Are you ready to have a Totally Chaotic time?

We certainly hope so, as we are thrilled to welcome Dr Emma Southon back on the show for the FOURTH TIME (not the third, as incorrectly said by Dr Rad). Emma has released her first children’s book, which was co-authored with Greg Jenner and illustrated by Rikin Parekh.

Special Episode – Totally Chaotic History with Dr Emma Southon

The cover of Totally Chaotic History: Roman Britain Gets Rowdy!

This powerhouse trio have produced Totally Chaotic History: Roman History Gets Rowdy! Whilst the target audience for this latest instalment in the Totally Chaotic series is 7-12 year olds, we thoroughly enjoyed it. Turns out that we didn’t know as much about Roman Britain as we thought!  

If you would like to chuckle and LOL your way through the lengthy history of the British and their interactions with the Romans, you need to grab a copy of this book. We were intrigued to find out how Greg, Emma and Rikin managed to pack so much historiography into a children’s history book. It was intriguing to find out about the process that went into building the layers of historical meaning on every page.   

Are you ready to get rowdy?

Ask Santa for Totally Chaotic History: Roman History Gets Rowdy! Naturally, Mr Claus shops at your local independent bookstore.

Want more from Emma Southon? Check out our previous interview about A History of Rome in 21 Women from 2023.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad and

Dr G 0:33
I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad, and I am Dr G and Dr G, we are joined by someone who is now, I think, a triple guest, which I don’t think we’ve ever had before. We are joined by Dr Emma Southon, who is without doubt, our top drag race fan to have on the podcast, but she also happens to be a top notch historian and hilarious, so that’s very handy for us. She is the author of a biography of Agrippina the Younger as well as a book called A fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, and, most recently, a history of Rome in 21 women, all of which you need to check out if you have not read them already, Emma is also the co host of the podcast. History is sexy, but we are here today to graduate her on her latest book, which is totally chaotic history Roman Britain gets rowdy, and in this collaboration, Emma gets together with a podcaster and all around famous author Greg Jenner and illustrator Rikin Parekh. So Emma, welcome,

Dr Emma Southon 2:06
hello. What a joy to be back. Am I really your first third person? That makes me feel special.

Dr Rad 2:11
I think so

Dr G 2:14
special you’ve come to the right place. So we

Dr Rad 2:17
are so excited to talk about this book, because it is very different, and we’re going to explore some of those differences in a moment for you. But let’s start with the general premise of the book. Shall we? The book is about Roman Britain, and we actually learned a lot by reading this, right? Because it is actually a children’s book, I should point out to people.

Dr Emma Southon 2:37
It isn’t for, technically, for like seven to 12 year olds, but both Greg and I love history, and so we put in about as much as we learned. Everything that we learned that we found was interesting, we chucked in there, and we’re very keen to make it a book that is proper history like So the premise is that Greg is an amateur historian who is telling the reader the story of whatever the period he’s covering, so telling the story of Roman Britain. And then that’s all in the present tense, and then he has expert interruptions from a professional historian and expert in the field, who, in the past tense, comes in and says, Actually, Greg, we used to think that, but now we think says, and we know this because we found x, y, z, or and this is what the evidence is. And kind of then gives you the historiography of the period as well, and the like, how we know what we know what kind of things historians have had arguments about what has shifted in our understanding of it, how we interpret the sources and just both widening the subjects as it’s usually taught to children. So it’s not just like decontextualized Roman Britain, which has like no time period, which is what you very often get with kids books. You just get, like, the Romans or and as if there was no change in the entire period. Or like, you know, the Romans are in Britain for 500 years, and there’s just pretense that it’s all the same and all the whole time, and also showing how we expanding what history is as it’s taught to children. So it’s not just giving them facts, as though we just we know those facts, but what historians actually do like how we learn, how we change our minds, how we have big history fights all the time, and have arguments about things, and how there isn’t, like one right answer in history. Most of the time, there’s a lot of wrong answers, but there’s very rare there’s also a lot of right answers. And so it sounds quite complicated, but because Greg is naturally hilarious, and because there a lot of it is done through illustration and the way that the page is laid out, it means that there can be lots of a lot going on on the page, and you can learn a whole lot from what looks like just a really fun, silly joke.

Dr Rad 4:59
Like, you’re making me feel a lot better about the fact that I learned a lot from reading

Dr Emma Southon 5:04
good that’s the aim. Is that? Because, I think that, especially with because I read the first is a series that Greg is doing, and he’s doing four initially. The first one was totally chaotic Egypt, and he sent me that, like, before it came out, to say, like, this is what the thing’s gonna look like. And I learned so much from that. And like I did, I haven’t technically done Egypt since I was an undergraduate, but I still felt like I had, you know, a basic grasp of it, but like, there’s a whole debate in there about why Egyptians mummified people and, like, what is the purpose of that? And I was like, Oh my God, I’ve never even thought about that as an like it’s just in a kid’s book for eight year olds, and a complete shift in my understanding of why Egyptian culture mummified people. Is it preservation, or is it actually a deliberate transformation? Because if it’s preservation, why are you taking the organs out that’s not preserving? Is it that’s transforming the body.

Dr Rad 6:02
That’s true. That’s true. Yeah.

Dr Emma Southon 6:04
So, so I also learned a lot, and the next one is a stone age, and I’m looking forward to learning stuff about that. Okay,

Dr G 6:10
I’m ready to dig in. I’m gonna have to acquire the whole series. On the back of this amazing

Dr Rad 6:16
it makes me feel terrified that all these children are gonna grow up to be so incredibly educated

Dr Emma Southon 6:21
they are. They’re going to be smarter than by the time they’re 12. They’re going to know so

Dr Rad 6:26
exactly they’re going to be like, Excuse me, I think you’ll find that there’s historiographical debate about that exactly, that’s what we want, which I find terrific, because I’m a teacher, I’m actually going to encounter this. Thanks.

Dr Emma Southon 6:40
They’ll be the best kids, though. Yeah.

Dr G 6:43
We want that kind of smarts coming through. That’s that’s really exciting.

Dr Rad 6:47
So that’s an amazing description of what the book is all about, in sort of general terms. And it sort of made us realize that when we have looked at Roman Britain, it’s been very much about Caesar Claudius and Boudicca, the highlights, yeah, as I like to call them, which all happened in a very short period of time. So can you tell us a bit about some of the other chapters and what they specifically focus on?

Dr Emma Southon 7:06
So we have a chapter first at the beginning, about the late Iron Age and like, what is Britain like before Caesar gets there? Basically, very important, yeah, because I think that everybody thinks that see the Britain like before Caesar got there, is basically what Caesar describes, which is eight men with mustaches and 200 cows and nothing. So

Dr Rad 7:30
we’ve got a bit sounds like a party, yeah.

Dr Emma Southon 7:32
And then it effectively goes through, kind of chronologically, the the history of of the Roman occupation of Britain. And Britain as part of the Empire. So it does Caesar. And then the massive impacts that Caesar brings, because he makes Britain, or at least southern Britain, big chunks of it, become client kingdoms of the Roman Empire. And so there’s these relationships with Tiberius and Augustus that are very rarely written about in anywhere, to be honest, but they’re all there. And then Claudius, kind of second invasion, his big invasion, and then the resistance period after that. So you’ve got about 100 years of people like coraticus and the kind of ongoing attempts to remove the Romans. And then we really wanted it to not just focus on London. So we have a section on Wales. We’ve got sections on what’s happening in the north of England, on how these places are kind of slowly absorbed into the empire in different ways, especially Wales, which takes, like, a really concerted effort to get it in. And then we go all the way through talking about both how unique Britain is, in terms of how much of the army is there, how you get these kind of syncretic, syncretistic gods that you find in Britain? So we’ve got a god swap game where you get to match your gods to your local Yeah, all of them just match with Mars, because apparently the British just really took to Mars and were like, we hear you said he’s a god of war, but we’ve decided he’s the God of Everything. So and fashion. What do we you know? What are people wearing? What are people doing? Building fancy villas, building a town? Because what Rome really brings is urbanization, and then so you get towns for the first time and cities, but also you get these huge Villa estates that are like areas of agricultural production for export, which never existed before, and they’re really unique, like the way they’re built. And when everybody draws a Roman villa, they draw that kind of bracket shaped, you know, classic Italian Palace, but the ones in Britain are like corridors, and they’re kind of weird. So we’ve got lots of archeology and mosaics and how you build your villa. So we have a, we originally wrote a Grand Designs thing for that. So it was going to be like, someone’s coming to video. But they were like, I.

Dr Rad 10:00
Only 40 year olds will get eight year old is watching,

Dr Emma Southon 10:09
like he was really funny for us. And then we were like, no, no. Eight year old knows. So we did it as a catalog instead, like they’ll get that. And then we did, like, the building your villa, you’re building your town as a kind of Minecraft thing. So you get to did it as constructor the game, and then talked through all of the actually big history that happens in in Britain at the end of the Roman Empire. So from like 200 to 400 there are like three emperors that are proclaimed in Britain, including Caracalla and Geta of Gladiator II fame,

Dr Rad 10:42
absolutely, I was very, so excited to see the section on them. There

Dr G 10:46
they are hanging out. I will

Dr Emma Southon 10:49
tell you now, and I’m sorry they’re going to probably have to edit this out. But I spent the entire thing going, why is Geta the big one?

Dr G 10:58
Yeah. Surely this really assumed, yeah, miscasting,

Dr Emma Southon 11:03
yeah, like, Geta is the big one and the little one is Caracalla.

Dr G 11:08
Don’t tell Fiona too much. She hasn’t seen it yet.

Dr Rad 11:11
Oh, you’ve seen it. Okay, we’re actually going together to what we call Gold Class here, which basically is, like the super fancy cinema with, like this, you know, the recliner I

Dr G 11:21
want? I want to Colosseum popcorn bucket. That’s what I’m after. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 11:26
I cannot get it here, and it breaks my heart. I’m not going to spoil anything else, but I’m just going to say Gator is the big one, and I genuinely spent a third of a movie with

Dr Rad 11:34
my mind blown. Yeah, no, that is crazy to me. Yeah.

