The Messy Reformation

By Jason RuisReligion & Spirituality

The Messy Reformation episodes

March 23Episode 265: The Church Was the Training Ground — Harry Frielink (Part 1)
Harry Frielink has served the same classis for thirteen years while the denomination around him transformed. He came up through RTS Charlotte and Calvin Seminary, took a call in southwestern Ontario, and eventually settled in Barrie — an hour north of Toronto — where he's now been pastor for over a decade. What he's observed from that vantage point is not a smooth doctrinal progression, but a denomination that came to a cliff edge and, surprisingly, stepped back. This episode is about formation and faithfulness: how a pastor gets made, how a classis gets tested, and what you learn when the train wreck finally happens.
Harry traces his own formation — from the pastoral notes Douglas Kelly wrote in the margins of his syllabi at RTS, to the practical wisdom that said he'd always be an outsider if he didn't go to Calvin, to his conviction that the church, not the seminary, is the real training ground. In Classis Toronto, he watched classical oversight quietly fade — no regular church visits, little deliberative work — until the weight of disaffiliation made it unavoidable. He describes going with another pastor to visit Meadowvale CRC before things came to a head: not to score points, but to ask the actual questions. Where do you stand on scripture? On the historicity of the fall? On the atonement? They were honest. And that honesty named what actually divided them.
Harry has watched Classis Toronto shrink from 8,000 members to 2,000 since 2005. He says that soberly, not triumphantly. What encourages him now is not that the fight is over but that people are finally looking forward — toward evangelism, church revitalization, the slow work of discipleship. He's also learned something true about himself: he is not a spiritual Superman. The council leads. Elders teach. Deacons serve. The pastor equips. That's not a retreat from ministry — it's a Reformed ecclesiology, practiced honestly, finally beginning to bear fruit.
Timestamps:
0:00 — Intro
0:06 — Harry's background: Guelph, Ontario; teaching before ministry; family life
1:50 — RTS Charlotte: Douglas Kelly, Bob Carroll, pastoral formation
4:22 — Decision to go to Calvin; spending time in Grand Rapids
6:51 — Classis Toronto involvement
8:30 — Challenges in Classis Toronto: theological engagement behind the controversies
10:22 — The October 2025 disaffiliation crisis; being yelled at from the chair
12:53 — Handling disaffiliations: heavy, conflicted, not celebratory
15:38 — Visiting Meadowvale CRC: naming what actually divides
19:42 — What Harry has come to know about the CRC: confessions and scripture
20:55 — The denomination's confessional turn — surprised and grateful
21:55 — What Harry has come to know about himself: not a spiritual Superman
25:31 — Pastoral strengths: preaching, catechism, discipleship classes
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
31 min
March 16Episode 264: I've Never Fixed Anyone — Shaun Furniss (Part 2)
If you walk into a pastoral care situation knowing exactly how to fix it, you will make it worse. That's where Part 2 begins—with Jason and Shaun naming the pride that destroys pastoral ministry the same way it destroyed King Saul. From there, the conversation turns to some of the most honest and practical territory the Messy Reformation has covered: what to do with the overwhelm you can't show the congregant, why your elders are co-shepherds and not a board, and what Ole Hallesby's book on prayer has to say to every pastor who has ever felt crushed by the weight of ministry.
The practical advice here is unglamorous and proven. Church doesn't end after the doxology. Get to know your district—not "so-and-so's sister" but her name. Pick two or three people each Sunday and have a real conversation in the narthex. Calvin said it well, and Jason paraphrases it from memory: the care of souls is so overwhelming it can never be done by one man—this is why God gave us a body of elders. The co-pastoring model at Trinity CRC makes this concrete: people want to be fed by the same hand that holds theirs at the bedside, not a specialist they barely recognize.
The episode closes with Hallesby's insight that all prayer flows from helplessness—and that prayerlessness is usually a sign you think you've got things under control. Helplessness, rightly understood, doesn't produce fear. It produces courage. And from there, the final from Shaun: "I've never fixed anyone. I've never healed anyone. I've never saved anyone. But by God's grace, I've had a front row seat to what he has done in many people's lives. And that compels us all the more to worship him."
Timestamps:
0:00 — The Holy Spirit is the true counselor (rewind from Part 1)
0:35 — If you step in knowing how to fix it, you will make it worse
1:03 — King Saul: pride goes before the fall in all of pastoral ministry
1:28 — As fathers and husbands: reliance on God in every moment
1:45 — Parenting is like being a blind man in a dark cave
3:00 — Valley of the shadows (Psalm 23): don't convey overwhelm to your congregant
3:58 — Where to take pastoral overwhelm: the body of elders
5:14 — Elders as the board you report to vs. the shepherds you link arms with
5:43 — Being a non-anxious presence
6:33 — Why pastors struggle to open up to their elders
8:12 — Practical advice: get to know your districts
8:58 — Church doesn't end after the doxology
10:53 — CCEF and resources for pastoral counseling
12:03 — The co-pastoring model at Trinity CRC: why it works
14:28 — People want to be fed by the same hand that holds theirs at the bedside
16:45 — The temptation to specialize: comes from the business world, not the Bible
18:31 — All discipleship flows from some form of relationship
19:17 — Pointing to Christ, not to yourself: the savior complex in pastoral ministry
20:43 — Twice-a-week suicide notes: the season that broke Jason
21:31 — Lord, this is your church. I'm going to bed.
22:57 — Baptismal promises and the gut-wrenching reality: they were His before they were mine
24:14 — Pastoral ministry is one of the most humbling things
25:03 — One of the most beautiful and sanctifying callings
25:34 — Calvin Seminary internship in the Dominican Republic
26:26 — Ole Hallesby's Prayer: all prayer flows from helplessness
28:20 — God won't give you more than He can handle (the correct version)
30:07 — Final word invitation
