I don't have to go to work that particular day. If I was sick or there was an accident, I wouldn't be there and the world wouldn't end.

If I find that I'm feeling bad as an ongoing pattern, then I want to look at the bigger picture to find my choice and my why again. Maybe I choose to go because it's an easy commute and the hours work well with the rest of my life. Okay. I'm back to understanding my why.

When the time comes that those things aren't enough, then maybe it's time to look beyond that job and start to find the priorities that are bubbling up in my life at this current moment. But if I stay in that "have to" place, I just end up resenting the job, probably not doing it very well. And then that discontent bleeds into the rest of my life.

I want to catch that as early as possible and ground back into my knowing that everything is a choice. It may take a minute to see it, and I might still end up making the same choice that called it all into question, but it will feel so different. And that energy makes all the difference in my overall engagement and just joy.

PAM: Yeah. I find it so interesting to remind myself that I have a choice, particularly at those times when I feel like I don't, right? At first it can be confronting, but it can definitely be fun and enlightening to find the choices that are buried underneath all those expectations that we've brought in.

And one that comes to mind for me is attending family gatherings through the holiday season. It can sure feel like I "have to," but again, it's really, really not. Do I actually want to go? I can ask myself that. As you mentioned, if I was sick in the hospital, I wouldn't be going and nobody would be hassling me about not being there.

And you mentioned going to the extreme as well. And it's interesting that we sometimes need to do that to remember that our wishes have value in this choice. But it can also be such a great way to just knock loose that initial "have to" pull. "If I broke my leg and I'm in the hospital, I wouldn't have to go to work.

I wouldn't have to go to the family gathering," all those pieces.

So, what I find really interesting is that once I can just release that "have to" my resistance to it also fades, and I can actually start contemplating the choice itself. So, I start to envision what I would do instead of doing that thing and what I would miss by not going.

So, that leads me to ask myself why I might want to go. And again, once the expectation is released, those intentions have space to start bubbling up. Now I can acknowledge, maybe there are a couple of things that I enjoy about attending and I can start looking forward to actually going. And even more interesting, if I choose to go, as you mentioned, I now realize what I enjoy about it and my energy when I show up is anticipation rather than feeling put upon and looking to leave as soon as possible. "I have to stay for two hours and then I won't get in trouble," etc. And when I'm there, I'm also intentional about engaging in the things that I was looking forward to, because I've thought about it now. Maybe it is striking up a conversation with a particular cousin or an aunt who's going to be there or leading a fun game of charades for whoever wants to play, or just enjoying the food that we don't normally get to eat.

So, I can soak in the pieces that fill me up, enjoying the whole experience much more than if I just showed up because I have to. There's another tick box that I filled. So, even if I do that expected thing, my experience can be very different just because I remembered that it was my choice to go.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. I love that example, because I'm sure it's one that many of us can identify and have. faced, probably, at some point over our lifetime. And understanding our choice and operating from that place really does allow us to move through a holiday season with intention, more joy, we aren't being dragged around and controlled by have to's. We're choosing with intention and that energy changes everything.

And I think it helps to realize that, so often, these have to's are actually external voices weighing in with agendas or prescriptions and those voices tend to champion a singular path. "You have to go to college, you have to get married, you have to buy a house, you have to play sports, you've got to play an instrument, you have to learn a language." But you can see with those how it's saying way more about the speaker than it is about you or your child.

So, people have their biases and there's a comfort in moving other people towards the path that feels comfortable to them. I'm sure I've been guilty of it, too. But like we've been talking about since the beginning, people are so different. And there are so many different paths to learning and growth and for just being a human.

Being aware of where the voices are coming from gives us so much information. We can start to see that it is more about the other person, and perhaps that's something that they want in their life. And then we have a choice, if we want to take that on as our own, or if our inner voice is leading us in another direction. And I have found 9 times out of 10, have to's are coming from these external sources and I really don't want to be buffeted around by other people's expectations of me. I want to tune in to my inner knowing and decide on the path that makes the most sense to my life and to the relationships that I want to cultivate.

And again, it's just bringing intention to that and recognizing that, okay, that's outside of me. What is in me? What do I want to do going forward?

PAM: Yeah, yeah, that's definitely been my experience with so many of the have to's that bounce around my head, and as you said, sometimes come out of my mouth, have much more to do with expectations from others that I have just absorbed over the years.

So, basically a mix of all of the conventional wisdom that surrounds all the things I need to do to be successful in society's eyes. And it really can take a while to tease that apart from what I actually think and feel, because they have become so intimately intertwined. And, in fact, it didn't take long for examining my have to's to become questioning my definition of success, right?

I realized I have absorbed what success looks like over time, but what does success actually mean to me? And that really helps me tease apart the things that I actually feel motivated to do. And I could be motivated to do things I don't particularly enjoy, because they help move me along a path to a bigger picture goal.

And I find it more helpful to recognize that bigger picture than try to keep beating myself up with, "You have to do this," over and over and over. Just remembering why I'm choosing to do this. Even if I didn't really feel like getting up early to do the thing, or I didn't really feel like working on it this afternoon, et cetera, but recognizing that bigger picture can really help me realize that it's not a "have to," it's an, "I choose to." And as you said, Anna, there are just so many different paths, because people are so different. That one-size-fits-all approach of the conventional path doesn't actually fit well for very many people. So many outliers.

ANNA: True, and it can take years to unpack that and to find the path that truly makes the most sense to us, especially if it happens to be a bit more alternative or not fit into the narrow lines that we've been told. But I think understanding all of this that we've been talking about in this episode, we can bring intentionality to our language. We can release the agendas that are being handed to us and find our own unique paths. We can understand and help articulate our why and help our children find and articulate theirs. Through that process, we learn more about them. We learn more about ourselves. And I've just found it really empowering. And it's just also a red flag that I look for when I'm feeling a little disenfranchised or a little dysregulated, or just not feeling happy with what's happening in my life, this is usually a good place for me to go. What am I putting as weight or have to's? What's happening? And to find that why, to find those reasons, to look at that bigger picture, like you were saying, and then suddenly I'm like, oh, I've got it. I know why I'm here. I know why this is feeling that way. And here are the things I can change. So, there's just a lot there.

PAM: I know it, it really is. It's such a simple concept, such a simple idea, when you notice yourself saying "have to," especially if you don't go, "Oh, yay!" it is so worth digging into. Because it doesn't have to take a long time. Some are a little bit harder to dig into than others, a little bit more challenging. But it's just so worth taking that extra minute or two to reground ourselves in why we want to do the thing, because literally it changes our energy, because we found our intention.

We bring a more intentional energy to it. We can appreciate the act of doing the thing, whatever it is. Even if it's doing the dishes, remembering that I'm choosing it. Ah, now I'm going to set myself up to enjoy this a little bit more or I'm going to more intentionally bring some zen energy to it or whatever it is that I have found that I can appreciate. Or maybe it's like, Ooh, what I appreciate is having it done and let's see, how can I speed it up? It brings back that playful energy that we talk about so much, right?

ANNA: Exactly. Open and curious. What can we do to change that feeling that weight that we're carrying around about a particular thing? And I think you're right. It's that combination of finding that why and then, like, okay, what can I do to make this feed me and be more interesting or bring in something different? And so, yeah, I love that point as well.

So, just a few questions to ponder this week. First, let's look at places where you find yourself using the words "have to." Find the why and identify the different choices. And how does it feel? What does that process feel like to really dig in there a little bit?

And second, look for areas where maybe you're telling other people in your life that they have to do something. Step back a bit and look at how is that impacting your connection, maybe initiate a conversation with them to understand their why, to talk about your why, and see if that changes the energy around the request in general.

And then I would just say, let's use the lens of everything being a choice. Even if your hackles were raised when you heard it at first, just bring it in and see how it feels this week. And just see if you notice any shifts or if you recognize the resistance and then look at that. Because again, when I'm feeling like I don't have a choice, that is my red flag to like, whoa, I want to understand where that's coming from and look at what can I do? What can I do to release some of that weight?

PAM: I really do find that is such a fun question. What if I didn't do that? What would happen? It is really interesting, because so often we've got that weight of, oh, there'd be so much trouble and all these people would be mad at me. And it's so interesting to just contemplate, because then, even if you're sure you would never not do the thing, it's that shift to realizing, but it's a choice. Everything is a choice.

ANNA: Right. I absolutely want to do it, because this is what feels best to me. And then, oh, my gosh, it's just so different to just go, "I want to do this." And so, right. I just find it such a valuable process. I'm so curious how that lands for everyone and what they uncover over the next week. But anyway, thank you so much for listening. And we will see you next time. Take care.

We're back with a new episode in our Parenting series and we're talking about validation again. And this time, we're diving into what it looks like to validate our children. It can be hard to understand or identify with our children's big emotions sometimes. But even then, validating our children's emotions and experiences is such a powerful way to connect with them and help them move through challenging moments. Making sure that children feel heard and seen helps them better understand their internal experience and leads to stronger communication skills. Validation really is a game changer for any age!

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Explore our courses and coaching at https://livingjoyfullyshop.com/.

1. Similar to a question from the previous validation episode, over the next couple of weeks, practice seeing moments through the eyes of your child. Not just ones where they’re upset, but also ones where they’re excited or happy. Can you see why they are expressing that emotion in that moment?

2. Do you find it hard, particularly with your children, to not project their behavior in this moment into the future? If so, take some time to ponder how that may interfere with navigating this moment and try out some new self-talk to help you transition back into the present moment.

3. Do big emotions feel triggering for you? It’s worth taking some time to dig deeper into that to help detangle your feelings from their feelings, which can be really helpful when we’re trying to validate someone else. You can check out episode 21 to explore triggers specifically.

PAM: Hello! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging, because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our introductory Foundation series. If you want to dive deeper, we also have courses and coaching which you can explore in our Living Joyfully Shop. Follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.

This episode is part of our Parenting series, and it follows from the recent validation episode in our relationship series, episode 26. Today, we're gonna look at validation specifically through the lens of our relationships with our children.

In the earlier episode, we talked about the importance of seeing through the other person's eyes to help us empathize with them, and that is just as valuable with our children. I think sometimes our society devalues and minimizes children's feelings, thinking they get upset over silly things. But in my experience, that is just not true.

To experience that yourself, we need to bring two of the tools we talked about last time into our interactions with our kids and that's seeing through their eyes and not having an agenda. Their actions and reactions often really do make sense when we look at the situations through their eyes, when we consider their experiences so far in life, their perspective on the situation at hand, their goal in the moment, and the different aspects of their personality.

Very often, when we bring those all together, when we see what this moment looks like through their eyes, their actions and reactions make sense. This is their truth. Regardless of what it looks like through our eyes, this is what it looks like through their eyes. Full stop.

And also, how we would process and move through this moment may well not work for them. When we meet them where they are, when they feel seen and heard, and when we support them in moving forward in ways they want to explore, we help them learn so much about themselves. Of course, that means releasing our agenda around what that looks like and helping them find what it looks like for them.

When it comes to our children, we often think we need to teach them what it looks like, but they are different people than us. Again, different experiences, goals, personalities. Chances are what works for us won't work well for them.

ANNA: Oh my gosh, it's so true. And I'm very excited that we're talking about validation related to our children. When people are wondering, how do I improve my relationship with my child or teen, this is it.

And so, I want to start with a quote from Brené Brown that's kind of related to this, and it's just a simple quote and it says, "In order to empathize with someone's experience, you must be willing to believe them as they see it and not how you imagine their experience to be."

So, just another twist on what we were saying about seeing through their eyes, but it's such a critical step. So, however we can get it to land for someone, because many times, what someone is feeling in the moment may not make sense to us. And when we're talking about children and big emotions at times, it can be truly baffling.

We can wonder, how did we get here? But what we can do is trust that what they're expressing in this moment is their truth. Full stop, like you said.

PAM: Yes. It's not manipulative at all. This is what they're seeing and what they're feeling in this moment. It just is.

ANNA: Right now, in this moment. And when we can hear that and reflect back our understanding, it helps them move through the big emotions.

They aren't put in a position of defending why they're feeling a certain way. And if, in fact, we hear them start defending, you can be pretty sure that we're making it about us. And that defending we're hearing is about our lack of understanding. And that's the red flag, and it isn't helping them process the upset in front of them at all.

So, it's important to start from the understanding that with validation, we're not trying to solve it. We're not trying to downplay or tamp down their emotions or anything about the experience at all. We're tuning in to understand their feelings and the intensity around what is happening for them without agenda, without judgment. And as you said, this is a critical piece, because it's very easy to fall into judgment. It's very easy to go, "Why are they so upset? What is this about? This is ridiculous." But we need to quiet that judgment because that is just going to escalate, escalate, escalate, and disconnect.

And validation is such a wonderful tool, and it's absolutely critical for these strong connections so that we can all feel heard and understood.

PAM: Yeah, it really, really is. And to meet our children with empathy and validate their experience, it is really helpful to have a sense of the underlying needs they're trying to meet and the context of how that is playing out in the circumstances of the moment.

We talk about underlying needs so often, but it's so valuable, right?

And for me, that follows along from seeing things through their eyes. That gets me asking myself the question as to what need is underneath there. So, not just that they're upset because their sibling won't give them a toy, but noticing that the toy they're wanting is say a stuffed tiger that over in the far corner you see, they've placed blocks three high into squares, and that two of the squares hold a stuffed bear and a plastic ostrich respectfully while a third pen is empty, which reminds you of your family trip to the zoo last week, and you go, oh, they're playing out that scene.

You also know that this child in particular likes to process things through play. So, now it's making more sense that they're so intent on the stuffed tiger, remembering how much they enjoyed watching the tigers at the zoo last week over the big pile of random stuffies on the floor next to the kids. "Why does it have to be this stuffy?" It's going to be easier to validate them now that we better understand what this moment looks like to them and what it feels like to them.

That is such an important step because we want to avoid making those dismissive statements like, "It's not a big deal. Just grab another stuffed toy." Or, "Why do you get so upset at such little things?" Because comments like that can leave a child feeling misunderstood. Definitely not feeling seen and heard and loved for who they are.

Having spoken with lots of parents over the years, when it comes to upsets, it's pretty common to think, but I don't want to validate these big emotions. It feels like I'm giving them permission to do it even more, but you're really, really not. Over time, our kids develop tools that help them navigate hard moments by being heard and working through these kinds of hard moments as they arise with a trusted person.

Validation and working through these moments is what helps them develop the self-awareness to notice when their emotions are rising and explore some tools for their toolbox that help them take action before they bubble over. That is what helps lessen the frequency, not being told they're overreacting and have to stop it right now. We're expecting them to figure out on their own how to stop their emotions from spilling over, just because you told them to stop. Right?

So, another aspect of validation to consider is, it's less about validating the emotion itself and more about validating the circumstances that led to the emotion, because that's where the richer learning lies. So, for example, maybe they're playing a video game and get upset when they can't accomplish something they're trying to do. If, wanting to validate, we say, "Oh, I see you're so angry." Well, yes, they're expressing anger, but once we focus on the emotion, where does the conversation go from there?

Maybe they respond with an even louder, "Yes! I'm so mad!"

But if we can bring more context in, we might say something like, "I know you were so excited to try that level today. I'm sorry it's been so frustrating." And we sit with them. We're sending the message that it's okay, their feelings totally make sense.

Maybe they were feeling angry and we helped them notice the underlying frustrations. See, notice that I had used the word frustration instead of anger. Maybe their feelings felt a bit over the top to them, even. They were like, why the heck am I so mad about this? And we helped them see how they got there, that they were extra excited about playing this level and that's why they are extra bummed right now. I mean, right there, there's so much learning.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. So much learning for everyone. And I want to talk a minute about examining our language, because it's so important that we want to use language that will help us get to the underlying need and make sure that we're maintaining the connection. And to that end, avoiding those definitive type "you are" statements is a great place to start.

We want to be open, we want to inquire, we want to reflect back what we're seeing from the person and the situation, like you were talking about there, that frustration, knowing what they were wanting to do with the game.

