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Show Notes

This podcast episode is a personal experience and not medical advice.

Keywords

neurodivergent, spectrum, communication, speaking, inclusion

Summary

In this conversation, Dr. Matt and Melanie Suzanne Wilson discuss the significance of curiosity in communication and the importance of understanding the emotional states of others. They explore how being curious rather than judgmental can lead to better interactions and empathy, especially when people are overwhelmed and overworked.

Takeaways

Be curious, not furious. Most people are doing as well as they can. Overwhelm can lead to misunderstandings. Curiosity opens up communication channels. Empathy is crucial in interactions. Understanding others' situations fosters connection. Judgment can close off emotional responses. Traffic and life events can affect behavior. Curiosity leads to better relationships. Emotional intelligence is key in communication.

Titles

Curiosity Over Judgment: A Path to Better Communication Empathy in Overwhelming Times

Sound bites

"be curious, not furious." "you'd be like, Matt's not taking this seriously." "I wonder what's going on."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Accents

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Dr. Matt, welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast. Thank you for being on the show.

Dr. Matt (00:07)

I am thrilled to be here. am. I'd be thrilled to be here even if you didn't have a spectacular accent, but you do. So it's even better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:16)

Awesome. I can tell you that having talked with Americans and also being a speaker, there's quite a D and a T, but the R's, you Americans are getting me to say R a bit more, sort of R.

Dr Matt (00:30)

And one of these days I'll figure out how to say no like you guys do, with like there's an extra like half a vowel in there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:37)

I don't know. Like that?

Dr Matt (00:40)

It's like N-O-O-E-R somehow, no. I lived in Coogee for six months, and I never figured out that part of it, but I'm a bit of an accent sponge, so I can't help myself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:59)

I'll ask about that in a moment, actually, because you work with neurodivergent things, and I'm curious. People say that neurodivergent people have an accent of their own. Do you think so?

Dr Matt (01:16)

It's it's definitely like there's like a particular cadence to how neurodiversion people talk, like we tend to be a little bit more like staccato, like I say this and then this and then this because my brain is uploading the words I'm wanting to say very quickly. Actually, know, know who Barack Obama is a great example of that like Barack Obama because he's like my fellow Americans. It's important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:40)

Really?

Dr Matt (01:46)

That in these difficult times, it's like, there's this sort of like, you can like feel his brain buffering to rather than someone who's like, I know everything I'm going to say and I'm going to say it because we're always sort of building the plane as we fly it. So as one of the reasons, I mean, you know, we're, we're both speakers, right? Like people will ask me, like, how do you know, how'd you know what you're saying? It was like, you think I knew what I was going to say? I'm just so plugged in. I'm like, let's do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:08)

My goodness.

I have found my people. Okay, let's talk about that. I had no idea we were going to talk about speaking, but you talked about the accent, and it all flowed from there because I just say anything, and most people, I'm not judging this. I'm encouraging people to find their courage, but a lot of people will need to plan out what they are going to talk about when they are speaking to any group, and are you saying that there's something a bit neurodivergent about just talking and going for it and saying whatever words flow?

Dr Matt (02:52)

The keyword there is the word flow. Flow is a psychological state that we reach where the challenge level and our skill level meet. Right? So when people feel underwhelmed, their skill levels will be higher than the challenge. And when they feel overwhelmed, their challenge level is much higher than the skill. But if both of those things are aligned, then that's where we get flow state. So you could ask me to go give a talk on like

micro financial organisations and Micronesia, and I would fight my way through it. It wouldn't because that's a high challenge, low scale thing for me. But when I talk about neurodivergence, it's high challenge and high scale because, like, so time goes away and the idea that, like, you can be a good speaker and be neurotypical, because it's about transmitting information, and the information exchange can be done very well by anybody.

But I think to be a good speaker as a performer, that's where we get into letting your different brain fly. Right. And, you know, I've given almost a thousand talks all over the world and I can tell you hand to heart, like, I don't think I've ever given the same exact talk twice, even though I've got probably a dozen talks that people ask me to give over and over and over and over and over because the stories always change in the room always changes and you've got to be able to think on your feet and be in the moment. And that's why when I work with neurodivergent people that build social skills, it's not teaching them exactly what to say because people are inconsistent, right? They're not always gonna respond the way you think they're going to. It's teaching them how to listen, how to respond, how to be nimble. And the best speakers, right, Melanie, they're nimble. They can roll with the punches, they can think on their feet.

And the more we help model that for our clients and families and friends and coworkers, then we're making everybody a more adaptable, flexible group of humans.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:57)

Yes, definitely. The interesting thing about going with the flow when you present is that you are, I think that we are skipping a lot of the internal dialogue and just going for it, which is ironic because often when we are a bit extra quirky, we can be very anxious in the rest of life. But I'm wondering maybe it's

Dr Matt (05:20)

What?

me? No, come on. What?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:25)

Maybe not you! Okay, you're totally fine, never anxious.

Dr. Matt (05:27)

I'm the only

one. Yes, I'm the only one who doesn't get nervous.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:32)

ever in life. Look, this is, then we have the guru in not being nervous or anxious ever. That's good.

Dr Matt (05:40)

My gosh, yes. I mean, I always tell people, like, if I stop being anxious about giving talks, I'm going to stop doing them because anxious means I care. Right. I was anxious not only because I was running late, but I was like, I'm always anxious to be on a podcast because like I value you and what you do, and I want to show up as the best version of me. You know, and there's still that imposter syndrome piece of like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:54)

Really?

Dr Matt (06:03)

It shouldn't be me, there's like so many better people. But here I am and here you are and we're doing a pretty darn good job, I think.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:10)

We are, and that is insight for me because I am amazed by the guests I have been getting. I mean, you are such an expert and the others on this show. And every time I think, Why is this person talking to me? Which is so odd because I grew up surrounded by people who had titles applied to what they did just because they did what they loved. But then I don't.

So I think that the imposter syndrome can happen to all of us. And it's really nice to just, I think maybe what we do, maybe it's a neurodiverse thing, maybe it's just being different, but we simply do things anyway.

Dr Matt (06:59)

You know, and I think it's really, it's like, as much as we'd love to do it, over prepared, overcompensated, over rested, like most of the time you've got to do it under prepared, under compensated, under rested. Like, but the thing is, is like, there is no perfect talk. Like, there's no perfect podcast. Like, there's no perfect therapy session.

Like you just, it's like really, it's like you show up, you do the best you can, you train, learn from the stuff that didn't go well. And then you try and do a little bit better next time. And like, I actually was just talking about this at the conference I'm at right now. I have a, I have a recording of the very first webinar I ever did back in 2017. And I'm telling you, it's awful. It's the equivalent of someone reading like the poetry you wrote in middle school out loud. It's really bad.

But like, cringy and terrible and hard to watch as it is, I can also see in there the glimmers of the speaker I am becoming and have become and will continue to be. Right? Like, there's good stuff in there. But the thing is, it's like you have to start. Like so many gifted kids I work with are neurodivergent kids. They're like, how do I know someone's going to be my friend? I want to know they're going to be my friend before I talk to them, so I don't risk being embarrassed or hurt. I'm like, yeah, man, wouldn't that be great if life worked that way? It doesn't.

You know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:37)

Do find that about being a speaker as well that some people will have whatever opinions about what you are saying or how you are saying it, and you'll change some lives, and some people will be distracted by life, whatever, but you're just doing what you do, and the result is whatever it is meant to be.

Dr Matt (09:00)

You know, and, and I think a big part of that is, is giving yourself permission to grade yourself on a scale. Right. I was on a podcast back in March, back in March. And I just, I, I woke up with a nasty cold. I like, I was trying not to throw up, like, and I'm on this podcast, and she's like, so what do you think of this? was like, yeah, it's really, it's a good question. Like I sound like I'm underwater.

And I like actually email there when the episode posted, was like, listen, I, I think it's great. You post it. I sound terrible. I don't feel sick. I didn't, I couldn't tell. Like I thought, you did a great job. And it's like, I did a damn good job for functioning at about 25 % of my normal capacity. But I think when you're neurodivergent, part of that is understanding, like for all the parts that it feels like we'll never reach a hundred per cent of our capacity.

There are parts of our lives that, like 25 % of our best, is a lot of hundred people's, a hundred per cent of their best, right? Like I work with a kiddo, he's an incredibly gifted musician. And he's the kind of kid who can pick up an instrument and figure it out and play it. And he's like, Oh, my violin playing sucks. I was like, you picked up the violin yesterday.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:07)

What do you mean?

Dr Matt (10:26)

And you're violent playing that giant air quotes sucks is better than 90 % of the population. And you've been playing it for less than 24 hours.

So it's.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:39)

That happens.

Dr Matt (10:40)

It's like, on the days you only have 40 % capacity to give, giving all the 40 % capacity is giving 100%. You can only give what you have.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:54)

I think that is empowering to everybody, and what we are doing is busting the perfectionism.

Dr Matt (11:01)

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's like I call my talk on perfectionism, how to stop moving the goalposts. Because, you know, if you're playing, if you're on the rugby pitch and like you're trying to get that try and someone keeps moving the, you know, the end zone further and further, further, you'll never score. And you're just gonna get exhausted and miserable and unhappy and be like, Why am I failing? Is it that you're failing, or is it that people are changing the rules?

And like we can't necessarily change if your partner, your boss, your best friend, or Sydney International Airport changes the rules on you. There's always so much you can do about that. But when it comes to setting our own rules, we've got to give ourselves a lot more grace and patience.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:51)

We do. We need to have compassion for ourselves.

And also, we need to forgive ourselves for rushing through a busy day. I'll ask about that because sometimes it's great to just talk about the realities we are in, and you are at a conference, you do a lot of talking, you also, what work do you do the rest of the time when you're not presenting to audiences?

Dr Matt (12:20)

So I'm a full-time clinical psychologist. And speaking was like a thing I did a little bit, and then it became my other full-time job. So, because my practice is totally virtual, I can be somewhere and see clients. And my clients are pretty used to be like, where are you now? Like, I'm in Mississippi, or I'm in Canada, or I'm in, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:42)

Okay.

Dr Matt (12:46)

Northern California, or I'm in my basement, which is where my office is back in New Jersey. You know, and it's, it's funny because he, it's a constant juggling, and my brain that needs to feel really engaged likes that part. It likes the constant moving the parts and the chess pieces around the board. But I'll be the first to tell you it's exhausting. It would be really easy to do one or the other of these two things. But my brain likes to do a lot of different things, and it scratches two very different edges for me. like, you know, I just I try and make sure I'm living in a in a space that honours both of those and I show up as the best I can in both of those places.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:33)

Definitely. Did you find that with the personality that you have, do you find yourself not necessarily over-committing, but just wanting to do a lot and needing to find the limit in that?

Dr Matt (13:49)

Oh, it's definitely over-committing. I think let's call it what it is. Right. Cause like that perfectionism and that imposter syndrome go hand in hand. Right. If I am the perfect speaker and therapist and author and husband and father and friend and, and, and then everyone will love you. Right. That's, that's really the, that's the psychology behind it. So like, I, you know, I've had to work a lot professionally at saying no.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:52)

I can't.

Dr Matt (14:15)

You know, and like I hired other people for my practice. So I don't take on every client and work 70-hour weeks. That's not sustainable. I don't show up as the best version of me for my clients. If I'm. Dragged down into the dirt, right? So I'm like, listen, I have good people on my team to take some people from me to take new clients. And then as my speaking career has progressed, I've stopped saying yes to every speaking thing that comes my way. It's like the old line, like if you've got too much work to do.

If you're too busy at work, you're not charging enough. And it's like, huh, okay. Right. Because that's the, if that's what it costs to buy that peace of mind, then like we all have to practice that. Like, listen, I'll be the first to tell you it's easier said than done. I struggle with it all the time, but the way we push back on that perfectionism is by doing what I call bottom-up thinking rather than top-down thinking. Top-down thinking is I've got to be perfect or else I have to get 100 % on this test. Bottom-up thinking is the default of me doing anything is zero. I don't get out of bed today. I don't go for any run today. I don't record any podcast today. I don't see any therapy clients today. I write no words on my book today. If you one word, it's a lot more than zero. Right?

And then the idea is like, becomes cumulative and aspirational rather than like the first thing you see is the mistake. Right. And that's, that is like many therapists. I have to practice what I preach, but it's been helpful to me and like reorganising how I feel about my own stuff. Cause then yeah, I show up as just as a much better version of me when I do that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:07)

Yes. Do you think that, along with being different and holding ourselves to our standard instead of you, are doing more than what the average person will do, on top of that, do you find that in this day and age of personal branding, there's an extra layer of expectation?

Dr Matt (16:28)

Yeah, definitely. And it's a huge source of frustration for me because, you know, I don't want to make tech talks. Like, I don't want to put out like branded Dr Matt content. Like, you know, and the people like, you've got to have classes, you've got to lead retreats. And I'm like, I want to be an above-average therapist, and I want to be an above-average speaker. And like, if I don't have like merch, I can, my head will sleep just fine when it's the pillow tonight. But because honestly, I think it's dangerous when any client-facing work becomes about a cult of personality, right? Like, I'm an above-average psychotherapist. I'm good at my job, but I'm not; I don't do anything. I don't have any magical therapy that nobody else doesn't have. If I have a superpower, it's how to connect with people. It's connecting with neurodivergent clients because I am neurodivergent and I'm good at connecting with them, right? But parents will call me like, You're the only person who can help my kid. I'm like, that's not true.

In fact, it shouldn't be true, right? But there are a lot of people out there, you know, who are, who are leaning the other direction. Like, yes, I, I alone will fix your depression. I alone will fix your autism. And it's just like, come on, y'all. Like that's not, that's not actually working for anybody. But by the time you notice that you've given that person $2,000 and you haven't gotten any better, you know, I mean,

I think the thing that parenting, teaching, and therapy all have in common is that it's work that's fundamentally driven by humility.

You've got to be humble if you're going to do this work. And that just doesn't like a lot of people forget the order of operations there. And it's like, my clients are so lucky to have me as a therapist. No, I'm lucky to have them as clients. I am so flattered and honoured. Anytime someone's like, Yes, come talk to me. I'm like, you want to pay me to say words. I have many high school teachers who would have, who would have paid me to shut up at some point like this. Are you sure?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:49)

Yeah, I can relate to that. Well, maybe not school, but outside of

Dr Matt (18:50)

I'm, I somehow I can tell you, my gosh.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:57)

Is there actually something about us, different people, where we sort of become that annoyingly overly talkative one?

Dr Matt (19:08)

You know, and it's.

Talking can serve many needs, right? And it can be a way of managing anxiety. It can be a way of connecting. It can be a way of processing. know, a lot of people I work with are like their external processors. So they're just like, okay, hold on. Here's what I think about this. I'm getting my words together. And if you rush that person, they'll never say anything. But if you know they're thinking as they talk, then a great thing is like the next around the next bend, but you've got to be patient enough to get there because you know, once again, it's that nimbleness, right? Like you may not know what you're going to say before you say it, but there's a good, there's good content in there and you hopefully have developed the skills to access that content effectively, you know? And I think that's why so many neurodivergent people struggle in like emotional arguments, like with their partners, because it's like, hold on, I'm trying to find my words and put them together. And it always feels like they, well, like how come you have exhibits and PowerPoints? like, why do you have like, why do you have experts on call? And like, I didn't know we were having this argument until 30 seconds ago. Slow down, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:25)

Right, right. People have experts on call. Yes, they do. Yes, I think that it can go in either direction. Let me know if this is spot on. Some people will either freeze up and they are trying to pick the ideal words, or then there are those of us who will just talk and talk and talk, trying to piece a puzzle together. Does that happen in other people?

Dr Matt (20:54)

I mean, it at least happens to me. There's at least two of us, but I know there's a lot more. And, the problem is that schools and businesses and a lot of public spaces aren't built to deal with that kind of thinking, processing, feeling. So what ends up happening is you end up yelling or blaming at the person. Right? So, like you'll say to that person, like, stop talking. And the person realises.

It gets the message, whether it's intentionally or unintentionally, that there's something wrong with them, that they're broken somehow. And then you internalise that and you take it to the bank, right? It's like, I guess I suck. And, you know, and then that person shuts up or become, or their flame dims a little bit. And like, not everybody should be able to talk all the time. Like, that's not what I'm saying, but we have to honour different styles of communication. And the problem is, is the world is built for and by neurotypical people. 80 % of the world is neurotypical, right? So it makes sense that the communication structures and systems and patterns ape a neurotypical mindset. That absolutely makes sense to me.

But the metaphor I usually use for this is like, Melanie, if we were coming to your house for a dinner party, what would you cook?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:29)

Am I saying now what I would cook?

Dr Matt (22:31)

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, tell me what you'd got.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:35)

Okay, if it was a lot of people, would, because I prefer plants and veg, generally I would go with big burrito bowls, put it together yourself. So, a bean thing and a whole lot of salad and some guacamole, things like that, and people can assemble their own thing.

Dr Matt (22:58)

Love it, right? And that sounds great as a dinner party. I love that. You're helping our veggie friends and our vegan friends. But let's say I bring my wife and my wife brings her sister and her, my sister is gluten, my sister-in-law is gluten-free. You gotta throw all those burrito bowls away because my sister-in-law is gluten-free.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:24)

I think the burrito bowls would be gluten-free anyway, but I see your point.

Dr Matt (23:32)

Right? And that's the thing. mean, you know, it's funny because usually people say like, I cook some sort of meat like chicken or fish or beef or something. And then it's like, well, what about my friends? We're vegetarian. Like you made it harder for me, but I think we still got the point across. It's like, we're not saying everybody in the world has to adapt to us, but we are saying, please leave some room on the table for the things that we need to do. They're where you shove the best version of us. Because that to me is, I mean, that's, that's how we enrich the entire human experience, is that more people have more seats at the table and more turns to talk.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:10)

Well, that's why I picked those foods, actually, because I'm actually now seeing a parallel between being meat-free and gluten-free and not free. A parallel between that and being neurodiverse, because you're saying just build the world in a way that fits both. Because I've been to some community things recently where the simple solution, someone brought a tub of hummus.

Or there would be guac one week or whatever it might be, or some chia puddings. And it was just whatever food. I mean, often there are those plates of the vegetable sticks, and veggies are, you know, everybody wants the carrot sticks to pretend they're being healthy for a few minutes. So that's just anyone. But why, I'm sorry, I think we'll need to talk about it for a while later, how the schools and the workplaces need to be built in a way that can truly include people who are different because right now, at least over here, I'm seeing that separate schools are needed simply for people who are different enough to even have somewhere they can function and learn and grow. It's very separate.

Dr Matt (25:29)

Yeah. And you know, there's always going to be a tension between specific environments and inclusion, right? I mean, I want people to have places where they can retreat and be the best version of themselves, but we also can't silo off parts of society, right? It's a dangerous balance. Well, it's a dangerous thing to consider, and it's a tricky balance. You know, I mean, as a kid, I grew up going to, you know, a summer camp for gifted kids. And that was three weeks of summer where I could be the most authentic version of myself, was no masking involved in that. And then I went home, and I had to be closer to what society needed me to be. And I'm not saying one is good and one is bad, right? Cause you know, we ultimately we all need to figure out how to get along with each other. Like there's 8.3 billion of us on this planet, but we don't have neurodivergent countries and neurotypical countries. We have, you know, like, that's why I always say like, you know, if 80 % of the world is neurotypical and 20 % of the world is neurodivergent, we are all going to keep running into each other, right? Like we don't get to cordon ourselves off. So like, if you have a colleague who's autistic, you're going to have to find a way to manage a relationship with that person. Just like, when I talk to parents in the pickup line at school who aren't neurodivergent, it is on me to do what I can to meet them in the middle and talk about the things that they want to talk about, if for no other reason to go along to get along. But hopefully I can find relationships and comrades and confidants in those things rather than just saying, well, you're not like me, so I don't talk to you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:18)

seeing another parallel of how we identify. Just like I don't always want to come out as being a particular dietary type. I also don't always want to come out as being neuro anything, because I always worried about being boxed in and people saying you are like this because you have this label. What do you think about people either outwardly identifying as some of these things or just trying to say I'm different, I don't want to label, but let's see what we can do.

Dr Matt (27:55)

You know, parents ask me that all the time. They'll say like, well, I don't want my kid to be labelled. And so we have this expression.

I don't know if you guys have it. So like, if you hear hooves, hoofbeats in the distance, it makes sense to think it's a horse, not a zebra. Right? Because horses and zebras look very similar, right? And they sound very similar, but horses and zebras need different things to survive. The problem is that a lot of kids are walking around that are actually zebras, but who've been forced to sit in a horse trough.

Like they're doing what horses do, right? So you can't name, you can't name you. If you don't name yourself as a zebra, you're going to, you're not going to have all your needs met. You're going to wonder why you're struggling, right? But because horses need different things and zebras need different things. So it really, to me, like,

I think that if you don't own your own labels, if you don't put a hand on that steering wheel and get proactive about it, society will label you anyway, whether you want to or not. Right? Because I was identified gifted in grade two and I was diagnosed with ADHD in high school.

And those labels have been good and bad, right? There's pros and cons to them. But before I got the label of ADHD as well, society gave me labels like scatterbrained and doesn't work to his potential and space cadet. So like, that's the thing. If you don't...

You don't have to embrace every label given to you, but having those labels allows you to create an internal counter-narrative over what other people will tell you. Like the concept in the autistic community of the 'dumbbell' empathy problem. For a long time, autistic people had a lot of people saying to them, You're autistic, you don't have empathy.

And it's like, no, that's a sociopath, right? Sociopaths are a different thing. Autistic people have a different kind of empathy. They experience empathy in a different way. And the idea of the double empathy problem is that you might be expressing empathy to me one way and I'm expressing empathy back to you in a different way, but because they're different, they're like ships passing in the night. You know, I show up with, I'm here to sit with you and listen. That's how I'm showing empathy. And you're like, how come you're not doing anything about it, Dr Matt?

But I'm like, but I did, I showed up, listened, did, words, ears, I was here. But if you're expecting support looks like flowers, chocolates, and an all-expense-paid trip to Fiji, well, you're going to be disappointed. And I'm going to feel frustrated because I thought I helped. Right. So that's, mean, those communicative patterns have to come from a place of understanding.

And if we don't understand ourselves, it's going to be real hard to help other people understand us.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:17)

We need to understand ourselves and explain to the world how we function and figure out a way to connect with other people. There's a lot to unpack with that. I'm hoping we can do a part two of this talk soon.

Dr. Matt (31:35)

Absolutely,

I would love to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:40)

Great, great. So, before part two, is there one particular lesson everybody should keep in mind for their upcoming week to help to understand themselves and everybody else?

Dr Matt (31:57)

So when I still everything I do into one sentence, that sentence is be curious, not furious.

Right. Because most of the time, people are doing as well as they can in as many things as they can. They're overwhelmed. They're overworked. So if I'm like, gosh, like when I was running late before, right? Like you'd be like, Matt's not taking this seriously. Dr Matt is a jerk. That's getting furious. And when you first you close off mentally and emotionally, right? That's all I'm going to think about that. He sucks the end. If you're, I wonder what's going on. I appreciate that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:32)

Never thought that, by the way.

Dr Matt (32:36)

I wouldn't have blamed you if you did, though. But if you're curious, you're like, okay, I wonder what's going on. And maybe the answer is that I didn't take it seriously, and I was blowing you off. But there are much more likely explanations, things like I was stuck in traffic and my day ran long and, and, and, and, and, right? So I just think that, like, it is so easy to get angry, and I get it. As a human being, I understand that emotion, but before we get furious, let's try to be curious because 99 % of the time, that's a much better, kinder answer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:11)

That's a slogan that I wish I had learned decades ago.

Dr Matt (33:17)

Yeah, I speak in bumper stickers, unfortunately, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:21)

Yes, but we need more bumper stickers. Look, thank you so much for this much wisdom, and I've honestly learned from every sentence. So thank you, and I look forward to talking again soon.

Dr Matt (33:35)

I can't wait. Yes, and thank you for having me. And seriously, you are an incredible host. Was, I mean, this talk about flow state, I looked at it, was like, how have we been talking this long? It feels like we've been talking for two minutes. Hopefully, the listeners enjoy us as much as we enjoy ourselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:51)

They will and will set aside an hour and a half for later sometime. Whenever you're ready. See you later. Bye.

Dr Matt (33:56)

Love it. Let's do it. Yes. Cheers.

Keywords

workplace environment, communication, mental health, psychological safety, feedback, leadership, job satisfaction, employee voice, work culture, evaluation

Summary

In this powerful episode, Dr Jeff Radford reveals why forgiveness, compassion, and valuing people are the most underestimated leadership tools of our time. He and Melanie Suzanne Wilson dive into culture change, psychological safety, and the spiritual purpose behind great leadership. A must-listen for anyone ready to lead with heart, humility, and hope.

Takeaways

The worst thing is to be passionate but unsatisfied at work. Feedback and communication are essential in the workplace. Evaluate if your work environment supports your voice. A toxic environment can harm mental health. Psychological safety is crucial for achieving results. Leadership plays a key role in workplace satisfaction. Employees should feel empowered to speak up. Job satisfaction is linked to the work culture. Assessing your environment is vital for personal growth. Your ability to perform is affected by your surroundings.

Titles

Navigating Workplace Dynamics The Role of Communication in Job Satisfaction

Sound bites

"I want feedback. I want to know what's going on." "Is that the right area to be in?" "It will lead to your own demise in regard to your mental health."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Merciful Leadership 00:44 The Role of Purpose and Spirituality in Leadership

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Dr Jeff Radford, welcome to the podcast.

Dr Jeff Radford (00:05)

Thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:08)

Any time. You were telling me a moment ago about merciful leadership. Would you like to tell everybody about that and what exactly you do?

Dr Jeff Radford (00:18)

I would love to tell everybody about Merciful Leadership. So back in 2007, I was trying to figure out how that I would finish my doctoral project and in the doctor's degree. And the thought came to me about as I worked through that program and studied about different theories of leadership, but also evaluated leaders that I have worked for. In addition, the type of leader that I was, and this term Merciful Leadership came into my mind.

And really, I'll tell you, the secret sauce to anything is about forgiveness in the workplace. And when you read about other leadership theories, you don't hear a lot about forgiveness when you're interacting with other team members or employees or those that you serve. But the whole component of forgiveness is really valuing the team members that we serve. And so I appreciate the opportunity to talk a little bit about Merciful Leadership, how it was developed.

But really, what I have often said is that we're not just in the 'business' business, we're in the people business. And without people and without serving people and without people working with us, leaders would not be successful. So we have to value people within the workplace.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:34)

How do you balance forgiving people and achieving results?

Dr Jeff Radford (01:41)

Sure. Well, by valuing people, which is forgiveness, and if you go to my book, Mercy Leader, we talk about that a lot because there's different components of merciful leadership. When I talk about forgiveness, forgiveness doesn't take away accountability or expressing the results, but most people like structure. They long for some type of structure. So that's the results piece of it. I give my expectations. I set where those expectations are.

But if I don't value people and bring them along with me to help meet those expectations, or maybe I disregard them as a person and what they need, the resources they need, they'll never fulfil those. And so to achieve results, you have to value people. You have to put yourself in their shoes. What do they need? If they're failing, is it because of something as a leader I'm not providing or the organisation is not providing? And when we're actually collaborating together and allowing a workplace to actually flourish because I've got creators on the other end here giving me ideas who are expressing how maybe even my own decisions are impacting the workplace through a positive light or even through a negative light. I welcome that feedback because we're collaborating together. They're the ones most of the time doing the hard work. And so I need to listen to that and show them that they are important in that process. Whether as you're used to, we had the old factory style of leadership, to where in my book I talk about the gentleman would look down through the window and look at all the people working below and have a thumb-down approach. Well, that's not what we work in these days. We work in environments where people want to be part of the process. They want to feel part of the movement. They want to achieve the results, but we just have to give them all the tools and the feedback to help them with that. Whether it's positive or even constructive criticism, it's our job as leaders to give them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:31)

Definitely. When you talk about people having what they need, does that go beyond information and perhaps resources in the organisation to find some sort of flexibility in a way that still reaches goals?

Dr Jeff Radford (03:47)

Yeah, that's a phenomenal question, by the way. It reminds me of my studies several years ago, where a gentleman by the name of George Barna came to speak to us at the university. And he talked about the generational differences that we have. I think in the older generations, probably that factory-style approach, you could get by with it in some aspects. But we don't just serve that older generation anymore. We have a multi-generational workforce.

And when we think about that, we have to individualise our leadership to each level. And what George Barna talked about, he said, the younger generations are more like a mosaic painting. And I'll be honest with you, if I go to an art exhibit and I see colours splashed on a canvas, I can't really interpret that. I just see colours splashed on a canvas. But what he talked about is if you look at the art, there's always different interpretations about that art. And reading that, when we had this multi-generational workforce, this mosaic generational workforce, we really have to look at how we can serve each individual level. And so, bringing that back into the leadership context, we really have to go through that process and actually figure out how we can individually connect with each level of generations that we are working with. And from that, we've got to figure out what's important to them as well.

It's not just about what they're going to do for the organisation anymore. It's really about they're coming in to see what the organisation is going to do for them. So it takes a little extra effort, a little extra time, but the results and the value that it brings in the workforce really will take results to a whole other level.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:28)

What I was going to ask about results because I can relate to how people need, people need different things based on their diversity. I can relate to that so much, but there will be business leaders or even any organisational leaders asking, Yes, but what is the ROI on doing this?

Dr Jeff Radford (05:50)

Well, there's a lot of ROI. I mean, I think, you know, if you focus on the culture, people will want to stay in the organisation. So think about what we pay for when we hire a brand new team member employee to our organisation. We go through all the pre-employment things that cost the organisation money. We go through all the onboarding. It could take 90 days. It could take even longer than that, depending upon the type of role in the organisation. And then when we fail during that experience and that position turns over, we acquire that expense again and go back through the same old routine of trying to hire somebody else. We've got to learn that we, again, are in the people business. And it's really important that we create the best experiences for our team members through feedback, but also through their experience. And so what does that mean? Sometimes it's the small things. In one of the organisations I used to be CEO for, it was having their name on a name plaque when they came in for their first day of orientation.

It was asking the questions prior to orientation. What's your favourite candy? And people like, well, that's just too fluffy. It's actually personalised. And when they came into the orientation, they would have their favourite candy laying with their name plaque where they're supposed to be. And it was a wow factor when they first came in. It was having an employee advocacy program to where leadership members followed them, maybe not even their own supervisor, but somebody from the team would follow them in at least that first 90 days.

Make sure at a weekly check-in that they were following up to see how their experience was not just throwing them out to the wolves and Expecting them to learn because that's not valuing their experience That's just throwing them out there and then ultimately they will choose to leave or fail So when I think about the return on investment that first category of employee retention is Huge for any organization and it's important to any organization as well because when I spend time with hospitals or whoever I may serve we are always looking at the retention strategies for team members. And so we know that there is a huge cost associated with that. And there's less cost when you retain those employees. So that makes sense. We want to make sure that they're staying with us, but it's all going to be about the culture that we have, the positive culture that they are hopefully thriving in for our hospitals. So that's an ROI. The other thing that I would add to the ROI as well is that when team members are allowed to be in what I would call a psychologically safe environment, to where they can express their ideas, to where they can raise their hand when they see something wrong, then that also creates a component that saves cost. Because I would much rather somebody say, This is wrong and we can fix it, than to have a culture that's a top-down approach where nobody's creative, giving better ways to do it, making more efficient ways to do it to save cost, but also the creativity that they bring can actually enhance the results by the products that we produce or the patient care that we provide, the quality of care that we provide in healthcare. So that would be another ROI because I think there are better results when we allow a psychologically safe environment, which is all conducive to what I do as a leader and actually the culture they work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:07)

You answered one of the questions I was going to ask, which is how taking this approach can prevent things like burnout and mistakes in people's work as well. Do you think so?

Dr Jeff Radford (09:17)

Yeah, no, that's yeah. And I'll tell you, I work in health care. I've been in health care for over 30 years since the age of 17. I was riding a bicycle to the local rescue squad building as an emergency medical technician. That's how I got started in the health care. And from that, I've seen many things, but the most impactful thing that hit the health care world, it hit every industry, but I can speak specifically to health care, was COVID.

And in the COVID, I saw a lot of things that were related to fear, lack of supplies, answers that people were hungry for because they were scared in that type of environment. And from that, I saw burnout because we had an influx of patients that came into the system and we were not ready for it from an entire demand on the healthcare system. From that, I did see burnout. I saw people who decided maybe to leave for a period of time, leave healthcare, because it was just too much from what they had to experience during that time. Or other leaders, leaders have retired or gotten out of it because of the stress that it created. So when we work in an environment where people feel valued, there will be less burnout. It'll be more collaborative as a team versus a solo effect that often occurs in organisations where nobody's allowed to talk to each other, or an organisation that promotes blame to different departments without taking accountability. It takes open communication, nurturing and showing people that they're valued, that actually lessens the opportunity for burnout versus people who feel like they're in a silo, working by themselves, don't have a voice, and then they just decide to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:04)

That is spot on. I have seen that happening in similar sectors like education and disability over here. So we can see those trends that you have identified and the trends that you have led to solve. We're seeing that in multiple countries. This is not just in the U.S., it's not only in Australia, but I'm really keen to ask this controversial question. How can we figure out the burnout of leaders.

Dr Jeff Radford (11:37)

Well, I think we could actually gauge it just by, well, it could be interaction, number one, verbal cues, comments that are made, actions, gestures that come from the leader. You can often pick up when you observe verbal cues from someone. think sometimes results are indicative to burnout. So somebody becomes less engaged as a leader. They're not involved with their team. Their turnover spikes up. Quality starts to go down, and you often ask, Where's the leader in all this? And the leader could be checked out in the office and done, and not really wanting to express it, but that could be indicative of the results are not where they need to be. And it could be obviously an example of the leader in burnout. It could be direct follow-up with the leader. So in the people that I serve, leadership teams that we serve, we stay connected pretty frequently. And I look for cues that I may see whether it's enhanced complaints, complaints or more, or somebody's dissatisfied all the time. So there's negative things that I would see and pick up on so I could address them and say, hey, what's going on with you? I see something a little bit different in you. I actually have a, if you're okay, have an example of that in my own career. Would it be okay to share with the group?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:51)

Of course, examples are great, he can share anything.

Dr Jeff Radford (12:54)

Sure, so when I was first joined my current organisation, I was about a year into a chief nursing officer role, and I was working hard. We had a lot of call-ins from staff, and so I became the nurse on the floor. I was the leader, but I was working side by side with my staff. I was taking care of patients and not just administrative role, but I was also doing nursing duties. And I was doing that for several days in a row. And I didn't realise there was anything different about other than that I was committed, I was working hard, I was ensuring that our patients were safe. But my supervisor recognised that there was a change in how I interacted with her. And it was interesting because I didn't see it in myself, but she picked up on it because we were close, we talked frequently, we communicated frequently, and she saw some difference in how I was responding to her. So one day she called me into her office.

And you know, I'm busy. I'm taking care of patients. I'm like, what does she want? And so I go into her office as we sit down, and she said, What's going on with you? I see something different in you. I see that you're interacting differently with the other members of the leadership team. You're interacting differently with me. When I talk about things you're passionate about, I see a light come in your eyes or basically in your,

Your verbal cues. And then she said, But when I talk about things related to the hospital, I see a change in your demeanour. What's going on with you? And I still could not take ownership of that because I didn't see it within myself, although she did. And so she told me to go home and think about it and decide if I truly wanted to be the chief nursing officer. It kind of hurt my feelings to be honest with you, because I was like, I know I'm working very hard. I'm taking care of patients. I'm ensuring they're safe.

I thought about it through the weekend, and I came back on Monday with a renewed energy, and I told her I'm committed to be your chief nursing officer, and we worked very successfully together, and we created a great hospital environment during that time that we worked together. So even though I didn't see it myself, I had a great mentor, people who were surrounded around me that cared enough about me to say I see something different.

And I think that's the level of engagement we as leaders have to have. And whether if you're in a 5,000 employee organisation, I know that the CEO or whoever the senior leader is doesn't know all 5,000 employees, but it spreads out because we're the example. And so if I'm taking care of my core team and I'm engaged with them and I'm watching them and I'm communicating with them, it trickles as they are leaders of a core team. Then, and it goes on down to the frontline employee. So that would be an example of some things that I experienced in my career to where I had great people around me that recognised that I was going through possibly a burnout phase.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:54)

You had someone within the management of your organisation who could identify how you were really coping. And then you were able to find that motivation and spark again. I'm curious about, okay, I'll focus on this next question.

Dr Jeff Radford (16:03)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:16)

What would you say to people who still love their role, but they know that something needs to change in how the work is done? How perhaps there's a limit in resources to the point where people are stretched too far, like what you were describing, or perhaps there's a cultural issue. It could be gossip or anything. What do you say to people who love the work, but they know that something needs to change?

Dr Jeff Radford (16:44)

I would encourage you to find your voice. I think the worst thing that we can do is work in an environment where we're passionate about our work, but we're not satisfied with the actual environment we're working in, and we're not using our voice to speak that. We're all given a voice, and I feel comfortable in the organization I work in, and I try to encourage that with people on my team, is that I want feedback. I want to know what's going on. I want communication.

But I will also voice the same thing to the person that I report to as well. If there's something I don't agree with or I have concerns, I'm going to report that because that's the environment that we should work in. If there's concerns about that environment and you feel like you know that you have a voice, but the environment or the supervisor or the leadership team is not conducive to allow that, I think you have to evaluate, is that the right area to be in?

Because ultimately it will lead to your own demise in regards to your mental health, your psychological safety, your ability to achieve results, your ability to work ⁓ at the level that you want to. So you have to evaluate that. But I would also encourage to make sure that you try to find the avenues to express. So if your current supervisor is not one that allows that environment, what's the next level that you can go to help create change in the organisation if it's truly where you want to be. But important to also recognize that as leaders we have to encourage that as well. So I don't want to be that person to where somebody who I serve will not speak up because they don't feel like they can come to me. So I think we have to evaluate it on both sides. But I would encourage that you find your voice and use it as long as it's for the right perspective and it's constructive to help make the organisation better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:38)

Absolutely. Find your voice. That's very encouraging because people need to find the courage to repeat that word a bit because we talk about confidence, but there's projecting confidence, talking how we are right now. And then there's actually feeling brave. There's the approach of actually finding that courage within to say, okay, my perspective on this matters.

And I think that everybody needs to feel empowered. You are doing something very impactful here because especially whether someone is at the top or not, we're all scared of what people will think of us when we say what we need.

Dr Jeff Radford (19:24)

And I have felt the same way. So I think by putting myself or remembering some of those thoughts that I have, but I would call that so interesting enough, there's a book out there called Outwitting the Devil, and it's written by Napoleon Hill. Years ago, Napoleon Hill in the early 1900s or mid-1900s, he had written this manuscript and was afraid to actually publish it. And it was actually published after his death.