Dr Emma Southon 11:38
So Caracalla,, Geta, Constantine the great he is crowned in Britain. And then Britain is called like a hotbed of usurpers, because people keep rising up, taking chunks of the army and invading mainland Britain, basically. And then there’s a lot that goes on there. Britain, I think, is very often considered to be like a massive backwater that Rome didn’t care about at all. But you see hundreds of years of them desperately trying to keep Britain in the empire, because it is very important as both a space for which is agriculturally, producing enormously, and it is a place where people have loads of property and they want to keep it. And it is, you know, they don’t want to lose it as a space. And the period that Britain is the richest and when the most beautiful things are being built, and when it’s spending the most money on villas and mosaics and paintings, and is the third and fourth century, like this period that we think of as a period of decline and misery is actually a period of kind of gold and luxury in Roman Britain. So, so we have all of that, and then we have the kind of final sad decline, I suppose, of Britain as the army just keeps leaving, and then no one has any money to travel across the sea anymore. So

Dr G 12:56
this ferry system is getting very expensive. I don’t know if I can put my army on boats,

Dr Emma Southon 13:02
and their Saxons got very, very good at piracy, so it became real expensive to keep sending stuff over. And so this kind of last hurrah of Roman Britain is kind of ends with a bit of a whimper. And that famous letter from Honorius where he says, you know, we wrote to Britain and said that they’d have to deal with themselves, which may or may not be about Britain, but yeah, so it hopefully gives, like, a very different perspective on Roman Britain, and then that, it does the whole of it, from the first contact in 150 BCE all the way through to, kind of The final dregs of Roman culture in like 500 and tells you everything that happened, basically, and get a good idea of what living at any period under Roman occupation was like,

Dr G 13:53
Oh, fantastic. So I like the fact that there’s a chronology here. It’s, as you say, it’s not just a smattering of facts without any sort of contextual detail. So everybody gets to go on a journey through this whole few 100 years of Roman contact with the Britons. When you’re thinking about your research and work on this book, was there anything in particular you were surprised to learn as you went through this process,

Dr Emma Southon 14:20
the kind of uniqueness of Romano British culture, like archeologically, because the archeology of Roman Britain is not something that I had ever like looked at in huge detail, and I’d certainly never sat down and read all of the many British archeological reports I read. And because British archeological reports basically publish every archeology PhD that wants to be published. Oh, that’s on British archeology, and it’s brilliant. And as a result, you can read the tiny little niches that people do and see what they’re looking at. And the there are real uniquenesses to Roman British culture, like they didn’t. We used to call it romanizing Back in the day, but you know, they didn’t hell themselves into being as Roman as possible on a copy. But they took what they wanted and absorbed it. But so they were like, Okay, we’ll do villas, but we’re doing them in a way that we like, like, we’ll do corners. Now, really funny thing is that there was a drought 2007-2008, that, for archeologists, was brilliant, because all of the dried out fields meant that they could see with aerial photography, loads of foundations that they wouldn’t have been able to see, and so they could suddenly see loads of Roman and pre Roman archeological sites, or like sites of locations of inhabitation where that they hadn’t known existed before. And you can tell which ones are the pre Roman because they’re all round. And then the Romans come and put corners on

Dr G 15:41
all those Romans. They love their lines. They love their angles.

Dr Emma Southon 15:48
I just really amused me to imagine, like early Roman Britons being like, and they’ve got coordinates, you say,

Dr Rad 15:58
or something. There’s something there about, like, a square pig and

Dr Emma Southon 16:04
a round you get these things, these really specific villas. And like, they build Roman temples, but they build them in a really specific way that is doesn’t look like Roman temple has got like a circular bit in the middle. So they’ll be like, Okay, we’ll do like 50-50, and they were, like, all of the religious sites that appear, which don’t appear until, like, relatively late, but they appeared, but they’re like, we’ll do votive offering. We get that, but we are only going to put it in water, because water is our thing. So we’re gonna, like, make we’re gonna absorb it into our culture, rather than absorbing ourselves into you, basically, which was fascinating to me. And at no point does Britain in general seem to have, like, wholeheartedly thrown itself into you get the odd guy, like the guy who built fishborne Roman palace. But mostly people are like, yeah. Don’t know how I feel about guys

Unknown Speaker 16:58
that might work, but

Dr Emma Southon 17:02
they are still building roundhouses. And like you can see, like, they’ll get on board with things that are useful, like lamps and locks. But apart from that, they’re a bit like, there is a real uniqueness. And like face pots, as well as this thing that you only find in Roman Britain, which is urns for cremains. And they would bury the cremains in a pot with a little face on it. So they make these little face pots interesting. They are adorable. And I don’t know if they’re like the face of the person, sometimes they have a little penis on them because they’re Roman. So they’ll just have, like, a penis, actually, yeah, wouldn’t

Dr G 17:38
want to miss an opportunity,

Dr Emma Southon 17:41
yeah. But you find it in, like, you only find the Britain and, like, a little bit in northern Gaul, but they’re just like these unique aspects of Roman Britain culture that I thought were really delightful. And every single one of them that I learned about was so charming. Because, like, certainly, when I was in school, we went, I grew up near fish born Roman Palace, which is, like the Roman palace, and it is the villa that everybody talks about, and it’s ginormous. It’s like four times the size of most villas. And it is so Roman. It’s so square. It’s got, like, the atrium, it’s got the big wings that go round a bit of grass. And so for a long time, I was like, Okay, so that’s what a Roman villa is. But then when you look at what they all look like, they have a specific layout that the British designed themselves. And so it was, yeah, it was um, eye opening to see how, how the the people for 400 years, were like, okay, we can get along with some of this. But I kind of like, that’s like, feels profoundly British, yeah,

Dr G 18:42
okay, the pragmatism of like, well, you say you do it that way, but we’ve always done it like this, so I think we’re just gonna keep doing it like this. We’re gonna

Dr Emma Southon 18:53
keep we’ll incorporate the bits that we like, but otherwise we will be avoiding virtually all of it.

Dr Rad 19:03
We’ll take the luck, yeah, throw it.

Dr Emma Southon 19:06
We’ll take this, but we’re not getting on board with we’ll take the wine, but we’re not getting on board with the garam

Dr Rad 19:13
there’s got to be a new Monty Python skit in there somewhere.

Dr Emma Southon 19:16
Yeah, there’s a horrible history skit in there somewhere with this, yeah,

Dr Rad 19:21
exactly, yeah. Which is, which is obviously very apt, given that Greg Jenner was involved in me. He was,

Dr Emma Southon 19:26
and you can tell he was the historical consultant for Horrible Histories for a long time. And he wrote the, or helped write the film, The Boudicca film. And, yeah, did a was kind of locked, very responsible for a lot of horrible history stuff. So you can see that humor in there. He has a very the puns and word play. And we share a hilarity of just imagining how these things play out when people talk about and then they cleared some land. We both find it really funny to imagine, like, how does that like? There is a horrible history. Sketch of, like, somebody turning up at a guy’s door and saying, we’re going to build a wall through here. Going to build a massive wall right the way across the island, and if you could just move your sheep out. I think,

Dr Rad 20:11
I think that is something that that we also share. We delight in imagining these scenes of when people come up to the door of, you know, Cincinnatus, whilst he’s farming shirtless. And, yeah, exactly,

Dr Emma Southon 20:26
giving Cato a call, and he’s talking about with cabbages yet again.

Dr Rad 20:33
So obviously, as you sort of highlighted before, there are sometimes these sort of different ideas behind each chapter, the way you laid it out, and the sort of approach that you’ve taken, so when you sort of saw it all come together, which part ended up being your favorite?

Dr Emma Southon 20:47
That’s my favorite. I find the Julius Caesar YouTube bit really funny. So we did Julius Caesar as like a manosphere YouTube bro who is trying to pass off his ludicrous, his ludicrous turning up in Britain, fundamentally unprepared and being chased out and then constantly complaining that doesn’t matter how many hostages he takes, they just keep stabbing him in the back, trying to pass it off as a brilliant victory. And we imagined him kind of, what’s that guy that just fought?

Dr G 21:23
Oh, the guy that just fought my boxer guy,

Dr Emma Southon 21:27
yes,

Dr G 21:28
I can’t remember his name. What’s his name? But isn’t he fundamentally a YouTuber? Yeah, he is.

Dr Emma Southon 21:34
So basically, we imagined him as one of those youtubers who’s, like, always doing stunts, or like a kind of Mr. Beast type bro guy who just wants to impress everybody with, like, the massive stunts that he’s doing. And then we had, like, his description of Britain. We ended up doing it as, like a Q and A while he’s trapped in because he can’t go out because the weather’s so bad that it’s destroyed all of his ships that genuinely happened. So he got trapped on the island well, because all his ships got destroyed and stopped. So, like, he’s got nothing to do. So he can do an AMA, and he’ll describe Britain, and that’s how we’ll have, like, his description of what Britain is like. And yeah, that ended up. And when we were recording the audio book, Greg was doing voices, doing his YouTube voice. And it took a while to get through that, because it was just made us both really laughed that one. I really like that chapter. I think it’s really funny.

Dr G 22:30
That’s a good one. Julius Caesar, what a man, what a time I know, what a guy. And maybe this will help some people, you know, young people, come to a better sense of what he might have really been like. Yeah, he spends a lot of time talking about himself, that’s for sure. In

Dr Emma Southon 22:51
the third person we did, let him say, I we should have we thought they might be a bit far if we had him saying, Caesar has been to British. Yeah. Ridiculous.

Dr G 23:04
It would have served him right in some respects, but I can appreciate the change,

Dr Emma Southon 23:07
yeah, but yeah. Still, it still tickles me to imagine him on YouTube.

Dr G 23:11
Definitely. He’d have quite a following. I can only imagine

Dr Emma Southon 23:16
he really would. He’d have a podcast following, be doing massive things and filming them. Yeah, it would be ridiculous.

Dr G 23:27
So I like the fact that this is a new kind of Avenue, if you like, for your work as a way, because not only is this a co authorship situation that, but there’s also an illustrator involved, and you’ve talked a little bit about how the layout of the page is doing a lot of the work and sort of helping create the the argumentative structures and to point people in particular directions. I’m wondering, if you can take us a little bit through that process, what was it like coming together to collaborate on that visual as well as the written

Dr Emma Southon 23:59
fun? I’m not a visual thinker, so the what the page looked like was probably the bit that I was least involved in. We had kind of as we were going through. So what we did was we went through and put together, like a chronology of what we thought the chapter should be and what we wanted to include and how to break it up. And then we went through and sat on Zoom for hours, and like, chapter by chapter, we’re like, what’s the funniest way to do this chapter? And then we wrote them. So I would do the research, and then send loads of research to Greg, and he would write it and send it back to me, and then I would edit it and fiddle about with it and send it back to him. And then we would go back and forth. And then we basically sent a giant Word document, and we came would come up with kind of ideas of things that we would think were funny to for it to look like, but we basically then sent the text to Rikin and then he drew what he thought were funny, basically versions about Greg thinks of jokes really easily, like visual jokes, because of his work in TV. So sometimes he. Would put in a LIKE, Would it be funny to have like? When I found, archeologists have found skulls, cow skulls with Roman bullets in them, because the Roman army would use cows as target practice, or were just shooting cows for fun, which is bizarre. And so he was like, we have to have a picture of we have to have a picture of that. Or he would think of a caption, and then we would send that to Rikin, and then Rikin and just drew loads. And part of it is of what the page looks like is done by the editors, because it has to fit onto a certain amount of pages, essentially. And so we would lose text in order to keep a picture, or lose a picture in order to keep text. And so go went through probably 10 or 12 different iterations of what the page is going to look like. If we have this image here, the joke is before, like, the visual joke is before the paragraph, so we’re going to have to shift it around. But if we do that, then it’s going to push the visual joke onto the next page. So we’re going to have to cut out like 13 words of this paragraph so that it will all fit on this one page. And it’s a very kind of careful I have a lot more appreciation for kids books and illustrated books now, of the of how much work goes in, like page by page, to making sure that you don’t end up with a big bit of blank space. You don’t end up with a especially because we’ve got like, three layers of text. We’ve got the Greg’s text and then the interruptions. And some of them are interruptions and some of them are definitions, so where I’ve underlined something and then defined it, and keeping that all on the one page so that the jokes run in the right order, and that the paragraph doesn’t ruin the visual joke, and the visual joke doesn’t come completely out of context, is quite an undertaking, and I now have a lot of respect for children’s books editors who would happen to balance this like very visually that I did not have before. I did not appreciate them as much as I should have. So it is quite present. And sometimes I sent Rikin a lot of visual references so that everything would be as accurate as possible. So when we have at the beginning, when they you start seeing things like cosmetic mixes, cosmetic sets like appear in southern Britain. I was like, we should totally like, we’re gonna have if we can’t be having like, I don’t need. Want you to be having like, a mirror and a brush. I want it to be a Roman cosmetic set. Don’t look like what you consider to be a cosmetic set. It looks like a pestle and mortar. That’s tiny. But he was great asking for more. What does this look like? What does an actual pot look like? Like one of the original pots he drew? I was like, No, that’s a Greek pot. Sorry, I love you, but that like, there’s a difference between a Greek pot and a Roman. And you’ve drawn a Greek pot, and I need you to draw me a Roman. Like, the handles are smaller, the neck is different. And so we did go kind of back and forth, a few on that, but he really wanted to be accurate as well. So he I would send him, like, big PDFs full of images, often drawings of things from bar reports. And he would make them funny. God bless him. That

