The Official BNI Podcast

Dean Jackson explains to guest host Spencer Reynolds how you can use the psychology behind referrals to your benefit in BNI and in business.

Priscilla:
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by Spencer Reynolds, who is standing in today as a guest host for Dr. Misner, and he will be joining us from time to time. Hello, Spencer. Welcome to the podcast.

Spencer:
Thank you, Priscilla. I appreciate it. Excited to be with you.

Priscilla:
It’s great to have you. And who are you presenting us with today?

Spencer:
Today’s guest is someone that has spent decades, honestly, with business owners and teaching them a really powerful truth about marketing, and that it’s the world happens through relationships and trust and referrals. He’s a legendary marketer. He’s a co-host of an iconic podcast called I Love Marketing, and he’s a brilliant thinker on philosophy. And this is a good friend of mine. His name is Dean Jackson. Dean, welcome to the show.

Dean:
Thank you. Welcome. Glad to be here.

Spencer:
Yeah, you know, Dean, it’s hard to believe that we’ve known each other for 24 years now.

Dean:
Is that how long it’s been? That’s crazy.

Spencer:
And I’m only 22 in my head, so that math.

Dean:
Yeah, exactly. Me too. That’s so funny. We actually had Dr. Misner on our I Love Marketing podcast years ago.

Spencer:
Fantastic. Well, Dean, today I really want to talk about some of the wisdom that you’ve learned over years inside of marketing, and referrals in particular. But let’s talk about why. You know, Simon Sinek says start with why. So let’s start with why do people refer?

Dean:
I think that’s the biggest misconception that people have is that often one of the first blocks we have to overcome to really optimize the number of referrals that you can get, is to understand that people are not referring as a favor to you or a gift to you. When you have this mindset that you have to earn referrals or that you are somehow asking for referrals, you’re going down a path that is kind of counter to what we, as species, have evolved to do. As long as we have been playing the cooperation game and escape the food chain, basically we’ve become the most successful species ever. That we have learned the importance of looking out for each other and maintaining what I call our status in the herd. That if we look at it, that that’s the primary reason that we do anything, and the reason that we avoid anything is if we feel like something might damage our status in the herd.

And it’s a very, very… you know, it goes all the way back to when we were gathering as you know tribes of 150 people or groups, that we always had to kind of look out for each other, and we realized that we were going to be better off if we were constantly looking out for and adding value collectively. And so you see the remnants of these things happen, you know, evolve into even, our society things. The way we are today, we’re not kind of out on the savanna with our just 150 people. We’re in big cities, but we’re still among our group of 150 people. There’s been a lot of research on this, and you may have heard of Robin Dunbar.

Spencer:
Yeah.

Dean:
His research on what’s become known as Dunbar’s Number, and that number is 150, and it’s the number of relationships that we can maintain. Now we may know and recognize 1000 or more people, but we truly have relationship with 150, and we’re very guarded in those relationships. It’s our role to add value to our herd and to protect our herd from getting damaged. That’s why we’re…  If you look at everything we do, we want to recommend things to people.

Spencer:
Yeah, we do.

Dean:
You see it all the time. If you see a movie, or if we’re talking about movies, we already know, “You got to see this one.” or “Oh, don’t see that one.” We’re even guarding people’s experiences. We don’t want them to waste their time reading a book that wasn’t worth it or making sure that they do read a book that was. And it’s the same thing for service providers and products that we that we come in contact with.

Spencer:
Talk more about this status in the herd. Because you came out to Tampa [Florida] in our [BNI] region and did a conversation with me on stage at one of our big conferences, and that’s been talked about so much. That’s why I really wanted to bring you here. So give us that hunter-gatherer conversation so that people can hear you.

Dean:
If we look at it, that we constantly are looking to, I’ll call it like “keep our balanced books.” That this is what Robert Cialdini would talk about with reciprocation. That if I do something nice for you, then you kind of owe me a favor, and you see that all the time playing out just in our normal interactions. But how that would have worked back then is let’s say we’re out and we’re hunting and gathering, and I find a big patch of blueberries, and I see you on the trail, and I say, “Hey, Spencer, there’s a big patch of blueberries over that hill. Go get you some blueberries, too. And I’m going to carry these big ones all the way back to the camp.”

Now, in that moment, I am higher status than you because I have just added value to you. You feel this need to balance that out, so you may say to me, “Well, watch out behind those rocks because I saw a lion over there,” and now we’re even. I showed you where the blueberries were. You protected me from the lion. That’s the way the give and take of society works. So we’re constantly looking for opportunities to protect our herd and to guide our herd to different things. And whenever we do something nice for somebody or thoughtful for somebody, that is raising our status. They kind of owe us one in a way, and that’s what really drives the way that we that we interact with people and the way that we introduce new things or protect people. That’s why you see, like you see it all the time. So many people, like we depend on all the people around us. That’s why testimonials, and that’s why reviews and things are kind of like… we’re by proxy taking somebody else’s… They’re helpfully giving us advice on something.

Spencer:
Yeah, and that’s what I was going to ask: is why does that matter more now than it ever has in the past?

Dean:
Yeah, because there’s so many people that we don’t know that are trying to take advantage of us, you know. And so that’s why we try and protect the people that we know in our 150. Imagine, a city is just all these interlaced herds of your inner circle of 150 people And let’s just talk about Dunbar’s Number there. The 150 that we’re talking about are people that if you saw them at the grocery store, you’d recognize them by name. You’d stop and have a conversation with them. You have a relationship with them, and we’re constantly in conversation with those people, and that’s the absolute key to the referrals – that we have a relationship with somebody, we’re going to have conversation with them, and in those conversations, certain things have to take place. They have to notice that the conversation is about whatever it is that would be useful for you. They have to think about you, and then they have to introduce you to the person that they have the conversation with, and that’s how referrals actually happen.

Somebody, if I’m a real estate agent and I’m talking with one of my top 150, and they’re saying, “Oh, we’re getting transferred. We’re going to have to sell the house and move to Poughkeepsie.” Now, if I am, you know, if I’m in that situation and I hear somebody saying that, I may say, “Well, you should call Spencer because Spencer’s a great realtor, he can help you out. That’s my realtor. Tell him I told you to call.” That kind of thinking that we’re doing the right thing, and that’s often what people train their clients to do. They’ll tell people make sure and tell your friends about me, but what that doesn’t do is that doesn’t connect the dots between you and the person that you are referring.

And it’s an important thing because then somebody you know, you may run into them at the grocery store, and they’ll say, “Hey, did my friend Spencer ever give you a call?” “No, no, I never heard from him.” “Oh well, I guess they’re gone now.” “But I tell people about you all the time.” You hear people say that, right? That you encourage people to tell people about you. That’s exactly what they do. And what would be more valuable is instead of concentrating on them telling people about you, we need to train them to tell you about people. To tell you about their friends that are moving, and the best way to do that is to give them the opportunity to be the hero. So if I have a book…

Spencer:
Yeah. And Dean, we are going to have to wrap up here in just a minute. So I’m just wanting to make sure that you got that, and that we can finish up with this thought because this is good.

Dean:
No problem. So if I have a book called How to Sell Your House for Top Dollar Fast, and I train my clients to say, “Hey, just a quick note in case you hear someone talking about selling their house, and then if you do, give me a call or text me, and I’ll give you a copy of my book to give to them.” Now you’re giving something of value to somebody that’s going to make them look like a very thoughtful person. That’s going to reflect well on their status, that you thoughtfully went out of your way and you got me something.

Spencer:
And just like that, you raise your status in the herd.

Dean:
That’s exactly right.

Spencer:
Fantastic. Well, Dean, this is really good. I really hope people can see that inside of the philosophy. We have to think a little deeper than just surface level on the motivations of why people want to refer us, and I think this was a really great way to teach some of that. So thank you so much for your time. What’s the best way for people to be able to find out more about you if they want to hear more of this, Dean?

Dean:
I’m pretty easy to find at deanjackson.com.

Spencer:
There you go. Priscilla, back to you.

Priscilla:

Okay, perfect. Thank you both so much. That’s it for this week.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Daniela Antongiovanni says kind leadership begins with listening beyond people’s behavior to the human needs underneath. Leaders fear that if they’re kind, they will be less effective, less authoritative, but the opposite is true. It’s much easier to judge or withdraw or hide behind authority instead of remaining open and curious and wanting to connect.

Model the behavior you want to see in your company, your team, or your BNI chapter. If you make people feel valued and understood, it’s easier to work with them to look at the impact of their behavior and find a better way forward.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am in California today. I’m about to leave for the membership drive cruise, which we do almost every year, and I get to hang out with 100 of my closest friends, BNI members from all over the United States, so it’s always fun to do these.

Priscilla:
Oh, that sounds great!

Ivan:
Today I’ve got a guest, and she’s an interpreter, so she’s going to laugh at my interpretation of her… pronunciation of her last name. But I’ve known Daniella for a long time, Daniela Antongiovanni. Did I get it close?

Daniela:
Close enough, yeah.  (laughing)

Ivan:
Close enough (chuckling). You can call me miss-ner if you want then, Daniela. I’ve known Daniela a long time. Let me introduce her, and then I’ll tell you a quick story. She’s an interpreter, a business coach, an expert in nonviolent communication in a BNI franchise. What do they all have in common? Well, that’s what she’s going to talk about.

So we’re going to listen to that. She had visited a BNI meeting, I think the first one was in 2014, and was really shocked about the way people were doing business. And she recognized that this was going to make a difference in the world, and she joined BNI in 2015, became a Director Consultant in 2016 and Executive Director in 2020. I first met her when she was an interpreter for me, and I do this with all interpreters. I say, “Hey, if I go too fast, just you know, have somebody raise their hands, raise their arms, so that I can know we’re going too fast.”

And Daniela was like, “No, that’s not going to be a problem. Don’t worry about that.” And as soon as she said that, I knew I had a great interpreter because when the interpreters say, “Oh yeah, yeah, I’ll have somebody slow you down,” then I know I have an interpreter and I have to slow down. But with Daniela, she is right on it. She’s a great interpreter and a great Executive Director. Welcome to the BNI podcast, Daniela.

Daniela:
Thank you, Ivan. That’s very nice.

Ivan:
I told you that story, didn’t I?

Daniela:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. (both laughing) If you want, I have a counter story to that.

Ivan:
Well, I don’t want to take too much time from the podcast.

Daniela:
No, no, no. We’ll do it in person. Okay.

Ivan:
Okay. So, what is kind leadership, and why is it better?