But what he talks about is he talks about the imposter syndrome that many of us go through. And when I talk about that for myself, I call it the other Jeff. And the other Jeff sometimes can be concerned about expressing his voice, about letting things of concern be known, because I think about, what will others think? Or how will they impact my job? How will it impact my productivity or what people think about me? But

Again, I would ask that we reevaluate the intention of it because we can respond in an emotional response as a trigger point, to where it's not constructive at all. But I'm learning as I get older and get wiser and longer in my leadership career that if I just take a step back and I pause and I look at the situation and I evaluate it and I say, how can my voice make a difference in this area versus automatically reacting or coming from a place of fear to where I shut down because I'm afraid, or maybe I'm not deserving to be able to say anything. That other Jeff, I got to deal with him all the time. And I've just got to push him out of the way because I have been put on this earth, and everybody has, with a purpose. And it's a purpose to make a difference. Whatever your passion is and whatever your dream and your why, you are created for a purpose. And once I tapped into that, I've found it a little bit easier to get that other Jeff off to the side and know that I'm gonna wake up every day and I'm gonna have a voice and I'm gonna make it be heard and hopefully help impact other people in a positive.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:33)

If you don't mind me sharing, I think you have identified something that I was dealing with very recently. I love talking, and I had to overcome the various lines that I'd heard from people over the years. It's not always just the voice in our head. People will say you had things handed to you when it's not true. People will say you're becoming too much like someone else or

Dr Jeff Radford (21:40)

Sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:02)

You can't fit this mould, or people call someone lazy when they are not. And people are going to have their opinions. But what you're saying is that we have our purpose anyway. And whether it's an opinion from within or from other people, we know our purpose and our voice. You've really hinted at spirituality, religion, or philosophy a few times here. And I am not afraid to look at that because

I think traditionally in business, in work, we were told to keep that separate, but I think that great leaders like you have been fuelled by the philosophical purpose. So I'm curious, how has your, how were your beliefs changing what you do?

Dr Jeff Radford (22:53)

Yeah, that's great. So I was raised in a pastor's home. My dad was a pastor of a church. I'm currently, and I won't call it my side job; it's a calling. I currently am an assistant pastor of a church. So I have strong faith in God. And I believe that God is a designer of us and he gives us, each one of us, a unique, individualised plan and purpose for us to achieve while we're here on earth.

And where it saddens me deeply is I see people that have such potential, but yet they are almost like robots on a daily basis, to where they do not go towards that potential, or maybe they've just given up. And I have been that guy, whether I've pursued a purpose where I think God has given me vision, which would be merciful leadership and leadership development, because our podcast, because I get jazzed up when I'm able to tell my story.

But when I think about times where people have said things about me, or maybe I feel like that I've invested in something and I've been done wrong, I've decided to lay it aside and just become my robot self and work, provide for my family, go to bed, wake up and do it all over again. But I finally reached a of a switching point in my life. Over the last few years, I've seen it develop over time where I've engrossed myself not only into God's plan for my life to achieve that because I I don't want to disappoint on that end I don't want I want to fulfill what that purpose is But I've also surrounded myself with appropriate resources that have encouraged me whether it's through people who are like-minded people that give me good feedback of hey This is I see where you're going with this. Maybe you should try this, or I've actually created more of my own sacrifices to say I'm going after this 110 % I'm going to go all in and I have found myself my mindset to evolve over time in my spirituality to where I want to fulfill that plan and I never want to look back as I get over and say I wish I had have done this and when I do that that's going to be a disappointment to myself and I don't want to disappoint God my family or myself and so doing things just like today where you've given me the opportunity to share my story, I'm going to take that opportunity and I'm going to go 110 % and hopefully encourage other people because I think that's what my passion and purpose is, is to give my story and say, I've been there before. I've been that guy that's laid that aside, that's given up at points and times in his life just because it got hard or it was uncomfortable or somebody said something or somebody wrote a negative comment on social media. But really, what I'm really going after, if I can impact one life, one life, then I know that I'm fulfilling that purpose I've been given. And you can see behind me, and I do this strategically, and a lot of people don't know this, but behind me I have globes that are world globes that are behind me. And you today have given me an opportunity to speak to someone in Australia.

And I don't know where your audience spans with, but that's my goal back here. And that is to change the world with the message of hope and the message of merciful leadership. And to say, we've got to get back to making sure people feel valued because there are too many workplaces out there that treat people as their employee number or that just treat people bad in general. Take it out of the business context that we see so much negative in our world, but I still believe that there are good people with good intentions that have a purpose to fulfill. And I'm on a mission to help change the world. You see them behind me and I'm encouraging people as I go through that process. That's my wife.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:44)

That was worded so perfectly. And that is the most enthusiastic talk I have ever seen on the show. I know it has only been around for a few months, but out of more than 40 guests, that was the most enthusiasm. We went in a few directions that I wanted to look at more here. Guiding people beyond work. I'm curious about that. Because you talked about valuing everybody and

Dr Jeff Radford (26:52)

Thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:12)

I think the whole world is becoming a bit politically interesting at the moment. How do you think we can all see the humanity in everybody, regardless of their perspectives?

Dr Jeff Radford (27:27)

Yeah. Can I tell you, I'm still working on me in that area. think, I think we probably can easily go to this judgmental type mindset, to where if we see somebody in need, we're automatically, well, there's plenty of jobs around. Why are they in need? There's jobs around. I've been that guy. I still have to fight that guy at points in times. But I think what I have to do more importantly is, is remember, and I'll go back to the spiritual relationship that I have if that's okay. Remember that there's a God who overlooks my own failures because I fail as a person. I'm not perfect by any means. I have had a judgmental type lens at times where I've looked down on people, and that's not the right thing to do. So I have to remember that how can I extend the same love that I've been given, the same grace, the same mercy, which I talk about in the workplace that I've been given and see the impact of that. And when you do that and people are in the right intentions of the receiver, the other side, you see the impact. So outside of the workplace, charitable events where, you know, my family, and this is not bragging by any means, but my family has helped another family at Christmas time. And to see the eyes of the children light up when you give them a bicycle and presents, because they wouldn't have had anything for Christmas.

That's what I'm talking about. There are good people that are going through hard times, and they just need to have some kindness extended to them during the hard times. Or evaluate it further. Ask open-ended questions to say, kind of tell me further what's going on, versus being judgmental and shutting it off. And there are going to be people out there that are taking advantage of others. I've seen it happen in the world. But I go back to say there are still good people out, and I've seen it in all my travels, whether through work or through traveling on vacation, I see good people. And that gives me hope in humanity. And it's my purpose, my job, my calling is to be a good part of that and not be the negative end of that. So looking for ways to serve, looking for ways to give back, I think, is so important so we can extend kindness and continue it throughout.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:50)

Yes, for sure. And you said that you work at a church and you also work in another organisation. You work in nursing, and I'm wondering what inspired you to do both. And I'm hoping you could inspire more people to work in corporate or some sort of other organisations, but also serve the community because I saw in Australia at least that a lot of people just wanted to do jobs.

And they're not really looking so often at how they can also lead communities to bring people together. How do you think both of those cross over?

Dr Jeff Radford (30:30)

Yeah, so that's great. And I referenced Napoleon Hill again, because I think he's such an interesting individual. And when you read his work, he talks about charity and charitable giving. And then a lot of successful people, that's one of the keys, is that they continue to give, and all of a sudden it's given back. It's given back to them, and maybe an increase. And there's a scripture that talks about that. And actually, in the Bible, it talks about giving the other people, and you'll receive back. The intention is not to give back.

The intention is, is when you take your focus on yourself out of the way and just focus on other people, you'll be amazed at what comes back your way. So it's with the right intention that we give back. And so when I think about how I first got into healthcare, I truly got into healthcare because my dad was in it. My dad was an emergency medical technician in the rescue squad. He was a pastor, and I wanted to spend more time with him.

So I joined selfishly to spend more time with my dad. Over time, though, I realised that my nature was to take care of people. And whether it was through an ambulance service, in the back of an ambulance, taking care of emergency calls, or the decision to expand that by going to nursing school. And I found that my path, my doors just opened. It's really strange, but that's just my story.

That, although I had these career aspirations and that may have been selfish aspirations at the time, doors opened when they needed to open for me during my career. And I had to be willing to say yes to walk through those. And I found myself going from the bedside to the boardroom. It was a natural progression that I walked from nursing into my first leadership role, which was managing an orthopaedic practice of about 14 employees.

I didn't know what I was doing. I had 14 employees who relied on me. And back in those days, we hand-wrote the paychecks. It was really an antiquated type system. But as I worked through that, I started to realise that the words I said, people hung on to. Every interaction I had, they were looking at me. Every way I behaved, they were looking at me. I should have known that, as a preacher's kid, because that was the same thing when I was in the church.

People would always look at the preacher's kid and see how he was acting. But I found that in leadership. But I also found that when those doors opened, it wasn't about the title anymore. My perspective shifted. It was about what could I use that role to make the biggest impact? The way that I communicate, the way I influence, the way I interact, the way I get to know people. How can I help them grow? What can I do in my role to help them get to the next level?

How can I take my role now or social media, which is what I'm doing a lot these days to help encourage people now. And if your heart, and mind, and goal is to truly fulfill your passion and help other people, that energy is going to transpire into what you do each and every day. So I would encourage people is don't give up on your dream. Don't give up on your passion, no matter how hard it is. And there are some days where I post a video and I may have 10 views.

But do you know what I do the next day? I post another video because I had 10 views. 10 people watch that. That's important to me. I want thousands of people to watch it, but 10 people still watch this. So I'm going to keep putting out content because I'm going into my drive, my life. So don't give up, no matter the obstacles, no matter the blood, the sweat, the tears, how hard it is, the naysayers. If it's truly what you're called to do, go all in and quit messing with your other self, that imposter, because I'm an example sitting here that the doors have opened for me and now I'm in a regional role where I support 12 hospitals, but I used to be a 17 year old kid riding a 10 speed bicycle to the local rescue squad. I've been very blessed in my life, and I don't take that for granted.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:40)

That is very, very motivational. And I was going to ask all sorts of administrative questions, but to ride this wave for a moment of doing what we are designed to do. I'm very keen to ask you after you worked in areas where family had also worked. I'm so keen to ask. There'll be people out there whose family did any sort of work. It could be anything. And then they are wondering, do I want to do the thing that family did? And I've seen that occasionally on the show, some other guests ended up in that situation. And I'm wondering, did you have any learning curves of trying to find your own approach to the same industry or figuring out, okay, figuring out, it is really what you want to do and not just what the other generations did. How did you relate to all of that?

Dr Jeff Radford (35:43)

Yeah, I would use extreme caution that you're not family called. And families may not appreciate that answer, but I think you have to figure out things for yourself, for sure. There's a point in time in our life where we have to become independent. And we have to be independent thinkers and figure out what really, and you'll figure this out. For instance, not everybody enjoys healthcare. That's a fact. If it was, we wouldn't have a nursing shortage. But not everybody enjoys healthcare.

Not everybody enjoys manufacturing. Not everybody enjoys being a lawyer. Those type of things. And so if mom and dad and family say, come on in, this is what you're supposed to do, find your own voice. Let's go back to that. Find your own voice. Because if you get up every morning and you dread going into that, I would suggest that that may not be where you need to be. My daughter is a great example of that. I was so excited that she got accepted into a university into a nursing program, check mark, and then she also got accepted into the honours program into leadership, check mark. I was like, yes, my daughter's falling into my footsteps. Until a few months later, she called me and she said, Dad, I don't wanna be in nursing. And you know what I said to her? Not, hey, you need to just hold out and you need to keep on because this is where you're gonna be, job security, et cetera. I told her, Get out and get out fast, because if it's not something that she's passionate about, she will be miserable her entire life. And what's more important, living our life or letting life live us? I want your viewers. I want people to think about that. Are you gonna live and be in control of your life? Are you gonna let life be in control of you? I choose to be in control of my life because I know what excites me and what I love to do. And I love to do

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:22)

Yes.

Dr Jeff Radford (37:39)

Leadership, leadership development, what I'm doing now. So I told my daughter, I said, Get out. So then she goes into a sociology program, and she stays in that for just a little while, and she calls my wife and I, and she said, Dad, Mom, I don't want to be in this. I said, Get out, get out of there. And she went and she pursued her dream through a national college that's recognised in the field of music. And she got a degree in songwriting, and people will say,

Well, how's she going to make a living on that? I asked the same question. But what do I see while she's employed? She's taking care of herself. What do I see in her face and her actions? I see somebody that loves what she's doing, and she's writing words that make a difference to other people. And so that was her passion, her calling. I could have said, Go in my footsteps, but she would have been miserable the rest of her life. You have to find where you feel comfortable where you're passionate about despite the income. Now you have to take care of yourself and I'm all about that, but you have to be passionate about what you're doing. Otherwise, you're gonna be that robot who was programmed as a kid, and you're gonna just be miserable the rest of your life and not productive in the way you were designed to be. That's just how I feel about

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:56)

Definitely. Have you seen in the medical world in particular, have you seen that some workers have better results and create more value because they feel passionate about helping people? And yes, that's clear in your journey, but beyond that, I'm hoping that you can share more stories of how, when people really care,

And when it feels like they're calling to make a difference, then it can actually help the health of patients or the customers of whichever industry.

Dr Jeff Radford (39:36)

It's extremely palpable. When a nurse walks into a room, a patient can sense and pick up if they're there for the right reason or not. And here's what I mean by that. I've had several employees, team members, I prefer to call them team members. I've had team members go into a room, and a patient will send me a note, send me an email, write a letter, write a compliment to talk about the personality of that nurse, always going above and beyond, and then you immediately know they're doing the right thing for the right reason and not just for the pay check. I always have said to my staff, the paycheck is a benefit of what we do. All of us need the pay check. We need to live and survive and take care of ourselves. But the benefit of what we do is the pay check, not the reason.

We should be doing what we're supposed to do because it's exactly where we need to be. And you can see that. You can see the results in a hospital and the quality, the quality data that comes out, the retention, people who've been there a long time, all those types of things come together when people are in the right place, and you've picked the right people that went into the profession because that's what they're supposed to be doing. You can easily walk by somebody, and it's palpable when they're there for the wrong reason.

It is so much all over their face. They're disgruntled all the time, complaining all the time, and they just are miserable in what they're doing. It's very, very palpable. And it comes across. It comes across from their hands to the patient because the patient can easily and family perceive who's in there. And I've been on the other side. I've been on the other side as a patient. My family's been on the other side of a patient. And you can pick them out easily of the people that are loving what they do. You can go to Walmart here in the United States and pick out if the cashier loves their job or not. I have purposely said, because somebody has a frown on their face, how are you doing today? And it was the biggest mistake or one of them in my life, because they're gonna tell you and they're looking at the clock of when they're gonna get out of here, right? Or there's a guy in my local Walmart, his name is Jason. And why do I know his name?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:46)

Why?

Dr. Jeff Radford (41:58)

because Jason loves what he does. And when I see Jason, when I go into Walmart, we, my wife and I, go through his line because we just like talking to Jason. We need more Jason's out there. People who are in it for the right reason, whether it's in factory or retail or healthcare, that are in it for the right reason because it is very palpable among the customers, or patients, or families.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:23)

Definitely. I would love to tell you about my friend Kate. My friend Kate, months ago, she was becoming the face of some local brands in very localised ways, but she made the time to sit down for a coffee with me when I wasn't feeling all right. And then months later, she switched to become a mental health worker, just working directly with people. And she realized,

Dr. Jeff Radford (42:27)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:53)

She just wants to do that with anyone all day. And that really taught me something. And I hope that more people might do that, where it's not always about doing the most glamorous job, because if someone really cares about people, then they might want to be checking on individuals to check, are they okay? Because someone needs to be doing that. And I saw that some locals are finding the people who are passionate about it. And it seems like you saw that even in the Walmart. I'm curious. Do you know what motivates Jason to love doing that work?

Dr Jeff Radford (43:37)

I do not, but I have been drawn to him because even if he's pushing buggies carts out in the parking lot, I've been drawn just to say hi to him. Or if I'm not in his line, which I try to get in his line, but if I walk by and I see him, I say hello because I can just tell. He asks how you are doing. As he's putting the barcodes across the scanner of the products,

He's talking to you, he's engaging the customer. He's been there for many years. His service, his tenure, is very long at this specific store, and he's just genuinely a nice person. And when you go through his aisle, if he asks you how you're doing, you know he means it. You can feel it. And so you have a good conversation, which makes your experience a better experience at the store.

If you go through someone who's very negative and is talking down the entire time, you just can't wait to get out of there. You've not had the best experience at all. So I like the Jasons. I'm drawn to Jasons like that. Or people in healthcare specifically, where I've seen bad experiences with patients and I've seen good experiences with patients. And the good experiences come from the caregivers who truly are passionate about providing and doing the right, providing great care and doing the right thing all the time. That's what they, and when something goes wrong, they're immediately transparent about it, and they're part of the solution to fix the issue so it doesn't happen again. Whereas other people can just disregard it. I mean, you think about people who see trash in the hallway of a hospital. That's not a good thing for families and patients to see, a dirty hospital, right?

The people who own it are the people that will bend over and pick up the trash. And that seems simplistic, but that's an example. It's not even necessarily their role, but it becomes their accountability and ownership because they own the job, they own the environment, and they want it to be as best as it can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:50)

guessing you are saying that lives can actually be saved in some ways when people are nurturing the environment and the people over there to make sure that people are okay, because you are dealing with people's health.

Dr Jeff Radford (46:06)

That was so evident in COVID. So I'll go back to that experience. We had so many very, very ill patients. And there were some that I was concerned about. I was a CEO at the time, so was not a nurse at the bedside. I was a CEO of the hospital. But I would go into their rooms and just try to land an encouraging word. You can do this. You can make it. It will get better.

And even when the doctors maybe had some doubts, it was that you can do this. I'm visiting with you. You can get better. And my staff, not just me, but a lot of my staff members doing the same thing, just encouraging, creating a healing environment. A lot of the mindset, like mindset, is so important even when you're ill, because you don't necessarily have the energy. You have doubts. You wonder if you're gonna make it.

And even, you know, we call it the man code, right? When men get cold, people say you got a man code because we're always, I feel so bad. I can't make it. But a lot of us, the mindset is the thing we allow in there because we can overcome just sometimes through our mind and surrounding ourselves with great caregivers who come in and push us and encourage us and tell us they've seen this before. You say, OK, yeah, it's not just me then. This has happened to somebody else, and they've seen them go out there and walk.

We brought former patients in to visit patients to show that this person was just as sick as you were, and they went out and now they're working again. So we did things like that to encourage people. And one of my favourite stories happened during that time, where there was a younger patient without going into great detail, that had COVID and was very, very ill. And two or three times it was thought that he may not make it.

And just this year, this is after COVID, he's progressed, he's gotten better. Just this year, just a few weeks ago, actually, I attended his wedding, and he is driving again, he's married, and he has survived, and he's done such a great job. But I remember his mindset during that time, where he just didn't know if he was gonna make it, but we all rallied around him. He had a great family support unit, and now he just got married just a few weeks ago. So that's an example where it's so important in the healthcare world that we encourage each other and really try to nurture our patients and take care of them because it gives them an ounce of hope. And we should always give hope when hope is allowed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:39)

We are seeing the power of belief and hope. This is a significant lesson from you because you are clearly quite a speaker, and you work with religious beliefs and religious hope. But in your work, within a work context, you have seen that people can revive and heal. They are hanging on. I'm curious, what do you think it is? Is it that they have more willpower? Is that?

Dr. Jeff Radford (48:43)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:09)

Is it that they are perhaps trying to do more to heal, or just also that perhaps they are relaxed? People talk about the nervous system these days. Do you think there are all sorts of factors, or also something spiritual, whatever anyone might believe in, that's guiding people to simply heal more when they have more hope?

Dr Jeff Radford (49:32)

I think it's a multitude of things transparently, but I will say that some of the most strongest components I have seen is the person's faith and the person lacks faith, the faith of those around him or her who's encouraging is like you just take one more step. You got to go right. And it's people lifting their arms up, when they don't even feel like lifting their arms up because there are times where we just don't feel like it. But that's when our network of people kicks in gets us over the hump. Right? And I think that's so important to consider. So when I'm not my best self, I've got great people I've surrounded myself with that are the encouragers that help me get over the hump. And that's in any setting. Our own lives, our personal lives, that's hugely important about the people that we surround ourselves with. That's very, very important. I do think faith and spirituality is important. I've seen it. I've seen miracles happen. I've been part of miracles. Mission trip to Honduras. I've been part of a miracle, to where I know without even thinking that God is real, and I experienced a miracle on a mission trip to Honduras. So I've seen that from a faith perspective. People who have faith and pray and believe in a higher power to get them through, and so they remove themselves out of the woe-is-me, the victim mentality, and they rely on a higher power to get them through. I've seen the importance of that, seen the importance of prayer, of unity, of people unifying around someone, whether it's within the patient's room or across the world where people are sending emails and Facebook messages, et cetera. I'm praying for you. That gives hope. That gives encouragement because you've got a network of people that expand out from your small network that are encouraging and saying, I'm thinking about you today. I've seen that. I've seen little simple acts of kindness to where a gentleman that we had that had such breathing problems and we figured out a way to get him downstairs to the main lobby to play the piano one more time. And after that, he started to improve because it was something he was passionate about. And we opened the avenue for him to do that. And by that, I saw his demeanour change, and he began to get better to the point where he got out of the hospital. We had dinner together or lunch together three or four times after that because he was better and doing well, because we had nurturers and people around him, and we got him to do something that he really enjoyed doing. So those are different variables, but I would say outside of healthcare, I think you have to be careful about who you surround yourself with. If you have people inserting negative things all the way in your life, you'll feel devalued, you'll lose hope, you won't have strength, but you've got to tap into different things. I rejuvenate myself through motivational speeches, or I listen to YouTube videos that I know are encouraging to me, or I study work, personal development that I know is encouraging, where I can change my mindset and take control of it. Or just like we're doing today, I believe we're encouraging people today that when this comes out, somebody's gonna watch it and say, yeah, she's speaking to me or he's speaking to me. So these are the things that we have to surround ourselves with, with a positive environment, because it will work on our mindset and feed positive into our mind, versus if we feed ourselves with negative, we're going to lose hope and lose sight of what we're supposed to be doing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:00)

Do you think that everybody needs to find the people who will say the equivalent of pick up your mat and walk?

Dr Jeff Radford (53:09)

I think it's important. Now, I also think it's important that we find people that maybe don't always agree with us, right? So that people can realise that we're going down different avenues that maybe we shouldn't be. And that could be the same network of people, quite honestly, because it's transparency around us, right? Not people that are always putting us down or you'll never do this or whatever, but it's people that believe in us, that people are like-minded. And Napoleon Hill, I'll just throw that name in again, he calls it a mastermind. Mastermind of people that yet you can actually have good dialogue at the table about maybe this isn't the direction we should be going, but it's still like-minded people with the same values that we have. And that's where I want to stress that. So my wife is a wonderful example of that. She has the same values that I have, but she doesn't always agree with me. And that's okay, because it helps me see from a different perspective. But I know when I need encouragement,

I have a great helpmate to provide that for me. When I know that I'm in a little bit of a slump, I've got a great helpmate that recognises that and helps me along. So she essentially is that person that says, Take up your mat and walk, because we're like-minded. So that's where I would stress more is being like-minded people around you that have the same values and morals that you do. So they'll even be honest with you, and it may not be the feedback you want, but they'll give you feedback to say, this is where I see you're headed, without degrading who you are and your values. I think it probably catapults off of that to say you've got to have like-minded people around you that are just open and honest.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:44)

Definitely. Winding up, how can people continue learning from you? I know you are serving a church and you are serving your hospital world, but, or your nursing world, but I know you are motivating people so much, and this talk has been so powerful. So I'm curious, how can people connect with you beyond listening to this episode?

Dr Jeff Radford (55:07)

Yeah, no, thank you for that. I'm on the social media channel. So if you'll look at Jeff Radford or Dr. Jeff Radford, YouTube, Instagram, also Facebook and TikTok. I'm actually on TikTok. So I've learned a TikTok a little bit. I'm putting social media content out all the time. It's about leadership content. If you go to drjeffradford.com, you'll see my website. There's ways to connect with me there as well.

I have a book called Mercy Leader, if I could just hold it up and just let the people know. This is where I drive a lot of my own leadership values, try to practice them, try to continue to develop. So that's on Amazon. So that's a way to kind of know some insight of how I lead as a leader that I think is very positive in organisations. So, and then if you get on my website and shoot me some contact information, I'd love to interact with you or send me a direct message on social media. I'm the one that responds to that. Nobody else responds; it's me.

So send me a message, and I'd love to interact with you. And if there's any way I can encourage you, please let me know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:09)

Dr Jeff Radford, thank you so much for being on the show.

Dr Jeff Radford (56:13)

Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity, and thank you for the work you're doing as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:17)

I appreciate that so much. Thanks.

Disclaimer: this podcast episode is not medical advice.

See more about The Motivate Collective Podcast and get updates about the next events: https://www.motivatecollective.com

Show Notes

Keywords

intuition, decision making, personal development, intuitive skills, overcoming blocks, practical applications

Summary

This conversation explores the concept of intuition, emphasising that everyone possesses intuitive abilities, akin to a sport where some excel while others can improve. It discusses how to develop these skills, the role of intuition in decision-making, and how to overcome blocks that hinder intuitive processes. Practical applications of intuition in everyday life are also highlighted, showcasing its importance in personal and professional contexts.

Takeaways

Every single person is intuitive. Intuition can be likened to a sport. Some people excel at intuition, while others can improve. Developing intuitive skills is possible for everyone. Intuition plays a crucial role in decision-making. Overcoming blocks is essential for intuitive growth. Practical applications of intuition are found in daily life. Trusting your gut feelings is important. Everyone can enhance their intuitive abilities. Intuition is a skill that can be cultivated.

Titles

Unlocking Your Intuitive Potential The Power of Intuition in Decision Making

Sound bites

"Trusting your gut is important." "We all have it." "Every single person is intuitive."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Holistic Psychiatry 00:23 The Need for Medical Intuition Training

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Elizabeth, Samantha, welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast. How are you doing?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (00:06)

I'm doing well and doing well. It's wonderful to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:10)

I'm so glad for those out there who don't know what you do. What can you share about what you do for work and your background?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (00:24)

Well, I am I'm a holistic psychiatrist. I'm also a medical intuitive. I am really passionate about empowerment. I feel like there is so much potential for humanity, and I have a podcast as well called stepping into soul power that I do. Yeah, so I'm busy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:53)

You are, you are doing a bit of everything. So you are a psychiatrist as well. What does that, this feels like an obvious question asking what does that involve? But let's bust some myths around that. What's the reality of being a psychiatrist?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (00:57)

Yeah.

Yes.

You know, so I am so technically a medical doctor. went to medical school, did the rotations. I did a residency in psychiatry. So, med school is four years residency in psychiatry is four years. And I, then you get licensed in a state, right now I'm licensed in Texas and California. And, so I can, I can practice medicine. So right now the where psychiatry is right now, it's a lot of medication management. But I'm also really passionate about other healing modalities and therapy. I love it. I think therapy can be really, really helpful. So I do do that in my practice. But I like to think a little bit outside the box. And so when people come to see me, I think that there are many ways that you can get better.

And so I'm interested in getting to a good understanding of what the root cause is, which is a little bit different than what most psychiatrists right now do. Right now, feel like in the field, it's primarily symptom management. But I feel like we, collectively in the field, have kind of gone astray from what people truly want. People want us to help them solve their problems and to be just a collaborative force in that. So, I am in my practice, I'm interested in figuring out why people are there, looking outside the box, thinking outside the box and really empowerment for patients. Cause I feel like there are not enough psychiatrists, there are not enough therapists. And so whatever we can do to help people help themselves. Great.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:14)

Absolutely. Do you think that people have become dependent on therapists, and as much as it can be useful, there are moments in between when we can't get to someone for help, when we need to know what we can do for ourselves.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (03:32)

You know, I don't know if people are dependent on therapists. Maybe there are some. I feel like therapists are so busy. Like, yeah, yeah. I feel like we've got an access issue. ⁓ I do think that a lot of the work that happens is in between sessions. Is you living?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:42)

There isn't the availability.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (04:01)

your everyday life. That's where you get to apply a lot of the skills, if you're learning skills in sessions. So in many ways, that's where the real, I mean, it is helpful to be with someone and to have that interaction where you feel heard and where you learn things about yourself and how you view the world. think that is helpful, but there's a lot of learning that happens in life. Like life is a school.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:40)

Okay. What should we be learning? What can we be doing in our everyday lives to sort ourselves out, basically?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (04:52)

My gosh, this is my favourite. This is a great question. What should we be learning? I think that there are really important things. Number one, I would say, is being able to feel your emotions and manage your emotions. I think that a lot of, sometimes we get into problems when we don't do that.

And there are unhealthy ways that we as a society do to avoid emotions. And you see it all the time, like so people will either drink a little bit more than they should or smoke a little bit more than they should or eat emotionally to avoid feelings. So being able to regulate your emotions, feel your emotions, and then let go. Let go can be letting go of like tough things like guilt, shame, grief, can be hard, hard. So that's one thing. The other thing that I think is incredibly important is being able to master your energy. And I say this because I think it's such an important part. I'm a holistic psychiatrist, but I'm a medical intuitive. so I have some background in Reiki and energy healing. And so I think that some of the issues that I see when people start to have problems is when their energies are like all over, they don't know how to deal with it. And so being very clear about you know, what are the things that energise you, what drains you, having healthy boundaries, I think that's incredibly important. And then the other thing I would say that's really important is being able to be clear about who you are. And I say this because I think a lot of people, like when we're growing up for the first, let me, six, seven years, we're like sponges. We're just soaking up all the things that our parents say, that people in our community say, that the TV says. We're soaking it up. And some of those things that we soak up aren't really true to who we intrinsically are. So part of the maturation process that we've got to go through is kind of starting to know ourselves and then let go of the things that aren't us and that aren't serving us. So think those are tough to do, but really, I feel like are really incredibly important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:14)

Yes. Letting go of the things that are not us, that is especially crucial in this economy because a lot of us grew up with a traditional view of what a career should look like, of what an identity should be. And now we are all needing to have a bit more attention on ourselves in any form. And we are needing to differentiate ourselves.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (08:30)

Wow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:42)

I think it's a very interesting time in history and that mindset shift really flows into letting go of some of those feelings of maybe shame, maybe nervousness of some sort, but also letting go of the beliefs that we grew up with. What sort of limiting beliefs have you seen in people and in yourself?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (09:08)

Beliefs. This is a big topic. I am a bit of a perfectionist. I've grown, and part of that, I will say in my background, that I grew up in a very Catholic, and I'm not knocking Catholic, Catholic, the establishment, but I grew up in a very strict, Catholic household, there were lots of rules. In order to like, and my dad, you know, my parents had lots of kids, lots of kids. So you were just, pardon me?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:53)

Lots.

Lots? What, how many kids did they have?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (09:59)

So we're a blended family. My mom, for my mom, my mom's got four kids, but my dad has nine kids. He also adopted, I know. Why are you looking at me? Your face was like, girl. Let me just say this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:17)

Sorry! I'm a maid!

Wow, okay so.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (10:28)

So I have a Ugandan background. I was born in the US, but I have a Ugandan background. in Africa, way that kids are looked as like having a child is like being wealthy, right? So there's that mindset, like children bring you wealth. they're just not a...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:39)

Right.

That's interesting.

So children were seen as part of abundance.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (10:50)

yeah, yeah, yeah, and when you don't have kids, is, it's,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:57)

like you're missing out.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (10:59)

Yeah, yeah, it's tough. And I feel for the women in Ugandan society, when they don't have kids, it is that there's a lot of heartache that goes into that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:12)

We'll explore that for sure because that's a whole topic in itself for every country to think about. But so your mum had a few kids, and your dad had more kids.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (11:24)

Yes, yes, yeah. That culture is just; there are lots of rules. There are just so many rules. And so I think there was just some programming where I was just taught, like you gotta perform, you have to do well in school, like all of that stuff. And I did, but like, when you grow up in a space like that, there can be an internal dialogue where I am not enough, because, you know, it's always like, you can do better, better, better, better. You know, Catholicism, I'm not knocking cat. Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:06)

Okay, actually, let's unpack this for a second.

So there was the Catholic angle of you wanted to feel good enough and be good enough. But also, were you also trying to stand out in essentially a group of kids trying to even be seen?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (12:18)

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes, yes. And so that is a limiting belief that I really had to work through because I think I went to a lot of institutions. I went to great schools, great. I went to Brown University. I went to Johns Hopkins University, University of Michigan, Ann Arbour. Great schools. In those institutions, like I was, you know, I'm like the black girl. It was like, you know, there are not a lot of people that look like me, so, dealing with things that come up with, and then the other thing too, right, my parents,

My parents didn't pay for my education. I got loans. And that's not the case for quite a few people at an institution at Brown. So there are class differences. I remember when I was arriving at Brown, I had one suitcase, right? One.

And my roommate had like suitcases upon suitcases upon suitcases. Yeah, so dealing with class differences, race differences as I've like progressed and having to really learn to appreciate me, like what I bring to the table and that even though I might be a little bit different, I am adding something of value and that I belong. And I've gotten to a much better place with that, but it was a process. I'll tell you a story. When even, so look at my hair, right? Hair, huh? Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:37)

It's amazing, I love it. It's so good.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (14:43)

Thank you. But when I was growing up, it was just bad, like having my hair straightened was a really big thing. Like I think for years I wore my hair straightened. And then it was a really big deal when I decided to cut it off and then just grow my hair naturally.

Like I said, it's been a process learning to love me and know that I'm enough and that I belong. And so I think that is what a limiting belief that I've struggled with and that I see a lot of people struggle with. And you can tell this because, think about what happens when we watch TV. People are selling someone, and basically something, and basically the message is you're doing it wrong, you're not enough, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we get it from a lot of different places. And it takes some courage, self-awareness, and maybe a little bit of grit and persistence to want to push past that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:02)

Yes. And the appearance, that's an interesting one because I think a lot of us listeners, almost everybody will feel self-conscious, feel awkward about something about our appearance. And as a psychiatrist, I trust that you can guide us in making peace with our appearance. And there's a lot of body image confidence these days, I recently sharing with another guest that

Elizabeth Ssemanda (16:27)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:31)

I most half of my life, I felt very embarrassed because there's a long scar across half of my tummy. And so, growing up, if you remember the old era of Britney Spears, Christina, and all the crop-top era, I felt so embarrassed. I felt, you know, a lot of shame basically. And everybody would have something they feel embarrassed about with their appearance. So I'm curious.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (16:47)

Yes!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:00)

How do you guide people to make peace with how they look and feel proud about it?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (17:08)

You know, I think it starts with awareness and being clear about what exactly is going on. What I ask people to do is maybe start paying attention to the dialogue, the thoughts that are going on. And I'm almost taking taking yourself like as if you're on the outside looking in. Like, oh, what is this person saying? And sometimes if you recognise, oh, this sounds like my mother. It might have come from that. So, paying attention to those thoughts, you'll have a better sense of, okay, well, what's the origin?

You know, being very clear, like, this true for me? You know? And that's another question I ask people to think about. Then I, you know, it's important to, you said something really interesting, to make peace, right? There are aspects of ourselves that I like to think about, like the shadow that we push away to the side, and when we don't acknowledge them, they'll seep into different things and start causing issues and get us into some challenging situations. And so.

Being clear as far as you're clear about the thoughts, you're thinking about the source, where is this coming from? You're also thinking about how you want to relate to them and how you want to relate to yourself. And one thing that I challenge people to do is, when I think of peace, it means coming to some sort of understanding or, yeah, coming to an understanding or moving toward the space where you can coexist. And I like to go into the heart space and ask people to listen to the heart, connect to their heart for guidance, as to like how to navigate that. Because I feel like for many of us, a lot of times we know the answer. We have such great wisdom within us. But I think part of the challenge that we have is that many times we either don't listen to it or there's so much noise going on that we can't hear the wisdom that our inner self is trying to tell us.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:31)

What does that noise look like? Is it the other opinions around us? Is it scrolling on our phones? Is it something else?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (20:41)

yeah, yeah. So other people's opinions, like I think for many, many times we care a lot about what other people think, right? It's kind of like what you said before, like, I mean, shame is real. Like, and, and, and, it takes a lot of courage to be authentically ourselves in this society. Cause people will say some, some things that, really like, like daggers to the heart.

And, so the noise is other people, the noise is like sometimes the things that we do, like, so even things like work can be a distraction to like we can find other ways to not be here. Sometimes getting preoccupied with the past is a can can be the noise of being preoccupied with the future can be noise and like you said scrolling like it is it is a phenomenon just how addictive cell phones can be. I yeah they made them to be that way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:51)

They are.

Yes, it's designed to be addictive. I'm wondering if you have looked into it all, how they are apparently designed a bit like gambling, especially the apps, the way we are meant to relate to them. And I'm wondering if you've seen the impact on adults or children or both with the addiction, because I'm really worried.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (21:58)

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, I'm worried too. You see it in a society, you can't go to a restaurant where someone isn't looking at their phone or on their phone, or people are having dinner and everyone's on their phone, or kids are on their tablet. think it's had, think that it's technology, the internet has been great in a couple of ways. Like, yeah, we're able to text each other, we can FaceTime, like that's great, that's wonderful. But, it's, it's taken, I feel like in some ways we are socially stunted, especially when we are in the presence of other people, like physical presence, like the quality of that interaction has changed because something is here blocking that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:07)

Yes.

Yes, it's the phones and also post-COVID as well. think in every country, people took a few years to relearn how to be social and to convince themselves to get out there. Do you think so?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (23:13)

And go ahead. Absolutely. And they're still going through it. Like I remember practising psychiatry before COVID and then, and now practising it afterwards. And the social anxiety has definitely gone up. Definitely gone up. Like it is, it's a whole different ball game. And I think that

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:47)

Really?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (23:57)

I mean, I think we've got to start to be very intentional about how we use devices and what value they add. Then with everything, right, there are pluses and minuses. And what is having this device in this particular instance? In what way is it?

Is it interfering with how I want to connect with another person?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:30)

Yes. And I'm wondering about our need to present ourselves online because I know that we can connect, and people can feel more connected with us from a distance when we are sharing a chunk of our lives. But I'm seeing my own habits that I think a lot of people are doing as well, where frankly, too many times I went walking at the beach and I got in the habit of take a video, take a photo of it and check how many people are looking at it. And we have forgot how to just go into nature or go and explore without showing it to the world. And do you think that for anyone who is, I mean, you have a personal brand and you are doing your independent work, and I'm curious, how do you...