And we can give language to emotions, but not in a way that feels like we're defining who they are. And that's an important nuance. It can be phrased like, "It sounds like," or, "What I'm hearing," or, "I remember that you were wanting to do this and that's feeling frustrating. Is that what's going on?" Or, "Tell me more about it.

I really want to understand." And just that piece, that earnest, "I really want to understand" can bring down intense energy, because they know they don't have to fight to be heard or understood. They can see that we're engaged and present and trying, and you can then rephrase in whatever way feels good to you.

But it's about being clear in our intentions of trying to understand, of seeking clarification, that helps the person know that we're engaged. And that we know their feelings are valid, even if we don't fully understand them yet. And that's okay. We don't have to instantly understand. But it's that willingness, it's that earnestness, it's that care.

And so, I'm just going to run through a quick example from siblings. So, "I hate my sister!" Okay? So, this is one that some of us have heard. And it can spark this kind of protective instinct that can end up bringing more charge to an already charged situation. But if instead we can hear that type of language and come into the room like, "Whoa, how is everybody? It sounds like maybe you've had enough. Are you wanting to be alone?" And then that kind of questioning can lead the child. Maybe they say, "Well, I don't want to be alone, but she's not listening to me," or whatever the thing is. And then we might say, "Okay. So, I really want to understand. Is it about what you're playing now? Or that she's not hearing you? Or you're done with this game? What do you need her to hear?"

And then that drills us down to the issue and it becomes something that we can actually find a solution for. Because, "I hate my sister," doesn't really provide a path forward, but dismissing that with, "Oh, but she means well," or, "You love her," or, "She loves you," or even worse, judgmental language like, "That's not nice. We don't say things like that," all of those dismissing phrases, it puts the person on the defensive and humans just double down when we're on the defensive.

But if we can get to those issues, if they feel heard, and then they can move forward with some solutions. If it's about listening, we can help facilitate a conversation that moves us towards a solution. And just in case HALT is involved, which we talked about, hungry, angry, lonely, tired, I would just move those discussions to the kitchen for a snack while we sorted things out, just in case hungry was involved.

And I also wanted to be really aware of avoiding dismissing statements like, "You're too sensitive," or, "This is not a big deal." Or, "Why do you get so upset at everything?" Or, "You can't take a joke?" These are things that some of us heard, especially sensitive people, in our childhood, and it just feels terrible. All of those statements and anything like them are so disconnecting. And it just leaves the person not feeling understood, not connected, and you feel like you'll never be connected, because they'll never understand you.

So instead, we can offer kindness. We can offer love and support. That is what helps maintain our connection and it allows the person space to move through their emotions knowing that they're valid.

But here's the thing, our emotions are valid and nothing good comes from stuffing them down or denying them. And if we have the space to process, we will learn the tools and subsequent situations may not be charged, because like you said, people may think, "But I don't want to validate these big emotions, it's just gonna be more."

And maybe it seems like a paradox, but it isn't, and you mentioned it too. We develop the tools by being heard and by working through the upset, especially with a trusted person as a child, working through with a trusted advisor, a parent who hears them and acknowledges, that helps them find the tools to move forward and to even understand their own emotions, because that's what it's all about for little kids, especially as they're trying to understand the emotions.

Everything feels big and they want to know what's happening? How do I move through it? Because it can feel so unsettling and scary even. And by being validated and heard, it allows them to process all the big things that they're feeling. And it can be really valuable in the process of helping them find words.

For example, we've talked about before, angry behavior is often an expression of another emotion. It could be frustration, like you talked about with the video games, or it could be hurt or loneliness. And digging into that can help a person move forward. So often, when we uncover that underlying emotion, it removes the block that we're seeing. People can stay stuck in that emotion, that kind of higher level, that angry type of emotion until that underlying emotion is identified and understood. And they really don't even understand why they're stuck there until we start to identify it.

Reflecting back what you're seeing, being open and kind, and helping them uncover that underlying need and feeling, gives them the tools to excavate that for themselves as they grow.

And the more clearly we can express our needs, the easier time we have in all of our relationships. So, it's such a valuable skill to practice with our kids, both for their growth and honestly for our own.

PAM: Yeah. Really. We all grow. Getting into these conversations and really seeing through their eyes and validating their experiences can help us learn so much as well.

So, something else that can trip us up as we try to validate our children's experience and emotions is projecting this moment into the future. When we start thinking things like, "Are they going to get this upset every time they don't get their way?" we can feel like we need to nip this in the bud right now. And that is fear talking.

You can feel the or else hanging off the end of that thought, right? Or else they'll still be acting this way when they're 25 and they won't have any friends. When fear gets into the mix, tunnel vision soon follows, and we are much less able to see the bigger context of the current moment.

Where can we most help them understand themselves and explore other ways to navigate these kinds of challenges? Well, right now, in this moment. Projecting into the future definitely makes this much harder.

And one other thing I want to mention explicitly is that the ways we validate different people can look very different. Which, I mean, if you've been listening to this podcast past for any length of time is not much of a surprise right now. How can we help THIS child feel seen and heard in THIS challenging moment? So, for some it's about joining them where they are, reflecting back to them, our understanding of them in this moment, validating the intense feelings they're feeling as they're feeling them. That helps them feel seen, heard, and more able to get to a place where they're ready to move forward.

For others, it may be about holding space for them without words, in the heat of the moment. Conversations are for later, but even holding that space can feel validating to someone. Our calm presence can communicate that they aren't being judged for having these big emotions or being rushed to move through them to make others comfortable.

The energy of a loving and compassionate space being held for them can feel validating, and then more validation and processing can happen in conversation later when the intensity has passed. So either way, in those later conversations, we can also ask them what they'd like us to do to help them next time they're feeling overwhelmed with big emotions. We can try that next time and then check in again to see how it felt. We can tweak it and try the new plan next time, over and over.

I just think it's so helpful because when people start thinking about validation, so often they think it's something they need to say, but our actions, even silent actions, can be validating as well.

ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And I feel like this is where it's so important to know your child, your partner, and honestly, yourself. Because, for many people in the heat of an upset, they don't want words, but they also often don't want to be left alone. So when we have those big emotions, it can be scary, especially for children, but really for anyone. When people run away or try to stop the emotion, it just feels terrible.

So, if instead we can show that unconditional love and stay present, it helps the big emotions wash through without the added weight of, how are they landing on this person I love? We don't have to feel bad about the feelings. And that can help us move through them. And when verbal validation is not welcome in the heat of the moment, there are so many ways to be present and validate without words just being that calm presence, like you mentioned. Some may want to physically be held, others may just want us sitting nearby or on the other side of the room, but still there. It could be fetching a comforting toy or something that feels good to them. It could be moving them to a quiet space, because we can tell there's some sensory overwhelm in that particular situation. Or maybe it's clearing the room if they're not able to move, maybe shepherding other people out to something fun so that we can bring the sensory input down in that way. It can be getting food and water.

We had this thread in the Living Joyfully Network where we talked about what we needed personally to feel heard and validated and seen in an upset, and it was fascinating. Everyone was so different. I personally want to be alone. I need to process before I'm ready to have anyone else's energy in that situation. But others wanted someone there the whole time, even if they said they didn't want anything and didn't want them to stay, which I thought was fascinating and a little bit confusing.

But it's so important and it's why it's so helpful to have these conversations outside of the heat of the moment, so there just aren't misunderstandings and we can be present for the people we love in the way that they need us, not necessarily in the way that would feel good to us. Understanding those nuances of how we move through things can really help.

And I think what I loved about the thread was it showed how different we all are, and recognizing those differences in us as adults who were the people that were responding, helps us see that it's different for our kids, too. Each of our children are going to have their own ways that feel validating for them and the things that they need in any given moment.

And for people who prefer non-verbal, again, there's so many things you can do. So, whenever I hear someone say, "Well, my child doesn't like to be validated," I'm just like, hmm. We need to get curious and tweak our approach a little bit, because it's probably not tuning into what feels validating to them. Because I think what's often easiest is we do what would feel validating to us in the moment. Again, we're putting ourselves in their shoes versus seeing through their eyes, because I will firmly stand on the belief that every human wants to be heard and seen in a way that feels good to them.

And so, let's figure out what helps them feel good. Let's figure out what helps them move through an upset. And we do that by having conversations outside of the heated moments and just learning about one another.

PAM: Exactly. I mean, learning how to validate my children was one of the biggest game changers in my relationships with them. I do think absolutely, we all want to feel seen and heard and loved for who we are. I mean, even for myself, any age, any age. I feel it makes all the difference when it comes to cultivating connection and trust in our relationships.

So, here are some questions to ponder this week around this idea. Number one, similar to a question from the previous validation episode, over the next couple of weeks, practice seeing moments through the eyes of your child, not just ones where they're upset, but also ones where they're excited or happy. Can you see why they are expressing that emotion in that moment? That should be fun.

Number two, do you find it hard, particularly with your children, to not project their behavior in this moment into the future? If so, take some time to ponder how that may interfere with navigating this moment and try out some new self-talk to help you transition back into the present moment.

ANNA: That's an important one.

PAM: I know, right? Yes, that just got me thinking about all the times. That transition is very familiar, because it is so easy to go, oh my gosh, you know?

ANNA: Is it always going to be like this? No, just come back to the moment in front of you.

PAM: That's where we can have the most impact.

ANNA: And the learning, right? That's where the learning is on their part. On our part. That's where the practice is. That's where the trying on the tools are, and that's how we shape the future, is by tending to the moment in front of us.

PAM: Exactly. Beautifully said. Okay. Number three, do big emotions feel triggering for you? It's worth taking some time to dig deeper into that, to help detangle your feelings from their feelings, which can be really helpful when we're trying to validate someone else. So, you can check out episode 21 to explore triggers specifically, if this is something that you're finding as well.

ANNA: Definitely.

PAM: Thanks so much, Anna, and thanks so much everyone for listening. We will see you next time!

We're back with a new episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about assuming positive intent. It's so common to take someone's words or actions personally and assume that they are trying to irritate, thwart, or hurt us. This happens because we naturally see things from our own perspective. But going into a conversation with those assumptions is pretty much guaranteed to put the other person on the defensive, making productive conversation and connection basically impossible. Assuming positive intent means assuming everyone is doing the best they can in the moment, and that mindset shift can improve our communication and strengthen our relationships.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Explore our courses and coaching at https://livingjoyfullyshop.com/.

1. Think back to a time when someone gave you the benefit of the doubt and contrast that with a time when someone assumed the worst in you. How did you feel? How did you react? How did it impact your relationship with that person moving forward?

2. Think of some recent exchanges - were you feeling defensive? Did you notice the other person defending? Think about how assuming positive intent could have changed that. 

3. This week, notice the stories you’re telling yourself about other people’s actions.  How often are you assuming positive intent? Do you find it hard to do? Why?

4. Think of a recent exchange with someone in which you felt defensive. Did you notice the other person defending in response? How long were you stuck there? How might have assuming positive intent and holding space to learn more changed how things played out? 

5. Are there particular people in your life to whom you don’t typically give the benefit of the doubt? Try on assuming positive intent for the next while. How does that shift things?

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our Foundation Series. In them, we talk about our favorite fundamental relationship ideas and tools. If you hear us mentioning a concept over and over again, chances are it has its own episode in the Foundation Series. You can also visit our shop and find the Foundation Series in a podcast collection bundle to be emailed to you weekly, including transcripts and questions.

You can find the link in the show notes, or you can go to livingjoyfullyshop.com. There you can also find information about our coaching, as well, so if you'd like to talk through things that are happening in your relationship and find a healing path forward, that's the place to go. We both work with individuals and couples and again, link in the show notes, or you can go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.

So, this episode is part of our Conflict Series and our mini-series inside of that about developing our self-awareness. So, today we're diving into assuming positive intent. This principle is a quick tool that helps us stay connected and open.

I think, culturally, we tend to assign negative intent. Our first thought is that someone is doing something to thwart us or irritate us or that they don't have a clue. But so often, that's not the case. And whether it is or isn't, going into a conversation with those assumptions is pretty much guaranteed to put the other person on the defensive, which makes having any sort of productive and connecting conversation basically impossible.

And as with so many things we talk about, this plays into being the person we want to be in the world. I want to assume the best in people, because I've seen when I do that, it's often what I find. We are all doing the best we can at any given moment. And that best can change dramatically based on the contextual pieces of life.

When we are under-resourced, our ability to think clearly and act with intention is clouded. I want to be a person that allows space and grace for that, because I know there have been plenty of times that I've been there and I've needed that from others. So, assuming positive intent can be assuming that the person is doing the best they can in this moment with the circumstances as they are.

PAM: Absolutely. I just love that piece about how doing their best can look very different from one day to the next, or one moment to the next. It's not about thinking what their theoretical best looks like, measuring them in this moment against what they would do if they were feeling fully resourced, fully rested, fully fed, in a great frame of mind, and so on. They really are doing their best in this moment. This is what it looks like. It's the best they can muster. Let's meet them there with as much grace and compassion as we can muster.

Over the years, assuming positive intent has become such a helpful touchstone for me when it comes to relationships, particularly with partners, kids, longtime friends, where we have a history. And I can be quick to assume I understand them and tell myself a story about why they're saying or doing something.

And as you said, I am apt to tell a negative version of the story about the situation or to feel put upon or ignored or misjudged. And it's not surprising. We are looking at the world through our eyes and evaluating what's happening around us through that lens. How does this affect me? But what assuming positive intent does is remind me that there is almost always more to the story than just my perspective, knowing that they're doing the best they can right now, whatever that looks like to me at first, encourages me to widen my lens and get curious. So, so, so many times over the years, this buffer step has saved me from actively jumping in, misinterpreting things, blaming others, which all create even more rifts in our relationship that need repair.

ANNA: I mean, it is such a great reminder to look through their eyes, which I know we talk about a lot, but it's so important. It just helps so much.

And we're going to make some assumptions. But starting from that place of assuming the best, or at the very least, giving the benefit of the doubt, just sets the stage for us to learn more and to not fall into that blaming or writing stories that can get us off track.

And another piece I think that helps with assuming positive intent is to understand that underneath every behavior is a need. We had an episode on this idea as it relates to parenting, episode 25, and as we mentioned there, this is true for everyone. We try to meet our needs through our behaviors, and while sometimes the somewhat linear process, "I'm thirsty and I'm going to get a drink now," sometimes it's a bit harder to recognize, especially from the outside.

But part of assuming positive intent is understanding that the person you're dealing with is trying to meet a need. At that particular moment, your needs might not be aligned, but if we can slow things down and give some space to find the underlying needs, that's the space where we can find solutions. That surface-level conflict that seems insurmountable and at complete odds, that can just melt away as we figure out the needs involved and address those.

So, let's say if a person's working for you and they haven't turned in a report, instead of assuming that they're irresponsible or don't care, look for that underlying need. Have an open conversation with the energy of wanting to understand. Maybe you find out that they've had several fires they've been putting out that took priority, or they didn't understand the request, or that they were waiting for some information from a third party before they could finish it.

Being open and not jumping to conclusions gives you a chance to find out what's happening under the behavior of not turning in the report, and then you can both work together to solve the problem at hand instead of creating friction or a rupture by making a harsher assumption. And there may be things that need to be addressed or systems that need to be changed, but you're only going to get there if you can have that open conversation where the person's not on the defensive and really telling you what's going on.

And part of what we can practice with our partners, children, and the people in our lives is providing additional information. But the space for that to feel safe is in the space of assuming positive intent. There, we can have these clarifying conversations. We can explain how things are feeling to us and really hear what the other person's experiencing.

PAM: Yeah, exactly. Because if we assume that the first story that pops into our head is the right one, so often what we're doing is putting the other person in the position of having to correct us. And that is a hard thing to do in any relationship, whether with a loved one or a supervisor, or even a newer acquaintance.

So, assuming positive intent helps us cultivate that space for further conversation where we can just learn more about what's up, where we can discover the underlying needs they were trying to meet with whatever words, action, behavior they used. The valuable thing about focusing on the needs is that there are often multiple ways to meet them, some of which may have less negative impact on others.

