In this month’s episode, we discuss self-care, art, activism, and the mission for a better future with Eva Maria Lewis, a creative and award-winning human rights advocate from the South Side of Chicago championing Black women and communities affected by gun violence. 

A self-titled socio-cultural architect, Eva Maria founded what would become Free Root Operation when she was a high schooler. As Executive Director of FRO, she works to intercept poverty-induced gun violence in her city through community-centered innovation, with a special intention toward the wellness and empowerment of Black women. 

Listen in as we talk about the importance of prioritizing self-care and finding joy in everyday moments in the final installment of our #SoftGirlSummer series.

Related Links:

* Preorder Stop Waiting for Perfect

* Follow Eva Maria Lewis on Instagram

* Support Free Root Operation

* Stream “My Home, Our Glory”

In this month’s episode, we discuss the impact of perfectionism and social media envy, Beyoncé and the Renaissance World Tour, and the highs and lows of entrepreneurship with Aisha Beau Frisbey. We also talk about the importance of embracing imperfection and prioritizing self-care.

Related Links:

* Follow Aisha on Instagram

* Register for Re-Written the Retreat

* Listen to her podcast and watch her YouTube channel

* Sign up for her newsletter

* Check out her wedding pics!

This month, we’re kicking of the #SoftGirlSummer series with Oludara Adeeyo, a mental health therapist and author of Self-Care for Black Women and Affirmations for Black Women: A Journal.

Earlier this year, I interviewed Oludara for my article on Fortune about what it means to be a Soft Black Girl. If you’re curious about how to incorporate more self-care in your life, then this conversation is for you.

Buy Oludara’s books:

* Self-Care for Black Women

* Affirmations for Black Women: A Journal

Follow her on social media:

* TikTok

* Instagram

* Twitter

Transcript:

[0:00] Music.

Introduction to the LT in the City Podcast

[0:06] Hello, and welcome to the LT in the City podcast, your monthly dose of motivation, inspiration, and more.I'm your host, L'Oreal Thompson-Payton. On this show, we're all about leaving perfection at the door and showing up as our full, authentic selves.You'll hear from me, along with some special guests about everything from life and love to work and wellness.So get cozy, because we're gonna get into it.Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the LT in the City podcast.I am so excited for you to hear from today's guest, Oludara Adeeyo.She's a mental health therapist and author of Self-Care for Black Women and Affirmations for Black Women, a journal.She's passionate about helping people, especially black women, improve their overall wellness.Before becoming a licensed clinical social worker, she worked as a writer and an editor at Cosmopolitan, XXL, and she also lives in Los Angeles, California.She may very well be Bad Bunny's biggest fan. We talk today about everything from self-care and facials to body image and joy and all of these things that come together to manifest into the soft light.And this summer we're talking about living the soft girl summer.And so I'm really excited for you to listen to this conversation.Stay tuned for more information about where you can buy her books and where you can follow her online.But for now, let's get into it.[1:25] Welcome, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you here today.Thank you for having me.Yes, always, always a treat. Always a pleasure to get to connect with you and see your face and talk with you about my favorite topic, of course, is always self-care, Black women, and everything that comes along with that.And refresh my memory, I think you're recently off of a social media hiatus. Is that correct?

Oludara Adeeyo's Social Media Hiatus and Tips for Managing Social Media Envy

[1:49] Yes, I am back on social media. I'm back on TikTok.Kinda back on Instagram. Tiptoeing around Twitter.Telling around Twitter is a great way to describe the hot mess that it is these days.Is this something you do often? Like, what was it like and what did you learn in the process?So I regularly take social media breaks, but when it comes to taking a month long break of creating, that's what this break was. It was like a break from thinking about what I could create.I started it last year because last year in May, I was feeling like overwhelmed And I was just like, I need to take a break and I need to not.[2:35] Create content. And I did it and it was awesome. And when I came back, I felt like my brain was fresh. I came up with ideas. I came up with basically the Bad Bunny Bonnet Chronicles, which catapulted my TikTok. But it just made me, I love a good rebrand. I love a good stay low.[2:57] Focus on yourself and then come up, pop back up. Maybe it's the Aquarius in me.But the focus of this was that, you know, I wasn't going to create content.I was still looking at TikTok.I was still kind of in the know of what was going on, but I wasn't like checking Twitter every day.I definitely wasn't on Instagram answering DMs more. I wasn't responding to DMs and TikTok.And like, you know, I just was kind of like seeing what was being posted and then I would like get off.Um, I would even limit how much I was using or scrolling. And it was what my brain needed because I think as creators, like, you know, like you are like, I think as creators, sometimes we just get so like burnt out, just so much consumption.Cause I think as a creator, you're a creator and you're a consumer.Yes. And if you're just a consumer, then it's just like, you don't really have to think much, but I mean, but you should be thinking about what you are consuming, but you don't have to think much about, you don't have to create much.And you know, when you're creating stuff, it like takes up so much emotional and mental energy. And so during the break, I was just like, yeah, I don't, I don't want to be influenced by anyone else. If I have something to create, I don't want to take in anyone else's ideas. I don't, I don't even want to like think about, oh, I could do this trend this way. Like I was just like, just enjoying what I was consuming. So yeah, it was great. And then when I came back, I mean, I'm back, but I'm also like, I'm not fully back.[4:27] I'm not fully back in the sense of like, oh, I want to create content all the time.[4:32] I think I'm like tiptoeing back into being back because I just was, I was just tired. I'm just tired.It's a lot. And I feel like TikTok, especially because I'm more of a lurker on TikTok.I just watch what everyone else is doing and laugh and, you know, like save and share videos.But I don't post any because video intimidates the hell out of me, first and foremost.And then beanie, all the editing that goes into it, like that is real work.And I admire those who do it, but I don't have the time or the patience to learn as I admire. Yeah.I mean, creating a 30-second TikTok could literally take like four hours.Like, yeah, it's definitely there have been TikToks where I like, you know, I'm like, I'm like, oh my God, I've been working on this like for six hours all day. Like, holy crap.Like, oh my God. I, you know, so it is a lot of work, but I, but I enjoy video.I think out of all the formats, mediums, I enjoy video.[5:30] Um, I enjoy TikTok. I enjoy getting just to like be silly and fun and yeah, it's tough.But Twitter, I mean, I came back to Twitter and I was just like, what is this mess?Everyone always seems angry. We're always having the same conversations about bonnets and men versus women and 50-50. I'm like, what is, oh my gosh, what is going on?Do you remember when Twitter was like, I think it was a media cesspool because it was like all the writers and editors were on there, but it was like cool because it was like, everyone was smart and brilliant and like writing such great stuff.And now it's just, oh. They just let anybody in, like it's. Yeah, just let anybody in.People believe all the misinformation that's on there.Yeah, I just it's not the Twitter we knew in like 2000. I know. Is it sad?Because it had those are the good old days in something I've been grappling with.I feel like as a constant throughout my entire adult life. I mean, Facebook came out when I was in two when I was a college freshman.So what was that, 2004? And then when I joined Twitter in 2010 and in recent years as a journalist, as an author, as.[6:44] I don't think of myself as an influencer, but you could probably put me in that like micro-influencer space to see what everyone else is doing, all the book deals that they're getting, all of the followers that they have, social media envy is a real thing.So I'm curious from your personal perspective, as well as your professional perspective, as a mental health therapist, how do you navigate that? And what are some tips for the rest of us to try to manage that as well?[7:10] So that's real and that's why I regularly take breaks. So when I was transitioning from journalism to deciding to do social work and I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do with my life, I got off of social media completely.[7:24] Uh to the point people were like are you okay i mean like one yes i am i'm just living my life but also no i'm transitioning out of another phase of my life that i thought was my whole life i thought i was going to be a new york city magazine editor blah blah blah and then having to see you know your classmates and colleagues just get just do all the things live their best lives live their best lives you know have kids get married buy home you know travel do all these really fun things that I couldn't do because I was like broke and didn't know what to do with my life.And I just think like not looking at that stuff is very beneficial to you because you need to listen to yourself and listen to your own path. If you're constantly consuming other people's lives, you're like, oh, I need to do that. Oh, I need to do that. But you're not listening to what you actually need to do. And then when you do something that someone else is doing, it's not going to look how you think it will look. But so how to deal with that one, take those breaks. Also, I think follow people who may not make you feel envious.[8:30] You can be inspired, but you know, if you're struggling with getting pregnant, maybe following a bunch of like family and couple accounts and baby accounts may not be the best thing for you. I had to mute so many people that I even knew in real life, like coworkers, friends, I was like, mute, mute, mute, mute.I've never seen this. Good for you. I'm happy for you. And I'm trying to protect my peace.Exactly. And it's like, not personal to like, mute friends, family members, people, you know, on social media, because it's just like, it's the internet and you don't want to constantly consume content that's going to make you feel bad about yourself.So I have definitely gone the route of muting people who I was like.[9:19] Look at them living their best life. You know, like, I wish, I wish I was doing that for you, right? But I think feeling jealous and having a bit of envy is actually okay because I think it kind of just tells you what about yourself, like what you want, what you desire, where you wish you were. So, and then it can sometimes motivate you to work towards those things.Yes. But yeah, I'm team mute. I'm team put a limit on how much social media you intake.I'm like, I'm a conscious social media user. So, you know, don't share what you're not willing.

The Negative Impact of Social Media and Comparison

[10:03] To have people talk s**t about, you know, because people will run with things on the internet that if you haven't processed something, and then you're just running to the internet first to to share it, you're leaving yourself vulnerable.And that can impact how you are processing whatever you're going through.And that can be very negative and can impact you even worse.[10:27] So take breaks, mute people, be aware of who you're following and also aware of what you're sharing.I love what you said about jealousy being a motivator and that it's not all bad, right?And I do think that's like, there's so many feelings and emotions that get ascribed these like negative associations.But when you look at it itself, it's not inherently bad or good.It's kind of like what we make of it.Cause I think very vividly back to, there was an event, I think it was like 2016 or 2017.[10:58] At this bookstore here in Chicago. And I went to go see Lovey and Samantha Irby.And instead of feeling like, I was inspired because they're incredible.And it was also like, oh my gosh, here are these Chicago bloggers turned authors that are living their best lives have a packed launch room, you know, like for their book launches and everything.And I remember writing home and being so sad and so jealous.And that was actually the impetus for me to start therapy because I got home and ironically, I was wearing my Wonder Woman pajamas, but I was like crying in the bathroom mirror because I, at the time, it seemed so far out of reach.Like what that evening illuminated for me is that I really do want to become an author.I want to have that same experience. I want to be on that same stage.And I need to do the work that is required to do that. And I need to stop, cause it was a spiral that happened that night when I got a phone call and I didn't know, I didn't have the toolkit that I have now to pull myself out.But that did light a fire under me for two things, like therapy and also like going full speed toward my author dreams. so you can channel your jealousy toward good things.[12:05] Absolutely. And that's viral. Relatable. Relatable. I mean, my books have been very successful. They, you know, I've sold a lot of copies. I'm on copies.Like, a lot of copies. Them royalty checks are nice. Ayy, yes. I'd be glad to see it. whoops, pay.And so I think in comparison, yeah, I've definitely like looked at like Lovie and I was like, oh, I would love to be a New York Times bestseller.And- Who among us? You know, it does not.I was like measuring my success by that. But you know, thankfully, thankful for therapy and just like spaces and friends and family just remind you that like, what do you mean?Like- You are that b***h. You're still successful and we got to stop comparing someone else's success to your success because that's relative, it's objective, it can look different.And yeah, there was a moment where someone had shared how many books they sold, someone I follow, and she sold like 10,000 copies.[13:18] I think that's incredible. So 10,000 copies of your book.And then I remember I looked at how many books I sold and I'll be honest, I've sold about 45,000 copies. Oh my gosh. Yeah.And I think in combination with like the second book, I would say I'll say self-care for black women has sold over, we're probably going to be 50,000 copies by the end of the month.But that's huge. Yeah. Right. Congratulations. That's amazing.Let's, let's not breeze through that. You know, like I want to pause and celebrate and just like stand in your shine, girl, come on, like you did that. That's freaking amazing. Yes, I was just so I'm not I'm not.I'm not shitting on the girl got sold 10,000 copies. I think that's amazing.I think she's just absolutely celebrate that.But it put me in perspective, right? It put me in perspective to just think like, no people who are selling more than you are selling less than you. There will people just be different areas of their own success and their own journey.And so seeing that, and then looking back at my numbers, I was like, Oh, I've sold a lot of books.[14:26] This is actually a really big deal. And, you know, I tell my friends and they're like, Oh my God, you know, like I just did.But also my therapist is also, she would always be like.You, I know you probably want to like have you have this big idea of what like your book selling should look like, like, should be already in a motion picture, like, like just these big ideas, right. And I think big ideas are great. But I think it's important to be grounded also in the reality and also enjoy and celebrate what's going on in this moment. And, you know, not under appreciate what's going on. So I've had to do that. And I think that's been very helpful. Just like my mental health. But yeah, Yeah, and I had to check myself earlier this week.