Dr G 28:17
is an art, I think, being able to take, you know, archeological drawings, and turn them into something hilarious as well as informative at the same time.

Dr Emma Southon 28:26
And we really did our best to be like, you know, what’s the difference between a Roman chariot and a like, I see any chariot like, do we know? What can we tell? How do we make them look different? What does what’s the difference between a Greek pot and a Roman so we’re not misleading people.

Dr Rad 28:44
And, yeah, yeah, well, I mean, and I think that that you’ve actually highlighted something which is also a bit of a departure for you, which is that you have most definitely been writing for adults in your previous books, all the murder, yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 28:58
all the murder, all the swearing. Oh, yeah, exactly. Development jokes, not.

Dr Rad 29:04
So what was it like having to write for children?

Dr Emma Southon 29:07
I was very lucky that I was with Greg, so he did the first draft of everything. And he obviously has been writing for kids for a very long time, and he has other kids books that he has written. This was his third or fourth one, and he did a he’s like, does he did a podcast series for kids during the lockdown called homeschool history, like he knows how to make children laugh, and he has a kid and he’s not afraid of them like I am. So he did the first pass, basically, of everything, and then I just went through and was either like, I understand the sentence, or just kind of tweet things. So I was very it felt like a kind of apprenticeship in a way of seeing Greg do his thing, and I would give him, like, quite dense 1520, page research articles that I would written up, or like lists of things. You know what? It. All the things I thought would be interesting for this chapter. And he would pare those down into 2000 words of that contained a ton of jokes for kids and some references to like, robot hamsters, or like it is a real work of genius to be able to do this and make it like, snappy and funny and yeah, and then we would just edit it down together until it got kind of littler and littler. And the only bit I wrote by myself was, which was by the time we had got, like, quite a few chapters in, was the myth buster part on the on Hadrian’s Wall. So I’d seen him write like, six or seven chapters by that point, so I felt like I could have a go. And then he edited it into something better. But it is a real it’s a real art form to talk to kids and entertain them without patronizing them, and without being like cost you the clown or something. And so it was or doing what I do to children in real life, which is to talk to them like they’re just adults, but smaller. Charles, how was your day at work? Let’s

Dr Rad 31:10
please talk about the difference between Roman and Greek pots. It’s very important that you understand the subtle differences.

Dr Emma Southon 31:15
I do as an example of how I usually am with children, I was talking to my nephew quite recently. It was his 21st birthday. And he I took him out for dinner, and we were out, and he said, Do you remember Auntie Emma when I was about six and you taught me what genocide was? I was like, yes,

Dr Rad 31:38
that is exactly the kind of thing that I would do.

Dr G 31:42
I mean, if it comes up in conversation and it’s the right time to learn the information I don’t I mean,

Dr Emma Southon 31:48
in my defense, he had, he was in a school that was very progressive, and they had decided to name all of their classes after countries, like each year group was a continent and each class was a country. The year before, he had been in hedgehog class, and this year, I asked him what class he was in, and he said, Cambodia. Oh, God. Well,

Dr Rad 32:07
that makes total sense that you would instantly go there. And so after

Dr Emma Southon 32:11
some questioning, we obviously got around to Cambodian history, fair enough. And yeah, and he considers a very formative part of his like, he’s now very politically engaged, and he’s a journalist, so I feel like I did a good job, but still,

Dr Rad 32:24
I think that’s one of the things, yeah, that is one of the things I find when you’re actually talking to a small child, because I also have a couple of nephews who are toddlers at the moment, and I find that it’s one of those things where I’ll just be talking to them normally, just as I’m like, you know, bustling around, and I’ll just say something, and then all of a sudden, as the words leave my mouth, I’m like, Oh no, that’s gonna lead to more questions. And I don’t know what their parents want me to say about this. And I literally did that the other day, where I was talking about how I was a step parent and that, and then I was like, oh no, oh no. That’s gonna lead to questions about what. What does that involve? And so I had to go through the whole thing of, look, so you know those people I call my children? Yeah, they weren’t actually ever inside of me. Oh crap, yeah. And I think, I think we ended up finishing the conversation with him, concluding that to have a step parent means that you have three mothers. And I was like, yep, you know what? Let’s just Yeah.

Dr G 33:21
We can clear that up. That’s

Dr Emma Southon 33:23
worse things that could come out. But

Dr Rad 33:26
yeah, so I am terrible at explaining things to really small

Dr Emma Southon 33:28
children. Yeah, they’re very challenging. That’s why they can see right through you. And this is the thing with writing for kids and talking to kids really like they, they know, if you’re like, trying to bullshit them, they can. They don’t have time for any kind of patronizing them or pretending like they and so you have to be enthusiastic, and you have to take them seriously. And that was which is good, because that’s what I like to do, I take everything well, that’s not true. I don’t take everything seriously, but I do take history,

Dr Rad 34:05
I think seriously underneath hilarious on the top, yeah, exactly.

Dr Emma Southon 34:08
And I wouldn’t have done a book for children if it had been anything other than what Greg does, which is to teach kids history, not just teach them history facts like or history stories, but teach them what history is and what historians do, and that history is largely arguing and interpretation. It’s not just like a static series of stories or facts or myths. It is a kind of constantly evolving discipline, and he takes that very seriously indeed. And then does robot hamster jokes.

Dr G 34:50
This actually leads me into something that I did want to ask you about, because this book has things like the the chaos ratings in it, as you as you go through. True. And, you know, this is obviously a really great mechanism, I think, for giving us sort of a little bit of a foreshadowing of what is to come or indicating just how complex the thing that is about to be discussed is going to be. And I’m wondering about how, like, a feature like that may have evolved during the discussion process.

Dr Rad 35:18
Yeah, because that’s the historic graphical bit, I think,

Dr Emma Southon 35:21
yeah, because this is so Greg’s original like pitch for this was that he will be the guy who is living through it, essentially, like he’s in present tense, and he is living through it. And sometimes he you never know what’s coming next. And sometimes what comes next is really chaotic, and like in the moment, you have no clue what’s happening, and the historian can come in and say, Oh, x, y, z is what is occurring. But like, so you have this period at the end, which is, I think, when the chaos meter goes to totally chaotic, when Britain is like in three separate empires, technically, in about a 20 year period. So the Gallic Empire splits away from the Roman Empire in the third century, and then Aurelian brings it back in, and then it splits off into a tiny British Empire, which consists of Britain.

Dr G 36:12
We’re all by ourselves,

Dr Emma Southon 36:14
yeah, for like 10 years, it’s the British Empire, and then it’s back into the Roman Empire again. And so we had that as a news reader, who’s, like, constantly being like, and then this guy’s been murdered, and then this guy’s been murdered, there’s constantly coins like, appearing, which, and who the hell is this guy? And so his feeling is that it like, sometimes it’s going to feel like you don’t know what’s going to happen, like, who you can who’s going to be the Emperor when you wake up tomorrow, who? What Empire Am I in when I wake up tomorrow? Like sometimes when you’re living day to day, it feels totally chaotic and like you don’t know how anything is going to survive, but in you can be, then be a historian, and look back and say, Ah, the forces, an Aurelian is going to come and save everybody, and it’s all going to be okay. Don’t worry, guys. Yeah. And so the chaos meter is basically how the person at the time would be feeling if they were living through this. Are they feeling like they’re in a good, chill, useful time where everything is delightful and it’s the end of history, or are they living in interesting historical times and they feel like they don’t know what their world is going to look like tomorrow, and they’re burying their gold because they’re worried that someone’s going to come and

Dr G 37:26
rob them. Fair enough,

Dr Rad 37:28
I was really impressed by all those additional elements, because, as I say, I think that’s where the historiography comes in, with the accuracy alerts the myth bust, seeing, you know, it was so layered, as you say, I was like, Whoa, there’s like, so much historiography going on on this page, and it’s a children’s book. And I think, without a doubt, this isn’t a question. I’m just saying this, without a doubt, my favorite part was the historian head to head over Buddha cup, mostly because of the illustration of you and Greg fighting each other with books.

Dr Emma Southon 37:56
Yeah, a genuinely delightful Yeah. And, you know, and that is an argument that, for some reason, I tried to keep trying to avoid Boudicca, but you come back to her constantly. I know I’ve accidentally written two books that she’s in, and like there are so many different interpretations of her and so many like that. You know you can talk to French archeologists who argue that she never existed. You can talk to like, really intense patriots who are like she was a woman, and this and like the Tacitus story, is exactly what happened to her, and that is precisely it I kind of like to sit in the middle. And I think that Tacitus is telling a very specific, fictionalized mythic story about her, and that it best, almost no resemblance to the Dio version of her, that these are, you know, she’s a real woman told as a literary device. And but then you have, you know, there’s the Amanda Scott who is like, no, she was Welsh. And Boudicca actually means vodaker, and it means victory. And like there’s so many different ways of understanding her and of of interpreting her, but all we have, really is two guys who know something about her and are writing about her for a very specific political audience, and that kind of arguing about her, that’s what history is, especially ancient history. And you know this, when you’re dealing with Roman texts and you’ve got nothing else to where you’ve got nothing else to work with, it’s just arguing over two guys and how much you want to believe those two guys were telling the truth, and if they were both telling the truth, then why their story is so different?

Dr Rad 39:44
Yeah, look as two people who base their entire podcast basically on Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus for a long time, and we generally do, often get to the point where I end up sort of saying at the end of the episode, so wait, maybe none of this ever actually happened. And Peta’s like, whoa, whoa.

Dr G 39:59
I mean, something happened, like, have we

Dr Rad 40:04
just proven that none of this ever happened?