Daniela:
Yes, I’ll go into the definition. But before that, let me recall a moment when I saw it so clearly in action, and actually that was through you, because when we first met in 2016 at the BNI Italy National Conference in Milan, where I was for the first time honored to be your interpreter. Actually, I found something very surprising happening because after your keynote, I was supposing that you would retreat to the VIP room, as many other high-profile speakers I had translated were doing all the time. And instead you came up straight to the interpreting booth, and you said to me, “Come with me. I want to meet the members. I want to shake their hands. I want to do selfies. I want to answer their questions. I want to be there for them.” And you did. And there, I realized that you know I was working with a very special and kind leader, because you were not using status to create distance, you were creating connection. And that was a turning point in my professional evolution because that made me genuinely curious about BNI, and still today I’m learning from the way you lead. So…

Ivan:
That’s very sweet of you to say, Daniela, and I appreciate it. I think it’s important that I go out and meet as many members as possible, and I have members say to me, “Oh, thank you so much. You know, it must be really difficult to do this.” And I and I usually tell them, “Look, I could be digging ditches. This is way easier than digging ditches. I’m happy to take photographs.”

Daniela:
Yeah, yeah. Then kind leadership actually for me begins exactly with this. It begins with listening beyond people’s behavior to the human needs underneath. Because tension and conflicts arise at the surface. Because we like to judge people, we judge them by what they do, what they say, by what they don’t do or don’t say. And then we like to be right when we judge them. But everybody sees reality from a different perspective, and we speak from experience, from our values, from our wounds, from our needs and desires, and they’re not right or wrong; they just are. And the point is that very often the needs are unexpressed, either because we’re not fully aware of them, or because by expressing them, maybe we will be made uncomfortable, and so we don’t really like that. So a kind leader is one who likes to go beneath the surface, be curious.

Ivan:
Mm hmm.

Daniela:
Which doesn’t mean that every behavior is acceptable. It means that when you understand the need that is engendering that behavior, you can look at the impact together, and together you can find a better way forward. That’s a healthy relationship, and we can do that every day when we meet people. And you know, the usual question is, “How are you?

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
Instead of just settling with the, “Fine, great,” in America, you say “terrific,” right? (both chuckling) Why don’t we just stay there and remain present, and we’ll meet the human being before the business person?

Ivan:
Yeah

Daniela:
That’s kind, I think.

Ivan:
Yeah, that is. I try to say I have a full life when I’m asked that question.

Daniela:
Yeah. Yes.

Ivan:
It could be I’m crazy busy, but it’s still full. I don’t say I’m crazy busy. I say I have a full life. I talked about this on a podcast before. So, what are some of your favorite questions?

Daniela:
My favorite questions are, for example, when I meet people, the first one is very open. The very open question is, “How’s life working out for you?” And then I project that into the future, and I ask them whether they have a dream they’re working on, if they’re creating something. And then, since life is not always so sweet, it’s also important to know what challenges are keeping you up at night.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
But my all favorite question is, “What would you need right now?” Because that helps them go inside, and when you go inside, everybody knows what they know. And I just sometimes joke about and say, “Well, you can’t say a clone,” but very often they tell you right away what they need, and we can do that for them.

Ivan:
Do you find that the question about challenges needs to be towards the end of the conversation, not in the beginning, because they don’t really know you? My experience is, I’ve got to get them to open up before I ask them that question.

Daniela:
Yes, there needs to be possibly a meaningful relationship already in place, or in any case, some degree of safety, because safety is what makes people take their armor off and speak openly, and they can listen deeply. You can connect on a more profound level with people. Yes.

Ivan:
And this works outside BNI as well as inside BNI, I’m guessing.

Daniela:
Absolutely. That’s where the skepticism is strongest, where I think the need is highest because they know….

Ivan:
I like that. Repeat that. Repeat that. That’s powerful.

Daniela:
Yeah, because the skepticism is strongest outside BNI because there’s a very competitive culture around leaders, and the need is the highest, I think. Yes, absolutely. Because leaders fear that if they’re kind, they will be less effective, less authoritative. And let me tell you a story about that.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
I was coaching the top managers in an automotive company there, and the production manager was very skeptical, and he argued, “You know, I have 138 males from different cultures. It can get very rough. We have war rooms to resolve conflicts,” which I think is quite ridiculous. They should be called peace rooms if they want to be constructive. (both chuckling) But anyway, this is what they do. And then I said to him, “You know, but why don’t you just, you know, it may not be easy, but it’s surely simple. Be what you would like to see in your department.” Someone else said that before me, right? So he started going down to the factory floor, greeting them, “Hey, how are you? Is there anything I can do for you?” And they were very uncomfortable at first, and they made jokes.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
They were shy, but he continued. And after six months, they were starting to support each other and begin to work as a team. They were going out for lunch together, which is not so hard for Italians normally, but they need a special invitation.

Ivan: (laughing)

Daniela:
Okay, and that was amazing because then the results came.

Ivan:
Right.

Daniela:
And so you see, kind leadership or kindness in general, changes the quality of the relationships, and when you change the quality of the relationships, that changes the results.

Ivan:
Yeah, it absolutely does. And you know, there’s a school of thought about aggressive leadership, and there are a number of billionaires, who I won’t name, that have that track record. But that’s just not who I want to be. You know, success to me is not just about the success of the business, but it’s the success of the relationships that you have. And so, I love this idea of kind leadership.

Daniela:
Yes.

Ivan:
Now, having said that, is being kind not considered… This is a setup question because I know the answer. Is being kind not considered a sign of weakness? I

Daniela:
It is often mistaken for that, but I think it really requires courage. Because it’s much easier to judge or withdraw or hide behind authority instead of remaining open and curious and wanting to connect. And you know, make that other person feel seen, understood, and valued-a real connection. That’s what we need most, along with grounding. That’s how we build meaningful relationships. The ones that make leaders not feel lonely. Sometimes it can feel lonely at the top, and when you are creating an inner circle, where you can feel safe, where you can speak openly, where you can listen deeply, challenge respectfully, and take responsibility for the impact that you are making. I think that is not lowering the bar, and that is not weak. That is not soft leadership. That is kind leadership. That’s a way of really building meaningful relationships. Sometimes they can go even beyond business in BNI, for example. There’s a beautiful ecosystem for that. And you know, did I tell you about Lorenzo? Lorenzo, we joined together the same week in 2015 in January, we began as fellow members. Today, he is a closest friend of mine, besides being my heads of communication. And BNI is a perfect ecosystem for this. And it doesn’t really surprise me that we made it into the Inc. 5000 list. Absolutely.

Ivan:
Yes, we have just recently. BNI made it into that. Well, I agree with you. Kindness is often seen as a weakness, but it’s not. And I tell, you know, we don’t train people. People become leaders, and they’re not necessarily trained to be leaders. But I think if you generally can, you know, apply the systems and the rules more like Mandela than Attila, you’re going to be a good leader. And that’s one of the things that we say. Well, we’re over time, Daniela. Is there any last thought before we wrap?

Daniela:
The last thought is really kind leadership is not soft leadership. Kindness doesn’t make our leadership role less challenging, but we are no longer feeling alone.

Ivan:
Yeah, I love it. Daniela, you have a couple of websites, dacoach.it and flowxhub.it.

Daniela:
Yes.

Ivan:
Thank you so much for being here. I hope to see you on my next visit to Italy.

Daniela:
Yes, absolutely, and we’ll meet at Global Convention very easily.

Ivan:
Absolutely.

Daniela:
Okay, I’m looking forward.

Ivan:
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:

Okay, well, that’s it for this week. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it very, very much.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

As a new BNI member, you need to look at every aspect of the way you present yourself to your chapter and your prospects. That includes your word choice. Using expressions like “honestly” and “to be honest” can backfire. Someone who’s just met you may wonder whether the rest of what you said was dishonest. They may wonder whether what you’re saying now is dishonest. Just make your statement.

If you have to qualify the statement, Dr. Misner likes to say “In my experience.” Guest Jim Meadows prefers “to be clear” if you’re putting something in simpler words. If you say what you mean and back it up with your actions, people will know you’re honest.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am doing great. I’m at my home in Austin, Texas. I think I’m going to go out into the hot tub this afternoon. September is a great time to go on out into the hot tub.

Priscilla:
Okay, good. And who do you have with us today?

Ivan:
I have somebody who’s been on BNI podcast before. This is his second time on BNI podcast. He was on episode 858, The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask, and that is Jim Meadows. He’s entering his seventh year as a BNI member in Kansas City, Missouri [USA]. He’s been the Vice President, the Education Coordinator, the Chapter Success Coach. He’s a member of the International Board of Advisors. He’s earned a couple of master’s degrees. His four-decade career includes corporate training, leadership development, and change management. He specializes in credit card payment processing for the chiropractic industry. That’s a niche industry, and I love seeing niche industries in BNI, and his BNI experience has inspired a long-term goal, which is earning a DBA at Pennsylvania State University. DBA, I assume, is a Doctorate in Business Administration, Jim?

Jim:
Correct.

Ivan:
Well, welcome back to BNI Podcast. You and Kathy are now happy empty-nesters, I understand, and believe me, I get that totally. So, welcome to BNI Podcast. You’ve got an interesting concept here – A Better Word Than Honesty. So, every new BNI member wants to be a high performer as soon as possible. How is this relevant to them?

Jim:
Excellent question. Couple of things: when you’re new in BNI, you want to become a high performer as soon as possible, and that means everything you do, you need to evaluate. What do you look like on the power of one? Are you keeping up with all your training? How do you present yourself? What’s your deportment like? And we’re going to focus today on how do you use words. Words are very, very important. I think we’ve all been there, either as a perpetrator or a recipient or both. Someone wants to emphasize a point, create goodwill, sound persuasive, close a sale, and then it happens. You use some form of one of these phrases: “to be honest with you,” “in all honesty,” “if I’m really being honest with you.” Now Ivan, I call these phrases honesty validators.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Jim:
Because we believe that by incorporating them into our language, we somehow reinforce the truth of our words.

Ivan:
Right.

Jim:
Unfortunately, all of that belies the presence of honesty.

Ivan:
Yeah, I think we’ve all been guilty of that. I certainly have.

Jim:
Well, there was a 20th century British philosopher of language by the name of Paul Grice. He founded Gricean pragmatics. One of his key tenets is that language is supposed to be a cooperative activity, and it should also be economical. Don’t use words you don’t need. Any time you use a phrase or a word that technically is not required, it could actually be signaling the opposite of your intentions. In this case, if honesty is your default position, then why would you want to signal my default position is dishonesty?

Ivan:
Yeah, yeah. I think again, I think almost all of us have done it. I read a book many, I mean, decades, like 40 years ago, called ***On Writing Well, and he uses a term in there about deobfuscating your writing, to not obfuscate it by adding in words like honesty because it just…. or saying things like “honestly this is the way I feel.” Well, you know, you’re right. Do you often lie when you talk about how you feel? I mean, that’s the issue I think you’re bringing up. Yeah?