31:26 — I've never fixed anyone — but I've had a front row seat
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
35 min
March 09Episode 263: The Holy Spirit Is the True Counselor — Shaun Furniss (Part 1)
Shaun Furniss didn't grow up in the church. A Roman Catholic mass enthralled him at age seven, a confirmation class confused him at twelve, and the Heidelberg Catechism converted him in college. Now he's co-pastor at Trinity CRC in Sparta, Michigan—holding a Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy alongside his MDiv—and he's convinced that most churches have quietly abdicated one of their most important responsibilities: the care of souls. This episode is a candid look at what Christian counseling actually is, why the reflex to "refer it out" is often a failure of pastoral nerve, and what it looks like to do it right.
The conversation covers hard ground honestly. Both Jason and Shaun have counseled people through suicide, abuse, and grief—and both have learned the hard way that the biggest mistake pastors make is walking into a crisis ready to solve it. Before any wisdom lands, trust must be built. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. The most powerful diagnostic framework is also the simplest: nearly everyone who comes to a pastor is wrestling with guilt, fear, anger, or loneliness—and the scriptures give us the answers to all four.
The episode closes with one of the most important statements about pastoral ministry you'll hear: when you walk into that counseling room, you are not the true counselor. The Holy Spirit is. He has given us his Word as the means of healing, and the pastor is simply the instrument. "I've never fixed anyone, I've never saved anyone, but by the grace of God, he's allowed me to be a part of what he's doing."
Timestamps:
0:00 — Intro and Shaun's family, Trinity CRC Sparta, co-pastor model
0:43 — How the 50-50 co-pastoring structure works with Pastor CJ DenDulk
2:40 — Shaun's story: did not grow up in the church
3:04 — Dad drops him at a Roman Catholic mass with a quarter
3:37 — Confirmation class, Philippians, and "I'm reading someone else's mail"
4:28 — College and career Bible study leads to conversion
4:51 — Heidelberg Catechism: the Lord drew me to faith
5:38 — Reformed Theological Seminary: Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy
6:23 — Jason's first pastoral care crisis: suicide attempt five months into youth ministry
7:45 — True Christian counseling is discipleship on a one-on-one basis
9:16 — The church's heartbreaking habit: farming out what it should keep in-house
9:54 — When to bring in outside help (abuse, opposite sex)
13:53 — Often what passes for Christian counseling is humanistic counseling with a prayer at the end
16:52 — The seminary culture: one class on pastoral care and one joke — just refer it out
17:31 — Counseling as worldview formation: who shapes how your congregant sees the world?
19:33 — The biggest misconception: thinking you need to instantly give an answer
21:39 — The four root issues: guilt, fear, anger, or loneliness
23:56 — People don't care what you know until they know that you care
26:57 — The ministry of presence: what a hospice chaplain learns
30:07 — The Holy Spirit is the true counselor — you're simply the instrument
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
34 min
March 02 Episode 262: The Communication Problem Every Church Has — Roger Sparks & Harv Roosma (Part 2)
Churches say they want hard conversations. They say they're ready to change. And then the STM arrives. Part 2 of the STM roundtable with Roger Sparks and Harv Roosma moves from the structure of this ministry into the raw material they actually work with: human nature. Forgiven, being sanctified, still human. People talk, Roger says plainly, as long as they sense you're going to agree with them. The real work begins when you don't.
The surface issues vary — declining attendance, unaddressed conflict, gender disagreements, councils stretched thin, vision that's gone fuzzy. But underneath almost all of it is the same thing: a trust deficit. When trust breaks down, everything else follows. And Jason, who has watched more church conflict than most as a stated clerk, names the failure mode he's seen destroy congregations: when councils start deciding what to share and what to control, the congregation already knows. Trust, once lost, is very hard to get back. The antidote isn't a program. It's the thing Roger keeps coming back to — talk to each other instead of about each other. Pray for each other, not just about each other.
Harv talks about the profound satisfaction of preaching on forgiveness, feeling the pushback from people who aren't sure they want to go there, and watching something break open. Roger talks about the honor of being trusted with someone's pain. Both talk about the same miracle: you walk in as strangers and leave as friends. When Dan asks what settled pastors can do to protect their churches, the answers are disarmingly simple — be honest, go talk to people yourself, don't give anyone a stick to hit you with, love your Bible, love your people, practice humility over flash, keep vision sharp, and address things before they fester.
**Timestamps:**
- 0:00 — Intro
- 1:06 — Harv: trust building before the hard questions
- 2:20 — Roger: human nature — people talk as long as they think you'll agree
- 2:51 — The goal: not agreement, but understanding
- 3:27 — When trust is the core problem
- 4:13 — Common issues: communication (Roger)
- 5:57 — Harv: declining attendance, gender conflict, leadership gaps, unaddressed issues, vision ambiguity
- 8:13 — Jason: communication and trust as the underlying root
- 9:11 — How to work through a trust deficit
- 10:34 — "Pray for each other, not just about each other"
- 11:28 — The joys of STM ministry
- 12:40 — Harv: the joy of walking a church through forgiveness
- 13:20 — Roger: the honor of being trusted with someone's pain
- 14:42 — "You come as strangers, and through the miracle of the gospel, you leave as friends"
- 15:36 — What can settled pastors do to protect their churches?
- 16:23 — Roger: be honest, go talk to people, love the Bible and love people, humility over flash
- 18:31 — Harv: clarify vision, gospel focus, train leaders, address issues
- 19:49 — Communication deep dive: council transparency
- 22:39 — Jason: when councils control the narrative, trust evaporates
- 23:40 — Harv: listening groups and solution thinking
