The Panel

Corey shares how he moved from marketing into coding, why he still keeps technical co-founders on some products, and how he thinks about balancing services, software, and content. The group also digs into AEO, paid ads, churn in productized services, and why manual customer research still matters.

Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
02:20 - Corey Haines and Conversion Factory
04:33 - Does everyone still need a technical co-founder?
06:21 - How Corey went from marketing to coding
10:08 - TrueList, Magister, and Corey’s other products
13:01 - Running several products instead of betting on one
15:26 - Building a business around a personal brand
17:33 - How AI changes testing ideas and building products
20:58 - Automated testing across 30 repos
24:50 - Spreading the risk across multiple products
27:24 - Josh Pigford and the debate over focus
31:31 - Why some products grow and then fade
34:33 - What to do when growth stalls
36:48 - SendFox, focus, and what counts as winning
38:52 - Churn and sales challenges in productized services
41:40 - Selling AI implementation and SEO services
46:14 - The value of talking to people
48:29 - What parts of marketing can you productize?
50:26 - SaaS marketing has changed—and Google feels it
52:52 - Which marketing channels should you try first?
56:24 - Finding the first customers for a niche product
59:14 - Learning how customers talk and buy
01:03:04 - AEO results: more visibility, traffic, and booked calls
01:05:24 - AEO beyond your own website
01:08:04 - The work AI still can’t skip
01:11:50 - Brian’s mix of ads, cold email, and experiments
01:16:03 - Growth curves and finding the next marketing channel
01:20:32 - Faster MVPs and choosing what to build
01:22:28 - Products Brian actually wants to work on
01:24:54 - Finding customers and problems worth solving

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Links mentioned in this episode:

• Ruben’s comment on AI and marketing
• Josh Pigford’s new startup
• Corey Haines on GitHub
• Magister Marketing — AI Marketing Agent
• Jason Cohen’s “Elephant in the Room”
• Brian Casel on selling Productize
• Tim Soulo: “The only competitive advantage left is effort.”
• Conversion Factory — On-Demand Marketing for Tech Companies
• Corey Haines — Marketer, Builder, Writer
• Marketing Skills for Claude Code and AI Agents
• Truelist — Email Validation Platform
• Marc Lou on X
• Charleston AI — AI Engineering, Classes & Repair

Is DHH right in his prediction that handcrafted coding is done, is trying to "be the best" the best strategy, and can you skip the hard work and just do the easy parts of product launching and still find success?

Chapters:

• (00:11) - Welcome to the Panel Podcast

Links:

• DHH keynote at Rails World
• Derrick Reimer on finding business ideas
• Ruben Gamez tweet
• Olly tweet
• MicroConf Europe
• AngelList
• TinySeed
• Amp
• Grok
• Muse
• Instinct
• Grok Bot
• ElevenLabs
• Reception.ai
• DocuSign
• Flywrite
• Mimeo
• Miro
• Evernote
• Bending Spoons

We’re joined by Aaron Francis who shares his experience after joining Laravel, Laravel's evolution, marketing strategies, and the future of cloud computing. How is Jev changing the cost and way we use LLMs. And what is the future of education and training on the web?

Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
03:03 - Aaron's Laracon reveal and why he took the job
09:03 - Open source roots, cloud money, and VC-scale growth
14:58 - Who Laravel Cloud is actually built for
19:07 - Taylor's "best in category" tweet, unpacked
22:52 - Ambition and care beat chasing every feature
27:02 - Founders need a point of view, not just a new tool
31:46 - PHP's culture keep Laravel grounded
35:25 - Justin's Vegas Retreat
45:10 - Introducing Jev, and how it's different from an LLM
58:23 - Rosie, ChatGPT Live, and whether full-stack agents are any good
62:16 - "Eat the pain" for your customers as a strategy
77:41 - Aaron's Astra 3D office walkthrough demo
81:11 - Are courses dead? Where dev education goes next