Jim:
Absolutely correct.

Ivan:
So how do you solve this dilemma?

Jim:
Yeah, how do we solve it? Well, a couple of points here. Naturally, most people hear this and immediately yell, “No, I’m always honest.” But unfortunately, the unintended message contradicts that affirmation, and it’s always the unintended message received by your audience that has consequences with which you might not be happy. So I asked the question many years ago: Do we have a better word than honesty?

As a lifelong public speaker and writer, I’ve given a lot of thought to this perplexing problem, and I think I’ve arrived at a simple, elegant solution that works very well for me. It might work well for others, too. So I basically maintain that the superior solution is to replace honesty validators with what I’ve termed clarity validators, because these phrases come across so much better. Think about it: “to be clear with you,” “in all clarity,” “if I’m really being clear with you.” You see, people will forgive you for fumbling clarity because anyone can make a mistake. People find it very difficult to forgive you for fumbling honesty, because honesty is a thoughtful, willful choice.

Ivan:
What do you think about using a word like candidly?

Jim:
Candidly is sort of a substitute for honest, for honestly. So I avoid that word as well, because again, if I have to say to you, speaking candidly, I’m already shooting myself in the foot with my character and my integrity.

Ivan:
All right, what about the phrase “in my experience”?

Jim:
I think that’s an excellent one because that comes from a place of your personal professional experience, and that tends to carry much more weight with the audience because now they know they’re hearing something important, and your experience has proven it.

Ivan:
Alright. So if you embrace this clarity validator logic to replace the honesty validators, how do you do that? Explain that further.

Jim:
Yeah, that’s a wild ride. When I made the decision several years ago to replace all of my honesty validators with clarity validators, I had to prepare for a battle in my mind because so many times I would automatically just let it slip in, honestly, or to be honest with you, and then suddenly realize, “Oh, I didn’t want to say it that way.” So you have to really make a concerted effort to think through your linguistic mental library of what’s on autopilot, and get all of those autopilot honesty words out of there, and replace them with clarity words.

Ivan:
And so, generally speaking, you’re saying something like “clearly” or “in all clarity” or the one I like to use oftentimes is “in my experience” is more genuine than saying honestly.

Jim:
Yes, yes, it definitely is, and we also have to just simply remember that practitioners in deception research flag these kinds of words. They’re just not considered nice words if you’re concerned about integrity and how you want to convey who you are as a person.

Ivan:
So you maintain that there’s a vital dynamic between communication, relationship, leadership. Tell us more about that.

Jim:
Well, if you really think about it, your personal leadership and relationship and words are all linked together. Here’s what I’m talking about: your leadership is the foundation for all your success. But what builds your leadership? It’s built by your relationships. So you’ve got to have great relationships, relationships of integrity, that feeds into your leadership, and that is the basis for your success. But let’s go all the way back to relationship. Relationships are fundamentally driven by communication. Communication is the lifeblood of your relationships, so you have to go all the way back to the words you use, how you choose and use those words, if you’re truly wanting to invest in positive relationships. They’re all linked together. It’s a wonderful positive dynamic, and you have to play it that way.

Ivan:
I’m trying to think of times where, because I have purposely not tried to use the phrase “honestly” for the reasons that you’re describing, and I’m trying to think of the things that I’ve replaced it with. Certainly, “in my experience” is one of them. I’ve used a variation of clarity. I’ll say things like, you know, clearly that’s an important issue. Let’s drill down and talk about that. That kind of phrase. Does that kind of thing work better, you think?

Jim:
Absolutely. That’s exactly the kind of wording and verbiage that is only going to help you come across with strong integrity. And again, people will forgive you for making a mistake with clarity, but it’s much more difficult if they feel you’re making mistakes with your honesty, your integrity.

Ivan:
Yeah. So this is a really subtle issue, I think, for a lot of people that they may not see the real power in what you’re talking about. I’m not one of them; I believe you’re right, and I would urge people listening to this to really give this some thought and find other ways of describing or… I think oftentimes it’s used as a filler phrase. It’s almost like the “uh” “well” you know, it’s almost like that. It’s used as a filler phrase, and what you’re pointing out is that there are better filler phrases that are clearer than saying something like “in all honesty.” Is that a good assessment?

Jim:
That’s an excellent assessment. So many people, just because of our culture and the media around us, so many people automatically throw in, “Well, to be honest,” because they didn’t really want to say it if they truly understood what it implies. But it becomes a filler phrase. It becomes “umm” “uhh” – that kind of a thing.

Ivan:
Exactly. Exactly. So I think your point here is well made, and I would urge members to really give this a try. Try to do these things that you’re talking about. We’re out of time. Any last thought before we wrap?

Jim: Certainly, I would simply say to anybody in a conversation, “Hey, if you’re an honest person, then stop speaking in a manner that sends the message ‘My default position is dishonesty,’ clearly.”

Ivan:
Yeah, I’m not sure I would say that to people. But if you’re trying to train them on speaking, maybe if they’re open to it. Otherwise they may not take it real well. I bet, however, you have talked about this on your blog, which is blog.reliableinsights.com. That’s blogreliableinsights.com. Jim, thanks for being on BNI podcast again. I appreciate you.

Jim:
Thank you very much.

Ivan:
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:

Okay, great. I want to thank you both for that interesting conversation. So, thank you so much for that.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

If you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you, as guest Phil Berg likes to say. But before they can want to help you, your referral partners have to trust you to uphold their reputations. Prospects have to feel safe giving you their money.

Don’t introduce doubts about your reliability by showing up late to meetings or complaining about how busy you are. First, get clear on your own goals, how to achieve them, and a realistic timeline. Next, make sure you know why someone would want to hire you.

Only then can you teach people how to talk about you in a way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I just got back in time to do this podcast. I’ve been doing a keynote presentation for an organization in Tampa, and of course, I made sure to stop by BNI and do a quick BNI event there in Tampa as well.

Priscilla:
Oh, that sounds good. So, who do you have on the line today?

Ivan:
I have a really good friend, longtime friend, Phil Berg. Phil has been on four, or this may be his fifth, podcast that we have done together. Phil is married to his childhood sweetheart Jackie, and they’ve been together for 50 years. They have two kids. He’s a former UK and Ireland BNI Assistant National Director. He’s the first person in all of Europe to develop a networking group, a BNI group of over 100 members. He’s been part of BNI for 29 years to date, and he’s an Amazon best-selling author in this book that I’ve heard of called Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint. Actually, Phil and I are co-authors along with Bharat Daga. And of course, he’s an international keynote speaker. Phil, welcome back to BNI Podcast.

Phil:
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back.

Ivan:
Well, I heard you do a presentation in the United Kingdom when I was visiting on building trust or introducing doubt. So, talk to me a little bit about the necessity of relationship building to ensure that you ultimately achieve what you’re trying to achieve, which is building trust.

Phil:
Yeah, I think trust is a necessity, and I think people need to manage their expectations regarding this. So, for example, they join our amazing BNI, and I think it’s like the equivalent of I’ve joined the gymnasium. Why aren’t I getting fit? And for me, you’ve got to build those relationships. I have a saying that if you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you. But the want to, in my eyes, comes first. You know, am I safe to pass you over to someone that needs you? Is my reputation going to be intact? Are you going to, you know, live up to my boast about you, which I think is an element of trust.

Ivan:
So let me understand this. Are you saying that you need to know exactly what you want to achieve, and why, in order to accomplish that?

Phil:
I think for sure, and that’s certainly in our Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint book. That ultimately, if I really don’t know my why… You know, why do I want this person? What do I do for them? Why do they want me? And ultimately, why are you safe to introduce me to them? So I think the why is a very big word, and if you connect all those three, I think all three need to be in place for the introduction to happen comfortably, safely, and trustworthily.

Ivan:
And if you don’t do that, is that how you introduce doubt? Because the doubt is what I found interesting for your topic.

Phil:
Yeah, I think so. I have a saying that people’s perception is their truth until they know the real truth. So, if I have any concerns, and as you know, you say this fantastically. The way we’re seen as doing anything is the way we’re perceived as doing everything, and that’s from your good self. And that stuck with me many years ago.

So if you’re generally arriving somewhere at the last moment and breathing deeply because you’ve just been panicking and rushing, then I figure that that’s how you’re going to be a first impression to the person I recommend you to.

If I say to you, “How are you doing?” and you say, “Oh my goodness, it’s fantastic, but I’m working 20 hours a day.” Even that is like, “Okay, well, that sounds great, but can I introduce you to somebody? Because can you cope with that? Can I trust that you are going to represent my reputation positively?” So I start with doubts. For me, I don’t trust anybody until I can, because I’ve made the mistake of I trust you and then I get let down.

Ivan:
All right, so just for the record, I should never say I’m busier than a one-armed paper hanger.

Phil: (chuckling)
I think there’s a way to say it, actually.  I actually teach people to say, “Hey, you know, it’s fantastic. I’m really, really busy. It’s great. I can always handle more, but it’s really good.”

Ivan:
Yeah, that’s a good answer. That’s a good answer.

Phil:
Yeah.

Ivan:
I actually, I have so many people say to me, “You must be really busy.” I’ve stopped saying, “Yeah, I’m busy.” What I try to do is say, “I have a full life.” Sometimes it’s really, really full, but I have a full life, which is to me a very much more positive way of describing it.

Phil:
I agree, and I think a lot depends on what the person wants when asked that question. If, for example, you don’t want anything more, then I think your answer is beautiful. But for people in business, there is an alleged saying that the number one reason people don’t close a deal is because they don’t ask for the order.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Phil:
So likewise, you don’t want to tell everyone how crazy hours you’re working, which stops people giving you the business opportunity because they’re just worried that are you going to phone someone back in an appropriate amount of time? Can you fulfill their need, or are you just going to squeeze this in? Am I going to be the one to give you a heart attack?

Ivan:
So you also talked about, at the conference, about knowing what you need to do, being able to achieve what you want, have realistic expectations of a timeline. You want to talk about that a little bit?

Phil:
Yeah, I think I said it. I think it’s the equivalent of going to a gymnasium and expecting to lose my tummy, which I’m not doing. I’m expecting to lose my tummy after the first session. I think there has to be a realistic expectation. However, as per our book, you can speed the timeline up. I mean, one-to-ones are a very, very effective way to, if you like, get people to understand you more on a personal level. As you know through BNI, we have the GAINS profile, and sometimes even answering that myself… I remember when I was first a member, and the G stands for goals, and it was okay, Phil, What are your goals? And honestly, I struggled because it was like, well, actually, Phil, what are my goals? And if I’m not clear with them, how can anybody help me?

Ivan:
Exactly.

