Welcome to Part 6 of the Lucy in the Sky with Dinahs series where Natasha discusses psychedelic-assisted therapy within high-demand religious context of Sexual and Religious Trauma. Natasha is joined by Amy Rossi and Aimee Heffernan.

In this episode, the team discusses ketamine.

Note that neither Natasha or the Amie's are doctors. They do not condone illegal behavior. Please make sure you know your local and state laws before using psychedelics.

For more on Amy Rossi, you can go to her instagram at @messages.from.the.medicine

For more on Amy Heff, she has an office in Bountiful, Utah, and does video consulting. She's on instagram at: @aimeeheff

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

Natasha is joined by Katherine Spearing, MA, CTRC, to discuss her latest book, "A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts," which addresses the spiritual abuse survivor's recovery journey, on this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast.

Katherine Spearing MA, CTRC is the founder of Tears of Eden (https://www.tearsofeden.org/), a nonprofit supporting survivors of spiritual abuse, and the former executive producer and host of the groundbreaking podcast "Uncertain", a podcast that pioneered pivotal conversations around Spiritual Abuse. She's also a Certified Trauma Recovery Practitioner (https://www.katherinespearing.com/coaching) working primarily with women who have been impacted by the patriarchy and artists navigating religious trauma.

Katherine is a huge advocate for the power of art to help us on our healing journey. She participates in improv theater both as a performer and coach and is the author of one novel ("Hartfords" https://www.katherinespearing.com/books). She has been a guest on a number of podcasts, including "IndoctriNation" and "A Little Bit Culty," is the author of several nonfiction articles, and writes regularly at katherinespearing.com and tearsofeden.org.

Sign up for the newsletter at her website:

katherinespearing.com

You can purchase her book at the link below:

https://amzn.to/49J7OAs

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

Tara Olson joins Natasha on this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast. They discuss the intersection of eating disorders, religion and sex.

Tara Olson is an Associate Certified Social Worker (CSW) who approaches therapy from a feminist-multicultural, trauma-informed, and culturally responsive framework. She views healing as a collaborative process, where clients bring their lived wisdom and cultural expertise, and together, client and therapist co-create a space for growth and change.

For more on Tara, go here: https://symcounseling.com/tara-olson/

Natasha is doing an Ethical Nonmonogamy group starring February 24th. For more, go here: https://symcounseling.com/navigating-ethical-non-monogamy/

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

Dr. Quintin Hunt joins Natasha on this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast.

They discuss a difficult topic: preventing suicide.

More on Dr. Hunt:

My journey towards being a therapist began when I was 8 years old: my oldest brother died by suicide, my youngest brother developed schizophrenia, and I was sexually abused. It was then, at 8, my own suicidal thoughts began. Throughout my adolescence and early adulthood I struggled with deep feelings of depression, that no one could ever love me, and that even my feelings and emotions did not matter. I even felt God hated me because of the trauma I had gone through and more because of who I was attracted to. The only way I knew how to receive some pieces of love and acceptance I deeply desire was to hid myself and my feelings from everyone around me.

My trauma, my family's trauma, and our struggles to get help that helped us deal with OUR patterns of generational trauma is what pushed me towards doctoral education (PhD) and studying what makes someone suicidal and how to help the process of suicide bereavement. It was through this process of studying suicidality over nearly two decades that I was finally able to see the patterns of generational trauma many suicidal folks live in—and I was finally able to see the patterns of generational trauma in my own life and how my own compulsion to hide myself perpetuated the patterns of self-hatred, depression, and loneliness.

Identifying the patterns of trauma in my life allowed me to believe that I did not deserve my trauma, that my emotions mattered, and that I mattered. I was finally able to advocate for myself and have been able to finally, for the first time to develop friendships and accept love that others were willing to offer but I was unable to see.

You can check out more information at his practice: Olive View Therapy: https://www.oliveviewtherapy.com

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

Natasha is joined by two of her colleagues on this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast. Amy Roy and Lindsay Ferguson, both interns at Symmetry Counseling, join to discuss supporting faith transitions.

Resources referenced in this episode:

"When Mormons Doubt" by Jon Ogden: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1535350377/?bestFormat=true&k=when%20mormons%20doubt&ref_=nb_sb_ss_w_scx-ent-bk-ww_k0_1_16_de&crid=WMLVXOBVUVX2&sprefix=when%20mormons%20dou

"Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids without Religion" by Dale McGowan:

https://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Beyond-Belief-Raising-Religion/dp/0814437419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=352KN87OF690Y&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Ua-_vxM_d-ndcFQVCIkpLRM2COHo1k1vUNsb7Vg8DTIj9zWaLhzegioWmYIX-kglontgVYgyIWW7h2b9swuOondzm9QzYrwoV0bPAWgHtFBOUN9q69ljskYzZZCu3JgPZoibeY4A-UoYIvJCsn9_7T9mEThlMhQ4O2pE06VTtdW53ssBV2AAlwuHlIOk4KDnNwCRaqfN6PPrj5uua1iymcZMZ_EPvPXwgyo9Geh90ws.fZfGgtXas2D1MMYcIHHKADhkgBYgnJyu5KEzjtlgTC0&dib_tag=se&keywords=parenting+beyond+belief&qid=1766593809&s=books&sprefix=parenting+beyond+belief%2Cstripbooks%2C167&sr=1-2

Mormon Mental Health Association: https://mormonmentalhealthassoc.org/

Parenting after a Mormon Faith Crisis: https://www.mormonfaithcrisis.com/parenting-after-a-mormon-faith-crisis-an-overview/

Uplift Kids: https://upliftkids.org/

More on Amy and Lindsay:

Amy Roy believes in the power of helping people discover the strengths they already possess within themselves. Personal empowerment is a driving force in her work and she is deeply passionate about helping people create the lives they desire.

Amy spent many years working in higher education and has loved helping young adults along their journey into adulthood. After completing the CES Seminary teaching program, she worked as an CES Institute teacher for Harvard and MIT students in Cambridge, MA. Amy's experience of leaving the LDS Church after two years of research, followed by her journey in alcohol recovery, inspired her to return to school for her second master's degree to become a therapist. Amy is passionate about helping people in recovery and those creating a new life for themselves after major life changes and/or trauma. She sought out a practice with a faith transition specialty and is thrilled to now be with Symmetry! She is also a board member of the Mormon Mental Health Association (MMHA)

Along with being a Certified Life Coach, Amy holds a Bachelor of Science degree from Brigham Young University and a Master of Higher Education Leadership degree from Northcentral University, and is currently finishing her Master's in May as a Clinical Mental Health Counselor.

Go here to find out more about Amy: https://symcounseling.com/amy-roy/

Lindsay Ferguson is a CSW intern therapist at Symmetry Counseling and an MSW graduate student at Louisiana State University, graduating in May 2026. She works with individuals of all ages and couples, supporting clients through life transitions, trauma, grief, relationship challenges, parenting concerns, LGBTQ+ experiences, religious transitions, and mental health challenges, with a focus on values-based, meaningful living. She's been married for 20 years, is a mom of four (two teens and 11-year-old twins), and enjoys reading, walks with her dogs, and time with her family.

Go here to find out more on Lindsay: https://symcounseling.com/lindsay-ferguson/

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

Mike Fuller joins Natasha on this episode of the Natasha Helfer podcast to share his "Compass" framework for healthy Sexuality.

You can find out more about Mike by visiting his website: fullercounselinggroup.com

You can check out his previous episode on the podcast, "From LDS CES Instructor to LGBTQ+ Affirming, Life Transition Therapist" here:

https://www.natashahelfer.com/the-natasha-helfer-podcast/episode85

For Therapists and Counselors, visit: learnreligiontherapy.com

The upcoming, "'Sinner' and 'Saint' as Trauma Responses: Understanding Religious Coping Through a Trauma-Informed Lens" will be January 16, 2026. Go here to sign up: https://learnreligiontherapy.com/course/sinnersaint

Other resources shared in this episode:

Blog post by Mike Fuller: What I Wished We Learned About Sex: A Compass for Healthy Sexuality: https://www.fullercounselinggroup.com/blog/blog-post-title-four-drfz3-wfsfk

The work of Al Vernacchio: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Al-Vernacchio/author/B00JE5300E?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=3cf11c0e-4cde-4b34-aaa0-6de7a122ac0c

The work of Emily Nagoski: https://www.emilynagoski.com

The work of Doug Braun Harvey and the Harvey Institute: https://www.theharveyinstitute.com/about-us/doug-braun-harvey

Ejaculate Responsibly by Gabrielle Blair: https://www.amazon.com/Ejaculate-Responsibly-Whole-Think-Abortion/dp/B0B5YHG14Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2HZIFS9HYVZAV&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.hY_XQU7U6FCSkdTZNP5Iqck3UTUDfRe5qGuY_vpEH00K5M8pWaRwab0TX7dQMJxV.63enJxmsekW3bywQ2iEq_MGlNt9PzbKZHmOFEtzPKaQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=ejaculate+responsibly&qid=1764982421&sprefix=ejaculate+responsibly%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1&fbclid=IwY2xjawOu83ZleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETF0N0RDWlRDbktMS1NVMzVjc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHqQGrU8UP7nqBpLZQcAHp-ybwdHDvtBgKl8YS0kyi0Uc0fb9KWuA73dvQ5aN_aem_noSItRK4Z0jdy0FWIbyPdA

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

On this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast, Natasha is joined by the Mother/Daughter duo: Dee-Dee Darby Duffin and Darby Mest. Both have unique approaches when it comes to their clients: one with therapy and the other with coaching.