So, we can also share our needs in this context and all this bigger picture information helps us work towards a plan that everyone involved is reasonably comfortable with.

And I wanted to mention, while it may seem that assuming positive intent and having these conversation takes up precious time we don't feel we have, not doing it is likely to take up maybe even more time down the road, as we continue to butt heads, because we're missing some fundamental understanding of each other's needs and goals. Then you add the time to repair the relationship. Or if you don't, the extra time things take in the future because one or both of you are dragging your feet because you just want to avoid engaging with each other in the first place.

ANNA: Oh my gosh, so much. I'd much rather spend the time upfront in a connecting conversation with an eye to understanding each other, rather than dealing with hurt feelings and misunderstandings on the back end.

And I really think, in the end, it's more efficient, because we're actually getting to the needs and solving any roadblocks, versus pressing ahead with made up stories and assigning malicious intent that ends up creating these huge disconnects that take time and effort to heal and we still may not be addressing the need underneath. And so, it just keeps repeating.

Another big aspect of this is releasing any defensiveness on our part. A person's actions say way more about them than about us. They give us a clue as to what's going on for them, and we can assume positive intent. They have the space and the desire to let us in on what those things are, but if we react with defensiveness, communication just shuts down every time and it becomes this attack and defend tit-for-tat dynamic or a stalemate, and then we're stuck. So, we aren't learning anymore about the needs driving the behavior or what contextual pieces might be at play. We're not learning anything about those pieces that are so critical. And all of this draws out the conflict and doesn't move us towards solutions.

So, assuming positive intent leaves space to get to the bottom of things faster without sparking that defensiveness in the other person and we can own our own pieces, too, to not get defensive. And I think we can all think of how nice it feels when someone gives us the benefit of the doubt and doesn't assume the worst, even if we're not at our best, or especially if we've made a mistake. Because usually, we're so hard on ourselves. We're beating ourselves up about the mistakes. So, then having that compounded just creates this cycle. Recognizing that's at play, it just makes it easier for me to give that gift to other people in my life, whether we're in a close relationship or it's just transactional.

For me, again, it boils down to being the person I wanna be in the world. And the bonus is that it really just makes everything go so much more smoothly. We move through and often avoid conflict, and we get to the root of things without that defensiveness that can feel so unpleasant and without those misunderstandings that can cause a lot of hurt feelings.

PAM: Yeah, so much. Things unfold more smoothly and often more quickly when people aren't feeling judged and defensive. And it makes sense. Getting stuck in that repetition of attack, defend, attack, defend, slows things down so much, while also not getting to the root of the issue or the underlying needs.

And along those lines, I find it helpful to remember that assuming positive intent isn't about, instead telling myself a positive story and acting from there, because that is still making it about me and my interpretation, my need to infer a story and to be right about it.

But as you said, Anna, their actions really are all about them. It's their story. So instead, for me, assuming positive intent is more about knowing there's a story and not jumping to conclusions, particularly the negative ones, because that just makes moving through the moment even more challenging. Getting curious instead of getting stuck in defensiveness helps create that space for the kinds of honest, non-judgmental conversations that will help everyone better understand the needs at play and find interesting ways to meet them.

ANNA: Yeah, I think that assuming positive intent, it's just a way to give some space around things. We aren't writing a story at all. We're acknowledging that there's more to the situation than just what we're seeing. There always is more. There just always is. And leaving space for that. Asking for clarification without any negative energy or agenda just puts us in the best position to learn more and move forward.

And to say it again, we are all doing the best we can in any given moment. Keeping that in mind, assuming positive intent helps us uncover the needs that are driving the behaviors that we're seeing.

All of which helps us stay connected to the important people in our life and avoid unnecessary conflict with them or anyone we come across.

PAM: I just go back to that for the nth time already, but doing the best we can in any given moment, I think it can be challenging for people to believe. Like, "I've seen them handle this so much better before."

ANNA: Or, "They should be able to," when we catch ourselves saying, "They should be able to," that's a red flag.

PAM: That's always a great clue. But also when, in our mind we're like, "Okay, I could do this, which would be like better. But I do this other thing anyway. It's what I reach for." So, even if theoretically we could choose something better in the moment and we don't, that's still okay. We may not be able to express why we made the choice in the moment. But we made that choice in the moment. And maybe these conversations after will help us better understand ourselves, better understand what was going on in that moment.

It might help us recognize some other weight we were carrying or some other thing that was going on that we just couldn't take that extra 10 seconds to think of something else to do and we just needed to do this thing in the moment. So, we don't need to judge things as best. We don't need to figure out any scale or spectrum of what could be better, better, better, better. This is what happened in the moment, and oh my gosh, I can meet you there. And we can just have conversations.

ANNA: And figure out the next steps, because we never know, and there's so many contextual pieces. I'll just say it over and over again. We cannot judge a relationship without taking into account these contextual pieces that changes peoples behaviors because of a myriad of reasons. We see it in ourselves, like you said. And so, just watching for those words, the shoulds or the judgment or the kind of standing back and then realizing like, hey, that's really disconnecting and I'm not getting the full story. And when we open up for those conversations, that's when we can learn. Do we have a systems problem here? Do we have a communications problem here? Do we just have a, we're all hungry problem here? Let's get some food and then we'll tackle this afterwards.

It can be from the simple to the complex, but you're never going to get at what it is if you don't assume the positive intent, start having the space for the conversation, and then have that clear communication between one another.

PAM: Yeah, exactly. And back to what you say, the person that I want to be in the world. And as far as I can reach for that in the moment, giving myself that same grace and compassion we want to give to the other person.

ANNA: For sure. Okay, so, we're going to give some questions to reflect on this week.

So, number one, think back to a time when someone gave you the benefit of the doubt and contrast that with a time when someone assumed the worst in you. How did you feel? How did you react? How did it impact your relationship with that person moving forward? Because we've all gotten both sides of this, and so, I think we can all think of some examples and just really sit with, "Hey, how did that feel and how would it have felt differently?"

And number two, think of some recent exchanges where you or the other person was feeling defensive. Think about how assuming positive intent could have changed that. And so, for me, defensiveness is just that red flag either on their part, or if I'm recognizing it in someone else or seeing it in myself, it's like, okay, we can change that energy. We can change the way this conversation is going, because neither one of us need to feel defensive. We're here to understand.

PAM: Defensiveness is such a great clue.

ANNA: Yes. Such a great clue.

PAM: It's pretty easy to feel once you're starting to look for it. So, that's what we're trying to encourage here, is just to start noticing these things even just that little bubble of oof, there it is. 

ANNA: Right. It's just that little, there it is. And even if you can't make that change in that moment, recognizing it to reflect on it later, then you can notice like, okay, I see what's getting me there. Now maybe I can think of some steps to not go to that place of defensiveness.

Okay. So, this week, number three, notice the stories you're telling yourself about other people's actions. How often are you assuming positive intent? Do you find it hard to do? And why? Are you writing some stories? Are you assigning some more malicious intent? I think that will be really interesting to just see, because I think, like we talked about earlier, it comes pretty naturally. We're just running through and it happens. And so, just that awareness gives us that little pause, that little space. Okay. And four, think of a recent exchange with someone in which you felt defensive. Did you notice that the other person was defending in response? How long were the two of you stuck there? How might have assuming positive intent and holding space to learn more changed how that played out and how that tit-for-tat was going?

And number five, are there particular people in your life to whom you don't typically give the benefit of the doubt? Try on assuming positive intent for the next bit and just see, does that shift things in what can be some difficult relationships or some areas that you get stuck? It's just something to play with and again, will give you more information about that relationship and about some ways that maybe you can tweak a few things.

PAM: To me, that trying on things, seeing how they go, just doing it for a little while and seeing how things unfold, that is such a valuable approach for me. Rather than like, oh, I should be assuming positive intent. I'm going to do this all the time or I've failed. None of that helps me either as I'm learning this stuff and trying to figure it out and play with it. I need the experiences, the gathering of experiences for me to understand how it's working. Because when I see something, like you said, you have seen this over the years, we both have, play out in such a sense that it's something we've chosen to adopt because we found it as a helpful tool. So, we're sharing it as a helpful tool, not as a rule that you must do this now.

ANNA: There are no edicts or "have to," it really is play with it and see if it shifts things, because it also may just open up to other ideas that shift things or other conversations with the people in your life where you're learning more about one another. And to me, that's the goal. Learning about ourselves, learning about one another, and just improving our relationships along the way.

All right, so thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.

PAM: Bye!

We’re back with another episode in our Relationships series and we’re talking about validation. Validation might just be the most valuable tool in our relationship toolbox, yet it’s not something that a lot of people have experience with—most people were not validated as children.

It can take practice to develop the skill, but that work is worth it. Every person wants to feel seen and heard, which in turn paves the way for smoother interactions, less conflict, and more learning about the important people in our lives.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Find our courses, including Navigating Conflict, in our store at LivingJoyfullyShop.com

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

1. Do you feel the difference between sympathy and empathy? Think back to a challenging time you experienced and how others engaged with you. Did you feel a difference between sympathetic and empathetic responses?

2. Over the next couple of weeks, practice seeing moments through the eyes of your partner or a good friend. Not just ones where they’re upset, but also ones where they’re excited or happy. Can you see why they are expressing that emotion in that moment? If you put yourself in their shoes, would you feel the same emotions?

3. Do you find it hard to release your agenda around how someone else moves through their challenges and emotions? Try some different mantras or self-talk and see what helps you transition from seeing the path to your expected outcome to being curious about and supportive of their path to their outcome.

4. What feels good and validating to you when you’re experiencing a challenging situation? Let your partner or friend know and ask them to try that with you next time you’re frustrated or upset about something.

PAM: Hello, and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our Foundations series. In them, we talk about our favorite fundamental relationship ideas and tools. If you hear us mentioning a concept over and over, chances are it has its own episode in the foundation series that you can check out to learn more.

And before we get started, we just wanted to let you know that we recently released a course titled Navigating Conflict. It will help guide you through different aspects of conflict and give you some concrete tools to help you more gracefully navigate conflicts in all your relationships. Because conflict isn't a zero-sum game where one person wins and the other person loses in equal measure. Often we can find win-win paths through the situation. All of the course content is available in both text and audio formats, so you can dive into whichever works better for you. Maybe you're listening on some days and reading on others. You'll find the Navigating Conflict course in our store at livingjoyfullyshop.com. You'll also find the link in the show notes. Check it out and see if it's a good fit for you.

As for today's episode, we're diving into the art of validation as part of our relationships series. Okay, so let's just take a moment to situate ourselves. In the sense that we're talking about it, dictionary.com defines validation as the act of affirming a person or their ideas, feelings, actions, et cetera, as acceptable and worthy. And I think that's a pretty good place for us to start.

It's important to note that validation isn't about praising the person. Praise is a judgment that we're expressing. It makes the interaction about us and what we think, taking the focus away from the person we're wanting to validate. Affirmations are nonjudgmental observations that we're sharing. See the difference? How sharing an observation can help a person feel seen and how taking the time to notice and share can help them feel worthy of our attention and care?

For me, validation is about being in an authentic relationship with another human being. That's it. It's not at all about control or coercion or subtle manipulation. There is no ulterior motive. The only goal is connecting and learning more about each other as human beings.

ANNA: I'm so excited to be talking about validation, because I really believe it's the most valuable tool in the toolbox. I say it so often, but every person wants to feel seen and heard, period. And understanding that paves the way for smoother interactions, avoiding conflict, and like you mentioned, learning more and truly understanding the person in front of us, all of which leads to deeper connections with those we love and easier exchanges with those in our lives for any reason.

And I feel like validation is not something that a lot of people have experience with. Most people were not validated as children. And it can take a bit of practice for it to be that first tool that you reach for, which I think is so often where it needs to be. Instead, a lot of times defensiveness is where we go first, and if we start there, things can derail. So, when we reach for validation, it allows that space for energy to calm, for the person to feel heard, for us to learn more about what actually is going on in the whole situation.

PAM: Yeah, it's true. It can take a while to gain experience with moving through our reactive emotions to get to the space where we can actively listen to and validate the other person and to just get reasonably comfortable with how validation works, right?

So, I think it will help us to take a moment and look at how sympathy, empathy, and validation weave together in our relationships, because those are pretty common terms that we hear, but it can sometimes be hard to tease them apart. So, I think this will help us get a better sense of what we are talking about when we say validation.

So, sympathy acknowledges emotion in another person. We feel bad for them having to go through whatever challenge they're experiencing. We wish things were better for them.

Now, empathy is about feeling WITH another person. Theresa Wiseman is a nursing scholar and she talks about four characteristics of empathy. Number one is seeing the world as the other person sees it through their eyes, not putting yourself in their shoes. Number two is being non-judgmental, recognizing that this is their truth. Three is understanding the other person's feelings. And four is communicating your understanding through words or actions. So, as you just think about those right off the top of your head, at this point, you can see this is our processing work to do. So, I just want to quickly step through them in a little bit more detail.

So, the first step is seeing the world as the other person sees it. I think this piece can really trip us up, because it's not about putting ourselves in their shoes so that we can take stock of the situation as it looks to us, asking ourselves what would we do in similar circumstances. Rather, it's about looking at things through the other person's eyes, understanding what they are seeing in this moment, what their needs and challenges actually are. This includes the context of their life from how their day is going, to how their unique personality is woven in, to what they find challenging and easy and frustrating. And it can even be how they prefer to process things. We just want to get into their head and see things through their eyes, to be them as best we can. And I think that's the distinguishing difference.

Now the second step is the non-judgmental piece, which is really about recognizing that the way they're seeing and feeling in this moment is their truth, full stop. Right now, this is the truth to them. It's not that the way we see the moment is wrong, it's that their perspective isn't wrong either. We are different people and this is their truth.

The third step is understanding their feelings, which I think is pretty self-explanatory. Bringing together seeing through their eyes and recognizing that this is their truth, we are now more able to truly understand their feelings, how they got to this moment.

And this brings us to step four, which is where validation happens. It's where we connect with them and communicate our understanding, so that as you say, they feel seen and heard.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. I love those steps. And that first step of seeing how the other person sees it is so critical. And it's the hardest, I think, because we tend to think people see and experience the world in the same way that we do, and it takes a pause and some intention to instead view the situation through their eyes. We may not understand why someone is reacting the way that they are. Because maybe we don't see it as a big deal at all, but trusting that it absolutely is a big deal to them, and being there to hear and reflect that can quickly dissipate any kind of charge energy that you're experiencing. And then they don't need to get louder and louder to convince us. And we are open and we're listening.

When we're validating, it can sometimes be helpful to offer words that dig down a bit deeper. For example, angry behavior is often an expression of another emotion. It could be frustration or hurt or loneliness. Digging into that can help the person move forward, and often we can uncover that underlying emotion. When we do that, it can remove any kind of block. And when you hit on the correct emotion, it really helps the person feel understood. And that alone can dissipate the anger. And then you're able to move towards some kind of resolution or even a conversation to understand more. That really isn't possible until the person feels heard.

And so, this is often the place arguments start or ruptures begin. That attack, defend, get louder, withdraw, repeat, come back, and just we keep going, going, going. We can start with something simple instead, "I can hear how frustrated you are and I really do want to understand," there may be some more loud communication, but you'll start to see more about what's actually bothering them.

And then you can affirm like, "That makes sense. That is frustrating. I understand." And, "That makes sense," is an honest communication in that moment, even if it wouldn't feel the same to you, because you can see that it makes sense to them.

And this is not the time to be defensive. So, if it's coming at you directly, this is the time to lean in and try to understand. There will be time later to share your experience of the situation if that's appropriate. Creating space and letting the big emotions just wash over you, tuning in and recognizing the struggle of the person in front of you, can soften you and then you're in a position to genuinely say, "I want to understand," and start reflecting back what you're seeing.

PAM: Oh, yes, yes, yes. It can be so helpful to note too that reflecting back what we're seeing doesn't always mean repeating what they're saying. Reflecting back the actual emotion they're feeling versus the one they may be expressing can not only help them feel understood, it can help them better understand themselves.