Coping with Anxiety and Overcoming Spirals

[15:12] It's always the scroll right before I go to bed in the bathroom, right?And so knowing this, I should not do it, and yet.10.59 p.m., I'm like, this author has an event at this bookstore, and this author said yes to them, but she said no to me, and like questioning myself, looking at other people's blurbs, and other placements that they get, and starting to spiral, and I have, dear listeners, you cannot see this, but I have a Breathe Deeply aromatherapy spray here that I lovingly called my anxiety spray, which fun fact, you're not supposed to spray directly on your face.My therapist told me that after the fact and then laughed at me.That's funny. Very much like that.[15:51] Oh, she said to use it. And I was like, okay.She was like, wait, are you spraying it on your face?And I was like, yeah.She's like, just around you, like get the, anyway. So I'm curious, what's in your anxiety toolkit or your spiral toolkit that can maybe be helpful for people listening as well.Mm, okay.What's been helpful for me? So I love a good playlist and I love Spotify.So lately I've been listening to this playlist It's called flute meditation.[16:24] And it's just, it's calming. I love calming music.I love listening to the high frequency music. I don't know what it's, I forget what they're called, but it's like meditation music.There's just something calming about it. But right now the flute meditation playlist is just something, it's like different flutes and sometimes they're soft and they're high.I don't know, it just kind of like lets me not, helps me get out of my mind.And something that I regularly do to help me with my own anxiety is I re-watch shows.Those are coming.Like, I was watching Psych and now I'm watching Monk.And it was cool to go back and watch shows I watched before and that I haven't really remembered and remember why I love them.And I normally would be doing exercising and journaling. Those are things that have always been in my arsenal, but I haven't tapped into them lately, which I'm working on changing that.But sometimes with several things that you use to help, sometimes you fluctuate and you're in and out of them.Therapy is definitely one.I've also like, oh, I get facials every month.[17:41] That explains the glow. Cause listen, y'all can't see this, but when I tell you our girl is out here glowing. Beautiful.Beautiful. Um, that definitely...It was a thing because I think skincare is also self-care for me and I had over the last year I've been getting facials every year at a place called Face House here in LA.They're like the dry bar facials. It's like you go in and you go for your hour and then you're out.I had been struggling with hormonal acne and at the time I had an insurance that would not let me see a dermatologist.Would not let you be great.

Journey to Better Skin with Estheticians

[18:25] So, but I love estheticians because to me, they're like skin consultants.And so it was great to like go through the journey with someone of finding the right moisturizer, finding the right exfoliate, finding all these things that were going to work for my skin.And essentially that's what the journey has been. Like I went from like having really bad hyperpigmentation and like really bad congested skin to now it's like less congested. It's a little bit more even and I understand my skin more. I pay attention to my skin more. And so I do that every month actually. And it's really great. And I've built a relationship with the esthetician because it's like, yeah, you build a relationship. You see someone every year, every month. It's fun.[19:09] And treating yourself. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's expensive. Okay. So let's just say it's a pretty penny, But I look at it as an investment because it's an investment in my mental health because I was feeling bad about myself and about my skin. And because I took the time and effort to take care of my skin and get to know my skin, yeah, it's been beneficial. And it's a great segue into the theme for this summer on the podcast is Soft Girl Summer. And you and I talked earlier this year in my piece for Fortune about what it means to be a soft Black girl. So I want to revisit that that conversation and also if there's anything new since then that you'd like to add about what the soft life means to you because I think at one point it got a bad rep, right?People were equating it with like black girl luxury and like, but also like, as you said, that's a form of self-care and we deserve nice things. Okay, everybody listening.And when I did some research into it, I found that, you know, this trend had started with Nigerian influencers because black women birth everything.It got co-opted as trends are want to do.And I think we kind of like lost the way, but we're getting back.And I see you, I see other friends and people that we know like really embracing this soft life.So what does it mean to you? And how are you living a soft girl summer this summer?Ooh, how am I living a soft girl summer? We need shirts, we need shirts.[20:39] Well, I think tangibly, I'm definitely traveling more this summer.Got some summer trips planned to Mexico, Miami, to visit friends who live in those areas.I'm definitely...[20:51] More in tune with myself. So I think when we first talked about soft girl life, I was in the job that was literally like horrible.That was sucking the life out of you, actually. The opposite of soft life. Okay.And so I was on the journey to like get out of that job. So now I'm out of that job and now I'm in recovery. Yeah. Yes, yes.Woo, thank you Lord. Won't he do it?[21:16] Won't he? I'm gonna be like, oh my gosh, praise him. Um, so that was part of like my soft girl journey to like get out of that job specifically because it was literally ruining my mental health. So I got out of that job and now I'm in the recovery of like the burnout and the depression that was created by that job. So a lot of it looks like just doing what I want to do. Also being a little bit more social, I've learned about myself that While I am an introvert and I like to kind of just like keep to myself, I do value being social and it does make me feel good to like go out to dinner with people, you know, link up with people. So I am definitely making an effort this summer to be outside. Catch you outside. Yes, be outside, but then also be back inside to go to bed. I forget, that needs to be the shirt when the And the front is like heading outside and then back inside.Yes, back inside. So I'm definitely doing that.I'm also embracing my summer body, which means whatever my body looks like.I wasn't on any like, particular regimen to quote unquote, unbig my back, which I hate that saying.[22:30] I have never heard that. Who came up with this? Oh my gosh, you're not on TikTok.I'm on a very specific, it's like Beyonce and baby TikTok. That's where I live.There was a trend for a while where people were talking about unbigging their backs.Oh, no. To get, to basically to get your summer body. I mean, the internet is so fat phobic.Yeah. That's a whole other thing. But so, yeah, you know, like I bought clothes that fit me right.You know, yeah, I've gained some weight because I was stressed out and, you know, not taking the best care of myself.But now that I'm trying to take care of myself, that also includes embracing whatever body shape I am now.I still love myself. And so that's been fun, like buying new clothes and deciding my travel outfits and, you know, getting new bathing suits and stuff like that. So that's been fun.So, yeah, a lot of travel, a lot of shopping, it's a lot of money spent.[23:23] Hold on. And it will come back to us. It will come back to us.Abundance, manifestation.Money always flows through things. Exactly, easily, easily and freely.I love to hear what you said about shopping because as I've written in my newsletter a number of times now, I'm on this self-love journey with my pandemic postpartum body situation over here.And, you know, seeing numbers that I've never seen before and knowing that I shouldn't care or feeling like I shouldn't care.And I am a black woman in America who has been subjected to a lot of influences, you know, at a very, since I was, you know, really young.And my therapist has been very helpful in that as well with like doing away with that, like binary thinking of like good or bad or like should and this and all of that stuff.And so part of the healing process, the recovery for me, I guess, tape has also stressed new mom, new author, all of these things.And also, like, I went shopping this weekend at Macy's for the wedding that I had that same day on Saturday, like after I got my nails done. So it was a little, it was a little chaotic on my part.And these dresses that I thought I was like, oh, I look good.So finding clothes that make me feel good is a form of self-care.Yeah. Not feeling guilty about spending the money on quality.[24:42] Because we know these like fast fashion things aren't all like doesn't do the body good or midsize.I forget what I'm supposed to be. My friend told me like TikTok, because I did again, I'm not on fashion talk.So I didn't know that midsize was a thing.But I found influencers like there was a mom I follow who has a similar I think she called like apron belly or something like a lot of C-section moms have and I was like, oh, my gosh, she looks like me and she's gorgeous.

Embracing Our Bodies and Choosing to Live Our Best Lives

[25:05] Oh, what is she wearing? OK, let me go order that. And like I felt like a million bucks in this one dress.And that's important to like feel good about yourself and your body and treat yourself to nice things to feel good about it in a world that I think doesn't want Black women to have nice things.So. Absolutely. Does not want us to have nice things.And to be soft as well.And to be soft and to love ourselves. Like, the world wants us to like hate ourselves because they hate us. But like.Well, that's a whole word. Because it's action and like me, like. Yeah.I'm gonna love myself no matter what I look like. Okay, it doesn't matter.Yeah, there's been a lot of that for me.Embracing where I am, and because I'm like you, I'm seeing numbers I have never seen.[25:50] In my life on the scale. And I'm like, oh, on the scale of my pants, my dress, like everything.And I'm like, on one hand, I'm like, oh, my gosh, well, yes, I'm going to work towards just, you know, I'm not afraid to say I'm going to try to drop some weight. But also, I just want to be health. Health is the focus. Yes. The weight loss comes, it comes, but like health is the focus.And just accepting that and like not trying to have it define my worth. That's what I've been been working through and just still choosing to live my best life despite whatever the scale says, whatever the dress size says.[26:24] Yeah, which I feel bad that this podcast and y'all can't see how fabulous Dara looks right now.In your robe, that looks very soft. So it's just very fitting for the conversation.Like so plush and so cozy. You look cozy.It's amazing. What else was I gonna, I totally just lost track of thought, but that's okay.Yes, we were talking at the start of Ambition, and I feel like we're very similar in that realm as former and still for me, journalists, as authors, as black women in particular.So what impact has Ambition had on your mental health?And how do we, I'm asking for me, not let it get to the best of us?Oh, child, how do we not let it get the best of us?So, you know, I'm Nigerian, so like Nigerians are naturally ambitious, which I feel like is trauma, but you know, we won't go there.Or we can if you want. It's up to you. Yes. I mean, just, I've never, I mean, the same Nigerians have as Nigerian, Nigerian no carry last or.We know carry last. That saying it, that saying is just very like, it's opposed to.