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Links mentioned in this episode:

• Jev announcement post
• Syntax: WTF is Jev?
• Aaron's product - Solo
• Aaron's 3D modeling with Astra
• 90s PC game: Incredible Machine
• New Builder Methods page
• Aaron Francis
• Introducing GPT-Live | OpenAI
• TypeSafe AI
• Free AI Voice Generator & Voice Agents Platform | ElevenLabs
• Compare AI Models: Pricing, Context & Benchmarks | OpenRouter

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, and Jordan Gal to dissect Jason Cohen's latest skills, particularly the 'Find Your Carol' AI exercise that reveals how customers truly perceive a business. The trio debates aggressive growth experiments versus refining existing funnels, analyzing why street interviews might outperform traditional UGC ads for prospecting. They also tackle the strategic decision of whether to keep product features bundled or spin them off into separate brands, while reflecting on the changing landscape of SaaS valuations and the challenges of maintaining energy as a solo founder.

Chapters:

• (00:10) - Welcome and Introduction

Mentioned in this episode:

• Hidden Multipliers: Jumpstart Growth With Your Existing Budget and Team by Jason Cohen
• Find Your Carol | Skills from A Smart Bear
• Come to Charleston AI for all of your AI needs (r/TrueAnon)
• OrbanAI — AI agents that run inside your systems
• Tim Aton (@Tim_Aton) on X
• Company Of One: Why Staying Small Is the Next Big Thing for Business by Paul Jarvis
• Andrew Warner (@AndrewWarner) on X
• What Are Orbs? - Amp
• Spots.fm — Sponsor independent creators
• Kit: The Platform for Creators

Jordan says you need to have patience and urgency. Justin says, "focus on the little red box that creates results." Brian is thinking strategically about courses vs. downloadable products.

Chapters:

• (00:10) - Welcome to The Panel

Mentioned in this episode:

• "I want $100 million"
• "You can make it complicated, or you can hit the golf ball."
• Justin's episode: "Don't over-engineer it"
• Justin's drawing: "Focus on what matters (the little red box)"
• Ryan Carson: "How I manage 15 AI agents 24/7 as a solo founder"
• Brian's Mimeo product
• "When you bundle too much in your product, your positioning becomes vague"
• Freshbooks CEO started a secret company to compete with his existing product

What "new" value can we create with AI? Brian, Justin, and Jordan talk about how we can be more creative and ambitious and build things we wouldn't have built before. We also chatted about Grok Bot and xAI's land grab (Cursor acquisition and the SuperGrok Heavy plan). Also... Brian broke up with Claude?!

Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro

03:34 - The sudden rise and appeal of Grokbot

11:49 - Claude fatigue and the shift toward chief-of-staff AI agents

14:55 - How product experience is replacing model quality in the AI race

18:09 - Cursor's speed advantage, pricing pain, and team switching costs

26:08 - Enterprise loyalty and why model quality will commoditize

43:44 - AI for autonomous entities, trust, and community integration

49:11 - Building AI-native vs. consumer vs. professional use cases

57:10 - Trust as the bottleneck in sensitive fields like personal finance

60:22 - Transistor's video launch, pricing model, and MCP integration

66:14 - Jordan's new capital deal and leveraging extra runway

72:12 - Customer success hiring and Builder Methods' non-developer expansion

90:15 - Wrap up

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Links mentioned in this episode:

• Jesse Hanley – Marketer, developer, and creator.
• Introducing Grok Bot – SpaceXAI's latest release.
• Shaan Puri on AI Loyalty – A candid take on switching tools.
• Cursor – The top AI coding agent.
• Caleb Porzio's Work Notes – Why Cursor outpaces Codex.
• Amazon’s Anthropic Stake – IPO valuation insights.
• Polsia – AI that manages operations autonomously.
• Mostly Technical #145 – Exploring marketing as engineering.