Phil:
I think it was really, really important to know not just why do I want an introduction to that person, but why do they want me? And I think when we understand that we’re all solution providers, then I want people to phone somebody up and say, “Oh my gosh, you know, I’ve got to introduce you to Phil because I know he can help you with this challenge.”

Ivan:
Yeah. Well, let me let me throw a little curveball at you here, Phil.

Phil:
Great.

Ivan:
The title for this is “Building Trust or Introducing Doubt.”

Phil:
Yeah.

Ivan:
In just a couple of sentences, what do you think is the key element to that title for the listeners?

Phil:
I would say being what others need you to be is the answer that comes straight into my head. So, for example, you could think really well of yourself, and yet actually others don’t feel well of you. So I always say, you know, it’s one of my Bergisms, that reputation is what people say about us when we are not there. People work very, very hard to purchase your product or your service. Do they feel safe and comfortable to give [you] the money and know that they’re going to be happy at the end of it?

Ivan:
So it’s really sort of your perception versus your reputation?

Phil:
Yeah, I think my perception may not be their truth.

Ivan:
Yeah, yeah, good. Well, any last thoughts before we wrap up, Phil?

Phil:
I’d say make sure you know what you want. Make sure you know the activity to achieve it, and I think it’s very, very important to educate those around you and start prioritizing. You know, sometimes we wait for results because we don’t actually approach the people that could help us first. So have a look at who you know can help you and make sure they understand what you’re looking for, and particularly, and I’m passionate about this: how to talk about you in a way and a simple way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you.

Ivan:
Yeah. Phil, thanks for being back on BNI Podcast. For anyone that wants more information on Phil, go to www.philberg.coach. That’s Phil, P-H-I-L-B as in boy, E-R-G. dot coach. Phil, thanks again for being on BNI Podcast.

Phil:
My privilege, my honor. Look after yourself.

Ivan:
And by the way, thank you for everything you did with the book Networking is a Marathon. You’re a great co-author.

Phil:
Oh, you’re lovely. Thank you so much. Privileged.

Ivan:
Back to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
All right, I think that’s it for this week. Thank you both so much for the great information.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Note: This is a rebroadcast of Episode 748, first published on March 9, 2022. Some links and offers may no longer be valid.

To receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral. To do that, you need to make sure they know these four things.

Listen to Episode 451 and read “Why You Do What You Do Is Your Key to Success” for more about Emotionally Charged Connections.

What have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share your answers in the comments.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan: I am at home in Austin, Texas this week. And, you know, most of our podcasts, almost all of our podcasts, land a post on Wednesday morning. And many of you may not know this, but for the last couple of years, every Wednesday, I have Sam Horn come over in the morning. Sam wrote the book, “POP!” where she mentioned BNI, and that was before I knew Sam. And she also wrote the book, “Someday is Not a Day in the Week.” I talk about Sam and quote her in a number of places. She comes over every Wednesday morning after this podcast goes live. And we do what we call “Writing Wednesday.” But honestly, Priscilla, it’s oftentimes ‘talking’ Wednesday. We talk. We talk a lot about writing, but we talk a lot. And today’s topic is The Willing Conversation.

Priscilla:
Uh huh.

Ivan:
And so it’s about talking to people. Do you remember, Priscilla, when you were a kid how fun magnets were to play with?

Priscilla:
Yes.

Ivan:
Yeah, I loved magnets. And depending on which way you turn the magnet, they were either attracted or repelled by one another. And as an adult, we may find ourselves feeling six years old again when we make a phone call to a referral, who turns out to not be a referral at all. And similar to a magnet that’s turned the wrong direction, you’re not being embraced in that conversation, you’re being resisted. So the referral you were given that should have been a warm introduction quickly turns into a cold call.

We all want good referrals, people who want to talk to us. We want to give and receive referrals that are willing conversations about the products and services that we have to offer. And to receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral.

So here are four tips that you can follow that will help you with those willing conversations.

The first tip is The Needs Assessment. It’s really your responsibility to be very clear; it’s our responsibility – I’ll talk about it with me as well. It’s our responsibility to be very clear and specific with our referral partners about what constitutes a good referral. And this is a combination of an ideal prospect profile and the problems that we can solve for them. Because it’s not just about what you do, it’s about what solutions you have for the people that you’re working with. It’s about what Andy Bounds calls the AFTERs —what are things going to look like after you’ve worked with them.

So, the needs assessment really is an example of you clearly defining your target market. So for a corporate coach, as an example, you might say that a small to medium sized company with fewer than 100 employees, closely held business – family owned business, regional with locations, you know, local in a state or two, and that they as a coach provide themselves on higher than average retention, getting companies to have higher than average retention for employees. And they may be in a competitive industry and as an executive coach, you can help them gain an advantage. So, you know, you want to communicate your target market very clearly to the people in your BNI group.

Ivan:
You also want to describe your Unique Selling Proposition. So do you have dozens or hundreds of competitors in your marketplace? You probably do. And that means that your unique selling proposition, or USP, is really important because it allows you to stand out among your competition. Your USP is a brief description of the purpose of your business. It’s stated in the most concise and compelling way possible in order to help others understand the unique value of what it is that you do. So your unique selling proposition tells people the type of client you like to work with and the benefits that you can provide for them.

And what you want to say is what makes what makes you stand out and why that makes you stand out. What do you do that your competition can’t touch? At the very least, figure out what you do better than your rivals and go beyond simply saying ‘good customer service.’ That’s really part of your unique selling proposition – what it is that you have that your competition doesn’t.

The third thing is Why Are You in Business? What’s your passion? Why do you go to work? Unfortunately, one of the most popular answers to the question is ‘to make money.’ That’s the worst answer a business professional can ever give. You’ve got to be able to describe why it is that you do what it is that you do. Why are you in your profession? How do you change lives? You know, that’s what the referral partners in your business group, in your BNI chapter, that’s what they want to know. Remember, passion really is referable. You need to go deep and identify your why if you want to truly connect with people on a personal level.

The fourth thing is, what is your Emotionally Charged Connection? Your emotionally charged connection, or ECC, is a phrase leading to a story that your referral partners can recite when referring to you. So for those of you who want to know what my ECC is, what my emotionally charged connection is, go to episode number 451: Why Do You Do What You Do? And in that episode, I shared my emotionally charged connection and why that was so incredibly important to me, and why I do what it is that I do in business. It really stems from that podcast, 451, the experience that I have, from the podcast that I talk about.

We all have an ECC, it was something that happened to you, often during childhood, that lays the groundwork for who you are as a person. It can be positive; it can be negative. Many people are not consciously aware of their emotionally charged connection yet, it’s the reason that we get up in the morning and do the things that we do every day. It’s driven by the heart, not by the checkbook, or by the head; there’s a big difference. And I’m going to also include a link in here where you can read about my emotionally charged connection. I did a blog on the same topic and so I’ll have a link here for that blog as well. The bottom line is that the better you become at sharing the information in these tips that I’ve just given you with your BNI group, the more likely you are to feel like the magnet that attracts, instead of the magnet that repels. Your referral partners will be able to give you good referrals that lead to the willing conversation.

Well, I have a question for everyone when we’re done here. Priscilla, do you have any thoughts before we wrap up?

Priscilla:
No, but I haven’t heard this before and I really like what you’re talking about. I don’t remember hearing about the emotionally charged connection. Is that what it is?

Ivan:
Yeah, well, you were there for me. It was episode number 451.

Priscilla:
I just made a note. I’m gonna go back and listen to it.

Ivan:
Go back and listen to it. It was the story — you’ll remember it as soon as I give you a little heads-up. There’s a story about my teacher, Mr. Romero, and asking who wants to be on the student council.

Priscilla:
Aha, yeah, I remember that.

Ivan:
Yeah. And that was my emotionally charged connection. Because after that experience, which I’m not going to restate here on this podcast, go back and listen to 451. After that experience with this teacher, who, by the way, changed my life in many ways. After that experience, I realized many years later, that almost every business I’ve ever been drawn to and ever started was about inspiring people or providing people with an opportunity to be their best. And that’s really what BNI is, isn’t it? It’s about giving people an opportunity. You know, you joined BNI, you gotta work.

Priscilla:
Yeah.

Ivan:
And I talked about this in the podcast, you know, in 451, it’s not like it was just a gift and I walked away and became successful. It was a gift that I had to work at. It gave me an opportunity, the gift was an opportunity, and that opportunity I had to work really hard at. And from that opportunity, I achieved the level of success in high school. And from that, I realized many, many years later, not at the moment, that that experience led me to try to give other people that experience, to try to give them an opportunity to achieve success. And that’s really what BNI is about. So, go listen to episode 451 everyone.

Priscilla:
Yeah, I plan to.

Ivan:
It’s a powerful story. It’s a true story. So for those of you who are listening to this podcast, let me ask you a question. I read all of the questions that get posted here, or comments that get posted here on BNI podcast.

My question is, what have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share them here on the BNI podcast. That’s everything I’ve got, Priscilla, over to you.

Priscilla:
That was great. Thank you so much, Ivan.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Persistence becomes stubbornness when you keep trying the exact thing that didn’t work before. Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear. Refine your message, improve your product, test different approaches.

Learn to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. Pivoting isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. Hold the Vision. Improve the Execution.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
This is like the longest spell I’ve been home in quite a long time. I went to American Airlines’ Admirals Club on my last trip, and the person at the desk said, “Welcome back, Dr. Misner. Your office is right here.” This is the Admirals Lounge, because I’ve been there so many times.

Priscilla:
Oh my gosh! Yeah, in the airport, you mean?

Ivan:
Yeah, in the airport. That’s right. So I now have 2.6 million miles in American Airlines alone.

Priscilla:
What?

Ivan:
No joke. 2.6 million.

Priscilla:
What are you going to do with all those miles?

Ivan:
Well, I don’t have that many left. I’ve used a lot of them, but that’s how many miles I’ve traveled.

Priscilla:
Wow.

Ivan:
I probably have close to a million actually in the bank, and I use [them] mostly for my kids.

Priscilla:
Yeah, it’s good that y they can use them. They must love it.

Ivan:
It’s a first world problem, having them.

Priscilla:
Yeah, right, right, right, right.

Ivan:
All right, we’ve got a fun topic.

Priscilla:
Okay, good.

Ivan:
The difference between persistence and stubbornness. So one of the questions I get asked a lot is about persistence. Many people know that my first major book, and I’ve talked about it in this podcast, was rejected by 44 publishers. Forty-four publishers, and this is back before the Excel spreadsheet. And I literally had a hand-drawn sheet of paper with the publisher’s name and when I sent it, when it was rejected. I had 44 publishers before the 45th one finally said yes, and that was for my first major book, The World’s Best-Known Marketing Secret. And today, that book has sold hundreds of thousands of copies, and it’s in its fourth edition. It has been translated into roughly a dozen languages, and yet it was rejected by 44 publishers.