Dr Emma Southon 40:06
Rome appeared fully formed, 27 BCE with Augustine

Dr G 40:14
before that. We can’t possibly know anything.

Dr Rad 40:20
You know, look, I think it’s, it is amazing how much you guys have been able to show, as you say, what history actually is, which is all these different perspectives, all this problematic evidence. It is amazing that you have been able to delve into all of these issues and cover the entire history of Britain all in one book.

Dr Emma Southon 40:36
Yeah, amazing in like 25,000 words. It’s, yeah,

Dr Rad 40:39
I might have something to learn. So tell us, if people are really keen to dive right in, and we mean physically dive in, are there any places in Britain that you would recommend going?

Dr Emma Southon 40:52
So there are a bunch of villas. So I honestly do think that fishborne is brilliant. It is very much a it’s like an early Roman villa. It’s in Sussex, and it is, it’s like the most Roman of all the Roman villas, but it is amazing, and it is like a genuine delight to see chedworth is also great. And that’s much more of a what’s the word, like British one? But, yeah, it’s a corridor, but it’s also it has great like mosaics, and it’s a great site to go to. The British Museum has all the cool stuff. So, you know, you can’t say no to the British Museum, really, it does have all the best stuff. But the great thing about Britain is you can come one day, me and my husband say we’re going to get an English Heritage membership and just spend a year like driving around Britain looking all the English Heritage stuff, because there’s so much in the way of in every town, there’s something almost every town, there’s something that is Roman, and then, like, my dad lives in Dover, and they have a fort That’s under a car park that you can go to

Dr G 42:04
classic, come to our car park fort, yeah, and

Dr Emma Southon 42:08
then and you can go to Dover.

And Dover Castle has a Roman lighthouse, so it’s still standing. Yes, it’s like next to a 12th century church, but it’s this Roman lighthouse that you can go to and virtually anywhere that you go. And quite often, because we wanted to do a whole chapter on the rediscovery of Roman Britain, because Roman Britain was not appreciated, particularly until, like, the 18th century, when they redug up bath in order to make it kind of Spa, Georgian spa destination. And we discovered all of the stuff in Bath, and all of the stuff there, you can see the Roman stuff, but a lot of it is still buried. And a lot of the stuff that they say is Roman is actually Victorian, but it’s like pseudo neoclassical. It’s still gorgeous. It’s worth going to but and just be aware that it’s not all that, but so much of it was not appreciated. And you get all of these stories of like 17th century, 16th century farmers digging up mosaics and then just chucking them in the bin. Oh, no. Ooh. There was one story that was like from 1840 something of a farmer plowing up a mosaic and then load it being in the papers, and loads of people coming to see them, and then everyone just taking some of it home. And it kind of makes you feel a bit sick,

Dr Rad 43:36
but, and this is my charm, how much stuff I mean when you combine that with all the stories of early archeologists at places like Pompeii and Herculaneum, you know, being like, that’s not important, tossing it out. Give me the good stuff. Just like, Oh my god. How much of this stuff that we complain we don’t have enough of has actually ended up in the bin. But

Dr Emma Southon 43:55
since then, it’s got a bit better. But now virtually every town in Britain has something and it will have a mosaic or something cool and Roman in their like Village Museum, and which is kind of delightful to see how much of it there is just everywhere, and not just the monumental stuff that you get if you go like, there’s no arches, there’s no big buildings, particularly, there’s just lots of little things. I will do one shout out for the Mithraeum in London, actually, if you’re in London, which is in the bottom of the Bloomberg building, but they have a load of they have the oldest writing tablets that have been found in Western Europe, which are from like 100 CE, that were all found in the Thames, and they’re all Business Tablets, so they’re well, boring, but they’re delightful to see. But then what they’ve done with the Mithraeum,with these kind of light show and holograms and this recreation of mithraic worship is really cool to see. Sounds like a delight. Yeah?

Dr Rad 44:58
Indeed. Yeah. I. Never been, actually, even though I’ve been to London several times, I didn’t know was there the last time I

Dr Emma Southon 45:05
was, yeah, you have to, like, go to the business districts and then, like, go into the bottom of a building that really feels like you shouldn’t be in

Unknown Speaker 45:13
this all Bloomberg cannon. But, yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 45:15
but it’s freedom, and it is like an hour, and you get to see, and they’ve got these kind of displays of all of the stuff that they found. Their archeological reports are great as well, actually. But yeah, there’s just so much on the army. You can go up and see all the forts in the north, and you can go and see Hadrian’s Wall and walk along it. And you can go to Vindolanda, although the good tablets are in the British Museum.

Dr G 45:39
Fair warning, fair warning. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 45:41
they do have lots

Dr Rad 45:42
Start at the British Museum, then work your way up.

Dr Emma Southon 45:44
Yeah, pretty much start the bottom, work your way up, drive around. There is a great book, actually, about driving around Roman Britain, by Charlotte Higgins, oh, okay, and she drove around a few years old now, she drove around Britain and went to loads and loads of different Roman sites, and, like really explored the impact that Rome left on on the British landscape that you can still see. So I would recommend that

Dr G 46:10
fantastic. All right. Well, to wrap this up, because this has been a fabulous conversation, as always, we hear that there might be exciting new, upcoming projects in your life

Dr Emma Southon 46:22
there are, and

Dr G 46:23
we’re wondering, if you can tell us hints and tips I can.

Dr Emma Southon 46:26
So the book that I’m writing at the moment is very definitely for adults, and is a kind of big cultural history of slavery in the Roman Empire and all of the ways that slavery was embedded into the Empire, and supported it and made it possible for the Empire to exist, basically, which I’m trying not to make depressing, largely by focusing on people, and as many people as I can that to experience slavery in one day or one way or another, which is everybody in the empire, like there is not one single person in the whole Roman Empire who experienced a day without coming into contact with slavery in some way, either by owning them, being one or dealing with an enslaved person. So that’s the one I’m writing at the moment. And then I have a two book deal now, so there’s minimum of two books coming. So the next one after that is going to be about the Palatine and a history of the Palatine complex, through the emperors who lived there, how it grew, the what was there? What’s going on? Who are these guys? It takes up the takes of, like, two miles of Rome. It takes up like a nearly a quarter of the city in its original walls. It’s enormous, and it’s full of people, and yeah, what’s going on up there, and how it changes, and everybody from the guy who is in charge of import taxes from Alexandria to the guy whose job is to be a sexy human pet.

Dr Rad 48:06
Sounds fascinating. You

Dr G 48:09
can go up that hill, but you don’t know what anybody will ask you to do once you get to the top of the

Dr Emma Southon 48:14
map. You do not and it could be very boring, or it’s almost only gonna be very boring, but it might also be very weird,

Dr G 48:22
amazing. Both of those projects actually sound really incredible and important, actually, because I think for readers who are interested in Rome but haven’t had the opportunity to really study it in depth, the extent to which slavery shapes Rome and how it operates is is massive. And yeah, it needs to be better understood. I think, yeah. And

Dr Emma Southon 48:44
when I talk to people, and I tell people who are not Roman historians that this is what I’m doing 99% of the time, the response is, Oh, I hear slavery in Rome was actually fine, like everybody was freed, and it was basically like being a serf, and you have to be like, no,

Dr G 49:04
actually pretty terrible.

Dr Rad 49:07
Just generally not a good idea. It

Dr Emma Southon 49:09
is still very much slavery. So, yeah,

Dr G 49:12
like, just

Dr Rad 49:14
because it’s better than some forms of Greek slavery, does it mean that people are like, Oh, that’s totally cool. I’ll totally do

Dr Emma Southon 49:21
Yeah. Just because it doesn’t have a philosophy behind it doesn’t mean that it isn’t still slavery, yeah, yeah. So part of it is going to be overcoming the fact that people think that Roman slavery is not really slavery, or they don’t think it’s chattel slavery, or, yeah, or they’re just really focused on one specific form of domestic slavery like that. You are the secretary of Cicero, and therefore you have a certain amount of power, forgetting all of the people in the fields and the mines and their Fullers and the people doing the monstrous jobs that no one will take, you know is being paid to do. They’re doing it forever.

Dr Rad 49:59
Yeah, you gotta think of that opening of Spartacus, because as much as there is zero evidence that that’s what Spartacus originally did, the film does show him working in pretty terrible job. At first, there’s

Dr Emma Southon 50:13
a lot of people talking about like mining and field work and chain gangs and, you know, and how terrible it was, but that’s the next project, which it not forget. Are

Dr Rad 50:25
you sure? I don’t know. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 50:27
I don’t know. Maybe, all right, yeah, just really depressed some children, yeah.

Dr Rad 50:32
Well, that is very exciting. We will be looking forward to hopefully chatting to you again when that is finished. But thank you so much for talking to us today. As usual, we have, not only did we learn a lot from the book, but we learned a lot about the process of producing a book like this. And I definitely would encourage actually adults to read it as well as get it for your kids, because I think you’ll find it’s a genuinely delightful read. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 50:59
I think that everybody will learn a lot from it. There are not that many books on Roman Britain for adults or for anybody that do a big tell you all about it, and this is a good starting point, I think.

Dr G 51:15
Yeah, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for telling us more about this book. So for people who are listening at home or wherever you are out and about, the book is called totally chaotic history. Roman Britain gets rowdy with an exclamation mark. So get the excitement pumping. Get into some historiography. Go and enjoy the whole swath of Roman British history. Yeah,

Dr Rad 51:39
and it is available in e book as well as print and audio book from the sounds of it. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 51:43
my first audio book reading experience, I do a voice. I do a good couple of amusing voices. So if you want to hear me do my first full range of voice acting,

Dr Rad 51:55
how exciting? Yeah, I look forward to hearing what you think Agrippina the younger sounds, all right. Well, thank you so much, and we will definitely be talking to you hopefully shortly about thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show [email protected] Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes, just like this one. However, if you lost all your money betting on a chariot race, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In 398 BCE, the Romans were still enmeshed in their siege at Veii. Whilst the Romans waited, worrying portents started to appear. What did they all mean?

Episode 156 – Kidnapped!

The most concerning portent was a sudden increase in the levels of the lake in the Alban Woods. It was positively spooky. An embassy was despatched to visit the Delphic Oracle so that the mystery could be unravelled.

Lake Albano, courtesy of Istituto Nazionale di Geofisica e Vulconologia.

Whilst the ambassadors were on the road, some casual conversation between enemies led to a revelation.  An old man from Veii seemed to have the answers the Romans needed, and unfortunately this led to him being kidnapped and interrogated. How else could the Romans get the information? They want the truth!

The old man and the Oracle both indicated that the Romans needed to figure out a way to draw off the water from the lake. Then, and only then, Veii would fall, and the Romans would be victorious.

Sounds simple! Just make the water go away, Rome.

OR

OR

Our music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:55
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians I am Dr G, and I am Dr rad, and we are tracing Rome’s history from the foundation of the city. And in this episode, we’re going to be looking at 398 BCE, so we’re right in the early period of the fourth century

Dr Rad 1:18
that we are Dr G. But before we dive into 398 Can we get a quick recap on what happened in 399

Dr G 1:24
It was either a hot summer, a severe snowstorm, or both. Well, I

Dr Rad 1:29
think the snowstorm actually happened in 400

Dr G 1:32
Well, so you say.