Nigerian Work Ethic & Black Women's Ambition

[27:39] We're just always working. We're just always, Naija, yes, I just want to make sure I get it right. Naija knows they carry last. And it's like, I've never met a Nigerian who wasn't a hard worker, who wasn't like working themselves to the bone, who wasn't defining their worth by by their work.So that's kind of like what's been instilled in me. And also I grew up as a gifted child, meaning I was just reading and writing faster.And I was just always getting good grades. I was always doing the sports.I was balancing everything with grace.Although on the inside, probably a lot of turmoil. When I look back at it, you know, I was very stressed.But at the time it's like, oh my gosh, I got to do all these things.I got to make sure I get into a good college. I got to do this, this, this.[28:26] Which I feel like is not just because I'm Nigerian. It's something a lot of black women can relate to.It's just like, we have to do all these things. Twice as hard, half as much.Twice as hard, just to get half as much.And then also, you know that joke of how like, when a black woman goes through heartbreak, she goes against another degree.Are you familiar with that joke? I did see that, yes. And it's so funny to me because it's like, yes, I know so many black women with degrees, whether it's just one or two or three, Like I know so many black women who just go get degrees cause yeah, that's what they want to do.So yeah, ambition for me is like for a very long time it was like my identity was like, I'll have to be the best.And that's like, it took a toll on my mental health and also kept me longer in the journalism industry as a magazine editor, because I was convinced that I had to stay at this job that was ruining my mental health wasn't paying me enough.

The Pressure of Identifying with Your Job

[29:27] Okay, cause they don't pay editors enough in that industry. Unless you're like the editor in chief or something.I mean, and then the hours are like round the clock, okay?[29:37] But I was just like, I am going to be an editor in chief. I am going to do this.I am going to be a director or a manager, whatever.I was just like, I was going to have like the big high power magazine, New York City job.And then when I realized that trying to do that was killing me and I wasn't really like loving it, it took me a while to like admit that to myself and then take action to leave.And then after I left, I had to shed my identity that was tied to my job, which I think is a very common thing for a lot of black women.We tie our worth to our jobs because that's what society tells us.You know, what we do is who we are, but that is not true.I don't really believe that. I believe you can like.Be professional and have your professional life and like, yeah, be gifted in it, find some purpose in it. But it's not what defines who you are, like how you treat people defines who you are, you know, the relationships you have in your life, you know, define who you are. So, so yeah, I would say for a very long time, my ambitions were driving me towards burnout. And what was other part? You had another part. How do I handle it? Yeah, ways to just like not let it get to that.[30:57] Burnout point. How do we have healthy ambition? Like, or does such a thing exist? I think it's kind of like jealousy where it's not inherently bad or good. It just depends on what we do with it. Yeah. So how do we do it well? I would say like ambition is not all bad. I think it's great.Like it can really motivate you to create a life you really love.But, you know, it can also force you to just not be true to yourself and pursue things that aren't really aligned with you, but only you're only doing it because you think that's what you need to do to be successful. And so I feel like I personally, how I handle like being ambitious, I like to take breaks. I think that'll be a theme in this podcast. Breaks.Yes. I love it.

Pursuing Ambitions Slowly and at One's Own Pace

[31:51] Take a break. Yes. I like to take breaks and just, and also take my time. I think I really, lately, I've really just embraced pursuing my ambitions slowly. I've really embraced pursuing my ambitions slowly. I think in the past, I've definitely pursued them with like the fear that they're going to get away and achieve them. So I've got to do it now, now, now.For now, I'm of the mindset that like, I am going to get what I want.I am going to achieve all the things I want to achieve, and I just need to...[32:24] Work towards them as slowly as I want, or as quickly I feel like, right?Sometimes you do feel motivated, and you're like, oh yeah, let me write this whole thing tonight, and that's fine.But sometimes you're like, you know what, I need six months to think about a name of my company, and that is fine, because I'm not quite ready to deal with that.But I'm now in a space where I fully believe that I can reach all my goals.So I'm not going to make myself feel bad about how I'm pursuing them.I'm going to pursue them at my own pace and just continue working towards them.That's, yeah, I need to do. I need to do.So much of what you said, because I too held a dream about being editor-in-chief.And I feel like, honestly, the higher up I got on the masthead, the more I was like, this ain't it. because the women that I saw were miserable.Okay. There was no, and I know that there's no such thing as work-life balance, but it was like not even anything close to it.And they're not even writing. Like they're just, They're just managing.They're in meetings all day. And I'm like, that's not what I want to do.And I'm rethinking my own relationship with ambition now, you know, like being a mom and, you know, and there's just like the hours in the day, like 25 year old L'Oreal, like hustled with the best of them. I would like work my ass off.I'm tired.[33:53] I'm 35. I want to take a nap. And it's in the time and space is what I just, something that keeps popping up.Like I want time and space to write meaningful quality stories.And that time and space is not always afforded to people who work in media.[34:09] Who work in digital media in particular, to black women who work in digital media.Okay. So yeah, we're evaluating a lot of things over here.Absolutely, absolutely. And you're so right. I feel like the higher you get up in an organization, a system, you see how it really operates, you're like, I don't really want to do this.Mm-mm, no. Because it's like not enough money in the world. I'm like, no, it's just.It's just not. And that's so interesting. That's like what, you know, a Tusa Rubinstein.She used to be 17. I remember that's what she said like right before she like, or after she left 17.She was just like, there was not enough millions of dollars they could offer me to do this anymore.I always feel like that's so real. It's just like, yeah, money is great. We love it. It gives us the lives we want to create, but there's not enough money in this world to protect my sanity.Yes, girl, because when it impacts the mental health, it's the physical health, your emotional health, spiritual, like, it's all impacted.All, all of it.

Infusing Joy into Life and Embracing the Funny and the Joy

[35:16] Well, to end on a high note, because you are someone, I feel like, who really exudes joy and happiness. Like, your content is so inspiring, but it's also fun.Like, you are definitely, I feel like you're the fun friend.[35:31] And so I want to know, like, how do you infuse joy into your life?Because it radiates off of you and I just, for people who are looking to do the same or want to incorporate more of the same into their own lives. Oh, that's a good question. I think I just don't take life serious. I mean, obviously, yes, I can be serious when I need to be serious.It's like, that's a real s**t that happens in life.But I think I just realized that.[36:00] We need levity with joy in life because, yeah, life is really hard and I've always just found that being funny and looking for the funny and finding the joy in life makes me feel better. It just makes me feel better.I just, I don't know, I just, that's a really good question.I think, I know it's making me laugh, it's just that I always think about, I've always just been called silly.Like I'm just always been told I've been silly a lot, mostly my adult years, like just, cause I just love it.I just feel like, especially with the internet and life, it's just like, yeah, life can really suck.And I think maybe because I lost my mom almost 10, yeah, about 10 years ago.And I think, you know, going through that grief and depression and then like breaking out of it and finding joy again.I think I just witnessed my mom not really experience joy a lot.And that's not to say she wasn't a happy person, but I think that a lot of the women older than us were forced into these lives that maybe they wouldn't have chosen for themselves and they were made to feel like they had to subscribe to a particular life.And because now I just I've just made it a mission to, like, I'm not going to live like that.[37:26] I'm going to live my life on my own will. And I think doing that, it has made me see that, yeah, I want to embrace the funny and the joy.[37:37] Because it makes you happier and healthier.And we could get into the mental health stuff or like the studies or whatever that say like, you know, happiness helps you live longer.So it's just like, yeah, I just, oh, I just love joy.And I think when you have been so long in things that make you.Sad, so like, I've lost my mom, I was part of a cult. Yeah, I'm calling Hillsong a cult. Okay.Not wrong. Okay. You know, have gone through religious trauma, you know, mom trauma, like workplace trauma. I think when you've just gone through so much trauma, that is so exhausting and dark. It's just like, I just want to embrace the fun and the joy, because I'm not trying to go back there and be sad and depressed and beat on myself and be hard on myself.The world is hard enough.Let's laugh.[38:38] Yes. And you do it all so well and so fun and anytime you pop up on my feed, I just know that I'm in for, it's going to be a good time.So thank you for sharing that joy and that light with the world.I appreciate you. Thank you.So you got to tell us, tell everyone where they can find you, where they can find your best-selling 45,000 copies of these amazing books.Let us know. I will link obviously in the show notes. But just yeah, love for anything else you'd like to share, where they can find you and follow up on all the things.So you can find me on TikTok, Instagram, and Twitter at Oludara Adeyoyo.You can find my books almost anywhere, specifically, they're on Amazon, Barnes and Noble's, your favorite black-owned bookshop, most of them are carrying them.And I encourage you to buy from them if they sell online.Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. I really appreciate it. Thank you.Thank you so much for listening to the LT & the City podcast.If you enjoyed this episode, I encourage you to share it with a friend and ask them to check it out too.Resources and links from today's episode are available over on the show notes, and as always, you can find me on social media at L-T in the City.Thanks again for tuning in.[40:01] Music.

This month I interviewed Nathalie Walton, vice president of brand and social impact at Babylist. She’s also the former CEO and co-founder of Expectful, a holistic wellness app for hopeful, expecting, and new moms. We’re talking about all things maternal mental health in honor of Mother’s Day and Mental Health Awareness Month.

Transcript:

0:00] Music.[0:06] Hello, and welcome to the LT in the City podcast, your monthly dose of motivation, inspiration, and more.I'm your host, L'Oreal Thompson-Payton. On this show, we're all about leaving perfection at the door and showing up as our full, authentic selves.You'll hear from me along with some special guests about everything from life and love to work and wellness.So get cozy, because we're gonna get into it.[0:26] Music.[0:31] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the LT in the City podcast.Today, I am joined by Natalie Walton. Natalie is the VP of Brand and Social Impact at BabyList.She is also the former CEO and co-founder of Expectful, a holistic wellness app for hopeful, expecting, and new moms.In 2023, Natalie sold Expectful to BabyList, the leading vertical marketplace and commerce destination for baby.Natalie has an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business and a BA in Economics from Georgetown University.She's a Forbes Next 1000 Entrepreneurs to Watch and is on the Fast Company Executive Board.Welcome, Natalie. I'm so happy to have you.I'm so excited to be here today.[1:11] So I know we've talked a couple of different times or a few different publications and opportunities, but today I'm really excited to chat with you about the intersection of motherhood and mental health and wellness in honor of National Mental Health Awareness Month, which is May.And I know we both came to Expectful actually from similar places in life, which is grappling with our mental health while pregnant. Can you share a little bit more about your pregnancy and birth story and how that impacted your mental health? Absolutely. So I'm someone who has been a practicer of holistic wellness pretty much, I want to say my entire life. I first learned about Buddhism and meditation at a Buddhist monastery in Thailand in 2002. And so I did like a silent meditation retreat at a very young age. And I didn't quite fall into meditation at that time, but I was introduced to it. And so it was part of my life, but even having cultivated this like lifelong interest in and meditation and mindfulness when I got to pregnancy.[2:19] Everything shifted. And that's because really for the first time in my life, everything was out of my control. And I mean that in related to my health. So as someone who's into wellness, you can imagine like I was into what I ate, I was into my fitness. So I thought everything was going great throughout my pregnancy. And then I showed up at my 20 week scan and I was told that I was at risk for preterm labor. And I was told that I should be very vigilant because I could I could lose, I could have my baby at any time.If you hear that at 20 weeks, you know, there's a certain threshold where you need to.[2:55] Your baby needs to be more than 20 weeks.It's really difficult for a baby to survive. And so when I got that news, I was just, I had this huge burden, this mental burden of like, one, what did I do?Like, and is there anything I can do to help my baby get to term?Just like why it really, why is this happening to me? And I think on the first part.[3:21] One of the most frustrating things was what my doctors kept telling me was, we can't tell you what you did that caused this, if you did anything that caused this, all we know is that black women are at higher risk for preterm labor.And I kept thinking like, so you're basically saying because I'm a black woman, this is my fault because I'm a black woman.And it's just, yeah, so there was nothing I could do. I started living my pregnancy literally in terms of days. I would get to day 195 and I'd be thinking, okay, I make it to 196 and I have that much more of a percentage of my baby being a little bit healthier and maybe growing a fraction of an ounce. It created so much stress mentally for me. And even though I did have this meditation practice and I was practicing mindfulness, I came across this app called Expectful. And I started doing the meditations that were geared towards pregnancy. So like Expectful knew exactly where I was in my journey and the language just spoke to me and all of the fears and the doubts and the burdens that I was carrying. And somehow.[4:33] Even though I've been meditating, within a week after using Expectful's meditation, my condition stabilized and I made it to term, which was something that none of the doctors thought was possible. But there's actually a science behind it, and I now know the science, but it was really that getting into expect will help me get to term.[4:53] That is such an amazing and I don't even want to like reduce it to a success story because it's just like you said that overall mental health and well-being, there's so much emphasis on physical health when you're pregnant. And I, my only regret with Expectful is that I didn't come across it sooner because I think like you, I had, I checked all the boxes, right? I was still being active.I still had my streak going on Peloton, but I, and I was doing my edit meditations on Insight timer and shine at like other mental health and wellness apps. But what I found was dealing with PTSD from infertility and multiple IVF cycles. I had a lot of like anxiety once I was pregnant about something going wrong and the meditations unexpectful because they were specifically geared toward pregnancy. And then even knowing that I had to have a scheduled C-section, right? Like there's a section on C-sections, which can be overlooked a lot of times in the pregnancy world, they get a bad rap and it's really, you know, like not okay. So representation for all the C-section parents out there. But yeah, I'm just, I'm curious, like I said before, there's so much emphasis on the physical health. Why is it important as birthing parents that we focus on our mental health as well?[6:07] So I guess I want to talk about some of the research that we've done at Expectful and and just research on mindfulness and meditation and pregnancy overall, because this research is really exciting.So last year at Expectful, we published two studies. One was in the Journal of Perinatology, and this was an incredible study.So I was a NICU mom. I had that emergency C-section, which is part of the reason why we built out that C-section meditation pack.[6:38] So as a NICU mom, I found it incredibly hard to produce milk.If you have like an emergency C-section, you're often very stressed, like things come early and your body's not really prepared to produce milk.And so we did this study that looked at pumping NICU mothers and we gave them access to Expectful.And we found out that the control, the women who used Expectful against the control who do not use Expectful. We found that those women produce seven ounces more breast milk a day.[7:14] That's huge. I mean, I, at that stage, I remember going to the NICU and I had like little tiny vials of milk. Like if I could produce five milliliters, I was like, Oh, wow.Like this is, this is something. And so I was like really impressed. And, um, this study found that women who listened to expect will produce that much more milk. But on top of that, the The study also found that women who used Expectful, they had decreased episodes of postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, and they made it to term, which goes back to my story of how meditation and mindfulness practice is so important.We also did a study in the Journal of Midwifery and Women's Health.And this study also showed that women who used Expectful saw reduced episodes of depression during pregnancy and anxiety, which overall just leads to better outcomes.And then I'll reference a study that was published last year in UCSF.And this was a really interesting study in my opinion. So they looked at stress responses of babies.[8:26] So basically mothers during pregnancy were given meditation apps.And they looked at the stress responses in the babies of the mothers who had meditated during pregnancy.And the study found that women who meditated, their babies had better stress responses.This is after birth. So imagine like, if you wanna give your baby the best possible outcome, reducing their stress responses, try meditating. Like how incredible is that?[8:53] That's so awesome that you can give that gift. And by practicing mindfulness, really literally about like reading by example, right?And now there is science that proves that that works. And I can imagine that there are some moms, some busy parents listening to this, and they're like, well, that's nice for you too, that you were able to do that, but I don't have the time.[9:17] How do you fit it in? How do you prioritize mindfulness and meditation and your mental health with everything else that you have going on.I totally hear that. Like, I mean, I get it that especially so before you have a child, if this is your first child, there's, there's a lot more time than when you have a child.[9:37] So hopefully there, that you can find a time to fit in meditating before, but, but even if you can't, there's no judgment, no shade there. Um, what I like to do is I like to meditate before I go to bed, um, because it just helps me get a really great night's sleep. And I think everyone has very few people can fall asleep. Uh, the instant their head, you know, touches the pillow.And so I think like you can find a five or 10 minute meditation that will not only help you fall asleep faster, but also give you better sleep. And there's a lot of studies that show the meditation leads to improve sleep. And we all know that at least for me, sleep in pregnancy was horrendous as was sleep with a newborn. Um, so, so yeah, like that is how I I personally fit in, but with Expectful, we have everything from like walking meditations where you can wrap your baby.We have stroller meditations. We also have nursing and pumping meditation.So if you're choosing to feed, I mean, that is something where you have a lot of free time on your hands.And so rather than like stressing out about how do I fit this in, we think about meditation as like, well, here's all of this idle time that you have, or it's not idle, but it's It's time where you are not necessarily, you have time to meditate when you're nursing, when you're on a stroller, when you're on a stroller walk.And so that's how we've created Expectful, to fit it in into those buckets of time where you can use it.[11:04] Yeah, I'm all about kind of getting where you fit in. And the before times, you know, I was very rigid in my morning routine.Right. I did my workouts. I did my meditation. I did my devotional.And like it was very much like a checklist.And I could get it done because I had more time now. Mornings are a little chaotic.You know, like it's a rush to get dressed and get up and get ready and get to daycare. Today was picture day.So, you know, there was even more emphasis on the hair and making sure everything is like neat and tidy.And so the morning routine of yesteryear, I'm trying to now shift into, OK, it doesn't all have to take place in the morning.I can spread it out throughout the day. I can maybe even try to come up with a new bedtime routine and meditation and like fit it in there once she's, you know, like down for the night.But yeah, parenting has taught me a lot about flexibility that I did not have before.But that get in where you fit in is a mantra, a mood, a lifestyle when it comes to parenting?[12:03] Absolutely, 100%. And I know in the recent Fortune article, we talked about this Harris poll that was commissioned by CVS Health that said that 42% of working moms that surveyed were diagnosed with anxiety or depression last year, compared to 28% of the general population and 25% of their coworkers without kids.What do these numbers tell you? Like what story is it sharing and why do we need to be concerned?Yeah, I think, I mean, these numbers are very disturbing. They are disturbing because, I mean, that's a lot, like that's almost one out of every two people, two moms are impacted.And I think what's disturbing about it is that.It's just like there's a lack of societal help. That's what really startles me is that.[12:52] The government isn't coming to save us. Sometimes the employer is coming to save us marginally, like if you're so fortunate to be in a company that enables this. But oftentimes, it's just on the moms to figure this out. That's the story that it tells me. We just have a country that that we're living in with like very, it's broken.And that does not offer us the support that we need.[13:18] And how are you personally dealing with this? Because it's like you said, one thing when you're pregnant and it's like before, especially when it's your first kid, you have more time and that kind of like luxury, you know, of time and everything.And then once you are, once you're back to work, once you're, you know, like back from parental leave, everything kind of just comes at you all at once.What methods have you found to be helpful? How are you prioritizing your mental health as a working mom?What advice do you have for the rest of us? Because we are struggling.The working moms are not okay.Moms in general, parents in general, but especially I'd be like those of us who are living these dual lives, essentially, are having a really hard time right now.Yeah, no, I think we are having, everyone is having a really hard time.What has helped me is that I have had several friends have many more children. I just have one and some of my friends have three or four children and I don't know how they do it. And they're successful working moms. And I asked them like, how do you do it? And one of the things that they tell me is they really just look about, and from like a financial perspective of the first few years of being like a sunk to costs, where maybe it's something like, where you go into savings, or maybe you even marginally like go into that so that.[14:35] You can take care of your needs and you can stay sane because the payoff of working down the line is going to eventually pay off. But in order to have that payoff, you have to deal with the sacrifice of today and you have to prepare and take care of yourself as much as possible.And so when I thought about that mentality, I mean, that's not really a mentality that's widely discussed. Most people think I shouldn't go into my savings, I shouldn't go into debt to take care care of my kids. And I think that it's all in perspective. Like if you have the means or you can think about like, can I pay for a cleaner to come to my house so that I don't have to focus on, so I don't have to live in like a mess and particularly with the work from home culture, like if you're working from home and like that for me, I had that realization when I had my newborn and it was COVID lockdown and I was cleaning, I was doing all of this stuff and I was like, I can't do this.And I just thought, let me hire someone to help me clean. And it just freed up so much mental energy and stress.And it was expensive, but it was something that it was like an investment in my own mental health.And I realized that is just an investment that I'm going to have to make right now in my life. I think that that is one is like thinking about where can you bring in help to free up your mental space and doing activities that you like. I think we've talked about this before.[16:02] Like I don't like cooking. Amen. I don't, I don't.I wish I did, but I don't. And I don't like cooking for my child.He is a little bit of a pickier eater until like he's three years old.And I guess ever since the time he could eat solids, like I've subscribed to all of these baby food services, everything from square baby to the toddler.I I'm forgetting the names, but like little spoon, shout out a little bit.If you want to sponsor this, let me know.No little spoon should sponsor this because we get those deliveries like every two weeks and it just.[16:35] It makes your life easier. I mean, in my mornings now, all I do is I pop something in the microwave for 30 seconds. And rather than spending minutes and minutes of mind share of like, what do I eat? Or what do I feed my child? So it's like, I think about ways that are like, financially, are they financially friendly? No. I could be saving money in other ways and investing in my longevity. But what I'm supporting now is my mental health so that I can stay working and advance in my career, and I'm just going to hope that one day it's going to pay off, but I think it will.Yeah. And I appreciate your honesty about this, because I think a lot of times, and we do each other a disservice by not talking about what it's really like.And I have a colleague, Megan, who did an incredible story, per fortune, talking to different CEOs and women who are in the C-suite about how they get it done.And the secret is hired help a lot of times, or a family who lives nearby and they're pitching and that whole, it takes a village, yes, and sometimes you have to pay for certain parts of that village.But like you said, it's an investment.Everyone can't see this, listening now, but our background and my video screen is a hot mess because Easter brunch was the other day and we haven't cleaned up yet, but we are having the cleaner come in the next couple of weeks.We use little spoons, which has been a lifesaver because I also do not cook.My husband does the cooking and I love him for it, but meal planning and prepping for a family.