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Episode 41: Sharon Salzberg, a meditation pioneer, teacher, and author, explores the nature of longing, love, and happiness through the lens of mindfulness and Buddhist teachings. She explains how to transform longing into a path for genuine happiness and deepen your understanding of love and connection.

Sharon Salzberg is a meditation pioneer, world-renowned teacher, and New York Times bestselling author. She is among the first to bring mindfulness & lovingkindness meditation to mainstream American culture fifty years ago, inspiring generations of meditation teachers and wellness influencers. A co-founder of The Insight Meditation Society in Barre, MA, Sharon is the author of thirteen books, including the New York Times bestseller, Real Happiness, now in its second edition, and her seminal work, Lovingkindess. Learn more about her at https://www.sharonsalzberg.com/

In this episode (in order), we talked about: 

• The difference between love and fear 
• How LovingKindness is the antidote to fear
• What children teach us about presence and kindness
• How her early narrative of suffering and loss made Sharon an excellent and compassionate teacher
• What lessons are the hardest she’s had to learn over and over related to self-hatred
• The importance of examining feelings rather than immediately responding
• How meditation keeps us from catastrophizing
• Why you don’t need suffering to be creative 

Quotes:

"Longing is the intuitive reaching for what can help us be truly happy."

"If love is an ability, it’s inside me and other people. They ignite it or inspire it or threaten it. But ultimately, it is mine. It is a capacity of my own heart to care, to connect, to have and offer a sense of belonging. If it’s within me, then it’s also my responsibility to nurture and tend it and help it grow." 

“Just look at the feeling. What does it feel like in my body? What’s the movie of it? What’s it made of?...If I put myself in that imagination….I see a lot of feeling like I’m not enough and a lot of negligence of the joy that is coming my way.”

“If we look at other cultures, we look from other perspectives, we see that qualities like balance harmony and connection, connection to nature and one another can be the source of great creativity.”

“It’s interesting to freeze someone in time. ‘The one who got away,” what does that mean?...I think we do ourselves a disservice when we freeze everything to the one being, or a succession of beings, who are not actually present or may never have been present in our lives…instead of realizing just how abundant our life could feel through connection.”

Chapters: 

01:06 Meet Sharon Salzberg: Meditation Pioneer and Author

01:49 Defining Longing: A Deep Desire for Happiness

02:23 Myths and Truths About Happiness and Longing

03:42 How Longing Can Serve or Destroy Us

04:05 The Myths We Believe About Love and Relationships

06:15 The Myth of Love as Just a Feeling

08:40 Loving Kindness Meditation: An Antidote to Fear

10:07 Practicing Loving Kindness for Self and Others

12:04 Sequence of Loving Kindness Meditation Practice

13:29 Children and Mindfulness: Lessons in Presence

17:17 Sharon Salzberg’s Childhood and Its Impact

20:29 Overcoming Suffering Through Compassion

24:23 Lessons in Self-Compassion and Relearning

28:33 Seeing Beyond Fear and Catastrophizing

31:21 Handling Romantic Longing and Unrequited Love

34:17 Joy in the Present vs. Fantasies of the Future

38:58 Creativity, Suffering, and Western Perspectives

42:26 The Role of Wisdom and Happiness in Art Creation

43:17 Letting Go of Past Lovers and Moving On

46:31 The Power of Loving Kindness Meditation in Healing

47:47 Inner Connection and Overcoming Loneliness

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Episode 40 Journalist Lisa A. Phillips discusses her new book First Love, exploring the emotional landscape of adolescent relationships, the significance of first loves, and how early experiences shape future romantic patterns. She shares insights on the importance of conversations around love and boundaries for teens.