Dr Rad 1:34
So I say indeed, although Wait, how do Italian winters work? Wait, when is a winter? Oh, actually, that would make sense. It would span two years. Sorry, being in the southern hemisphere, it took me a moment to figure

Dr G 1:46
that out, yes. And the thing is that the source material doesn’t kind of line up in any other way. So, like that fragment can’t come in earlier than what it already did, or at least not as far as I can tell. So I think there are ways in which Livy and Dionysius might be a little bit out of sync with each other, and that’s fine, because there is that sort of prerogative around the 10 year siege. So we’re in this period of time where we know that Rome is and the writers of Rome are making up some of the time because they want this siege of a to take 10 years, just like the Trojan Well, yeah, they want to have this beautiful mirror to the Trojan War. So things are a little bit haphazard. Things are a little bit out of sync. And even when we look at our comparative source material from somebody like Diodorus Siculus, they’re out by a couple of years every time,

Dr Rad 2:38
exactly. And so, as a result of all this terrible weather, the Romans had to throw a gigantic party for themselves and for the gods. Most importantly, and the patricians decided to blame it all on the fact that there were so many plebeians elected to serve as magistracies.

Dr G 2:55
I mean, where else would terrible weather come from? Naturally? So, yeah. So this means that we head into 398 with the pretty traditional patrician chip on the shoulder about plebeians and what’s going on there. And I guess we’re gonna see how that plays out for them. Exactly.

Dr Rad 3:16
All right. Dr, G, let’s do it 398 BC, you

Dr G 3:37
so this year we have military tributes with consular power. It has been foreshadowed, and now we’re here.

Dr Rad 3:44
And the names, Dr, G, such sweet music to my ears, because they’re so familiar.

Dr G 3:50
Oh well, some of them, at the very least, exactly, Lucius, Valerius, Potitus, yeah, yeah, you’ve heard of him before. It sounds familiar. Is familiar previously, Military Tribune in 414, 406, 403 and 401

Dr Rad 4:04
It’s nice to have an experienced hand back at the wheel, all

Dr G 4:08
hands on deck, especially potituses. We also have Marcus Valerius Lactucinus, Maximus. Lactucinus

Dr Rad 4:19
of all sounds like a disease that you get when there’s too much pollen around. Well,

Dr G 4:23
interestingly, I

Dr Rad 4:24
did look this up because, yay. Wait, did have to do with milk? Oh, no,

Dr G 4:29
it has to do with lettuce, as in salad leaves.

Dr Rad 4:34
So the most insane thing I’ve ever heard. Well, I don’t

Dr G 4:38
know. Is it any worse than Cicero, the chickpea. So the early Republican period, this name Lactocinus, or Lactucinus, if we go with a really hard seat, is related to, etymologically, the word for lettuce.

Dr Rad 4:55
He should marry his daughter to someone in the Cicero family so that they can have a salad. They could make salad together. Oh, yeah.

Dr G 5:02
So yeah, this seems to be one of the things. They’re not that common. A few of them crop up in this century, and we’re going to see one later on as well. But yeah, pretty rare. This guy is a new kid to the block. Never been a military Tribune before, so he must be pretty excited. This

Dr Rad 5:20
also doesn’t really add up with what they said in the previous year, which is that they were putting their very best candidates out. I mean, how can this guy be the best candidate who’s never held the office before? I don’t

Dr G 5:30
think you understand how best works from a patrician perspective.

Dr Rad 5:34
I know I’m just putting it out. I’m switching perspectives from all over the place. Sometimes I’m plebeian and sometimes I’m patrician. Just when you think I’m gonna Zig. I zag.

Dr G 5:42
think he was born that way, and that’s what makes him great. Yeah, we also have Marcus Furius Camillus.

Dr Rad 5:50
Come on, the Furii.

Dr G 5:54
of the story. He emerges. He’s here previously, military Tribune in 401, so quite recently, yeah, Andy’s Beau and Lucius furious. Medullinus

Dr Rad 6:06
definitely recognize this name, yeah. So

Dr G 6:09
a couple of Furii’s in this gang. Well, of course. I

Dr Rad 6:12
mean, if you’re putting forward your best, you’re putting forward the Furii, obviously, of course. I mean, I’m disappointed that none of them are Spurius Furius, but still,

Dr G 6:19
that’s true, although Camillus is the grandson of a Spurius Furius, that’s as good as it gets. So Lucius Furius Medullinus was previously consul in 413, and 409 so way more illustrious than the military Tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 6:38
Seems so long ago that we talked about consul.

Dr G 6:40
Yeah, it’s been a hot minute,

and he was also a military Tribune with consular power in 407 and 405 so definitely experienced. Well, experienced. Yeah. Next we have Quintus, Servilius Fidenas, ah, yes, previously, military tribune in 402 and Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Cornutus, also military Tribune with consular power in 402

Dr Rad 7:10
the old gang is back together. Yeah,

Dr G 7:13
the boys are back now. I also have the names of some ambassadors or legates, or legates, people who hold some minor but significant positions enough that it gets named in the year. We know who they are, apparently, almost somewhat kind of,

Dr Rad 7:35
we

Dr G 7:36
have parts of their names. I have a lot of oars in this list. Yes, me too. Yeah. So we’ve got Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus. Now, this guy, fabulous patrician background, previously military Tribune in 406, 404 and 401 wow. Yeah, he’s getting around. But now he’s been, he’s been given some sort of task this year, we’ll find out what it is.

Maybe the taskmaster shall tell you, Ambassador,

Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus. Question mark, not a patrician.

Dr Rad 8:10
No, he’s a guy. He’s the first one, you know, the

Dr G 8:14
only one, according to Livy, apparently, in 400

Dr Rad 8:16
exactly the inoffensive one. Oh, the palatable How could you forget someone as beige as him, the palatable plebeian? Exactly,

Dr G 8:27
he opened the door for the radicals of the following year, who

Dr Rad 8:31
did nothing and yet still got blamed for everything.

Dr G 8:34
I thought their military victories were quite significant, really. No, I know, but that’s what I mean.

Dr Rad 8:37
Like, they did nothing wrong, but they still got blamed for everything. Disaster.

Dr G 8:42
Yeah. So they are joined by these two guys. Are joined by a Lucius, Valerius Potitus, same guy as above. Apparently, you could be a military Tribune with Constable of power and be an ambassador, slash leggett, with your patrician. You can be anything. I mean, we could hire somebody else for the job, but I’ve just decided to hire myself.

Dr Rad 9:01
I just so qualified.

Dr G 9:03
I’ve looked at the candidates, and I’ve decided I should be the boss. I

Dr Rad 9:06
am clearly the man for the job, indeed. And that job, and that job, in fact,

Dr G 9:11
all the jobs, exactly. And that’s how we get kings. Everybody. Be careful. Now we’re not entirely certain that this is set in stone. This is one of the ‘ors’. So it’s either this Valerius Potitus, already in a role, or Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusu, who must be related. There’s a lot of similar names here, so Gaius Valerius Potitus, maybe instead of Lucius Valerius potitus, we’ll see now Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus was previously consul in 410 as I’m sure you recall, oh, naturally I never forget. And previously military Tribune with consular power in 415 and 404, some families are really dominating the upper echelons of power. Here they really are. Now we also. Have another or situation. So it could be the case that we have Kaeso,Fabius Ambustus as our last ambassador, legate, or Numerus Fabius Ambustus.

Dr Rad 10:12
the first one sounds for more familiar to me.

Dr G 10:15
The first one is more familiar because they’ve definitely had more roles previously, military Tribune in 410 404 and 401 whereas numerous has only been a military Tribune with consular power once in 406 but it’s anybody’s guess, some of the names are missing. And when we are missing the prey gnome and the first name, and we’ve only got the gens, and then the branch of the gens, it really does put us at a bit of a loss as to who we’re talking about.

Dr Rad 10:48
We’re like Roman names. They’re

Dr G 10:50
from a family, yeah.

Dr Rad 10:52
All right. Dr, G, are you ready for some drama? I am ready. Okay, so as we’ve noted, it’s an oil patrician lineup. And Livy s obviously very into this, because he does actually detail exactly how many times these guys have held the position before, etc, etc. So he wants you to know these guys are elite now. They do not do anything particularly significant at they itself. The siege continues. Well, there’s a surprise, yeah, there’s just some minor pillaging that goes on, you know, just to keep them on their toes. However, it’s time to take out the legs from this campaign. And by that, I mean, you’ve got to get rid of those pesky allies that keep trying to pin Rome between they and themselves, it’s time to take out the Falerii once and for all, exactly, and also, the Capenates hate those guys absolutely. So Potitus is the one who is picked to go against the Falerii the people of Falerii and Camillus is sent against the Capenates. Now I said that dramatically, because Camillus is a figure of note in Roman history. He is now against these enemies. They were able to capture lots and lots of booty, and then they destroyed anything that they didn’t take.

Dr G 12:20
Oh, okay, wow. Okay, yep.

Dr Rad 12:23
Annoyingly, this also was a year where there were lots of portents that were being reported. Dr, G, ah, yes. Now, at first, when they started being reported, it was just one person who saw something weird, and people were like, Hmm, maybe Bob’s gone crazy.

Dr G 12:41
What are you been drinking? Bob, yeah,

Dr Rad 12:43
I don’t think I believe you, but as time went on and more and more were being reported, it started to become concerning, especially because this war with they meant Rome was plung out of Etruscan soothsayers.

Dr G 13:00
Oh, no. I hate it when that happens. But then

Dr Rad 13:04
there was a portent that lots of people saw, and it got everyone really freaked out. Are you ready to hear? What kind of twisted thing would make them think that the world was about to end? I

Dr G 13:16
am interested to hear, particularly since I have some source material this year, so I’m wondering the extent to which our sources are going to agree or disagree on the fantastic things you’re about to tell me, look,

Dr Rad 13:27
it’s a pretty big deal, so I think they are going to line up, but nonetheless, strap yourself in, just in case. Don’t you falling off that chair the lake in the Alban woods, even though there had been no rain or any other sort of water source, suddenly got higher. Yep, there was more water in it, and nobody knew how.

Dr G 13:50
Oh, that’s weird.

Dr Rad 13:53
It was really, I know they were like, where’s the magician? How did they do that? They can’t explain it. And so they decide to send off representatives to the Delphic Oracle. That is a long way from home, it is, and this is where all our legates and ambassadors come in, yeah, however, road trip, yeah, exactly. Let’s get this elite band on the road show some people what we’ve got. However, whilst they’re off checking out the Delphic Oracle, as you say, it’s not close. So it’s happened that an old man of they just wandered out and chipped in his two cents about what this all meant. Now, apparently this was possible, because obviously the Siege has been going on for a number of years. At this point in time, and between the two warring armies, when they weren’t trading insults and having staring contests with each other, they were apparently chatting sometimes.