[18:02] Requires a lot of mental energy and sitting down to make the list and make sure everything's healthy and make sure you go to the mark. And it's just like, we can cross something off of our list.Even for like random days when she's homesick from daycare and it's like, okay, well, we didn't plan for, you know, like to feed you three times a day because you get fed at daycare.It just helps alleviate that stress. And I think we just need to be more honest about what that looks like.And knowing too, for people, we can like, well, that's for CEOs.That's for, you know, like women who are higher up. It's for all of us, and it is a privilege.You've talked about this before, and even the fact that mental health is a privilege to be able to worry about that when there's so many other concerns that are happening, but I feel like it's that kind of both and.Two things can be true at once, and there's no shame. I think that's the other thing.There's so much stigma around the moms who don't, quote, do it all on their own.We were never meant to, and that's just not the way it's supposed to go.No, no, it is not at all. Yeah, and to come back to that part you mentioned about mental health being a luxury, because I love when you pointed that out in the previous conversation that we had, What?[19:10] Paint for us the picture, I feel like, what is going on? I know there was the percentage, I think it was 40% of moms who birthed on Medicaid or something like that.Yeah. So, I mean, one thing that became so apparent to me while working at Expectful is I did hundreds of user interviews.And I think we have really great retention metrics and just great conversion metrics overall.But there was this segment of people who were trying our app, would use it a lot during the free trial.You know, what you think they would subscribe. But there is a pocket I noticed that weren't subscribing. And so I started digging into that pocket and I started interviewing people.And what kept coming up time and time again was like, I loved using your app. I'm like a mom of five. Like I'm a mom of three. My mental health is in shambles. I need all of the support. But But to be frank, this month, I'm between paying for groceries or gas.And so I can't afford your app.I can't afford to take care of my mental health, even though it's only $5 a month. I can't afford that.It's just out of my reach. And my thought, when I kept hearing that over and over again, my thought is like, wow, I mean, no one should ever have to decide between their mental health, gas, or groceries.But unfortunately, getting back to the country they were living in, the society we're in.[20:38] There's no safety net.And that's what people are being forced to choose between. And so in many cases, I did see caring for your mental health is a luxury.Because if you... I mean, to not have to worry about feeding your family or paying to get to work to provide for your family.And when I started hearing that feedback over and over again, I really started looking at the numbers.I see that close to 50% of moms that give birth in the U.S., the babies are born onto Medicaid.I think the number is actually exactly what it is for the numbers of moms who have anxiety. It's 42%.There are some places in the South where that number is in the 60%.So it depends where you're talking to people.But the reality is if almost one out of two births in the U.S. are happening on Medicaid, if you were on Medicaid and you have food insecurity, like that is probably a bigger problem.It contributes to having poor mental health, absolutely. But like for many people, and this shouldn't be the way, but they need to figure out how to feed themselves before taking their care of their mental health. And that's awful.Yeah, it's that hierarchy of needs, you know, that we learn about and making sure that those are attended to first before kind of these.[21:55] Add-ons in quotation marks, because we know the value and the importance. And also, like you said, when it comes to making a decision between groceries and a mental health app, like, I need to eat, I need to feed my family. And that is really real. And like you said earlier, so much of this system and this country is broken, that it can be very, can leave you feeling very deflated and just kind of like pessimistic and nothing's ever going to change. And there's there's nothing we can do, but I like to think that we do need to change the system as a whole.And there's also things that we as individuals can do, but from where you are, like, what is your perspective on what needs to be done? What needs to change?Who needs to change it? And kind of where do we go from here?[22:39] Yeah, I mean, there's so many layers to this question. So I'd say that one of the biggest areas, most basic areas where we could start is paid family leave.I mean, I read lots of different statistics, but I think it's around a quarter of women in the U.S.Have access to paid family leave. And it starts there because, I mean, pregnancy is, it is a physical event.And I mean, it's people, when you go on, when you have a baby, people take disability leave.It is a disability. And so like having to work through that disability, not only does it hurt you physically, it hurts you mentally, and it's bad for the baby's development. Like there's just so many positive studies showing Give paid leave. So I think that that's where we could start is like offering paid leave.And who has to take care of that? That's on a government level right now. I mean, you have companies that are stepping into that, but I think that's something that's on a government level. The second thing is just affordable child care. I mean, child care.[23:38] Oftentimes... I had a friend who responded actually to the post that I wrote about your article, And she told me her childcare costs more than her mortgage to care for her two children. And, that's crazy, right? To me, that's just crazy. But that's the reality that we're living in.And so there could be more subsidies for childcare. I think that would be a huge help because that would enable parents to work more. It would free up the ecosystem. And that solution there is on the government level. And so I think that the biggest changes that could happen would be.[24:21] On the government level. And it's like, those things need to change.There are a lot of startups that are trying to solve mental health issues with mom and providing that village of support. But I think my frustration with those, and having been one of them too, and this is part of the reason why we sold Expectal so we could have more of an impact, is getting back to the problem. If half of the people in the country are not in a place to afford services to improve your circumstances, then it's like you're only helping the people that need help, that need help, but you're not helping the people that need help the most.And so I think that the government has to step in and provide that support.[25:03] Absolutely. There's so much that needs to happen. And I mean, I'm, like I said, an optimist.I'm hoping that things can change and it will be different for our children should they decide to have children.But hopefully it doesn't take a generation, you know, to make it better.But it has to, it has to change. The system is fundamentally broken and we are all struggling as a result of it.And something that has personally helped me, me, it took a while to get to this point, but was learning to ask for help.So we talked about the hiring of help, but then also like reaching out to friends, hiring babysitters, like getting that additional support before s**t hits the proverbial fan.And I don't know if you are similar and like, I can get it done. I can do it all.I can do that. Do you have any advice for the people listening, the working moms who are tuning in on how to ask for help? but something that seems so easy and yet it is so extremely difficult.[26:01] Yeah, no, it is. I mean, this was something like I had to struggle with immensely when I became a mom was how to ask for help and realize that it's okay not to do it all yourself.I mean, this is one place where if you have the resources for a therapist, I think like therapy is great. And that's because it's a whole different mind shift. It's something that maybe like in your childhood or your early adulthood, the way you were raised might prevent you from asking for help. And like there are deeper issues here that cause people to not ask for help. I struggled for some of them. And for me, I personally found that.[26:36] Going to therapy and understanding like, why don't I feel comfortable of making my needs?No. That was a really, it was an eye-opening experience. And I think that's been one of the best parts about becoming a parent is that personal growth that happens. So if that is something that is of someone has access to, I'd highly recommend getting a therapist in pregnancy to prepare for a postpartum to support you in that time. But other than that, I think it's understanding that like, there's just no shame in asking for help. And I mean, the worst thing that can happen is someone will say, no, I can't help you. And yes, that sucks, but it's like, it's the same place that you're in right now. And so like the benefit is, you know, you can ask for help and, and you could get the help. But like, if the person says no, then it's just like, you will have hurt feelings, but you're still going to be in the same place that you are.So that's how I've kind of look at it.[27:27] Getting a therapist and I, cause I've been in therapy since 2016, coincidentally enough considered with the election and inauguration, but you know, for obvious reasons, but then I actually switched therapists late last year because I realized similar to when I was using the other apps and then I switched to Expectful, I was like, I need something different in this season of life.And so I intentionally sought out, I went to therapy for Black girls at 3 a.m.After another crying bout because I just was feeling overwhelmed.Like I wasn't doing any of the jobs that I have as a mom, as a employee, as a writer and author, like wasn't doing any of them well.She wasn't sleeping. We weren't sleeping. It was just like a lot going on.And I was like, I need someone who specializes in this season that I'm in right now and has a background in infertility and knows how that has impacted my experience and postpartum depression and everything.And now I have this wonderful therapist and she is amazing who can speak to all of that and understands and gets it because she's also gone through IBF.And so it's just being able to relate and not having to explain so much about my background and what I've been through and what it looks like has been really helpful.It took, that was I think about six or eight months postpartum to finally get to a hey this.[28:50] What I'm doing right now has served me well in the past but it's no longer serving me and I need need to make a change.There's nothing more important I'd say than finding help that gets what you're going through.I think like as a new mom, I had to switch therapists quite a bit. Like one, I needed a black woman, like someone that could understand racially everything that I was going through.I also needed someone like a parent, because if you have people that aren't parents, like there's no worse advice than getting an outsider. So it's like, it's very important to find someone that understands your needs because your needs are so different from like, even like where you live, having someone locally, it matters, makes a difference. So my advice is if you've struggled with therapy in the past and it hasn't been the right fit for you, like try searching. There are really very specific types of therapists. Yeah. It's okay to break up with good therapists, y'all. You're not locked and bound into this contract and it's like dating, you know, You know, you got to shop around and find the right fit for you.And it can make all the difference for your mental health. It is a worthwhile investment to do the research and to pivot and try again when it's not working out. There's no shame.This is a safe space. You know, like, do what you need to do by any means necessary to get it done.[30:09] Now, and I want to end on a high note, something that I want to incorporate into every interview and ask people, because there is so much going on in the world every day, there is something, like literally something.And it will be something else by the time this airs as well.So I want to know, like, what is bringing you joy? What's making you happy right now?What are you looking forward to? Well, it is this weekend, we just had our first lovely spring day and I'm in California, which apparently where I live in San Francisco, it is a federal disaster zone. Oh, great.[30:42] Yeah. Well, the pleasure of that is that apparently I get an extension on filing my taxes.But I share that and that it's been raining so much that I'm in a federal disaster zone.So it's been a gloomy winter and just to have like that warm sun on my face and like hear the birds chirping again and feel spring and rebirth, it feels so alive and like invigorating.And so that's what's just giving me joy right now is the, we're in a season of rebirth and in so many different forms. And so that's what I'm excited about is like rebirth.And maybe this is perfect timing because I'm talking to you the day after Easter.Yeah, no, it's same here.And people always joke like Chicago just, we don't really have a true spring, right?It goes straight from like winter to summer and like we get a little fake spring for two weeks or so.And I think we're in that sweet spot right now where the sun is out, we can go back to walking to and from daycare and the days are longer.So it's starting to feel a bit more hopeful, I feel like, It has been lately.And then just another question, because I'm personally curious and our kids are not too far apart.Any advice for surviving these toddler, these early toddler years and him.[31:57] It's a ride. It's a wild ride. Yeah, it is a wild ride. I mean, like, I want to say like, it gets better, but like, that's not very nice to the toddlers. It gets more amusing, like I'm more amused. I mean, it's a different type of parenting, like it's a different journey, but I'd say that what I love about it is getting back to just the personal growth that you have, it's like learning how to be a conscious parent and be there for your child in the way that your child needs you. It's a really like a beautiful like growth opportunity. And so I think what is really fun is like your child continues to grow as if you open and you welcome the challenge that parenting brings you. I think the reward is seeing is how you meet them there. And so that is a really fun is seeing the personal growth that my child has spurred in me.[32:48] Yeah. It's interesting, right? Because each phase I feel like has its own challenges and rewards. And now that she's like developing a personality and talking, you know, and figuring things out, it's just kind of like, whoa, you're.[33:03] You're a whole little person. And yeah, for me, learning to regulate my emotions so that I can come to her from a calm and more like less disoriented space, it's been practice for both of us. I feel like it's, I'm learning so much from her And I feel like that's just kind of like what parenting is, I guess, right?They teach us and we teach them and we help each other grow and learn.It is. Yeah, that's parenting in a summary right there. Yeah.Well, is there anything else you'd like to add? You want to share with people before we head out?No, this was just so I always love talking with you and I love what you're doing.And yeah, I hope that I can stay in contact with your readers.If you want to follow me on Instagram, I'm at NatalieWalton, it's N-A-T-H-A-L-I-E-W-A-L-T-O-N.I also just built a website, it's www.NatalieWalton.com and that's with an H, so N-A-T-H-A-L-I-E-W-A-L-T-O-N.com.I'm active on LinkedIn and I encourage you to check out Expectful on Instagram.I think we have a really great feed. We're at Expectful and also give a shout out to BabyList.They have a cool feed on Instagram too.Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Natalie, for joining us. It was great having you and yeah, we will definitely keep looking forward to it. Thank you so much.[34:28] Thank you so much for listening to the LT & the City podcast.If you enjoyed this episode, I encourage you to share it with a friend and ask them to check it out too.Resources and links from today's episode are available over on the show notes.And as always, you can find me on social media at LTInTheCity.Thanks again for tuning in.[34:44] Music.