So, another thing that's important when it comes to validation is not having an agenda. We can't, we really can't. Validation is all about supporting the other person while an agenda is about us. So, that means no agenda around their process for moving through their emotions and no agenda around how quickly they move through that process.

if we're harboring an underlying agenda, while we might be saying words that we think are validating, like, I can see you're upset, our underlying energy, maybe even the cadence of our words, is more likely to be communicating something more judgmental and maybe condescending. Like, that's such a small thing. Just get over it already. You can do that with tone.

So, for me, noticing that I have an agenda in mind, an end goal on the horizon is a clue that I need to dig a bit deeper. Even if I've done the work to understand the situation and circumstances, made the shift to empathy and seeing through their eyes, I'm still gazing to the future through my own eyes.

Now again, that doesn't make me wrong, for me. Maybe I, as the unique butterfly I am, would have moved through it by now and beyond to something else. But again, this moment isn't about me, is it? Absolutely not. Sometimes I found it helpful to remind myself that I don't know how this will unfold for them, that I don't know how long it may take.

Repeating this to myself a few times can just help me release my expectations, my agenda, and return to this moment with curiosity and love. I begin to wonder, hmm, how will this unfold? How might I help them feel loved and supported in this really hard moment for them?

ANNA: Right, because agendas can be so sneaky, right? They're just right there and they definitely take us out of the moment that's in front of us, and pretty much every person, no matter the age or relationship to us, will pick up on it. And it just creates more disconnection and keeps us stuck in that place of them feeling like they need to express themselves dramatically and us trying to figure out what's going on.

And like you said, it is so unique to each person and it's also so contextual. Something that typically would roll right past our partner can create a huge reaction when they are hungry or tired or overwhelmed with outside stressors. Even more reason to not make it about us and to offer empathy.

Often, we don't know the context, but just reminding ourselves that there is one can bring our energy down and help us connect with the upset of the person in front of us.

Being intentional about language can help so much, too. Using "I" statements and avoiding "you are" statements helps us have clear communication. We can only know for ourselves. With our closest relationships, we can work together to use "I" statements, and it just makes such a world of difference. You are attacking me versus I'm feeling attacked and I need a minute, holds a very different energy and can elicit a very different response than the other person.

And I like to remind myself that no one can make us feel anything. Only we have control over our feelings and actions. So, something happens, we have a feeling about it, and we take an action. The thing we can't control is the thing that happened. Often that's out of our control. From there, we get to decide though how we feel, and we may run through some feelings. We may have all different kinds of feelings at first, but giving some space and observing and then acknowledging them and not getting stuck there puts us in a better position to take action that's in alignment with the person we want to be. So, it's not that having feelings is bad or that there's any particular bad feeling. We want to acknowledge all the feelings as they come up, but understanding that we don't have to get stuck on the first feeling that comes up can just be really empowering.

And so, your partner could be coming at you with some angry energy about something you did or didn't do, and you may be feeling attacked or hurt or defensive, but you can acknowledge and breathe through those feelings and move to a place of validation.

So, it might look like, okay, I understand why that's super frustrating. You thought I was going to get the car fixed today and I didn't get it done. And so, now we're in this pinch needing the car. Keep validating until they're able to move through their initial flush of emotions, and then you can both move to solving it together.

What do we want to do now that we're in the pinch and the car isn't ready? Together, you can figure out the next steps. But if you start defending, oh, but this happened, but that, but this, but that. Then they're going to up the volume until they feel like they're heard and that we understand how frustrated they are. And you don't get to that stage of finding a solution together. Instead, now you have a rupture and, and not only do you have the initial problem, now you have this rupture to heal and solving the problem is so much harder when you're not on the same page like that.

Because the thing is, we all make mistakes. We miss the mark sometimes, and that's okay. Validation is just a great first step in understanding one another and moving back to the place of connection. And sometimes the big expression will actually have nothing to do with you, and it's still a time for validation. And perhaps it's easier in those situations to just give them as much time or space and validation around their experience and emotion. Again, without that agenda that we're going to move through it quickly or at any kind of pace that are determining, but with a genuine desire to connect and understand what's happening for them.

PAM: Yeah. For me, that's what I need to get myself back to and remind myself of that genuine desire to connect and understand.

At the top of the episode, I spoke of validation as an art, and that's because I don't see it as a science, as a repeatable process. Of course, there are some principles involved that will consistently help us. That's what we've been talking about. Talking about seeing things through the other person's eyes, shifting from sympathy to empathy.

But beyond that, whenever the opportunity to validate someone arises our choice of words and actions in the moment need to weave together with our understanding of the person involved and the circumstances of this particular situation and the moment. So, to me, it kind of feels like an art. And when it doesn't feel rote, doesn't feel like a script of things we're supposed to repeat every time, that also helps a person feel seen and heard in the moment. Because, that moment really is unique to them, right? It can be disconnecting if we say exactly the same thing, it's like, you're not seeing me. Right?

ANNA: Because we're not present. We're not present in that moment when that's happening. And again, people pick up on those type of things, that agenda that you're not really hearing me and then there we have the divide that we have to figure out how to cross.

PAM: Exactly. Exactly. So, here are some questions to ponder this week around the idea of validation. So, number one, do you feel the difference between sympathy and empathy? I use the word feel instead of think, because we want to focus in on our body. Embodying ourselves in the moment.

Think back to a challenging time you experienced and how others engaged with you. Did you feel the difference between sympathetic and empathetic responses?

Number two, over the next couple of weeks, practice seeing moments through the eyes of your partner or a good friend or your child, not just ones where they're upset, but also ones where they're excited or happy. Can you see why they are expressing that emotion in that moment? If you put yourself in their shoes, would you feel the same emotion? I'm just excited for people to play with those questions. Just because it really helps, I think, to separate and to understand how people are different.

ANNA: Anytime we can get to more understanding about how different we are and how different we see and experience the world, it just opens up this space for understanding.

PAM: It really does. It really does. Okay, number three, do you find it hard to release your agenda around how someone else moves through their challenges and emotions? Try some different mantras or self-talk and see what helps you transition from seeing the path to your expected outcome, to being curious about and supportive of their path to their outcome.

And lastly, what feels good and validating to you when you're experiencing a challenging situation? How about letting your partner or friend know, and ask them to try that with you next time you're frustrated or upset about something and see how that feels? What difference does that make?

ANNA: Yes, because again, we're all so different and what feels good and validating will be different for each of us. So, open up these conversations, play with it, talk to the people in your life, and I think it'll be really interesting.

PAM: Oh, I think so. I'm very excited. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.

ANNA: Bye.

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about behaviors. A lot of mainstream parenting advice focuses on children's behavior and the best ways to stop unwanted behaviors and increase desired ones. What that approach fails to acknowledge is that behaviors are always an expression of underlying needs. And without digging in to understand those needs, very often, the problem remains. By getting curious and figuring out our loved ones' true needs, we can solve problems together and strengthen our connection at the same time.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

1. This week, notice your own behaviors and take a moment to contemplate the underlying need you’re trying to address. Often we act or react the same way over and over without thinking because it’s become a habit. Let’s bring some intentionality back in by considering the need at play.

2. Next week, with some more self-awareness under our belt, try narrating a choice or two a day, including the need you’re taking care of, to your child/ren. Just a sentence or two, lightly, with no expectation of a response.

3. Think of a behavior from your child/ren that is rubbing for you and list out some possible underlying needs they might be trying to satisfy. Use that lens the next time it happens and see what you learn. Did one of those possible needs make more sense?

4. Thinking back over the last week or two, has something happened at home that impacted your child/ren’s behavior? This can just help you bring awareness to context and not focus only on behaviors and their impact.

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can be challenging, because we're all so different. On the Living Joyfully Podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, and so much more.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes.

We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows. You can learn more about all that we're doing at LivingJoyfully.ca.

Today's episode is part of the parenting series, and we're going to be looking at behaviors. Much of conventional parenting advice is centered around changing behaviors. That's usually attempted through punishments or rewards, which are really just two sides of the same coin of control. What's missing is an understanding of what the behaviors are telling us.

Behaviors are at the surface. They are the clue to what's going on at a deeper level. When we focus our attention on that surface-level behavior, we're missing what's really happening for the child or person involved, and it's frustrating and usually fruitless practice to try to manipulate behavior without understanding the why behind it. This is especially true if you want to have a healthy, connected relationship with the person. It's true that we can change behavior through coercion and bribes, but often at the expense of our connection and our understanding of one another.

PAM: Yeah, definitely behaviors stem from something. We have reasons for the things we do, as do the other adults in our life. And the same goals for children. They are people, too. Whether or not they can explain why they did something is different. Sometimes adults can't explain their reasoning either. But yes, the behaviors are clues to what's going on at a deeper level.

ANNA: Right. It's important to understand that behaviors are outward expressions of needs. We do things in order to meet our needs. We make food when we're hungry. We may call a friend when we're upset. We may stomp through the house when we're mad to get some energy out. Those things we do are behaviors. When we understand that behind every behavior is a need, we start to see that the behaviors are a clue, just a piece of the puzzle.

If we want to understand the person in front of us, we want to understand the need driving the behavior. If the behavior happens to be undesirable, for whatever reason, the most lasting way to get rid of it is to meet that need. And while we're focusing on parenting and children in this episode, it's really the same for every relationship.

When we think of behavior as a clue, it changes the energy around difficult exchanges. We're bringing an open, curious mindset to the situation to solve the puzzle. What's driving this behavior that's causing problems? Problem behaviors can range from fighting with a sibling to not brushing their teeth.

Turning first to HALT gives us a quick check-in about needs that often drive behaviors, and we've talked about it before, but just a quick reminder is to see if the person is hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. These are contextual things that impact behavior and meeting the need will stop that behavior quickly.

The thing is, kids want to fit into a family system. It's biological, because it's needed for survival, but things can get in the way. Things that they may not be able to articulate, and that's what we want to help them discover. What's driving a particular behavior? Not only so we can eliminate the behavior that might be causing disconnection or even harm, but so that they can start to learn about how to recognize the need themselves and choose ways to get that need met that actually help them stay connected, which furthers the goal for them.

And I would say HALT is probably at play with like 75% of issues. But there can be so many other things, too. A tough day at school, a mistake made earlier that they keep replaying, worrying about something in the future, stress in the family, worrying about things that are happening in the world.

Needs can range from things like needing certainty, needing to feel safe, needing to feel connected, needing to process, needing to be alone, needing to be heard, and on and on.

There isn't a formula, but the better you know one another, and as trust is built, the easier it will be to uncover the needs through inquiry and conversation, keeping in mind that these are not like long sit-down conversations, but gentle inquiry with the energy that you want to help and understand. Even just saying, "I'm here, I want to understand," can go a long way. Remembering there is always an underlying need, and that's where we find the solutions to address any behavior we're seeing.

PAM: Yes. It is really helpful to remember that exploring behaviors to uncover needs is a process. It's often not solved in a one and done, long, drawn-out conversation. I love that phrase you used, gentle inquiry.

So, maybe in one passing conversation we validate their frustration, how their action or reaction was their best choice in that moment. We love them. Maybe another time we share an observation like, it was the end of a long day and a few things had already gone sideways. Maybe next time we won't try to do another thing. And each time we can leave space for them to continue the conversation or to move on. And we can pay extra attention to any time they approach us, maybe wanting to talk about what happened. We want them to feel our support of their processing, whatever it looks like. And in the meantime, we can be doing our own processing as well.

ANNA: Exactly. Whenever we're reacting to a behavior, it is a very good time to take a look at what's being triggered in us, because ultimately our reaction is our responsibility. Nobody is making us feel a certain way. We are responsible for how we feel. And that is a whole other episode that we'll get into because it's really an important nuance.

But when we're seeing a disturbing behavior or behavior we don't understand, it's so helpful to look at the context. Our first inclination is to look at the person, what's wrong with them? Why are they being so difficult or mean? Why are they doing this thing? But so often, context is playing a role. How was their day? Did something happen at school? Is there something going on with friends? Are they worried about something that's coming up? Starting from a place of curiosity and assuming positive intent allows us to look beyond an offending behavior to see the person in front of us, a person who might be hurting or in need of help. And understanding the context helps us not to go to that place of condemning the person or the relationship, and it helps our children learn to understand and articulate how something is impacting them instead of just lashing out. They can start to give words to what they're feeling.

And it's really helpful if we start using the language of context in our days. And I like to call it narrating. It's things like, it was such a long day today, I did not eat enough. And I can tell already I'm feeling snappy. I'm exhausted and I can tell I might lose my temper if I don't go to bed soon.

Narrating what's going on for us does a couple of things. So, it helps those around us to know that our foul mood isn't about them, and it helps model for our children how to understand context and communicate about it and the impact of it with the people around them.

Our job then becomes to listen when they communicate to us, when they tell us that they're too tired to do something or they've had a tough day, listen, and give them space or an extra cuddle or a listening ear. While we don't always understand why someone feels the way that they do, we want to trust in their knowledge and honor it. And again, it goes so far to helping build our connection and our understanding.

PAM: Yes. Just to help them feel seen and heard in that moment. Because yeah, the underlying need is just more context that we can gain for that behavior in question.

When we judge the behavior as bad, we send the message that we don't love them when they behave that way. So, they're feeling misunderstood. They're feeling unloved for who they are, and they're feeling alone, most likely. Because when we keep the conversation focused on the behavior, we miss the opportunity to help them process what happened, to maybe uncover the underlying need, or at least just get a little bit closer. It may take a while to find the route and then more time to find other ways to meet the need. Again, it's a process.

And I definitely found sharing my own processing to be helpful, not in that big sit-down conversation way. But in sharing bits and pieces here and there, as in your great narrating examples. It definitely helps them see that my behaviors are about me, not about them, and also about how I process things. Not with the expectation that they process the same way. What it's communicating is that processing has value. It helps us understand ourselves and each other a bit better. It helps us move through the more challenging times, a bit more gracefully, with a little bit less damage to our connection. And that having hard times isn't just a kid thing. Adults have them, too. It's a human thing.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. It's kind of strange, actually, how we seem to have this expectation that kids are going to always act with intention and make choices that we deem as right when so often, as adults we do not. So, it is an interesting kind of double standard to keep an eye out for.

Sometimes the issue is a behavior that isn't happening. So, teeth not being brushed, homework not being done, plates not being brought back to the kitchen. When we're facing a behavior that isn't happening, it, it helps to ask what's making it hard. Again, bringing an open, curious mindset means we're open to hearing about their experience, and that helps us find solutions together. Because it's under the behavior or lack of that we gain a better understanding and find the solutions. Adjusting at that surface level really can only happen through rewards or punishment, and you not only impact the relationship, but you're much less likely to have a plan that sticks, because you haven't identified or addressed the needs or the barriers at all.

And so, I remember reading this story from a popular psychologist who's a fan of gentle approach to parenting. And the question that was posed to her was, my child refuses to turn off the light, and I feel like it's a waste of energy and money, but nothing I'm saying is working. So, the advice of the psychologist was to remove the light bulb. And then she went on to explain that the solution worked because the child became scared and then learned her lesson.

I think this is a really great example of where we can peel back and look at what it would look like to explore the underlying needs instead. So, if we don't get anywhere from asking a child specifically about a behavior or to stop doing it, I want to start looking more closely and watch for clues. It could be something where she simply forgets. If that's the case, well, we could work on figuring out a reminder together. Maybe a sign on the door would be enough. It could be that the light is hard to reach. She's leaving the room and books in her arms, and she can't reach the light. So, maybe rigging a string to the light or push button light might solve it.

What's interesting in this case is that we were given the additional information that she was scared and that's why she quote "learned." So, knowing that she was scared, I would really want to explore that piece with her. Hey, do you feel safer with the light on? Is it that you don't like entering a dark room?

I don't always love entering a dark room. A question along those lines can serve two purposes. It helps me get to the bottom of the behavior, but it also connects me with the child. She knows I'm interested in what her experience is, and then I can learn how she's seeing the world and what her perception of the situation is, and I can gain a better understanding of how our perceptions may differ.