Priscilla:
Wow!

Ivan:
So the question for me is always the same: When does persistence become stubbornness? And at what point is being a dog with a bone too much? Because I tell people I’m a dog with a bone, but there is a point where you know it can be stubbornness, and you have to have discernment here. So that’s a fair question. And here’s how I look at it: persistence isn’t about refusing to quit; it’s about refusing to quit the right way. Now, when I was rejected 44 times, I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. That’s important. I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. I was learning 44 times. Every rejection taught me something. Sometimes it was about the proposal, the letter that I put on the manuscript. Sometimes it was about the positioning. Sometimes it was about the audience that I wanted to have the book focus on and describe that in a letter. Sometimes it was simply about finding a publisher who truly understood the vision of the book.

Because if you think back into the early ’90s, there were no books written on networking. I wrote the first book… I did the first book ever written on business networking. So a lot of publishers were like, yeah, this is a fad. That’s what I used to get with the media, by the way: “This BNI thing is a fad,” and that’s certainly what I got. It’s now a fad with, at this moment, over 11,820 chapters at this moment. Quite a fad, and it’s a fad that’s lasted 42, almost 42 years.

So, what I’m talking about is, you know, the difference between persistence and stubbornness. Stubbornness says, “I’ll keep doing exactly what I’m doing until someone finally agrees with me.” Persistence says, “I’m committed to the destination, but I’m willing to improve the journey.” Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear.  And I got some difficult feedback in my submissions, and I changed the manuscript over those 44 attempts. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. Those are important. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. It’s not about just stubbornness; it’s about persistence, but a willingness to alter what you’re doing in that persistence. And with every attempt, you become a little bit better than you were before.

Now, let me be clear: you shouldn’t accept every piece of advice you receive. If I had listened to everyone who told me networking was a fad, BNI would have never existed. The trick is learning to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Don’t abandon a great vision because someone doesn’t understand it, but don’t become so emotionally attached to your approach that you refuse to improve it.

I’ve often said, and I just said in a recent podcast that we did, hold the vision, not the obstacles. That’s really important. Hold the vision, not the obstacles. I believe that was the recent podcast with Tom Fleming, and it’s a quote that I used in many of my books, starting with The 3rd Paradigm — hold the vision, not the obstacles. Obstacles–they’ll always be there. They were there 42 years ago. They’re there today. They’re going to be there 10, 15, 20 years from now. The obstacles may change. The marketplace will change. Technology will most definitely change. People will come and go throughout your life. There were obstacles yesterday, obstacles today. There’ll be obstacles tomorrow.

If you focus on the obstacles, you’ll stop moving. If you hold on to the vision, you’ll find another path. Sometimes the answer isn’t to quit. Sometimes it isn’t even push harder. Sometimes the answer is to pivot, and we’ve certainly seen pivoting a lot with the increase of technology, the internet, AI, other technologies. Certainly, the mobile phone in the 1980s was a pivot point. So a pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. I’m going to repeat that: pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. It means keeping your eyes fixed on where you’re going, while being flexible enough to change how you get there.

So looking back, I’m grateful. I’m actually grateful for those first 44 publishers who said no. They forced me to become a better author. They forced me to create a stronger proposal. They forced me to communicate the value of the book more clearly. I ended up with a publisher that eventually, not with that book, but a couple of books later, made me a New York Times best-selling author. So I found the right publisher who believed in me, and believed in my vision, and he helped make me a New York Times best-selling author. Without those previous rejections, I probably wouldn’t have written a book that has endured for decades. I mean, I wrote that book in 1994, so it has literally endured for decades.

So here’s my rule: persistence isn’t doing the same thing over and over. Persistence is getting better every time you try. If you’re learning, if you’re improving, and you’re adapting, you’re being persistent. If you’re simply repeating yesterday’s mistakes, you’re not being persistent. You’re just being repetitive. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. I want to repeat that. Stay committed to the vision, but stay flexible about the path. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. If the market keeps telling you no, you don’t ignore it. You interpret it. Don’t confuse rejection with direction. Rejection tells you something needs to change. It doesn’t necessarily tell you the dream is wrong. So here’s a new Ivanism for you, Priscilla.

Priscilla: (chuckling)

Ivan:
Okay, it’s a variation on Hold the Vision, Not the Obstacles. I say Hold the Vision, Improve the Execution. Hold the vision, improve the execution, and that is a healthy way to be a dog with a bone, and to understand the difference between persistence and stubbornness. That’s my message for today, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
Great, I’m impressed that you were able to kind of bounce back after so many disappointments. Do you have anything to say about that?

Ivan:
Yeah, there were a lot of disappointments. I mean, every time I got a letter, I was like really excited when it came back. If it came back with a thick envelope, I knew it was a rejection because they didn’t even want to keep the manuscript. They sent it back to me. But you know, when I got the individual letters, I was excited. Is this it? Is this it? And 44 of them, it wasn’t.

And one in particular, a publisher was in Los Angeles. It was a major publisher, and they invited me to their office. And I went there, and they said, “Tell me more. We’ve seen your manuscript. Tell me more about the book.” I told them more about the book. I was really excited, and right there, right then, sitting in that moment, they said, “Yeah, no, we’ll pass.”

Priscilla:
Oh, God!

Ivan:
And I remember thinking, “I’m never going to be an author.”

Priscilla:
You never what?

Ivan:
I mean, I thought that for a moment — I’m never going to be an author. This was my, this was my really big chance.

Priscilla:
Yeah.

Ivan:
And I walked out of that meeting, and I was like, oh heck no! That may not have been the words I used. Might have been, oh bad word, bad word, no, um, no.

This is a good book. People need this information. They need to know how to build their business through referrals, and I’m going to keep going. I’m going to listen to the advice that they gave. One of the bits of the advice they gave was that I had too much of my doctoral dissertation in it, and it was a little too academic. So, okay, that was a fair comment. And so, I pulled some of the academia out of it, redid the manuscript again, and resubmitted it. Actually, ended up resubmitting it just a few more times before I got my first yes.

Priscilla:
Mm hmm.

Ivan:
Well, I know we’re out of time, Priscilla, but that was a great question. Thanks for asking.

Priscilla:
Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for letting us know how you dealt with that. Okay, well, I think that’s it. Thank you so much for the great information.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Envision yourself standing in a field. About 30 feet away is a 30-foot-high wall. That wall is your vision for your business and your life. Ten feet short of your vision is a wall of obstacles. If you can’t see the vision over the obstacles, you get discouraged and give up. Tom Fleming joins the podcast to show you how to grow your vision.

Come to BNI membership with a vision, and hold that vision to overcome any obstacles you encounter. That means engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance, one-to-ones, passing referrals, and bringing visitors. Tom’s high-achieving vision as a BNI member is

Build a vision for your relationship and your business with every conversation you have in BNI. Try it for six months and see how your results grow with your vision.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
Lady Priscilla, it’s wonderful to hear you. Greg Davies from one of the previous podcasts called you Lady Priscilla, I love that. So I might use that moniker every now and then.

Priscilla: (chuckling)
Okay.

Ivan:
You’re not a big fan, but I might use it. I am in this hot Austin weather. We looked at my swimming pool gauge, and my swimming pool, not heated, is over 90 degrees [F].

Priscilla:
Oh.

Ivan:
So it’s like a sauna. It’s hot.

Priscilla:
You can just turn it into your bathtub.

Ivan:
Yeah, pretty much, yeah, absolutely. So I have a guest today, Tom Fleming. Tom has been on my podcast five previous times. Not too many people have been on the podcast five times. That should tell you something about my opinion of Tom’s contributions to the organization. He served in various leadership roles in BNI, including training owners to track more referrals, from 1996 to roughly 2024, and he continues to impact people’s businesses and lives. He’s now the founder of the Vision Institute. Tom works with business owners to craft a vision for their business and their life, which I think is really important. Within this framework, Tom also supports people with creating a financial vision for themselves with an emphasis on retirement planning. So it’s our goal to make a living and create a life, according to Tom. Tom loves supporting people with creating creating that life. Tom is in Nancy Short’s [BNI] region, and she’s lucky to have him as part of her region. Tom, welcome back to BNI Podcast.

Tom:
Well, thank you so much, Ivan. And yes, here in Florida, our pool is a little over 90 degrees as well.

Ivan: (chuckling)
All right, we’re in the same boat, and/or pool actually.

Priscilla: (chuckling)

Ivan:
So we’re going to include a diagram in this podcast so people can see what we’re talking about. Could you explain the diagram that’s in here?

Tom:
Absolutely, I’d like the listeners to envision themselves just standing in an open field, and about 30 feet away from them is a 30-foot wall, and that wall represents their vision. Their vision of their business and/or their life, if you will. And about 20 feet out, 10 feet short of your vision, is a wall of obstacles, perceived obstacles, if you will. And for some of us, sometimes those perceived obstacles are higher in effect. Therefore, we can’t even see the accomplishment of our vision, and that obviously makes us feel overwhelmed and maybe even depressed and hopeless.

But there is a strategy for people in that situation, and the strategy is to decrease their perceived obstacles. And where I shine is in increasing the vision that they have for their business and their life. And I know you have an opinion on this, Ivan.

Ivan:
And it’s congruent with yours, I believe.

Tom:
And yours is don’t even pay attention to the obstacles?

Ivan:
Well, no, no. My perspective on this is: focus on the vision, not the obstacles. The obstacles will always be there. Obstacles were there for BNI in 1985. Obstacles are part of BNI today, obstacles will be around, you know, 20 years from now. So it’s hold the vision.

Tom:
Mmm.

Ivan:
This is my philosophy: hold the vision, not the obstacles. Work through, around, over, under, whatever. Work through the obstacles and focus on the vision.

Tom:
I love it. I love it absolutely. And obviously, people are interested in, “Well, Tom, how does this apply to BNI?”

Ivan:
Yeah.

Tom:
And I think a lot of members come into BNI with, well, we’ll see what happens.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Tom:
And my thought is, let’s enter our BNI membership with a vision. I know many people who generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from BNI, and I know you know many people who generate millions of dollars, yen, pesos from BNI on an annual basis. I think we have to hold that vision in our mind to overcome what people perceive as obstacles in BNI. Meaning engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance and one-to-ones and passing referrals, and bringing visitors.

Ivan:
No, I agree. What else?

Tom:
So really again, it’s about people generating a vision of getting your “twos” or your “threes” on a weekly basis. Investing in three one-to-ones per week, three referrals per week, maybe; two or three visitors per month. Because I think that level of engagement-people being on the field instead of in the stands-that’s when they are going to get results, given the philosophy of Givers Gain.