- 26:25 — Roger: don't treat STM as a stigma
- 27:09 — Harv: we have so much to celebrate; God is doing great things
- 28:13 — Jason: if God is calling you to STM, reach out to Roger, Harv, or PCR
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
33 min
February 23 Episode 261: The Bittersweet Work of Transitional Ministry — Roger Sparks & Harv Roosma (Part 1)
The CRCNA is navigating a pastoral shortage, smaller candidate pools, and congregations that have been through enough upheaval that calling a new pastor straight away isn't always the right first move. This episode introduces the STM — the Specialized Transitional Minister — through two men who have made it their life's work: Roger Sparks and Harv Roosma. They want you to know something upfront: having an STM doesn't mean your church is a problem church.
Roger came to the work through a painful door. After 34 years in Medicine Hat, Rock Valley, and Laverne, he'd watched churches go through messy separations as a synodical deputy — and gone through one himself. Harv arrived differently: a teacher turned pastor who spent 20 years on Vancouver Island before sensing that the churches he served had deeper needs he wasn't equipped to meet. Pastor-Church Relations pointed him toward STM in 2018. He's been doing it ever since.
The structure is practical — a year-long commitment, first six months learning the church, second six months preparing the way for the next pastor. A priority list of 14-15 items gets narrowed to three or four. The training through the Interim Ministry Network is serious: church DNA, change dynamics, appreciative inquiry, moving a congregation from scarcity thinking to abundance thinking. But the phrase that captures the spirit of the whole thing is Harv's: we go in pre-fired. Your time is limited anyway. There's no fear. The job is to uncover what needs to be uncovered and love people well on the way out.
**Timestamps:**
- 0:00 — Intro
- 1:08 — Roger Sparks: 34 years in Medicine Hat, Rock Valley, and Laverne
- 3:00 — What drew Roger to STM: synodical deputy work and a painful church split
- 5:19 — Harv Roosma: teacher to pastor, Vancouver Island to the Midwest
- 7:41 — What led Harv to STM: sensing needs he didn't have tools to address
- 8:02 — Jason: STMs aren't just for "problem churches"
- 9:10 — The pastoral shortage and STM demand in the CRC
- 12:08 — What a one-year STM commitment looks like
- 13:22 — The 6-month model: learning the church, then preparing for the next pastor
- 15:10 — The priority list: narrowing 14-15 items to 3-4 per church
- 16:54 — When a church closes: walking a congregation through its death
- 17:25 — STM training: the Interim Ministry Network
- 19:09 — Tools: appreciative inquiry, asset mapping, scarcity to abundance thinking
- 19:59 — The skills of the STM: avoiding triangulation, practicing differentiation
- 21:37 — Annual conference and peer Zoom groups
- 23:50 — The license to ask hard questions: what the STM invitation actually means
- 25:44 — "We go in pre-fired"
- 26:42 — Conversations that don't stay at surface level
- 27:05 — The bittersweet: friendships formed and goodbyes
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
32 min
February 09 Episode 260: Is the CRC Cutting the Wrong Things?
This is part two of our team update — and we're getting into some specifics. The big topic: the COD's recommendation for biennial synods, which will come before Synod 2026. Willy serves on the Council of Delegates and voted against the recommendation, and he explains why.
The proposal came from a task force looking to cut costs. Their solution? Hold synod every other year instead of annually. But as Willy lays out, this isn't just a budget issue — it's an ecclesiology issue. Synod has its authority because synod is the church. It's not something we get to skip when money's tight. And here's the kicker: under this plan, COD would meet six times in two years while synod meets only once. That should concern all of us.
Coming out of the battles over human sexuality, departures, and division, this is the wrong time to pull back from gathering. We need more connection, not less. And as Willy points out, it's ironic that the denomination just ran a whole initiative called Gather — and now wants to gather less as a synodical body.
On the encouraging side, Lora Copley has been hired as interim editor of the Banner — and that gives us real hope. Herb Scheur's recent article was exactly the kind of accessible, Reformed content the Banner should be putting out. If you stopped reading the Banner, now's the time to come back. And if God's tapping you on the shoulder to write, submit something.
We close with a call to serve — on COD, committees, boards, wherever God is leading. The priesthood of all believers isn't just a doctrine we confess; it's how renewal actually happens.
Timestamps:
- 0:00 — Intro
- 2:11 — The biennial synod recommendation explained
- 4:33 — "Synod has its authority because synod is the church"
- 5:14 — Why Willy voted against it: COD meets 6 times, Synod just once
- 7:02 — "A recommendation for biennial synods coming out of a war like we've had is foolish"
- 9:30 — Churches feel disconnected from Grand Rapids
- 11:10 — Biennial synods would undo efforts toward unity and vision
- 13:00 — You need a vision before you write a budget
- 16:29 — The denomination needs to cut bureaucracy
- 18:16 — Lora Copley hired as interim Banner editor
- 20:49 — Herb Scheur's article and the call to support the Banner
- 24:47 — Call to serve: COD, committees, boards
- 28:47 — Renewal of ecclesiology and the priesthood of believers
- 33:22 — Final words: pray for the church, act boldly from a place of victory
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
37 min
February 02 Episode 259: Why the CRC Needs Vision More Than Another Fight
It's January, which means it's time for our annual team conversation — just Jason, Willy, and Dan talking about where we are, where the CRC is, and where we think things need to go.
After life updates (Dan's upcoming sabbatical, Willy's new pastor in Pease, Jason's transition into school ministry), we dive into an honest assessment of the denomination's current state. Willy frames it well: the CRC has spent the last few years establishing what we're against, but now we're struggling to articulate what we actually stand for. That's the opposite of how our confessions work — they lead with affirmations, then denials. We've done it backwards.