And at that point, we can look at, what about a nightlight that comes on automatically when the room gets dark or switch to LED-type lights that don't cost very much and meet my need for energy efficiency and meet her need for a light. And in the end, I might just say, you know what? Those few pennies a day to leave the light on, I'm okay with that for my child to feel safe.

And I think what's key with any kind of conflict is to move beyond the surface. With this example, we have one person who wants the light on, one person who wants the light off. Those seem like diametrically-opposed views, but if we peel back and say, okay, but what's happening underneath of that? Then we can find solutions that feel good to both parties and that actually meet both of their needs, even though that solution was not the solution that worked, the turn it off or leave it on.

And that's what I love about looking beyond the behavior to the underlying needs, because I think so often, we feel like we're faced with these situations that seem completely unsolvable. How are we ever going to bridge this gap? But when we start looking at the needs that are driving the behaviors, we can usually find, oh yeah, what about this? What about that? Oh yeah, that would work. It opens up this creativity piece that just is a game changer.

PAM: Yes, because it's that creative piece that I love so much now. When we have two or more needs that are at first pointing in different directions, what are other possibilities? And I just love your light example. What if I don't want to scare my child into doing what I want them to do?

And, as you were talking about that, it reminded me of the general parenting conversations around the idea of natural consequences. Sometimes parents seem to be setting up their kids for what they call natural consequences, almost wanting things to go wrong.

It just feels like another guise for punishment to teach them a lesson. But there really are so many other possibilities. And we don't need to first find the right answer and then implement it. Each time we try something, we learn a little bit more through the experience. So, how did it go? Did it work for you? Did it work for me? What felt a bit off? Knowing what we know now, how might we tweak it?

So, maybe at first it's like, oh yeah, I just forget to turn off the light. So, we put up the sign and it's still happening. Oh. So, maybe it's not just forgetfulness. And then we can dig a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper, and we try different things. And then eventually we really do get to that fear piece because subconsciously not wanting to turn it off doesn't bring to mind to remember to do it right. So, you can absolutely see how, at first we can think it's just a forgetfulness thing. But really once we get underneath and find what that root need is, it's a whole different set of possible solutions that can come up for us. Again, it is a process. I think that's a really big takeaway.

ANNA: It really is. It's a process and one that I would say is so much more enjoyable than this kind of bickering and power play business. Because again, there's just such a different energy about, hey, let's try this, or, this isn't feeling good to me, so let's try these things. And yeah, okay, that worked, but that part didn't. It becomes this exchange we're having with the person in our life to get to a place where we both feel good.

And I mean, that's just such a different energy than this punishment and reward and anger and bickering. And so, I would much rather spend my time working with my child than arguing. And that goes really for anybody. That's the happy, connecting work and it's just the energy that I want to cultivate in my home and in my life and with the people in my life.

PAM: I know! Because the people in my family, they're the ones I want to feel like we're a team together trying to figure things out, not at odds with each other. It doesn't mean, again, that we don't argue, that behaviors and things don't happen that feel disconnecting or are hard for us. Yet, we can still bring that energy of figuring it out together. It doesn't need to come to a head as a conflict where one needs to be right and one needs to be wrong. Or, as a parent, I need to have power over my child and tell them to do my answer, because I think it's right and it's right because it would be the right answer for me. And our kids are different. And our kids are people. And what the underlying need for them that they are trying to meet is important and is valuable.

And when we come at it with that energy of being a team and figuring it out together, oh my gosh. It changes the energy of the home. It increases connection, cultivates that connection that we want to have with them. And they learn so much more about themselves. And that's something that will last them their whole lifetime. 

ANNA: Yeah. It's really true. And it is so important to remember that what solution makes sense to us may not make sense to our child or to our spouse, or to our friend. We're all different. We're going to keep saying it. And it's not that our idea's wrong. It's the right answer for us and it's okay to present it and let's have it as a conversation piece, but always remembering that it may or may not resonate with the person in front of us. And if I want to learn and be connected to this person, I want to give space to understand where they're coming from. So important to remember that.

Okay, so here are some quick questions and ideas to think about this week. So, this week, notice your own behaviors and take a moment to contemplate the underlying need that you're trying to address. Often we act or react in the same way over and over again without thinking about it because it's kind of become a habit. So, just bringing some intentionality back to considering the need at play, I think, can just be a really helpful process, because like, hey, what am I trying to meet with this need of this behavior that maybe even a behavior that I do all the time? So, I think that could bring that intentionality.

PAM: Yeah. I do think it's a lot easier to start with us, because we're making the choices, we're doing our things and we're behaving in the ways that are working for us. But I do find it so interesting to start with things that maybe have become a habit for us. Because they were a habit back when, when that was maybe the best way for us to meet that need, but to take a little bit of time to remember, because once we have the habit and the action, we do that without thinking pretty much. That's kind of the definition of a habit. So, when we can take a moment to think, so why am I doing it that way? And going back to the underlying need, we may find that there is a new way or a different way to address it that makes more sense for us now. So, even if we don't extend it anywhere else, it can be helpful.

ANNA: And it's going to help you communicate about it, too. So, if someone doesn't understand that behavior and you figure out what the need is, that's much easier to communicate to someone else than a behavior maybe they don't understand.

Okay. So, number two, next week with some more self-awareness under our belt, try narrating a choice or two a day, including the need that you're taking care of, to your children. Give a sentence or two lightly, no expectation of a response from them. None of that, but just start to narrate a little bit more about your day and why you're feeling a certain way or why you're doing something and just see how that feels and how it lands and how that can definitely smooth things. It just helps people understand where we're coming from or what's going on for us.

PAM: It made such a big difference for me, because I just always imagined people were reading my mind or everybody felt the same way. So, there's this reason why I'm doing this thing, why would anybody else wonder about it?

ANNA: That's a big thing. I think we get told like, well, nobody can read your mind, but we really do think that people think the same way that we do. And so, of course they would make the same exact decision. No, they will not. Oh my goodness.

Okay, so three, think of a behavior from your children that is rubbing for you. List out some possible underlying needs that they might be trying to satisfy with these behaviors. Use that lens the next time it happens and see what you learn. See how that fits. Did one of those possible needs make more sense? Did it help you understand why the behavior was happening? And so, I think that will be very interesting.

And lastly, number four, thinking back over the last week or two, has something happened at home that impacted your child's behavior? This can help you bring awareness to the context, to not focus only on the behaviors and their impact. And so, with this question, what we're asking again is just, yeah, let's look at that broader context. And how could it have impacted the behavior of the child in front of you? And see how that feels to think about those pieces.

PAM: Yeah, I mean, for me, once I would think bigger picture context for just regular every day behaviors of things going wrong. I really found that often I had more compassion or more empathy for the other person, child or adult, when I realized that we've been really busy these last couple of weeks. I've been having to wake them up in the morning to go do the things or to get ready for school or whatever it is. And maybe we discover it through HALT, if we're looking at it that way. Or maybe we're just looking at the bigger picture in general. But it's amazing how much that context influences behavior.

ANNA: I think if anytime we feel that little tweak of a behavior that happens, can we just do a quick like, oh yeah, they had a lot of tests at school this week, or they had that big tournament over the weekend, or they didn't sleep well last night. Or they're worried about their grandmother or their whatever. Just that quick moment to think, you know what? There are some things that could be impacting why they're a little snippier, why I'm a little snippier, why we're all feeling that way.

And again, then we can narrate and bring those things out into the open and we can say for ourselves, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night and I'm feeling really tired. Or I was worried about your grandmother, because I know she was having this whatever. And we can start having those conversations, which then just opens us up for that compassion for one another, for that greater understanding.

PAM: And from there, just as we finish up, let's plant that seed of capacity, just as you were talking about it right there. Our children have capacity. And when all their things are going on around them or other stresses, they have less and less capacity. That was a big a-ha moment for me with my kids, too, and their behaviors was that something sets them off which would not have set them off yesterday or a week ago or a month ago. And all of a sudden I'm like, what the heck? Why is that bothering them? Why is that setting them off? But recognizing that there were a number of other things that went wrong during the day up to that point. And that they had basically just lost their capacity to absorb something else going sideways this day or this week. So, capacity applies to children just as much as it does adults.

ANNA: It does! And how that energy and how bringing that compassion, how that person feels heard, how that child feels loved and understood and how it keeps us moving towards having a calmer home, a more comfortable environment. And anyway, okay, I'm going to stop. But there's so many things here. Obviously, we keep talking about it. So, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.

We're back with another episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about a helpful mantra, No Set Outcome. When we find ourselves in conflict with someone in our lives, it can be natural to enter the conversation with our solution and our needs top of mind. From there, we try to convince them and win. But when we come into conversation with that agenda, we can get caught in a back and forth conflict. Instead, what if we release our agenda before we start talking? What if we stay open and curious, with no set outcome in mind. From there, we can figure out a path forward that works for everyone and considers everyone's needs.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. What comes up for you when you contemplate the idea of going into a conflict-related conversation with no set outcome?

2. Does it make sense to you that the bigger picture context of the conflict can contain helpful information for finding a path forward that works for everyone? Why? Why not?

3. What blocks or fears do you find rising up?

4. This isn’t a “now you have to do this forever” kind of thing. The next few times conflict arises, no matter how small, can you try going in with trust and curiosity instead of an agenda? Just play with it and see what happens. But not halfheartedly, you won’t learn much that way.

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! Navigating relationships can be challenging, because people are so different. In this podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, all the big Cs, and so many more.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to listen to our foundation series, which is specifically the first 14 episodes until we think of some more. But in them, we talk about our favorite fundamental relationship ideas and tools. If you hear us mentioning a concept over and over, chances are it has its own episode in the foundation series that you can check out to learn more.

So, this episode is part of our Conflict series and our miniseries inside that about developing self-awareness. Today, we're diving into the idea of No Set Outcomes, and this can be confronting it first. I mean, what do you mean go into a conflict-infused conversation without an answer or a solution in mind? What, why? This can be particularly challenging for internal processors, like me, because we often like to do our own thinking ahead of time before we have conversations about ways to move forward.

Yet the challenge is that when we have a solution in mind, we often come to the conversation with an agenda and a different energy. We may not even recognize it at first, but once we bring this self-awareness lens to things, we can start to see it.

Interestingly, it's often easier to recognize it when we're on the receiving end. So, do you recall a time when a partner or a friend came into a conversation with an agenda in mind? Just think about that for a moment. Often you can sense it in their body language, in their tone of voice, and in the words they choose, which are often a bit more presumptuous and maybe belittling is how they can feel. They tend to try to dominate the conversation, trying to convince us that their perspective and solution is the right one. When that happens, we can feel like our perspective isn't being heard or respected, like we're being bullied into accepting their solution. We can worry that they'll think less of us if we don't agree, and it just doesn't feel good.

So, now let's take a moment to flip that. How does the other person feel when we are quite sure that we have the right solution? When we come to the conversation with our agenda, thinking, my goodness, if only we could explain it the right way, they, too, could see that we're right. When someone comes into a conversation with that agenda, we just can quickly get stuck, caught in that back and forth of trying to convince each other that our solution is the right one. Conflict, one person is right and the other is wrong, which means that in the end there's a winner and a loser, and none of that helps maintain a connected and supportive relationship.

Instead, what if we release our agenda before we start talking? What if we come into the conversation with the energy of being on the same team and trying to figure out a path forward that works for everyone, something that considers both our needs and goals and theirs.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. It's such an important shift. And it isn't always easy. In the Be Kind, Not Right episode, I talked about making the shift from needing to prove that we're right to choosing kindness, which helps us to get to that place of curiosity and openness. We don't have to let go of the idea that we're right or that we think we have a good solution. But we can choose to be kind and give some space and hear the person in front of us. And finding whatever tools we can that will help us release the urgency of our agenda, I think, is key.

Another one that we've talked about is that there's plenty of time and there's this feeling in our body when we're bringing a sense of urgency to a conversation. When we feel that we must convince them that we're right and that this thing needs to change right now in this particular way.

It's such a different energy when we can switch to curiosity and trust in our ability to solve problems, because whatever is happening, it isn't feeling good for one or both of us, but there's so many possible solutions. We don't want to get fixated on ours. We want to remain open to finding one that feels good for both of us, and that is truly fostered by slowing things down, being more open, and leaving space for that. And it's such a different energy and it feels so much better to move towards a solution that way.

PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And notice that not bringing an agenda into the conversation doesn't mean not thinking about the possibilities beforehand. We want to get curious. It can be really helpful to spend some time considering our needs and goals as they relate to the conflict at hand before getting into deep conversations. That's part of the self-awareness that we're talking about in this miniseries of episodes. Not only will we learn more about ourselves, we'll likely be able to more effectively communicate that information to the other person involved.

So, we can also get curious about the bigger picture context of the conflict, too. So, from the environment, has a similar conflict happened before? Is there a pattern to it? Does there seem to be a consistent trigger and so on. To the needs and goals of everyone that's involved, are there conflicting underlying needs that need to be resolved? To the current circumstances of each person that's involved right now, and this can call back to our previous self-awareness episodes around triggers and HALT.

So, the more we explore, the more little bits of information we have floating around in our minds that we can connect in creative and fun ways to navigate through the conflict or the challenge that work for everyone involved.

But to be able to recognize these many other possibilities, I do first need to let go of any outcome I have in mind when I go into the conversation. It's great to have all these possibilities. But if I don't let go of what seems to be the best one to me, I end up just picking out the pieces of our conversations that fit that particular path and just ignoring the rest, letting them go in one ear and out the other, because I'm going to use what they say as ammunition to show them or convince them why the path that I have in mind is best. But when I can release that agenda, that set outcome, and not bring that with me into the conversation, just having thought through things from my own perspective of possibilities and my needs, that just brings so much more when we can work together as a team, because there really is no one right way through a conflict. 

ANNA: Right. And so, I want to reiterate the point that you just said, because it's so important, which is that if we're going into a conflict or conversation with a set outcome, it really tunnels our vision. We are looking for anything to affirm our position to the exclusion of all other positions. And we're missing solutions or paths that could move us smoothly through the disagreement.

And because I often like to think of things in terms of efficiency, while it seems like barreling towards my solution is the fastest way, it isn't. Because it most likely will cause defensiveness. It can create difficult and sometimes painful back and forth. I leave the person not feeling heard or understood, which we've talked about how damaging that is for connection. The easiest, most pleasant, and most efficient way is to be open to all of the possibilities. It does take a little bit more time, but it's so worth it.

And I think the self-awareness piece is so critical, because as we tune in to what our actual need is, we can then begin to communicate it to our partner or friend in a non-threatening way. We aren't communicating the solution, we're communicating the need. And no one can really argue with our need. The need is something we can solve for. Just presenting our solution doesn't leave space for the other person to have their own needs or to really have any kind of feedback. But when we're focused on addressing needs, we can take everyone's needs into account and find a solution. It feels much less threatening and all sides can have their say to get their needs met.

PAM: Absolutely. Yes. Communicating needs, not solutions. It's just one level underneath. And as you mentioned, taking the time to gain some self-awareness around the conflict often helps us more effectively communicate those needs. We may also discover some blocks that we'll need to explore. What's getting in our way? What are we holding onto so tightly that we feel stuck, that this is the only way? That this is the one right way? It's curious, because we can get there. We can get there. Like, I would not be happy with any other answer. Like, it's okay to feel that way. We feel that way. But it is also a great clue that, oh, I think there are some blocks there. There's something there that we want to play with.

But I think what's really helpful, too, is not assuming that exploring those blocks is all about getting rid of them. Because then we can resist that, as well. Maybe we discover an underlying need, and rather than tossing that block, now we're better able to just describe the need. Now, we understand better why we're feeling so resistant, which then can open up the door to more possibilities for meeting it. When we're feeling stuck with the block, it can be because we can only see that one way forward. But when we understand that underlying need, things can definitely feel less constrictive.