Journalist Lisa Phillips is the author of the book, First Love: Guiding Teens through Relationships and Heartbreak. Lisa has written about relationships, mental health, and teens for The New York Times, The Washington Post, Longreads, Psychology Today, Cosmopolitan, Salon, and other outlets. She teaches journalism and the popular “Love and Heartbreak” seminar at the State University of New York at New Paltz. She’s published two previous books: Unrequited: The Thinking Woman’s Guide to Romantic Obsession and Public Radio: Behind the Voices. Phillips began her journalism career in public radio, working for radio stations in the Midwest and Northeast for more than a decade. She is a recipient of a New York Foundation for the Arts grant lives in New York's Hudson Valley. Learn more here: https://www.lisaamyphillips.com/

In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*How her daughter inspired the book

*How our first loves shape us later in life

*The importance of not dismissing a kid’s crush and instead validating the pain

*Identity crushes & the Jungian notion of anima and animus

*How “becoming” aspects of your crush you admire can free you from your crush

*The importance of redemption stories to overcome heartbreak

*Why self-actualization is not a prerequisite to being in a healthy relationship

*Relationships exist no matter what you call them

*The realizations she had when she reached out to her first love decades later

Quotes

“Our first experiences with pleasure create a kind of template for future attractions…we're forming associations with the conditions of pleasure that can be very lasting throughout our lives.”

“But if you've had the experience of breaking free from a pattern, which I certainly feel I did when I met my husband, that is the example of, okay, ‘I added this room to my house where it's still my house, but there's this different space that's much better, safer, more fruitful, more, fulfilling and mutual.’”

“Self-actualization in certain formulations becomes an impossible goal. There are always ways we could be more together. And even if we're at peak altogetherness, challenges, including challenges in relationships, can make us feel less than whole. That's part of love.”

“We still have responsibilities to each other. We have responsibilities to be clear. We have responsibilities to be responsive. And we have responsibilities to be kind.”

“He wasn't a great boyfriend, but he made a great muse. And after we broke up, I really did sort of set myself on this program to become all these things that he embodied…In really a very short amount of time, the “what he was” became less important than the ways that I was embodying these qualities myself.”

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Episode 39 Bobby Stuckey, James Beard award-winning restaurateur and master sommelier, discusses how he finds joy in the mundane, the essential skill of listening in hospitality to understand what customers are longing for, and how endurance running has contributed to his longevity in the profession.

Bobby Stuckey, founder of the James Beard Foundation award-winning and Michelin-starred Frasca Hospitality Group, is a renowned Master Sommelier, restaurateur, winemaker, and cookbook author. With a career spanning nearly four decades, Bobby's journey from busboy to award-winning operator includes notable roles at The Little Nell and The French Laundry, where he helped earn numerous accolades, including the James Beard Foundation’s Outstanding Wine Service Award. In 2004, Bobby and his business partner Lachlan Mackinnon-Patterson opened Frasca Food and Wine in Boulder, followed by other successful ventures like Pizzeria Alberico, Sunday Vinyl, Tavernetta, Osteria Alberico and Tavernetta Vail. A passionate advocate for the industry, Bobby received Food & Wine’s Mentorship Award in 2024 and the Julia Child Award in 2025. He is also a founding member of the Independent Restaurant Coalition. When not working, Bobby enjoys spending time with his wife, Danette, listening to vinyl, running marathons, and supporting sustainable practices in the restaurant industry. 

Learn more here: https://www.frascafoodandwine.com/team-member/bobby-stuckey/

In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*What fine dining means to different people

*The importance of listening in hospitality

*Why he busses tables at his own restaurants

*Identifying and satisfying longing in different customers

*Stuckeyisms related to preparation (i.e. the piggy bank theory)

*The role endurance running has played in his life

*Ways in which he’s a coach at work

*Future goals

Quotes

“I enjoy the mundane and the normal things that sometimes people would find boring or tedious. And I find a lot of joy in that, and it reduces the longing effect.”

“Sometimes I get recharged to this inspiration of the craft of hospitality through people you wouldn't think would be inspiring for my craft.”

“Hospitality is not about you. It's about someone else. We're not great at it in our country. Our culture has many beautiful things. The American culture is not about hospitality. We're not about thinking about the other person. And part of thinking about the other person is listening.”

“If we just obsess about perfection, it's unobtainable. So, what we have to do is do the best and work on our craft every day…We need those Friday nights, though, because then we learn skill sets that you can't read in a manual. How do you change gears and how do you stay like a swan when, wow, it seems like everything's up against you.”