Ivan:
Yeah. Can I just say — you mentioned three one-to-ones in a week? I think that’ll burn people out. I’m not opposed to it, but I want people to understand that networking is a marathon, not a sprint. And I would just be ecstatic if people did four a month. Ecstatic. And the numbers show that four a month will double the number of referrals they both give and receive. The average member listening says, “Three?” Three is a big ask, and I don’t want members to burn themselves out. But look, you ran an incredibly successful region, so we can disagree slightly and still be in the same ballpark.

Tom:
Well, I also mentioned getting your twos, which is yes more aggressive than what you’re sharing. My point is… now, I tend to be a little bit of an overachiever.

Ivan:
You think? Yes, yes you are, Tom, and that’s a good thing. I wish I had more overachievers like you.

Tom:
Got it. But you know when I get engaged in something, I’m going to play full out, and I think if a lot of members who had the type of personality or behavior that I have, I think if they engage at that, in that level, realizing that BNI is part of their marketing plan, it’s not something they just belong to, it’s part of their marketing plan, I think their results would double, triple, quadruple. I might recommend to people: try it out for six months — see how it goes.

Ivan:
Okay, and then what?

Tom:
Well, I think this model also applies to conversations in BNI. For instance, if I’m meeting with a fellow member, maybe someone who’s in my Contact Sphere, I need to share with them and sell them on the fact that being in a relationship with me is a fantastic investment.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Tom: 
And we want to build a vision in their mind of what’s possible if we work together. I don’t know if it’s in print anymore, Business by Referral?

Ivan:
It’s not, but much of what is in that book is in the fourth edition of The World’s Best Known Marketing Secret.

Tom:
Excellent, excellent. That book is a goldmine of networking strategy when it comes to 15 ways others can promote you, which that number may have changed; 18 tactics to motivate your sources. I’m going back to my time — back in the day, if you will. But using those strategies to build a vision in the mind of your referral partners of how you can work together to build visibility, credibility, profitability with each other. Again, I just think it’s a goldmine.

Ivan:
Yeah, and that’s where VCP came from, was that book.

Tom:
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I think bigger picture too. The model just relates to life and business. I think if people have a very small vision of their business, I don’t know what level of engagement they’re willing to put forth towards their business. Versus if we support people with thinking through what’s possible with one’s business, I do believe it…

Ivan:
Doesn’t this go back to your original conversation about the obstacles? I think people see the obstacles in front of them, and they lose sight of the vision behind those obstacles.

Tom:
Yes.

Ivan:
The obstacles they’re always there. I’ve never done anything in business that didn’t have obstacles. And so the key is, like I said earlier, to work around, over, through, under, whatever it takes — hold the vision, not the obstacles. And when you can do that, then you’re going to be successful. I see BNI people that just get caught up in the obstacles, and what happens when they get caught up in the obstacles is that’s all they talk about. And if that’s all they talk about, they become experts at the obstacles…

Tom:
Absolutely.

Ivan:
…and not experts at the vision. And so, what people have to do — and that’s why I say hold the vision, not the obstacle, because you want to be an expert at the vision. And the more you can get people to focus on the vision that you’ve got, the more successful that you, as an individual, that a chapter is.

Tom:
I think your wisdom that you just shared is just kind of a great way to wrap this conversation up.

Ivan:
Yep, I agree. Is there anything you’d add? I love your graphic. I’ll make sure it gets put into the podcast. You’ve been a great participant in the BNI program for many, many years, and I appreciate everything that you have contributed over the years. Any last thought?

Tom:
No, just other than thank you for allowing me to continue to contribute via this platform. Whenever I have something that I feel will give members an opportunity to think through a different model or a strategy, I’m happy to contribute and I thank you.

Ivan:
My pleasure. Your Vision to Success, Tom Fleming. Tom, thanks for being on. Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
Okay, thank you both. That’s great information.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

When he became a BNI Executive Director, Greg Davies-Polaine made it his job to be the go-to person for chapters in his region. Every time he visited a chapter, he gave them this weekly presentation:

Hi, my name is Greg Davies-Polaine. I’m your Executive Director. My whole job is ensuring that you get the most value from your BNI membership as you possibly would like to receive. If you’re looking to place a product or service this week that isn’t represented in this room, don’t jump onto an online directory. Don’t jump onto an online purchasing platform. Reach out to me first.

If I can place that order with another BNI member that you just haven’t met yet, that revenue will stay local. It will stay in a local community and go around five to seven times before it inevitably disappears off into a national chain. And everyone it touches, it will have a positive influence on, and a rising tide really does lift all boats. So remember, Don’t Google, Greggle.

Even if you’re not an Executive Director, you can become the go-to person for your chapter and your clients, the person they go to before they Google. The podcasts listed below help show you how.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:  
I am still in the sweltering heat of Austin, Texas. I need to learn to leave Austin in August. I don’t know why I haven’t figured that out yet.

Priscilla:
Okay. And who do you have as a guest today?

Ivan:  
I have a good friend of mine who’s been to my home, Greg Davies-Polaine. Greg’s done a couple of podcasts with me as Greg Davies, and since gotten married and has hyphenated his name, which we had a long conversation about before we actually got on the podcast, which I think is interesting.

Greg is known as the Storyfella. He uses his passion for telling stories to help communities and individuals thrive. He says working hard is sometimes unavoidable and necessary. I agree with that. But if we understand why we’re doing it and surround ourselves with people who inspire us to be better, it’s worth the effort. I agree with that as well.

He’s a best-selling author. He’s done two books with me, Infinite Giving and Infinite Legacy. Both were best-selling books. He’s a multi-award-winning Director of BNI and an international inspirational speaker. He still finds time to drum with the mighty Goat Patrol, I have no idea what that is. Off air, we should talk about that, Greg. And he is a not-so-secret Disney fan, and I got to tell you, I love Disney’s customer service theories a lot.

So, Greg, this is your fourth visit to BNI podcast. The last two were on membership, and I think let me look here at episode 897 and 898. It was so much great content we had to break it into two.

Greg:
Yeah, it was an absolute privilege, and thank you for having me on. Good evening, Lady Priscilla. I believe we need to say, Lady Priscilla, now you are an absolute BNI institution, and Dr. Misner, thank you so much for having me on.

Ivan: (chuckling)
Lady Priscilla. I like that. I’m sure Priscilla loves that too. That’s really nice.

Priscilla: (chuckling)

Ivan:  
Nobody’s ever called me Sir Ivan, but that’s fine. I can live with that. Lady Priscilla. Yeah, thank you. So, Greg, our topic today is an interesting title: Don’t Google, instead, Greggle. So, I think that’s about really becoming the go-to person for your network. So, talk about becoming the go-to person for your network.

Greg:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s all about positioning. I’ve been in BNI 20 plus years now, and like a lot of people, when I joined, I joined close to where I live, close to where I grew up, and where my business was based. So I was able to refer my clients, my suppliers, my family members, my friends, my social spheres, those I met at the school gates, all those kind of things to members. And I would also go out and find really good specific referrals for people.

When I decided that my path lay within BNI and I wanted to step up and help people across the region, my [local] region wasn’t available to me. So the region that I now run, London Southeast Bromley, and Croydon, which I’m immensely proud of what the members have achieved, is about an hour to an hour and a half drive. So when I walked in there, I didn’t have any established network. My business was now my members, so they were my customers, and wherever I could, I pivoted my supply chain to BNI members.

But I needed to find a way of adding value to my members each and every week, and that’s where the title comes from. That was my strap line for my weekly presentation. So I think the best way of explaining it is just for me to do a very quick weekly presentation. So I would stand up each week and say, “Hi, my name is Greg Davies-Polaine. I’m your Executive Director. My whole job is ensuring that you get the most value from your BNI membership as you possibly would like to receive. If you’re looking to place a product or service this week that isn’t represented in this room, don’t jump onto an online directory. Don’t jump onto an online purchasing platform. Reach out to me first. If I can place that order with another BNI member that you just haven’t met yet, that revenue will stay local. It will stay in a local community and go around five to seven times before it inevitably disappears off into a national chain. And everyone it touches, it will have a positive influence on, and a rising tide really does lift all boats. So remember, Don’t Google, Greggle.

Ivan:  
I love that. That’s hysterical, and I didn’t do it nearly as humorously and creatively as you. But when I started BNI, I did in fact send out a snail-mail letter that said, “You know, if you’re looking for a referral in one of these professions, contact me.” It was long before the internet, and many people, in fact, started contacting me and wanted to be connected. So it was really about becoming a connector in the community. But I like Greggle better.

Greg:
Absolutely. I mean, I remember the podcast. I’ve been rerunning the podcast again, and you’ve had some fabulous ones. I think in the one you’re referring to, you use the term Rolodex, which you then have to explain.

Ivan:  
Yes, which is… for the Gen Z people, it’s not a watch.

Greg:
It is definitely not a watch. No, it’s like a printed-out version of the contacts file on your mobile phone. That’s what a Rolodex was.

Ivan:  
Oh, and what I love, Greg, is that you listen to the podcast. Too many directors don’t listen to the podcast, so I’m impressed that you know which one I was talking about.

Greg:
They are an incredible resource, and actually, what was really powerful about that was the fact that you didn’t list all of your members’ names, the member names, and the phone number. You said, “If you need anyone, please get in touch with me. I insist you reach out.”

Ivan:  
And yeah, I just listed the professions, not the names.

Greg:
Yeah, and that really is the key about positioning yourself as the go-to person in your network. So, what I’ve just done there with the weekly presentation — I know we have Ambassadors and Directors at all levels who listen to this podcast regularly – and I would pivot your weekly presentations, if you haven’t got a specific message to deliver, when you get the opportunity, say something along those lines in your words. And then people will come to you and ask you to connect people across regions, across counties and countries, and internationally. I’ve had all of those wonderful things.

But in terms of membership, how would you position yourself in the middle of your referral network? Well, we’ve covered a lot of them on the podcast previously. There was a great one with Dawn Lyons about referral layering, where she talks about using multiple referral generation systems. But there are some really, really simple ones that I make no apology about going over again because it will be the first time that some people have heard them. It will be the 10th time that others [hear it], but this will be the time that they act upon them.

So the really simple one for me is: whenever you’re interacting with a customer or a supplier, whether it be over a WhatsApp voice message, whether it be old school, actually on the phone or face-to-face. Once you’ve concluded all of your business, just ask them the question, “Is there anything else I can help you with today?” It’s so powerful, and it actually confuses people. “Well, what do you mean? I’ve just placed an order with you,” and then you can go on and say, “Look, I work with 20, 30, 40, 50, 100, 200 local businesses I see week in, week out. I know them. I like them. I trust them.

If you’re looking for some help, either in your home or your business, please come to me first. I’ll be able to recommend you someone who I trust that lives by the same ethics and morals in their business that I do. That’s why I know them, and they’ll look after you in the same way that I look after you. So that’s one really, really easy way about positioning yourself in your network.