Dr G 14:54
Oh well, yeah, fair enough. I mean, a siege is a siege. You gotta get bored like bro. What’s happening on your. A third of the world. Yeah.

Dr Rad 15:01
Now I imagine that the way he said this, he didn’t just wander out and sort of casually throw it out there, like, oh, you worried about the lake. Here’s what it means. I think it was very much like the scene in the Harry Potter movies where Emma Thompson’s Professor character, the one who’s like the divination teacher, goes all weird, and, like, goes into a trance, and very clearly, is speaking for somebody else, like on behalf of somebody else, yeah, because I’m saying this, because Livy says he said it in a prophetic strain. Oh, okay, so I’m imagining something quite dramatic.

Dr G 15:38
Yeah, everyone’s like, wait a minute, that guy’s doing prophecy. Yeah, now,

Dr Rad 15:41
see it gets even more dramatic than more water, where no more water should be. What he says is that the Romans would never be able to capture they, whilst the water level remained high, once the water had been drawn off, that was their moment to seize. They once and for all. How strange I know the Romans were like, Yeah, okay, old dude, clearly you’re just trying to psych us out and make us like, even more worried about the lake getting higher. Mysteriously, lies, lies, I say exactly however. They can’t help but keep talking about it amongst themselves. It’s quite the topic of hot gossip. Dr, G, well, I

Dr G 16:26
mean, they’ve just had a really weird experience with like, strange weather events and their first lexternium, all of this sort of stuff. So maybe they’re in they’re in the mood for thinking about, well, what if, yeah.

Dr Rad 16:42
So the Romans started to just like, chat to some of the locals and ask, like, so who was that guy who, like, made that random comment that we’re not thinking about at all. And this, again, just shows how the theaters lasted so long that the Romans and the people they’re totally talking to each other, the Romans discover by talking to the locals that the guy was a genuine, legit soothsayer.

Dr G 17:10
No regular party tricks, but like No, no fundamentally trained in the arts of divination, exactly, trust and style, totally,

Dr Rad 17:18
totally legit. Could not be more above board. So the Roman who’d taken it upon himself, this random Roman guy to chat to the locals, asked if the old guy would come and meet with him, because he’s super, super concerned about this portent. So the Roman, apparently, is quite the charmer. He manages to put the old man at ease when he comes to the meeting. And he also very subtly, starts just walking him away from any of his own folk, walking him well away from his own group. Uh oh. He also made sure that he had no weapons on him when this happened, like the old man had no weapons, and then in plain sight of everyone, he abducts him. I know

Dr G 18:11
people on the walls are vaping like, hey, yeah.

Dr Rad 18:15
Now this is interesting, because apparently not all the sources that tell this story make it an old man and like a younger Roman soldier. And it might have been something that was added to sort of foreshadow that Veii was old and faltering and Rome was young and hot fresh.

Dr G 18:33
Well, look, I mean, it sounds like a reasonable way to approach it. There are some differences, definitely between the account that you’ve just provided from Livy, oh,

Dr Rad 18:43
and it’s not over yet,

Dr G 18:45
and the source material that I have prepared.

Dr Rad 18:47
Okay, which is good. This is good, all right. Now, crazily, the Etruscans cause a huge fuss about this, this kidnap in broad daylight, but the rumors are like, yeah, no, sorry. It doesn’t really matter how much you jump up and down. We’re keeping him. We like him. He’s ours now. Exactly he’s ours now. So they take the old guy to the general, and the general says, What am I going to do with this guy? Send him to the Senate. So he goes off to Rome itself, and the Senate interrogate him intently. They get out the spotlight. They put him in a dark room. They all crowd around him menacingly. There’s a bad cop, good cop, exactly, slapping him around. And they’re like, tell us about the Alban Lake prophecy. Tell us more. The Old Man points out that the gods must have been angry at the people of they to have sent him such a message at such a time, so that the Romans obviously overheard the key to defeating their enemy. I mean, it seems a bit crazy, because it’s telling them exactly what they need to do in order to defeat they they just need to drain the lake. Somehow,

Dr G 19:50
it does seem a bit strange, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Dr Rad 19:54
Now, apparently there was actually a record of this on the Etruscan side of things, so it was written down. Somewhere in Etruscan law. So I guess something like their version of the sibylline books that when the Alban water overflowed, if the Romans could draw it off, they would indeed defeat they but the gods would be by their side until that exact moment the old man then, apparently said, Oh, you’re worried about draining it. Well, this is how you drain it. It’s being very helpful. Wait

Dr G 20:27
a minute,

Dr Rad 20:28
I know inside of his own abduction, he’s super, super helpful.

Dr G 20:33
Yeah, look, I mean, I suppose he has been tortured because he’s now giving up everything he

Dr Rad 20:37
really is. So the senators are like, Really, okay, but they’re not sure if they can trust him, because, after all, he is from the enemy, and it’s super weird that he’s telling them everything with seemingly very little pressure. So they decide that they want to wait and hear what the Delphic Oracle says, because, of course, they’ve got their ambassadors of checking that out. All right, okay. Now, unfortunately, the Group of Ambassadors must have been having a fabulous time, because they did not return very quickly. Well,

Dr G 21:10
I mean, it’s not close. Delphi is not near Italy, really. I mean, think about, how are they going to get there? They either have to go over the Apennines and then they’ve got to take a ship, and then they’ve got to cut across some land, and then they’ve got to get to Delphi, and then they’ve got to do the whole trip in reverse, or they sail around. They go in the opposite direction. In Italy, they head towards Ostia, and then they sail all the way around the foot, all the way around and across to Greece, to Delphi and then all the way back. This is not, it’s not a pleasure jaunt that’s going to take, you know, a couple of weeks. It’s going to take a while.

Dr Rad 21:49
Excuses, excuses, Dr G, but because they’re not back in time, it means that they can’t actually drain the Alvin lake in this year, and therefore they just have to hold on a little bit longer, hold on for one more day,

Dr G 22:04
looking at the lake being like, Excuse me, still high. Yeah. Problems.

Dr Rad 22:10
Now this is all very confusing, because the final thing I’m going to just mention is that I don’t understand what the Alban lake would have to do with they because it’s nowhere near they it’s in completely the other direction. Excuse me, yeah, it’s not near ve at all. And so it’s really strange that this is mentioned in connection with this story. And even stranger, dr, G, I have archeological proof that something did go down with the Alban Lake.

Dr G 22:41
Oh, yes, likewise, yeah, there are some odd things with the Alban lake. So would now be a good time to mention some different source material into these.

Dr Rad 22:53
Feel free.

Dr G 22:54
Hmm, well, well, well, I have a few sources. Dionysus of Halicarnassus is first. Then we’ve got a bit from Plutarch, and then we also have a bit from Cicero. My

Dr Rad 23:07
goodness, diversity,

Dr G 23:09
you know, find my sources where I can Dionysus of Halicarnassus being back is great, to be honest. And I enjoy the fact that that this is one of these moments where there’s an A new parallel to be drawn with Livy and some distinctions to be made. So he opens this situation talking about the rising of the Dog Star. So this is Sirius, the brightest star in the in the sky, and talks about how that period of the rising of the Dog Star is related to a whole bunch of water events where lakes tend to fail and rivers tend to dry up, but the Nile, as an exception, has its inundation. So he sets up this whole sort of like water and the time of the stars. And then he talks about the Alban mount. Now, the Alban mount and the associated lake are in that Castelli Romani region to the south east of Rome, and really importantly, tie into the foundation story of Rome. So it is weird that we have this coming out in an Etruscan soothsaying situation, because it doesn’t tend to have a traditional association with the Etruscans, at least as far as we’re aware. Nevertheless, we’re talking about a similar region, like they and Rome are very close to each other. This is true, and while Rome would be on the way to the album mount. If you were from ve it’s still not that far, really. So they’re in the same region, essentially. One of the odd things that Dionysius tells us is that there had not been rain or snowstorms that could account for what happens with the lake. Which is weird, because previously, in the last year that just passed, we did have the unprecedented almost seven foot snowstorm in Rome. And I’m like, Are you sure you didn’t have any snow recently? Because I might explain it. I feel like you guys just talked about, like, the most outlandish and unheard of before or after snowstorm in Rome’s history.

Dr Rad 25:26
They have every right to be freaked out by this mysterious water that came from nowhere.

Dr G 25:30
Where did the water come from? I’m so confused. It’s not

Dr Rad 25:34
like we just had all this snow and then a really, really hot summer that melted it all. No

Dr G 25:38
idea. I’m perplexed, a mystery. I am purplex The gods. And the other thing to keep in mind about the Alban mount is it is a volcanic lake, so it’s, Oh, I did not know that, yeah. So it may be fed by some spring systems, but the rock itself underneath it is going to be pretty porous. So you’re not expecting the lake to ever rise a lot, it would have it would take an all enormous amount of water to raise the lake

Dr Rad 26:06
so scary. Dr, G, yeah,

Dr G 26:09
because it’s constantly sort of like slowly dissipating out through the mountain and down out into other regions. And that’s what makes the water so delicious, and it’s what makes it so good for growing grapes and things like that. The wine from that region is really well known. So all of these things, you’re like, Okay, well, it is weird that the lake has raised so significantly, although within the context of a snowstorm, maybe not so much, but leaving those

Dr Rad 26:37
crucial leave your logic at the door, please. I

Dr G 26:40
feel like Dionysius didn’t read back his previous draft. He just kept going forward. He sits down for a new day, and he’s like to to whoever he’s dictating this to, because we don’t think he put pen to paper himself. You know. He’s not like, you know, just give me the heads up on what just happened. And he’s like, nope, starting fresh. All right, so 398, there has been no snow. Anyway. This whole situation with the lake is so significant because it floods. So it raises above all of its conceivable threshold limits, and it starts to flood places, and the water runs down out of the Alban mount into the surrounding plains. Now this is a problem for Rome, because Rome is in the surrounding plains. Yeah, disaster. Also. There’s plenty of other towns along the way. So that’s a problem for everybody.

Dr Rad 27:34
You know. You think they just say that, you know that it flooded. It flooded, yeah? Rather than saying, Oh, my God, there’s so much water,

Dr G 27:44
where will it go? It goes out of the lake and down the mountain, that’s where it goes, that pallet makes sense to me. So I think it’s interesting that Livy didn’t sort of tap into that what seems to be like a key piece of like, just knowledge about how water might work. But anyway, it’s not his thing. So the Romans in general think that the gods might be mad at them fair enough, and it’s time to do some ritual propitiation of the gods in order to make things okay. And ask local bankers

Dr Rad 28:17
banquet, was it enough? They even had catches? Yeah, look,

Dr G 28:20
The lectisternium is over, guys, we can’t do another one of those just yet. Who would we invite

Dr Rad 28:27
these guards?

Dr G 28:29
So the local soothsayers apparently didn’t have a good answer on this situation, and this is what led to sending a delegation to the Delphic Oracle. Like you can’t get an answer, you need an answer. It’s time to visit Delphi anyway. That’s a long trip. So fair enough. But in the meantime, over in Fay, it turns out that one of the inhabitants of Veii

Dr Rad 29:00
is a man

Dr G 29:03
no is a holder of the knowledge of augural science.