“Running to me is part of my whole ecosystem of longevity in this profession.”

“Things that I would love to see have nothing to do with awards for Frasca. I think, at the moment, I would love to see policy writers on the civic level, the state level, and the federal level understand restaurants better.”

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Episode 38:  Flirt coach Benjamin Camras reveals what he's learned about longing, belonging, connection, and self-love, both through his personal dating experience and as a dating coach.  He shares ways he helps others navigate the complexities of dating and relationships.

Benjamin Camras is a flirt and dating coach sharing his love of flirting and BFE - big flirt energy - with the world! A lifelong introvert and socially anxious member of society, Benjamin now helps singles and daters alike flirt with more confidence, clarity, and fun! As the flirt is all about connection, Benjamin helps the flirt community (the Flirties!) date from a place that allows the value of connection in all forms - platonic, romantic, and with the self - to take center stage. Ultimately, this practice of connection helps flirters and daters alike create stronger relationships, transcend limiting beliefs, and develop an unwavering love for the self. His work has been featured in Fortune, NBC News, The Huffington Post, Men's Health, and Yoga Journal.

In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*The connection between practicing yoga and longing

*His evolution from city planner to The Flirt Coach

*The video he made on flirting that encouraged him to start flirt coaching

*His personal challenges being single at 40 and coaching others on flirting

*His “coming out story”

*Limerence in queer individual

*Fears he most hears clients admit

*His struggles with depression and anxiety

*How his mantra “Begin Again” helps you get out of your head and into the flirt

*The concept of the “solo date” to practice flirting to help nervous system adjust

*The importance of being a hopeful romantic

Quotes

“Once you come out, it's definitive. It's something you can't take back. It's out there and it will change your life forever. Not necessarily in negative ways. It can certainly be in positive ways, but it is a life-changing moment. And it's something that you have to do again and again and again. One of the biggest reasons I didn't wanna come out was because I didn't wanna have to have this conversation over and over.”

"For some people [in high school], I was the only gay person they knew, which was a lot of pressure.  Like, how am I supposed to be? There weren't a lot of role models to look to at that time...I didn't know of a single gay man in my life that was in a relationship. That was married, that had a family, a healthy partnership in all the ways that a lot of relationship practitioners and gurus talk about it and a lot of the ways I talk about it too. I didn't see that anywhere in my life.  I had limerence with this idea of something that I didn't know could exist because I didn't see it.”

“I work with a fair amount of people that are in their 40s, 50s, 60s and haven't really dated that much or haven't had a relationship. 'What if it doesn't happen for me?' is the thought a lot of people have. It's a thought that I have, which I feel like is the quiet part I'm not supposed to say, but it's true.”

"It's almost easier to be sad and miserable for me than it is to be happy. I've long struggled with mental health and depression, anxiety. And that's a big part of why I do what I do is hoping to help people feel less lonely. One of the greatest antidepressants in the whole world is connection.”

“A lot of luck is saying yes to opportunities. A lot of luck is going to that thing as a single person by yourself that you maybe don't want to go to but doing it anyway. So a lot of timing and luck you do have control over, but the universe also is going to wave its invisible hands.”

“We don’t always have to stay in the waiting rooms of our lives.”

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Episode 37: Lana Manikowski (a certified life coach, infertility advocate, and the author of So Now What?) shares her personal journey navigating infertility, how it shaped her life, and practical strategies for reconnecting with one's body and finding purpose beyond motherhood. She highlights the importance of creating a new narrative regardless of societal expectations.