Elizabeth Ssemanda (25:02)

Nah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:24)

How do you balance having a personal brand and still having some privacy, and also just some time where you're not having that spectacle mindset of life being a performance?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (25:39)

geez. don't know. So I have a personal brand. I don't know if I feel like you're saying that I put the whole ton of thought into it. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:48)

⁓ we all... Okay,

we're all on the internet in some way, I'll say that.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (25:53)

Yeah,

I am on the internet. Hmm, I feel like I tend to be, there's some aspects of my life that I will not share that are sacred to me. And I think as individuals, you know, we have to start being clear about what that line is and being able to understand, like, where does, when does it get detrimental to our psychological well-being? I think that, especially for younger people, I know that they've done studies, is that the more posting, the more scrolling that younger people do, they tend to be more anxious, more depressed. So I think having limits, boundaries. I mean, I know for kids, like, we've got screen time limits. And I know some tech people who will not let their kids use tablets at all. So I think a big chunk of this is really listening to ourselves and ⁓ being clear about what's healthy for us.

It's that question, you know, is this bringing value to me? And is it also positively affecting my health? And being able to say yes to those things. And if it's no to either one, making changes as needed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:51)

Absolutely. So with this screen time for kids, I'm just going to use this opportunity to ask about it. If you have looked at this a bit, because I saw some experts and specialists saying that the device can be emotionally regulating. Is that just a bit of an excuse? I don't feel convinced that it's the best emotional regulation.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (28:17)

Hold on.

I haven't heard that. I think I'm a big believer that people need to regulate their emotions. And I feel like parents have a very special place in modelling emotion regulation to their children. And I'm a huge believer in parents really teaching this to their kids.

I think that in older generations, I don't necessarily think that healthy ways of regulating our emotions were modelled, but there's so much right now that you can, I mean, you can get decent, I feel like people have video, but you got therapists that are out there like saying, hey, this is what you do. So I think there's, yeah, wouldn't, I would ask people to take responsibility for their lives and to be the ones that regulate their own emotions and then model that to their kids and not have a device. It's like me saying, like, my cell phone regulates my, what? No. My computer does. Stop it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:36)

Nice.

Totally just don't. Awesome. I'm so keen to get a bit more light for a second to normal edit this. don't just want to give this a bit better light. Okay. That's a bit better. So I'm curious, what other issues have you seen in the psychiatry space? What other issues do individuals have where the intuition could be helping them?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (29:51)

Yes.

I don't know what-

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:18)

or listening, listening to what they know.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (30:24)

I feel like intuition can be helpful in all scenarios, like incredibly helpful in most scenarios. think it's important to know when it's into, I feel like there are some things that can make it tough to hear our intuition. Like when we're in a state of fear, when we are doubting ourselves, it can be tough to really hear that inner voice or really pay attention to what.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:29)

everything.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (30:52)

You know, our inner self is trying to tell us. But I feel like it can be helpful in anxiety. I feel, you know, in managing past traumas. I feel like, I mean, I think that intuition, this is a part of our everyday life. I think what the challenge a lot of us have is learning to trust ourselves and follow through with what our intuition is trying to tell us. think many times we may ignore it, and then we end up in trouble.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:31)

we do. Okay, so have you ever done that to yourself?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (31:31)

Big trouble.

yeah, I'm human.

I'm a work in progress. I am a work in progress. think that sometimes I think I really am very, I care a lot about people, and sometimes I'll get a feeling like, maybe this is not the best relationship for you, but I'll be like, Sometimes I see the potential and might ignore some things, but I've gotten a lot better with that program.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:22)

Right, right. So one thing I was really keen to ask about is how you combine your scientific background and the Reiki background, because often we see the Reiki side and those alternative modalities as very separate from the mainstream, but you have brought both together. So I'm curious, how did that happen? And

And do you always do both together? What do you say to those who are trying to keep those two spaces separate?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (33:03)

Okay, so I'll clarify a couple of things. I do, so I have my psychiatry practice, but my psychiatry practice is like, I've sequestered it; it's psychiatry, medication management, therapy, and we'll talk about other healing modalities, but I don't do Reiki in my psychiatry practice. I will say that it is possible, I know of people who do both, who combine Reiki and psychotherapy. And there are a lot of benefits to actually doing that. I think, I don't know, have you had Reiki before?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:48)

There was some Reiki from the teachers when I was at yoga class. So there was a bit, but I haven't had a dedicated session of only receiving Reiki.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (34:03)

Oh, okay, okay. Well, so a lot of times, many times, when you're getting reiki, a lot of people feel very relaxed. And that is a wonderful, can be a really helpful state to be in if you're doing some type of psychotherapy. Or if, let's say you are someone that is a bit of an over-thinker. Sometimes, like even just going into a psychiatrist's or a therapist's office, you're like, it's anxiety-provoking. But I would say maybe, maybe if they included something like Reiki, where you relaxed, you would be more open to, to kind of getting to the heart of some of the issues. So there's a lot of potential there. And I do know people who are combining, but I don't at this time. I have this certification, I'm just not doing that right now in my practice. I think I might, I don't know. I love combining the two.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:09)

Any?

Yes, for those

who don't know, think we should explain what Reiki is.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (35:21)

So Reiki is a type of energy healing. So, usually, whoever the practitioner is will send you energy. And a lot of people who are Reiki practitioners are fairly intuitive. And so may pick up information about your body as they're doing it. So it can be really helpful. The thing is, it's not all woo woo. know. They're even at the, I know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:00)

No, I'm glad you're saying that. We're all thinking it. It's, I think the intuition has been discredited far too much by the scientific world in recent decades, even though it's very normal for anybody to suspect something or have a hunch that they can't totally explain, or they think I'm just pretty sure something might be happening, but I can't quite find it.

So what exactly is the intuition to you, and how do we translate that to the people who don't quite understand it?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (36:42)

So we, I will say this, every single person is intuitive. Everyone is. It's just, I'll say like, there are some people, it's like a, let's say it's a sport, we can think of a sport. There are some people who are great, who are like Michael Jordan, and they're great at intuition. And then there are other people who are like, can dribble the best, but we all have it.

I think there isn't a lot of formal training for it. Yeah, I would say it all. I don't think in most academic institutions, they don't even talk about it, but we use it all the time. We use it. many practitioners, right? Like any people who are in the medical field, will be able to get a sense of things and it will help them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:49)

Actually, there's a point.

I'm curious about that. So in medicine, do you sometimes think I'm pretty sure this thing could be happening, but I'd need to do a few tests to be totally sure to clarify to prove it, but it totally feels like it has to be this thing going on.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (38:00)

to clarify. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, we all, mean, this is part of the human experience. It's part of the human experience. And I think that there is so much potential if, while people were in medical school or residency, we helped people fine-tune that skill so they can be even better diagnosticians. I think that, you know that that is the dream that we would really rather than I think it's important to understand a set of skills like everyone every doctor should know this, but really, really helping an individual person be first of all understand who they are, but then be able to know and use the strengths that they have.

And being able to really develop their intuition is a part of that. And for me, I am a huge fan of medical intuition and think there's so much potential there and would love to see it taught in, like I said, medical schools, residencies in nursing schools, think it would be great.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:39)

Absolutely. What do you say to the medical professionals and to the academics out there who need a bit of convincing that intuition needs to be taught? And what would that look like? Would you have something in a curriculum, or would it be simply a culture that's encouraged all the time?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (40:02)

You know, I think that...

You know, I feel like I can testify to the experience that I've had as a physician, because I went through medical school the regular way. I went through medical school, where I memorised everything, and I studied for the tests. ⁓ And after learning medical intuition, I saw how I was working a lot harder than I needed to. So when you're a medical intuitive, you are fine-tuning your intuition so that you get intuitive knowledge, right? And you might ask,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:48)

Working harder.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (41:11)

Different questions than if you just kind of went with how things always are, right? Like, so like in psychiatry, we've got a standard protocol of like, these are all the questions that you need to ask. And so maybe you might focus on all those questions when really, like, this person would benefit from something that's not even on that list.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:34)

Yes, so there are other questions that need to be asked and the tradition, the standard doesn't ask about those other things.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (41:38)

Yes!

Yes,

Absolutely, and that's where I feel like there's a huge place for medical intuition for catching those things that aren't ordinary, for things that are zebra. I feel like it saves the patient a lot of time. It's not easy to be sick. It's not, it sucks.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:04)

No, it's not. And do you think sometimes is part of the problem that things are so clinical that in some medical spaces, people are only focusing on the things that look medical when maybe a lifestyle factor could be impacting someone's health?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (42:28)

Yeah, think that there is truth to that. I think we've got to start looking at the whole person. And that means mind, body, and spirit. And we need to, because our patients are, they, like we've got to do better. And they deserve the best.

And so we've got to change.

If we are really going to be dedicated to excellence, that has to be a part of wherever medicine is going, this new era. Because AI is changing the game.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:12)

Yes.

Okay, let's talk about that for a moment. We have so much to talk about. AI, what have you seen with AI and your field?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (43:24)

So like I said, I was practising medicine before AI showed up. Then, after, I remember practising medicine when we had paper charts. But now things have changed. I think documentation has gotten a lot easier. Like AI will do it for you. But there are things that AI doesn't notice. There is something about having a conversation with a real person.

You can have words. They can pick up words, but there is communication in the way something is said, like girl or girl. Yeah, there are nuances, and then there are cultural differences. And I will tell you this, that AI right now is much more...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:06)

Hopefully.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (44:22)

Like it's really biased towards Western thinking. So, think about all the cultures where people aren't put in, like if it's not English. So there's a lot of things that are being, there are some things that are being missed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:37)

So, cultural factors are not always going into the AI input.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (44:42)

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So that is another thing. And people, I know that people are using AI as companions. Some people are using them. I don't even know if I should say, but people are using them in all different types of ways.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:02)

I guess if there's anything we can censor, can, but you can go in any direction and then let me know what we should chop or beep at.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (45:14)

Yeah, well, I think that there's a lot of potential with AI, but AI is only gonna be as good as the people who are using it. And so that doesn't excuse us from not developing ourselves. We have to be smart too. We're the people that put in the prompts.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:44)

Yes. And that's something we all need to understand. And I found that I was at risk a bit because I trusted AI to inform my decisions based on what it could learn from me online. But of course the internet just gets the best version of me. And I had to tell AI the parts of the worst of the reality.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (45:49)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:13)

If it was going to make a more informed decision, it can't just go with what's online. And I think this logic, I wish that everybody could have had a bit of a techie background because I grew up around tech-minded people who said, aside from the old turn the computer off and on again, of course, we all heard that, but also, any program software, anything like that, any computer is only as good as the information it receives from the person who gave it information.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (46:48)

100%. 100%. So we've got to get smarter. We've got to know ourselves. We've got to develop ourselves. We've got to know our strengths and then capitalise on that. I think that as human beings, there is so much potential that we have for greatness. And we're barely tapping into it. But I have hope.

I definitely have hope.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:19)

Do you think that part of the solution is to create more opportunities for a human connection? I've been somehow coming back to this quite a bit on the show recently because you talked about, of course, the doctor-patient connection, but beyond that, you're seeing, we talked before, actually, about how people need to remember how to connect with community. What do you think that looks like? Do you think in your area or any way you have seen, do you think people need more groups do you think people need the courage to even start a conversation? Where do you think we are with all of that?

Elizabeth Ssemanda (47:57)

I feel like there's such, there's an epidemic of loneliness. I think that people connect digitally, but there's a huge, I don't know the exact numbers, but I do know that it's true, that people may be around other people, but feel lonely. And so there, I think we were meant to be in community. And there is something that is incredibly therapeutic about being in the,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:58)

Thank

Yes.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (48:26)

presence of another person, especially when that person hears you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:31)

Yes. And I wanted to urge anyone who is at a screen a lot to balance it out with the opposite. Yesterday, to give you my experience of just a day ago, I had three podcast recordings and one extra appointment on the computer. Aside from that, I was basically talking to a screen for about four hours. After that, I went to the beach. Just got some sun and let the waves toss me around for a bit. And then I saw family for a moment, and then I went to yoga class around other people. How would my brain have been going if, after four hours of screen time, I then just stared at a meditation video on YouTube? There's nothing wrong with those. But if I was just going from screen to screen, I think sometimes

Let me know if you agree. The solution, the therapeutic solution, is not always another screen as much as they have their place.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (49:39)

Absolutely, absolutely. is, let me, so what you are doing is you ground, you're getting grounded. You're doing a lot of things, right? So you're going to the beach, you're getting grounded, you're feeling that the sand underneath your toes, you're also going outside and getting there. There is healing energy from the sun. That's where we get our vitamin D. So you are, you are nourishing yourself in that way. I am, and there is something about being outside. I don't think we were meant to spend, know, I don't know, 20 whatever, or I don't know, 16, 18, 20 something plus hours a day inside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:23)

Yes, totally.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (50:25)

And definitely not in front of a screen, but we do it. Like I'll be honest with you, like I've had jobs where it's been entirely remote and I've been, you know, from eight to six seeing patients, boom, boom, boom, boom,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:40)

Elizabeth Samantha, thank you so much for being on the show.

Elizabeth Ssemanda (50:45)

You're welcome. It was a pleasure to be here. Many blessings to you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:49)

You too, bye.

Keywords

substance abuse, trauma, denial, recovery, addiction, mental health, coping mechanisms, emotional pain, alcoholism, avoidance behaviors

Summary

In this conversation, Kerrie Atherton discusses the complex relationship between substance abuse and trauma, emphasizing how avoidance behaviors often lead individuals to cope with emotional pain through alcohol and other substances. She highlights the role of denial in addiction and the importance of recognizing when one's life is out of balance as a crucial step towards recovery.

Takeaways

Avoidance behaviors are often rooted in trauma.

People cope with feelings through substances.

Alcoholism is often described as a disease of denial.

Many deny their substance issues until hitting rock bottom.

An inner sense of imbalance can signal the need for change.

Recognizing uncomfortable feelings is key to addressing addiction.

Understanding motivations behind substance use is crucial.

Recovery begins with acknowledging the problem.

Emotional pain can lead to unhealthy coping mechanisms.

Finding peace requires confronting underlying issues.

Titles

The Hidden Pain Behind Substance Abuse

Denial: The First Step in Addiction

Sound bites

"We drink our feelings, we ingest our feelings."

"Alcoholism is called the disease of denial."

"Is there could be something really out of balance here?"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Kerry Atherton

00:58 Counseling Background and Early Intervention

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Kerry Atherton, welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast. It's great to have you on the show.

Kerrie Atherton (00:08)

Thank you, Melanie. It's great to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:11)

For those who don't know, what exactly do you do?

Kerrie Atherton (00:16)

I actually wear a lot of hats, Melanie. I've been working in the addiction, mental health, and trauma space for around 20 years now. So I'm a coach, a counsellor, a speaker. I host community events called Stories of Hope Worldwide. And I've been doing that for eight years now so that people that are going through difficult times don't have to feel alone in their pain and that they've got tangible hope through the stories of other people that have come out the other side to hold on to. And I'm also an author, and I have my own podcast, which I launched last year, called Stories of Hope Inspiring Humans with Kerry Atherton.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:58)

Amazing. What did you write about in your book?

Kerrie Atherton (01:01)

So my books are actually a collection of stories of some of the most powerful, inspiring ⁓ stories of powerful people that I've interviewed, actually, or who have taken to the stage at my Stories of Hope events. I've tried to vary the stories as much as possible. And in the first two books, volume one and volume two, they are six stories of six men and six women in each book. And they're people that have just really been to the brink of darkness and despair, and they've come out the other side. And it's their stories of hope, of how they did that, and the tools and strategies. And then my third book, Lightbulb Moments Through the Eyes of Men, I started to formulate that book through COVID when our events were closed down and we couldn't meet together.

I started interviewing inspirational people who had stories of resilience, of overcoming lots of difficult things. And I wanted to share those interviews online at the time with people who just felt like, well, look, COVID struck, and they may not have been through other things, and they were wondering how they were going to get through COVID. So I'm like, well, let's put some power out there and some stories of people that have really come back from the brink and give everybody in the world hope.

that they can, if hope can happen for those people, it can happen for them too. And so then I also became very aware that our male suicide rate was really on the rise. And so I decided to make that book specifically for men and for men's mental health. And as an early intervention tool, also for guys to realise that they don't have to go to the bottom or wait for that light bulb moment, that they can pay attention to those small warning signs or make those changes if they're battling with addictions or whatever, early. So those 15 stories are from men from the age of 22 to 82 from all around the world who have been through all different kinds of situations. And then my last book is a mind management journal, and it's largely focusing on the aspects of cognitive behaviour therapy.

And the fact that it just doesn't take 21 days to change a thought or a belief, over 63 days, you can really strategically change how you think about things and the way that you move forward.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:43)

Amazing. What personal experience led you to get involved in all of this?

Kerrie Atherton (03:50)

Well, I've been through a lot of childhood trauma, and I was an alcoholic and addicted to pills from the age of 10. And so I got sober at 18. And at that point, at 18, my rock bottom was wanting to end my own life. And I had a kind of a divine intervention that day that stopped me from doing that. And I became very passionate about suicide prevention.

because I had been suicidal from 10 right through to 18.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:24)

And let's unpack that. How does that end up happening?

Kerrie Atherton (04:31)

I was extremely troubled. There was a lot of trauma in my life. I grew up with two alcoholic parents. They were very loving parents, I just felt very insecure and very... Things were very uncertain. And with the environment, with my mum, I just didn't know what was going to happen from one day to the next.

My dad was sober before I was born and so I never saw him drunk and my mum used to drink at night so I never actually saw my parents drunk but it was what was going on with my mum she had bipolar and was very very depressed and and I was the eldest of two brothers so I felt an immense responsibility also to look after my mum and I had three very traumatic events by the age of 10 and I was put on antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication and I became addicted to that medication and then I picked up alcohol for the first time at 15 and I was like an instant alcoholic. I couldn't stop at one drink. I ended up paralytic every time I did drink. turned 20. Paralytic is when you have no control over your emotions. You're almost paralysed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:47)

Let's go.

Kerrie Atherton (05:55)

And I had blackouts, I would get blind drunk. I only ever set out to have one or two drinks and to just take that edge off life, to just feel, to just try and feel normal, to be able to have a conversation with people at a party, to just give me that little bit of confidence to escape from depression, escape from fear, escape from anxiety, escape from social anxiety. But

In an alcoholic's brain, there's a part that is different to a normal brain, and that switch that tells you when to stop drinking just doesn't work. So every time I set out to just have a couple of drinks, I would end up not being able to remember what had happened. And I would end up waking up on people's fences and in different people's houses and not knowing how I got there.

And the question I would always ask the next day, when I was going through the hangover, was, I only set out to have a couple of drinks. What happened?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:04)

That's a big question. How does that happen? You just did you just think one more or did you, I'm curious, did you feel less impact after a drink and were you in that moment after a drink one or two thinking I'm fine, what difference does one more make? And did it then just go a step further?

Kerrie Atherton (07:28)

We see, I don't know what happened because that's the thing, that part, as I said, in the brain of an alcoholic, that logic switch that says, it stopped now, it just doesn't work, it's not there. And as much as I tried to just have a couple, I just crossed that line and never know how it ended up happening. And this was a pattern with my drinking, and I've been sober since I was 18, so many, many years, and I sit in AA meetings, I've heard thousands and thousands of stories, and they're all the same, that one drinks too many and a hundred's not enough. So abstinence is fine, but if you pick up that first drink, there's no guarantee what will happen once we pick up that first drink. Whereas a social drinker can just have one or two and know that they can, and there's no adverse consequences from that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:27)

It has to be all or nothing. Do you see yourself getting addicted to anything else in life? Have you seen people translating that to then switch to becoming a workaholic or just wanting a bit more and a bit more of something else?

Kerrie Atherton (08:44)

It's a very good question because there definitely is a percentage of the population that do carry the addictive gene and doesn't mean that they're all alcoholics, but usually people that are alcoholics or have substance abuse disorders, there's usually a dual addiction. So I was also addicted to the. the pills, so I used to abuse pills and then prescription medication. And then there was the alcohol. I got very bored, so I would change boyfriends and jobs regularly. I used to go to clubs and I'd play poker machine. So I often lost money on poker machine. So I had a gambling problem also, you know, in the early days of drinking and getting sober.

I'm addicted to earrings. I've got a pair on today.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:43)

to translate that as an addiction to buying new things, maybe an addiction to, getting consumer products that can shape your appearance that can translate and other people might have a similar addiction. And where do you draw the line? Where do you say this is becoming an addiction? Are you saying that you are getting so many earrings that it affects the rest of your life? Maybe through your budget or things getting cluttered, something like that.

Kerrie Atherton (10:14)

And that's a very, that's fantastic question. And I actually was really grappling with this when I was doing some work around addictions recently. And look, what I came up with was if we call them indulgences, because everybody in life indulges in something, but it's the, is the cost? And is that cost becoming damaging to yourself or people around you?

And so I think that's the really big question there with is something an addiction? I mean a lot of people that break the alcohol and drug cycle go on to exercise because exercise releases endorphins and it's one of especially for men the greatest known positive strategy to help them with their mental health.

But exercise in itself becomes an addiction for so many. But here's the question: Is it something that's harmful to them or others? Usually not. So it's finding those positive strategies, and maybe people with the addictive personality will always do things a little bit to the extreme, but it's trying to maintain that self-control and that balance of

Okay, well, let's not let this get out of balance and out of control.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:42)

think anything can become a slippery slope. I read Russell Brand's book about addiction years ago, and he said, we can get addicted to anything at all. And the slippery slope with exercise is if you were exhausting yourself to the point where you are maybe feeling unwell, then you're taking it too far. If you are, now I'm the opposite of athletic. Also, I'm not saying this as an expert.

But any of us can push ourselves to try to achieve something as exhausting that's beyond what our bodies can handle, instead of gradually building up to it. There are ways where we could be addicted to achieving something in anything and then it goes too far. And so that's part of what we're talking about here, figuring out how we can do something without it going too far, but still stretching ourselves.

And for something really destructive, like pills and drinks, it could be saying, okay, it could be about saying, let's not have any of that. But with other things that we do need in our lives in some way, I mean, the medication you are taking for someone else, it's helpful. For you, you couldn't stop. And that can happen with anything. It's why so many people are workaholics. It's why some people go out to too many parties. It could be anything.

Kerrie Atherton (12:55)

Yeah.

And that's great insight. And I guess the question is, what's the reason or motivation behind what I'm indulging in? So a lot of people that I coach and counsel who are workaholics or have burnt themselves out or struggled with overwhelm, they may not have the addictive personality, but what's driving them is their need for love and approval and acceptance. And it may be, not in all cases, but in some people that I've counselled and worked with, they've been brought up with the sense that achieving is the thing that is going to be recognised. And that's what they were praised for by their parents. And if they felt that they didn't achieve, then they were insignificant or wouldn't be loved. So they've developed that core self-belief that in order for me to be loved and accepted in this world I must be a high achiever. And often that person, that belief can drive people to go on to become workaholics. I guess in my case and in the case of a lot of people that struggle with actual substance abuse, the avoidance behaviours is to avoid the pain of trauma in most cases. So we drink our feelings, we ingest our feelings, we eat our feelings. So it's looking at that behaviour, indulgence, whatever you want to call it, and okay, what's the motivation behind this? I think everyone in this, alcoholism is called the disease of denial.

And often people that have a drug problem too will deny that they do until they hit rock bottom. But I think deep down in everybody's psyche they have this inner sense of this is something's out of control here. And when we don't like that feeling that we're sitting with and it's not creating peace, well, that's when to pay attention and go, okay, well, does this need looking at?

Is there could be something really out of balance here because balance really is the key to a happy life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:35)

Whatever balance looks like, and balance could be leaning in one direction one day and another direction another day, but we're saying don't let anything wreck you too much. So you mentioned the counselling. What sort of counselling background do you have?

Kerrie Atherton (15:53)

Well, I have a diploma in community welfare counselling and I also having my own lived experience of over 40 years in Alcoholics Anonymous, I have so much experience in that field. I've been working with people all my life in the community as a community leader, people that were really at risk, the homeless.

I've worked in schools for 12 years with troubled teenagers, running programs, I've written programs for youth in schools. And I see myself as an interventionist because I think early intervention and prevention is so much greater than cure. And my mission and my drive was knowing that I was a very troubled young person, to try and equip as many young people as possible with tools and strategies and knowledge so they didn't end up going down the path I did. Because as a counsellor and a coach now and a speaker and a mental health first aid trainer, I actually sit with people and I hear the stories of the loss in their life and the trauma, and I help them mop that up.

And in so many cases, had they had the knowledge earlier on or the insight or knowing the warning signs, a lot of that trauma could have been avoided. And so I'm really putting myself out there these days as a spokesperson on different topics, because if I can create awareness, awareness brings hope.

And that's what I set out to do when I started Stories of Hope. I hit my own personal rock bottom back to the first question, you know, eight years ago, after losing both my parents and going through what I now call a trauma trigger tsunami of events, which hit me just one after the other, after the other, and I could barely get back up. And I desperately searched for somebody that could.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:44)

Just saying.

Kerrie Atherton (18:10)

that had been through that kind of level of trauma, that could tell me I'd be okay, and I actually couldn't find that person. So I decided if I can't find that person, I'm going to become that person for others. And that's when I started this movement, Stories of Hope.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:26)

We have similar perspectives there because I found that I just wasn't reaching the information that I needed to get back on track. The podcast, people like you on the podcast, it's becoming revolutionary because we are finding the people who have the answers, and maybe the world is not distributing the access to leadership, the access to information and guidance, or there's a gap that needs to be filled. And you are doing that in Queensland and I've seen that with people from anywhere. I am so curious. You said that for some of the young people in school, some of these traumas could have been avoided. What's going on there?

Kerrie Atherton (19:19)

It's really some of the traumas could have been avoided for people of all ages, really. But I think, and I've been doing a lot of talking to people that are really working in the space with young people now. And I interviewed a young guy from the man cave, and I spoke, actually spoke to Daniel Principe yesterday who's really leading the way in schools and picked his brain about his thoughts on different things, but I think what the big problem with young people now is social media, their definition of self, the false narratives of what success look like, the false narratives of what a boy should be like, what a girl should be like, and the fact that parents are so time poor these days.

And I think a lot of parents are struggling to keep up with the different things that their kids are being exposed to on social media. It's like a minefield. I mean, my own daughter is a very young mum. She had my granddaughter at 21. And she's struggling to keep up. And there's a lot of older parents out there. And I just think that parents not by their own fault, unless they're studying this stuff every day, they can become really clueless to what is actually going on and what their kids are being faced with. And so I think that's the biggest struggle. And there's been a lot of parents that have contacted me too and said, I found out that my son or daughter is on drugs. And when I actually...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:12)

to you tonight.

Kerrie Atherton (21:14)

Yeah, well, maybe around 15, these parents have come to me, and something had happened, and they'd just found out. And then when I actually have a chat to the child, they've been smoking weed since year seven. Year seven? Yeah, yeah. And in a lot of schools here on the coast, I've been told by those kids that are smoking weed that half the class are smoking weed in year seven.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:29)

Year seven. So about age 13, 12, something like

half the class. So for anyone

Kerrie Atherton (21:46)

In every school, okay, but yeah, but this, but but the particular kids that spoke to me are their schools' half the class in year seven, and they were government schools.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:48)

Okay, now everybody.

Okay, to translate that for those who are listening elsewhere. So you're at the Sunshine Coast? Yes. So, for those who don't know, Kerrie is above Brisbane, the main city in Queensland. So the state above Sydney is subtropical. That's what you call it, subtropical, right? It's amazing. And it looks like a constant holiday, but behind the scenes, you have schools that might be disadvantaged or simply having social problems.

Kerrie Atherton (22:07)

Yeah, Queensland,

Yeah. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:32)

And then these children, at around age 12 or 13, are ending up on drugs when they are still developing and finding themselves, finding their identities and guaranteed these same kids who are on these drugs are also seeing social media where there are all sorts of issues going on there.

Kerrie Atherton (22:54)

Yeah, that's well put, that's right. I tried around six years ago to put my parents program out there in the community, and that was called Don't Lose Your Teen in the In-Between and it was for parents of kids that were about to go into year seven.

And I had so much pushback, or it was almost like parents, even I had some primary school deputies in year six say, Oh no, our kids aren't into that stuff, you know. And I'm thinking, you just give it a couple of years and if there's no warnings put in place and no awareness, they will be. Because I would see kids at the school that I worked at, I worked at a P to 12 school.

And I would see kids that were in year six were like the absolute angels of the class, very conservative kids, beautiful families. And they'd be the last kids that you would think would end up accidentally sending a nude photo to a guy trying drugs. And then two years on, they're like totally different children. They were just lost in two years, you know. And that was kind of where my motivation for running these programs that I wrote came from.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:18)

Okay, there's

So much is going on there. Firstly, Peter 12, even over here, we have kindergarten that Queensland calls prep. So basically, you're talking about school that's basically age five or six until the end of schoo,l until age 18. So a big school and all of those ages together. And you brought up some big things. And I think you're educating me because

I knew social media was a problem, and that's a whole thing in itself. But if young girls are sending pictures of themselves to guys, that is so serious because you don't know where those photos will end up, and it shouldn't be getting sent to anyone anyway. But it sounds like there's a need for education about how to use the internet. And the slippery slope is that

The internet can be used for good to find information, to hear conversations like this, but it's like a good thing as being used for evil.

Kerrie Atherton (25:20)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. And I've heard a statistic the other day that one in 200 children now will be sextorted on the internet. So through AI, a fake video will be made of them or pictures or something like that. It will be sent to them.

And even if they maybe did send something as well, a scammer will send them a message and say, if you don't pay this money, or we're going to release these pictures out to all your network. And this is a terrifying thing for young people. I actually know some young people that this has happened to, but one in 200 young people are being targeted now and I think this plays into why the social media laws have been changed. Now look, I actually know a lot of therapists and parents that aren't happy with the social media laws. Yeah, they're being changed. I think they're worried because also there's a new statistic out now that the loneliest demographic that we have are

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:33)

Tell me, I'm curious about this, what's going on.

Kerrie Atherton (26:46)

boys in between the ages of 16 and 24. In society, they're our loneliest demographic. And 53 % of men from the ages of 35, I think, to 55 report feeling lonely as well. But we'll go back to the kids. So for an increasing number of children, their social network now is online, they're finding it more and more difficult to socially interact outside the online space. So I think for the parents of those kids, there's a real concern that if they're restricted from certain platforms, that it's really going to impact badly on their mental health. But I'm on the other side. I've seen the damage of social media far too often.

And I think that these laws are really good. And what it means is parents are going to have to become more aware, and they're going to have to knuckle down, and they're going to have to monitor what their kids are doing and how much time is being spent. And as I said before, I'm empathetic towards parents these days because finances are so tough. A lot of parents, both of them have to work in the family and there isn't a lot of that time to be able to be monitoring what your kid's doing on social media.

But parenting's never been an easy job; it's a tough job. I said this a few weeks ago, and somebody that specialises in the field said it yesterday. If we're not parenting our children, social media will be doing it for us. And that's the bottom line.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:36)

Yes.

I think so much is going on here. So I want to mention screen addictions as well. Honestly, I didn't set out with any particular agenda for this conversation, but this is where we have ended up.

Kerrie Atherton (28:53)

Really going with the flow, aren't we?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:54)

Oh, I know, I know, because the thing is, you had your addiction journey, but now I think that young people, that's the thing to focus on. I had been mainly concerned about how, how people in their thirties and forties are trying to look after themselves. But I would say, unless you are partnered and never planning to have kids and maybe there are some people listening who will never have to deal with this but if you are if you have a family or if you are dating and might end up in a relationship with someone who has a family whatever it might be this will be an issue for you and you could be looking after your career but not thinking about how the internet is affecting your kids because we all end up too busy to think about it.

And it's good that we are having this conversation, that the grownups will listen to, because I think I've been, I get exhausted having the screen addiction debate with the grownups. I really do because some adults will be saying that it's emotionally regulating. And the hard thing is, I've been saying this to a few people. When I was young enough, frankly, actually, I don't know how close you are to my age, but I grew up seeing the tail end of the cassette tape era. And okay, look, I look at the tail end of it. I'll put it this way. I was about to, I was getting ready to soon start high school when I was seeing Britney Spears' Baby One More Time videos. Okay. That's where I am. And you put on a CD. I went to Disneyland, and I still remember I went to Disneyland with my grandparents, and then we went to a nearby store, and I bought a Britney Spears album in a CD case. And that was me going wild, having gummy bears and the most innocent album from Britney. My big pressure then was that I wished I could look like her in this. I knew that she'd been in a photo shoot. She was on a cover. It was a lot less of a blurred line. We knew these people were celebrities with a hair team. mean, even young people knew, come on, there was something behind that. But now there are so many things going on because if a young person wants to listen to music, the standard is to get what an iPad or an iPhone or a similar and even

Kerrie Atherton (31:22)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:44)

I miss the days when it was normal to at least have an iPod that didn't have a screen, because then you're not dealing with all that stuff. You have the option to just listen to some tunes without dealing with all these other things. Gosh, that was a rant.

Kerrie Atherton (32:01)

You touched on a good point before, because when I put posts up about my work and everything, I get a lot of interaction on LinkedIn. When I put up a post, though, about parenting, I get very little traction. And you said before, people are caught up like, you know, working in their professions and everything. But at the end of the day, every person that is a parent, when you nail it right down, their most important thing in their life is their children. And

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:18)

⁓ interesting.

has to be.

Kerrie Atherton (32:41)

So many people that are, especially workaholics that are so caught up say that, gosh, where did my kids teenage years go? They've gone. Now they're graduating. Where did that time go? And we're talking about a lot of the issues and problems today, but something that I always want to talk about is hope and about how we can turn things around and how it's never too late and how the problem's never too big.

There's one very, very simple thing that could be a starting point to parents reconnecting with their kids, no matter how far out of control their kids have got, or keeping that connection to their kids. And as I spoke with a specialist yesterday, the truth is that kids are saying they still want their parents to be the first ones that they can go to.

So, and that thing is the five love languages. And a lot of people still haven't heard about the five love languages. But if parents know what their children's love languages are, their top two love languages, they will stay emotionally connected to their children. And when their children go through something, those parents will be the ones that those kids will go to. If they are not...

emotionally connected to their children through their child's love language, the kid will go somewhere else.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:11)

They will look for it wherever they can find it. And something else that flowed as you were talking, I'm seeing anyone who is managing a group of adults as well, or leading it could be community or corporate or something else. Give them the flexibility and the understanding to simultaneously achieve results and support their families at the same time. This is crucial because it looks, let me know if you agree.

Kerrie Atherton (34:37)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:40)

It looks like the whole balance thing looks like a perfect, neat ideal. And just, I want to be pampered at this far. We're not talking about that. We're not talking about perfect balance. We're saying that if people don't get the minimum flexibility to support both at the same time, then from the stories you are telling, things can get really colourful, and it's better to have the prevention.

Kerrie Atherton (35:06)

Absolutely, and something else that is becoming one of our biggest... what's the word to use?

Our biggest problems, I don't want to call it our biggest killers, but our biggest problems is comparison. And that comes from social media, and that's hitting every single demographic and every person. You've got the young guys in particular, you've got the narratives with toxic masculine figures out there, really dominating about what

a young guy should look like, what they should be doing, how successful they should be and what that looks like. And what that looks like is almost unattainable for the normal person than these narratives that are being pushed out. And then you've got girls continually comparing themselves on social media.

Eating disorders have gone through the roof, and especially there's such an increase with boys with eating disorders now as well. And then there's also the demographic of mums who see what all the other mums are doing and seeing them on their best day. You know, and that's the benchmark of where my life should be.

But I think what we all have to remember is what's going on on people's worst days. We're not seeing that on social media, and we're only seeing the best day. And so then that should never be the benchmark for how our life should be. And then on the flow on from that, a lot of guys in their 30s and 40s feel pressure to give their family this beautiful life that's being displayed on social media that everyone else is having.

And then the financial pressure is absolutely, it's choking, it's enormous. And I know a lot of guys find it difficult to stand up and say, Look, we can't have that life. This is the life we can have. And so they're constantly spinning that wheel, trying to make that happen and feeling like a failure if they don't, because of what they're being told on social media. So there's just a whole lot of different dynamics going on.

And I just say to anyone out there, if you're feeling unhappy or anxious or depressed or uncertainty has really got hold of you, just reach out and get some kind of talk to some kind of therapist. You know, there's nothing wrong with seeking help and by seeking help early. And I teach this as a mental health first aid trainer. By seeking help early.

There's so much hope for mental health. Now we all have it. There's a continuum of mental health, with poor mental health on one side and good on the other. And we all sit somewhere on that continuum, and we can move from poor to good mental health on any day, week or month, depending on what's going on in our lives.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:31)

So it can, you talk about a continuum, but it seems like the levels can be waves or zigzags.

Kerrie Atherton (38:41)

That's it. And I think the good news with that is if we are sitting low for a few days or something, because something's going on in our life, that also means that when those situations subside or get a bit easier, we can move back up to positive mental health. It doesn't necessarily mean I have a mental health disorder.

If somebody's been down low for about three or four weeks and they can't seem to pull themselves back up and there's behavioural signs and they're sleeping more and they're not wanting to socialise, they are warning signs that we talk about and we teach in the mental health first aid training. But it's being self-aware and realising, yeah, look, I might feel a bit down today or this week, but what's going on in my life?

And maybe there's a reason for that. And so there, can offer that, know, optimism of if we are low, it doesn't mean we can't move back up and be positive with the right self-care strategies and the right support networks in place.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:52)

For sure. And you mentioned going to some sort of therapy alongside that. I am keen to hear your opinion about also connecting with in-person community and also online supportive spaces. And this is why I wanted to differentiate, because we are having this conversation, and people will be hearing it on a device. And you would have some sort of online spaces where you share the word about your stories of hope.

And I'm so keen to get my next in-person events. And I love connecting further through online spaces, but whatever people are into community, think that there's something magical about community because it can be more ongoing than the one hour session. And you can have more people than the one who's focusing just on you. Do you think that is really crucial?

Kerrie Atherton (40:52)

Absolutely, absolutely.

What we talk about in the mental health first aid training is what other networks and support systems do you have in place, other than just going to your doctor and going to see a health professional, whether it be a counsellor, psychologist or whatever. It's so important. And when people come to me privately for counselling, I try and get them engaged in as many other things as possible because the opposite of addiction is connection.

And people were born for connection, and connection in itself is actually a life-saving factor in the life of somebody who is feeling suicidal or really depressed. So the more we can get people connected to outside organisations, whether, look, if it's somebody that's socially anxious that they feel like they can't get out to an in-person, getting online with an online group. So this is the benefit of social media, of course, is providing positive connections, but it's keeping that positive connection at the foremost, which is most important. But there's Head to Health website. There's Beyond Blue website. Yeah, Head to Health, Beyond Blue website. And they have so many different

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:14)

to health.