Transcript:

Hey y'all, I'm back with another episode. This time I want to tell you about the time I girlbossed too close to the sun. As you may recall, if you subscribe to my weekly newsletter, what's you should definitely check out if you haven't already. April was a month. I knew going into it that it was going to be a lot like six speaking engagements, two podcasts interviews, two freelance stories and two trips to the West Coast within two weeks, kind of a lot.

But when my friend Marissa asked me what I was going to do to keep my sanity, I was like yoga and meditation, as if somehow that would be enough. Now if Morgan Freeman were narrating my life, he would say she would soon learn that it was not enough.

It all came crashing down on me one fateful Wednesday afternoon, I was on deadline for god knows what. And also desperately needed to find an outfit to wear to this work conference I was at last week, I was going to be moderating the panel and facilitated a mindfulness moment. So I want it to look really good.

This on top of the fact though, that between the pandemic and pregnancy, literally nothing in my closet fits. And I've been having a really hard time finding clothes, let alone professional clothes that flatter this postpartum body.

So Jeff, my husband, happened to be at Zara on his lunch break, and I asked him if he could find something for me, too. He did. And we spent the next 20 minutes or so on FaceTime putting together different outfits. But if you know us in real life, then you know, he's the more fashionable one out of the two of us. So it was really him putting together the outfits.

While while that was happening, I got an “at” in a DM on Slack. And I don't know why. But that really sent me over the edge. And when I saw it, after I'd finished talking to Jeff, I slid down the kitchen cabinets and cried on the floor. I was so overwhelmed. I was doing too much. And I needed more than just yoga and meditation.

Thankfully, I had therapy in 10 minutes. And usually my meltdowns tend to happen days after therapy. And I have to wait two weeks for my next session. But this time, my body and brain finally got it together. And I was grateful.

My therapist also knowing all along that I needed more than yoga and meditation suggested I triage my to do list instead of trying to do it all at once, like I always do. hearing her say it made sense. But it wasn't until I busted out my notes app and broke down what I needed to do. And when I needed to do it, that I started to feel some of that anxiety lift.

Sure, there may still be 15 things on my to do list. But they don't all need to get done today. What's the most important thing read singular thing that I needed to do today, and the next day and the day after that.

Whereas I typically try to have a bird's eye view of what's going on in my life at all times. That particular perspective isn't helpful when it comes to managing one's anxiety around trying to do all the things I needed to prioritize.

And I needed to triage, I also needed to take an honest look at how I got here in the first place. In an effort to avoid the same mistakes in the future. I'd been joking with a few friends that the month of April would be a really good test run for my upcoming book tour this summer, and serve as a good lesson on how to manage my time and energy. Essentially, I crashed and burned.

And I do not want to do that this summer when it comes to the book tour or any other point in my life. And so I'm using the month of May, as a reset, I'm looking at those learnings from the previous month and apply them to this month. And we're only two days in but so far, so good. I am getting better at saying no to different requests.

And I'm also learning to leave more whitespace on my calendar to allow for life's unexpected joys and opportunities that come along that I can't necessarily plan for, you know, the month ahead the month ahead, rather. And yeah, it's been an interesting experiment. And I'm also incorporating more movement because my workouts also kind of fell by the wayside last month.

So I'm being really intentional about that as well. And I also want to get back into more mindfulness and meditation because I also, even though I said I was gonna do yoga and meditation, I didn't actually do those things. So I'm really excited for next week's conversation. Our monthly conversation for May is going to be with Nathalie Walton, who is the VP of brand and social impact at Babylist.

She's also the former CEO and co founder of expectable, a holistic wellness app for hopeful expecting and new moms. And if you knew me when I was pregnant, then you know how much this app means to me. It was just instrumental in everything that I was going through with perinatal depression, postpartum depression and anxiety, PTSD after infertility, literally all the things so I'm really excited to chat with Natalie, because it's May it's Mother's Day, it's mental health awareness month and maternal mental health is so so important to me and it's going to be a really good interview. So I hope you'll tune in and I'll talk to you then take care

Y’all, I’m so excited to share with you the first interview for the podcast: my good friend and award-winning poet, singer and songwriter Pam R. Johnson Davis. This month we’re talking about creativity, jealousy, friendship and so much more! Be sure to follow Pam on Instagram, subscribe to her newsletter and buy her books.

Transcript:

[0:00] Music.[0:06] Hello and welcome to The LT in the City Podcast, your monthly dose of motivation, inspiration, and more. I'm your host, L'Oreal Thompson Payton. On this show, we're all about leaving perfection at the door and showing up as our full, authentic selves. You'll hear from me along with some special guests, about everything from life and love to work and wellness. So get cozy, because we're gonna get into it.