Lana Manikowski is a certified life coach, author, and infertility advocate who helps women thrive after infertility. After a seven-year fertility journey that ended without children, she created the support she yearned for but was never offered. She went on to write the bestselling book So Now What?, founded The Other’s Day Brunch, an annual event honoring women without children, and hosts The "So Now What?" Podcast. Through her coaching and community, Lana guides women to release shame, heal their relationship with their bodies, strengthen their marriages or partnerships, and reconnect in meaningful relationships with friends and family who have children. She helps childless women create purposeful, joyful lives beyond motherhood. She holds advanced certifications in grief and post-traumatic growth and is a proud member of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine (ASRM) and an active volunteer with the National Infertility Association, RESOLVE

To learn more about Lana visit her website: https://lanamanikowski.com

In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

• Longing as a guiding beacon 
• How infertility can lead to feelings of failure & why self-compassion is essential
• How reconnecting with the body involves appreciation beyond reproduction
• Why purpose can be found in how we show up in the world (not just through motherhood)
• How friendships may evolve during one's journey of fertility
• Practical strategies to help in healing and self-acceptance
• How to better show up for ourselves on a daily basis
• Why she didn't want her book cover to look like a sympathy card
• The top 27 things people say when you're childless and how to respond 

Quotes

"Here I was (an) unexplained and failed patient. That really got into my psyche. Like, did I do something wrong? Did I not pay attention enough? Did I not take my medications at the right time? Did I do something in my past that I am being punished for?"

"I had an animosity towards my body that it didn't show up for me. So, I sort of gave up on my body and felt like it was broken and failed anyway. And I started working with a weight loss coach, and turns out she was a life coach, and that was what exposed me to the principles of life coaching."

"I think it's really important to allow ourselves to show up for ourselves first, and we're not often given that opportunity by society."

"There are so many things that our body does and so many new challenges that we can offer our body if we can let go of parenthood or motherhood or caring a child or conceiving as being the only thing that we see our body useful for."

"Why are we, as childless women, looking at ourselves without purpose? What if I'm not the person that needs to declare my purpose, but people take the beautiful pieces of me and, through that, my purpose is created. What if we just show up in our life and feel connected to who we are? Your purpose is super easy because you are impacting the people around you and giving them gifts because of who you are."

"There are moments where I see a mother baby interaction, and I still get sad. But getting sad doesn't mean that I'm still not growing."

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Episode 36 Columbia University Professor of Music Walter Frisch explores how longing is expressed in 19th and 20th-century music, particularly in the works of composers like Schumann, Wagner, and Arlen. Frisch also shares the lesser-known historic details on the development of the iconic song of longing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow."

Walter Frisch is the H. Harold Gumm/Harry and Albert von Tilzer Professor of Music at Columbia University, where he has taught since 1982. He has lectured on music throughout the United States, and in England, France, Spain, Germany, and China.  Frisch is a specialist in the music of composers from the Austro-German sphere in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and in American popular song.  His books include German Modernism: Music and the Arts (2005), Music in the Nineteenth Century (2012), Arlen and Harburg’s “Over the Rainbow” (2017), and Harold Arlen and His Songs (2024). He is currently working on a book about the classic French film musical The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. Frisch has been awarded fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities, the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation in Germany, the Center for Scholars and Writers at the New York Public Library, and Columbia’s Institute for Ideas and Imagination in Paris. Learn more about Frisch at: https://music.columbia.edu/bios/walter-frisch

 In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*How Robert Schumann’s infatuation for pianist Clara Wieck inspired his music composition

*The unresolved harmony in Richard Wagner’s Opera Tristan and Isolde 

*How Henri Berlioz’s object of longing, Irish actress Harriet Smithson, inspired his piece Symphonie Fantastique 

*Terms of longing used in music composition like “vague de passion"

*Why “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” almost got cut from the movie The Wizard of Oz

*How Harold Arlen composed the song “Somewhere Over the Rainbow”

*Why MGM hoped “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” would outshine Disney’s “Someday My Prince Will Come”—both known as an “I want” song in musical parlance

*How “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” made it out of MGM and was recorded and released (1938) before The Wizard of Oz (1939) by big band singer Bea Wain

*What the song meant to Judy Garland throughout her life

*The introduction to “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” that is often not sung

Quotes

“Sometimes we call it dissonance and consonance, or things that are unstable and stable, and very often, that pattern can sort of be linked to, or feel like it's connected to longing, a state of tension that longs for resolution."