Kerrie Atherton (42:22)

components to their website, which can help in every single imaginable thing that you're going through. There's events like my stories of hope events, and that's why I created that community. And when I pick speakers to come along to that, I often pick speakers also that are running other community events. And they've started that purpose out of their own hard time. And then I've got people from my community events now that have joined others, and they've found just so much hope because now they have this, they had no one, and they felt all alone. And all of a sudden, now they're connected to two or three different communities with different people. And so it's ⁓ looking, what am I interested in? How can I get connected? For people that are caring, for people with mental health, it's plugging into that yourself and thinking, maybe I can go along with them if they don't feel comfortable turning up to something the first time on their own, where can I take them? My clients also, I also talk to them about going to Alcoholics Anonymous as well as seeing me for addiction recovery, because I know Alcoholics Anonymous works. So there is so many things out there, but it's about finding the right support.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:26)

Also.

Kerrie Atherton (43:43)

for what that person's going through.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:46)

It sounds like you've seen some people with a social anxiety. Did you find that some of them, did you find some individuals are feeling more comfortable with a smaller group instead of a large crowd?

Kerrie Atherton (44:00)

There's definitely people that struggle with a large crowd. I mean, I actually don't really like, I'm a bit of a funny one. I'm an ambivert. So I'm really energised by people, but I'm also very much a one-on-one. And then if I'm out at a party or something like that, I'll be talking and connecting to the max. And then I'm like, I've had enough. Don't, I'm going home now, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:13)

Okay.

Kerrie Atherton (44:29)

But I suffered from a lot of fear of humiliation and loneliness right through my schooling up until year 10, and I actually hardly had any friends, and I spent nearly every lunchtime in the library and I was publicly humiliated in my classes by teachers and students, and I was mocked and bullied because I was the really overweight kid in the school. And as a result of that, I still have some residue of not

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:48)

happened.

well.

Kerrie Atherton (44:59)

It's not a sense of feeling less than, or it's ⁓ more of a fear of looking like I feel like I'm on my own. And so I still struggle a little bit with walking into big events if I don't know anyone and I am on my own, but I do it afraid. You know, I always find someone to talk to, but I heard something a long time ago where if you want to have friends, you have to be a friend. And I realised that that meant I had to put my fear aside of being humiliated or feeling alone in a crowd. And I had to put that aside. And so what I intentionally do now is to try and connect up with people and make them feel encouraged. And since adopting that mentality. I've got so many friends and connections now that when I go for lunch or down for a coffee at my lullabah, the person with me is like, How many people do you know? But I just love people, and it's something that has really been so valuable in my life, having had so many years being so lonely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:20)

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that people can create their own groups, especially if someone is in a space that doesn't have a group like yours, or if they have a niche interest that needs its own group, absolutely. What other self-care strategies do you think everybody needs to know about?

Kerrie Atherton (46:46)

Look, they look different for everyone. A lot of exercise is very big, but the biggest contributor to self-care is sleep. That's become the no and number one fact out there in the medical field. That if people want to feel mentally well, they really need to be getting good sleep. Diet is the next one. People who are not eating well or have a poor diet have, I'm not, don't quote me on this, but I think it's around 700 % increased incidences of not thinking.

I'm just trying to remember exactly what the statistic was about. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:34)

Okay, it doesn't have to be the precise words, but I'm curious about having common sense or about having an okay mood. Something like

Kerrie Atherton (47:44)

Yeah,

just not being able to think clearly, 700 % more likely to not be able to think clearly if they have a poor diet. sleeping, diet, but then exercise I think is the really big one that everyone, it releases endorphins and we need it for our physical health.

I go down and walk at the beach because I love the beach. I catch up with friends. I play the piano. And that was something when I gave up alcohol, they used to say to us in AA, when you give up alcohol, get an interest. And I already played the piano. So that became the thing that I turned to when I was wanting some kind of emotional outlet. And keeping in balance. So they're, look, they're my main ones. And I also have faith, you know, so I, you know, spend time with God and pray and read, you know, uplifting books and stuff like that. So they're kind of my self-care strategies, but they do look different for everyone. For someone, for a guy, might be playing golf, you know, or getting out and shooting paintballs. The girls might be, you know, shopping in moderation.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:07)

Yes, it's something that will uplift you, whatever it might be. And that's the crucial part, because some people might see golf as a social thing where they need to connect with people, or it could be their outlet or music. It's interesting you brought up music because some communities have a perfectionism about music, but if you can connect with the creativity for the joy of it, and at least privately for fun, some sort of

Kerrie Atherton (49:07)

bunch of friends.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:35)

creative activity, then that's using a different part of your brain, and it's letting you just do something for the joy of it without the pressure of something being a job, because not everything has to be your job.

Kerrie Atherton (49:48)

Yeah, that's

And not everything has to be perfect. I think like that was great what you said about the joy of it. Whatever things are pure, lovely, bring you joy, happiness. And they're not breaking the law. You can't get enough of those things, can you? And I think going on holidays, giving yourself a break, giving yourself some time to be kind to yourself.

And in my really, really darkest times, you know, sometimes it was just sitting in my room and reading that book and burning a candle that smelled nice. When I feel so low, anything that appeals to your five senses can be so lifting of your mood and emotions.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:37)

Something simple.

Absolutely. So I want to wind up, I normally ask for three, three actions anyone can take, but I think we're just talking at a whole lot of actions. I want to next step to how can people reach out for help? Do you support people beyond your events in other ways? And how can people get help aside from those websites?

And reminder, was beyond blue and something else that I hadn't heard of. was so keen to get an explanation of what that other website is.

Kerrie Atherton (51:22)

That's Head to Health, the other website. Head to Health. They would just Google Head to Health, and then that is the actual website. So it'd be www.Health.com.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:26)

What is it? Yes, what do they do? Where is it from?

Okay, okay. Is it from an organisation? Is it an NFP, or it's like, it's a government website. Okay.

Kerrie Atherton (51:42)

It's just a government website, and it's just really created for the health of people, and it's got a lot about mental health and that. Yeah, but I do, I see private clients and I also see private clients for addiction and trauma counselling, and I see business people who are burnt out and broken down in life, and I have a coaching package for them especially for people that feel like they're really disconnected from themselves and finding it hard to connect with others as well through the overwhelm of life. And so that's through my website, www.mpower, E-M-P-O-W-E-R, lifesolutions.com.au. And my other website is my Stories of Hope, which is www.storiesofhope.com.au.

And one way that people can be helped, you know, is through listening to the podcast. If they can't get to one of my events, they can listen to my Stories of Hope podcast and your podcast as well. And I think podcasts are great for that because

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:57)

And this one as well. See the other episodes of this podcast, of course.

Kerrie Atherton (53:06)

Even when you could be at home and just feeling so low, feeling like I just haven't got it in me to go out and connect. But when you're sitting there listening to two people talking and connecting, it just does something in you because you feel part of that conversation, and you can hear voices talking. And so my really big thing that I would say to anyone is together is better. Don't do life alone, and don't let others do life alone.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:36)

Together is better. Kerry, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom.

Kerrie Atherton (53:42)

Thank you, Melanie. It was a real pleasure.

Keywords

branding, personal growth, authenticity, marketing, ideal client, business success, focus, purpose, trust, connection

Takeaways

Branding is about knowing who you are and who you serve. Authenticity is crucial in today's branding landscape. Transitioning from corporate to personal branding requires courage. Finding your purpose can lead to a more fulfilling business. Focus is essential for business success and profitability. Understanding your ideal client is key to effective marketing. Building trust with your audience is vital for business growth. Quality of connections matters more than quantity in business. A strong mindset can accelerate your path to success. Taking action and implementing expert advice is crucial.

Summary

In this episode of the Motivate Collective podcast, Stephen shares his journey from working with Fortune 100 companies to helping mission-driven founders build authentic brands. He emphasizes the importance of personal branding, authenticity, and understanding one's purpose in business. Stephen discusses the need for focus and clarity in marketing, the significance of knowing your ideal client, and the value of building trust with your audience. He also highlights the mindset shifts necessary for rapid growth and success in today's competitive landscape.

Titles

Unlocking the Power of Personal Branding The Journey from Corporate to Authenticity

Sound bites

"Branding is about knowing who you are." "Understanding your ideal client is key." "Taking action is crucial for growth."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Branding and Personal Identity 05:33 The Importance of Authenticity in Branding 11:41 Transitioning from Corporate to Personal Branding 18:37 Finding Purpose and Alignment in Business 25:37 The Dangers of Overcommitment and Lack of Focus 33:55 Modern Marketing Strategies and Agency Models 36:26 The Creative's Need for Focus 38:23 Transitioning from Passion to Business 39:55 Understanding Branding vs. Marketing 41:56 Crafting Your Ideal Client Persona 44:32 Building Trust Through Authenticity 51:03 The Importance of Product-Market Fit 56:15 Finding Your Niche in a Crowded Market 01:00:37 Learning from Coaches and Mentors 01:11:47 Key Actions for Building Your Business

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Stephen, welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast.

Stephen (00:06)

Thank you. It's really wonderful to be here, Melanie.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:09)

I appreciate you taking the time, and I know that a form of balance or near balance is very important. I'm curious, how do you explain to everybody what you do now and what you previously did in your work?

Stephen (00:26)

Sure, so now meaning within roughly the last 10 years, I work with mission-driven founders, often mission-driven coaches, and I guide them to building profit-driven brands that are aligned with their soul. Prior to that, spent, been in that line of work for about 35 years. So prior to that, I spent about 25 years running my own agency where we serve primarily the Fortune 100 and doing very similar things for them in terms of, you they already had established brands, but we were continuing to build on, you know, their brand with additional communications.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:16)

So, you've helped so many different types of brands. What's something that everybody needs to know about branding now?

Stephen (01:29)

I think what everybody needs to be more conscious of now is that there was a day when, like I said, I helped brand Fortune 100s. I helped brand businesses. I think now it's much more about the personal brand and branding.

You know yourself, even the big brands are out there now, with the CEOs of those big brands showing their face on podcasts and showing their face on YouTube. So I think the humanising of the big brands and no, or no matter what size your brand or business is, I think the humanising of it is critical, especially with, you know, what's happening with the revolution of AI and where AI is headed and where, you know, automation is headed. think the human element, the human touch, is going to be more important than ever. It's moving forward.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:27)

It really is. I've been thinking about this a lot because I looked at personal branding for so many years in different ways. And there was a time when the way we were expected to present ourselves, be it in corporate or some other spaces, there was a slightly generic expectation to it. And maybe perhaps the big tech bosses who were showing up in

jeans and something else, they helped to relax everybody a bit. But, but have you seen professionals evolving from having to fit into needing to stand out?

Stephen (03:08)

Yeah, you know, of the things that I've been really leaning into lately is this concept or this thought around how important it is, especially for, know, a small entrepreneur, small business owner, founder, know, solopreneur, even, you know, those of us with small teams up to 10 or 15 people, I still think it's really critical that as a brand and as a person, that you make that bold, brave decision to actually what I call fly your freak flag, you know, kind of get out there in the marketplace and, really not be afraid to kind of bury your soul or bury your truth. think what by your soul, what I really mean is your truth. It's identifying those core principles, those core values that you have, your truth and speaking that truth in the marketplace. And the interesting thing about that is that feels very risky. Like us as humans, you know, taking something like you think about the fine artists, you know, one of the hardest things as a fine artist is you pour your soul onto the canvas, and then you have to step back and let everybody judge it. It's a very similar thing here. You have to be brave enough to do that. The reason is that when you look at it through the eyes of marketing or through branding and marketing, the reason why that's actually the safest move possible is because it creates distinction in the marketplace. There is no other uniquely human Melanie on the planet or Stephen on the planet. So when I lean totally into who I am or into who you are, it can't be duplicated. AI can't duplicate it yet, but AI can't duplicate it. Right. So it's really important to be brave and be bold because it's actually the least riskiest thing to do. think most people think, Oh, this is so risky for me to get out there and really share who I am and share what I believe in and share what my brand is all about and what my mission is and what my vision is. But those are the things that actually create distinction. And when you resist that, you blend in, right? When you try and mimic what other coaches or other founders or other entrepreneurs are doing because you're like, oh, this is what I see out there. What AI is telling you is the thing to do. That's kind of a homogenised version of what's out there. It's actually the riskiest thing you can do as a marketing person because you end up being vanilla. You end up blending in, and when you blend in, like nobody's going to remember you. Nobody's going to come looking for you. Nobody's going to line up for your service or product. So I could talk about that for hours. I'll pause there for a minute.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:39)

Okay, and we could talk about that a lot. There are so many ways to interpret that, but I think that's crucial. And let's emphasise here that the podcast is about looking after yourself, but that includes professionally. And I feel very compassionate and concerned for any professionals that I have cared about or looked up to who came from the old-fashioned view of being scared of standing out or not wanting to ruffle any feathers. And the reason why I can have a lot of compassion for that is I came from a weird contradiction where everybody knew presenting a talk, you need a personal story, just like in an advertisement, anything like that, you'll have a story about a family or whatever it might be. But people also said, Keep your skeletons in the closet. Don't air your dirty laundry. And there's this sense of you are meant to sort of never complain, never explain, but still be relatable. And for goodness sake, this is why I have so much sympathy for the British, got to say. But it's impossible. Now we are, I think, this is the best decade to live in because everybody is realising that we have to be more human. And so what do you say to the old-fashioned

Stephen (06:50)

Okay.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:05)

bosses who they might not be 80 years old, they could be half that age, but the old-fashioned style, I've seen some lovely, lovely humans who are just sticking with what they know. What do you say to the ones who are sticking with what they know and need that current-day

Stephen (07:06)

Yeah.

So, yeah, so a couple of things. Well, three things. The 80s were actually a pretty awesome decade as well. might push back on now's the best time. The 80s were a good decade. So, I would say for me, one of the things that I think about in terms of relating it to also the health of the business owner.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:36)

I'm I almost had it set to decade.

Stephen (07:51)

When you operate your business from that place of alignment with your true self, alignment with your soul, alignment with your truth, when you're operating from that place, it's the healthiest place you can operate your business from because it removes an enormous layer of, pretending maybe is not quite the right word, performing, you know, so I'll share my story. I'll pull a little closet, a little skeleton out of the closet as you mentioned. I spent a lot of years performing, right? I spent a lot years in that business trying to be someone I wasn't. What's up?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:29)

What's the instance that looked like?

What does that look like? How did performing look like in your world?

Stephen (08:34)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, what it looked like was I was in a role because I thought that's the role I had to be in or should have been in, you know, so 20 some years ago as a designer, I was working, had my own you know, agency, but also was working with some other big agencies in New York and Philadelphia. That's where I was located at the time; it's where I was born and raised. And it looked like doing all the things that I was supposed to be doing on that career path, you know, to advance myself or grow the studio, which was chase the big clients, chase the big contracts, chase the big money, the big boardrooms full of decision makers. And while I met some wonderful people along the way and I had some really exciting, fantastic projects to work on, it wasn't how I was wired. I was wired for a more one-to-one intimate experience with people who were really innovating and really taking risks and had this wild crazy idea and didn't quite necessarily believe in themselves enough, and you really needed some support, someone to come alongside them and say I think your business idea is fantastic. Let's get you some focus, let's get you some packaging and let's get you out there in the marketplace and test it so that you can live a life that's true to who you are. So, like now, I was able to step into a role where I was really supporting people chase down their dream and profit from it, as opposed to helping a big tech or big soap company or big fashion company, just an insurance company, just make more money and be more greedy and rip more people off. And there's a lot of great companies out there too, but like, like they don't, I didn't need to be in that role for those companies to keep moving and keep succeeding. So, for me to think that that's where I belonged because that was going to serve me well in making me more money and serving my family more.

It just, you know, I finally had the, what I was talking about earlier, bold enough and brave enough to put my own free flag out there and pursue my dream of working with who I wanted to work with in the way in which I wanted to work with it. I was also really tired of the agency model. The agency model is, it's just, it's old. It's just, it doesn't take six months to build a brand like I build a brand for people in three days. Three days. I do it in three days, you know, the old agency model of building it in six months is just ridiculous. So, so I flipped a lot of those things on, you know, on their heads in order to build a business that was aligned with who I was and how I wanted to work. I have five children, wanted to spend time with my kids, you know, wanted to construct a business around a lifestyle that I was pursuing as well. So, you know, I think all of those things were, you know, especially when I made the decision to do this, you know, many years ago, none of those things were the norm, none of those things were accepted. But I learned a lot from that, and really anything that I'm doing for my clients is really just what I did 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, turned into frameworks, and now I'm just helping people execute on that same thing for themselves. So I think that answered your question.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:48)

Yes, it really does.

It brings up a lot. And I want to ask about the agency model in a moment, because that was a branch off that I'm curious about. But the universal thing is that you are essentially supporting large companies that could have their own purposes, their own set of values. And you decided at some point in life that the work you are doing, the value and abundance that you are creating, could be contributed towards people and purposes that align with your values and could be improving the world more.

Stephen (12:31)

Absolutely. Yeah. No, like, you know, when I introduced myself in the beginning, I say I work for mission driven founders and many of them are coaches. I went through a period of time where not only was I running that agency I was referring to, which at time was called Pixel and Pulp. I also had another agency called Blue Pond that I had a partner in. And then we had a data company called Minds and Motives where we were helping those big Fortune 100 companies segment their data, the lists that they were reaching out to according to cognitive style. And then I had a research company called the New Temperament that was gathering the data on cognitive behaviour in order to inform those algorithms that were dividing those lists. So I had like four different companies going and was completely train wrecking my life. I was trying to create financial freedom and time freedom. And instead, I had no time. I was working 70 hours a week, know, working weekends, working nights.

And I wasn't making money, I was investing money, hundreds of thousands of dollars into these companies to keep them going when it all started to fall apart and my wife said to me, you've got a choice to make, it's either all these companies or it's me and your kids, it's your family. And I was doing all this for my family. And that's when I realized, okay, I need to take a step back. I exited those companies. We actually sold our house in the suburbs of Philadelphia and moved here to Florida, St. Florida.

You know, that's when I restarted, and that's when I started doing the work for coaches. But the funny thing is, is the reason why I did the work for coaches was because it took about a team of 10 of them to help me over time, break my mindset, break my habits, break these different things and start to create a life where I trusted myself and I leaned into, you know, that fruit flag being, you know, bold enough to put my signal out into the world. So as a result of that, I realised what an incredible community these coaches are that are out there helping people do what I did. So that's one of the reasons why I really have a into helping mission-driven founders and a lot of them are coaches is because I want to give back to the community.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:48)

This is transformational, seriously. This is a big shift for everybody because I think some of the learning curves and mindset shifts, as we call them, that I've noticed in other people and myself, and we can learn from you. Firstly, there's the leap from essentially contributing to build someone else's empire to then creating something for yourself. And I'm wondering if you felt more comfortable when you were under the umbrella of large brands, sometimes, especially in agency days, or when you were building something that was a high quantity with the data. And then when you were shifting into doing something as an individual, did you have to find more courage to simply be you, the individual and create something at a different scale and have the confidence in that?

Stephen (15:51)

Yeah, you know, so it's, think like everything there's polarity there, you know, there's both sides of the coin. found when I was doing the work for the big agencies and even when I had and see that I was doing work for big clients, it's very exciting to work with those big brands and get that kind of recognition and have those kind of budgets and exciting projects. If he's your ego, at least, right? It feels good to be able to brag and tell other people what you're working on. But it's also, I also found it not very fulfilling and not very rewarding at the same time, because I did want to help the people that I felt more connected to, the individual. know, so, you know, it was definitely a mixture of both. And then when I leaned fully into, you know, running my own business, but only working with, you know, small businesses, founders, solopreneurs, it was definitely a little scary at first, because I thought, Am I going to make enough money? Am I going to be able to support myself and my family doing this?

You know, because it was contradictory to what everybody told you to do right? We told you to chase the big clients and the big contracts. You know and and there's always you know, there's always the self-doubt that comes along with it again That's what some of that coaching helped me with was like really trusting yourself really believing yourself really going all in on the thing that you want to do because You know not to get too woo-woo But if that's what you're here for if that's what the universe wants from you and you're avoiding it then it's not gonna work anyhow. It's not going to work until you step into alignment with your soul. You're just you're swimming upstream. You're not in flow. So when you get in flow, those things actually just work. So definitely takes courage. Definitely takes hard work. I mean, there's no sugar coating the fact that when you run your business, you wear a ton of hats, you put a ton of work in, but over time, you can systematise, you can grow, you can scale, you can do things, but it's a lot of hard work. But the phrase that I've attached to it was what I was doing previously was painful. What I'm doing now and did to get to this place was also painful, but the difference is it's meaningful pain.

It's pain that's worth suffering for because I'm invested in it, because it's so connected to who I am. So that's something that gives you that resilience to push through the pain because you know, it's, it's your vision. One of the things I help my clients do is the very first thing we do is we craft a vision statement, which is that huge hundred thousand-foot. That's, know, it's your why, know, why are you here? I'm here to help other people live in alignment right now using my business to do that. If I'm not using my business to do that, I'll find another way to do that because that's what I feel compelled to do. So does that help answer that question?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:49)

Purpose.

Yes, yes. You identified that purpose is a key element, and this is becoming very philosophical, and it fascinates me because you came from data and advertising, and let's just acknowledge that for a second. How many people saw Madman and assumed that advertising is old draper and we're getting philosophical and real here. So I think that's really awesome. But the purpose is something that we need to be reminded of and everybody has a different spiritual view but but what I saw in that is we're all built in different ways and you're saying that if we're going to live in alignment it could sound woo or it could be how am I built and how can I use my strengths to contribute to the world the strengths that I am gifted to have

Stephen (19:47)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. mean, it comes down to, I mean, there's multiple, you know, assessments out there that you can take the different personality testaments and the strengths tests and, you know, all of those things. And honestly, you know, if you can do a battery of those and come to me and share those results with me, we will work all of that, you know, into your brand because it's really critical. I, one of those companies I was working for that I founded and launched 15 or so years ago, was a self-assessment company, much like Myers-Briggs. developed our own assessment as a 72 question assessment and it bucketed you into one of the four main cognitive styles or temperaments and then that could be divided into four subcategories of 16 temperaments and I still use that knowledge of how people are kind of innately wired and how that affects then how they're going to roll the brand out and roll the business out and create those relationships right because any business is just about relationships between people so when you understand who you are and how you're wired can lean into that and build that into your brand. So that's a very important part of this because again, when you try and operate outside of that, you're just creating so much friction in your life that it's just going to slow you down. I tell people all the time is that alignment accelerates.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:12)

Okay, alignment accelerates. I'm curious about how your relatability has helped with the clients that you have. Did they feel like they can be more honest and real about their realities and their needs because they know you are being authentic?

Stephen (21:28)

We end up developing really close relationships. Mean, at this point, I would call myself friends, you know, with just about every client I've worked with. There are dozens of them over the past few years. Again, mostly coaches. And, you know, we get very close because that's the space I create. I create a safe space, you know, for people to become really, really open about who they really are and what they really want and who they really serve.

My business is built on three principles, which is alignment, clarity, and profit. And profit really is interpreted as focus. That's what creates profit. But the clarity part of that is built on three things, and that's knowing yourself, knowing your client, and knowing your value. So when we're doing that portion of the work, after we do the alignment portion, we do the clarity part, where we're putting the language around their alignment, we're putting language around their truth, right? So the alignment part is figuring out their truth. The clarity part is how do we now articulate all that? And I think for a lot of people, you sort of know your truth. You sort of have this like, this vague feeling about who I am doing, but when you go through that process of finding the language to articulate it at the highest level of clarity that you can find it, it becomes incredibly powerful and incredibly moving.

Obviously we wanted it to do that in the marketplace, but even to the founder, even to the person that I'm working with, it's often becomes a very deep and emotional kind of journey and experience because, you know, when they give me on the input and then I translated into things and I put it back in front of them and they read it, I get that reaction often where they sit back and go, wow.

Yeah, like that's me. You know, that sounds like me. That feels like me. You know, so it's a, a, it's a beautiful moment. It's a beautiful experience. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:34)

You said focus connects with profitability. How does that happen?

Stephen (23:38)

Yeah.

Well, I have a framework for that too. know, the, the, thinking behind that, and it's not original thinking, you know, any seven-figure, you know, coach or founder or any figure of business person out there will tell you the way to get, you know, to that type of profit and that type of revenue is to have singularity.

It's to have focus, and there's a principle out there called the five ones, and it's about having one target market, one problem that you solve on one platform, and you do it for one year. And if you can stay disciplined and you can stay focused and you can do that, you can have your first million-dollar year. And then from there, you can do those other things of serving maybe another set of ideal clients or launching other products or other things or moving into other platforms. But the biggest problem I see with every early entrepreneur is just that lack of focus. You're trying everything. You're on all the platforms. You're launching tons and tons of offers. You're, you know, you're just, you're kind of all over the place. And that's, we feel like that's the way you figure stuff out, right? It's like throwing spaghetti at the wall. Like, let's see which one sticks, but it's now, you know, it's, yeah, there's a little bit of that. But when you start to find something that sticks, you got to stick, you got to let it stick. And what happens, I think, think, I figure what the stat is like 80 % of solopreneurs or ADHD, you know, I get it. I'm extremely distracted. That's why I have four companies, you know, going at once at one point. So, you know, focus.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:15)

wasn't really going as effectively as you wanted it to. So it was counting, I wanted to do this, I wanted to do that. Next shiny thing, next bright shiny object, but then it was not actually thriving.

Stephen (25:20)

National

Not at all. Mean, it completely and almost destroyed my entire life and family. You know, it put me, you know, over half a million dollars in debt, and it almost blew apart my family, which was, you know, is, was at the time and is the most important thing to me. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. It doesn't work. I tried it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:50)

You tried

it. You're teaching people through your experience. And this is, I think this conversation is one of the best master classes in the podcast on what to do, what not to do. Oh yeah, both learn from not what to do. And we can all even look at our own past experiences and see, right, this is where I could have done things differently. But the not overloading.

Stephen (26:02)

Would not to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:19)

we need to keep that in mind. And I'm wondering if you find that you need to keep focus even beyond work. My version of that, and some people might relate to it, it's that you might want to be helping community or you might want to be, I don't know, having all these hobbies on the side or whatever. And although it's good to look after yourself, do you think that people can overwhelm and overload themselves in any form?

Stephen (26:48)

Absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, I can, I can, I can share, you know, around that as well. You know, during that period of time that I had those companies going, was also living in a 200-year-old house in the suburbs of Philadelphia up on the side of Valley Forge Mountain, which is, you know, across, the street from George Washington's, know, headquarters and some of the soldiers,' old soldiers homes and stuff. So it was this beautiful area. But we were ran into you know, entire house and building an addition, building and outloading and doing all this stuff creative, you know, so I tend to look at those projects and go, I could probably do that myself. You know, why hire a professional contractor? You know, I can rip out the floors and redo the floors and tear out a bathroom. And we did, we did all of that. We refinished everything, did electric, did plumbing, flooring, all kinds of stuff. And I'm in another old house now, almost 100 years old, St. Pete doing the same thing. I spent this weekend remodelling one of the bathrooms, but it's really easy to also over-commit to all of those things, which I was doing at that time, you know, as well. was over committed to those things. had young kids who were in sports and the arts doing things, you know, so it's constantly, know. Well, the kids, I have five children now. My oldest is 31 and my youngest is about to turn 20. She's 19. But at the time, you know, they were, they were young, you know, they were anywhere from,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:01)

with a

Hang on, how old were the kids?

Stephen (28:20)

to 15 and then over that 15 year, 10 year period of time, you're moving up to 10 years old to 20, 25 years old.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:28)

Okay, let's just map this out. are you telling me that, so this is when you had four companies.

Stephen (28:34)

Yeah, we four companies, we five children, and we were schooling them at home as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:39)

my goodness. Okay, this is actually the best story I've had on the show. And I loved the Emmy winner and the person who did acting and so on. But this is the best

Stephen (28:42)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:52)

because inhalation there. Okay, so you are telling me that you had four companies, including major big scale work with data and brands.

You had four companies, you were renovating with your two hands, a 200 year old house. And you had at the time, children ranging from newborn to 15 years old.

Stephen (29:20)

Yeah, which we were schooling from home. Now homeschooling, yeah. I mean, they were in a public charter school that, I mean, they were doing it from home and we were helping. So, you know, I have to give a huge, huge shout out to my wife, Kim, who, you know, I've been married to for 35 years and has been my life partner, you know, raised the kids. And it's also been my business partner through a huge portion of this up until about a year or so ago. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:25)

I'm schooling as well.

Stephen (29:50)

You know, I didn't do it alone, that's for sure, but it was pretty much the two of us. So yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:57)

Did that help? must say that you are so lucky because I'm not partnered and I envy the creators who have a life and business partner to support them in what they do. But you can guide the people who are going to plan out their future and find someone later or the person, the people who are with someone now who needs to realize, hang on, you need to be a team. Do you think that that teamwork has really made a difference?

Stephen (30:24)

absolutely made a difference. There's no way I would have made it through all of that if her and I weren't, you know, side by side in alignment.

35 years together, we've had our moments for sure, where it's been difficult between us. But overall, most of that has just been my fault. She's been fantastic in supporting me and all the craziness that I've pursued over the years, the different businesses and the different ventures and the houses and the kids and all of it.

Yeah, because that was actually the third house that we did that to. And this is our, this is our fifth. So, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:08)

What did you try to renovate all of them?

Stephen (31:11)

We did, we renovated all of them. that was our biggest one because we were there for 18 years and it was, you know, I think close to 6,000 square feet. yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:24)

And 200 years old, that's heritage.

Stephen (31:26)

So.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:29)

Over here, if something is

that old, it's normally protected with some sort of regulations.

Stephen (31:36)

Yeah, yeah, I mean it was a historic home. We didn't have it registered and protected that way, but it was a historic home, ⁓ you know, because of where it's located and what went on there. ⁓ But yeah, you know, and same thing with this house. This is one of oldest homes in St. Pete.

A couple of them on the block are historically protected. And we have a passion for that. We have a love for that. But absolutely having a partner to go through all of this with has been the foundation and the safety net that has allowed us to take big risks and make huge mistakes and bounce back and keep going. So, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:19)

curious through either your experience or through stories from people you talk to, I'm wondering, there ever moments where both partners have their own very independent career goals? And how do you balance that out when it's like you are steering a ship in two different directions? Or do you just support both?

Stephen (32:47)

Yeah, well, I can't speak from experience on that. Her and I have always been in alignment with the same goals and the same paths to get there. It's only until recently now that our kids are moving out of the house and moving on with their lives. And that, like I said, she just phased out of being my business partner in this business about a little over a year ago because she's launching a business of her own. You know, so she now has a very definite path that she's headed and I'm headed on a very definite path, but they're still in alignment with each other in terms of serving.

bigger goal of creating the lifestyle that we want to have. And for maybe other couples out there that have more differentiated approaches in the way in which they're doing life, I don't necessarily have a plan or advice around that because I haven't experienced that. So I don't want to speak outside of my own experience.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:44)

That's okay.

So we'll pivot to how to work. And part of why this is such a valuable conversation is because you saw great marketing and advertising at a great scale, but also, you know what people need to do now. And I can only draw upon a bit of experience there and learn from your expectations.

learning from your expertise, I think people need to know what not to do and what to do with this as well, because the agency approach that's, think everybody is becoming their own me agency these days. And I'm wondering what you think about that. A lot of people get a VA and a lot of people will maybe bring someone in to do design. And I, you can disagree with this entirely, but I had a bunch of months working for, for a marketing agency.

And the challenge I had, maybe it was the ADHD brain, but they wanted me to just do writing. And it's like a different person is doing the graphics and a different person is having the conversations with the clients. And then someone else is doing the writing and it just felt so separate, so segmented. And there was very little, whatever conversations with everybody combined, it was mainly just, okay, what are you doing? And you have 10 seconds to say, I'm getting this done today. And then that's all. And do you think there's something very

fragmented about how marketing used to be done. And I'm wondering whether there's any benefit to that now, or if people need to find a way to keep things a bit more unified, how should people handle marketing these days?

Stephen (35:25)

Well, yeah, there's like a hundred different questions kind of all hiding inside that thinking. No, no, it's good, but it's a good, I think the basis of the question is like, what do do now? What do we do now to get our signal out there?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:30)

Sorry.

Stephen (35:42)

It's, I had not been inside of an agency in a number of years. So I don't really know how all agencies are necessarily working now. The way agencies used to work was yeah, definitely fragmented. Everybody had their expertise and you did, you know what you were expert at. I think the agency model is not necessarily broken or a bad model, but there was definitely a right way to run one.

I what you're speaking about when things are too segmented.

When the team isn't unified, you know, that comes down to kind of a management problem, not necessarily the creatives on the team problem. ⁓ I also think that creatives and management work in two very, very different ways. A really good manager's day is completely filled with 20 minute increments of meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting. Here's all, here's 10 people I need to check on today. I've got 10 meetings lined up for my day in 20 minute increments. They're all back to back. I'm really efficient.

wasting any time. The creative person needs four hour blocks of deep focus, completely uninterrupted. So when a manager says to a creative, hey, do mind if I just pop in and we talk for 20 minutes at 10 o'clock? Well, you just blew that entire morning for that creative because their four hour block in the morning.

by the time they just start to kind of get into flow, they've got to start prepping for the meeting, do the meeting, then react to the meeting by the time they, you know.

cool down from whatever the meeting was about, there's no time left in that four hour block for to actually accomplish anything. So if they have two meetings scheduled that day, it actually blows their entire creative day. And then that's why the creatives would kind of instantly fall behind. So I think for the managers and the creatives to understand there's two very distinct and different ways of working and scheduling your time accordingly. I think that would really help the agency models work better. ⁓ The other part of your question you're asking about though is

you know, as business owners, I think we have a passion, right? least the business I'm working with, right? They're passion-driven businesses, you know? So the coach wakes up one day and says, I want to coach people. I survived this trauma. I survived this thing and I learned something from that and now I have this experience I want and this knowledge I want to go share with the world and monetize it and make money doing it.

And that's fantastic start. You start there. You start with your passion. You start with your product. After your product is developed, your product could be your service, whatever it is, your six month coaching package. Once that's developed, your business model now shifts from creating a service or creating product to becoming a media company, to becoming a marketing company. Like I don't think a lot of solopreneurs, entrepreneurs realize

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:18)

Yeah.

Stephen (38:44)

That's the game, that's the business you end up in, because if you've got a really incredible service and nobody knows you exist, you'll be out of business really fast. So you have to learn how to play that game, which then means figuring it out yourself, wearing all those hats. We're finding the people that can support you to do that work with you and for you. And as far as that goes, I think it's incredibly important for to find people that you can do. Like I said, the work that I do with my clients becomes very personal, very connected, because that's when the most authentic work is going to rise to the top. That's when the most powerful work is going to rise to the top, and that's when it's going to be effective. I think the scattered, fragmented, non-connected, surface-level stuff tends to be tactic-driven, and you can try tactics. You can get certain tactics to work for you, but unless you've that foundational brand work done underneath it, the tactics eventually are going to fail and actually often fail very quickly. You can get any tactic to work if you understand those foundational brand elements of getting into alignment, getting clarity and focus so you can create a profit by knowing yourself and knowing your clients and knowing your value. You get those things in line, you know, then YouTube can work, then social media can work, then your website can work, then your workshops can work, then your launches can work.

But you've got to get that foundational stuff done right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:17)

Yes. And for those who didn't come from the marketing world, the tactics are the very practical, small detail implementation. But the other end of that, this strategy is, what would you say it is? Is it the, I mean, I have, of course, thoughts about what it is, but do you think it is the, where do I want it to end up? Does it also include who do I want to serve and some people who are trying to visualize their ideal customer will picture one person and it's kind of like when someone is talking to an audience and they are imagining they are just talking to Fred from Philadelphia or whatever or you know they pick one person and imagine okay this is the life this person is living do you zoom in that closely or do you think about a whole group or are there other things in the strategy that are crucial?

Stephen (41:16)

Yeah.

Yeah. So take a half a step backwards, I think, to also address what you're talking about. There's a big difference between branding and marketing, right? Like branding is knowing who you are. Marketing is telling everybody who you are. So, yeah, so that's the simplest way to look at it. So first thing you got to figure out is like, who you are, you know, which means, you know, as a brand, as a business, as a person, all of those things, knowing yourself, knowing your client, knowing your values. So what I really mean by that is knowing yourself is what we were talking. We've talked a lot about that already.

It's your values, it's your character, it's your cognitive styles, it's all of those things that become that unique position in the marketplace because there is no other Melanie, there is no other Steven. So when we figure out what all those things are, and a lot of people have not taken the time to really learn those things about themselves, to really peel away the layers and get inside and figure those things out. So when you do that, you know yourself, right? And then we can craft the language around describing that and weaving that into.

knowing your client is exactly what you're saying. It's your ideal client persona or your avatar. There's a lot of people out there who use lot of words for it. But what I look at it as is, it's one person. We actually name the person. When we go through the exercises, and we do what we do with our clients.

We don't just do it based on demographics. We want to understand that ideal client the same way we do the work on understanding ourselves. What are their character traits? are their values? What are their principles? You know, not just their demographics, not just where do they live and how much money do they make brands that they like, but we've got to get inside, you know, their cognitive style, their personality, their temperament, know, understanding all of those things about them. So yes, it becomes a big worksheet, you know, with a bulleted list of all of those types of things. But then we actually craft a story around a day in the life of, and we name them. So, like my ideal client is Karina, I randomly named her Karina. But now that I understand who Karina is, I have a whole story that has captured who Karina is. So now, when I wake up and I'm about to send out an email or post something on social media or create a variation of my service or my product or add value to what I'm doing, the question becomes, will this serve Karina? Is this something that's in alignment with Karina and her values and what will really help her? So understanding her her pain and understanding her challenges, understanding her frustrations, right? As like point A and then understanding her desires, her goals, her dreams, and what she wants her life to look like. And then knowing to get her from point A to point B is me. Like I'm that bridge, I'm that person of transformation that's going to come alongside her. Like my ideal client, coach, you who's got this great idea and is bumping into all these marketing problems and whatever. And they come to me and they say, I'm in pain, you know, because my marketing is not working. And I tell them, you don't have a marketing problem, a brand problem. You don't know yourself, you don't know your client, you don't know your value. So when I help them, it moves them from that point A to point B. So that's part of what I hope my clients understand is knowing who their ideal client is, being able to understand even better than they understand themselves so that when you're out there in your marketing, in your using that messaging and that language, people see it and feel seen and heard and recognised and connected with. You have to build trust, right? That's what marketing is really all about is building trust. And then the knowing your value part is what I was talking about. It's understanding what it is that you do that gets them from point A to point B. So for me, it's that framework that I've been sharing here during our conversation. know, so like for some of my other clients, they've come to me and they say, " I don't know, you know, what my framework is or how I create transformation. So that's part of the work that we do together is we uncover that because I tell them you have a way of doing it. You just haven't taken the time. And once again, you just haven't taken the time to look at it, to break it down, to document it, to put language around it and to name it. You know, so that's what I help them do. We break it down into a three-step process or a five-step process or three key principles or something so that then that can be communicated out there in the marketplace because people need to know you like you trust you, but once you've built that trust, they also need to know what they're buying.