So, for example, maybe we find that fear is blocking us. That can definitely be helpful to dig into. So, is it a fear of being wrong? Is it of being judged by others? Is it worry that there will be negative consequences from different paths forward? Is it fear of losing face or losing power in the relationship?

Where does that fear stem from and is it true? Does it make sense? And depending on how we prefer to process things, maybe these blocks are something we explore on our own and share what we discover. Or maybe they're part of the conversations we have with a trusted person. Even if that's the person we're navigating the conflict with, it can be helpful for them to see what it's bringing up for us.

ANNA: Right. And I think as we dig into that and because that's a vulnerable place sometimes to share, this is feeling scary to me or this is what it's feeling like, but you can almost feel how it softens things. Because if I'm kind of coming at someone with like, I don't like this, this needs to change, blah, blah, blah, that can put somebody on the defensive.

But it's like, as soon as I'm able to say, okay, I've got a lot of intensity about this because this is feeling scary to me, it's like, whew, we can soften and they can go like, okay, I don't want you to feel afraid of this or worried about this. And so yeah, let's figure out something that feels better.

And I do agree also that this whole process is going to be influenced by how each of us process things. And so, there's room for all types of processing, back to remembering not to take another person's suchness personally. So, if someone needs to step away and internally process what's happening, give space for that. That's not that they're disengaging from you or that that should be a problem. It's like, hey, they need that time to come back and maybe to just calm down and figure out what those underlying needs are. And I think it can be the same if the person's like, I just really want to hash this out. Know that that's what they need and we don't have to take that personally. They're just needing that intensity and that back and forth.

And it really helps in all of our relationships to be able to communicate about our needs. So, if you need to take that time to understand and to step back from the triggers, take that time. Ask for it. And if your friend or partner asks you for it, kindly give it to them, because we want to come to these conversations with our best information, not from a reactive place. So, we need to trust in each other when we ask for those things.

Learning about how you process is so important. If you like to hash things out, make sure that feels okay to the other person involved. Make sure that they've had the time they need to come ready to be open and curious, to have that type of discussion. The more narration, the more information we can give each other just really changes the tone of these conflict situations.

And you can see so much of this is helped by slowing things down. I'll talk about this a lot because you can feel, I get a lot of excited energy going on. Slow it down and drop that sense of urgency. Yes, we're having an issue. We aren't in agreement. And that can send us into this urgent feeling mode. But in slowing things down, we allow space to gain that deeper understanding of each other, of our needs, and we can start to see that there are options for how to move through this that feel so much better.

And, for me, it's that grounding in the trust that we can work it out, that we're going to take the time to understand. We're going to communicate. And it relaxes everyone involved, because I think again, those fear can pieces can come into play. Like, we're having a conflict. Is this going to end the relationship? What's going to happen? But if we can just ground back into that trust, we can slow this down, we can have a hard conversation, and we can find solutions that feel better.

PAM: Yeah, I mean, just imagine that energy. It is so easy when a conflict comes up, as you said, to feel that sense of urgency. Oh my gosh, something's wrong. We need to fix it. And that just brings a whole other layer of tunnel vision. How can you be open and curious and be able to listen intently to other people's needs and, especially if something comes up more quickly, like, oh my gosh, you need a bit of time to just process and see what my needs are underneath that. Or we can slap a Band-Aid on it, but it's going to come up again and it's going to come up again and again because we haven't gotten to those underlying needs. I mean, that has been my experience and it's just been so helpful to give it that time and space.

So often, conflicts, they're not urgent. They're not emergencies. Even though we can feel that. We can reach to our tools just to help us calm down and just even help each other feel seen and heard, like, oh my gosh, yes. We have different views about this thing. Let's figure that out. And then understanding how the other person processes things. People are different. It is so very helpful just to have that context for navigating conflicts.

So, going into those conversations without that set outcome in mind, not having that agenda, that trust that you mentioned, that genuine trust that together we can find a way through that works for both of us. And as we gain more experience with it, it really is a beautiful process. We come to see that conflicts aren't bad. They're not negative. They're like human beings that see things differently. Now, of course, it doesn't mean that that's easy, right? But understanding that will serve everyone just in so many countless situations over the course of our lives. When we take the experience and the understanding of ways that we can open ourselves up, not come with that agenda, in so many other relationships in our lives, it helps us move through those as well.

ANNA: And just learn. It's just about the learning. If we can, when those opportunities come, instead of feeling that fear or worry about the relationship, be like, okay, we're going to learn something about each other right now because we're seeing this very differently. And that's, of course, back to open and curious, but it's such a wonderful shift and letting go of those outcomes is such a big piece of that.

PAM: Such a big piece.

Okay, so here are some questions to ponder this week around this idea. Number one, what comes up for you when you contemplate the idea of going into a conflict-related conversation with no set outcome? I mean, I think that's a big one right there to start with.

ANNA: Think about that. Right.

PAM: Number two, does it make sense to you that the bigger picture context of the conflict can contain helpful information for finding a path forward that works for everyone? So, what is your first answer to that and why or why not do you think the context is involved?

Number three, what blocks or fears do you find rising up when you start thinking about this idea?

And last, this isn't a, "now you have to do this forever" kind of thing. So, the next few times conflict arises, no matter how small, these ideas work. Can you try going in just with trust and curiosity instead of an agenda? Maybe it helps to just start small. Just play with it and see what happens.

But I would suggest not doing it half-heartedly, because you won't learn much that way. You're hedging your bets. It's like, ah, I'm going to play with this. I'm going to try. I'm going to not come in with an agenda. If I'm somebody who likes to process things first, I'm going to process things first.

I'm going to have all sorts of ideas, but then I am not going to go in attached to any of them. Those are just going to be things I can pull out as I learn more in conversation with the other person. 

ANNA: It's just so fun to play with the ideas, because again, I think that's where the learning is. We learn like, okay, yeah, I do this. I see that I do this. Because a lot of times we don't even realize we're doing that, because we're just thinking in our head, how do we get through this? And so, it makes sense. But yeah, just playing with this, observing a little bit, stepping back and seeing like, okay, I see how these patterns happen in the conflicts that we have. And it would be interesting to try to change that to see how that feels to all of us. So, yeah, I think it's a lot of fun to play around.

PAM: Yeah. Yeah. And back to your idea of being efficient, right? I think that can be something that we play with. Or we're just uncomfortable leaving that space for this conflict to just sit for a while or even just disagreement or even just seeing things in different ways. Just allowing that to sit and we start to get a little bit more comfortable knowing that we're all learning more as we move more slowly through the process. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.

ANNA: Take care.

We're back with another episode in our Relationships series and we are excited to revisit the importance of connection. Fostering connection in our different relationships will look different, because every person is different, but what remains the same is that connection is an active process. Just being married or just being a parent does not mean that we automatically feel connected to our loved ones. But really focusing on connection makes our relationships stronger and so much more enjoyable.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

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1. Take some time to think about what you love about your partner. What things light you up about them? How does it feel when you read this list? How does it change your energy towards them?

2. Think about the connection you had/have with your parents? Did you feel truly seen and accepted for who you are? If not, how did that impact your feeling of connection?

3. Have you viewed connection as a living process? What areas do you see that you would like to work on to improve your connection?

4. What ways do you stay connected with your friends? Consider asking what things help your friends feel connected to you. You might be surprised.

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can be challenging because we are all so different. In this podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, and so much more.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in our toolbox. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows. You can also check out our website, LivingJoyfully.ca, if you're interested in relationship coaching or to see what we offer businesses using these same principles.

Today's episode is part of our Relationship series, and we'll be talking about connection. Connection is a foundational lens through which I see the world. I think we're here to be in relationship and learn from that process. I think focusing on connection is what brings us the most joy and peace and opportunities for growth and learning as well.

Finding the best ways to foster connection can look a bit different in the different types of relationships. So, today we're going to look at the idea related to our relationships with our partners, our children, and our friends. Something that's common across the relationships is that connection is an active process. We don't have strong connections just because we're married, a parent, or a friend. That's the surface-level connection, but the connection we're going to talk about is much deeper than that, and the root of it is truly seeing another person for who they are - honoring that and supporting that.

With our partners, often many things brought us together, and as the relationship grows, the years go on and we fall into the rhythm of just moving through our days. And in that, sometimes we can lose sight of the person in front of us, of truly understanding who they are and what makes them tick. In the beginning, we're much more curious about all of that, and that curiosity and excitement is what feels so good, because they're feeling truly seen by us and we're feeling truly seen by them.

And so, if things are feeling off, this is most likely the root. We've lost sight of, and the excitement about, who this person we love is. Having a strong connection is what helps a relationship weather the storms that life is going to throw. And while it may not have all of the excitement of the early days, it can settle into this deep trust and knowing. And again, connection is so much about being seen and accepted.

And it's helpful to recognize, I think, that our culture tends to have a deficit focus, and if we fall into that in our relationships, it is a pretty quick path to disconnection. One of the first things I ask all my couples to do is to each write a list about what they love about the other person, to keep it on their phone or by their bedside, someplace they can read it every day, just steeping in that.

Seeing all of the amazing things about our partner, it changes the energy we bring to them and the situations we're facing together. Because that's the thing. When we have that foundation of trust and connection, we're able to handle what comes along together instead of turning to defensiveness or blaming.

We know we're different. We honor that and that we each bring something different, and from there we figure out how do we move through these harder times or this obstacle that's in front of us? Building connection with our partner is about seeing who they are now. And it may be different. We do all grow and change, but taking the time to see them and understand them is key. And finding ways to see each other will be different for each couple. It could be about having adventures together or working on projects together, just talking over a meal, being together and watching a show. It's going to be unique to each person, but understanding what helps your partner feel seen and loved and understood, and being able to communicate what helps you to feel the same, goes such a long way in creating this strong connection that we're talking about.

PAM: Yes. It really, really does. And I so much love your point, that connection is an active process, not something that's a given based on some factor, context, like, "We're married." "You're my child." Being in a long-term relationship with your partner absolutely does not guarantee that you're strongly connected with each other. That takes ongoing effort. And yes, I feel more deeply connected to my partner when they see and love me for who I am right now. Sometimes it's easier to take that perspective first. We both grow and change over the years, but when they're curious about what I'm up to, how I'm feeling and what I think about things, that's when I'm feeling more connected to them.

And that said, and that thing doesn't need to be all about conversations. There are people who just aren't into conversations as much, and as you mentioned, it can look different for different couples, because people truly are different. And then not only that, it can look different in different seasons for the same couple, because again, we grow and change, our shared interests wax and wane.

But what can remain a priority throughout is building and maintaining connection with our partner, however it looks right now. We can always be curious about who they are and what they like to do. We can always express appreciation for their presence in our lives. And then, like what you mentioned, Anna, the things that we love about them, no matter how big or how small, we can always notice and appreciate those pieces.

ANNA: Yeah. I mean, just turning our eye to seeing all the things they bring into our life can just really shift energy, especially if you're feeling stuck or disconnected or a little grumpy. And so, when we think about children, it's similar, but there are some differences. We have such a deep connection with our children, but part of maintaining that and bringing it to life for them is understanding that they are on their own path. They are unique human beings. And when we honor that and see them for who they are, that is when they feel the most connected to us.

We can probably all think of how it would feel to be truly seen by our parents. Some of us have experienced that and many have not. In some families, love is conditional. And it's really the opposite of true connection. The blood connection remains, but they're left feeling misunderstood or not seen. And I've come to think of tending to this deeper connection as building a bridge, a bridge whose foundation is trust. Trust that we are okay and safe where we are, but that a strong, sturdy bridge is there, that we can both traverse back and forth as needed. Us going to them, them coming to us, sometimes meeting in the middle. The bridge is built with time and understanding, honoring our differences and celebrating them for exactly who they are.

So often, I think when a parent wants to feel connected to a child, they will invite them to do something with them. "Hey, come over here to me. Let's go on a bike ride. Let's go camping. Come to the garden." And sometimes those invitations are met with excitement and sometimes groans and eye rolls, which can lead the parent feeling really disconnected or a little bit hurt, but the child's not rejecting you in those instances. They may not like those particular ideas. And when we understand them, what they love, what lights them up, what pressures they're under, we can go to them. We can meet them on their side of the bridge and fill both of our cups. And it means everything to have someone see us for who we are, to understand our capacity in that moment, to love us, even if we have different ideas and preferences. It just makes such a difference. 

PAM: I know! And I got goosebumps right now just thinking about that. And I really do love that bridge metaphor for connection in a relationship. The image that when it comes to connection, we can go to them, they can come to us, we can meet in the middle or anywhere in between. And that sometimes connecting can be happening when we're both hanging out on our own sides.

That can seem a bit counterintuitive, the idea of actively connecting with someone while not being engaged with them. Yet, as we talked about earlier, connecting with someone can be about them feeling seen and heard. So, if your child is needing some space to be by themselves, it can feel connecting to them when they see us actively cultivating that space for them. So, maybe keeping their siblings occupied so that they aren't constantly being interrupted, maybe bringing them a drink and a snack and slipping out without trying to start a conversation.

Can you just feel how validating and connecting that could be for them? Just turn it back on ourselves, how, when we're in that space where we want some alone time, how good that would feel. So, it's like, is that what we're needing? We would just feel so supported and seen and active connection will be built without that direct engagement with them.

So, the other piece that I wanted to mention is that the ways we connect, the ways we build that bridge, can be different for each child in the same family, will likely be different for each child in the same family. Because that could also be hard if we have a picture in our mind about what connecting with a child looks like. "I'm going to do this. I'm going to do it right. How do we do it?"

If we envision connection to look like doing activities together or hugging each other every day or reading books together or whatever that vision is, we can worry that we're not connected with a child if those happen to be things that they avoid, that they don't enjoy. But if we can release that vision and look at the ways each of our children actually enjoy connecting and being with us, we may discover that they are feeling connected and we just weren't seeing it at all.

ANNA: Right. We can get in our heads about things so often, you know? And we are so different, and that absolutely includes our children. We really do need to let go of ideas of what we thought it would be like and embrace the child in front of us. And in doing that, what you'll find is that you learn so much more about them and about yourself.

And so, we can see that connection isn't a formula, but again, it's this living process. And so, all those ideas, let's just set those aside and just really lean into, who are the people in my life and what does that look like for us to feel connected?

And so, when we're thinking about our friends, again, so much is the same in that everyone, no matter what, I will say this a million more times, wants to be truly seen and heard. Most would also like to be understood, but even if that feels hard sometimes, we can honor people, give them the space to be who they are, to move through the world in the way that makes sense to them, even if it doesn't make sense to us, to be there for them, with them. I mean, it really just is the root of friendship, all of these relationships as well.

So, I would say that most of us have friends that are different from ourselves. I'm an introvert and, maybe not surprisingly, many of my friends are extroverts. Extroverts make things easy for me in a lot of ways and they challenge me in that we see things so differently, but I can choose to love all parts of them, to see the gift in it, even if I need to sleep for 10 hours after a party and they're still raring to go, and they can appreciate that about me, and that's where we both feel seen and heard. That's where that connection just feels so nourishing.

Giving our friends unconditional regard. Listening, being there, learning what helps make them feel connected and being able to communicate what works for us, too, is just all a part of it. And again, it is going to be unique to each person. Some friends need conversations to feel connected. Some need actual physical time together. Others feel comforted knowing that space and time can pass, but that we'll pick right back up and still have that closeness.

Taking the time to know this about our friends just enhances those relationships and their ability to kind of nourish us and be a part of our close connections.

PAM: Yes. That was such a big a-ha moment for me that my friends didn't need to be super similar to me. We could be different people that enjoy connecting with each other in various ways that feel good for each of us, and that I didn't need to find one super friend that was going to meet all of my connecting needs.

I think growing up we can get the impression that we need one bestest, forever friend, that that's the goal when it comes to friendships. And while maybe that happens, it's not the only way to move through the world. It's not the only way to be in relationship with others, because people really are different and those differences matter a lot.

It doesn't mean we can only be friends with people that are similar to us, but whether it's our partner, our children, or our friends, it's worth celebrating them for who they are and finding ways to connect with them that bring us closer together, that help them feel seen and heard, and us feel seen and heard.