“There's a melody [on top of this Tristan chord] that creeps upward in very small intervals, and it seems to be going somewhere, but not quite getting there…So that becomes part of this musical language of longing.”

“Wagner's view of longing and passion was influenced by the philosopher Schopenhauer, who, in turn, was influenced by Buddhism. There is this sense (that) you can never really overcome the suffering within this world. It's only in another world or in another sphere that you can find satisfaction.”

“In the middle section of the song, called a bridge, where Dorothy sings, “That's where you'll find me,” and before she goes back to the opening melody, on “find” that chord is the most dissonant, most kind of unresolved chord in the song, at the moment of greatest tension, so sort of like Schumann or Wagner.”

“The two composers that I've written the most about are Brahms from the 19th century and Harold Arlen from the 20th century. They never knew each other. They were totally different kinds of people. But in both their music, there is a sense of longing and yearning, even melancholy….it really speaks to me.”

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Episode 35 Feminist journalist and author of The Sex Myth, Rachel Hills discusses what she’s learned about sex as a source of power, the sex myths many of us believe, and how the sexual revolution didn’t really liberate us. Hills also highlights the social pressures she personally felt not having sex until her mid-20s. 

Rachel Hills is a feminist journalist and non-fiction writer based in Brooklyn, New York. She began her career contributing features and opinion pieces to the Sydney Morning Herald in her native Australia in her early 20s, going on to write for publications across six continents, including The Atlantic, Buzzfeed, Cosmopolitan, Elle, Fusion, The Guardian, The New Inquiry, The New Republic, New York Magazine, New York Times, TIME, Vogue, Washington Post, and more. Rachel’s first book The Sex Myth is about the invisible rules and assumptions that shape the way we think about sex. Her second book, The Whole Mother, looks at how we can liberate motherhood so that women don’t feel like they need to choose between having a child and existing in the world as their full selves. 

Follow Rachel on her Heart Talk Substack: https://rachelhills.substack.com/

In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*The impetus for writing The Sex Myth

*The most common myth she discovered doing research for the book

*How labels both serve and harm us

*Why trust and kindness could be the key to true liberation

*Ways in which we are encouraged to avoid emotional vulnerability in society

*The optimistic and realistic view of motherhood her new book The Whole Mother  

Quotes

“The core of the sex myth, similar to the beauty myth, is this idea that the way that we engage with sex reflects who we are and reflects our value in the world.”

“The fact that I was not having sex was kind of my greatest source of shame... I felt like it was this big secret that I was carrying at the time that I could not share with anybody because if I did, I felt like that would change the way that they thought about me, from what I hoped they perceived as being an attractive, fun, well-liked person and progressive feminist to…a loser, unattractive, and secretly conservative.”

“When I was working on the book and talking to people...they would often say to me in a kind of confession-esque way, ‘Oh, you wouldn't believe…my sex life is really unusual.’ And then sometimes they would say to me the thing that seemed the most usual thing ever.”

“If I'd lived in a different sexual culture—not just in terms of the ideals, but in terms of how people treated each other—perhaps I would have felt more able to have had sex outside of a loving relationship—not for my first time, perhaps, but later on. If I knew that I could have sex with somebody in a casual sense, and they would treat me with respect and kindness the next day, then that would be amazing. And frankly, it would be hugely liberating.”

“One of the myths within The Sex Myth is that older millennials, like myself, had been sold this idea that we were now liberated. But in fact, what we had been sold as liberation was a new set of standards, and in some ways, a new form of oppression, or at least regulation.

“As I look at what happened in the history of the sexual revolution and its consequences over the last 60 years, the problem is…it made the ideal to be to say, ‘yes,’ but it didn't necessarily make it physically safe to say yes, emotionally safe to say yes, pleasurable to say yes. It didn't always allow you to say yes and keep your inner sense of humanity intact.” 

“We're told that if we want to be mothers and have a life outside of motherhood, that is an unrealistic [and] selfish desire, that it's not inherent to what motherhood is. But I believe that suffering and self-immolation are not innate to what motherhood is."