You know, so there's the, you know, we're all making emotional decisions when we make purchase decisions. So you have to create that emotional connection through all that messaging. But at some point, you also have to kind of give them the rationale that backs up the decision they already made emotionally. And that's when, you know, I help my clients create that core offer and create that framework because confused shopper doesn't buy. So the more clear we can get in understanding what it is I'm about to purchase, you know, the more like is somebody's going to commit more quickly to you. I think I went off on a tangent on that one. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:22)

No, this is, this is brilliant because first of all, we all can look after ourselves by selling something to someone. We're living in an economy where that's where it's all heading, but also we need to be able to look after the people we are serving. And you talked about visualising someone's day. I don't want to steal Karina's name. So we'll, we'll pick a different name, but I think

The specifics and the reality of that, I think you are showing people how we can see the real, authentic situation for the people we are helping. It's beyond the surface level because the surface level means, let's think about the textbooks for a second. How many people, so many people do a business degree, okay. And it's so different to what you do. There's a difference between what you did in your work and just getting through a business degree. The textbooks.

Stephen (47:03)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:22)

said that the demographic of 30-something females who are in a single-income something, and it's all very demographic-based based but the reality that I saw locally is for example, that people are feeling massively time-poor, and they might be overwhelmed with the reality of an actual local small business owner is that they are looking after their family

Stephen (47:40)

Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:51)

And that is taking out time at particular times of the week. They can't even think about anything part of the week. They are trying to work for other people and for themselves. And so the reality, think that marketing is feeling a lot like talking to an audience in a way, because what I tried to often tell people about talking to an audience is, it's not just what can they learn from you.

Are they at the end of their day and physically exhausted, and have they been sitting for five hours, and they just want to move around, and then they have to hear from you? How are they doing physically and emotionally? And do you get in people's head that sort of way when you are trying to figure out an audience of do they just want a convenient fix for something because they're exhausted? Does that come into how you're trying to connect with your students?

Stephen (48:39)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think when you're developing the ideal client persona, you have to humanise it, right? That's been kind of the essence of what we've been talking about here, you is that you have to see that person as a living, breathing, human with feelings and emotions and all of that. You know, crafting your offer, you know, how you provide your value, then is again in alignment with that person and the pain that they're in. So, exactly what you're talking about. So if you look at my offer as an example of what I offer to my ideal client, Karina, who is overwhelmed, frustrated, exhausted, all of those things that you talked about, because she's got this business, it's going pretty well, but she's wearing too many hats. She's trying too many marketing tactics. doing all these things that aren't working. And she knows that she has something bigger inside her, deeper inside her that she wants to get out into the marketplace, but she doesn't know how to get it out there. And she needs help. And when she looks around to get help, she gets all inundated with all this stuff on social media with all these tactics to try, try Facebook lives, try this, try this, try that. And she's trying all these things and ⁓ completely overwhelmed. And then I put my offer in front of her, which says, stop it all, settle it all down. We're gonna recalibrate. We're gonna get focused. We're gonna do our five ones. We're gonna figure out our one target market, our one problem, our one offer.

And we're just, we're going to take a breath and we're going to simplify. And it's not going to take us six months to do it. We're going to do it in three days. Like that's a huge breath of fresh air because I understand my ideal client really, really well, experiencing they don't want a six-month commitment they don't want tons and tons of homework, it's a done-for-you service right like I could you know and I have this but you know you could go out there and say hey here's my course you can DIY this whole thing well to someone who's already overwhelmed, they don't want to DIY all of it. They just want to say, here's my mess, help me clean it up and give it back to me all packaged and beautiful. I'm ready to put out into the market and start, you know, signing up clients and making money. So that's why I created and crafted my offer the way I crafted it was because I understood my ideal clients so well. I mean, that's probably the most important thing is it's product market fit, right? Like they're my market. That one person is my market.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:57)

They don't have time.

Stephen (51:27)

and I have to create an offer, a product, a value, service that fits exactly who she is and exactly what she needs. When I get that right, is when you actually have clients.

So yeah, it's not about talking to the masses. It's about talking to one person. You could be talking to the masses. You could be talking to one person on social media, and you've got 5,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 people following you, but you're still talking to one person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:59)

That is crucial. And you are speaking to the social media generations here, because even, even I had people asking, and anyone will ask how many people are following you, and well, that's really not the point. And everybody can learn from this conversation. It's not entirely about how many people are following you. It's about who specifically can you help?

Stephen (52:27)

Absolutely. I have someone that I know that had an enormous following, like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people following her. And she made a product and didn't sell it to anyone in her following. It was, yeah, I want to give specifics because I don't want to give who this person is away, but just in theory, it was just amazing to see that you can have an enormous amount of followers, but still not have an actual market to sell your product to. And on the flip side of that, I've seen people with very, very few followers and a very small audience have a very healthy, sustainable business because the people that

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:44)

Wow, what was it? What sort of product?

No. The consumer is saying... Thank you.

but not so.

Stephen (53:14)

they are connected to are their ideal client. They are the people that really need the help.

So I think you're going to see this more and more as we move forward. know, it's not follower count is not the metric, you know, to base your effectiveness of your marketing, your business on, you know, it's about what are the percentage of people out of who are following that are actually truly connected to you that are raging fans, raving fans. And, know, when you put an offer out there, they buy, you know, so you can, you can have a very healthy business with a thousand people in your audience. You don't need that thousands and thousands or millions of people. Now if you're a $10 product over and over and over and over again, if you're selling Coca-Cola, yeah, so you've got to have millions of people because you're, you know, you're making pennies on the dollar, you know, type of thing. You need a bigger audience and bigger things. But if you're selling, and this is one of the things I'll, my clients do is one of the first offers we put out there is a high ticket offer. It's something that's on the higher end, so that you don't need as many clients, but you can create really substantial income from a small audience and a small amount of people, it's delivering extremely high value at a high ticket. And that gives you the runway, you know, to then eventually when it comes time to scale, have a lower cost product that you can get out in front of more people. But even at that, doesn't, it doesn't take a lot of people.

really does.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:39)

It doesn't take a lot of people, and you gave such a great example with Coca-Cola because no product of any sort is for everybody. I don't think I can think of any product that's for everybody. I haven't drank Coca-Cola in years. I'm not judging people who do. I'm not Coca-Cola's customer. Folks, I'm the health nut. Whereas, of course, there are some people who vow to never drink a green smoothie, fine to each their own. And even with water, some people want the Mount Franklin because it's convenient. Some people want the filtered water and they want a bottle that has the filter in it. Even the way we drink water, we're all living our lives differently, and there's a different offer for everybody. So it's absolutely about knowing who you are for, and a very zoomed-in example, I'll be vague to be kind, but it was actually about a year ago that someone very local realised I have a bunch of people following me on social media. It's not heaps, but that person asked if I got you to share my brand online, what would happen? And I said, well, a lot of people following me are in other places and not over here. And this is a very local brand. So that doesn't even align. They are somewhere else. They could love the look of it, but it's not in their right space. So I'm guessing you would also be looking at, where are those people? And when you zoom in, are you saying that people can just serve a few people initially? beyond coaching, what does that look like? Do you think that there could be very localised businesses who start off with either something ultra-local or even online, just finding the people who share their values wherever they are.

Stephen (56:39)

Yep, just finding these people that share values. know, my clients are international. They're all over the world.

10 to 20 clients a year. Most of the coaches, the packages that we build for them, they don't need more than 10 to 20 clients a year to have a very substantial, sustainable business, multiple six-figure when I tell them, be afraid to get really, really specific about who your ideal client is because there's ... I don't know what we're seven billion people on the planet so I think out of seven billion people we could find 20 of them that are going to be your client you know so don't be afraid right to get really really specific about who you are and who you want to serve because they're out there. They are absolutely out there. If we had to find 20 of them a year, over 10 years, that's 200 people. If we can't find you 200 clients over a 10-year span of time, we're definitely doing something wrong.

It's, it's, it's when you do the math, I think, is when like the light bulb goes off and you're like, Oh, right. Okay. So yeah. You know, if my package is worth 10,000 or my package is worth 35,000, and I have 10 clients at $35,000 package, then I'm making $350,000 a year. How hard is it to find those 10 clients? Not very hard at all. Not if your brand's right and your messaging is right and you know who they are and you know the pain they're in and you know the value you're delivering things right, you can find those 10 people. And you don't have to do it necessarily by, you know, being on social media three times a day, seven days a week. You know, there are other ways to, you know, get clients. I mean, with that small of an amount of people you want to win.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:30)

Rides.

Stephen (58:37)

You can do it through networking, just with people you know. You can do it through speaking. I speaking is one of those undervalued ways to get in front of your ideal client and sign people up for what it is you're doing. Yeah, it's one of those things people are afraid of. People are afraid to niche, to really niche down into that really like, you know, microscope level of focus on who you want to serve and how you want to serve them. But again, that's part of what I hope people do, is realise now that's, that's like being bold about who you are. You also have to be bold about who you want to serve because we've all heard, you know, your brand is a magnet, you know, your message is a magnet. And yes, you want it to attract that exact client that you are perfectly suited to serve. as a magnet has two sides, you're also going to repel a lot of people just like Coca-Cola repels you you know you're gonna repel a lot of people and that's you don't want to be working with those people anyhow I've had bad clients you don't want them you don't want to repeat I had a, I had one of my absolute favorite coaches, Tom Bilyeu tell me that. And he basically told.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:54)

Hang on, you heard from Tom Bilyeau?

Stephen (59:57)

Yeah, yeah. So Tom, Tom told me directly when I shared what I was doing, I just want to help everybody, whatever. And he said to me, No, you don't. He said, No, don't. That is, he said, you are absolutely going to kill your business if you just try and help everyone. He said, you need, and I've a lot of this from him, you need to be very specific about who you want to serve and how you want to serve them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:00)

Wow.

Stephen (1:00:23)

Make sure that there's product market fit there for a sustainable, profitable business. Because you will just bleed all over yourself trying to help everybody, you know?

There are people out there that I want to help that necessarily maybe can't afford me, or for whatever reason, we can't work together, and I have to be okay with just saying, yeah, that's okay, I can help everybody. Now I am developing a second product because I'm further along in my business that will help other people more at scale. I'm about to launch that next month. But that's different than the one-to-one high ticket type work that I'm doing now.

The thing that I learned from being coached by people like that was that I was wasting an enormous amount of money because I love to learn, I love principles, I love concepts, but I was really bad at implementing doing the action and doing exactly what they told me. As a creative person, I was always like, that was really cool what they told me. Plus, here's my spin on that. Here's my cool way of redoing what they just told me to do my way, that's more comfortable, that I feel like doing, instead of the hard way of just doing what they told me to do. So I would say the biggest lesson when you're getting coaching from someone who has

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:28)

Yes.

Stephen (1:01:44)

You know, immense knowledge and experience way beyond what you have is just shut up, listen and do exactly what they told you to do. So that would be the first that I learned. I actually am still learning for sure. Still learning that lesson is just, just do what they told you to do. And then I think the other part of your question was on the flip side: how can I help?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:56)

Yeah.

Stephen (1:02:13)

own clients. And yeah, I think it's that same. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:17)

Or I think

When you are connected and introduced to people like those coaches, then how can you? Is there anything reciprocal in saying you've helped me so much, I should spread the word about what you do, or is there anything reciprocal in saying what can I do for you? Or do you just shut up and listen and then get back to what you're doing?

Stephen (1:02:41)

Yeah, I think, I think for the most part is just shut up and listen. They already have people at that level, right? People like Tom, they already have systems in place to make sure that they're going to continue to succeed in life. So they don't need me to do them any particular favour. Now, you know, out of the goodness out of my heart, I will, I will speak wonderful things of Tom because he is amazing. ⁓ I'm in one of his communities, you know, an online community, and I try to get back to that community all as much as I can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:58)

You

Stephen (1:03:11)

So there's definitely that part of it. Now, if you're trying to broker a deal with someone like that, as opposed to just hiring them, then that's a different approach. And that's when, yes, you absolutely have to have something of value to be able to offer them so that it's reciprocal. And that's usually, that's a tough one, depending on who you are, if you're playing at Tom's level, which I'm not, if you're playing at Tom's level, you probably have something you could reciprocate and offer. You know, at my level, I don't think there's anything that I could offer Tom that he doesn't already have or know. I'm just on the receiving end of that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:53)

So do you think it's a longer journey to reach their level? It's not going to happen overnight.

Stephen (1:04:00)

Now, I used to, and that was one of my limiting beliefs. One of my limiting beliefs was it takes time. And I think, and I'm still working on this one, you know, because I've been at this 35 years and I have not reached a lot of the goals that I have had set for myself for quite a long time. So I think the thing that has gotten in the way and is probably still getting in the way is one of my limitations. It takes really hard work, and it takes a really long time. And I think that goes back to my roots of being raised, I was raised by a blue-collar dad who worked really hard, and everything in my life just kind of took a really long time to emerge. Where it was just that notion of, yeah, maybe someday see if that ever happens. And it was, it's a limiting belief I have. And, um, you know, things do not have to take a long time. And again, one of the things that Tom is doing right now with the community he's leading and with the coaching that I've been receiving, um, is the principle of how to leverage AI to speed that process up. So I think there are tactics, there are tools like AI, there are communities, there are coaches, there are people that will help you speed things up. But I also think that it's also a mindset. You can have all the tools you want, but if your mindset's not in the right place to believe that it can happen quickly and you can scale quickly and you can jump levels in your life and become someone unrecognisable to who you are right now quickly, I think you just have to believe it. Let's eat this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:05:35)

You can believe in the leap and the focus, the thing that stood out to me, you said that people gave you ideas and directions, and you had the yes, and that stood out to me because I had that happening. I, out of respect, I don't want to write in on this recording, say which amazing coach just DM'd me weeks ago. Events are good.

And then days later, I was thinking, yes, and I could do something online. I could do that. And, and you're telling me, just shut up and do what they say and stop adding extra things on. You're teaching everybody to focus because you know, so many of us creatives are self-diagnosed ADHD. So I think the message here is to focus on who your customer is, focus on who you are and focus on the one specific thing that an expert tells you to do.

Stephen (1:06:33)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. If you've got an expert, you know, guiding you, just listen to what they're doing. If you're out there hacking away and figuring out on your own.

That's okay to maybe go get some expert help, but if you don't, then I think the thing to keep reminding yourself is, yeah, keep it simple, stay focused, you know, and it's consistency, you know, like anything, consistency, builds over time, you know, but it does not have to take as long as you want. There's a, Alex Hormozi just shared what he calls the third marshmallow principle. If you've heard about that marshmallow experiment where the one kid eat the marshmallow and the other kid, you know, that they tested it, you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:07:07)

Yes.

Stephen (1:07:12)

They did, they ate it right away, and kids that were able to delay gratification went on to have more successful lives because they delayed gratification. He proposes that there's a third version of that, which is the person that indefinitely delays gratification. So I fall into that third category where I'm willing to work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:07:27)

my god.

Stephen (1:07:32)

hard for a really long period of time, for way too long, until I see the payoff. And what he was basically saying is, hey, at some point, like make it pay off, you know, make it happen faster. You know, definitely.

For business, know, in order to stay in business, you've got to get to that profit point, and that's why that's the third principle, alignment and clarity. Profit, you know, it's a business, it's not a hobby. So let's get to the point where it's profitable and let's get it there as fast as possible.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:08:04)

the business be a business and we'll do one more reference because we keep referencing people but I saw a video from Hormozi you mentioned him and and by the way I want to shout out that the people who I think are really awesome Rene Warren, Dan Martell everybody has to follow them but the thing from Hormozi that really shifted my mindset I don't know when it was originally published but he said that a maid visited and had tried to create a business that's in the same field that Hormozi knows. And that mage tried to be totally independent, just do it all himself. And then it closed up, and he said, Why didn't you ask for help? And the mage said, if I was going to fail, I wanted to do it on my own. And so, no, you can do things fast, but with help, right? And don't, I think what I learned from that is don't reach that point where you are closing up and crumbling. So you're saying, take the action, do the things and even with your burnout, to circle back to your origin story, you were scattered and you reached a breaking point of having to choose between work and family. In all of this, in all of these decisions, don't have some prevention instead of cure.

Stephen (1:09:23)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think you're spot on with that. You know, get the help. Reach out, communicate, connect. You know, I think now more than ever.

It's so important for us as humans to stay connected with each other, to support each other. You know, you're, you, you, you become the five people you surround yourself with. That's an old principle that's been around coaching forever. And, and it's very true, you know, so, you know, select wisely, but select, you know, I think it's, it's creators too. think sometimes we tend to be introverted. Some of us tend to be introverted, and you tend to just, you know, pull back and pull back. Then the worst things get the more embarrassed you are to share your story, to share your pain, to ask for the help. And I think that's one of the things that absolutely was crushing me and almost killed me and my family at some point was I didn't get the help. And then when I did get the help, I didn't really listen. So two layers to that one. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:22)

So we should wind up because some of us creatives can talk all day, but what are three key actions, three calls to action that you can have for anyone who's listening, who is ready or needs to become ready to build up themselves and to the people they can serve.

Stephen (1:10:24)

Yeah.

So yeah, three call to actions. Again, we just come back to the principles that I've been sharing. know, take the time to know yourself, know your client, know your value. You know, get into alignment, get clear and get focused. You know, and then if anybody needs help with any of that, yeah, then the direct call to action would be, you know, look me up and let's have a chat about where you're at and what you want to build and how I can help you get there. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:11:10)

Awesome. And people can look at the show notes. We'll add some links to how people can reach out for help. Stephen, thank you so much for being on the show.

Stephen (1:11:14)

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. It was a delightful conversation. And I'll see you. I'll see you next time. All right.

More about this conversation and The Motivate Collective: https://www.motivatecollective.com

Keywords

time management, energy management, financial wellness, meal prep, life balance, personal development

Summary

In this conversation, Dr Darla Bishop explores the interplay between time, money, and energy, emphasising how individuals can leverage these three currencies to enhance their quality of life. She discusses practical strategies, such as meal prepping, to optimise these resources and create a fulfilling lifestyle.

Takeaways

If you're low on one of them, can you use money to increase your energy? Can you use time to increase your money? Can you use your energy to increase your time? Meal prep is a great example where you've gotta put a lot of energy into it once or twice a week. Throughout the week, you'll have something nutritious and on budget to eat. How can you play with all three of those currencies? Building joy and pleasure in life is essential. Finding balance between time, money, and energy is crucial. Strategic planning can lead to better resource management. Investing in one currency can enhance the others.

Titles

Mastering Life's Currencies: Time, Money, and Energy The Art of Balancing Time, Money, and Energy

Sound bites

"Meal prep is a great example." "Nutritious and on budget to eat." "Build that joy and that pleasure."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dr. Darla Bishop 00:32 Strategies for Financial Reset and Growth

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Dr Adala Bishop, welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast. How are you doing today?

Dr Darla Bishop (00:06)

I'm excellent. Thank you so much for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:10)

Any time. For those who don't know who you are and what you do, would you like to introduce yourself?

Dr Darla Bishop (00:16)

Yes, hi, I'm Dr Darla Bishop. I currently reside in the US in a state of Michigan, beautiful Lansing, Michigan. We've gotten our first snow for the season. And so I'm looking out and seeing that. And I am, among many things, a military spouse. I am a public health scientist. And what I really love spending my time on is financial education. Growing up, we went through a lot of things in my family that I recognise could have just been easier or different if we had a different financial situation. So when I got to college on a prayer and a scholarship, one of the things I did was study money. I wanted to understand money better. And I don't mean like I took a bunch of classes. I mean, I literally went to the library and took out books about financial literacy and how to use credit cards because I knew that if I could figure that piece out, plus my education, plus my new friends at the university, that I would be okay. And so that's what I spend a lot of my time doing now, is educating people about how to use the money that comes into their life to make their life feel really good most of the time.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:34)

most of the time. That's amazing. So there's doctor in your name as well. How, what sort are you?

Dr Darla Bishop (01:45)

Yes, so I'm a book doctor. So I am a specialist in Medicaid, which is a government insurance program here in the US. And so I can tell you why or why not your insurance covered your knee surgery, right? But I can't do the knee surgery.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:02)

Okay, that's

a great way to explain it. And so you really do understand health finance, and that is really crucial. I will later share how, I'll say it now, anecdotally, years ago, 2017, I got a tibial plateau fracture, and I realised that the money that you put into fixing yourself can influence how quickly you get fixed and how people care for you. Have you seen issues like that in America, where different types of money can get a different service when someone gets sick or injured?

Dr Darla Bishop (02:41)

Absolutely, depending on whether or not you have insurance in the first place. Even where you live has an impact because if you have fantastic insurance, but you live in an area where there just aren't great facilities, and you need to travel a long way, that makes a difference. And then also, how much money you have in your life before an injury or an illness can impact how you heal from that, right? We know that people who live in areas who have high credit rating, meaning that everyone's able to pay their bills even if they have debt, they're managing it well versus people who live in areas with low credit ratings are more likely to die 10 years younger. So that means that all the things that come with having money difficulties, it all adds up, right? So that means you probably live in an area that maybe isn't as safe or clean or maybe has more environmental toxins like pollution or not safe water, right?

And then on top of that, you might not have free and easy opportunities to be physically active, right? You don't have a lot of green space and parks to play in. It may also mean that you're relying on public transportation to get to the areas of the city or the state to work, which means you may not be able to work in as lucrative as an environment that if you lived in different part of the area, that also means that your schools might be overcrowded, underfunded, or a little bit of both.

So even if you are smart, you are able to reach your full potential so that you could go to university and potentially change your fortune when it comes to money. So all of those things add up. And so over the course of your life, they add up to taking away 10 years of your life because you haven't had all of those various opportunities to be healthy, to get healthy, to be surrounded in being in healthy environment.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:30)

This is going to be... pardon me, sorry.

This is going to be such a jam-packed chat because we can unpack so much of this, and we'll explore other things as well. Firstly, the idea that where you live can influence your quality of life. We need to look at that from so many angles because the reality is that it will cost a different amount of money to live in a different area, to some extent.

I had a moment of living in a tiny, tiny apartment in a great street in a different state. But when you need more space or more facilities, then it's going to cost more to be in some areas. And have you seen that some people need to overcome the belief of whether they even need more money, and they need to be convinced? Okay.

I need to go somewhere else to have what I need.

Dr Darla Bishop (05:36)

Well, the convincing isn't usually hard. People often understand that if they had more money or if they knew different ways to manage the money they do have, that things could be smoother or easier or they'd have something that was different and likely labelled as better. So it's not so much that people have to be convinced that they need more money, but it's about overcoming that heaviness of, what if I don't know how to get it or what if once I do get more money, I get a better job, I'm able to move to a different part of the city or state, what will that change in my life that I actually don't want to change, right? Like, there's this phenomenon against the kind of the first person in the family to have some sort of success, right? The first person in the family to go away to college, to get a big job, to live in a certain area, right, are all of these things that they didn't put on, but sometimes the people around them add some distance. Like, well, since you've got that fancy job or that fancy degree, and there's a lot of fear and real consequences to being the first to have some success in that way and not wanting to lose the family connection or the community connection, because needing to physically or geographically move means you get access to a different set of resources that would change your life for the better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:07)

Have you seen some people needing to just accept that their families won't understand what they are becoming? Or have you seen some situations where everybody can journey towards understanding and growing together eventually, at least from certain areas?

Dr Darla Bishop (07:21)

Yeah,

I've seen both. I've seen it where, as the person who's kind of blazing the trail, you do have to do the work, and it is work of understanding that what you are doing is for the good of not only you, but for the people in your life, right? And having to kind of reinforce that with yourself. And sometimes that's through journaling, sometimes it's through self-talk, sometimes it's through therapy, and then there's also, you have to get to an understanding that not everyone can come with you at the timeline that you want, right? Like maybe they need to see that you have had the success and that that success and whatever price they have perceived you've paid for that success has paid off and has been worth it before they can say, ⁓ do you mind showing me now? I'm ready. I didn't know if it was possible, but now that I see that you're doing it, I know it's possible, so can you help me? And so even in my own life, I have family members who, when I told them, Hey, I'm making my budget or would you like to learn more about this? They'd be like, you don't know anything. I'm like, okay. And working to be totally neutral about their response. And now a decade later, they're like, hey, I saw you on TV. I saw you wrote a book. Can I get a copy of that book? Absolutely. I'm so happy to share it with you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:46)

They understood once he reached a particular level. Did you? I'm curious about the TV appearance; we'll get to that for sure. Did you have a phase of being in the building stage where you were still setting everything up, you knew where the destination is, but you were trying to gradually sacrifice a lot to get there and...

Perhaps that could have been more difficult for people to understand because they couldn't see the destination yet.

Dr. Darla Bishop (09:21)

And I'm so glad you said the word sacrifice, because I want to talk about that. I think one of the things that happens when we talk about financial wellness is that often there's a lot of value placed on the temporary sacrifice. And if I'm honest, I think I really approached my own money journey because I had been without for so long as a child and as a teenager and as a young adult.

that I wasn't going to deprive myself on purpose. I wasn't going to eat only rice and beans or only oodles of noodles because it turns out that I'd grown up in situations where that was the only choice. And so now as an adult that is working, that has the ability to expand and contract my income, expand and contract my spending, I am not going to impose artificial suffering on myself. And so I actually feel like I didn't sacrifice anything. I made a lot of specific choices, and I knew why I was making those choices, and I was so thankful to have those choices to make because I saw the women who came before me, my foremothers, my mom, my aunt, that they were so skilful at managing their money that they just didn't have enough of it, right? And so they were oftentimes given a menu of choices where they really had to choose the least bad choice, right, the least bad choice. They didn't have a lot of good choices on the menu. So as someone who was in the place where I was in a university setting, there were lots of job opportunities, lots of ways to find the resources I needed, even if they were money or not, that I was happy to make those choices and to have the choices available for me. And so I really did build in small joys the whole time, right? Like, where I realised I was in the grocery store.

And there's one particular apple that I like. Now I'm from Michigan. We grow like 15 varieties of apples in this state. And there's one that is my favourite. And that week that I was grocery shopping, my favourite style was not on sale. So I was going to get the other one that was on sale. And I remember like stopping myself in the grocery store and being like Darla, like actually talking to myself, get the apple you like, get the apple

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:38)

It's an apple.

Dr. Darla Bishop (11:41)

It's like 10 cents more, you're not buying 10 pounds of them. Like you're going to get three or five apples to put into your lunch. And when you open your lunch, because I'm packing my lunch, because I've made the choice that I don't want to spend money on lunch, you're going to be happy to bite into the apple that you love the way it tastes. Why yourself of that little tiny piece of joy for what? A dollar to save a dollar. And so like having to kind of talk myself through moments like that all the time.

Because I also recognised along the way that, because I was dealing with my past, my present, and my future of my money at the same time, if I didn't build joy into the present, all those things I was doing to have a bright future might be for naught. Because if my body did not trust that working the long hours and only eating food that I cooked or prepared, and saying no to friends or saying not this week but next week, because I'll have extra cash, right? If my body didn't trust that all those choices we were making were gonna get us to that beautiful future that we had planned, it would give out on me. I would never make it, right? And so I had to be very intentional about building the joy and the good into my life now, and frankly, to practice the good.

Right? To practice having a little money saved that it's okay. You don't have to send the money away. It's not going anywhere. It can stay there. Can, it's good. So if something comes up as an emergency or unexpected, it's there, but you don't have to push it away. Right? Like having to practice the goodness of life because I had had a lot of practice with it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:32)

You hadn't had practice letting money sit there, but also you are letting yourself enjoy the small treats. But this is really important. I'm wondering if you agree that everybody will have a different definition of a treat, and we need to draw the line somewhere. So my version of that is I love to buy occasionally good quality clothes, secondhand, saving a lot of money, but it's good quality.

And it's a treat. But then, for someone else, you know, one of the big debates will be the takeaway coffee.

Dr Darla Bishop (14:09)

Yeah, and so one of the things that I think about is I think about the three currencies because I think in financial talk, right, the financial experts, the people you see on social media talking about how to become a millionaire and budget your money, I think they focus a lot on money as the currency. But we actually have three that we're working with. We have time. Time is absolutely a currency. We trade our time for all types of things, right?

Energy. We trade our energy for all types of

and money. And the cool thing about those three currencies is that they interact and ebb and flow. And so that when you have a low amount of one, you might have a higher tank of the other one or two that can help you bridge that gap. One of the examples I'd love to give is when I was early in my career and I was working in an office with women who had already been professionals for 10 or 15 years.

So they had these beautiful wardrobes just because they literally had been working for 10 or 15 years longer. So they had time to build up a wardrobe. And here I am, a recent graduate, mostly with the free t-shirts and sweatshirts that came, you know, from being a college student and wanting to look nice because I thought I was also doing a great job, but I wanted to look the part. And I didn't have a ton of money at that time, but you know what I did have? I had time and energy because I wasn't parenting. I wasn't married. So my weekends were pretty much whatever I wanted to do.

So when I, to make up for my lack of money, I did something similar. I used my time to go search the thrift stores and the secondhand stores. Then I used my energy to make repairs and clean the stains and like get it really nice and clean and iron it so that it's so smooth so that it looks like a very beautiful piece of clothing. Even though I didn't spend a lot of money on it, but I had to spend some time and some energy. And so, in thinking about how to build that joy, that pleasure, that treat in, if you're low on one of them, can you use money to increase your energy? Can you use time to increase your money? Can you use your energy to increase your time, right? Like, can you do something that will set you up for the week, like meal prep? Meal prep is a great example where you've gotta put a lot of energy into it once or twice a week, but then throughout the week, you'll have something nutritious and on budget to eat, right? So how can you play with all three of those currencies to build that joy and that pleasure and the things that make you happy in?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:45)

Yes, definitely. I'm wondering, when people are starting out and trying to rebuild themselves, do you recommend the strict rule of zero takeout? Or would you go with a 10 % to 90 % rule for some people? Does it depend on the individual?

Dr Darla Bishop (17:05)

It does depend on the individual a bit, but one of the very first step I actually have people do when they say, I need to reset. I need to, I'm starting out, I'm starting over. As I say, okay, well, what's really important to you in your life right now? Okay, thank you for telling me that. And then let's look at how your money flowed in and out of your life for the last three, you know, did, where did you make money? How, how are you paid? You know, will that change soon? And then where did you spend your money?

And based on what you told me a little bit ago about what's important to you and you're spending your money, do they match or are there areas where we need to make adjustments? Because if you told me this was important, but your money's going here, then that seems like an opportunity for us to readjust. If you said this was important and you're not spending any money towards that because maybe you think you don't have any, maybe because other things have taken priority, well, how do we make some room in your budget for that thing that's really important to you?

Right? And so we're actually going to look to see where the money is coming from and going. And if it turns out that where it's going and where it's coming from, there's that gap, then knowing that exact number of what that difference is means we can do something about it. You know, if I ask someone, How much more money do you need? They say, I don't know a lot more. I say, well, a lot isn't a number. Right? So let's actually, how much does it cost you to live your life? Let's look at the last 90 days. What money was spent? What money had to go out of your life in order to allow you to live. Okay, great, we have that number. Now, if you were living your best week, your best month, the time where all of your bills have been paid, you were able to put a bit of money away for the future, whether that means it's a savings account or even for a really old you with silver hair, right? And maybe something unexpected, but it doesn't always have to be a bad unexpected. Maybe something great unexpected.

A friend you haven't seen in 15 years had to come to town for something, but they didn't really want to tell anyone so they didn't put it on social media. But they called you and said, Hey, I'm in town. Can we have lunch? And you say, yes, let's have lunch. And you buy the lunch. And you're so happy to see your friend, right? And you were able to do that without the stress of spending that extra money that was unplanned, right? So, how much would that cost you? OK, so now we have that number. I call it the magic number, the number where your life just flows. And I mean, we all have our problems.

But when they come up, they're inconvenient, right? They're not life-changing. So that magic number, okay, so we have your magic number, and then we know how much you have as income. If there's a difference, then we need to figure out exactly the difference and make a plan to close that gap. If there isn't a difference, it means we just gotta shift how you're spending the money so that you can be in that magical space more often.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:57)

amazing. I'm curious, can people easily grow their income to then make it easier to afford these other things that will make life flow? Or do you think they need to? How do you balance cutting back and growing?

Dr Darla Bishop (20:17)

I'm so glad you asked. So there are really two ways to change your money story. One is to decrease how much you spend, and the other is to increase your income. Now I myself have a very well calibrated budget and so I don't have a lot of room to even cut because every month I'm recalibrating it to make sure that it, that is what we're spending on childcare and that's what we're spending on food and that's what we're spending on sports for the kids and that's what we're spending for our housing, right?

So I don't have a whole lot of wiggle room to be cutting things, right? And many of the people I meet, if they are tight, they don't have room to cut either. And so the answer is, we've got to go increase our income. Now, so much of this is dependent on, again, your environment. Where do you live? Is it easy for you to go and get a side job, whether it's a temporary delivery job, whether it's a call center at night or early in the morning?

Is it that you could babysit or do house cleanings on the weekends or clean businesses on the weekends? Do you work in an environment where it'd be easy for you to kind of pick up a temporary side job for three or six months? Now, if you don't live in a place where that's easy, then that means we gotta do a couple of things. We gotta figure out is there a training program or education that we can get you so that you can get a better-paying job in the field you're already in?

Is there something you can do online so that even though you can't physically get to a place to work that will pay you differently, maybe you can sell a service or a product online so that you can get a bit of money in. Are you in the position to move? And not today, but maybe we can make a six month plan to what it might look like so that you could move to a different city. Do you have a friend? Do you have a relative? Do you have an old coworker or classmate who might allow you to live with them for 30 or 60 days so that you can get to the new place, get a better income, and then get on your feet? And so it's about understanding where you are and where you wanna go, and then almost like working backwards. So how do I get there?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:20)

Okay, the 30-day plan, the six-month plan. It sounds like that's a crucial part of this. Think ahead. And it seems obvious, but some people don't think about the long term. And in my experience during, for example, the pandemic, things were changing so often that I didn't think that I could plan ahead. I didn't want to guess what the next month or a year was going to look like because we didn't know. Do you think now we're at a point in history where people need to ask themselves, what is my life going to look like a year from now and even a decade from now?

Dr Darla Bishop (23:02)

It is, and I want to be really sensitive here because I know that if you have been in the survival game for any amount of time, if you have really been taking it day by day, week by week, that this is such a hard thing to shift. Such a hard thing to shift because you've been so focused on surviving that you might not have that hope in the same way. You might not have that drive, that belief that things could be different or better. And so I want you to know that I hear that and that one of the best things you could do is that if you are in a situation that is not ideal, to start paying attention and shifting how you talk. Because one of the most powerful ways we can change our brain is by changing our language. And sometimes it's hard to change our brain, but it's easier to change our language. The way that I saw this play out for me early in my journey, I was still in college, and I was working extra. think I was working probably three jobs, maybe four, depending on the semester. All part-time, like five hours a week here, 10 hours a week here, because these are on-campus jobs. So the professor or the front desk doesn't need a lot of hours for you, and they know you're a student. So they're only gonna schedule you for five or 10 hours anyway. So I've pieced together a bunch of jobs to make sure that I have enough money to pay on my responsibilities and save because I really wanted to leave college with some money in the bank because I knew that if I wanted to move to a new city, if I ⁓ wanted to go to a different place, I would probably need at least rent for the first month or two because my family loved me but wouldn't be able to support me financially. So I needed to have the money saved so that when I graduated, I could move without issue. And so as I was working, now, my friends would be like, Are you going to come to the party tonight or Are you going to come to the thing? And I'd be like, well, what time does it end? They're like, all right, right, right. You've got to work. Right. So does it, will it be over before 11? Cause I get off at 11. All right. Because you'd rather be tired than broke. That's one of the things I used to say. People would be like, Well, why are you so tired? Why are you working so much? And I say, because honestly, I'd rather be tired than broke in this stage of my life. I'd rather be tired than broke. And apparently, I said it so much that my friend would start to say it back to me, and they'd kind of say it with an eye roll. Or they'd kind of say it in a way where they were like making fun of me. But every time someone else said those words to me, it was like an affirmation and a reminder, that's right, right now I'd rather be tired than broke. So keep going, go to work, go to the party after, ask for the pictures, ask for the story. When you're walking to class, like it was a wonderful reminder that I was working towards something and that I had been so clear about what I was working towards that even the people around me knew it.

Right? And so that's the super powerful thing about paying attention to your language. So if you're in a place right now and you utter the words, I'll be broke forever. Well, yeah, you will be because you just said that. And so if you're starting out shifting that to, you know what? I'm learning more about money every day, or I'm seeing that things are shifting. I don't know how fast, I don't know how big, but I can feel that something is changing, or I learned something, and I put it into action, to like actually talk really positively about those things because then when those words hit your brain from the outside, you start to get a different neural connection. And then a few weeks in, a few months in, all of a sudden, you will be talking and thinking really positively about your situation.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:42)

You would rather be tired than broke. Let's unpack that. This will be the big quote of the episode because there's so much going on there. I have seen multiple guests on this show becoming burned out and then journeying to recover from their burnout. But then also there are the ones who also will work hard and the burned out ones work hard still, but in different ways and they recover. I'm guessing you would have found a balance. You weren't wrecking yourself. You were just managing your time and your energy differently and you're willing to do extra. And that's, I think we need to bust myths. This is just a whole lot of myth-busting. Okay. Because I feel inspired by a few people online who are saying, You don't need to not work on a weekend. I love that. Have the sort of, if anyone has the creative mind where you always want to be doing something, then it's a joy, and it can be great fun to create, to serve, to do either of those forms of work. And so if you can find the joy in that, it will help, but also, you're willing to be doing extra, but you're not ruining yourself, right?

Dr Darla Bishop (28:12)

Yeah, and I think one, this was when I was in my 20s. And so again, the energy bank and the demands on my time were completely different than they are now that I have young children and a family, right? Like, and so I want to put that into context, that one, I was in my 20s. And so the energy was also just more plentiful. And I didn't have that many demands on my time as a college student, right? Like, if you're enrolled in 18 credits, that means that you're sitting in class 18 hours a week and maybe have 20 to 30 hours of homework if you're doing it, which, hey, I graduated, so we're not gonna talk about that, right? But there are 168 hours in a week. And so that means that if I'm dedicating about 40 to school, that I've got another 128 to work with for sleeping, feeding myself, physical activity, recreation and work.