Email signature. We’ve heard loads about…

Ivan:  
Can I just add something to that, Greg? I’ve seen a number of members who’ve actually handed out their business card holder for those countries that are still using business card holders, and as they’re filling out whatever paperwork, they say, you know, take a look through this, and if there’s any professions in here that you see [and are interested in], let me know because I…”  and then it’s the same speech that you just gave, but you’re actually showing them business cards of other people.

Greg:
Absolutely. And since the Great Pause, when we kind of took away the tactility around BNI, we took away business card folders and business cards, and I’ve noticed now, people started using those again. So speak to your chapter leadership. Speak to your regional leadership. Get these business card holders back. They are an incredible tool for generating referrals ongoing.

Ivan:  
We’re almost out of we’re almost out of time. Do you have some other practical tips for generating referrals, or was that all you have?

Greg:
Yeah, absolutely. Do your email signature. Make sure that there is something along those lines. If you need anything, please reach out. Replicate what Ivan did with a Rolodex, but do it regularly on social media. These are a list of professions I work with week-in week-out. If you need them, reach out to me.

And I’m just going to end very, very quickly. I have people message me now saying “I need a Greggle.” I’ve become a noun, which is wonderful.

Ivan: (chuckling)

Greg:
And I just want to read this to you. “Morning, all. I’m sitting here at a wedding venue on the shores of Loch Lomond, preparing for my daughter’s wedding this afternoon, reflecting on the fact that 25 years ago, when I joined BNI, she was six years old. And I just wanted to thank you all, both past and present members, for the support you have given both my business but also my family throughout that time.”

Now I’m reading that because three weeks before, Martin Greggled me and asked if I could find a videographer to go to Scotland, which is the other end of the country, and to live broadcast his daughter’s wedding because two elderly relatives couldn’t make it. We found someone through our contacts, and they live-streamed that wedding. So the people who couldn’t be in the room got to witness that incredible day. That is how powerful becoming the go-to part of your network can become.

Ivan:  
That’s an incredible story, Greg. Or should I say, Greggle? That’s an incredibly powerful story. Any last comment before we wrap up?

Greg:
All I would say is, if anyone needs any products or services in London Southeast, don’t Google, Greggle.

Ivan:  
Oh, Greg, I really truly loved working with you on the previous two books. There’s a chance we might be working on a third book. You and Julian are a blast to work with, and I want to thank you for being on the BNI Podcast again.

Greg:
Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Ivan:  
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
Okay, well, that was really nice. I liked that podcast very much.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Shirley Towne returns to the podcast to introduce the BNI Foundation Ambassadors program. Ambassadors are BNI members who represent the BNI Foundation in their chapters and in their regions. By visiting other chapters as a Foundation Ambassador, you grow your own business by helping the BNI Foundation. Ambassadors also help bring more nonprofits into BNI through Givers Gain Grants and other initiatives that support nonprofits.

To become a BNI Foundation Ambassador, register to join the next informational call at bit.ly/FoundationAmbassador. Upcoming calls are also announced on the BNI Foundation Facebook page.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am at home in Austin, Texas today. [It’s] the sweltering heat of August for Austin, and I’m just thankful that the deity of your choice made swimming pools and air conditioning.

Priscilla: (chuckling)
Oh, that’s great! And who do you have on as a guest today?

Ivan:
I have somebody who’s been on the podcast now five times. Five times, Shirley Towne. Shirley has done many different podcasts for the BNI Podcast, including one of my favorites, podcast number 730. And let’s put a link in the podcast for it. I love it because Shirley talked about the fact that she used to pay, as I recall — Shirley, correct me if I’m wrong, it was $5,000 a month for yellow page advertising.

Shirley:
That is so correct.

Ivan:
Yeah, and the Gen Z people are going to go, “What’s the yellow pages?” But just advertising, and the BNI membership ended up, you know, making more money than the advertising, and so the whole point of that podcast is: if BNI cost you $5,000 a month, would you treat it differently? And I just love that concept. It’s one of my favorite podcasts. Go listen to it, episode number 730, done five years ago. Welcome back, Shirley. This is your sixth visit to BNI Podcast.

Shirley:
Honored to be here.

Ivan:
Yeah, you’re such a great Director. You joined BNI in 2013. You represented ADT Home Services, and you brought a lot of passion, obviously, to building your chapter. In 2017, you stepped into the role of [BNI] Executive Director, and I’m so glad you did. You’re the Executive Director for BNI SC Midlands [South Carolina, USA], where you really quickly made a significant impact. In your first year, you grew the region from 269 members, and over the last eight years, it’s got an impressive 761+ members. So, your leadership and your results have driven an approach that have earned you recognition as the Executive Director of the Year, three consecutive years in the organization, and the honored, prestigious CEO Award by Mary Kennedy Thompson, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you as part of the organization. And you’re now… condolences or congratulations are in order…

Shirley: (laughing)

Ivan:
You’re now the Chairperson for the BNI Foundation, and that fits because you’re known for your heart for service and commitment to growth. And so, welcome back to the BNI Podcast.

Shirley:
Thank you so much. I told somebody today that I always said that when I retired, I wanted to help nonprofits raise money. And to be able to do that now through BNI is just a dream come true. So to be able to have an impact through the Foundation and all of our nonprofits, I’m just honored to be able to do so. It’s like a huge congrats for me. It’s like pinch me — I can’t believe I get to do this.

Ivan:
Well, pinch me. I’m happy that you’re doing it because you know it’s really important to have new blood come into a nonprofit or onto a Board [of Directors]. I’m a believer of that. I just am stepping down from the TLC board, which I’ve been on for over 14 years, and it’s good to have new blood come in and with new ideas and a new set of energy. Even when the previous board, which I was certainly a member of in BNI and a member of in the Transformational Leadership Council [TLC], even when the mature board has done amazing things, it’s still good to have new people come on, and that’s what you’ve done with the BNI Foundation.

Shirley:
Yeah, I’m excited for it.

Ivan:
So, can you briefly tell us… You know, the podcasts go by so quick.

Shirley:
Yes.

Ivan:
Can you briefly tell us what the mission and the impact of the BNI Foundation is?

Shirley:
Yeah, so the BNI Foundation is to benefit children and education, and we do that through different avenues. Business Voices is where you put your talent in. You go to local schools and have an impact on that level. We have Future Leaders Week, where we spend time with young folks, letting them know all about BNI and mentorship. We also do some amazing Givers Gain Grants, where we really work with the schools in areas to be able to help them with giving them grants. And then lastly, there’s the [Misner] Endowment Fund, which I love because it’s going to make the BNI Foundation live forever to be able to do all this good stuff.

Ivan:
Yeah, and if anyone wants to be a Misner Fellow, just go to the BNIFoundation.org website and find out how you can become a Misner Fellow. We hit our first level of goal. We wanted to go over a million dollars in the Endowment, and we now have that, and we’re excited about that. But you also wanted to talk about something reasonably new, and that’s the BNI Foundation Ambassador.

Shirley:
Yes, so I was a member of BNI and didn’t know about the Foundation until I went to a conference, and so it’s my goal to get it out at the chapter level. And why not have BNI Ambassadors that are on the ground level that are members really representing the BNI Foundation in their regions and in their chapters. And so that’s what we’re doing.

We’re getting a bunch of nonprofit-minded, Givers Gain-type people that will bring our initiatives to the chapter level. And so we have Ambassador calls every other month, and we get all the Ambassadors together to talk about what we’re going to do next. And the biggest part of that is the Business Voices. Like what can we do in our local schools to help our teachers and our leaders really be impactful in what they do through Givers Gain Grants and all of the other initiatives that we do through the Foundation.

Ivan:
So people who want to become Foundation Ambassadors, and I think that’s a great concept because as a member, you get to go visit many chapters as a Foundation Ambassador, and so it sort of helps two things: it helps the Foundation, but it also helps you as a business person. How can people become a Foundation Ambassador? Where would they go for that?

Shirley:
Yeah, so visiting our BNI Foundation Facebook page, we always announce when we are going to have the Foundation calls, and so you can register for that call and jump on the call, and we’ll share with you how to get involved at the chapter or regional level, and even the national level. So we have some folks that are doing some things like the Walk and Talk. We have Elaine Zambos that is going to take the idea that we do the Walk and Talk at conferences, and we’re going to bring those down to the regional level to just have some networking, but also to have an impact with the Foundation.

Ivan:
Yeah, I just went to Facebook and typed in BNI Foundation on the search engine, and I got Facebook.com/BNI Foundation. So that’s where you go, and then you can always leave a personal message and say, “Hey, I want to be an Ambassador, and somebody will get back to you.

Shirley:
Absolutely.

Ivan:
So, how can this lead to having more nonprofits in a [BNI] region that can work with the BNI Foundation? Because we don’t want to compete with nonprofits. We believe that we are compatible, and so how does this lead to nonprofits participating?

Shirley:
So that’s where I think my biggest vision is. Early on when I would ask members, they would be like, “Oh, I want to help the Foundation, but I don’t want to disrespect the nonprofit that we have in our chapter.” I’m like, “We never want to do that,” and I said, “Tell me about your [chapter’s] nonprofit.” It just so happens that their nonprofit had to do with children and education. I’m like, “You’re the perfect fit. Like, you are exactly what we’re looking for.”

But even nonprofits that have nothing to do with children and education, we’re not going to compete with you on any level. We want to help every nonprofit take their mission next level, and so in our region we’ve worked really hard to come up with programs to support all nonprofits. We want to have webinars and get that out there. I hear that the month of November is going to be a great month to learn about BNI nonprofits and how you can get nonprofits to join your chapters. And so we’re going to be working with Heather [in BNI] Marketing to push out some of those things.

But we have initiatives that go year-round to help all of our nonprofits, and then where the BNI Foundation is symbiotic, like we can help you with Givers Gain Grants if you work with children and education. So why wouldn’t we go out into the world and try to bring in a nonprofit to your chapter that has to do with children and education, and then it’s a win-win situation. But even if it’s not to do with children and education, we still can help you come up with programs to really take your nonprofit next level.

Ivan, I did not know that nonprofits even existed in the BNI world until I heard a [BNI] podcast with you where you talked about how nonprofits are a big fit. And after I heard that, I was like, “Oh, I’m going to get nonprofits.” We have 22 nonprofits in our region today, and it’s all because I heard a podcast about you. That’s what got me to reach out to you and say, “Can we do a podcast about the BNI Foundation?” Because that’s how I learned, and I’m hoping that others will hear this and will learn about the BNI Foundation, and we can really get it out across our nation, but across all of the countries. We have a lot of amazing things happening in countries through Business Voices.