Dr Rad 29:09
Birds, again,

Dr G 29:12
who the knowledge of which has been inherited from his ancestors. And the Etruscans are famous for their augury. So this is one of their ways of doing divination that that is really nice. And it turns out that if you’ve been in a siege for about five or six years, maybe you’ve struck up some acquaintances and friendships on either side of the wall. And this guy from they has ended up being mates with one of the Roman centurions, nameless, sadly, naturally, who knows some guy anyway? These two dudes, they get together every so often, have a bit of a chat. You know, they see each other wave from like, you know, down on the ground, from up on the wall, mate, let’s go.

Dr Rad 29:58
I’m not gonna kill you today.

Dr G 29:59
No. You starving yet? Why you’re looking good. Consider you got no food, all that sort of stuff. And apparently, on one of these days, this guy from ve remarks that he pities the Roman Centurion because of the calamity that is going to befall him and everybody, if the city is captured,

Dr Rad 30:19
wait, if Veii is captured, or if Rome is captured, it must be a captured, right?

Dr G 30:24
Oh no, the centurion, sorry. Oh, right, sorry, yes, yes, not the guy from me, the centurions, like, look, I’m, you know, sorry for you guys. You know it’s gonna end badly. We’re gonna capture the city. It’s gonna be a disaster. Yeah,

Dr Rad 30:35
you already so we did to your allies. It wasn’t pleasant. Sorry

Dr G 30:39
about that. Yeah, and then the Etruscan guy says, Well, you know, that’s interesting that you say that because you’re actually quite ignorant of what is going to happen in this situation. Because, you know, we’re in this endless war, fruitless toil, and you think you’re going to overthrow the city of Veii, and it seems like you don’t understand that there is a whole prophecy related to this. So nobody told you about the kind of

Dr Rad 31:13
reading your sibling books.

Dr G 31:15
So as an atratuscan, what I can tell you is you don’t know the prophecy, and it’s fated that they will be captured only when and only if the lake beside the album mount is lacking in its natural springs and is no longer able to mingle its waters with the sea.

Dr Rad 31:35
Hmm. Okay, that’s a bit more specific than mine. Yeah.

Dr G 31:39
So the idea that the lake actually feeds into a whole bunch of sort of tributary systems and eventually leads into the sea, which, you know, sounds pretty reasonable geographically. And I think the guy from Veii is feeling really confident as well being like, well, obviously, you know, you’re never going to be able to cut off a lake and a river system from the sea. That’s just not how things work. Boy, has this guy underestimated the Romans

Dr Rad 32:10
and their determination to beat them?

Dr G 32:13
So the Roman centurion is kind of like, this sounds serious, but it does sound like we’ve got, like, a way out here as well. And he tells the tribunes that he’s got a bit of a plan, and he’s wondering if he can move forward with it. And they’re kind of like, well, sure. I mean, I guess. I mean, let’s see what happens. It can’t be any worse than anything else we’ve been trying recently. So the Roman centurian is like, the next day to the guy from Veii, like, let’s have a chat, man to man, mano e mano, let’s do this thing. And the guy from Veii’s like, sure, you know, we can have a more fulsome chat about prodigies and things like that. That’s fine. And as they’re going for a bit of a walk away from the walls, it’s at that moment that the Centurion grabs the guy from Veii around the waist picks him up and runs away with him abduction and carries him off to the Roman camp, to the surprise of perhaps the guy from Veii, but not to the military tribunes who approved this plan ahead of Time, of course. So the tribunes, they use arguments. They threaten to torture this guy.

Dr Rad 33:25
Oh, okay, so in my account, it seems like he just gave everything up very easily. No,

Dr G 33:31
he doesn’t give things up very easily. They eventually send this guy to the Senate, because he doesn’t seem to be giving them any more fulsome detail. And he kind of just sort of states the same thing over to the Senate as well. Some of the Senate appear to think that this guy must be a bit of a huckster, a charlatan, somebody who’s just lying through their teeth to try and get the Romans worried. And others are kind of like, seems legit, you know, gotta? You gotta listen to the soothsayers. You wouldn’t want to dismiss somebody who’s got augural science in their background, would you so got the birds only sad? Yeah, the birds are with him. So it’s in this moment when we have the guy from Vay in front of the Senate and they’re disagreeing about whether they believe him or not, that the ambassadors that had been sent to Delphi earlier return, just in the nick of time. Oh, okay, yeah. So we’ve got this moment of the coming together of the guy from Veii, who is telling this story about the urban Lake and how, you know, if it’s cut off from the sea, that means Rome will win. That’s when they will fall. That’s when it’s foretold, and that’s the only time that it could happen. But now the guys from Delphi are back, and they’re like, Oh, well, this is interesting, because it turns out that the Delphic Oracle agrees with this an Etruscan prophecy. That’s what she’s told us as well. That’s what she said they’re like, ah. So this then sets in motion a whole train of action. There’s a sense in which that Dionysius, at this point, starts to talk about the gods and the genii of the city of they and the genii are this personification of divine force that is supposed to live in every person. So the idea that there is, there are gods of a place, and Genii sort of embedded in the people that also reflect the place, seems to be this sort of thing. And the idea that the good fortune of the city is really held in place by the gods and the corresponding genii, and this is where the Romans decide that it might be time to test out this prophecy by taking some action. That’s

Dr Rad 36:03
interesting, actually, because one of the academics I was reading about this passage mentioned that the idea of the gods deserting they and therefore that being the moment when the city finally falls is meant to once again, be really matching up with the narrative of the Trojan War and the gods deserting Troy. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Very

Dr G 36:29
interesting. Yeah. So this idea that the character and strength of a is somehow tied to the divinities, but is also tied into prophecy and somehow connected to this Alban Lake specifically. So there is a sense of location involved as well, and that, yeah, the fate of the city is in the balance in this moment. So the Romans come up with what I think is a very quintessential Roman problem solving for a prophecy like this. Let

Dr Rad 37:08
me guess it involves construction. We’re gonna

Dr G 37:11
dig some channels, guys. Let us divert the water that flows out of the Alban Lake and make sure that it no longer runs into the sea. That’s how we’re going to win this war.

Dr Rad 37:26
Smart, ARB,

Dr G 37:28
true. Smart, I did some Roman engineering. What I find fascinating about this whole tale is that, on the one hand, it sounds very much like the person from Veii is just trying to provide a distraction tactic and keep the Romans busy. Keep the Romans busy in the opposite direction.

Dr Rad 37:47
Yeah, exactly like suddenly the geography makes sense. You need to

Dr G 37:51
be looking over at the Alban Lake, guys. That’s where the problem lies. Not I mean, we’re going to be here until that problem is solved. So if you go over there and fix that and then come back here, and in the meantime, everybody in Veii is like, sort of laughing in the corner being like they fell for it.

Dr Rad 38:11
That’s it’d be hilarious if it weren’t for the fact that they actually will be defeated. Well,

Dr G 38:16
that that is the real problem for this narrative, I think, yeah, but they’re not going to fall straight away. So in that sense, we’ve got a bit of a problem, because the Romans are now out doing various engineering works on the plains south of Rome, away from Veii to try and divert some water courses. And it’s kind

Dr Rad 38:35
of wild to think that you can actually still see, presumably, this tunnel that Livy and Dionysius and everyone was talking about that it actually still exists. I have heard it mentioned as well in one of the sources I was looking at that maybe, rather than being a diversion, very cleverly devised by the people of a maybe it had something to do with hygiene. You know, if the Romans are worried about plague or dealing with pestilence, you know, given all the environmental things that have gone on, maybe it was something to do with improving, like water flow, water supply, hygiene, something like that in their area.

Dr G 39:18
I think there’s reasonable grounds to assume that the locals in the area have done works around the lake in order to mitigate its potential for flooding like that would just make sense. Yes. So in order to it, because it’s it functions a little bit like a dam, and if you need to let some runoff happen, and you’ve got the capacity to control that a little bit. That’s preferable to letting it flood wherever it wants to and making it really, really difficult for people who live around that lake. Yeah. So controlling that environment, I think, is something that makes sense for the locals in the area, whether the Roman specific. Did it in connection to this prophecy? Is a whole other question. And one of the sources that I encountered for this that was considered to be modern scholarship, but it was, it did feel more like a 19th century Grand Tour journal. Was a guy who was like, I’ve just gone to try and find these tunnels related to this Alban lake. And boy, did I succeed. And I had to tie some rope around some olive trees and swing on over find out what’s going on. I was like, This is hilarious and very interesting. So there’s definitely engineering work that have that has been done that is related to the Alban Lake, for sure. The connection with this as early as this period on unclear, but the dating is Yeah. The dating might be Yeah. Well, definitely, there seems to be some grounds for this kind of idea. Now, whether you want to buy into this whole narrative, but Dionysius continues with more detail here as well, because it’s not just that the Romans go about this engineering work. The people in Veii find out about the engineering work, and they become incredibly concerned that the prophecy is about to come true the wrong way. Yeah,

Dr Rad 41:17
it makes it sound less like a clever diversion on that part. Well,

Dr G 41:20
apparently they become really quite concerned, and they send one of their most senior soothsayers at that point to the Romans as an envoy, and

Dr Rad 41:32
he’s like, we take it all back. We didn’t mean it,

Dr G 41:35
not that they didn’t mean it, but that they actually wished to end the war they wanted to, oh, my god, yeah. So they sent somebody really senior to the Romans to say, we would like to see an end to this siege. And, wow, we will give up. They and it’s at that point that the Roman Senate votes against peace. Holy

Dr Rad 42:02
crap. I’m glad you can’t see me right now. Dr, G, because my mind blown all over the walls.

Dr G 42:09
I’m sorry to hear it, because your brain is very special. The fact that it’s everywhere now is it’s a problem.

Dr Rad 42:17
We’re gonna have to put that back together again. We’ll deal with that later, after the audio,

Dr G 42:22
so yeah, the Senate votes against peace, which is a poor choice. I would say. You know, if people are willing to not fight and give up a place, ideally say yes, yeah,

Dr Rad 42:36
why would you want Is it because they really think that they have to do things according to the prophecy.

Dr G 42:42
Oh, they actually it’s not at all clear. Dionysius doesn’t give us like the rationale for why the Senate doesn’t want peace, okay, but does record the reaction of the envoy who really digs into them and says, What kind of place are you that you will not accept the submission of a city like who do you think you are, that we think we’re room, that when a city comes to you and says, we’re going to lay down our arms and surrender, that you would rather destroy it root and branch like what kind of people are you in the face of the gods that you would make that kind of decision? I

Dr Rad 43:30
feel like this is building to a larger narrative that Dionysius might have in mind. It has something to do with something that happens to Rome after they managed to conquer they

Dr G 43:44
no spoilers. So that’s Dionysius account of the situation, okay, and then we have plutarchs Life of Camillus. And obviously the focus is on Camillus, and so

Dr Rad 44:02
naturally he mentions the whole escapade against the Capenates. Yeah,

Dr G 44:06
Tribune for the second time, you know, for the present, he had nothing to do with the siege, because he was busy waging war with the Valerians. Oh, okay, and the capernatos. Oh, okay,

Dr Rad 44:21
there you go. And

Dr G 44:23
so he was a busy boy, not involved with the siege, but that’s very exciting. But then Plutarch also shifts into talking about the calamity of the Alban Lake.