ANNA: Yes. Okay. So, something that just came up for me as you were saying that piece is, it's really important to understand that how we create connection and friendship may not be what our child needs. And so, what that brought to mind for me is, so often we can put on our kids, they don't have the best friend, or why don't they have a group of friends? They're not hanging out with this group of friends and doing all these things, because that's what we love. And why don't they have this best friend? I have this one best friend.

And it's like, both, either, and none of it is. Fine. It's so much about what the child needs, the person needs, in their relationships. And so, again, look back at the person, talk to them. Are they happy with their relationships? Are they happy? Because so often, kids can be happy with their sibling relationships and with their family relationships for a big stretch of time. And then there comes a time where maybe they want outside relationships and maybe those are older people that are more mentors that they enjoy. So, I love just what you were saying, just like leaving space for all of it is part of how we build connection and just honor our differences in that way. 

PAM: And I love the age piece you brought up, too, because we don't need to put constraints on like, oh, we need to find somebody your age. I had wonderful and continue to have wonderful and fulfilling relationships with my children alongside partner and friends. When I could take that piece out and just get onto a level and focus on the connection and the relationship, all those little blood pieces or expectations of relationship just kind of fell away. And it was just about the connection and the joy that we could experience together.

ANNA: Yeah. Just another, people are different. We all have our ways of connecting. So, connection is such a big topic and it's so important, and we really have just scratched the tiny surface of it. But I'm hoping that it's given some food for thought and a framework that connection is this active process. It's alive, and it's something that needs our attention to actually thrive.

And so, here are a few questions to think about as you turn an eye to the connections in your life.

Take some time to think about what you love about your partner. What things light you up about them? How does it feel when you read this list? How does it change your energy towards them when you read it and then go talk to them?

And number two, think about the connection you have with or had with your parents. Did you feel truly seen and accepted for who you are at your core? And if not, how did that impact your feeling of connection with them and really even your understanding of yourself?

PAM: I think that's a big one, because just to gain some experience with what connection feels like. As we're trying to figure out what it feels like, did I feel connection? Who have I felt connection with? How did it feel with my parents? Everybody says connection and you can have a sense of it, but what does it really feel like? And that's what we're trying to cultivate as we figure out all these different ways we might explore connecting with people.

ANNA: That feeling like, okay, when I have somebody that sees me, oh, what does that feel like? How does that feel different when I don't feel seen and heard? So, yeah, I love that for kind of teasing out, what do I want in connection and how do I want to be in connection?

Okay. So, have you viewed connection as a living process? What areas do you see that you would like to work on to improve your connection? So, I think this is important too, right? Just taking stock of the important people in your life. Hey, am I seeing them? Do I feel seen by them? Are there things that I want to change in those relationships? I think that could be really interesting to explore.

PAM: Yeah, I think so, too. Just the whole idea of it being a living process. Something that can wax and wane and not beating ourselves up or having expectations. That feeling of growing disconnection is just a nice clue. It's like, oh, I want to a little more intentionally find or create or cultivate connecting moments with this person that I'm starting to feel a little bit of distance from, but I want to feel that deeper connection.

ANNA: Because it's never about being hard on ourselves. It's just about that recognition like, oh, okay, I am feeling a little disconnected. What's going on there? And checking in about how that feels. And what kind of steps you want to take.

Okay. So, last question is, what ways do you stay connected with your friends? Consider asking what things help your friends feel connected to you? Because it might be surprising. And again, just this interesting conversation, because I think sometimes we're just going through the motions of things.

We don't actually realize that yeah, I do have a preference. I like to talk to my friends, or I like to see my friends, or I like to, whatever the thing is. I feel like the more we can verbalize what our actual needs are to someone, the better chance we have to truly connect and to be understood.

Because nobody is a mind reader. Nobody knows what we're thinking. And, so often, we haven't even given it that much of a thought, but yet we're reacting and feeling it. And so, this is just a little call for some introspection and like, hey, I want to understand a little bit more about what makes me feel connected to someone.

PAM: Yeah, I think that piece of just taking that moment to understand ourselves and understand what works what helps and again, playing with that. Because like you said, maybe we don't quite know yet, but we can try all sorts of things that, oh, you know, I think maybe this will feel connecting and then you go try it a couple of times and it's like, no, that's not as much fun or we didn't have as much time to engage with one another as I thought we might. But trying different things and playing around with them is perfect. 

ANNA: I love it. Okay. So, thank you so much for joining us and we look forward to next time.

PAM: Yes! Talk to you soon. Bye.

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about embracing all kinds of learning. Most of us grew up hearing that school is where learning happens and that the things that are taught in a school curriculum are the important things to learn. Honoring all the many ways that we can learn and the many unique interests that each person has is another way to deepen our connection with the people in our lives.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

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1. What are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? What about outside the teacher-student dynamic?

2. What does your child like to do at home? What interest(s) are they expressing through that activity? Can you think of more ways you can bring that interest into their days?

3. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child’s burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing they are a different person than you (check out episode 3), how can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that?

4. How are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside a classroom?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes, particularly the first 14 in our foundations series, because we continue to reference these fundamental relationship ideas and tools pretty often in our conversations. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.

So, today's episode is part of our Parenting series. The first episode in this series, episode 16, was about how we don't need to bring school home. Life is bigger than school, and a child is more than their grades. School can be school. In the next parenting episode, number 19, we talked about celebrating the child in front. That shift in perspective from trying to shape our child into our vision of the "perfect child" to discovering, supporting, and celebrating the unique child in front of us makes all the difference in cultivating strong and connected lifelong relationships with our kids.

So, now we're going to bring both of these pieces together to explore and hopefully soon embrace not just school-based learning, but all kinds of learning. There are lots of ways of learning that don't look like a classroom, that don't require a hierarchical teacher-student dynamic. There are more informal environments like groups who gather around their interests in person or online. And people of any age can learn things on their own through watching videos online, reading books or websites, or hands on play and tinkering.

Just because these activities don't look like a more formal classroom, doesn't mean the learning that's happening is any less real or valuable. Kids can learn things both in and out of the classroom. And if the classroom environment isn't a great match for their learning style, their learning accomplishments and environments outside the classroom can really help them feel accomplished and capable.

ANNA: I think it's so helpful to think about learning outside of the school context. It's helpful for us as adults and then we can apply that to children, too. I think an a-ha moment can happen when we look at how we learn as adults. We tend to use a variety of methods, seeking out mentors, finding like-minded groups, reading books, researching, hands on, just digging in and doing it.

We dive into our interests as they come up, and this could be deciding to keep chickens, building a shed, becoming a yoga instructor, an arborist. Each interest creates an opportunity for us to dive into that interest in a way that works for our brain.

So, for me, I tend to like to read about something. I like to make some lists. I like to write down some ideas and then often talk to others who are doing the thing that I want to try. And then I want to start walking in that direction. I have other people in my family who are the dive in head first, start tinkering, touch it, do it, think about it. And then they want to seek some outside resources. And we're all just so different that way.

But when we start to examine what that organic learning looks like for us as adults, not in a school environment, we can start to see that it's the same for kids. Then we can be more open to creating the conditions for them to pursue the things that they're interested in, in ways that suit who they are. It's back to being open and curious, right?

There isn't just one way to learn, and that is especially true if one is thinking the only way to learn is from a teacher and a school. That can have its place. Great. And there can be room for all the varied ways in which humans learn things.

PAM: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think not only is it helpful to embrace the all kinds of learning piece, it's helpful to embrace all kinds of interests. So, if the thing they love to do right now isn't directly related to a school subject or a prestigious career, it's still valuable. It's really fascinating to watch a kid in action when they're doing something they really enjoy. They learn so much, and it's almost as if it's by osmosis. They're just soaking it all in. That sponge metaphor is always around. And if they love it, it connects with them as a person. It has meaning for them, even if they or we can't yet explain what that is, but for now, it's coloring in a new area of the map of who they are as a person.

And the thing is, when we look back, often we can see the threads through their interests. So, how their love of wrestling with you on the couch became an interest in karate, which became an interest in parkour, which became an interest in stunt acting. But it can be really hard to see those threads in the moment, and even more so to try to predict them into the future, right?

But with the freedom to follow their interests, there's a good chance we'll be able to see those threads looking back. There is just so much value in embracing the things our children are interested in, and not just in the act of learning about the interest, but also in the development of a strong and connected parent-child relationship.

And if embracing your child's interests is something that you find challenging, I do invite you to check out Roya Dedeaux's book, Connect with Courage, practical Ways to Release Fear and Find Joy in the Places Your Children Take You. So, Roya is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she has spent the bulk of her academic and professional career learning how recreation, play, leisure, hobbies, interests and passions, impact, and are impacted by mental health. She digs into why wholeheartedly supporting your children's pursuit of their interests and passions is so important, and she shares some excellent tools to help us navigate that when it just feels a little off. It can be a new way to look at things.

ANNA: It is really fun to find ways to support our kids and ourselves in digging into our interest areas, because like you said, there's so often a trail of interest that leads to so much learning and then get synthesized into the next pursuits. Looking back, we can see how those trails led to the broader interest or even a passion area, but we don't often see it in the moment. So, trusting that something is popping up for our kids for a reason, a reason we may not see now, is part of trusting them as a person.

We can use it as a way to connect and to get to know our kids. What do they love? What brings a sparkle to their eye? What things do they choose to do with their time? Especially for kids in school these days, they have very little free time. So, if they're using that time towards an interest, it's important to them. And us supporting and facilitating that helps them feel heard and valued. And we just learn more about what makes them tick. And I think we all really want to know our children at that deep level. And they definitely want to be seen and known by us. You and I have both worked with plenty of adults who weren't seen or understood as kids, and it really leaves a mark.

PAM: Oh yes. Yes. It really does. And I feel like that can come when the parents' focus is fixed on bringing the school home such that their highest priorities are doing the homework, studying for the test, so that you can excel at school, and then rounding out their childhood with extracurricular activities. There is just so little time and space left for kids to discover who they are and how they tick.

And I would also argue that a solid level of this kind of self-awareness is as valuable as knowing a general set of facts and skills as they move into adulthood. It's how we find our unique place in the world. Understanding how we tick, how we can care for ourselves, and how we want to engage with the people around us is such valuable knowledge to have at hand as we navigate our lives. So many of us need to figure all this stuff out as adults, precisely because our parents thought excelling at school

was the answer to everything.

So, embracing all kinds of learning for our kids will go a long way to helping them navigate their lives with just a bit more grace and compassion for themselves and for others.

ANNA: So much! I know for me, so I did well in school and it really wasn't a bad experience for me, but I still had a lot of unpacking to do as an adult to figure out what I wanted out of life, what things were interests of mine, not through the lens of cultural or the expectations of the adults around me. And while I know this is a parenting episode, I just want to say it goes a really long way to support the interests of our partners and our friends, too. Trusting that something is pulling them towards an interest, even if it doesn't make sense to us on the surface, it means so much for the people to be supported in the things that they want to do. It really is a critical part of every relationship.

PAM: Oh, exactly. Because in the bigger sense, absolutely, it applies to all people. All kinds of environments and all kinds of interests can lead to all kinds of learning at any age. And when we embrace all kinds of learning, our world is richer and more fun. Life is more interesting.

We're not just all trying to get on that same path. Building our unique selves and learning how we tick and the things that we love to do and how we love to do them. Our kids just learn so much about themselves that they will find useful their whole lives. That was my experience, too.

So, whether or not you had a good school experience or a more negative one, either way, it took up time and it took us down, or was trying to take us down a path that was more generalized as society thought was successful. And I had to do a lot of picking apart for many years to try and figure out who I was beyond that.

Because then all of a sudden you're dumped into the adult world and it's like, okay, go do these things. And oh my gosh, to figure out. Do I like to do that? What do I like to do? How do I like to do it? To recognize that life didn't need to be a big ball of stress all the time. That was a big part of it.

Okay, so here are some questions to ponder this week. Number one, what are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? And what about outside the teacher-student dynamic? Because, so often, that dynamic can also be replicated in places, just because it's conventionally seen as the way to learn. But yeah, just bring a new lens to it. How is your child learning? Think about what do they love to do? Regardless of whether or not you like it or whatever, when they're doing it, when they're doing something that lights them up, look for the learning, see the learning that's happening.

ANNA: Yeah, it's there.

PAM: It's there. It's there. So, what does your child like to do at home? Now, let's take that in a little bit of a different direction. What interests are they expressing through that activity? So, we're going to look a little bit deeper at it. Can you think of more ways that you can bring that interest into their days.

So, maybe it's a show or a game or whatever it is that they like, if you can start to see what it is about that thing that they like. Is it the story they love? Is it the music they love? Is it the challenge? Whatever it is. And then think about more ways that you might be able to bring things into your lives that also meet that underlying interest.

ANNA: Yeah, I love that.

PAM: Number three. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child's burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing that they are a different person than you? And if you want to talk about that more, check out episode three. How can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that instead of always popping in to tell them the right way to feel the right way to do something, all those pieces? A little bit more space so that they can start making some choices and you can both start learning about how they would approach things, how they tick, what feels good to them.

And our last question, how are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside of a classroom?

ANNA: Yeah, I think I want to say about this one, because I think most of us, as adults, have been through this very long school system and we kind of were sold that that's the way to learn. So, I feel like it was a process for me to start recognizing there were different ways to learn and what that looks like. And so, I do think it's really important to just think about your own journey with that and how it's playing out for you as an adult and how you've branched off in different directions or have you? So, I think it's interesting.

PAM: Yeah, I think it's so fascinating to see, not just put that on a pedestal as the one right way to learn, that it's cool and it has its place and they're learning things there. But also it's just as value to be valuable to be learning all sorts of other things that make up them as a whole person rather than just what the curriculum says.

Anyway, I think this is going to be a lot of fun for people to start exploring. I'm excited that we shared this, and I thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!

ANNA: Take care.

We're back with another episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about triggers. A trigger is an intense, emotional, negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. Triggers often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for times when you find yourself activated out of proportion with the situation. Knowing our triggers helps us be more intentional with our actions. 

2. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation? What would it look like if you had a do over? 

3. Have you noticed triggers in your partner? 

4. What tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows.

This week's episode is part of our Conflicts series, and we're going to be talking about triggers. It's so helpful to understand ourselves and our triggers and hot buttons, noticing what comes up for us when conflict arises. Understanding how, in general, we deal with and feel about conflicts can help us be more intentional with our words and actions.

So, for some context, a trigger is an intense, emotional negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. The clue that our reaction is in response to a trigger is that it's often out of step with the actual situation in front of us, and it will also bring about some intense feelings in our body. That's because triggers are actually about us, not at all about the situation in front of us. They often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences, and they bring this confronting aspect and energy to the conflict for us that nobody else sees or feels.

PAM: Yes. I think that's one of the most interesting aspects for me, that the intense reaction I'm feeling isn't being reflected in the other people. Like, why aren't they more upset about this? Why can't they see what's wrong with this situation? I'd get more upset, because it seemed like they didn't care and I'd feel almost compelled to open their eyes to what was going on. So, eventually I began using that mismatch as a clue that my reaction might have more to do with me than the actual situation at that moment. But it can be hard not to get immediately carried away by that rush of emotions. Right?

ANNA: Exactly. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones. And to be clear, setting aside triggers doesn't mean ignoring them. Rather, it means taking the time to explore and process them outside of the conflict, to make sure we're truly reacting to the person and the situation in front of us.

And the first step to that is to slow down. Give yourself some space to bring your awareness to the moment in front of you and see if others are maybe not reacting as strongly as you are, or if your reaction seems to not fit the situation. If you notice that, you can take a pause and take steps to calm your nervous system.

So, somatic approaches are used to engage the relationship between mind, body, brain, and behavior. There are some great somatic tools out there that can help calm our nervous system, allowing us to act with intention again, a simple one being cold water on your wrist. So, excusing yourself to the bathroom for some quick cold water therapy can bring you back into the moment so that you can more intentionally face the situation in front of you. You can dig into whatever that trigger was bringing up later. Right now, you want to be present in the situation with your partner or child and not be confusing the situation with baggage from your past.