Both have client openings and work at Symmetry Counseling with Natasha.

For more on Dee-Dee, go here: https://symcounseling.com/dee-dee-darby-duffin/

For more on Darby, go here: https://symcounseling.com/darby-mest/

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

Natasha is joined by Dane Campbell, author of "Growing Up with Satan" on this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast. He and Natasha discuss the book and the environment that he was raised in that inspired it:

"Growing Up with Satan - Told By a Brother that Knew Him Well" is an account of a boy growing up in an insular community as part of a high demand religion that espoused Satan or Lucifer to be a real and empowered entity that could bear sway on individuals and circumstances. This memoir describes someone facing major life events, how the religion's teachings around Satan and the interplay of forming beliefs led to shame, guilt and fear that was often crippling in life. The writer discusses ways they found to cope with the dogma, and eventually found a way to deconstruct and overcome the trauma of growing up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. His stories as a mormon and exmormon are engaging and can be helpful to any who are struggling to leave cults, high-demand religions and organizations."

Dane is taking new clients. You can contact him on his website:

https://changewithdane.com/

Additional resources include:

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ChangewithDane

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/changewithdane

Substack: https://substack.com/@changewithdane?utm_source=explore_sidebar

You can buy his book at

Barnes and Noble: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/growing%20up%20with%20satan

Or Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Growing-Up-Satan-Dane-Campbell/dp/B0FF7H34MV/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1PR6YFN8GOC1R&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.bj2xpbzBH9mrbreRJNUfBytTMeHfyIM4Jn4Fr0qIdiQSP9v4oz6Iw5_wCneijUetAn4mNTIphsS_l-kPqNSNCAErrAoDOlgvWkEwT6ILFNMMq2DluhsFMZ_Q2fqEeT0SW7DaHKOMbkU_QhmYTId4kVZ31Z6dYYdF67YsgzUGTBJ4_G78_42Xr9FvZDGLfKSMMN6D1JVRq9HmIM9Re9b0x8I8OWOw7Pz9b352r72Fnpo.zW8o07oX5iD7p67d-PWkpuTdwpWddOsL8Z6UNCWQkbw&dib_tag=se&keywords=growing+up+with+satan&qid=1764371075&sprefix=growing+up+with+satan%2Caps%2C192&sr=8-1

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

On this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast, Kate, the ExMo, and Erika, the NeverMo, join to talk about GroupThink. Kate and Erika host a podcast called, "An ExMo and a NeverMo Walk Into a Bar… Podcast".

Kate

The ExMo

Kate was born and raised a card-carrying Mormon and stayed committed until the summer she turned 45. Now known as Midlife Exmo on TikTok, she shares her faith deconstruction journey with her "yes, and" philosophy to support others leaving high-demand religions. A former teacher, Kate now embraces life as a curious student—learning, growing, and savoring the occasional coffee or glass of wine along the way. TikTok: @midlifeexmo

Erika

The NeverMo

Erika is a NeverMormon that curiously found herself living in Utah several years ago. While she loves the state, the culture has taken some adjustment. When she is not podcasting, she is writing feature-length scripts (her latest placed as a Second-Rounder in the Austin FIlm Festival, as well as placing as a finalist in the FIlmQuest Festival in Provo). She is also pursuing her Master's in Communications at Southern Utah University.

TikTok: @imerikana

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.

Welcome to Part 6 of "Uncoupling the Myth" where Natasha and guests challenge the narrative that non-monogamy destroys relationships. After a recent podcast episode on this very topic, Natasha was flooded with messages—hundreds of people thanking her for validating their relationship choices and lived experiences. That response made it clear: these voices deserve more airtime. So in this series, we're amplifying real stories and offering a more hopeful, grounded, and nuanced view than what you typically hear about. To be clear; as both a relationship and sexuality expert, Natasha is not here to advocate for non-monogamy or monogamy—she's here to advocate for healthy, ethical relationships, no matter what form they take.

"Ginger & Derrick" have been married 36 years. They left Mormonism 4 1/2 years ago in their 50's. They have been in an ENM relationship for close to 4 years and living life to the fullest.

Insta: GingerHughes69

TikTok: GingerHughes6900, XmoBroDon

Facebook: GingerHughes69

—

Join Natasha February 11-17th 2026 on a cruise leaving out of Tampa, Florida. You can grab a package and work with Natasha on the ship. Sign up before January 1st and you get the early bird special:

Natasha packages:

$750 per couple

$675 per couple - early bird (before January 1st)

Payment plans are available. For further questions, email Mimi at [email protected].

Book now to make sure you don't miss out!

See you on board.

—

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha's channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

The information shared on this program is informational and should not be considered therapy.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember:

Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

There are also several upcoming workshops. Visit natashahelfer.com or symcounseling.com to find out more.