And so I used all 168 hours of my week to the full advantage because I knew that I could work hard at that time in my life without it hurting anyone except myself. Maybe, maybe I'd be tired, but I wasn't neglecting a child or a spouse. I wasn't, you know, doing something that would be harmful to my community by working extra. So heck yeah, I'm going to work extra. And I think the other piece, too, is I knew that putting in that work for a year or two. Because I think when I sat down at that time and mapped out, okay, I want to graduate with this amount of money in the bank. I have this much time until I graduate. I knew that I'd be doing this for about 18 months or two years, right? And I was like, well, two years, if two years can completely change my financial trajectory from this and for audio-only listeners, I'm taking my hand and pointing it down versus taking my hand and making it a hockey stick up, then that sounds like it's something that's worth it. And so a few of those actions that I took as a 20-something, as a young 20-something, opening a retirement account, putting money in a savings account, paying attention to credit card debt and making a plan to pay it down as a new graduate has set me up to where as a 40-year-old, I have lots of money in my retirement account, like more money than I think I ever imagined I'd ever have. But all because I put $5 in every few weeks or $20 in every few weeks as a 20-year-old, right? And so it's one of those things where if you know that that temporary squeeze, and again, I don't like to talk about it as a sacrifice because it was an active choice.

It was an active choice to work at Chris. It was an active choice to take those jobs and to do them. It was an active choice. So it wasn't about sacrificing. It was an active choice because I knew I wanted something different and that because I was working already at a disadvantage, right, that I needed to kind of overdrive to both overcome the disadvantage I started with and get ahead. And that doing that for two years was going to absolutely be worth it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:25)

This is fun.

If you feel disadvantaged, then you can just do extra to compensate for a while and rebuild. And if you keep that momentum, then you can grow even more than the people who are not doing extra.

Dr. Darla Bishop (31:47)

Absolutely. And then, like, my capacity is huge. People ask me all the time, Well, how do you get so much done? And I'm like, well, if I'm honest, since I was 20, I've always worked a lot of different jobs. And like the three or four jobs I had were all different. And so that means that my brain has actually gotten really good at changing between different things, but also finding ways to connect them. And so that means that I've got 20 years of experience working a whole lot taking things that don't seem like they make sense and helping them make sense to the other people. And so I've got 20 years of experience over someone who hasn't done this. And because...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:24)

Okay.

A couple of things we need to look at, because in a moment, I want to hear about how you manage your workload now that you have a family, that will be informative to the audience a lot. But you said that you find a common thread between the work that you do. And I'm curious about what that looks like for you, because for me, I look, I still love to volunteer a little bit, even though I need to work for money more. But both of those things might be Canva stuff or Adobe stuff. And although I'm not doing both of those things at the same time, you serve one master in a moment, but your brain can just see that common thread, and you feel the continuity. But how does that common thread look like in your work?

Dr. Darla Bishop (33:09)

So what I've figured out is there are a few things that really matter to me in the work that I do, whether it's paid or volunteer, I need to be working on things and with people and with organisations that will help me to improve the health of communities. Now, the great thing about that is, you know, how many ways you can improve the health of communities? Shoot, being friendly and kind and thoughtful improves the health of a community. Providing services can improve the health of the community.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:25)

Not

Dr Darla Bishop (33:39)

Working on policies that shift how this environment works can improve the health of community. So, the way that that looks, I'm actually pretty open to it as long as I can see a way that what I am doing is improving the health of this community. Cool, great. The other thing that matters to me is I have to work in spaces that trust that they have hired or accepted smart people because I need to have a little bit of flexibility because of the brain, the way my brain works. You know, you can tell me that this is due by two o'clock, no problem. But you can't tell me I have to work on it between 10 and two. My brain will revolt. But as long as I know that it's done by this time and however, which way I got there, as long as I got there, you don't have a problem with that, that I can work in that environment. But working in very strict time bound like production environments just doesn't work for the brain the way that my brain works. It just doesn't. So I avoid spaces like that. And the last thing, yes, yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:43)

Totally.

What, what sort of brain do you think you have? And I'm not insisting that you identify with any labels, but some people sort of see traits of ADHD in them, even if they don't think they could, could totally be that, or it could be something else. So, what do you think your quirky brain is, and how is that helping you in your success?

Dr Darla Bishop (35:11)

I absolutely have suspected ADHD. My therapist had suggested I get tested. Well, no, no, I said, should I get tested? She said, Well, you use it as a superpower. like, if you like, you're okay, like are any of these things troubling you? was like, the only thing that's starting to get harder as I'm now over 40 is the insomnia that can come with ADHD. But other than the insomnia, like this is a superpower. The fact that I can switch between things and get hyper focused, but then also come up and be like in the clouds has really worked in my advantage as my life. So I'm just going to keep rolling with it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:50)

Definitely. There's a sort of hyper energy that a lot of us can get. And I sort of wonder if the people who are more open to alternative aspirational paths. I don't like to use just the word entrepreneurialism because I wanted to really respect that there are people who are growing businesses well, and there are very official CEOs, things like that. And then there are people who are just starting from scratch and saying, I'm the CEO of the name that I wrote down yesterday. I want to really differentiate that. And I also think that you can pursue a lot of success without being entrepreneurial necessarily. Sheryl Sandberg is the classic example. But wherever we are looking to live a different life, I just keep saying that so many of those people have a very quirky mind. Do you think that it really helps us?

Dr Darla Bishop (36:51)

Absolutely, and it's another term that I've heard for it is like What is it, a multi-hyphenate or a multi-potential light? Someone who's like, when someone tells you Well, you got a niche down and we're like No, I refuse to niche down. I can't, do not put me in a box.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:09)

Okay, let's explore that.

We need to, we need to reference this. I don't know if you were thinking of Marie Forleo, but she calls it multi-passionate, I think. But okay, I got that right. Here's my take on that. If you find a common purpose and there's that thread going through things, then that's the difference. So my version was when I was in my twenties, I tried various forms of marketing content. As a Korean, some people occasionally would say, You are a writer and I was thinking, seriously, did you see my school reports back in the day? You've got to be kidding. But it's boxed in, then don't try visuals, you are a writer, that sort of thing, but even as a speaker, now, I, earlier in the year, frankly, for a while at the start of this year, I thought that to be a speaker, I would just talk to small community groups. That was the thing that I knew. And the podcast just popped up out of nowhere. And we need to see our skills as transferable. You are seeing a version of that where you are educating people with finance and growing themselves through your independent work. And you're probably using that in your jobs in other ways as well. And even because you are doing things independently and showing up on a podcast, you have that personal branding element to what you're doing. And even you talk quite confidently, you do need to bring in extra skills to then do one unified purpose. Do you think so?

Dr Darla Bishop (38:51)

absolutely.

And they all feed each other, like all the different things I'm doing feed each other in some way. In fact, some of the most kind of random jobs that I've had in my long career of many, many jobs are the ones that serve me the most. Like one of the best employment opportunities I had was as a waiter in a popular restaurant on my college campus. And what was so great about being a waiter in that particular restaurant is we had a full range of clientele. We had the broke students who were coming on Monday night for $1 burgers. They're like, okay, I want the $1 burger and the $1 fries and a cup of water, right? And then on parents' weekends or graduation, we had the parents who you could tell were just so happy that their child was graduating, and they're spending hundreds of dollars on a meal, ordering wine, ordering dessert and everyone in between.

And so that meant that in the moment when I'd get to a table, I had to be able to quickly kind of read what kind of table this is. Do they want me to be involved and to explain the wine and to suggest meals? Are they there because they're having a conversation, and this is the place that they had it, and they just want me to be seen but not heard? Are they on a budget and so they want to have a good time, but they also don't want me to spend too much time with them because they don't want to feel badly if they couldn't tip me big, right?

I needed to be able to kind of quickly assess what type of experience that table needed to have and then provide that to them, right? That helps me so much in podcasts, episodes, in sales calls, in interviews, because I can pretty quickly assess, ⁓ this is the speed, this is the vibe we're going for, cool, I'll match your energy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:37)

Yes, yes, and I love what you were saying. It's really interesting. We're talking about the past years so much, but we can translate that to our 30s and 40s as well. You learned about people waitressing and I wanted to share with you the example that came to me for a little while, more than a decade ago, about 11 or 12 years ago, I was at the front desk at the smallest school you could imagine. There were 70 kids on the books, and there were less showing up. But I learned everything and I wanted to give this lesson to anyone who is working for someone else. Because at that time I was responsible for the records. was doing what I can as a clueless person.

I was responsible for the records for international students, and their visas would be cancelled if they're not complying with requirements. But I was also responsible for checking on the welfare, and there was an elevator, and a friend who was teaching on the floor below knew if I was coming downstairs, something was going on. Someone needs something checked. And my nickname was Daph.

A dear friend called me Darth, and it was both affectionate and accurate, but it teaches your professionalism. And the reason I'm sharing that with you is because as the front desk, I could have sat there and said, the front desk. No. And I think that a lot more, more bosses would have greater workers or greater results from their workers, if we can let anyone be Darth when they need to, to really achieve something or let people read the room with all of those families and groups of people and say, okay, what can everybody learn from this person who is visiting this place? And what can everybody learn about what others need? Because then you have that effect, kind of like Disneyland, where the whole environment is set up to help the person who's stepping in.

Dr Darla Bishop (43:07)

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:11)

So I wanted to ask about now because you mentioned that you have a family, and your time and energy is very different now. There are two things I wanted to look at with that. I feel like it's so cliched to ask, How do you juggle your time as a mother? So I wanted to do it that way, but I'm curious about the differences and how it sounds like. So do you work for other people and also work for yourself now?

Dr Darla Bishop (43:36)

Yeah, so all of the above. So I work, I do still have a full-time job that's about 40 hours a week. ⁓ And I have a business that I run. That's the financial education business on nights of weekends. And I teach for a university, but usually just one class per semester. And oftentimes it's an online class. So when the class meets is either flexible or I just post the videos and respond to chat. So I don't have to be at the location at a specific time. You might have seen a theme here that, like, I need that flow because sometimes my brain is in teacher mode, and so I need to be able to grade papers if my brain is telling me we're in grade paper mode. And I need to work on a report when my brain tells me we're working on a report. And so having the ability to flex and move things around is what helps me be successful. And really that's why I'm able to do those multiple things is because each of those setups has that flexibility built in, that it doesn't so much matter, as long as I've met the deadline for grading, as long as I've met the deadline for the reports at work, as long as I'm showing up to meetings on time, then all that stuff in between isn't as important because I'm also going to deliver or over deliver on what I'm required to do, right? And so one, I've built a lot of flexibility in my life. The other piece that helps is I have gotten very good, like so good, like,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:52)

Absolutely.

Dr Darla Bishop (45:02)

a master at asking for help. And so I'm an I think I mentioned very briefly that I'm a military spouse. So what that means in my real life is that the army actually moves me every 2.7 years on average. So every two totally different cities or states, totally different cities or states. Sometimes we get a few months' notice, you know, three months, two months. Sometimes it's like, hey, we're cutting your orders next week.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:18)

to a totally different city or state, a totally different place.

Dr. Darla Bishop (45:30)

And so what that taught me to do is that as soon as I know where we're moving to, I start to build my helpers because I don't need the helpers all the time, but when I need them, I need them. Right. And so as soon as I know what city we're going to, I joined the moms of city Facebook group. I joined the business owners of city Facebook group. I joined the parenting magazine of cities Facebook group, because then that helps me find the babysitters, the doctors, the laundry service, the meal prep and so that as we're moving, I'm already building my list of helpers so that by the time we arrive, I at least have the dry cleaner that can do dry cleaning and laundry if I need the laundry done. The restaurant that offers dinner delivery that won't be too unhealthy because my husband's in the military, so he has to keep a certain weight, right? So I can eat whatever I want, but I try to be mindful because I like him being employed. A place where I can take the kids so that I can either drop them or make sure that they're supervised in case I need an hour or two to work without them jumping all over me or where I can find the babysitters so that if my husband is away but I need the coverage, I can say, hey, I know we talked like a few months ago when we first moved here, can you come babysit this week? Because I already talked with them a few months ago, right? So I'm doing the work of setting up my list of helpers, even if I never use them, so that when I need them, I'm not also having to search for the helper. I just have to go to my list and activate the helper instead of finding the helper, vetting the helper, and activating the helper. And so that's one of the things that I recommend to women, especially anytime they have a life change on their horizon, whether it's a move, a job change, going back to school or graduating from school, I say, Hey, what are all the things in your life that take your time or energy? Make a list of those things, and once you're done being pissed off, take a deep breath and think about who could help you with those things if you needed the help. I'm not saying you need the help today. I'm not saying you ever need the help, but if you have a list or an idea of who could help you when these things come up, it'll be a lot less overwhelming to activate the help versus looking for the help, vetting the help, and then also having to activate it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:44)

Definitely don't wait until you are in a crisis or desperate or something happens, and it could be anything. The thing that I'm inspired by and what you are saying is look for multiple groups, look for multiple types of people. And there are so many ways to do this. The Facebook groups are great. The community groups are crucial, and you don't have to join everything, but visit people, get to know people. And I don't know if you saw this in any of the cities you lived in, but I found in a few of the cities I lived in, everybody is a friend of a friend. So you can normally say, Do you know someone who or Do you know someone who knows this person? And even when I was in Sydney, it's a bit more spread out.

So not everybody will instantly know you, perhaps, but the degrees of separation are always more minimal than you think they are. So if you even need to find someone for anything, have you done things like the, do you know someone who can do this?

Dr Darla Bishop (48:57)

absolutely. I am the one, so in our neighbourhood, we have a neighbourhood group, and I always start my post, hi, me again, here to ask who you know who can help with this? Because I'm like, hey, just because I don't know, and Google and search engines take you far, but sometimes it's nice to know that this is a person who's worked in our neighbourhood. Like we needed a plumber and I was like, yeah, I can look in the internet, but maybe.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:06)

us.

Dr Darla Bishop (49:24)

My neighbor knows a plumber that they love and they use all the time, right? Well, hopefully not using all the time because that's unfortunate. But I got some great recommendations. So, yeah, I am so good to be like, hey, me again. Anybody know someone who can do this? Or one thing that I've been doing as a business owner is because I am working really hard to keep the business expenses low while we're growing. And so I gotten really good at trading things. For instance, like I'm super good at writing copy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:36)

Yeah.

Dr Darla Bishop (49:53)

I am very good at writing copy, especially because I use AI to help me do things faster and to organise my thoughts so that I can really get the writing done easily. But I'm not so good at creating graphics like in Canva. It takes me forever because I look at all the templates and I love them all and I start one, say, no, this isn't exactly right. Then I start another, and no, that's not exactly right. Then all of a sudden, I've spent an hour and I haven't actually built the graphic, and I just needed one graphic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:15)

and decisive.

Dr. Darla Bishop (50:21)

And so just this week, or it must've been Thursday. So a few days ago, I put a note in the business community and said, Hey, is there anybody who's super good at Canva? need like five Canva images for my Black Friday sale. And, but I am not so good at it. So, if you need a website refresh, if you need some marketing emails written, I could write those for you in a couple of days. Anybody wants to trade? And I got a fantastic trade of someone who made me beautiful, beautiful, beautiful graphics and turn them around to me in like a day. I'm working on their website copy and I'm having a delight. I got to interview them about their business. I got to ask them what they want people to experience when they come to the website. I'm working on the copy, and I'm loving working on the copy for this website and would have just dreaded the Canva process.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:18)

Absolutely. You need to find people who can help with the things that you are struggling with. And that could be anything. And also photographers, anyone who is starting a personal brand or growing it, there will be someone, I learned this way too late. There is always someone who is a new photographer needing to build up their portfolio, doing some discounts or a few freebies.

Find someone who is willing to do a deal or just totally trade, even for testimonials. Have you seen a lot of people will give you bit of something in exchange for testimonials?

Dr. Darla Bishop (52:00)

haven't used that, but I will start now that you've reminded me. Thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:04)

It happens, but the trade feels inspired by what you were doing because I don't know if people do that enough. And although we do need to have money and grow money, you can find, you can find things that don't cost anything in all sorts of ways. Even sometimes on Facebook Marketplace, people are giving away something for free. They just want to get rid of it. That happens. There is so many ways to save money as you are building yourself up and

So what exactly do you do within your business, and how did you go from just working for other people to then also working in your own business? Because I think everybody needs to learn this now.

Dr Darla Bishop (52:48)

Yeah, so what it was is I read more than a hundred books about money and was constantly frustrated about a couple of things that were left out. And so I talked for years about I'm going to write a book about money. I'm going to write the book about money that I wish I had so I didn't have to read so many to feel like I understood money. Right. And so as I was starting to write the book, I was like, all right, well, I want to actually sell it. So I probably have to start a business so that I can sell it, take care of the taxes, and be legitimate. And then once the book was finished and people bought it, I said, Well, whoa, people bought it. Maybe they want to hear me talk. And so then I was able to get a few speaking engagements, and some money came in that way. And I said, well, darn, the only thing about speaking engagements is I have to physically be there. And so, because I've got these kids, I can't always travel. But what's a way that I could reach people even without having to physically travel? Well, of course, there's social media.

But maybe I need to put together a digital course for people who want this information, who want more customised and more detailed, like a process without needing to go to physically train them. And so it's just kind of like, I took one step and then the next and then the next. And that was, actually, had to be very purposeful about that because of the suspected ADHD. I'm often playing out scenarios up until stage 10. And, but then the drop back is yes, I've, played out the scenarios to stage 10, but then I also maybe have a little anxiety because I'm thinking about all 10 of the scenarios, right? And so with this project that started really as a project, like I was like, nope, people say, well, what do you want to do when your book's I said, I'm focused on getting the book done. And then once the book was done, well, now that your book is done, I'm focused on telling people about the book. Okay, well, now that people are starting to know about the book, I'm focused on getting some money for telling people about the book. So, like, really kind of forcing myself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:21)

Right.

Dr Darla Bishop (54:44)

to stay maybe only two steps ahead because sometimes knowing the second and third step changes how you do the first step, right? But only staying two steps ahead instead of 10. And that's how I've been running the business. And it's been really beautiful for two years. The business has been running for about two years. Thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:05)

Congratulations.

The two steps ahead that is sinking in for me so much because I saw the cost of things like housing around here. And I saw the cost of even maintaining a small business, things like that. And the cost of supporting a family. And I thought, okay, I have to become like Oprah. That's a big jump. And that's too many steps ahead. So we absolutely need to look at the steps right in front of us. I think he might've just guided what a lot of us need to hear. Look at what's right in front of you and just a step ahead.

Dr Darla Bishop (55:45)

Don't good.

I hope that helps someone. Really has helped me quite a bit. Like, quite a bit.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:56)

So what do you think your grand purpose is in the long term? Are you going to be growing something beyond how your business is now?

Dr Darla Bishop (56:10)

Yeah, I would because of my husband's military service. It's possible that we may need to move to a place where it will be harder for me to work. Like if we're living in a very rural area or even internationally away from the US because my expertise is in a very specific US healthcare product. I don't know that it will translate the same if I'm somewhere that has a national health service, perhaps.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:33)

think it will. I think it will. But the reason is because you are educating people on basic financial well-being. That, I mean, I'm in Australia, and I feel like I'm inspired by so much of what you were saying. And I think you will find a common thread, even if your main day job specialty is in America. And there could be a way to learn how similar systems work in other countries.

Dr Darla Bishop (56:59)

That's true. So part of it is I'm kind of like, I'm open to being pleasantly delighted, right? Like, I don't have any big plans other than I did take a little bit of business debt to take care of the first year of our expenses because it costs money to start a business and to pay people to do things for the business, especially because I am at work most of the day. And so needing people to kind of respond to emails and to keep things moving so that my business runs even if I have to be at my day job. And so the next thing is I'm working to make sure we have enough income in the business so that the business can be self-sufficient because one, I've taken a bit of debt, and I've given the business a lot of money. So the business needs to pay me back. And then to have enough income coming in that if I'm working not at all or part-time for someone else, that it's okay because the business has enough money coming in that I don't have to change our lifestyle too much because I worked really hard to have this ease. I have so much ease in my life, and I just really just wish that my mom had had this type of ease because, like yes, being a mother is hard, being a working mother is hard, being a military wife is hard, but it's really easy compared to some of the things that my mom had to deal with raising us, and so I'm so thankful about the ease that I have and I also am not interested in letting that ease go.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:30)

amazing. Yes, you don't have to sacrifice comfort, and you deserve to live well. I invite my guests often to recommend at the end three actions that anyone can take, three things that in some way could empower anyone to live

Dr Darla Bishop (58:55)

The three things I would recommend that anyone could do this week, right? It might not be today because, like, you know, I don't know what your plans are today, but you could do it this week. First of all, spend a little bit of time, and you might have to carve out the right environment. It might need to be when you're on a drive or on a walk or when you're kind of in that quiet moment of the day, whether that's having a coffee or a tea, where you can kind of be really thoughtful. And it's like, if you knew that you could design the most beautiful day of your life, the most beautiful week of your life, what would you include in that day? How would you spend your time? Who would you be with? What would you eat? What would you do? What wouldn't you do?

Who would you call or message? What would you watch or read? Really, like get really into the visioning of what a beautiful day in your life looks like. That's the first thing. So once you have that picture in your head, maybe take a piece of paper, because there's really something important about that body-brain connection when you physically write something, it's not the same as texting or typing. So, like getting a piece of paper and writing down all those beautiful things you imagined, are there any that you could put into your life today? And I bet, I bet that at least three or four of those things you could put into your life today without even changing anything. It's just about making a decision to put it on your calendar or changing the order that you're doing certain things so that that part of your day could be part of it. And then the third thing is to decide over and over again that you deserve to have that beautiful life and that as long as you're making choices that get you a little closer to it each day that you'll get there sooner than you think.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:59)

Amazing. Dr Darla, thank you so much for being on the show.

Dr Darla Bishop (1:01:06)

Thank you so much for having me.

Disclaimer: this podcast episode shares personal experience and not medical advice.

Keywords

self-reconnection, trauma response, re-parenting, emotional healing, adult ego

Summary

In this conversation, Dr Jen Draper discusses the importance of reconnecting with one's younger self and intuition. She emphasises that society often does not allow individuals the time to engage in this self-reconnection, which is crucial for emotional healing. The discussion also touches on the common trauma response patterns that can lead to misdiagnosis and the challenges of navigating these issues in everyday life.

Takeaways

Becoming an unpatient allows for reconnection with the younger self. Society does not encourage taking time for self-reconnection. Re-parenting involves pausing before reacting to trauma responses. Common trauma responses can lead to misdiagnosis. Reconnection takes time out of daily interactions. Helpful clinicians can sometimes pigeonhole individuals into disorders. Emotional healing requires intentionality and time. The adult ego has a role in self-reconnection. Understanding trauma responses is key to healing. Self-reconnection is a vital part of emotional well-being.

Sound bites

"becoming an un-patient" "opportunity to reconnect" "untreatable disorder"

Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson http://melaniesuzannewilson.com

Guest: Amanda Baker www.youamazeme.org

Keywords

authenticity, fulfilment, self-expression, work-life balance, personal growth

Summary

Therapist and yoga teacher Amanda Baker shares how she blends clinical training, trauma-informed therapeutic yoga, and creativity to help people regulate their nervous system, heal beyond words, and live more authentically. We unpack "play vs work," somatic tools, breathwork, heated vs non-heated practice, identity beyond labels, and how to follow your intuition without burning out. Expect practical ways to use movement, stillness, and the breath to find calm, confidence, and clarity on the mat and in everyday life.

See more about this episode, including the transcript, and discover more about The Motivate Collective:

http://motivatecollective.com

All show notes and transcripts are automatically generated.

**From Breakup to Breakthrough: Confidence, Co-Parenting & Life After Plus One with Leanne Hutchinson** Episode Description

After walking out with "nothing but my daughter and a suitcase," Leanne Hutchinson rebuilt her life—and now helps other single parents do the same. In this heartfelt episode, she joins Melanie Suzanne Wilson to discuss breakups, co-parenting, dating after separation, and staying authentic in an online world that labels everything. Together, they explore confidence, communication, and letting go of the past so you can create a healthier, more grounded next chapter.

> *Note: This conversation shares personal experience only and is not a substitute for professional counselling or medical advice.*

---

## 🎧 Guest

**Leanne Hutchinson — Single Parent Coach, Life After Plus One**

* Founder of *Life After Plus One* and host of the *Life After Plus One Podcast*

* Supports single mums and dads through separation, co-parenting, and dating

* Background in coaching and counselling with lived experience as a single parent

* Passionate about self-growth, confidence, and real-world emotional recovery

---

## 🎙️ Host

**Melanie Suzanne Wilson** — Speaker, mentor, and host of *The Motivate Collective Podcast*

---

## ⏱️ Chapters & Time Stamps

00:00 – Welcome & Leanne's mission helping single parents

01:07 – Leaving with a suitcase: her breakup story and loss of support network

03:35 – Neutral, non-judgmental coaching for parents rebuilding life

04:39 – Are breakups becoming more common? The social media influence

06:39 – Labels, "red flags," and the problem with over-labelling

09:13 – Identity and victimhood: moving from "I am" to "I've learned"

10:39 – Opinions, truth, and why we need to question social media debates

16:15 – Real support versus momentary campaigns like *R U OK? Day*

20:27 – Overcoming loneliness & finding new community

26:59 – Growth through learning, courses, and self-development

31:46 – Dating apps, boundaries, and emotional baggage

34:36 – Rebound relationships & attention vs. alignment

38:04 – How soon to meet someone new? The case for a phone call first

41:15 – Communication as the real red flag

46:16 – Blending families & aligning expectations early

49:45 – Authenticity in social media and business

55:27 – Selling with honesty & understanding your audience

1:01:01 – Leanne's top three actions for your next chapter

1:03:50 – Closing gratitude

---

## 💡 Key Takeaways

* **Identity isn't destiny:** Your past story doesn't define your future.

* **Social media ≠ reality:** Question assumptions and online "truths."

* **Dating isn't a bandaid:** Heal first, then connect authentically.

* **Communication builds clarity:** If you can't talk to your partner, that's a red flag.

* **Confidence is currency:** Growth happens when you back yourself.

* **Stay in your lane:** Focus on how you show up for your kids, not on proving your ex wrong.

---

## 🗣️ Memorable Quotes

* "Don't let your past become your identity—use it as your lesson." — *Leanne Hutchinson*

* "If you can't talk to your partner, that's the red flag." — *Leanne Hutchinson*

* "There's judgment in every walk of life; it's whether you choose to listen to the noise." — *Leanne Hutchinson*

* "Stay in your lane. Focus on being better than who you were yesterday." — *Leanne Hutchinson*

---

## 🔗 Resources & Mentions

* **Life After Plus One** — Coaching and podcast for single parents

* **Social handles:** [@lifeafterplusone](https://www.instagram.com/lifeafterplusone)

* **Website:** [lifeafterplusone.com](#) (insert URL when available)

* **Melanie Suzanne Wilson:** [melaniesuzannewilson.com](https://www.melaniesuzannewilson.com)

* Related Episodes: *Rebuilding Confidence After Burnout* | *Finding Your People Post-Breakup*

---

## ✅ Action Steps for Listeners

1. **Rebuild confidence:** Try one small challenge this week that expands your comfort zone.

2. **Detach from labels:** Write down the titles you've outgrown (e.g., "single mum," "divorced") and what you want to embody instead.

3. **Join one new community:** Whether it's a walking club, creative class, or local café—connection starts small.

---

## ⚠️ Disclaimer

This episode shares personal stories and insights for educational purposes only. It is **not** medical or psychological advice. Please seek qualified support for your specific situation.

---

## 📲 Connect

🎧 Listen on: **Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts**

🌐 Learn more: [www.motivatecollective.com](https://www.motivatecollective.com)

📩 Enquiries: **[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])** or **melaniesuzannewilson.com/contact**

---

## 🧭 Episode Tags

#singleparentcoach #breakuprecovery #coparenting #datingafterdivorce #confidencecoach #lifecoaching #mentalhealth #selfgrowth #socialmediawellness #themotivatecollective #melaniesuzannewilson

---

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Leanne, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here.

Leanne Hutchinson (00:04)

Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:06)

I'd like to firstly invite you to share with people what exactly you do before we're going to explore how you ended up where you are and doing what you do.

Leanne Hutchinson (00:18)

So I'm a single-parent coach. I work with single parents, both mums and dads that are going through their breakup. A lot of them are in that phase where they're transitioning from going into their breakup. They're just becoming a single parent for the first time, just learning to adjust with those emotions and learning to get through that breakup. There's also other parents I work with that are further along that are looking into blending families, they're repartnered back in the dating world, and they're just trying to get out of that dating cycle that they just keep getting caught up in that gets them nowhere. So mainly working with single parents and helping them to handle their life in a better way, that's more beneficial for them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:59)

Wonderful. So what led you to do this, and what led you to become a single parent as well?

Leanne Hutchinson (01:07)

Well, I have a background in coaching and counselling, but when I broke up with my daughter's father, gosh, about 12 years ago, it was very high conflict, very toxic. I walked out with nothing but my daughter and a suitcase of clothes. And where I'm living, I had no other family around me at the time. And I'm just...

I was alone, very much alone. And what made it even harder was when I was going through that, my friends conveniently believed his version of the breakup. So I also lost my friends through that. So that was really adding salt to the wound. And I remember saying that when I get through this, I wanna come out and do what I can to grow as a person so I can give back.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:46)

Yeah.

Leanne Hutchinson (01:58)

And I also remember that when I was going through it, I saw a therapist, and even though she was lovely, she was great. I just felt like I didn't have that connection because she'd never been through that herself. You know, she was able to still give support and advice, but I feel like you can connect a lot more with someone who's actually been through what you've been through. And that's why I'm so passionate about what I do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:22)

I completely agree that you can't really imagine the reality, the day-to-day reality of that sort of situation, unless you have lived in it, because there are the small details and also the reality at 2 am or

Leanne Hutchinson (02:37)

100%.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:47)

Dinner time is totally different than the glimpse that someone might get of a situation when chatting with someone in the middle of the day about a situation.

Leanne Hutchinson (02:55)

Yep. Yeah, it's, it's very different just being in and, you know, like you can put a question out to someone on Facebook and say, Hey, what should I do in this situation? But quite often, they're going to respond from their breakup story. They're not giving you support. They're saying this is what I went through. So you should do this. It's not always the best advice. So with my line of work, there's no judgment. There's no, your ex is an asshole, this has happened, it's okay, let's look at what's happened. How can we make this better for you? It's very neutral, neutral playing field here, no judgment, just let's make this better for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:35)

Right, right. You mentioned counselling. Is that what you worked in before becoming a coach?

Leanne Hutchinson (03:40)

Well, I started doing a degree in counselling, a bachelor's degree, but I was going, I was doing that when I broke up with my daughter's father. And just due to single-parent life and everything like that, I got three-quarters of the way through and didn't finish. So I have completed all the counselling components and done all the main parts of it, but there's just a small portion. And it's one of those things you just keep, I'll go back to it, I'll go back to it, but it's.

You know, so that's why I don't call myself a counsellor. I've done the counselling modules and what's needed, but I have done the coaching work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:15)

It's amazing that you did find a way to support people before completing years of formal steps. The breakup. I'm wondering if you agree that especially post COVID, it seems like there's such a trend for breakups, especially in recent years.

Leanne Hutchinson (04:39)

I do feel like it is becoming way too, I don't know if I would say easy. I feel like people are giving up too easily. And I don't know if that's got to do with social media. I think that would probably have a huge part in it. And that's possibly relates to the comment that I just said when people go on Facebook and give an opinion and everyone's like, no, leave them, get out. You shouldn't stay, red flag and all these things. It's like, but hold on.

You don't know the whole story, you're only hearing a small little snippet. They may still be able to make that relationship work. I feel like there's, I mean, I could be wrong. I'm not here to comment on everyone, but from what I see, I feel like a lot of people are giving up way too easy and not doing everything they can to make the relationship work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:28)

Yes. Do you think everything has been a red flag these days?

Leanne Hutchinson (05:33)

I think that gets way overused. I think people are labelling things. And I talk about this a bit on my podcast as well. People are putting way too much focus on labelling things without actually looking at, okay, what is going on? It's like the word narcissist. If you're a narcissist, you're a narcissist. It's like, hold on. They may have said something you don't like. It doesn't mean they're a narcissist. So I think there needs to be more focus on what the actual problem is, and let's focus on, let's give this a label.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:05)

Yes, I agree with that for relationships and also for individuals. I live a bit north of you where the disability industry is almost religious. And whether it's that or the culture of calling everybody a narcissist, I'm not saying that nobody has a disability. I'm not saying nobody is a narcissist, but suddenly the moment, the moment that anything feels a bit

Leanne Hutchinson (06:19)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:35)

unusual. How many labels can we put on this?

Leanne Hutchinson (06:39)

Do you know what I feel like that stems from? And again, I can't comment on everything, but for me, I feel like people are using that as their identity. And quite often I see like, cause when I left my daughter's father, that was a DV relationship. And I have spoken that about, I have spoken a bit about that on my podcast, but I don't like to dwell on that because it's not my identity. I've spoken about where I am today and what got me to here, but I'm not going to sit there and say I'm a DV survivor.

And I see it a lot on social media. I'm a single mum, I left a DB relationship five years ago. It's like, I'm really sorry you went through that, but it's not who you are now. You don't need to make that the story of your life. It's hard as horrible as it is to go through that situation. And again, I don't want to disrespect anyone going through that. And I really don't, and I hope that hasn't come out in a bad way, but.

There's way too much emphasis on putting a title as someone's identity instead of, okay, I've been through that. It was a horrible situation. How can I make this better?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:47)

I think what you're doing is empowering people and not shaming them because we're not discrediting the experience that people went through, and some great people in this world have gone through all sorts of things. lived through a lot as a young person. So things happen, but it's the I am a, and I can identify with what you're saying so much because in my

Leanne Hutchinson (07:51)

100 %

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:14)

very, very early adulthood days. There were moments when I was just a student in jeans and that's all I wanted to see myself as these days. Someone of a similar age would be making millions from TikTok. I don't understand it, but they do. And there were moments when I saw myself as a volunteer and I could not break that or a marketing worker. It's like people wanted to box me in as your writer, your this, your that. And with the single mom,

I think that the single mom label can box people in. I don't know if it boxes women into the suburbs or into extra limitations, people assuming you have less time, but do you think that any of these labels, any of the IMA, do you think it is just holding people back into a past identity instead of empowering people to redefine themselves and say, this is who I am now?

Leanne Hutchinson (09:13)

100%. 100 % and I feel like, yeah, it's holding people back. It's kind, it's like that whole victimhood mentality. This is me. I can't change because I've been through this. I'm a single mom. I can't better my life. And you know that that stigma, no matter who you are, what genre or walk of life you come from, there is going to be judgment for everyone. Even if you're wealthy, there's judgment. Oh, look at those people. They think they know better. There's judgment for every single walk of life. It's whether or not you choose to listen to that noise. It's whether or not you choose to make that your identity. Well, I'm a single mum, I must have failed. And I see a lot with my line of work, what I do, I see men all the time have a go at me, saying, You must have failed. You obviously didn't try hard enough to make the relationship work. And I sometimes think, well, buddy, first of all, I work with men here too. So I'm not a hit of gender bash anyone. Second of all, you don't know anything about my situation. So how can you even make that assumption? So I don't engage in those comments. For me, that just tells me more about them than it does anything else. And I just leave it be. it really, those judgments just come down to, are you going to believe it? Are you going to let that consume your thoughts? Or are you going to shut it out and say, no, I'm better than that. That's not me at all.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:39)

The, am I going to believe it, tells me that you are one of a few guests this week, emphasising that the truth is relative. It's, we all know it deep down, but people with particular roles at different times decide that their truth is gospel, and we need to question things more. Otherwise, there are so many opinions in the world that we would end up absorbed by so many conflicting opinions, and it would completely rule our lives if we didn't question it.

Leanne Hutchinson (11:14)

And I think a lot of people struggle with that. And again, I don't know if that's something to do with social media, but people struggle with other people having a different opinions. Like we're all not going to agree. And take for an example, yesterday, this won't be yesterday as this goes to air, but yesterday here in our time, it was Melbourne Cup. And there was, as you know, when it comes to Melbourne Cup time, there's a lot of controversial posts coming out about Melbourne Cup.

So I purely got on and questioned something, not agreeing or disagreeing. I made a neutral comment just making, asking why don't, why these questions only come out of Melbourne Cup? Why are they not? Why is this not put out there all the time? And I had so many negative comments directed at me, like, ⁓ you're this, you're that, you're this. And I even had someone come onto my page and say, How could you book with her? She doesn't even want to get into a debate over horse racing. And I'm like,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:51)

curious.

Leanne Hutchinson (12:12)

I wasn't even getting into a bait. I merely just asked a question to the person that posted it. Curious to know why this isn't something that's put out there all the time. It's only put out one day a year. And that's the thing that people just think that you've got a different opinion. So let's attack them. Let's bring them down anyway we can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:33)

Yes. Okay. My personal subjective response to that, the activism is that, gosh, I've seen a few angles. the commenting on something at a particular time of the year, most activist groups are stretched and relying on volunteers and balancing that with the rest of their lives. And I've seen time and time again, they feel strongly about something, but either

They only have the attention to focus on it at a particular time, but also, it's the classic marketing mentality of, this is this day, be it Mother's Day, whatever. And that's when people want to chime into the relevant conversation of the moment. And I think that's relevant to all of this as well, because let's face it every so often in the media or social media, there'll be…

Why don't you be more inclusive on Mother's Day or Father's Day? What about this group? What about that group? And I reached the point where some people were, I'll just say this. There was some people who were trying to downplay my realities of, well, the categories that are not the categories, but the experiences because they identify as a woman and me living my life meant that it looked like I was trying to look like more of a woman than the people who are suddenly or more newly identifying as a woman. And I felt like I'm not making a statement about someone else. I'm just doing my thing. So it sounds like what you've really drawn upon here is the very widespread dialogue that's around the world, where everything has to be a controversy.

Leanne Hutchinson (14:12)

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's a thing. The person I commented on was a media outlet. It was an Australian media outlet. And I was legitimately curious to know, but then I did get the answer. Someone did comment and say, It's because there's more awareness, and it spreads more attention. I'm like, okay, yeah, that does make sense. So I kind of got the answer I wanted, but I wasn't expecting all the tacks to go, you're this, you're that, you're angry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:27)

And everything is a controversy.

