For decades, the word "genocide" has occupied a unique place in international law, collective memory, and political debate. But what exactly does it mean—and has the definition become too narrow to describe the forms of violence we witness today? In this conversation, Holocaust and genocide scholar Dirk Moses joins me to discuss the crisis unfolding within genocide studies, the fierce disputes over how the term should be defined, and why debates about Gaza have exposed deep fractures in academia, international institutions, and public discourse.We explore the controversy surrounding Moses's influential essay on Germany's "catechism," the role Holocaust memory plays in shaping political culture, and whether modern societies have become trapped by an understanding of evil that struggles to recognize violence outside familiar historical frameworks. Along the way, we discuss Anne Frank and Hind Rajab, the stigma attached to genocide accusations, colonial violence, the ICC and ICJ, and the growing generational divide over how atrocities are remembered and understood.Most importantly, we examine a little-known proposal put forward by the Dutch delegation during the drafting of the UN Genocide Convention in 1948. The proposal attempted to address what its authors called "camouflaged genocide"—forms of destruction that operate indirectly and may not fit neatly into the legal framework that ultimately emerged. Moses argues that revisiting this forgotten history may offer a way to repair a definition many scholars now see as increasingly inadequate. Whether you agree or disagree with his conclusions, this discussion raises fundamental questions about memory, law, history, and the language we use to describe humanity's gravest crimes.Pre-order my upcoming book: *Insufficient Rewards: How We Traded Integrity for Comfort and Outsourced Morality*https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Insufficient-Rewards/Jay-Shapiro/9781803419985BECOME A MEMBER - MONTHLY MEMBERS ONLY LIVESTREAM https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5NIku35U9thGG9WBJjE0sw/joinFor more from Jay visit whatjaythinks.com00:00:00 Coming Up...00:01:52 Intro To the Genocide Tug-o-War00:11:34 The State of Genocide Studies Now00:15:20 Dirk Touched The Third Rail In Germany00:21:32 The Five Elements of the Catechism00:24:32 The Problems of Genocide And Can Something Be Worse?00:28:32 Israel Testimony Of Genocide00:33:24 The Stigma Of Genocide00:37:07 Las Casas on the Devastation of the Indies and Language of Outrage00:41:24 The Word As Advocacy or Legal Crime00:47:15 The Question of Intent The Rohingya and Gaza00:52:05 What The Court Says And Hind Rajab And Anne Frank01:01:34 The Symbolic Term And The Focus on Palestine01:07:18 The ICC Trial Israel Didn't Want To See01:13:52 Convincing People They Aren't Free And Hamas's Undemocratic Choice To Act01:18:55 Camouflaged Genocide The Key To the Door01:27:44 Proving Camouflaged Genocide As A TestBECOME A MEMBER - MONTHLY MEMBERS ONLY LIVESTREAM https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5NIku35U9thGG9WBJjE0sw/joinFor more from Jay visit whatjaythinks.com