If you walk into a pastoral care situation knowing exactly how to fix it, you will make it worse. That's where Part 2 begins—with Jason and Shaun naming the pride that destroys pastoral ministry the same way it destroyed King Saul. From there, the conversation turns to some of the most honest and practical territory the Messy Reformation has covered: what to do with the overwhelm you can't show the congregant, why your elders are co-shepherds and not a board, and what Ole Hallesby's book on prayer has to say to every pastor who has ever felt crushed by the weight of ministry.

The practical advice here is unglamorous and proven. Church doesn't end after the doxology. Get to know your district—not "so-and-so's sister" but her name. Pick two or three people each Sunday and have a real conversation in the narthex. Calvin said it well, and Jason paraphrases it from memory: the care of souls is so overwhelming it can never be done by one man—this is why God gave us a body of elders. The co-pastoring model at Trinity CRC makes this concrete: people want to be fed by the same hand that holds theirs at the bedside, not a specialist they barely recognize.

The episode closes with Hallesby's insight that all prayer flows from helplessness—and that prayerlessness is usually a sign you think you've got things under control. Helplessness, rightly understood, doesn't produce fear. It produces courage. And from there, the final from Shaun: "I've never fixed anyone. I've never healed anyone. I've never saved anyone. But by God's grace, I've had a front row seat to what he has done in many people's lives. And that compels us all the more to worship him."

Timestamps:

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Shaun Furniss didn't grow up in the church. A Roman Catholic mass enthralled him at age seven, a confirmation class confused him at twelve, and the Heidelberg Catechism converted him in college. Now he's co-pastor at Trinity CRC in Sparta, Michigan—holding a Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy alongside his MDiv—and he's convinced that most churches have quietly abdicated one of their most important responsibilities: the care of souls. This episode is a candid look at what Christian counseling actually is, why the reflex to "refer it out" is often a failure of pastoral nerve, and what it looks like to do it right.

The conversation covers hard ground honestly. Both Jason and Shaun have counseled people through suicide, abuse, and grief—and both have learned the hard way that the biggest mistake pastors make is walking into a crisis ready to solve it. Before any wisdom lands, trust must be built. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. The most powerful diagnostic framework is also the simplest: nearly everyone who comes to a pastor is wrestling with guilt, fear, anger, or loneliness—and the scriptures give us the answers to all four.

The episode closes with one of the most important statements about pastoral ministry you'll hear: when you walk into that counseling room, you are not the true counselor. The Holy Spirit is. He has given us his Word as the means of healing, and the pastor is simply the instrument. "I've never fixed anyone, I've never saved anyone, but by the grace of God, he's allowed me to be a part of what he's doing."

Timestamps:

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Churches say they want hard conversations. They say they're ready to change. And then the STM arrives. Part 2 of the STM roundtable with Roger Sparks and Harv Roosma moves from the structure of this ministry into the raw material they actually work with: human nature. Forgiven, being sanctified, still human. People talk, Roger says plainly, as long as they sense you're going to agree with them. The real work begins when you don't.

The surface issues vary — declining attendance, unaddressed conflict, gender disagreements, councils stretched thin, vision that's gone fuzzy. But underneath almost all of it is the same thing: a trust deficit. When trust breaks down, everything else follows. And Jason, who has watched more church conflict than most as a stated clerk, names the failure mode he's seen destroy congregations: when councils start deciding what to share and what to control, the congregation already knows. Trust, once lost, is very hard to get back. The antidote isn't a program. It's the thing Roger keeps coming back to — talk to each other instead of about each other. Pray for each other, not just about each other.

Harv talks about the profound satisfaction of preaching on forgiveness, feeling the pushback from people who aren't sure they want to go there, and watching something break open. Roger talks about the honor of being trusted with someone's pain. Both talk about the same miracle: you walk in as strangers and leave as friends. When Dan asks what settled pastors can do to protect their churches, the answers are disarmingly simple — be honest, go talk to people yourself, don't give anyone a stick to hit you with, love your Bible, love your people, practice humility over flash, keep vision sharp, and address things before they fester.

**Timestamps:**

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The CRCNA is navigating a pastoral shortage, smaller candidate pools, and congregations that have been through enough upheaval that calling a new pastor straight away isn't always the right first move. This episode introduces the STM — the Specialized Transitional Minister — through two men who have made it their life's work: Roger Sparks and Harv Roosma. They want you to know something upfront: having an STM doesn't mean your church is a problem church.

Roger came to the work through a painful door. After 34 years in Medicine Hat, Rock Valley, and Laverne, he'd watched churches go through messy separations as a synodical deputy — and gone through one himself. Harv arrived differently: a teacher turned pastor who spent 20 years on Vancouver Island before sensing that the churches he served had deeper needs he wasn't equipped to meet. Pastor-Church Relations pointed him toward STM in 2018. He's been doing it ever since.

The structure is practical — a year-long commitment, first six months learning the church, second six months preparing the way for the next pastor. A priority list of 14-15 items gets narrowed to three or four. The training through the Interim Ministry Network is serious: church DNA, change dynamics, appreciative inquiry, moving a congregation from scarcity thinking to abundance thinking. But the phrase that captures the spirit of the whole thing is Harv's: we go in pre-fired. Your time is limited anyway. There's no fear. The job is to uncover what needs to be uncovered and love people well on the way out.

**Timestamps:**

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This is part two of our team update — and we're getting into some specifics. The big topic: the COD's recommendation for biennial synods, which will come before Synod 2026. Willy serves on the Council of Delegates and voted against the recommendation, and he explains why.

The proposal came from a task force looking to cut costs. Their solution? Hold synod every other year instead of annually. But as Willy lays out, this isn't just a budget issue — it's an ecclesiology issue. Synod has its authority because synod is the church. It's not something we get to skip when money's tight. And here's the kicker: under this plan, COD would meet six times in two years while synod meets only once. That should concern all of us.

Coming out of the battles over human sexuality, departures, and division, this is the wrong time to pull back from gathering. We need more connection, not less. And as Willy points out, it's ironic that the denomination just ran a whole initiative called Gather — and now wants to gather less as a synodical body.

On the encouraging side, Lora Copley has been hired as interim editor of the Banner — and that gives us real hope. Herb Scheur's recent article was exactly the kind of accessible, Reformed content the Banner should be putting out. If you stopped reading the Banner, now's the time to come back. And if God's tapping you on the shoulder to write, submit something.

We close with a call to serve — on COD, committees, boards, wherever God is leading. The priesthood of all believers isn't just a doctrine we confess; it's how renewal actually happens.

Timestamps:

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Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org

Intro music by Matt Krotzer

It's January, which means it's time for our annual team conversation — just Jason, Willy, and Dan talking about where we are, where the CRC is, and where we think things need to go.                                                                                     

Timestamps:                                                                                                                           

Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/                                                                     

Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ 

Check out the Abide Project:  https://www.abideproject.org

We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.

Intro Music by Matt Krotzer 

Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ 

Check out the Abide Project:  https://www.abideproject.org

We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.

Intro Music by Matt Krotzer 

Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ 

Check out the Abide Project:  https://www.abideproject.org

We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.

Intro Music by Matt Krotzer 

Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ 

Check out the Abide Project:  https://www.abideproject.org

We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.

Intro Music by Matt Krotzer