Is there a potential SaaS pocalypse? How can we adapt to changes and leverage new models for growth? Jordan, Justin, and Brian explore the current state of the software market, private equity dynamics, and the impact of AI on valuations.

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:01 Finding distribution is difficult on FB Marketplace and online
12:05 The future of building software with AI and agent-first design
16:07 Market entry strategies for new products
19:57 Unbundling SaaS and the new software delivery models
23:46 The role of internal tools and side projects
28:03 The SaaS pocalypse
32:00 SaaS valuations and market dynamics
36:01 Designing simple interfaces with powerful backend features
39:59 The evolving landscape of SaaS and market opportunities
51:25 Opportunities in the current market
1:03:00 Life updates

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Links mentioned in this episode:

• Mimeo: Own your email marketing stack
• Flywrite | The writing app with a terminal built in
• LiveKit Platform
• Resend
• Buttondown 
• tiiny.host 
• Make IPOs Great Again
• Tiny 
• Anne Frank The Exhibition 
• Visit the Chicago Museum of Ice Cream
• MxPx
• Goldfinger

How's your funnel doing? Jordan and Brian are joined by Henry Poydar to chat about integrating human and autonomous agents, building and testing product prototypes in days, not years, the importance of flexible, adaptive funnels, and debate the future of SaaS, unbundling, and the agent-first software paradigm. 

Timestamps:
YOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️

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Links mentioned in this episode:

• Steady
• HeyRosy
• Builder Methods
• OpenRoutines.dev
• Claude
• Flywrite
• Vanta
• Drip
• Bento
• Help Scout

What happens to the value of software when everyone can make software?

Timestamps:
00:00 Welcome to The Panel
00:31 Brian’s Brighton Ruby trip
03:12 Building FlyWrite in the car
05:01 Why existing coding tools don’t work for writing
07:20 What FlyWrite actually does
11:37 Building version one with Fable
16:04 Jordan’s weekend build and first AI-native workflow
28:38 Claude Design and interactive prototyping
36:41 AI, software supply, and productivity
39:09 The Jeremy Giffin podcast episode
48:55 What AI means for Transistor and hosting
58:19 Google, Microsoft, Apple, and the AI distribution war
63:28 Figma, design careers, and the white-flag mindset
74:08 What happens to agencies and web designers
81:05 Transition pain vs. long-term upside
90:13 Becoming AI-native and where do displaced workers go?

YOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️

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Links mentioned in this episode:

• Superconductor
• faster.dev
• ConductorAI
• Cursor
• Flywrite
• Railway
• Base44
• Lovable
• Wildbit Blog (Natalie Nagele)
• Harvey ROI Calculator
• Spots.fm
• Spots (2018 archive)
• Product People shoutout (2013 archive)
• Claude Design
• Invest Like the Best — Jeremy Giffon
• Gal Shir on X
• Chef hierarchy pyramid
• The widening productivity-pay gap

Justin and Jordan talk about how Jordan made a change to their funnel and increased sign ups dramatically, improving team communication, conducting better employee reviews, and developing better workflows for project handoffs between employees when AI is being used.

Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
02:45 Taking control of your funnel
05:24 Why trust matters in e-commerce
08:18 Optimizing the customer experience
19:10 Doubling sign-ups
23:08 Customer demand wins
25:34 Putting the credit card upfront
29:26 Customer demand and the funnel
31:56 Question your assumptions
35:00 Reviews, pay, and philosophy
44:14 Surviving survival mode
46:40 How we think about pay
49:00 Motivation and career growth
54:05 AI and developer ownership
01:00:54 Keeping the quality bar high
01:03:51 Building a culture of accountability

YOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️

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Links mentioned in this episode:

• Transistor.fm
• HeyRosy
• Claude AI
• Victor's Post on Market Pull
• Ryan Cohen
• Tony Fadell
• Cardhook
• The Walt Disney Company | Acquired