Leanne Hutchinson (14:55)

I'm asking a question, and then to wake up the next morning and have someone comment on one of my posts on my business page. Don't book with her. She can't get even she can't even get into a debate over horse racing. I don't want to get in the debate. It's, but that's just it. Everyone's got to be right. No, you don't. You can respect someone that has a different opinion.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:16)

Yes. And frankly, I see both sides, and it's great that you are asking that question because I think what does come out of that question you asked is we do sometimes only show concern about some groups at a specific time of the year. R U OK Day is the classic example. And I think it has been coming up on the podcast once or twice before, where some people are really concerned, are people really okay? And then we're only talking about it once in the year. And I think that can really come up. People who are to come back to the single parent topic that you focus on, people can end up feeling depressed, feeling helpless, all sorts of things when they are having these life transitions. But then I think that it's very hard to maintain continuity of connection with support for all sorts of reasons, be it the, are you okay day novelty, which it's a great campaign, but it's very momentary. Meanwhile, with any sort of support or help, it can sometimes become quite momentary, or people just drift. Do you see that happening?

Leanne Hutchinson (16:15)

Mm.

Well, depending on what kind of support you're talking about, like if it's a big kind of organisational support, then yeah, I feel like that's kind of, that's now coming from more of a media plug and how is it going to benefit us financially as opposed to what help can we give you? How can we help you? But yeah, coming from a big organisational point of view, I think it's lost that personalisation.

But when it comes to support like what I do, my intent is to kind of be there as much as I can through their journey, so I can help them. I love seeing my clients in their sessions just grow from, I've had many on their first session where they're in tears and they're breaking down. Weeks down the track, they're smiling and laughing. I'm like, I love this. I love this. And that's the whole point. It's not my job to fix someone. I can't fix anyone. You can only fix yourself, but you can choose to listen to the advice and choose to take it on and choose to see things from a different angle. Your life can be a lot easier and happier.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:34)

Yes. I would encourage anyone to find someone who is offering to be there through the journey, because even if you talk with someone for an hour, you can do that repeatedly. I was talking with a GP in a recent recording, and the assumption in that industry is six minutes, six minutes to help someone. So it doesn't matter what the billing time says, anything like that. The assumption is they can basically go up to the next billing category when it's six minutes instead of five.

Leanne Hutchinson (18:10)

And let's be honest, that support is not personalised. That support is okay. What do you need so we can write your script, and we can get some commission from that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:19)

Precisely. That's actually, I'm not sure about the commission side. I did hear, and we won't recap that one. People go and listen to that one, but there's cheaper, more accessible professional development that sessions run by pharmaceutical brands. That's how that all works. But they only have time to see, okay, what are these symptoms? a thing, write a script. Absolutely. So.

Leanne Hutchinson (18:42)

X amount.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:48)

So that's going on with the GP, but I've really seen, I've learned the hard way that personally and professionally, we need to find people who can be around beyond those quick fixes because, because of course, sometimes you will need to go to a doctor or, know, you need those quick helps go to the emergency department, whatever, but

Beyond that initial one, that's a great example as well. You know, someone reaches rock bottom, they go to the emergency department, and seriously, often the trend is for someone to just be out and on their way, and no one follows up with them ever again. You need someone who's on the journey with you to really go from your rock bottom to the next step to becoming the person that you want to be. Is that what you aim for?

Leanne Hutchinson (19:36)

Yep.

Yeah, exactly. And that's what I try and do with my line of work. Like, I have that weekly podcast. So it's, even though that's not directed at someone personally, it's that extra bit of that hit of support that they can get without having to book a session. And those that I do see frequently, I do have a lot of them that check in via, like they might DM me through Instagram or through email, and they will just - something's happened and they need to check in and I'm happy. Don't say, No, sorry, you haven't booked a session. That's what I'm here for. I'm here to check in and offer that support. That's my job as your coach to help you. You got a message, you're stuck on something, message me, and I'm here for you. And that's because, sorry to cut you off there, because there's someone there that's been there and just felt so alone. I wanna know that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:20)

Thank

Yes.

Leanne Hutchinson (20:27)

I don't want them to be alone. I don't want them to feel stuck. I'm here to help you. I want you to get through this messy period.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:35)

You are there for people. And I'm so curious. We're talking about not being alone. And you were on the central coast when you had your split. I've seen the central coast. It's a lot more quiet than places like Sydney. And anyone could be listening to this recording who could be going through something in a place where they are not surrounded by people and surrounded by anyone to turn to. So I'm wondering what was that feeling for you and how did you grow to find your next people?

Leanne Hutchinson (21:11)

It was very lonely without a doubt, and like losing your friends, and my daughter wasn't even in school yet. She was that young, and so it was just that I ended up having to put her in daycare because I thought, you know, I was just an emotional mess. So that was her break from me by putting her in daycare so to speak and you know I didn't really start making friends until she went to school, but still like I'm at a place now where, and I was actually just saying to this to someone yesterday, I know a lot of people, but my friend group is very, very tiny. And I'm okay with that. I'm very fussy with who I let in because I think that's part of when you've been hurt in the past, you are very cautious. But then also it's on the flip side of that. I don't want to let people in that are just going to drain my energy either. you know, and eventually

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:03)

Thank

Leanne Hutchinson (22:10)

to meet new people, this is another thing I kind of work on as well. It comes down to being more confident in yourself and putting yourself out there. I see it a lot with single parents. I've got no friends, I've got no one else. Are you doing anything to make new friends, or are you just hoping that they're gonna knock on your door? Because, yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:26)

I'd love to comment on that.

Join groups. Join groups because that's a crucial step, and we are connecting in a podcast. We've connected remotely, but although that's a great first step and there'll be, there'll be online gatherings, and that's a starting point, but would you agree finding people locally, anywhere, frankly, there are even some groups where you don't have to totally believe what they believe, but if they are

Human beings who are trying to look after their fellow human beings, whatever they are into, do you agree? Just find anyone nearby.

Leanne Hutchinson (23:03)

100 %

And the thing is, and this is again, I'm gonna mention it, social media. This is the positive of social media. It does have its positives, and there are groups, but everything these days, everything, and they're like this dog walking groups. There are elderly walking groups. There's there's groups for everything, like dancing, and I know there's social groups, as dating groups as… Join a group. Join a hobby, join an art class. And there's so many things that I want to do, but I just sometimes my role as a business owner and a mum, it just doesn't allow me to do everything that I want to do. But I'm also at a place where if my daughter's not with me, she's at a dad's, I'm not sitting here lost and going, no, I'm on my own. What am I going to do? She was at a friend's all weekend for a birthday, and she was out for trick-or-treating. And so I didn't spend much time with her, but I filled it up with things for me. And I went out and did things. I went out and had Reiki and did all this nice stuff for me. That's what it's about. You can get out and make friends, but not everyone is going to make the right friends. But it's also about getting out there and doing things that you enjoy. And that's how you can also make friends by doing the things that you enjoy because you're going to meet like-minded people that doing something that you that you also like, whether that's the gym, whether that's an art class, whether that's

Anything. A hobby.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:30)

Anything.

If you even go to a group where you're not chatting and making conversation the whole time, like the gym, yoga, anything like that. I found in my personal experience following yoga that eventually people would say, I've seen you here and it becomes familiar faces. That's a good step. And then you can, if people want to chat when they have a moment, they ask for that, then that's an extra bonus for sure.

Leanne Hutchinson (24:51)

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. And just even like going out for coffee. I've just started going to a new coffee place because I love their coffee, and they've now won my business. But now every day I walk in there like morning Leanne, and it that's nice. And that just feels welcoming in itself. And then the owner comes over and sits down and has a chat with me, every now and then, it's like, you know, you're not my best friend, but it's nice. It just makes you feel like you've made a friend. And that's what it's all about. Just getting out there and saying hi to people and slowly getting out of your comfort zone. That's what it comes down to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:31)

Coffee is a great example, and coffee is almost everywhere, and unless someone is really not into caffeine, and oh yes, if you need something that's not caffeinated, fine. But the coffee places, I know someone who does some of the best coffee in the area quite seriously. I'll let you know afterwards. So I'm not just plugging that place every few episodes, but I was going to that place before I really got to know the people who run it.

Leanne Hutchinson (25:35)

Yes! Yes!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:00)

And it was like a little sanctuary. I could sit there and I know this is a safe space. And I just felt calm in that space. And what I learned then, chatting with those people more, I eventually realised that for those who have the time to make coffee, to make coffee for people, and they enjoy it. Some of them not all, but some actually like the conversation and

Leanne Hutchinson (26:12)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:30)

They'll get conversations with people from all walks of life because we all need that pick-me-up, that energy. So you can, in the right situations, in the right spaces, you can make a bit of conversation with people. So that's it. That's a great example that you used, but I do want to take it a step further and say, I'm wondering if you. Pursued professional development as a way to feel.

Leanne Hutchinson (26:42)

100%. Yep. Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:59)

Like you were growing and thriving after your split, you made great steps to become a coach, and you would have connected with people who helped you in that journey.

Leanne Hutchinson (27:12)

Well, prior to this business, what I'm doing now with Life After Plus One, I also had another business. And when I was in that, again, single mom, solo business owner, so was on my own. So I got out and did a lot of networking events. And that's how I met a lot of local business owners. So I made a very good network of friends and that's another great way, and people just think you're a solo business owner I can't I don't have employees get out of network go to networking events there's so many around these days but when you're saying development are you saying like what what did I do for myself is that what else you mean or

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:53)

whether it's connecting with course providers or whether it's learning something independently or connecting, think networking is amazing. And I'll comment on that, but any of the above anything.

Leanne Hutchinson (28:02)

Yeah.

So for me also, another part that I don't really speak out on a lot because it's for me, it's in my past. I don't dwell on that past for too much, but in 06, I was actually married to someone, were together for 12 years, but we only married for 18 months, didn't last, were high school loves and it was just, anyway, cut a long story short, when we broke up in 2006, that's when I got into a lot of things like Wayne's Wire.

Deepak Chopra, podcasts weren't really a thing then, but I was listening to Oprah on CDs and all that kind of thing. So that's where, for me, that all started. All those books and all that. I was always big on that. And then as time went on, I was getting more and more into it. And each time I learnt that when I was dating people throughout the years, I learned to actually step back and go, okay, what can I take away from this? And that's the biggest thing. And that's one thing I really, really talk about a lot with my line of work. You're not going through this period because the universe is telling you you're an asshole. You're going through this because it's the summit key you need to learn. And that's the biggest thing I took away from whether it be a breakup or a shitty situation I went through, or a period where I'm like, shit, I can't even afford dinner tonight. What do I do? Okay. What can I learn from this? And that's the biggest takeaway I've, I've kind of learned from any hardship I've been through as a single mom. There is always something that we can take away from that, no matter how rock bottom your life has been. There's, and that's how I've learned to grow and um, be stronger in myself. I don't look at it as in, oh shit, okay, I can't afford dinner. Oh well, I've moved in here and we've got to sleep on a blow-up mattress. It's no, okay, this happened. Now, let's do better. Let's grow from this. That's for me, the way I look at things. I need to keep going. I need to kind of do better than what I was, not just for me, but for my daughter.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:15)

Yes, the dating experience can show you what you don't want and who you want to become.

Leanne Hutchinson (30:20)

Yep. Yeah, there's so much you can learn. I think that's just it. People take it so personally. Oh, they didn't like me. It didn't work. They didn't call me. They didn't text me back. Okay, they weren't the one. There is billions of people in the world. Trust me, you'll find someone else. And I see that a lot in my line of work. I'm going to be single. No one's ever going to want me now. Why? Because one person didn't want you. Does that mean everybody else is not going to want you? It's just one situation. And that's that's the whole thing. It's about just step back and look at it from, take your blinkers off and have a look, okay, what's happening here and what can I take away from this?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:57)

Yes, absolutely. The dating experience is so much more complex for sure when you are a single parent or even when you're in a different stage of life. What really shocked me, and I'm so curious about your perspective on this, the apps. So before I started getting out there a few years ago,

I would say that, I'd say that a decade ago is just meeting people in community groups. And I had no idea what the apps were like. And I'm wondering if you meet people or with your own experience where the apps, there is something people need to learn to avoid the hard way, or what's your take on all that.

Leanne Hutchinson (31:46)

You know what, I'm not gonna lie, I've got a profile there, but I'm not active. Because for me personally, I'm okay being single, I have no problems, I'm not trying to rush the process. I'm a big believer in the right person's gonna come at the right time. So I'm not trying to force anything, I'm not trying to rush anything. But for me, I can't do surface-based conversation. I can't do the whole texting. How was your day?

What'd you get up to? It's like, you're not really getting to know me. I can't do this. I can't engage. And so I quickly get, I get lost in a very, well, I just lose interest very quickly. Cause I'm like, this is, I can't, I can't do this. So part of me is like, do I want to try and really give it a go? Or do I want to just step back and just focus on meeting someone organically? Because that's what I want. I want someone that sees me for who I am. This is me. This is what you get.

like me or hate me, you know, sort of thing. I think also at the end of the day, it's very important to remember, especially as you're older as a single parent and you've been through a lot more, you're carrying a lot more emotional baggage, you're dealing with hundreds, if not thousands, of other people that are also carrying all this emotional baggage. So it's like one big, one big place with all these wounded, hurt people trying to find someone that's gonna make them happier. And that's the problem. So many people are just looking for someone to make them happy. You need to make yourself happy first. Focus on making yourself happy, not focusing on someone to make you happy. And again, this is something I speak a lot on my podcast. Like people go into dating, not knowing what they want. They just know, I want a partner. So let's just hope for the best. And then they go through this same toxic dating cycle where they keep breaking up the same way because you're doing the same thing. You have a different person, but you're going into these different relationships doing the exact same things. Nothing's changing. And that's the whole idea. And that is why, and what I gain, what I talk about a lot, why it's so important to let go of this emotional baggage, to let go of this hurt, because you're unconsciously taking it into all these new relationships. You're going in guarded. You're going in not trusting. You're not opening up fully. So you're not being authentic. They're not seeing the true you because you're scared to open up. You might be comparing them to your exes, all these different little things that come into play. And it's not necessarily that the apps are bad, it's the people on them that are carrying all this and using it to judge all these people that they're talking to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:27)

Do you think some of them are treating the app space or the whole scene like a band-aid?

Leanne Hutchinson (34:36)

100%, 100%. I see quite often, and I've seen some posts on Facebook and I've seen people talk to me about this saying, like there's people that have come to me, they're not even broken up yet. And they're they're focused on, I don't think I'm gonna find someone else. And I'm like, let me just stop you right there. That is not your focus right now. First of all, you will find someone else, but second of all, your focus needs to be getting through this breakup.

Will or will someone date me? You know what I was trying to say. But yes, and I saw something a couple of months ago, someone posted in this group on Facebook. It was like a 20-year relationship. And she's like, I don't want to wait 12 months or however long it is until the divorce is finalised, so I start dating again. I want to start dating now. What should I do? And I'm thinking, you've just come out of a 20-year relationship and you can't wait till your divorce is finalised to start dating. You need to do it now.

That's telling me she's not dating because she wants to find someone. She's dating because she doesn't; she's scared to be on her own. She's scared to do life on her own. She's scared to deal with everything. And that's quite often you see these rebound relationships. They're the people that are not dealing with anything. Let's just use this to fix me. Let's just use this to make me feel better. Let's just use this to show that, see, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm fine. This person likes me. It is a massive band-aid for a lot of people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:03)

It can even be an ego boost, but yeah, I've seen both angles to it because sometimes I met people that were so amazing. thought, Wow, why is this person even talking to me? And that says plenty about my insecurity. But then those people ended up showing me, okay, what do I need to become? And I hope that more people can ask themselves, okay, what do I need to become instead of just who do I need to find? Do you think so?

Leanne Hutchinson (36:05)

100 %! Yep.

Yeah, and I think a lot of people, I think a lot of people putting their focus on, okay, this person's talking to me. I'm seeing a lot of red flags. I'm not sure, but they seem okay, so it must be all right. They just keep lowering their standards, and they're selling in relationships that they know are not healthy because they just think this must be the person because they got some sort of okay banter going, they've got some sort of okay conversation going. But there's so much more to building a relationship than having an okay conversation.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:11)

Comment on the banter part. I think part of the problem, you identified it earlier on the apps, you're lucky to get more than how was your weekend. The moment someone can hold a conversation, it feels like a miracle.

Leanne Hutchinson (37:23)

Yeah, well that's true too and I think that's when people think well this must be the one, this must be the person and then they meet up in real life it's like ⁓ I don't like this, all these red flags are happening or they don't have this or they can't do this and you know realistically it's not the kind of person that you're wanting but you've got a good conversation so it must be right, it must be okay so people overlook all these things they convince themselves must be the right person but instead of just going

They're a nice person, but they're not my type. It is okay to do that. And I think we need to normalise that more often. You can have a nice conversation with someone, but it doesn't mean they're going to be your perfect match.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:04)

Yes. And I'm curious if you recommend to meet earlier instead of just chatting online for a week or months without actually testing that out.

Leanne Hutchinson (38:16)

Yeah, I think that comes down to personal preference, and also when you're single-parenting, that comes down to time a lot as well. I know that's a big issue working out when you got a free weekend and stuff like that. So that's, you know, that is, it's all preference and how well you've spoken. For me I'm a big believer in having a good phone conversation. I personally will not meet anybody unless we've spoken on the phone. And I've actually chatted to people not recently, but a while ago. And he said to me, well, I won't meet somebody. No, I won't speak to somebody on the phone until we've actually met up in person. And I said, well, sorry, I do it the other way around. I want to speak to you on the phone first to make sure you're genuine, make sure we can hold up a good conversation before I actually meet you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:02)

Do you know why that person does it the opposite way?

Leanne Hutchinson (39:04)

No, that died off pretty quickly. But no, I thought that was very interesting. But you do see it a lot. People are just not confident to speak on the phone. People don't feel comfortable to do it. And so they just avoid it. People are happy just to do the endless back-and-forth messaging. But for me, again, I find that surf space, you're not actually getting to know someone because when you're doing the constant back and forth messaging, it's all just the, was your day? What'd you get up to? What are you doing this weekend? Yeah, cut and paste, whatever.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:31)

praises.

Leanne Hutchinson (39:35)

Let's see how that lands. And you're not getting to know someone. I don't think, one of the biggest things I always talk about is there's no rush. You don't have to rush anything. If you're just meeting someone or start chatting with someone, or the sun's going good, or let's meet up tomorrow night, you don't have to rush anything. There's no time limit. Just because we're older or we're single parents doesn't mean you've got to handle the dating world much quicker.

I think it's actually smarter to do it a lot slower, so you actually know for sure what you're getting into because you've got more to lose.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:09)

Run it.

Right, because you have a family, because you're more than yourself.

Leanne Hutchinson (40:14)

You've got your kid, don't want to have to date someone and drag this person into your world, and then introduce them to your kid, and all of a sudden, you might move in together, and you're like, oh, this isn't what I wanted. Let's break up again. Then you got to move. Your kids are being impacted again. It's like you've already been to a big breakup, whether it's your divorce or defacto breakdown, relationship breakdown. That in itself is a huge deal. You don't want to have to go through something like that again, unless you don't have to. Now I'm not saying that you can completely avoid going through a breakup. That's just impossible. No one can avoid that. But you can be a lot more cautious and a lot more careful the way you approach it when you're not rushing things, when you're going in there with realistic expectations. And because when you're still caught up from the breakup and you're going into the dating world, that's when you take it so personally. Why'd they leave? And you give those people trying to force them to come back or start texting them all the time, and going past their house and stalking them. It's like, what are you doing? Because it happens, these things happen a lot. Because if they were comfortable in themselves and they were confident in where they're at in life, they wouldn't feel the need to chase anybody. And that again, all comes down to the same thing about letting go of all these emotions and that hurt and that anger from the breakup.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:15)

Gosh.

Leanne Hutchinson (41:34)

before you go into the dating world because even you're carrying all this, especially as a single parent, you're carrying all that hurt from that your ex-husband or your ex-wife or whoever else and you're going into the dating world, you're taking all that with you and quite often you're going to dump it onto this new person without even realizing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:50)

Do you see people sometimes even holding onto the baggage of the dating experiences after a long-term relationship?

Leanne Hutchinson (41:59)

100

% and you see it often like that first relationship breakup after a divorce is always one of the hardest and people don't understand why and you see it all the time because when you've come out of a divorce or break up with your kids other parent and all of a sudden someone starts giving you attention you're like wow this is what I never got this is what I was needing when I was married this is what I'm after yes hallelujah and then all of a sudden

Two or three months down the track, and it's over, and you're like, what just happened? Because you overlooked everything else. There's all these red flags that were happening, but you overlooked because you just saw that they were giving you some attention that you needed. They were giving you what you needed at the time. They weren't your perfect match. They weren't your ideal partner. They were giving you that attention that you're craving that you never got in that relationship with your ex-husband or your ex-wife or whoever else it was. And all of a sudden, you're getting it.

Yes, this is it. So that's why you feel so much, you feel, you get so more let down and so more, you feel much more, that's not the right way to phrase it. You feel hurt so much more because you had so much, your expectations of this was so high. You've gone in thinking, yes, this is the person. This is what I didn't get in my marriage or my relationship. I've now got it here. Then all of a sudden, boom, it's all died off.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:22)

wondering if you've seen people putting even more characteristics on a pedestal. It's partly the attention. I think also a lot of people come out of a long-term relationship thinking, why couldn't this person have been more ambitious like I am or, or whatever it might be or been more tidy. And frankly, that sounds small, but if things get really messy, whatever it might be, why couldn't they have, and then

You get out there and for days, weeks, or months, you see someone who ticks some of the boxes, even though there are red flags in other spaces. And it's like they are filling a gap because just like the process of getting on your feet and functioning as a single parent instead of a two-person parenting situation, just like that.

There's, do you think there's an element of this person is dragging me up back off the cliff I'm dangling down. I'm really concerned that maybe it seems like they're filling gaps, something like that.

Leanne Hutchinson (44:36)

I don't know if enough people do look at it like that. But I feel like that's just it. They see a few good things about this person and they overlook everything else because there's a few good things. Yeah, and I think that's the problem. Everything is, all this other stuff gets overlooked because they're seeing a few good things. And I see it all the time. I've met this person, they're lovely, they're this and that, but they do this, this, this, this, and this.

I'm like, you just pointed out all these things you don't like. So why are you ignoring that for these few small good things? And the thing is, this is also a big problem when people go into relationships without actually properly getting to know somebody. This is why it's so important to get to know this person, know who they are. And this also relates to a podcast episode of mine that just came out yesterday, actually, on Blending Families and the importance of knowing where you both stand before actually moving in together.

You can't just say, this is going great, let's live together. You need to know that you're both on the same page. You need to know that you both have the same expectations with the future of your relationship, with how you are around your kids, with finances, with the housework, with everything. Because quite often you see it, everything's going well, the relationship is great. Next minute you're living together, oh, but they're not helping out with finances. Oh, but they're not helping out with the kids. Oh, but they're not helping out with this. But did you discuss it beforehand? Did you know what you were getting into?

Same thing with relationships. You can't just say, but they're not clean. But they're not helping with this. But then, did you know that beforehand? Did you make an effort to get to know them? Because you can't change someone. This is who they are. If you don't like who they are, then they're not your match.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:16)

You need to know before getting into something what's going to be involved. And it's the details. I, I want to make myself a headline by referencing the conservative that actually made some really good points of checking. Does someone have a default in their everyday life of an open home policy as in friends can pop over whenever they want. We are like seventh heaven. Anyone can.

Rock up, or is it a closed home of this is our sanctuary, our space. We are going to keep it quiet and enclosed. Don't bring people into that so much. Or what are you going to do for Christmas? There are, there are so many little details that people don't think of, but even, me know if you agree. has to be beyond the labels of.

I want a family or I do, I don't want children or anything like that because in my experience, someone basically assumed that having a family equals literally be in a quiet house away from everything in the suburbs and revolve around that and just don't do so much else. And it's, I think there's too much assumption there. So you have to ask, do you agree? It's about asking what's this going to look like?

Leanne Hutchinson (47:35)

You just nailed it on the head, then, with the word assumption. That's the problem. People assuming, we can't assume. You've got to actually ask the question. It's just like another thing that really, really bugs me when I see this all the time on Facebook. And I'm no doubt that you would have seen as well. When people get on there and say, My partner's doing this or this has happened. I don't know what to think, or I don't know what to do, or I don't speak to your partner. This is your partner. Why are you not asking them this question?

It just blows me away. It's like, my husband just said this or my wife did this. It's like, if that is your husband or wife, why are you asking Facebook and not them?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:14)

Is that what you see a lot? People asking Facebook, asking you, asking anyone else because they don't want the direct conversation.

Leanne Hutchinson (48:21)

They don't have that communication

or I don't know how they're going to react or don't know how they're going to respond. Well, that's your partner. And the thing is, if they're not going to respond in a healthy way, then why are you with this person? Because realistically, you want a partner where you can talk to about anything. If you're having problems in the relationship, if you're unsure of anything, you need to be able to go to them and say, Hey, what's actually happening? I don't, I'm not sure, I'm feeling a loss, or I'm confused, or you need to be able to have that conversation with them.

And if you're not comfortable to talk to your own partner, then that's a massive red flag in your relationship.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:53)

going to ask that if you can't have the conversation, does that say plenty in itself?

Leanne Hutchinson (48:58)

100 % because no relationship is ever gonna last if there's no communication. Communication is necessary. Like that is the biggest thing to make any form of relationship work, even if it's a friendship or a work relationship, anything.

Because what you just said, assume, people assume way too much. Like what we said at the beginning with that post on Facebook yesterday and everything else. People jumped down my throat, assuming things about me. It was like, That's not what I asked. I asked a simple question. People are assuming, and when they're assuming, they're thinking worst-case scenario instead of actually going to the source of the problem, saying, Hey, I heard this or I saw this. Can you explain that or what's going on?

And if you're not confident to speak to your partner, then what's happening here? Why are you not comfortable to speak to your own partner?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:45)

Yes.

And the assuming, let's go back to social media for a moment. I'm fascinated by how this has been coming up so much. I think that's a really big issue. Social media, it's, look, it does bring people together. We found each other on social media. I've stayed connected with some people from years ago, and they are amazing, and it's great to keep connected. But in terms of what we expect for our lives, for our relationships, for other things,

It seems like we both believe that people are expecting an ideal or an image or something that's not the reality of things. I had someone just a couple of months ago telling me, You're doing so great and you're so successful and sure, I'm not going to put the worst of everything on social media. Come on. So people just assume everything.

Leanne Hutchinson (50:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, I remember years ago, like I think when I first broke up with my daughter's father, my sister made a comment to me saying, Oh, but I thought you were fine because you didn't put anything other, you didn't put anything different on Facebook. I'm like, of course I didn't. I'm not gonna put up and say I was, up in tears this morning, and I was lying in a ball. Of course I'm not gonna put that on Facebook. But some people do, but like look at TikTok these days. People are doing that. People are taking.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:04)

Wow.

Leanne Hutchinson (51:19)

You know, you've taken that for advantage, but yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:23)

they putting the worst of their day on TikTok?

Leanne Hutchinson (51:25)

I think it is becoming a trend where especially more so on TikTok where you're seeing people, know, videos of them crying of themselves and showing them at their lowest and stuff and what they've been through. like, you know, that's, I'm sorry you've been through that, and that's terrible and that's horrible. I'm glad you're educating people, but don't sit there and dwell on it. Let's, and this is one thing I see, and I see a lot of people in my line of work do this. They're, ⁓ this is how, like they're constantly dwelling on negative things that's happened. like,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:36)

wow.

Leanne Hutchinson (51:54)

But that's just creating more gender hate. That's just creating more, see, this is why I went through that. This is why that happened. It's like, let's change the angle and make it more, okay, that's happened, but let's make you a stronger person so you don't go through that again.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:08)

And we both have personal brands that will project some sort of angle online. So it's worth advising whoever is listening, whether you have a commercial personal brand or you're just connecting with the internet in some way. It's about the what now. And I think that the world wants some sort of authenticity in this age of AI and filtered fakes, all of that.

We know that deep down, most of us know that social media feels so fake that we crave something real on social, but you don't have to; you don't have to give people every single second of your reality on social media. You really don't. And a publicist said on the show a while ago that your customers aren't paying you to show them your entire life. And even

I saw a really old video of Jessica Simpson and Nick from a million years ago. And they said that although the cameras for their reality show would arrive when they were waking up, they admitted on a talk show that Jessica Simpson would be not really one you'd want to talk to for an hour after waking up. So they would wait until she was ready. Or if they really were just feeling grumpy and needed a moment, they'd go to a movie. Point being,

Leanne Hutchinson (53:10)

Yep, it's shy. Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:36)

even the most exposed people who share so much of themselves, there's always something you're not, there's always something that you're not seeing and we need to, we need to edit people, edit. Do you think so?

Leanne Hutchinson (53:41)

not authentic. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's just it. And again, going back to social media, it's made the world lose its authenticity. Like, take for example, I had someone just DM me, I think it was last night. Last night they DM'd me in the conversation. I cut the conversation off this morning, because they DMed me and I thought it was a potential client, someone interested in my work, because I commented on my post and started talking about it, wanting some advice. I'm like, okay, I gave them a voice message, gave them some support and help that they might have needed. And then after a few conversations, they're plugging their business onto me. And they're trying to say, Oh, would you want to get on and have a free chat there? So they're trying to sell a free chat to me, trying to get me on. I'm like, do you know what? I respect that you're selling your business, but I don't like the way you've approached this. Because I also said in the light and lead up to this, where it went is that you know, I'm very passionate about what I do. And I'm very passionate about the people that align with me, and know what I do and like what I do will come to me. And that was before I knew what he even did. And so for the way he just kind of approached me, like he was wanting to know about my work and wanting to know something about co-parenting, like it was a topic on co-parenting. So here I am thinking he's a single dad wanting some advice about his ex. And then he just twisted it, saying, I can get you more clients. I can get you this. Like, I don't like the way that landed. I mean, I respect that you're trying to get business, but this just goes back to my point of being authentic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:04)

Was he not?

Leanne Hutchinson (55:15)

You know, and that's what I said to him. Don't, there was nothing authentic. I don't like the way you approach me. If you just come to me from a different angle, just being straight up honest and say, Hey, I can get you more clients. This is what I do. Would you be interested? I probably would have said no, but I would have been more respectful of the way he approached it. But just to come in at me and pretend like you're fake interested in what I do, talking about co-parenting, asking questions about it. So I'm giving him voice messages, thinking, okay, this guy needs some support. He needs some help.

No, no, he just wanted more business, and this is what I'm getting at. Just be authentic. Just be you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:50)

Yes, yes. You need to, you need to be honest about your intentions with something. And I've been following a few amazing role models where I'm saying, look, I don't feel like now is the right time. Often some people interpret that as a no, some will understand it's really do follow and adore what you're doing, but pretty soon, at the right time, I'll get involved with this, but then there will be others who are

Leanne Hutchinson (55:56)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:20)

Just selling something, and do you think that people don't know how to sell sensibly these days, when everybody is selling something?

Leanne Hutchinson (56:27)

I think so. Like, that's probably the hardest part of running a business, really. You know, you can be so passionate about what you do, but it's the selling part can be the hardest, the approach. But I've always been someone that comes from an angle of I've never forced anything onto anyone. For me, all of my clients have come to me. I've because for me, I don't like it when people come and force things on me. So I'm not going to be someone that does that to somebody else. ⁓

But it is a tricky thing. Especially in this day and age, people want more bookings. You know, again, social media, you see all these constant people, six-figure months, all these kinds of things. And people are like, I'm doing something wrong. I should be getting more clients. I should be getting more. I should be doing this. I should be doing that. People are constantly comparing, sorry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:12)

I can hear

the hype and the panic of how you're even vocalising that.

Leanne Hutchinson (57:21)

But see, it doesn't bother me. I'm happy to focus on me and my work and what I do, but you see it a lot. everything, there's so many business coaches and Instagram experts at six, that's what they're focused on. Get six-figure months. And so I feel like that has taken away the approach of when it comes to selling, people more like, let's just sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. It's like, how about you just focus on being real? Just focus on being you.

And I know it's hard because being you doesn't necessarily sell, but I also am a big believer that when you're being authentically you, you will find your right people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:01)

You will need to project your value and what you provide in a way that shows people your real you, because I could very clearly see from the get-go. I think it was, so your brand is called, what's your brand name? Yes. Wanted to make sure I get to that. Right. Life after plus one. There's no confusion about what you're about. So that was, that was something that told people, okay,

Leanne Hutchinson (58:06)

Yeah.

who I have to plus one.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:31)

You clearly have life experience, and this is what you're about. But I think the grey area is when people have a presence online, but you wonder what they do? And some people approached me and they sort of seemed a bit keen to do something, but then it turned out to be your classic MLM with just random consumer products to wait for their own. That's not my thing.

Leanne Hutchinson (58:55)

Yep.

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:58)

So you need to just know what someone is about.

Leanne Hutchinson (59:01)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. But you know, like I just said, I don't like to force things. It's not what I do. And I'm also respectful of being a single parent. Finances is not your top priority. Well, it's not something that people can just go splashing money around on. So I'm totally respectful of that. I understand that. And that's the time where you do need to be more cautious of money. So I'm not gonna force myself on anyone because...

I know what it was like when I was a single parent. Like I said earlier, I was struggling to put food on the table. I just didn't know how I was going to make ends meet. So I can't say here you need my services, but don't worry about eating for the week. You know, so I've got to be realistic with my with my niche as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:42)

You understand your audience and their priorities, definitely.

Leanne Hutchinson (59:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:49)

So overall, it looks like we've ended up identifying that whether it's dating or finding the next step after a split or even how we relate to anyone online, the common thread here is about being real about who we are now and who we are going to be.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:00:09)

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Don't let social media turn you into somebody else. Don't feel like you need to compete or compare. And this is the biggest thing that I always focus on in my work. Just focus on being better than who you were. And it was funny, I just dropped my daughter off at school, dropped her off this morning, and I'm driving home. like, I need to set some goals. I need to start setting some more goals. Because I'm very big on doing that. I can, done that, yep, done that. And it gives you something to look forward to. And when you're doing goal, when you're having goals and having something to tick off.

You know that you're actually achieving stuff, and you know that you're actually doing better than what you did last month or the month before, and that's the point. Focus on doing better than you. Focus on doing better than what you did last month or last year. Don't worry about what Jane's doing or what Tom's doing, or stop comparing yourself to anyone on social media. Just stay in your lane.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:01)

Stay in your lane. Stay in your lane for sure. And the one thing I like to do at the end of these conversations is always invite the opportunity for three nearly universal lessons or actions that people can take, because you're focusing on life after plus one, people are going to transition into any sort of next stage.

And that's always going to be shifting into an unknown, shifting into a brave step. I'm wondering what three things someone should be doing in their next chapter?

Leanne Hutchinson (1:01:36)

Three things that I would suggest to focus on, just off the top of my head quickly. Your confidence is a huge thing. And I say all the time, you can have two people doing the exact same things, but you can have someone up here and you can have someone down here because they've had the confidence to put themselves out more. Your confidence plays a huge role in every part of your life. So get your confidence back up, just learn to accept reality. know, hardships are not something, as I said earlier, to tell you that you're an idiot, you messed up. Hardships are just a lesson that you can learn from. So look at the lesson in what you've been through and use it to take you up to the next level. Third one, ⁓ goodness, confidence lesson.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:29)

Reality.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:02:32)

Just stay in your lane. Stay in lane. Focus on you, especially when you're co-parenting, because it's easy when you're co-parenting to get into arguments with your ex, fighting with them, trying to prove a point, wanting an apology, wanting an explanation, wanting them to see your point of view. It's never going to happen. Stay in your lane. Focus on you. Focus on how you show up as a mom or a dad, and focus on how you show up for your kids. That's it. Confidence. Stay in your lane.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:34)

In your lane, as in focus on you.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:03:03)

I can't remember what I said in the second one. Anyway.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:03)

and you.

Okay. It was to look and behave with confidence, and you're welcome to pop on another time to explore confidence as a whole thing in itself. I feel like that's crucial. confidence and stay. And the next one was reality. Accept your current situation or reality without staying in it. Learn from it without letting it reflect on you. Don't let it shame you, but just see this is what there is.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:03:27)

LONG LESSON

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:37)

And then the other one was to be in your lane and focus on you, and remember that you can change yourself more than you can change other people.

Leanne, thanks for the wisdom.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:03:50)

Thanks for having me.

Show Notes ## Episode title From Newsroom Survival to Nervous-System Sovereignty: Journalist-Turned-Coach Clara Ritger

## Episode description

Documentary filmmaker and former Capitol Hill journalist Clara Ritger pulls back the curtain on U.S. media grind culture—$32k starter salaries, 24/7 Slack pings, and "always urgent" news cycles—while navigating a six-year health spiral after a ruptured appendix. We trace how chronic stress and unprocessed trauma can manifest physically, why "wellness rooms" aren't a fix, and how Clara rebuilt with boundaries, travel, and meditation. She's now a trauma-informed coach and meditation teacher sharing free, practical tools (including a DIY solo-retreat guide) so high performers can regulate, not just "cope."

> Note: Personal experiences and opinions only; this episode is not medical advice.

## Guest

**Clara Ritger — Trauma-Informed Coach & Meditation Teacher (ex-journalist/filmmaker)**

* Began as a Hill reporter in Washington, D.C. (2013; ACA rollout coverage), then a decade in documentary/news (NBC News, Wall Street Journal), NYC-based with nationwide shoots.

* Freelance years marked by high stress, low predictability, and health crises following a 2016 appendiceal rupture and major abdominal surgery.

* Certified trauma-informed coach and meditation teacher; writes the healing/travel newsletter **Adventure to Awaken**.

## Host

**Melanie Suzanne Wilson** — Speaker, mentor, and host of The Motivate Collective Podcast.

## Chapters (timestamps)

* **00:00** Welcome & Clara's origin story in U.S. media

* **00:24** Hill reporting during the ACA rollout; under-resourced newsrooms

* **02:45** 24/7 news → social algorithms: speed > depth

* **04:17** Survival mode: freelancing, "always on," and Slack at 7 am

* **06:22** Culture snapshot: obits on standby & 45-minute panic window

* **06:36** Money talk: $32k in D.C.; optics vs. affordability

* **09:30** 2016 appendix rupture → years of pain, procedures & masking at work

* **11:49** Freelance fear of asking for accommodations; grief traded for gigs

* **13:52** The hidden costs of "showing up" while shut down

* **17:07** Body keeps the score: chronic stress → physical breakdown

* **20:58** Two forces: economic pressure & purpose-driven overwork

* **24:19** Breaking point: "I won't make it to retirement" → burn it down & leave NYC

* **26:01** "We can see it, but it doesn't fit any post-op pattern" → talk of exploratory surgery

* **27:54** U.S. medical bills as a freelancer; denied colonoscopy claim

* **30:11** Trauma, cPTSD & constant fight/flight; why certain jobs "fit" dysregulation

* **33:31** Comfort zone = discomfort; resetting the nervous system set-point

* **36:47** Work cultures that reward panic; evaluating your environment

* **38:02** "Save your life before it's too late": incremental change vs. starting over

* **40:12** What regulation is (and isn't); ecosystems, KPIs, and humanity

* **43:01** Wellness theater vs. real supports; meditation as a leverage tool

* **46:21** "Wellness rooms," calendars, and the gap between policy & practice

* **48:46** Making wellness a way of life, not a calendar block

* **50:29** Therapy access & costs; EQ as professional upskilling

* **53:52** Communities for prevention & shared wisdom

* **54:46** Clara's 3 actionable tips (walk, meditate, solo retreat guide)

* **58:35** Closing gratitude

## Key takeaways

* **The newsroom body burden:** "Always urgent" cultures keep nervous systems stuck in fight/flight; performance rises short-term while repair shuts down.