And so, I want to talk about the 90-Second Rule, which helps us understand some of the physiology that's happening when we have any kind of reaction. So, the concept was introduced by Jill Bolte Taylor in her book, My Stroke of Insight. In it, she describes how whenever our brain circuitry is triggered, could be fear, joy, laughter, anger, the associated chemicals are released and it takes 90 seconds for them to flush out of the body. So, at that point, we have a choice. We can choose to rethink the thought that brought about that physiological response, thus triggering it again, which means we need to actively choose to stay in that place, a place that's now in the past. To keep those feelings of fear, anger, or even laughter going, we have to keep buying back into that thought every 90 seconds.

And as you gain experience tuning into this process in your body, you'll start to notice the pause and recognize when you buy back into the thought. It's important to note though, that during the 90 seconds, you will most likely not be able to make a different choice. So, for example, once you've triggered an anger response, you need to let those chemicals course through you for the 90 seconds.

Then you'll have a chance to bring yourself to the present moment and make a different choice.

And while you may not be able to choose to feel differently during the 90 seconds, you can stop yourself from reacting from that anger, especially when you know that intensity of that moment will pass. It's so empowering to realize we have that control, that our anger doesn't control us, that we have choices along the way to react differently.

And I actually had a really interesting example of this just two weeks ago. So, I was in a hotel room and the fire alarm went off. So, it's like wake the dead fire alarm in a hotel. I was in a deep, deep sleep. My whole body, like I sit bolt upright, I'm super activated, my heart's pounding. I'm like, what's happening? There were fire trucks, the whole nine yards, but about 20 seconds in, I realized that the alarm still wasn't going off. The fire trucks had passed by. There wasn't really a threat, but my body was still on high alert. Heart banging, all the things. I tried deep breathing. I tried any tool I can think of, but it was only until about the 90 seconds passed, I felt my body calm down and I took a deep breath and I was able to go right back to sleep.

It was such a stark contrast and I think it was easier to notice in this situation, because I wasn't feeling the need to pull myself back into that state of alarm, because I knew that it wasn't that. I didn't need to buy back into it. I think it's harder when you're still mad at that person or that situation in front of you, but it's there. It happens. That pause is there and so, watch for it and it's pretty cool and kind of wild.

PAM: Yeah. Yeah, that is such a great example. Yeah. I think it's just so helpful to play with some tools, to see which ones can help us to just calm our nervous system down a little bit in the stress of the moment.

I mean, for me, a big one is deep breathing. So, a few deep breaths and not just like a deep breath, but concentrating on a slow out breath and envisioning the tension that I'm feeling washing out with my breath. Right? So, as you mentioned, often I'll excuse myself to go to the bathroom for a minute or two to do that. As you said, we may not be able to make a different choice in those 90 seconds, but we can try not to react. We can try to give ourselves space to let anger, fear, whatever it is, course through us for that period of time.

And to highlight what you said, because I don't think it can be said enough, it's about releasing the intensity of the emotions that are brought out by the trigger so that we can focus on the situation or conversation at hand and later doing some work to dig deeper and learn more about the trigger and where it comes from. Because if we ignore the trigger, figuratively stuffing it down, rather than setting it aside to be explored later, chances are it's going to keep triggering just as forcefully each time similar circumstances arise. If we get pretty good at stuffing it down and moving on, we can start to feel like a martyr, which often ends up disconnecting us even more from family and friends and our loving relationships. And if we find it harder and harder to do that over time, we're kind of on our way to burnout if we're not going to process some of this stuff, right?

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. Our triggers are pointing out areas that might need some healing or at the very least, some acknowledgement and attention. So, it isn't about ignoring them, it's just about choosing our reaction in the moment that best aligns with the person we want to be.

I think it might be helpful for us to just take a minute to walk through some common triggers, remembering that they are going to be super specific to each person, because it's all about our past and the things that happened and how we process that. But it can give you an idea of the things to watch for and a big piece of that is also going to be that body feeling, so, watching for that.

But one of them is getting in trouble. So, this is a trigger that many share from our time in school. Sometimes it can be from our family of origin reinforcing that as well. So, if you're in a situation where maybe someone's questioning you or maybe you realize that you made a mistake, you can have this all-over body reaction and it can cloud your judgment about the next steps that you take.

But you can keep in mind that, at that point, you're reaching from a place that potentially is decades past, where as a child you had very little control. In the situation in front of you, most likely, mistakes are viewed very differently and are not caused for such intense reactions. So, calming your nervous system so that you can clearly talk about what happened and ask some clarifying questions is going to serve you and the relationship much more than this oversized reaction that really won't make any sense to the person in front of you.

PAM: Yes, exactly. It won't make sense, as we talked about earlier. That can be very helpful too. A trigger that I've explored pretty often over the years is the fear of things going wrong. I thought I was being helpful in pointing out all the challenges that I envisioned that could come up with whatever the other person wanted to do or suggested. It's where my brain quickly went and eventually, I rationalized it as a skill. Let me tell you all the ways this can go wrong, so that you can come up with plans B, C, and D, or just realize right now it's too risky and move on to something else. See how much time I saved you?

But when I realized that my help actually created more conflict, I got curious and dug deeper. I found fear consistently being triggered underneath my professed help. I noticed that the fear was generating a kind of tunnel vision for me, in which pretty much all I could see were the things that could go wrong. And when I shared those things, others didn't take them as me being helpful, but as me not trusting them to make reasonable choices or to navigate things if they took a new turn.

I came to see that when I let fear trigger my reactions, when I tried to instill my fear into my partner or my children, even under the guise of being helpful, I was hijacking their experiences and learning. So, no wonder it often led to conflict.

So, I've gotten much better at instead looking at all the fun and interesting things that could come from the thing they're wanting to. At seeing their choices through their eyes, like we talked about way back in episode four, or even just getting curious and asking them what they're excited about.

I also got better at asking if they wanted to hear any feedback about challenges I thought might pop up. So again, it's not about stuffing that down, it's not about never thinking about it. It's like, okay, I'm going to set that aside for a bit and I'm going to look at this first, look at all the cool things and why they're very excited about this.

So, what was really interesting to me was asking them if they wanted to hear that feedback and the conversations that came up around that were very eye-opening. I learned that, so often, they had already thought about that same challenge and had a plan in mind in case it happened. And what was super fascinating to me was that their thinking about that wasn't driven by fear. It was just part of thinking about how things might unfold. They were just more clues to me that fear didn't need to be part of the picture, part of the conversation.

ANNA: And fear is such a big one for so many of us. And it is interesting, I think, to tune into any kind of habituated responses like that, especially if we notice they're causing ruptures or disconnections in our relationship, because I feel like, just like you found, just scratching beneath that surface will reveal some kind of trigger, some kind of fear, some kind of something that keeps bubbling up that we've kind of put a habit around that really isn't about the moment and just keeping us from looking at it.

So, one of my triggers is around control. So, I don't like to be controlled, and if I get a whiff of someone trying to control me, I'm going to start bucking. The challenge for me is that my reaction is usually not in proportion to what is actually. So, I do my best to notice it rising in my body. For me, it's a very physical experience and I like to name it just for myself. So. I'm like, okay, you're starting to feel controlled. Let's take a closer look and see what's actually happening here.

And so often, I mean, honestly, I'd say like 99% of the time, it's all about that other person, and they really aren't intending to control me or really even thinking all that much about me at all. And perhaps it's they're not feeling heard about something or supported about something. So, if I spend that time to really listen and understand where they're coming from, then we can find a path through whatever the issue is.

But if I start bucking against this perceived control, then the conversation invariably goes sideways. And it's just so often, again, it's just this defensive reaction in me doesn't leave space for any learning about what's actually happening for that person in front of me.

PAM: Exactly. Because so often, we can quickly shift the conversation to be about the trigger instead of what's going on in front of us. Like what? And they're like, what the heck happened?

A bit of a twist on that for me is that agency is very important to me, meaning choosing what I do. So, what can happen often is I'm intending to do something soon, then someone, often my partner, asks me to do the thing. Well, suddenly, yes, that whole body rush. Suddenly it feels like I've lost my choice, my agency. And now I'll be doing the thing to meet their request rather than doing it because I want to do it, even though I was already planning to do it. Resistance just immediately floods through me, and I need to work through that first, find my choice again, and then do the thing that I wanted to do all along.

What that also means is that I am careful with my asks of others so that they aren't received as demands and leave space for a cheerful, "Yeah, I was already planning to do that this afternoon."

ANNA: Yeah, I have definitely felt this one, too. And again, for that person asking, either they may just be processing out loud, they may be trying to check things off of our joint list. They're not trying to take away my agency and it still feels like they are. So, recognizing that trigger just helps me not snap back at that and just like, okay, that's about them. I'm planning to do it. It's almost even hard to kind of explain why that triggered reaction so intense. Because it doesn't make sense to the situation.

And that's, again, your clue to say, okay, this is not about this person or this situation. This is about something that stems from long ago, most likely.

And so, I think another flip side of this is that it can be really helpful to recognize when someone you're talking to is triggered. So, that will help you not take their actions personally. You can see that they're bringing an energy from somewhere else into the conversation and at that point, you can help slow things down. That will give them permission to slow down as well. It's never a time to push a point when you have somebody who's triggered in front of you. It will not go well. Asking for a break for yourself can give them a moment to regroup. Sometimes there's space for gentle questions, but often it's just better to just slow things down and allow them to ground back into the moment.

We don't want to meet that with defensiveness or I really think you'd see when you start looking, that's where so many conflicts happen.

In our closest relationships, I think it can be helpful to talk about this beforehand and have a plan if one of you is triggered. You can each decide what would feel okay in the moment. Is it moving towards a break? Is it a code word? Is it a somatic tool? Having some tools handy will help you both navigate those moments, so that it doesn't spiral into a deeper conflict. Because when we're in our rational brains, we don't want some trigger from our childhood to be impacting this relationship in front of us.

PAM: Yes. When we begin to recognize when we are feeling triggered, it does become easier to notice it happening with others. And vice versa, because maybe we notice it in others first, which then opens our eyes to recognizing when it's happening to us. But either way, our world gets bigger and our compassion grows, I feel.

And I also found it really helpful to chat with others about triggering situations outside of the strain of conflict. So, as you mentioned, we can talk about ways to share observations that the person seems triggered without further triggering them or us. And that can definitely look different for different people.

How would you prefer someone to share that kind of information with you? And we can chat about different tools to play with to help release some of that intensity and bring us back into the moment with clearer eyes. Which tools work better for each person? How can we keep those tools close at hand and easy to access? That is another fun thing to play with. If it's a spray, if it's a smell, we can keep those things in our pocket. Put them in a basket in a main room, those kinds of things, because these are positive things, these are helpful tools. It's not like, oh my gosh, I'm failing, so I need to go and do this thing. Right? Not that at all.

And we can also chat about different ways to approach conversations that have a better chance of just not triggering the other person's trauma or bad memories or fears. We don't want to trigger that so that it rushes to mind for them. So, it could be something simple as a change of phrase or Tone, as you mentioned, or energy. That can sometimes be all it takes not to trigger a trigger in the first place.

And we can talk about how each person likes to process things like challenges and triggers. So, are they or you more of an external processor wanting to talk about it as they or us peel back the layers? Or more of an internal processor wanting some quiet time and space to think things through on their own? Or is it more of a mix dependent on the circumstances?

And of course, all of these are not one and done conversations. We'll learn more and tweak things along the way. We'll try out a tool. It helps. It doesn't help. Maybe it helps for a while and then it stops helping as much. But this deeper understanding of ourselves and our loved ones most definitely can help us navigate conflict and triggers with more grace and compassion.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I mean, it's a process, but with this greater understanding of ourselves, with this shared language that we're talking about, we'll be able to cultivate an environment where we can stay connected. We don't take things personally and we can remain open and curious.

And I think, again, as we've been talking about, just bringing awareness changes what's happening in the home, because we have this language, we have this understanding, so it's not just running through the motions and kind of repeating the same fights, or repeating the same triggers or getting triggered every time something happens. So, I really love just these simple things that just bring new language and new awareness to the situations.

PAM: Yeah. I feel, for me, the biggest thing was it helped me not take things personally. Understanding the nuances of all these different situations and how all the different pieces of who we are play into the relationship and conflict and conversations and triggers and all those pieces help me understand that, oh, this isn't all about me. And it's not them doing something wrong. It's just who we are. And that was so valuable to me in navigating relationships.

ANNA: 100%. Okay, so let's talk about a few questions to consider this week. First, are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for themes when you find yourself activated, that seems a bit out of proportion with the situation. And be honest about that, because sometimes we're like, no, it was that serious. But the feeling in your body, you'll start to recognize it. Knowing our triggers really helps us be more intentional with our actions. 

PAM: It's feeling it in our body and like as you mentioned, it's like, no, it's not the trigger. If it happens multiple times. Like if it keeps happening over and over in similar situations like that, because the first 10 times, it's like, no, it's the thing. Yeah. Why does this thing keep happening?

ANNA: It's not the thing! Oh my goodness. Okay. Number two. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation and what would it look like if you had a do-over? And I think that'll be interesting as you kind of recognize like, oh yeah, that tone, that something, is a trigger for me that then we kind of have this escalation or this same conflict.

PAM: And I like the idea of thinking of it as a do-over, as in it helps us to more easily bring to mind choices in the moment. Because so often, when we're triggered, we just see the one thing. We're very focused on the one thing. So, we do our little bit of help to get us through those 90 seconds, through that first thing. And if we've thought about other possibilities, other ways we might choose to react, other kind of questions to ask in the situation versus declarations, if we've got that, it's closer to top of mind. So, over time, we can get to them a little bit quicker so that we can change, make a different choice, in recognition that we have a choice. And then as we talked about over time, we can tweak that and play with it.

ANNA: Definitely. So, number three, have you noticed triggers in your partner? And so, this is interesting, because like you said, as we recognize it in ourselves, we start recognizing it in others, but it's also that repetition that you're talking about. So, it's like, oh, every time I ask them about this thing, they kind of get snappy with me or whatever. Okay. Most likely, that's not about your question or what's happening. There's a trigger that's being set off that would be helpful to understand. So, look for those, again, repeating things or repeating energy even, like the same energy's coming. What's the common denominator?

PAM: Yes. I love that so much, because what we can do when we can start to recognize that repetitive reaction was seemingly over the top, because we can get stuck in, that is just over the top! I should be able to ask that question, so I just keep asking it again because their response is wrong.

ANNA: If I just keep asking, it's going to get better.

PAM: They'll figure it out. That might be a trigger. It's almost a response that they aren't able to control. That's when I can start thinking, oh, I'm going to play around with my tone, the energy, the timing of the question, the wording of the question, like there's so many ways that we can communicate something, that we can start to play with that and learn more. And then maybe in an off time have the conversation and ask them why are you feeling like that?

ANNA: We're bringing more compassion to it. And again, these are the people that we love. This is who we want to be in these relationships, even if we get a little like, that's over the top and too much. Okay, so question four, what tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?

I really do think this is a cool conversation to have, especially if you notice some of these repeating fights or things happening, just like, "Hey, let's figure out, how do we take a timeout? How do we do that so it doesn't end up triggering that." Because we have abandonment triggers and then somebody feels if somebody's taking a break, then that can trigger something. But if we have some agreements ahead of time, if we have some plans in place, then we don't have to take it personally. It doesn't have to feel like that. And we can just give each other the space we need to be present and be intentional about what's happening in front of us.

PAM: Yeah. I feel like with those conversations over time around it, it just helps lighten the weight too of the moment, to have somebody just recognize that we're triggered, recognize and not escalate back to us even. You could just absorb it for us and just show compassion, as you were saying. That's where we're going.

ANNA: We want to cultivate that. For sure. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us this week and we look forward to next time. Take care!

PAM: Bye.