Hello everyone, and welcome to The LT in the City podcast. I'm your host, L'Oreal Thompson Payton, and today I have a very special guest. Pam R. Johnson Davis is an award-winning poet, speaker, historian, and singer-songwriter who is curious, questioning, humorous, and tender. Her work has garnered numerous accolades, including the coveted Reader's Favorite Poetry Book Award and two Global Music Awards. You can find her on Instagram @unapologeticallypam. I am so, so excited today, y'all.Pam is my best friend, my sister, my like fellow BeyHive member. And I just, this is going to be a great conversation.It's going to be wonderful. Pam, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me. Not me immediately singing Beyonce in my head, like, I didn't want this power.But do I. I do want this. I want to be. You do.And you're great. And I love that for you.[1:27] We're doing it. Y'all, so for a little bit of background, We have talked for years about doing some kind of podcast conversation situation.And so finally we're making it happen. And I'm especially excited because it's National Poetry Month.And as I already mentioned, Pam here is an award winning, best selling poet.Get into that.Get into it. L'Oreal is the person who consistently tells me to own my shine, stand in my power, do all of the things, and I am still very awkward, but trying to get better at saying yes, I am all of those things, while also remaining the person I am, who is actually very down-to-earth, clumsy, and joyful. And just all-around wonderful human being. And so, creative to creative, I have to know I'm very much interested in everyone's origin story. When and where did you first fall in love with writing?[2:27] Oh my gosh, I love this question. I have a lot of early memories of writing. So one of the first early memories that I have is my mother was like really adamant that me and my siblings would, be able to speak in front of a crowd, to be able to read and share stories. Like she had this idea almost of like grandeur that we would be able to stand in front of an audience and say, Hello, my name is Pam and this is my story. So she literally got me a tutor to start teaching me to read and I was reading pretty fluently by the age of three. Yes. Come on baby genius.[3:07] Shout out to all the good teachers and tutors and the mothers who hire them.So I was reading and writing pretty early on because of that. And I've always been a really He imagines his person, which I don't know is always celebrated, you know, if you're always living in your head as a kid.I don't know. Sometime in adulthood, that stuff gets kind of stamped out of us, but I'm really grateful that as a writer, I've been able to retain some of that sense of wonder and imagination.But so I started writing around three, four, five. I started writing these little short stories and performing them in front of my parents.Maybe Pam.Maybe. It was either I was sharing my own stories or I was reenacting the movie Pocahontas from start to finish, songs included.Yes. To an audience of my mother and father.[4:02] Again, shout out to them for being present during that time.From there, the moment that I can really define. So it's like all of these were little seeds being laid in my garden of writing, right?Getting that tutor at the age of three, and learning to really like understand the shapes and the design of letters and words and all of the things.And then starting to write my own little stories. And then there was this moment, there was this moment.We got one of those big back Dell computers. Now, if you are younger, you might not remember the time before laptops, but there was a time when like a computer was real heavy, like 200 pounds, big back.It wasn't connected to the internet or nothing, but it had notepad on it.And that was the first time I had access to that at home. I was maybe nine or 10.[4:53] I wrote this insane book.Beautiful, weird fiction story about a little girl who finds a wonderland in the forest and escapes the real world to go and live in that wonderland as often as she could.And there's all kinds of characters, talking squirrels, talking flowers.There's communities in the forest and all of these things.I spent an entire summer writing that story, developing all the characters, and just finally letting all that imagination and wonder that normally lived in my head out onto paper.I typed the last word, I put the end, I felt so accomplished, and then that big, bad computer broke down.No! And the story was lost forever. That is a tragedy. I'm a little kid.I don't have no emotional regulation. I cried for like two months.[5:54] I would too, I don't blame you. No, that's, yeah.Yeah, that was the moment though that I fell in love because I realized how much I cared, about it, how much I had put myself into that story and how much of my brain power had gone into making it and then for it to be gone, never to be seen again. I could never recreate it again.That was the moment that I knew that I was in love with it and that writing really meant something to me and I feel like again if everything else was seeds in the garden, that moment, that failure was the foundation being laid, and the rest has grown from there.I love that. And I have never heard this story, which I mean, for how long, how long have we known each other? Like five years or so?[6:43] Just, it's very interesting how much we can trace back to our childhoods.And I know we joke all the time about being the same person, but like, actually the same person.Because I vividly remember when I was six. So I also started writing at three.I don't know when I started reading, but there's like a picture of me and my sister.Hey, April. She's like a little baby propped up in the corner and I'm writing next to her with this laptop, not a laptop, I'm a liar. I was three.It wasn't a laptop. It was a notebook in my lap is what I was trying to say.And I'm like scribbling in my little baby handwriting and whatever, I have no idea what I was writing.And like, every time I told the story, it changed because I was three.So like, I was just making it up as I went.But when I was six, like in the summers, my sister and I would spend the days with our grandparents while our parents were at work. And I wrote this story about dinosaurs in outer space and illustrated it as well.[7:38] And- Honest? Wait, you were drawing too? I was drawing, girl, back in the day.And my dad, when he came to pick us up that evening, was like, I told, cause of course I was excited.I was like, daddy, look, I wrote this story. And he's like, oh, you should add it to your reading log for the summer reading challenge at the library.And I was like, I don't know, are you sure? Like, it's not a real book.I'm not a real author, right? Like even at six, I had this idea of like what was real art and what wasn't.And his theory was, well, if you wrote it, then you read it.And I was like, okay. And I was so afraid.I thought the librarian for sure was gonna like catch on and like, hey, the name on the card is the same as the name on this list and like deny me my little t-shirt, right, for eating the reading challenge, I don't think she cared.But that stood out to me as a moment where I was like, oh, I'm a real writer.Like I'm an author and here is my book.I am absolutely obsessed with that story. I'm also absolutely obsessed with your dad's, but your dad, I don't know that your dad knew that he was instilling in you that do you write, than you're a writer. Yeah.A young and tender age to be told no.[8:55] You did that and that makes you this means that you were able to sort of submit that into your developing brain that is at I'm obsessed. Okay. Shout out to daddy. Shout out to the parents who pour into you know because it sticks with you obviously like here we are as adults grown ass women telling these stories from our childhood these seeds that were planted and I'm curious to know like where you draw your inspiration from as a singer, a songwriter, like you are literally one of the most creative people I know, like you and Beyonce, although I don't know her personally yet.[9:33] So, I'm not going to say yet. But the Virgo energy is very strong.So I just got to know like more about the inspiration and your process.If there, you know, is one that you attach yourself to or like how that works, just let us know.I don't have a specific process, which is always really interesting for people to find out.I, well, I don't know, maybe this is a process. I was about to say, carry a notebook everywhere.And I was like, wait a minute, that is kind of a process. That's part process, yes.How do I write and where do I get inspired?I know this may sound cliche, but I get inspired by everything.I remember one of the first poems, I'm gonna tell you all a little bit more about who I am.So if you don't know me, I am very happily married now and have a home and a life that I really love, but that has not always been the case. I've survived a lot of trauma from the age of seven.[10:28] Honestly to about 30, if I can keep it real with you. I have, I married very early, went through a divorce, I experienced homelessness, had to humble myself and go to the government to get food stamps and all sorts of things. I've lived a lot of life and during, especially during the time where I was going through my separation and then divorce and experiencing homelessness and doing all the things.[10:55] Luckily, I had the foundation of being a writer, a person who would journal often or would write about things that I saw.And one of the very first poems that I wrote while I was literally experiencing homelessness, sleeping in my car, looking up out the window, was this poem about the stars.It wasn't about what I was experiencing like on a larger scale at that time.It wasn't about the divorce.It wasn't about the pain that I was going through. it was about the wonder of looking up at the night sky and seeing all of these lights shining on me at a time where I felt I was very much in the dark and very much not seen and very much lost. And it was like the stars were this map that were guiding me to something new and different. So I wrote this poem about it. But the reason I was able to is because I had a notebook with me. I have been a person who has always, always carried something to to write with.And it was never with the intention of being like, I'm gonna be a published author.I'm gonna write this poem to share with people. It was me trying to make sense of my life.And I know that I do that best when I put pen to paper.And so I always have this notebook with me and I write about the things that I see.So that's a specific story, but it applies to my everyday life.Even before we got on this podcast interview, I was writing down what I hope to be true.Now, would that become a poem someday or something I would share more broadly, who knows? Bye.[12:25] I feel inspired by the world around me. I feel inspired when I see my cat taking a bath, like a sun bath, you know, right by the window. I feel inspired when I see our mail delivery person hold the door for someone. I feel inspired when I have a good meal.Amen. Amen.[12:46] When I get some good food, I'm like, hold on now, I just need to write that down.I really do see, continue to see, oh gosh, man, I just feel like I had an epiphany.That little girl who saw imagination and wonder everywhere. I feel like that's who I am now.And that's why I write about things that I see that inspire me.See things that seem very simple.Like, oh my gosh, a bird just landed in a nest. How beautiful.But then my brain is like, oh my gosh, that a nest is up there.That means that bird has babies up there. And oh my gosh, what's their first flight gonna be like?And oh, wow, let me write this down.I just, I don't know. I see wonder everywhere around me and I carry a notebook with me always so that I can write about it.And that's kind of my process.[13:31] Be inspired anywhere. That's it, like period. Mic drop, right?But I think sometimes, especially I spend way too much time on Twitter and there's like all of these webinars and workshops and people sharing this like 12 step process And for me, at least, it really, it's not that deep.Right, like I think now as a mom and author and like all these other things, I've had to become a bit more disciplined in my process, but it's still kind of a hot mess if I'm being honest, like inspiration strikes anywhere and anytime.Like I wrote a lot of the chapters in the book while I was nursing Violet in the middle of the night in those very early months.But if I had waited for like the perfect time and let me get to the coffee shop with my oat milk latte and lo-fi hip hop playing in the background, like the book wouldn't exist.It wouldn't be because that perfect moment just is not, it's not real.It's a myth. And we have to like detach ourselves from like, oh, once I had this or once I check this off and once I do that, then I'll like, no, just start now, start messy, but just start.Literally, yes. And I think that's one of the beautiful things too is when I say I carry a notebook around, Let me be more specific.[14:49] Sometimes that notebook is the notes app on my phone. Sometimes it is an audio journal on my phone.Sometimes it is an old receipt that I got from, I don't know, Mariano's, no, Dollars.CVS, because you know they got them long ass receipts. CVS, they basically give you a script background for you to write everything down on.That carry around a notebook can look like a lot of things. Something that allows you to get what you're carrying out on paper or out of your brain in some way for you to go back to. That's more what I mean. So, I love when you use the real literal. I was going to say analogy, but I'm like, that wasn't no analogy, wasn't no metaphor. It was real life. Up late at night, nursing by like literally being like, huh, I have an idea for the book. But also on the flip side, I feel like, and this could be be an outside looking in perspective. I feel like you are much more disciplined about structuring time for writing. Like if I call you or text you and you're like I'm working on a chapter for this or I'm working on a story for this, it.[15:54] Feels to me from the outside looking in that you do, you are able to somehow build in a lot of structure for your writing. How do you do that?Listen, I think it was by force because there was a deadline for this book that I pushed back a few times.So thanks, Rachel, if you're listening, for being super understanding, because it was the perfectionist in me that was dragging my feet and procrastinating or writing because I had it in my head that I had to submit this perfect first draft.And those words don't go together. Like, that's just not a thing that exists, a perfect first draft.Like when it was like, okay, there's, you know, there's deadline, there's a contract.[16:35] High to this as well. That's a good motivating force, right? I had to be like, okay, you know, like we, we got to, we got to sit down and get this done. I got to call Jeff in to, you know, like watch her, take her away. Let me have like an hour or two to focus. But it was, I think, out of sheer necessity that I had to become more disciplined this time around and writing a book with a full-time job and a baby because time is so scarce.I didn't have time to waste like I did before, or just kind of like, oh, when the urge strikes me or whatever, it was like, no, there's a real deadline.And this, if you don't meet it, it's gonna push everything else back.And there are people waiting for you, like both agent and the publisher and the editor and everything, but then also people who are listening now and subscribers and my followers and everything.It's like, I don't wanna disappoint everyone else, So I gotta get it together. I gotta do this.[17:25] To be clear, you're talking about me because I want to read it.I'm ready to read Stop Waiting for Perfect.And it's been a process and continues to be a journey. And I know that you kind of walked the walk first, and I'm very grateful for that because you can share your learnings and your wisdom.And because we're keeping it all the way real here, the first book, when that dropped, I remember, Summer 2020.And you had told me, I was like, oh my gosh, that's exciting.And then like we had talked a week or two later and I was like, girl, I got to be honest with you, because I saw the card at the this bookstore that I was at in Oak Park after I got my hair done.And I was like, the card said, I'm 97% happy for you and 3% jealous.[18:11] And I was like, I feel so seen. And I was so I don't even know that I was scared to share that with you because you are a safe space for me.And because our friendship is so deep and so real and so authentic and vulnerable, I felt safe sharing this otherwise very kind of like taboo thing that we don't openly talk about, right?Like we're human, people are jealous and yet it's frowned upon, you know, in this society.So no one says anything. And I was just like, this is where I'm coming from and how I'm feeling. And you received that and didn't judge me and held space.And so I just wanna know what that was like from your perspective, like where you sat in receiving that and just like how you've navigated jealousy and relationships and friendships and creativity.Because like I said, Twitter, I every Tuesday people are announcing book deals.And before I got mine, I was like, mute, mute, mute.I just stopped going on Tuesday, like all together. I was like, no, I can't because I know what people are.And I was I was jealous. It can be a motivating force and use for good, and it can also get really ugly.And so, yeah, I'm just curious to know what your experience has been with jealousy.[19:25] Oh, L'Oreal, you are my best friend. I remember when I had decided that I was going to publish that first book of poems. I was so nervous to tell you.I was really, really, I don't know, I was really anxious. But it wasn't even just about telling you, knowing that you also are going to be an author.[19:49] Because I feel like I've always known that, you've always known that you would be an author.And at the time you were still querying, you were still working to get that book done, okay?And transparently, the poems in my first book were poems that I wrote, again, while I was going, it was written over the course of seven years, of going through my separation, then my divorce, the experiencing homelessness, the finding myself, learning to love myself again, therapy, finding new love and learning to accept that love, and then falling head over heels into that love, getting married again and trying to build a home with someone after you feel that you failed the first time. That book is all of that experience in that journey over seven years, but transparently that book was never meant to be published. I wrote all of those poems for myself. I had no intention of ever publishing them ever. And I had what I would call a spiritual moment that led me to decide to publish that book. And when I made the decision, the first person I wanted to tell, aside from my husband, was L'Oreal. I wanted to I'm gonna tell L'Oreal immediately.But then to your point, that 97% excited, 3% jealousy, that 3% jealousy part, I was like, oh no, oh no, oh no.What will L'Oreal say? What will she think?Will she be okay? Will she hate me?