The result? An unsettling quietness across the denomination. People are asking "now what?" and nobody has a clear answer. We talk about the temptation to start another fight just to rally the troops — and why that's exactly the wrong move. This is the rebuilding phase. And rebuilding starts with identity.
Timestamps:
- 0:00 — Intro
- 2:47 — Dan's update: sabbatical, candidacy gathering, Quorum Deo Conference
- 4:46 — Willy's update: new pastor at Pease, COD work, biennial synods, RCA dialogue committee - 7:13 — Jason's update: school ministry, teaching systematic theology, grieving Greg Zonnefeld
- 10:03 — The state of the CRC post-Synod 2025
- 11:04 — "We've established what we're against — now what do we stand for?"
- 14:09 — The Eugene Peterson story: what happens after you "win"
- 17:35 — Classis renewal and organizational challenges
- 21:01 — The CRC's lack of vision
- 22:07 — Local church leadership vs. looking to denominational HQ
- 24:27 — How classes can share gifts and work together
- 31:24 — "What we're doing isn't working"
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
34 min
January 26 Episode 258: From Reformation to Rebuilding — Cameron Oegema (Part 2)
Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Intro Music by Matt Krotzer
35 min
January 19 Episode 257: From Passive Participant To Active Leadership — Cameron Oegema (Part 1)
Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Intro Music by Matt Krotzer
33 min
December 22, 2025 Episode 256: More Than Sunday Christians — Kurtis Ritsema (Part 2)
Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Intro Music by Matt Krotzer
36 min

About The Messy Reformation

From the publisher's feed

We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the…