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Episode 34 Dylan Thomas Doyle (PhD) discusses the use of AI in creating "griefbots," which simulate deceased loved ones. Doyle-Burke emphasizes the ethical considerations, potential harms, and psychological impacts of grief-related technology. He highlights the need for careful design and regulation. Doyle-Burke also mentions ongoing research and the cultural nuances of grief across different societies.

Dr. Dylan Thomas Doyle is a researcher at the University of Colorado Boulder who studies the intersection of grief and technology. His research focuses on the ethics of designing AI griefbots – chatbots that are being made to look and sound like our loved ones who have passed away. Dylan is an ordained Unitarian Universalist minister, a hospital chaplain, and the host of popular AI Ethics Podcast, The Radical AI Podcast, and the AI-tocracy podcast. Connect with him at [email protected]

In this episode, (in order) we talked about: 

*How griefbots are created from data and what kind of data is used

*Griefbot lingo like fidelity and hallucinations

*Questions and concerns he has for griefbot developers

*The problems that arise with monetizing grief

*Different types of griefbot users and what they want in a griefbot

*Differences between greifbots and prayer as tools to deal with grief 

*Why griefbots can psychologically short-circuit” grief

*Narrative therapy practices using griefbots

*The future of griefbots for the death of a romantic relationship (i.e. divorce)

*How cultural perspectives influence our view of griefbots

Quotes

“Griefbots are one way that people can plug into that longing and really try to understand who we are and what the world means to us and what we mean to the world.”

“People talk about elegant code. What does an elegant code look like for a griefbot, a technology that is about death and loss.”

“I never have have done that [made griefbots] yet for myself. It makes me feel weird, so I don't do it. And I think that feeling of weirdness is one of the reasons why I like to study it. Because, at the same time, I have talked to people who use these grief bots, and they really do help them heal.”

“The reason why people get into the death industry in general is because they've lost someone, or they've had a really bad experience of not getting the support or comfort that they've needed when they've had a loved one die, and so they say to themselves, I can do this better.”

“For the people who are using these grief bots, I think what they're longing for is comfort in the face of the unknown.”

“There's a concern and danger that we're just going to have instant gratification for grief, which is kind of kind of scary because grief generally needs time to process.”

“Everyone really does have their own cultural, familial, personal, religious relationship with this word that we call death. I don't think that the solution for bringing comfort is to just build a faster course, to just build a better chatbot that will help us overcome death—which is what some of these companies claim. I think the real solution is to figure out how to use this technology in the same way that we have other tools to help us work through death and work through grief.”

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Episode 33 Dr. Ravin Alaei explores the relationship between music lyrics and attachment styles. In a study of 500 participants, lyrics of ~4,700 songs were analyzed to quantify avoidance, security, and anxiety. Results showed that people with avoidant attachment styles preferred songs with more avoidant lyrics, while those with secure attachment styles preferred more secure lyrics. Another study analyzed Billboard charts from 1949 to 2015, finding modern songs are more avoidant and less secure than older ones. The conversation also touches on the potential therapeutic value of music and songwriting, and the influence of music on attachment styles, particularly during formative years.

Dr. Ravin Alaei is family physician at Western University in Ontario, Canada. He received his doctorate in psychology from the University of Toronto. He was also the lead author on a study published in the Journal of Personal Relationships in September 2022 titled, “Individuals’ favorite songs’ lyrics reflect their attachment style.” 

In this episode, (in order) we talked about:

*The different attachment styles

*The study he did that looked if individuals select songs based on their attachment styles

*The study that examined if recent Western popular music reflects the increasing individualism/avoidance Western culture has been experiencing  

*How his research assistants coded song lyrics to be anxious, avoidant, or secure

*How both attachment styles and music preferences are developed in teen years

*Whether our attachment styles influence the songs we are drawn to or vice versa

*Certain music artists who have lyrics that are anxious, avoidant, or secure 

*The impact of self-made breakup albums

*The tipping point between music being cathartic and being detrimental

Quotes

“What we found was that modern day songs are far more avoidant than older songs. They're far less secure than older songs, whereas anxiety has actually remained pretty steady across the years in terms of the West's most popular songs.”