[21:15] Will she feel like, why you ain't tell me you were publishing a book?What's happening right now? I felt a lot of emotions or things, but I'm so happy that I trusted you with it because that moment solidified for me.I was already like L'Oreal is definitely one of my soulmates, like my soul knew her already before I knew her in the flesh. Like my soul knew her and was waiting for her.[21:39] And I was like, what if this is the moment where we're no longer friends?And instead, L'Oreal brought all of her humanity into this conversation with me, the joy, the excitement, the 3%, all of it.And I felt so at ease and so present and so loved and so held and so seen.Because maybe I too have a lot of jealousy. Let me give you all an example.I have a lot of musician friends who write all kinds of really cool music.One time, I had a musician friend who had written a song that I love, and this friend submitted it to this magazine for a big music magazine to be reviewed. They're very selective about who they choose to review music for, and they did an interview with my friend and like published the cover art of their song and all of these things, and I was like, oh my gosh, how exciting.I'm working on music, I'm going to apply to that magazine when my music comes out.Spoiler alert, I never even hear back from them. They didn't even send me a rejection.They just, all of my follow-ups just went unanswered.And I remember feeling like, no, what do my friend have that I don't have?I know my music just as good. And then, through much prayer and invocation, through AKA therapy, and like helping me process. Shout out to therapy.[23:07] Sitting with my therapist and helping me process that feeling of both still being over the moon for my friend this is a big deal.You got a magazine feature for your song while dealing with my own grief.[23:20] Of being not only rejected, but just Ghosted. Invisible.Yeah, literally ghosted, disappeared from it.I need it.My therapist taught me that I needed to honor my full humanity just like L'Oreal did with me bringing her full humanity into that conversation, I needed to keep that same energy for myself and honor my full humanity I can feel both joy for my friend and grief for myself at the same time. We are complex beings We are capable of carrying both emotions and now with time things change now.[23:54] I've forgotten about that moment until L'Oreal asked this question and now I can laugh about it because because it's been a few years and it's like, hey, things happen.I've had lots of other opportunities that have come between now and then.But at the moment, it felt like that was going to be my only opportunity.And because my friend had that opportunity and got it and I didn't get it.No one's ever going to love me.Listen, I feel that on a spiritual level, for many reasons, that scarcity mindset is real.And my favorite yoga teacher, Peloton instructor, shout out to Dr.Chelsea Jackson Roberts always talks about the both and, because I experienced it and you were there at the thick of it when we were struggling with infertility and everybody.So background for those of y'all who don't know us in real life or in social media, Pam and I, real life friends, but also worked together for a period of time.And I think I counted that summer about like 12 people who were pregnant or on leave, or like at some part of that.[24:57] And baby, the jealousy was real and happiness for them. Actually, I remember the holiday party where you being the incredible human being that you are and seeing how I was struggling in a moment when we learned that a coworker was expecting and again, we were a height of our struggle, even though if we had started IVF yet, I don't think so, but we're like, let's go ahead and leave and go to, I forget where we went, but we got pie.I remember we got pie and food is one of my love languages and you know that.And so you held me in that space physically like literally and figuratively.And I just felt so safe and so seen and so supported. And it just really speaks to the testament of who you are but also what friendship can be because I think oftentimes it's so superficial or you're worried about, I can't say this because I'm gonna offend this person and I can't share how I really feel because what if it's not received well?But when you have a true friend, you can show up as your full, authentic, imperfect, messy self.And that is such a blessing. And I'm so grateful for you for being that person for me.[26:11] Literally, I'm gonna try not to cry. Sam, you show up for me at times where I don't even know that I needed someone to show up.There has been, as I alluded to, I've experienced a lot of trauma, decades worth of trauma at the hands of folks who were supposed to love me, which then makes it difficult for you to believe, even in your fully grown adult self, that when someone says they love you, that they mean it.And that means that they will love you when you are imperfect and when you are struggling and when things are bad and things are hard. And because of that, I tend to like, I don't know, go into myself and just like cover myself and just hide in the shell for a while. And y'all, literally, I did that one time. And L'Oreal was like, girl, you got to let me know when you about to go into this shell. Okay, because I need to know you all right. Yeah. And it just, it made me both laugh and cry. And then she sat with me, like L'Oreal literally sat with me as I told her this story of this particular grief and the trauma that I was experiencing at the time. And L'Oreal, you didn't judge me, you didn't invalidate me, you did all of the opposite, actually. You sat, you held me, you held my hand. We were in public too, and I'm trying not to cry in public, and you were like, let it, come on, let me hold your hand, let me hug you, let me be with you in this moment.[27:37] This is the kind of love where you get to feel safe, to say I am experiencing the 97% and the 3%.This is the kind of love where you're safe to say, I'm hurting, I'm grieving, I'm lost, I'm worried, I'm happy, I'm joyful, I'm scared, I'm nervous, and know that you're going to be seen or held.And I know that I'm not alone in the experience of saying, it is not often that you find that love. So when you do.Hold on. Baby. Baby. Hold on. Because to be loved by a black woman in particular is.[28:16] It's a religious experience. It is spiritual, it is special.And growing up, I had my own, like working out to do with my blackness and accepting that and embracing it.And now I fully live into it.And growing up wasn't always the case. This was the Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera era and black girl magic wasn't trending.Michelle Obama wasn't an Obama yet, right? Like Beyonce was still in Destiny's Child.And so like all of these examples that we have now, I didn't see back then and internalized a lot of self-hate and just as a product of the environment I grew up in, literally my family was the first black family to move into our neighborhood.I was one of two black girls in my graduating class at an all-girl Catholic high school.And so I didn't have, until I got to college, a lot of close black friends.And that was even like one or two, but I think now, you know, like on one hand.And so it wasn't until adulthood and meeting you and developing this sisterhood that I was like, oh, I get it now.This is special.This is really special.[29:33] And y'all, we can kiki all day because I relate to so much of what you just shared too, which I won't just rehash all of that here, but same, same.Growing up and being seen as either one of the good blocks, which, girl, I just, you know. Problematic.[29:53] Incredibly problematic. So growing up and having that experience or being the only one in the room or experiencing that internalized oppression where you're being taught to be wary of other black women and other women.So then you don't know if you're safe or you don't know who to trust or where to go.And then, child, you have to do the work to unlearn so much of what society teaches you about your blackness and about your womanhood and then about your black womanhood, period.And it feels really wonderful to have gotten to this place now, where it is one of the things that I trust most in my life, is my own black womanhood and your black womanhood and having this sisterhood that we've built and knowing that this also isn't the end and that there will be other black women that I will meet who will value me and see me and hold me and care for me and love me.You haven't met all the people who are gonna love you yet and all the people that you then get to love in return.It's just, it's like a whole new world has opened up and I will refrain from singing the song, but a whole new world has opened up indeed and it's beautiful.[31:04] Loving a Black woman is beautiful, y'all. Loving a Black woman, being loved by a Black woman, like we're it. We're everything. And it is so beautiful. So beautiful to see and to witness and experience.And that is something, too, that I just love about you and showing up.Like I said, I feel like a broken record now.But as your full authentic self, and I mean, it's in the name, right? Your Instagram is unapologetically Pam.And for those of us who are starting that journey or curious about it and trying to become our own unapologetic selves, what advice do you have?How have you managed this? And yeah, just any kind of words of wisdom, that words of wisdom you can pour into others who are hoping to do the same.I love this question.And there are many things that I could say as an answer. But the one thing that's really on my heart right now is becoming unapologetically yourself is a journey.I don't think there's a destination. I don't think there's an arrival point where you're like, I'm it, this is it, this is the end.Unless it's the end. You know what I mean? And so it is a journey, one.[32:21] And on that journey, you will have to practice radical self-acceptance over and over and over and over again.You will have to accept your feelings.You'll have to accept your experiences as valid and as real.You will have to accept your grief. You will have to accept your pain.You will have to acknowledge truths about yourself that you have run from.And it is scary. I highly recommend that you talk to a professional that you work with someone through this, if you can.And that professional, for many therapeutic modalities, If therapy itself is not for you, there is music therapy.There are yoga classes. There's like movement is very much a therapeutic modality.If you join one of those, who was the Peloton?Chelsea Jackson-Roberts.[33:13] Come on, Chelsea. Listen, join one of her classes because I keep hearing over and over again, they're incredibly spiritual.There are many therapeutic modalities that you can try if therapy is not accessible for you.But I highly recommend that you work with someone who will help hold you in that grief and in your pain because there will be many moments that scare you. And I promise you, it is easier to choose not to do this.It is easier to say, nope, I'm not gonna face it. I'm not gonna acknowledge the dark.I'm not gonna open that door. I'm just gonna stay hidden.If you do that though, you will continue to limit the possibilities of who you can be and who you truly are at your core.[33:56] So you want to do the unapologetic journey, baby, I applaud you, go on it, it will be the most daunting, sometimes the scariest, but the most rewarding thing that you could ever do for yourself.[34:08] And the last thing I will add to that is this. We as black women, especially, but anyone who's listening, especially if you are a woman, I feel like we know I'm not even going to qualify that we do we live in a society that will often tell you that your worthiness is is can be explained by what you can produce and what you can do for others.You cannot do for others what you can't do for yourself, period.So you cannot love your kids, your husband, your community, your coworkers to the highest level if you can't do that for yourself.If you can't see your own humanity or acknowledge your own pain and your own trauma and really face it.Even if you say to someone else, oh, I acknowledge your pain and your trauma, you'll never be able to work with them and facing it truly if you can't face it yourself.You'll always run from their pain if you're running from your own.You can't show up fully as yourself for other people unless you show up fully for yourself.And it is hard as hell. I do not want to lie. I don't want you to think that this is glamorous.It is not glamorous work. This is that work you do with no makeup on and your hair ain't combed and you ain't brush your teeth, but you've been crying for two days.[35:27] Yes.[35:29] This is that kind of work. And it will be the most rewarding work that you do for yourself.That's the unapologetic journey.I just feel like he just took us to church. Let the choir say amen. Come on now.Bring my cat over here and let him start me out on a song for us. Yes. Oh, I love it.I just, all of that, so beautiful. So such a testimony to who you are and the love and light that you bring into the world.And something I'm curious about because the world is literally on fire.Like it's a garbage trash can most days.And yet we find, you know, little moments, little pockets of joy.And so I wanna know what is bringing you joy right now?L'Oreal Thompson Payton. Ow! Oh! Oh![36:22] Thank you. And the same. And that is my honest answer. It really is though. It is being connected to people whom I love and who love me back. Like that reciprocal love is what's bringing me joy because you have to go out and seek it in this world. It is very easy to get lost in the pain and in the dark, in the darkness around us. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't care, about those things. You absolutely should. And we are complex beings and we are capable of carrying both immense grief and pain and immense joy and love. And if you don't seek that joy and love, it is very easy to sink into the dark and into the pain only. And that'd be the only thing that you feel. So where you can find that love, where you can find that reciprocal joy and love and peace and relationship, wherever you can find the light, find it. Run. Don't walk. Don't walk to the light, baby. To the light. So as I mentioned earlier, it being National Poetry Month, you being an award-winning, best-selling poet, I had to have you. I can't let you go before you share a little bit with us.So take it away, Pam R. Johnson Davis.[37:47] Okay. So I was spending a lot of time thinking about what poem to share today.I have been experiencing a lot of feelings and so many of my poems reflect my feelings.So I was like, which direction do I go? Do I go angsty? Do I go peaceful?Do I go angry? What do I feel?And what my gut says right now is I would like to share with you the shortest poem I've ever written and quite possibly my favorite poem that I've ever written.This poem is called, Finally, and it's just three short lines.And then one day when someone asked me, who do you want to be?[38:38] Finally, I said, myself.Poetry snaps, poetry snaps. I love that.It is one of my favorite poems that I have ever written. It is one that I come back to most often when I find myself potentially slipping into that dark place where I don't believe that I am worthy and I don't believe that I'm capable and I don't believe those three lines bring me back to myself always.[39:16] So beautiful. Thank you for sharing. And for people who want to keep up with you, what you're doing, where you're singing, when the next book's coming out, tell us more about where we can find you and what you're up to. Yay! You can find me on Instagram at unapologeticallypam.[39:36] I am all over the interwebs. My website is unapologeticallypam.blogspot.com. I have a a newsletter which you can sign up for there on my website and I am trying to get better at sending out newsletters with updates and information as many people have told me in the last week. Girl, you got to tell us when you're about to do stuff because. One of the shows I'm most excited about during National Poetry Month this month is on April 15th I, be performing some music and poetry live at the Wonder Museum in Chicago from 1 to 5. So if you're in the Chicagoland area, come through, pull up. You can, if you buy your ticket for entry between 1 and 5 at the Wonder Museum Chicago, you will get to hear me doing music and poems and just, you know, setting the vibes. It's a really cool gig. I'm excited about my partnership with Wonder And yeah, it's one of the things I'm looking most forward to in April.Love it. Thank you, Pam, so much for being my first guest on the podcast.[40:48] Always a treat. I love you so much. I'm so honored to be the first, and I am so excited to bookmark this podcast to listen to every single episode.And I know we're at the end, but I just feel like we didn't get to talk about stop waiting for perfect very much. We've been in there, you know, people in the show notes will will dive into, yeah, it's a long game. Get ready y'all, pre-order your copy of Stop Waiting for Perfect now because I cannot wait to literally use that book as like my example for things when I need people to, nope, nope, stop waiting for perfect for real, here you go, I'm gonna be showing that book cover to everybody. So pre-order your copy now.Thanks, friend. Thank you so much for listening to the LT in the City podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, I encourage you to share it with a friend and ask them to check it out too. Resources and links from today's episode are available over on the show notes. And as always, you can find me on social media at LTinthecity. Thanks again for tuning in.[41:53] Music.

After three years of procrastinating, I finally decided to take my own advice and stop waiting for perfect. The LT in the City Podcast is the audio companion to my weekly newsletter. Each month, I'll invite a special guest to join me in a conversation about life and love, work and wellness and everything in between.