Ivan:
Yeah, Business Voices is the community outreach arm of the BNI Foundation. I mentioned BNIFoundation.com. I just did a search. At this moment, there’s an error on that connection. So you can also go to BNIFoundation.org, and that website is currently working just fine. Also, the Facebook page you mentioned, I happened to see a post for the Ambassador presentation, so that seems to be going on actively. And those are two great places where people can join. I’ve actually had members say to me, “I joined BNI because of its commitment to charitable work.”

Shirley:
I love that.

Ivan:
I just love when I hear that.

Shirley:
Yes. I mean, it is the way that BNI gives back. Like we operate off of a Givers Gain philosophy, but the Foundation is the way that we give back, and I love that.

Ivan:
Well, we’re out of time. I know you wanted me to share one story.

Shirley:
Yes, I did.

Ivan:
And this is a BNI Business Voices story. We had a number of chapters in a region on the east coast of the United States where it gets very cold [in the winter] go to an elementary school and ask the principal, “How can we help you?”

And the principal was first of all blown away. He said, “Really seriously, you guys want to help?”

They said, “Yeah, what can we do? What’s your problem?”

He said, “At the moment, our biggest problem is that we have kids going to school with no shoes or with shoes with holes in them, and it’s cold. There’s snow. It’s freezing. When children’s feet are cold, they’re not going to be able to pay attention in class.”

And so it was amazing. The region was like, “We got this,” and the principal was like, “What do you mean?” “No, no, we got this. We’ll take care of this.” And within just a few weeks, they delivered literally truckloads of shoes, lightly used, and in many cases, brand new children’s shoes. They had to pick a room [at the school] to store all the shoes so that no children would have bare feet or shoes with holes in them again. And to me, that’s such a great Business Voices project.

Shirley:
Oh, I love that story. That’s amazing. Like that’s the impact that we want to have. And you hit on something, “How can we help?” Like to go to a school and ask that question — they will tell you. They will share it.

Ivan:
They will. All right. So if you’re interested, go to the Facebook page for the BNI Foundation or go to www.BNIFoundation.org, and you’ll be able to get to the website. Shirley, thank you so much for your time. You’ve been on probably as much or more than almost any other director, and that honestly, that shows you how much I respect your contributions to the organization.

Shirley:
Ivan, that means the world to me.

Ivan:
Thank you, Shirley. Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
Okay, great. Thank you both so much. That was a wonderful podcast.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Ivan:
Priscilla, I’ve never done this at the end of a podcast, but I’m going to throw something else in if you don’t mind, and that is, if you’re an Education Coordinator, please share this information with your chapter. They really need to hear it. Thanks, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
Okay, great. Thanks, Ivan.

Small talk isn’t about filling silence. It’s about opening doors. The goal is to express genuine interest. One thoughtful question creates a conversation. One conversation creates a relationship. And one relationship can change a business — or even a life.

In your BNI chapter and with other people you’ve met before, pick up a previous conversation, refer to something they’ve said in a presentation, or bring up something positive another member said about them. Choose three of the questions in this podcast and try them during Open Networking or in your next One-to-One.

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am doing great, and I am in Charlotte, North Carolina this week, today at BNI Global Support Office, and I’ll be talking to the staff and taking a look at the new museum room that has been set up, so I’m excited to be in Charlotte.

Priscilla:
So, what do you have to share with us?

Ivan:
Well, you know, I’ve been having a lot of people ask me about Small Talk, and I’ve done a couple of podcasts on it, and I’ve got some new content, some new material. So I thought I would talk about The Power of Small Talk, and how little conversations can develop into big relationships. I’m sure you’ve heard, I’ve certainly heard people say, “I’m just not good at small talk.” I hear that all the time.

Priscilla:
Oh, right, that’s a phrase.

Ivan:
Yeah, I’m just not good at small talk, or I don’t like small talk. Personally, I think small talk gets a bad reputation. The problem isn’t small talk, the problem is staying there in small talk. Small talk shouldn’t be the destination, it’s the doorway. And if you never walk through the doorway, you’re never going to build the kinds of relationships that generate referrals, generate opportunities that can build lifelong friendships. Networking isn’t about collecting business cards, it’s about collecting relationships, and relationships almost always begin with small talk, opening conversation. I recommend you do a search on small talk, and you’ll see a number of the podcasts that I’ve done on this, and this has some different content than what I had on those others.

Many people think that they have to say something brilliant in the small talk. Well, you don’t. You just have to make the other person feel important. That is what you need to do. So, here’s something I’ve learned over 40 years of building BNI. Many people forget, they forget exactly what you say, but they’ll remember how you made them feel when your conversation makes someone feel interesting, respected, or appreciated. You’ve already separated yourself from most of the people that they’ll meet that day. So, what do you actually say?

Let’s start with meeting someone for the first time, instead of asking, “So, what do you do?” Try asking, “What’s something good that’s been keeping you busy lately?” One [question] asks for a job title; the other invites a story, and people remember stories, they don’t remember job titles.

Another question is, and I love this, “What do you enjoy most about what you do?” That question shifts people away from facts and towards passion. People light up when they talk about what they enjoy. Here’s another favorite. “How did you get into that?” Almost everyone has a story, and stories build a connection faster than resumes ever will.

Since this is a BNI Podcast, here’s a question that every member should become comfortable asking, “Who is your ideal client or referral partner?” With that, you’re really asking, “Who can I help you meet?”

Another great question is, “What’s one challenge you’re working through right now?” You know, helping people solve problems is where referrals begin, and relationships begin. And I know I’ve told stories about this, where I’ve asked a question about what’s one of the challenges. And you don’t want to lead with this question, because it’s not a good question to open with, but when somebody has talked a little bit to you, then you say, “What’s your biggest challenge right now?” or “What’s one of your challenges?”

And I remember creating a great relationship with someone who was talking to me about a nonprofit [organization], wanting to start a nonprofit, but didn’t think he was big enough to do it, and I referred him to a community foundation, which you basically set up a fund under 401(c)(3) charitable foundation, and I’ve talked about that in a podcast. And so helping people solve problems is where relationships and referrals begin. It certainly did in that case.

One of my favorites is, “What’s something exciting that you’re working on that most people don’t know about yet?”

Priscilla:
Mmm.

Ivan:
Yeah, I think that’s a great one. And before ending the conversation, ask, “Before we wrap up, what’s one thing I should remember about you?” I love that question. Now, remember… it’s not an interrogation, it’s a discussion. So don’t go in with a list of questions, and I’ve actually seen people go, “So before we wrap up, what’s one thing that I should remember about you?” Wait, you know, just have these tucked away in your mind, so that you can ask these kinds of things and get people to open up.

Now, let’s move to other people that you’ve already met. Try beginning, you know, somebody that you met, you know, like a BNI member. This is what you ask, “I’ve been thinking about what you said last time. We should pick up on that conversation. We should pick that conversation back up.” That tells someone that you’ve listened, you remembered, and you cared.

Now, particularly online groups for BNI and hybrid groups, you should be taking notes of what members [say]. If you’re working on your computer, it shouldn’t be email. You should be taking notes on what members are saying, so that when you do a One-to-One with that person, or when you do a breakout with that person, you can absolutely ask this question. “You know, I’ve been thinking about your presentation last week or two weeks ago, and I’d love to pick that conversation back up.” That tells people you’re listening while they’re doing their presentations.

Take notes about people in their weekly presentations, especially online, because it’s really easy to get distracted. Or you can say, “That idea you shared really stuck with me. I actually used it.” Or you can say, “I appreciate how consistent you are. You always show up.” Or “I admire the way you handled that situation that you discussed.” These show that you’re listening to people.

Here’s one especially valuable inside BNI. “Who do you know that I could help right now?” It’s just a conversation from “What can I get?” to “Who can I serve?” That’s Givers Gain in action.

And perhaps the most powerful question of all is one that everybody’s heard me say, “How can I help you?” And you know, it’s funny, Priscilla, true story. I was doing a live radio interview just a few years ago, and I talked about meeting people and small talk. I talked about asking… you know, if you feel like there’s some kind of connection with the person, asking “How can I help you?” And the talk show host just shut me down right there.

It’s like, “Oh, that old phrase, “How can I help you? That never works, I don’t recommend that.” Well, you know, I’m on live radio, I don’t want to get into an argument with the guy, and I’m just like, “Well, I find that kind of works. But let’s move on. Let’s talk about that other topic you wanted to talk about.” And so, you know, I just moved the conversation on. Here’s what was interesting: when the interview was over, I said, “So what kind of people are you looking for to bring in to interview,” and he gave me some professions and some specific names. And I told him, I said, “You know what, I know that person. I know that person really, really well. Would you like me to reach out to them and see if they’d be willing to be on your show?” And he’s like, “Wow, really? Yes, that would be fantastic.” And I said, “That’s how you say, ‘How can I help you?’ without actually using those words.”

Priscilla:
Right.

Ivan:
And he said, “Touché. You’re absolutely right. You just found a way to help me, you didn’t use those words. Those tired old words,” he called them, “but that’s exactly what you did.” And it works. Everyone, it works. It really does. If you want to help somebody, ask some variation of that. “What can I do to assist you with that?” “How can I help you?” “Who are you looking for in his case?”

So, one more phrase: “I’ve been hearing great things about you.” Then give an example. “Been hearing great things about you.” When you say that, when you say, “So and so was just talking about what a great job you did,” you’re giving someone the gift of their reputation. You’re showing… you’re putting a mirror up to them with a positive vision of their reputation.

So here’s the big lesson on small talk. Small talk isn’t about filling silence. It’s about opening doors. The goal isn’t to impress people. It’s to express genuine interest. That old saying that it’s not about being interesting, it’s more about being interested is the key. When you become more interested than interesting, people naturally become more interested in you.

This week, those of you listening to my podcast, choose just three questions from today’s podcast, just three, and use them at your next Open Networking session at a chapter meeting. Or during your next One-to-One, or with someone you’ve been meaning to reconnect with. Choose three questions and ask them those three questions and let them just shine. One thoughtful question creates a conversation. One conversation creates a relationship. And one relationship can change a business – or even a life.

Because in BNI, we know that small talk may start the conversation, but meaningful conversation builds the relationship. And relationships are where referrals live. So, until next week, keep building your network, and remember, networking is more about farming than it is about hunting. It’s about building those relationships, and the seeds that you plant through simple conversations today often become the referrals you harvest tomorrow. That’s my message this week, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
That’s great. I really like that, and I think it’s very helpful.

Ivan:
Thank you. I appreciate it. And for those listening, I’d love your feedback. Leave a message on the podcast. I read every single message that gets posted to BNI Podcast. Thanks, Priscilla.

Priscilla:

Okay, you’re welcome. Thank you.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.