“Instead of it being about the survey respondent, we just said, ‘How much do you think the protagonist in this song is expressing the need for self-reliance versus the need for the partner or longing for the partner or receiving the partner’s attention. So, it was the exact same scale you would use to find out an individual's attachment style.”

“So many songs from the past 20-30 years often will have some sort of insecure elements in them even if it is expressing security, at some points. It's tough to find a purely secure song from modern day music.”

“I would love to see the impacts that listening to songs from of a certain attachment style have on your ‘in the moment’ emotions and thoughts and expectations of relationships.”

“There is some research that songwriting is therapeutic. So, if there's a listener right now who is longing, consider songwriting or writing, writing it down into lyrics, seeing if you can express it in that way, because lyrics provide that space for you to do that and then that might be therapeutic for you. The second thing is to take a step back and really analyze the music that you're listening to and the message it's sending to you. See if you think that's helping you or being detrimental.”

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Episode 32 Psychologist Nirit Soffer-Dudek explains maladaptive daydreaming, a clinical phenomenon where fantasy becomes a highly disabling and distressing addiction. She discusses fuels, triggers, treatments and why/how it’s often misdiagnosed.

Nirit Soffer-Dudek, PhD is an associate professor at the Department of Psychology at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, and a licensed clinical psychologist. Her research focuses on the clinical and personality correlates of consciousness states including dissociative states, nocturnal dreaming, and daydreaming. Prof. Soffer-Dudek is also a past president of the International Society for Maladaptive Daydreaming (ISMD) and the scientific director of the International Consortium for Maladaptive Daydreaming Research (ICMDR).

In this episode, (in order) we talked about:

*What is maladaptive daydreaming and how it’s similar to an addiction (3:45)

*Why clinical psychologist and professor Eli Somer coined the term maladaptive daydreaming (MDD) to describe what many researchers had previously described as the personality trait of “fantasy proneness” (11:00)

*How MDD impacts a person’s ability to function in daily life (13:45)

*Literature and movies where MDD was illustrated before it was formerly coined (15:00)

*Fuel and triggers for MDD (22:00)

*Disorders people with MDD have usually been diagnosed as having have (also or instead) (26:30)

*Why, for people experiencing MDD, daydreaming is an itch you have to scratch (30:00)

*The difference between limerence and MDD (32:00)

*How MDD is different from PTSD that involves flashbacks (38:00)

*Common themes in MDD daydreams: idealized self, a sense of being wanted and taken care of, and elaborate sexual narratives (40:30)

*Therapeutic techniques that help: Self-monitoring, practicing mindfulness, and investing in one’s real life (42:00)

Quotes

“So, just imagine that you had this ability to watch TV all the time. You had Netflix in your head. It would be very difficult not to use it if you're not really interested in what's going on around you, or what's going on around you is causing you some anxiety. You have this internal button that you can press. Some people do press it actively, and some people say that it just comes to them without even actively trying to do it.”

“They feel shame, they feel guilt, they feel they can't achieve their goals. They feel so attached to their characters. It embarrasses them. They feel like they can't necessarily develop other meaningful relationships because they're too attached to these characters.”

“One of our studies showed that 70% of the people we interviewed who have maladaptive daydreaming also met criteria for ADHD, most of them the inattention only type.”

“It's not just a distraction. It’s not just imagining how you'll talk to your boss tomorrow about giving you too many shifts. It's something which is very creative. It's really deep in terms of the storylines. It's very intricate and fanciful, and people can really get into it for hours and hours.”

“Limerence doesn't have to be all about daydreaming. And maladaptive daydreaming doesn't have to be about an infatuation.”

“Among people who are trauma survivors that have maladaptive daydreaming, sometimes their daydreams are about trauma, but not necessarily the trauma that they had. And they're not necessarily in the same role or position that they were. For example, they could be perpetrators, they could be rescued.”

“It’s a normal phenomenon that has to be, not eradicated completely, but kind of mitigated back to its normal size, instead of being blown up and replacing your actual life.”