* **Hidden costs of coping:** Masking pain, skipping grief, and deferring boundaries often surface as physical symptoms later.

* **Dysregulation can look like competence:** People with cPTSD may excel in crises, then unconsciously choose crisis-rich careers.

* **Regulation ≠ constant calm:** It's the ability to shift **in and out** of stress—prioritising, pausing, then re-engaging.

* **Policy vs. practice:** Wellness rooms and yoga stipends don't help if calendars and expectations never allow use.

* **Leverage practices:** Short walks, daily meditation, and peer communities build clarity, boundaries, and sustainable pace.

* **Small changes early beat total reset:** Adjust roles/environments before everything collapses.

## Memorable quotes

* "**You don't see the steps that lead up to crisis—you only see the diagnosis.**" — Clara

* "**My comfort zone had become discomfort.**" — Clara

* "**A regulated nervous system isn't peaceful—it's adaptable.**" — Clara

* "**Save your life before it's too late.**" — Clara

## Resources & mentions (as discussed)

* **AdventureToAwaken.com** — Clara's newsletter; includes a free **Solo Retreat Guide** (5-day, self-guided; meditations, gentle yoga, recipes).

* Meditation (Clara teaches instinctive meditation; social: **@ClaraRitger**).

* Concepts: cPTSD, "body keeps the score," nervous-system regulation, workplace boundaries.

## Actionable tips (from Clara)

1. **Five-minute walk break:** When urgency spikes, leave the room, walk outside, reset—then return with clarity.

2. **Learn to meditate:** 20 minutes daily can improve prioritisation, boundaries, and presence long after the session.

3. **Try a DIY retreat:** Use Clara's free Solo Retreat Guide to create a restorative day or weekend without expensive travel.

## Disclaimers

* This episode shares personal experiences and opinions. It is **not medical advice**. For diagnosis or treatment, consult a qualified professional.

## Call to action

* **Follow/subscribe** on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

* **Share** with someone navigating burnout or newsroom-style urgency.

* Drop a review with your question for **Part 2** with Clara.

## Credits

* **Host:** Melanie Suzanne Wilson

* **Guest:** Clara Ritger

* **Producer:** The Motivate Collective

* **Music/Editing:** The Motivate Collective Team

## Episode tags

#burnout #journalism #documentary #nervoussystem #traumainformed #meditation #cPTSD #workplacewellbeing #boundaries #selfregulation #DIYretreat #wellnessatwork

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Clara, welcome to the podcast. It's a privilege to have you on the show.

Clara Ritger (00:05)

Thank you so much for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:08)

You have quite a story, and I'm really excited for everybody to hear about your journey. Let's start with sharing your experience working in media in America.

Clara Ritger (00:24)

Yeah, well, it's probably as stressful as you imagine it to be. I graduated college and started working as a journalist on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC. This was in 2013, so this was during the Obama presidency, but during the rollout of the Affordable Care Act and I was assigned to that story, which wound up being like the AP news story of the year because of how disastrous that rollout was. So I was covering like the basically, the collapse of the health exchange marketplaces and just how much of a mess it was. And so many late nights, constantly on my phone, nights and weekends. ⁓ After about a year of that, I thought I can't do this anymore and switch to documentary film and spent about a decade working in documentary film, doing some corporate work, but also news media work. So pieces for NBC News, the Wall Street Journal and working out of New York City, but travelling really all over the country to cover stories that were both breaking news and also more long-form stories. And yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that is probably underappreciated by the general public is how hard journalists are working and how underpaid we are. So a lot of people really look at journalists as people who maybe have an agenda. And I always laugh at that because I had no time to think about, like, having an agenda, like I'm just trying to cover a story. And of course, everyone comes in with their own like biases and things, right? But in many ways, I think, you know, think journalists are really under resourced and under supported from a mental health perspective, a physical health perspective, a financial health perspective, and, yeah, in some ways I think that that's why you get what you get when it comes to the storytelling and the quality of it because people are just trying to meet this 24 seven hunger for information in this, what was like a news, a television news cycle, but that turned into a social media algorithm. Anyway, that's the brief overview.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:03)

Yes. Okay.

There's a lot to unpack there. And I think it's important to look at all of this. So firstly, the juggle. I think it's actually really crucial. We can do something very unusual here, which is we can look at the life of a journalist in the spaces that are known for their politics without needing to actually comment on the politics of it. Because what I'm getting from your story is that it doesn't matter which politician someone prefers when they are working in media. It sounds like there's a juggle and a survival mode, perhaps, of the burnout, the you're not getting rich being a journalist by the sounds. So it sounds like you're just trying to cope and get by.

And I can imagine a lot of the world would be wondering what it's like to work as a journalist in the US at any point. And I hope you might have heard about what parts of your experience would still be happening now.

Clara Ritger (04:17)

Sure, yeah, and so in fairness, I've been out of it for, I guess, about three, four years now. Was the last time, yeah, only a few, that's true. But you're absolutely right. I was absolutely in survival mode when I was on projects for news media organisations.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:27)

Really few.

Clara Ritger (04:43)

And I say it that way because once I switched into documentary film, I did sort of have periods where I would be doing more corporate stuff for more original work that was maybe at a slightly slower pace. But then I had periods where, now, three, four, six months at a time, I was working solely for television, and that was crazy. Yeah, you're constantly in a state of fight or flight. And I don't know that there is a way to work with news media organisations and not be in that state in your body because of the demands of the job of constantly needing to be responding to breaking news. And even if you're not covering breaking news, it's the fact that that even exists in that environment that puts sort of everybody on this sense of everything is urgent and needs to be dealt with immediately. I remember one morning getting a call

And I wasn't even supposed to start work for another like 30 minutes. And I got a call asking what was wrong with me. And I said, What do you mean? I was like, nothing's wrong. And they said, Well, you haven't responded to this Slack notification. And I didn't have Slack on my phone because I wasn't a full-time employee. I was a contract employee. And so I was like, and I also wasn't even assigned to breaking news, but they were like looking to just have me jump in on something. And I was like, I was accessible on my phone all morning, not Slack, but also I wasn't on the clock. Like what is going on? And when I finally, I was working on obituaries at the time and somebody received a diagnosis. And so they wanted the obituary prepped like immediately.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:22)

What was happening?

Clara Ritger (06:36)

Even though, like, a diagnosis isn't somebody dying. Like when you talk about it, it actually sounds really crazy, but 45 minutes had passed in between when that Slack was sent and when I received a phone call asking what was wrong with me. And that hopefully conveys like the state of expectations and like people's nervous systems in the newsroom. What I can also say, as far as like living conditions, right, is when I first started my career, I was in Washington DC, it was 2013. I was making $32,000 a year and $32,000 a year in Washington DC meant that I could barely afford to buy groceries. I was eating trail mix for lunch and carrots that I made myself from like bulk buying these things just to have enough money to like be able to go to these like, networking events I needed to go to to do source building and like be able to buy a drink and not be like embarrassed in front of sources. Like I just, couldn't even, I could barely pay my bills on the money I was making. And granted that was the first job, but I think that's sort of like, that's where you start, and you only work up from like that low, right? And so people, I think, are pretty chronically underpaid across the industry, until, of course, you get to the like news anchor on television role, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:02)

Yes. So I looked it up, and for perspective, sounds like Australian, that would be about 48,000. And we don't need the tiny details of whether that was before or after a tax, but it feels like, especially with how it's before tax. You are getting, pardon me. So you are getting 48,000 Australian or 32 American before tax.

Clara Ritger (08:17)

That was before tax.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:33)

And it's hard enough, keep in mind, it's hard enough when someone is working an ordinary job and might just go home at the end of the day, and it's fine to just eat some pasta, whatever cheap food, when living on not much, but you were working in media where you were expected to present yourself a certain way. especially, this is not a feminist statement here. It's just the fact.

Women are expected to wear particular clothes and look a particular way when they are public-facing. And on top of that, you're saying you had to buy drinks, and a drink might feel like not a big deal, but when you're on a very low pay, it sounds like you are expected to live a part of a glamorous life when you were earning barely enough to get by.

Clara Ritger (09:30)

Yes, that's absolutely it. was, and I mean, look, I think that I became over time, like the master of putting up an appearance. In 2016, three years later, I was 24 years old, and my appendix ruptured, and I was in the hospital. They took it out laparoscopically, which means like just a very small incision.

They sent me home even though I was telling them I wasn't feeling well. And 10 days later, I was back in the hospital with multiple areas of abscess encasing my organs. And they ended up having to cut and reconnect my intestines as part of like a much bigger open abdominal surgery. And for six years after that event, I was in and out of hospitals and doctors' offices with inexplicable pain.

They would run tests, they would even do procedures. I even had follow-up surgeries trying to address what ultimately was, I just never fully healed from that initial event. But a lot of people in my life didn't know that I was going through that. Jobs didn't know I was going through that. There were definitely jobs that I was on that I probably needed accommodations for, given my health, but I didn't ask for them. I didn't make it known. And I think that, like, being able to put up this appearance of everything being fine, like came from in journalism, you're supposed to look and present yourself a certain way, even if everything inside of you is crumbling.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:13)

Absolutely. Just, this is one of those moments where, as a podcast interviewer, I am focusing so much on your experience when, on the inside, I'm thinking that all sounds like what I have dealt with so many times. Okay. Where to begin from here? So you did not feel comfortable or allowed to share with some of your employers that you were going through these health journeys.

Clara Ritger (11:49)

Definitely, definitely, because my job does involve a physical element and because eventually I was freelancing, I was like a contract employee. I think I was concerned that I would get passed over for opportunities if I asked for too much. And I think that a lot of people can relate to this, right? There's a lot of people all around the world who are struggling with chronic illness or disability or you name it. I mean, it could even just be like a death in the family, grief. I actually didn't go to my grandfather's funeral when he passed away because I had just gotten a huge opportunity to do a series for the Wall Street Journal. And I was worried that if I asked for the time off, they would let me go from the position and hire somebody else because I, as a freelancer, I wasn't really entitled to that kind of time off. So I think that there are people who can relate to these experiences, right? I mean, it could even just be a miscarriage, and you're like, well, who am I to ask for a grief time for a miscarriage, right? You name it. We are all, we are all human and yet we are afraid of being our full human selves in workplaces and our families and society because we've been taught that like it's too much or that you know we aren't deserving of boundaries or this scarcity mindset and and maybe the scarcity mindset is real you know like you know I we live in capitalist societies that prioritize output over the person over the human body the human soul.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:43)

I would love to share with you a couple of things to say just how universal or relatable this is. And okay, great. I just feel like you have so many stories, and I don't want to be that person who says, But check out my story. But no, what you described, you were working even when someone had died. I never forgot the moment around a decade ago.

Clara Ritger (13:52)

Please.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:13)

When there was a funeral for a great-grandparent and I stayed at… I stayed in my city instead of travelling to go to that. And I don't think it was for any one reason. It wasn't only because an event was on, but around the time when people were going to that funeral, I was going to a fashion show and doing a selfie with the designer, Carla Zampatti. And socially, I was so shut down and couldn't hold a conversation. And I feel like I didn't allow space to just be a human. So I just totally relate to that feeling of you have to be present. You have to show up. And I, I think I was really shamed a couple of years ago when some people wanted to keep

People wanted me to keep showing up for events when I had family responsibilities that I needed to do. And it was so crushing knowing that people who said, we'll look after you, were saying, hang on, you picked looking after your family over showing up to this event. I, I can't even wrap my head around it. So that happens. And you were, you were a journalist. It's.

I can imagine you see that happening to a lot of other people in journalism and other public-facing jobs, of having to choose?

Clara Ritger (15:46)

I don't know that I saw it, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there, right? That's by design, to not see it, to not see what people are actually going through and having to choose. I should say you're right that a lot of the choices, when I look back on like situations or choices that I've made in my life, it is never just one thing. And I think on top of the issue, you know, related to my grandfather's funeral, like on top of the issue that I was new and freelance on this job, I was going through a really challenging time with my family, my immediate family. And I would have to obviously spend that time with them and see them. And there was a lot of hurt around that as well. And so I think it was those two things together that it was just like, I'm not even gonna ask, don't even think I can, I can't go, I just won't be there. But all those feelings around my grandfather's death and my family and the stress of this new job, even if I'm not telling my coworkers about it or even my friends about it, it doesn't mean that that's not there, that that isn't something I'm carrying with me every day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:45)

Well.

You are processing that.

Clara Ritger (17:07)

Processing all of this and this and this mental and emotional load takes a physical toll on the body. You know, this was at the same time that I was struggling with all these physical health issues, and I think a lot of people, when you ask people, when people receive Significant diagnoses in their life. It's really interesting because almost everybody you talk to you about it can point to something unrelated or seemingly unrelated to the physical illness that they think caused it. Like, I never grieved my mother's death, or I was putting in really long hours to try to make partner, and like now I have breast cancer. Like people always have this like this inner knowing and

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:44)

Yes.

Clara Ritger (17:59)

We don't have a lot of science around this, but the science that we do have around it does point to that being true. That when the body is in prolonged states of fight or flight, when those stress hormones are flooding through the body, when your blood pressure is raised, when your heart rate is going faster, when your digestion is stopped, because these are all the things that your body does to prepare you to fight, right?

It's trying to save you. The problem is that you never then shut that down. never then move. When you're in prolonged periods of stress, you're constantly ready to fight. Well, the body, always heightened, the body eventually breaks down. Those systems eventually start to cause issues in the body. And that was my experience. And I think that that's something that we do see is that we don't see all of the steps that lead up

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:38)

You're always heightened.

Clara Ritger (18:57)

to someone's crisis, but when someone gets a cancer diagnosis, that's the part that we do see. And I believe, at least in my experience, and I think in the experience of what I've heard from other people, that there's so much more we could be doing to prevent from getting to that point of crisis. Like the body has been, at least my body was, sending signals of distress long before it hit collapse and burn up.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:30)

It was sending signals, the physical burnout. I think you have a really important lesson for anyone who's trying to do extraordinary work because not everybody becomes a journalist, especially these days, but so many people are trying to be even public-facing because we all need a personal brand these days. I'm seeing a nod.

We all are expected to be public facing these days. There's very little room to exist privately, at least not entirely. But also, I think there's a demand for all of us to work so much now because to live in this economy, it's quite typical for someone to have a nine-to-five, so to speak. And then something else alongside that, even that's a lot of burnout.

You are one of at least three guests on the podcast, maybe more, that talked about having a physical illness after a burnout. This is happening to health professionals. It's happening to business owners. It's happening to public-facing people. What were your next steps after realising that the work that you cared about was sort of wrecking you at the same time?

Clara Ritger (20:58)

Yeah, exactly. It's such a good question because there's really there's two things that you're saying here that I want to highlight. One is the economic necessity of working around the clock that because our societies have not kept up the wage growth with the inflation, and how much it costs to live.

We all have to work more to try to make ends meet, or you have to have two parents instead of one parent that is working, right? That's number one. And number two is when you're purpose-driven, when you're mission-driven, you feel this, you know, pull, I think to work more, keep going because you're like, I just have to do this thing to change the world. Right. And in the process, you're forgoing your own health and well-being. I absolutely struggled with both of those things, right? This feeling that when I was living in New York City, that I needed to work a certain amount in order to make a certain amount of money to afford to live in New York City, right? And then I would get on these projects that I was absolutely passionate about, but the experience of working on them, I was totally disembodied. I was abandoning myself for this idea of this greater good or this mission or this other person's story that I just needed to tell and just needed to get out there. And I think that having, you know, it comes down to having boundaries. And I think that having boundaries is really challenging, but is necessary to prevent burnout.

And yeah, I think there's going to be this feeling of falling behind and not keeping up with other people in your field who are able to go the distance. But at what cost are you going this distance, right? Because when your health comes knocking at the door, at a certain point, that either means you're gonna have to take this prolonged break to heal, which I did.

Or for many people, you hit retirement, you get a terminal illness, and you barely even get to enjoy that time before you go, right? And it's sad, right? And I hate to say it this way, but it is true. It's that, you know, this idea of the body keeps the score. It's a, you know, famous book in the trauma spaces, but the concept of the body keeping the score is true.

For me, I hit an absolute breaking point. I struggled with my health for six years before I had another follow-up surgery. And it was that surgery that created a total breakdown for me. I was like, I can't live like this anymore. This isn't even living, this is surviving. And I don't know how much time I have left at this rate. I really thought I wasn't going to make it to retirement.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:19)

Wow.

Clara Ritger (24:19)

I really thought that, and I thought I needed to see the world before I die. I didn't think I was going to die in the next two to three years, but I mean, I was having the kinds of surgeries, and doctors were referring to me as like a person with like 80-year-old insides. And I was like, if I have 80-year-old insides, there's no way I'm going to live another 30 years to see retirement. So

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:47)

That's illustrating. Sorry, I talked over here, and I'll touch that a bit. I jumbled my words there. day. So that's illustrating things a lot. And in sharing your story, it's this is a bit like a journalistic story in the sense that you're really painting the picture and setting the scene and describing things that are very technical. Because even when someone has been a patient like you have, when you've been a patient, everybody explains the terms to you. And the

Clara Ritger (24:50)

Go ahead

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:15)

Inside like an 80-year-old that really helps. I'm so curious, what was happening to you? How serious did it get? People were wondering. Were you basically accelerating your aging?

Clara Ritger (25:31)

That's what it felt like. Ultimately, what was challenging was that the doctors weren't able to pinpoint one specific thing that was going on. So I was coming in and presenting with all these symptoms, and they were seeing all these symptoms, but they would run their tests and do their procedures, and they're like, we don't know. And I remember after the latest surgery, I had the surgery that sort of like was the straw that broke the camel's back

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:54)

Wow.

Clara Ritger (26:01)

that caused me to abandon my whole life in New York City and travel the world. I went into the doctor's office with this like inexplicable pain about two months after that surgery. And I remember the moment I woke up that morning, I was supposed to have a follow-up that morning. So I was already scheduled to come in. I woke up that morning, and I experienced this like a sharp pain in my abdomen and an immediate swelling, like bloating.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:12)

See?

Clara Ritger (26:30)

that reminded me, like was reminiscent of the day my appendix ruptured. And I was like, I don't know what is going on, but I thought, surely there is no way that I'm coming home from this appointment. So I was like rushing around trying to make this appointment on time. I was like running the dishwasher because I was like, I'm never gonna come home. Like I'm gonna be, this is it. I'm gonna be in the hospital. And I go in and he's like looking at me and he's like, I, he's like,

Here's the thing, he's like, I can see what is happening, but what is happening doesn't line up with any complications post this particular surgery that you had. He's like, so this is something else entirely. He's like, so the next steps is going to be to have you go in and get a CT scan. He's like, schedule that within the next two weeks. And then, depending on what the CT scan finds, if they don't figure it out, we'll have to do an exploratory surgery. I'll cut an incision, and I'll put cameras inside of you, and we'll try to figure out what's going on. That was the level of like, we have no clue what is going on with you, that I was experiencing for about six years. And the thought of having an exploratory surgery broke me. I was like, I can't live like this anymore. This is not working. And so that was sort of the moment where I was like, I'm...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:48)

No!

Clara Ritger (27:54)

Leaving everything behind, I'm quitting, like I'm gonna have to figure this out, like I can't keep going like this. Like I was spending like somewhere between five and $10,000 a year easily on medical bills. And Australians can't relate to this, but this is the US medical system because I was having procedures and tests and things that like just aren't covered by insurance because I was too young.

Like I had a colonoscopy, and once you hit 50 or 55, I think in the US, you get one colonoscopy covered a year. And I had this colonoscopy because they deemed it medically necessary. They were like, We have no clue what's going on with you. We need to see inside. Well, it was a denied claim by my insurance. I paid like $3,500 for that procedure because I was too young, too young to have a colonoscopy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:42)

my goodness.

We can relate to this a bit because not everything is covered, and our public health system is so stretched that often the accessible alternative is the very expensive private health space, but also, money is money. And I'm guessing you are still only earning so much as a journalist and needing to put thousands into even just tests.

Clara Ritger (29:14)

Yeah, and I will say my income fluctuated a lot over the years. So I would have really good years, and then I would have more lean years because I was freelancing for the most part. Yeah, I think, I wanna say that was like the year before I had a really good year. I don't know, think I figured it, you know, I've managed to figure it all out, right? And I've coped, but.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:27)

Right.

So you coped.

Clara Ritger (29:42)

But yeah, mean, there was, you know, when I made the decision to travel the world, there was an element of, I'm already spending X thousands of dollars a year on health anyway. I might as well like just try taking a break, like spending that money, like taking a break and seeing like what happens. Like, yeah, I mean, and ultimately, yeah, ultimately for me, I did find out that it was like trauma-related and stress.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:03)

Interesting logic.

wow.

Clara Ritger (30:11)

Stress-related. So yeah, I did heal when I was able to move my body out of fight or flight and into rest and digest mode. You know, shocker, but all these abdominal issues related to not being in rest and digest mode.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:22)

Trauma and stress. Was there an element of both trauma and stress when you were working in media? Was it also influenced by other things? But I'm so curious to know, was that the feeling in media?

Clara Ritger (30:43)

So, a brief educational lesson, I have since actually been certified as a trauma-informed coach and a meditation teacher. And trauma is stress. These two things, so not all stress is trauma, but all trauma is stress on the body. And when you are a person with trauma, which I was, or still am, I'm not sure that you ever really graduate from being, my diagnosis that I received back in 2016 was complex PTSD, and PTSD means post-traumatic stress disorder, right? So what it effectively is is that your body is putting itself into fight or flight mode when it doesn't need to be doing that. And the complex part of it just means that it wasn't one, like, event, like one car accident that has given you PTSD. It's a bunch of things that happened over many years, particularly in childhood, that then turns into, as an adult, your nervous system subconsciously sees danger around every corner and is trying to ready you for the fight, right? And yes, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:44)

It's a bunch of things.

I've got a question out of this.

Okay, I know I keep bringing politics into this a little bit, but I feel like the world is political, and it doesn't matter where you turn, everybody either cares or doesn't care, but even not caring about politics as a statement. So again, no science, but if you have PTSD or you suspect that you're having signs of PTSD, I'm curious, does politics flare that up because people are essentially in some way fighting each other?

Clara Ritger (32:37)

Yes, and this goes back to your first question, which was how did this relate to your workplace? The thing is, is that often people with PTSD and complex PTSD, because they are used to being in a state of fight or flight, they are like the one thing that we are really good at is if you're in danger and you need to survive, we will get you there, right?

You can rely on people with complex PTSD for any sort of emergency situation. So what does that mean? If I'm really good at handling, I'm really good at handling these high-stress situations. I now seek out work that rewards that nervous system state. So journalism, doctors, like politics. Yeah. And so the thing is, is your, your set

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:23)

WHA-

Clara Ritger (33:31)

Like, and I actually wrote about this in my newsletter. I now have a newsletter where I talk about my experience of healing and travelling the world and also share a lot of this sort of these trauma-informed insights. I write about how your comfort zone winds up being discomfort. And so healing for people is to actually figure out what your comfort zone really is. And it's going to feel uncomfortable until you reset your set point. So yes, I was being triggered in many aspects of my daily life, politics certainly, the journalism workplace certainly. I think that there's an element to New York City that can be triggering. But I think the thing that's really important is, and I wrote about this actually this week in this newsletter as well, is I think that there are some careers, professions that lend themselves to naturally being constantly stressful. However, I by and large think that it isn't about what you do, but it's about how you do it. So I think that it is possible to be a doctor and not be in a state of fight or flight, chronic stress. I think that it is possible to live in New York City and not be triggered and stressed all the time.

Don't know how I feel about politics and journalism, though, I gotta be honest. I'm not sure if it's possible.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:04)

I, on that. I'll tell you something. And I seriously haven't talked about this very often at all, but a million years ago, I had a very short amount of time working in data entry in the advertising department of a TV station. And the team leader in that space expected us to not need lunch.

So if you're just physically built to sort of get a little bit woozy and then, princess, you need a lunch. It was never those words, but essentially, but also, you don't have lunch until after everything is done. But also the phrase sense of urgency translated to where all feelings are panicked. Why aren't you? Why I got this impression, this energy, this attitude from them, of why aren't you feeling panicked? And I just was at the time I would go from the suburbs to the city and do this stuff. So I wasn't constantly hyped up, and I just had this to do, okay, well, just to do this. And I think that seemed very foreign to them. So maybe if you sensed that in the social media news cycle in the

In the even traditional 24-hour news cycle, I'm seeing a lot of nods. I think I'm on the right track here. There are organisational cultures that expect people to be in this fight or flight state because it visibly looks like we are working harder.

Clara Ritger (36:47)

Absolutely.

And I think that if you're a professional listening to this, right, and you're really struggling with this, I think it's really important to evaluate your environment, your work environment, your home environment, right, and figure out is it just you or is there a reflection of what you are experiencing in the places that you spend a lot of time in and do those places need to change in order to support your healing?

For me, I think one of the reasons I had to burn it all down to the ground was because I let it get too bad. Like in every aspect of my life, in my work life, in my relationships, like my family relationships and my romantic relationships. Like, there was nothing about the previous life that I wanted to save. I had to start over.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:43)

Everything is pressed.

Clara Ritger (37:46)

And that's why I think it's so important to talk about this. My gosh, did you hear that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:51)

Yes, you got some thunder because we are talking about big stuff, and magic is happening, and Clara has a storm going on in the background. Don't you love some good symbolism? But are you okay to keep chatting?

Clara Ritger (38:02)

Seriously.

Yeah, yeah, I'm okay to keep going. That was so scary, though. That was a really loud one. Yeah. Yeah, I think like, I think it's so important to talk about this stuff because I think that, you know, save your life before it's too late, you know? Don't let everything spin out of control. Like if your work needs to change, change your work. If your family situation needs to change, change that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:07)

⁓ it was loud.

pretty much.

Clara Ritger (38:31)

It's so much easier to make smaller changes, like in the step of healing, than it is to have to start all over. And yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:44)

Yeah. Smaller changes along the way. That is so crucial because my perspective, I'm keen to know if you agree with this. I want these high-pressure industries to be led and served by people who do feel regulated enough. And this isn't about constantly being mellow or anything or constantly chilled, but

people who are sustaining themselves enough to help other people in the long term, because I don't want those industries or any others to be filled with people who feel burned out, depressed, or even a need to be tough. Another response that I wanted to bring into this is some people to even just cope with the pressure of an industry, they turn it just tough like they're putting on a shield and you end up wondering hang on who are you and what have you done with the old you that was just so gentle and nurturing to everybody because it's very hard to be nurturing and tough at the same time so do you agree we need a way for hopefully any forms of wellness to support people who are working in any high pressure professions.

Clara Ritger (40:12)

Yes, and it's important to note that a regulated nervous system is not a peaceful nervous system. A regulated nervous system is a nervous system that can move easily in and out of states of stress and into states of rest. So that's what it is, these are workplaces that are in these prolonged, heightened, stressful, angry situations that never have moments of celebration or ease, right? It's like you can pull an all-nighter once and recover, but to work 12, 14, 16 hours, days and days on end to be responding to Slack messages at seven in the morning or on the weekend, days and days on end, that's a dysregulated system. And that's an ecosystem, right, that is not supporting people. It's, you know, using them really as bodies for performance. This is, mean, really what this goes back to is that we have moved really far away from seeing each other as humans existing and like working together and just into, well, you're a body that needs to hit these KPIs. And if you don't, will just replace you. There's somebody else that will, another body that will do the job.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:43)

Yes. And this is not only for employees or people who are starting from scratch. I want to seriously acknowledge the executives or the leaders of any sort. I can think about a bunch of them. I'm not thinking about just one person or a few, but I've heard things in person and on social media. Here's what's happening. Some industries are so deprived of resources that there's a panic around having what's needed. It's basically, I'm going to call this a high-level survival mode because in your career and in mine, frankly, as well, we had moments of, okay, how am I going to get by personally? There are people out there wondering how will my people who are working for me get by? How will my customers get what they need? And that's a panic and a stress that's ongoing.

And meanwhile, some industries end up looking like a battle, and it's not only literally politics. think any field can become that sort of, I think it's human nature. So we need a version of this to agree where people can just feel okay, to put it simply.

Clara Ritger (43:01)

I think that part of the problem is I think some, not all, but I think some workplaces are aware of this problem and they want sort of a plug-and-play solution. So they're like, well, we built this like wellness room, and just nobody uses it. And it's like, you know, or we're covering people's, like, we're covering yoga for people if they want to do it, you know, that's like enough, right?

Like it's capitalist solutions like to a capitalist problem. It's like there were not sort of thinking outside of the box here on like how exactly we could solve this problem and help give people sort of what they need, right? For me, the tool that I am using and the tool that I think would be really helpful for a lot of people is actually meditation. Teaching people how to meditate can transform workplaces. I fully believe this. And here's why, because when you take 20 minutes once a day, twice a day if you can, to meditate, what it does is it allows you to tune into your experience of your life. So you start to notice maybe aches and pains that are in your body that you didn't notice before, oops, I guess I should maybe do something about that. Or all of a sudden, all these thoughts are flooding your mind that are just,

You're like, my gosh, this is really upsetting to me, and I need to work through this, or I didn't realise that was something I was upset about. I guess maybe I should go and deal with that, whatever. It allows you to sort of come back into the experience of what needs your attention. And when we get clarity on what needs our attention, then we start to have clarity as to what the priorities are in the workday. So no.

Not everything needed to be sent five minutes ago, Chad. It can wait, right? Like, and so if everyone, right? If the executives have this sort of clarity, if people in the ground level have this sort of clarity, it allows people to do what I was saying before, which is to have this regulated nervous system that can move in and out of, oops, that really needs to get done. I gotta buck up and get this done. And then, that thing is done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:02)

Yeah, Chad.

Clara Ritger (45:26)

Yes, I have 10 other things on the to-do list, but I know what my priorities are, and we'll get to them as we get to them. And allowing people that grace, of, ⁓ something came up. Well, if it's not a really urgent thing and your kid needs you to go pick them up from school because they punched someone, maybe you should go deal with the kid, you know, or whatever. Like having that sort of flexibility of moving in and out of these, what needs the most attention as humans.

So that's one tool and there's other tools, but yeah, think education and awareness is a huge piece of this. And deciding, I think, from a leadership standpoint, that this is no longer something that we're okay with doing, that we no longer are going to treat people this way and see work in this way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:21)

Yes. It's about looking after yourselves, not just in the allocated time or space, be it the what was it? The wellness room, I think you called it. What even is that? What do people do? I'm so curious. What is that?

Clara Ritger (46:35)

Yeah.

So I've seen them sort of relabeled. There used to be the lactation rooms. So if there was a mom who needed to pump, I've seen a lot of workplaces actually just take that sign off and put wellness room up so that if a mom needs to use it for that purpose, she can. But then other people, in theory, can also use it to take five minutes. Whether people are actually... Look, I don't think people are actually using these rooms.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:49)

Don't get me started.

Clara Ritger (47:07)

But I think that the reason people aren't actually using these rooms is twofold. think one, they're not really sure how to use the room. They're like, What am I even supposed to do in there? Yeah, usually with like a couch and like dim lighting and maybe some like soothing music. Yeah. And like maybe like a rocking chair of sorts. But I also think that there's not a culture that like is, that allows space for that room. You know, if you're in meetings from nine to five,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:14)

Is it literally just a room?

Okay.

Clara Ritger (47:36)

all, literally all day. When are you gonna go use this wellness room?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:44)

You wouldn't have the chance, definitely. And I wish that more people would learn that even yoga, you mentioned a yoga subscription. Yoga has a whole philosophy that's not simply woo or a Hindu or anything, but it has some very, very applicable lifestyle and ethical

ideas to basically make life go a bit more smoothly. And if that can be applied, or if any everyday practice, meditating and figuring out, what's my intention behind the meditation? Am I going to step back from the rest of the world? Whatever it might be. If we have the chance to actually apply some of these concepts that can sometimes be common sense.

Just within our everyday life, instead of, I'm going to do wellness things for a moment, a whole hour of wellness. That's what we're getting at, that wellness shouldn't just be a session. should be a way of life. And I'm not saying hide away with the lentils. We're saying, weave this into the amazing work that people are doing.

Clara Ritger (48:46)

Yes.

Exactly. It's about how you approach life. And people do not have the tools, right? And I mean, you know, one place to start would be potentially therapy. And a lot of in the US, your health insurance is tied to your employer. And so you typically get a certain amount of therapy sessions covered at a copay, which is like a reduced rate.

But once you've hit the maximum on your plan, then you have to pay full price for these therapy sessions. I've been on health insurance plans where my portion of the partially covered sessions were anywhere between 60 to 120 US dollars per session. So I would pay 60 to 120, and then the insurance would pay the other portion of it. And then I was getting maybe 10 to 20 sessions at that rate. And then once I finished that, I had to pay each session at 250 US dollars to 300 US dollars, whatever the full price of that therapist. Right. And this is what I'm saying, by like, this is actually like a huge, massive problem that it's like, if workplaces want to know where to start, how about figuring out how to make your health insurance plan cover therapy for free? Because that's where people and also that hour that somebody needs to take to go and see that therapist.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:08)

Wow, that's huge. That's so expensive.

Clara Ritger (50:29)

Don't count that against their leave time because that is gonna be a place where people go and get these resources and learn how to approach work and relationships differently. And they bring all of that back into the workplace. Like we should be seeing therapy the same way that we see continued education, like an upskilling for professionals. We should be seeing that.

as emotional intelligence upskilling, which is what it is. That's what my experience with it was, but we don't. And so, at least in the U.S., it's a very hard barrier. There's a barrier to entry to even get access to the tools that you need to learn this way of being.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:14)

Yes, the prices were a lot higher than what I imagined they would be, but that concept is very similar for us, but it's from Medicare, government-funded insurance. Essentially, we would, I think, don't quote me on this one. Sorry, I shouldn't say the phrase don't quote me on it on a podcast, but the insurance package is from memory, about 10 sessions that are subsidised.

Clara Ritger (51:35)

you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:43)

And then the rest, maybe eventually there'll be another pack of those. Otherwise, it's full price. So it's a very similar concept. And I think this is very common, especially if people are watching their money closely or there are lots of other expenses, then people have to really prioritise their health. And I think it's quite a sacrifice to make. It's a big financial decision for the average individual to say, okay,

I'm going to maybe have to cut back on other things to even be affording to talk to someone.

Clara Ritger (52:19)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it's definitely, we definitely live in a landscape that is challenging, right? And, you know, I feel very fortunate that I was able to sort of take this break to heal. And that's one of the reasons I got trained and am sharing my story and talking about this with people, and the resources that helped me the most, you know, because meditation, it costs you a little bit to learn, but it is largely free. Once you learn, you can do this for free. It's a thing that you have, it's a skill that you have with you for the rest of your life, right? And so yeah, for me, it's like the more that I can just share this education for free and help, hopefully just empower or at least enlighten people to this alternate way of being.

Yeah, I went on this journey on my own and really struggled to figure a lot of this stuff out. But on the other side, it's like, yeah, I wish people knew this. I wish I had known. I struggled for six years with these health issues. I wish I had figured it out sooner. I wish someone had told me sooner.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:35)

I'm so keen to ask you, how do you feel about communities forming where people can share more wisdom so we can create some prevention before we reach the point where we need urgent therapy?

Clara Ritger (53:52)

I mean, yeah, I think it sounds great. I think the more we can support each other on these paths, the better, because ultimately, if you want to change the world, change yourself. If everybody was able to change themselves, we would change the world, right? And so I think having these communities helps inspire people to go down that journey to really to find yourself, to live in alignment with.

what your body needs and what makes your soul feel alive.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:26)

Absolutely. We could talk about this for so long because it's very essential. Would you like to conclude with three actionable tips that anyone can implement to make their lives better?

Clara Ritger (54:46)

Yes, absolutely. So, I mean, in the theme of what we've been talking about, which has mostly been like workplace stress, right? My first tip, and this is the first thing that I started doing very early on, is when you get a sense of things getting really stressful at work, urgency, maybe you just had a difficult conversation with your boss, you name it, take a walk, leave the office, and just go for a walk for five minutes and then come back. That's an easy way to inject just a moment of like change your scenery, get some clarity, you know, even if it's just moving your body a little bit. I promise those five minutes, you won't miss them. And actually, it will improve whatever you have to do next. It'll help you do whatever you have to do next. So that's the first step.

The second step, I would say, would be to learn to meditate. I'm really a huge proponent of meditation. Meditation absolutely changed my life. ⁓ Meditation is ultimately, I think, what helped me to heal. So my experience was that the most transformative effects of meditation were not on the cushion, the metaphorical meditation cushion, but were after I meditated and how those 20 minutes that I meditated every day then had ripple effects into how I showed up in the rest of my day. And I can say this, but you just won't know it until you experience it. There's many different forms of meditation. I teach one form of meditation called instinctive meditation, which is really about honouring the individual, the idea being that there's no one-size-fits-all.

for anybody. And so I work with people on a one-on-one basis to help them find a meditation practice that suits them and helps them to feel more connected to their loved ones, more present in their life experiences and showing up in the workplace ⁓ with boundaries and clarity. Right. So if you're interested in that at all, feel free to reach out to me. My social media is at Clara Ritker or C-L-A-R-A-R-I-T-G-E-R. And I also write a newsletter, and my newsletter is AdventureToAwaken.com. And if you go to AdventureToAwaken.com, you will see up in the menu a solo retreat guide. And we can also link it in the description for this podcast, but that's free. So you'll also get signed up for my newsletter when you download it, but it's 56 pages that will, that with guided meditations, guided yoga practices, it's like, if you want to just take a five-day retreat, like get a hotel or an Airbnb in your hometown, like you don't have to pay $5,000 and go to Bali for this healing and wellness retreat, right? Like this is a resource that will take you through a self-guided retreat, start to finish, what to cook, everything.

I made it just to give people sort of like a lot for free so that, like, you know, like there's so much that you can do, like outside of the like, well, this industrial complex. So, so those would be the three things that I would say here's places to start explore these resources, you know, take a walk, try to learn meditation with me or just look at this free solo retreat guide. Even if you only do one day of it, I promise something will help you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:35)

Thank you so much, Clara. Thanks for the wisdom and the resources and for sharing your story.

Clara Ritger (58:43)

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me, and wish everyone the best of luck and a beautiful weekend journey ahead.