Dr Rad 44:33
Oh, wow. Everyone’s very concerned about these water levels.

Dr G 44:37
This lake is considered to be an incredible prodigy. Yeah, tell me about it. No natural cause. Nobody knows where the water came from. It had been neither rainy nor nor had Rome been vexed with South winds,

Dr Rad 44:58
once again, overlooking this. Yeah,

Dr G 45:02
yeah. So the rivers had run low, so there could be no explanation at all for why the Alban Lake, on the other hand, was already somehow rising above its natural levels, swelling until it reached the skirts of the mountain and gradually touching the highest ridges.

Dr Rad 45:24
Sounds pretty pervy. Yeah,

Dr G 45:27
it is those skirts. They’re rising. Oh, yeah. This was considered a prodigy already, apparently, by the local shepherds and herdsmen. They had looked at the lake. They saw it first. They’re like, This is bad. The gods are involved, and then the waters break, and Plutarch describes this massive torrent coming down out of the mountain all of a sudden and flooding everything in its path, ruining the vineyards for which this mountainous area is so famous for, and heading all the way to the sea, which, if you’re in the urban mount, you can’t see the sea in the distance. So, I mean, it’s the least within, you know, a reasonable visual range. And everyone’s dismayed. Obviously, Rome’s it’s a problem for Rome and the inhabitants. It’s a problem for everybody in the local area. It’s all very low lying. Everyone in Rome, I imagine, is like running up to the tops of hills being like, Oh no. Then we get the similar sort of story about the soothsayer from Veii being on intimate and confidential terms with one of the Roman soldiers. Man

Dr Rad 46:35
three sources and still no names,

Dr G 46:39
no But similarly, the guy from Veii gets abducted by the soldier just they’re just friends, just two men, one abducting the other one with a prophecy. It

Dr Rad 46:51
sounds like the kind of friendship you should probably expect during a siege, to be fair to the Romans.

Dr G 46:57
So in that sense, Plutarch is a pretty good parallel. It sounds it reads like Plutarch read Dionysius of halicanassus is one of his major sources. Oh, and Livy, no, but he doesn’t have Livy s details. He has Dionysius. Yeah, I’m just kidding. Um, so I’m sorry he might have read Livy and decided that that one didn’t really convince him quite as much

Dr Rad 47:21
as, Oh, someone’s cooking now that she’s got her sauce material back,

Dr G 47:27
my sauces are back, guys, finally, we can know the truth about robes

Dr Rad 47:31
history. Yeah, I told by the Greek

Dr G 47:35
an impartial source to be sure. Oh,

Dr Rad 47:39
dear. All right, well, I think that probably does that wrap us up for 398,

Dr G 47:43
yeah, mostly. So this does get a mention in Cicero’s on divination as well,

Dr Rad 47:49
of course, on divination. Yes,

Dr G 47:53
he talks about this, not in terms of abduction of the soothsayer from Veii, but as a desertion, which might tie in quite nicely with Livy s version of events actually true. Yeah. So the idea that this guy from Veii gives up all of this detail so willingly,

Dr Rad 48:11
he’s just like, Oh, please don’t take me. Oh no, no, I’m on the other side. I have a prophecy that could really help you, and I have a prophecy that says that my city’s gonna fall in a couple of years. Oh no, I know what. I got a room. Don’t take me to the other side. That’s gonna win. I’d hate for that to happen exactly with my people, exactly. I need to be here when everything really goes tits up.

Dr G 48:36
That gives a sense like Cicero is more leaning into the desertion aspect of this and how that might play out, and certainly also conveys this idea that perhaps the people of a are really just war tired at this point.

Dr Rad 48:52
Well, yeah, they haven’t been able to get out, yeah, and

Dr G 48:55
they do, again, send an envoy to Rome, and they do seek peace at this point, and we don’t see peace. So it’s it’s glossed over a little bit, and there’s not as much detail about that in Cicero as we get in Dionysus of Halicarnassus. But certainly, this idea that Rome has a peace offer on the table, and they reject it does come through in a couple of different sources.

Dr Rad 49:23
Rome, Rome, you make it hard to root for you. Sometimes

Dr G 49:27
they certainly do. But yes, that is the end of my source material. All right.

Dr Rad 49:31
Well, Dr G, it’s time to wrap up. 398, that means it’s time for the partial pick. Woohoo. An Ow. Who, who? All right. Dr, G, tell us how the partial pick works.

Dr G 49:46
All right. We judge Rome by five categories. We like to think we judge them by their own standards, but really we judge them by a house completely

Dr Rad 49:56
arbitrary.

Dr G 49:58
They can win up to. 50 Golden Eagles under this system, and 10 are potentially on offer in each category. So our first category is military clout, okay,

Dr Rad 50:12
not really what I would call military clout. I mean, there’s a little bit of action in my account. You know, with the military tribunes with concealer power, seems to go, okay, but it’s nothing that spectacular.

Dr G 50:24
Yeah, I think we get Camillus, and that’s about it, but

Dr Rad 50:30
and Potitus.Thank you very much.

Dr G 50:34
Could forget Potitus? I mean, I just did so I can’t give points to somebody I forgot, even within the context of an episode we were talking about him, yeah. I mean, I feel like two, yeah, I’m not. I feel like I’m not in a good position to judge this one, because I

Dr Rad 50:50
feel like two, yeah, one for each of them, for Potitus and Camillus. Oh,

Dr G 50:55
all right. Two, it is our second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 50:59
Wow. Well, given your accounts, the Romans really fall on their face in this category.

Dr G 51:05
I think I would like to give them negative. I can’t, so I’m gonna go with zero, because they hand diplomacy come to their doorstep and they said, No, thank you. We’d rather try to wipe you all out. And

Dr Rad 51:20
I also think the kidnapping is also kind of undiplomatic. Yes,

Dr G 51:24
that is undiplomatic, isn’t it? And I don’t think that sending envoys to Delphi necessarily counts as diplomacy. No,

Dr Rad 51:32
no, that’s just for their own ends,

Dr G 51:36
indeed. So a solid zero there. Good job. Rome. Third category is expansion.

Dr Rad 51:43
No, again, it’s just faffing about at this age.

Dr G 51:48
Yes, there’s no territory gained nor lost. It would seem, trenches were dug, channels were made. Engineering happened.

Dr Rad 51:57
Says you, but yeah, oh, my account very specifically says nothing happens yet

Dr G 52:04
I see All right, so expansion is a zero, yeah, the fourth category is weirdos. No,

Dr Rad 52:11
oh, my god,

Dr G 52:13
Ro really falling on it.

Dr Rad 52:17
I know. I mean, there’s some chat that’s bad,

Dr G 52:20
is it weird to us to abduct somebody in broad daylight after you’ve led them away from a wall?

Dr Rad 52:26
Well, this is the thing. I think the Romans would like it, but I think they would think that’s pretty manly, yeah, but the guy’s nameless. I feel like they’re not really taking him very seriously. If they don’t at least bother to give us his name. Perhaps you are right. Yeah, I feel like if they really thought, oh my god, this is so cool, they would tell us at least what his name was, and also how weird was It was, yeah, exactly. It doesn’t come across that way. It’s very set up, like it’s very sketchy in Livy S account, the way that he’s like, Oh, hi, old man, you don’t happen to have any weapons on you. Good, good. Let’s just wander over here. Nothing suspicious, nothing to worry about. Look at

Dr G 53:09
it. Look at that bird.

Dr Rad 53:11
Yeah, and he’s like, Well, it’s kind of my thing. Thanks. Thanks for noticing Roman enemy.

Dr G 53:19
Okay, so is zero and weird, I

Dr Rad 53:20
think it has to be, yeah, okay.

Dr G 53:23
And the last category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 53:28
Oh, I don’t know how to feel about this one, because we don’t really get much from the citizens. It can’t be good if they’re flooding and they have no plebeians in office, so that’s bad, even though they apparently think it’s good. Yeah, and the war is dragging on. I mean, it doesn’t sound

Dr G 53:50
great, yeah. And who’s digging those, those channels? Well,

Dr Rad 53:54
exactly. I don’t believe that patricians are doing it.

Dr G 53:58
I don’t think so. I’d be very surprised. I would be too Oh

Dr Rad 54:03
no. Dr, G, that means Rome has managed to scrounge together two gold

Dr G 54:11
Oh no.

Dr Rad 54:12
I mean, you think it would be good news actually, because they’ve got this prophecy that’s kind of in their favor, but it’s just not in their favor yet. I

Dr G 54:21
see, yeah, well, it’s tough times out there. Oh, that is rough. Well, I wish that your lakes rise only as much as you desire them to, and that there are no prophecies attached to them. In any case, actually,

Dr Rad 54:35
ironically, I am currently living in an apartment that floods whenever we get the tiniest bit of rain, and we are actually about to have it dug up and relayed so that basically, rain is better. I’m living this year, right? My life is you

Dr G 54:52
don’t need to time travel. You’re there. I

Dr Rad 54:54
am, and like the Romans, whenever it rains, I’m surprised. Said, I’m like, Oh, the levels are rising. Why? Why did the God take me? So

Dr G 55:06
what you really need is a prophecy.

Dr Rad 55:09
I really do. It would be a lot cheaper than what I’m going for.

Dr G 55:13
Well, a pleasure as Oh, indeed. Oh,

Dr Rad 55:16
music. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon or buy us a coffee on kofi. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say survey to J9niners, Joe, Nigel, Scott and Kent some of our recent Patreon and Kofi supporters. Thank you so much for joining our partial band. However, if you’re feeling decidedly like a downtrodden pleb, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review and a quick reminder at the time that this episode is released, you will be able to pick yourself up a copy of our new book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire, at your local bookstore or on Amazon, Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome, you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We love it when we get to chat with some of our podcast friends, and this week we got to catch up with the hilarious Liv Albert from ‘Let’s talk about myths, baby!’ to talk about relationships between gods and mortals.

Please be warned, this episode does contain references to sexual assault.

Special Episode – Gods and Mortals with Liv Albert

The lovely Liv Albert herself!

When we get together with Liv, we pick a theme and compare the Roman and Greek myths on the topic. This episode, we decided to compare what each civilisation had to say about gods and mortals get involved with each other.

We found some interesting points of divergence as we delved into the tales of Rhea Silvia and Mars, Servius Tullius and Fortuna, and Aphrodite and Anchises.

Join us for this mini-myth conversation!

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

We sit down with Casie Vogel, VP Publisher at Ulysses Press to talk about the process of bringing an ancient Roman history book into the world and some of the cheeky details about the past that Casie learnt along the way.

To celebrate the publication of ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’ this special episode is even in video form!

Join us as we talk about books, publishing, and ancient Rome (of course)!

Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire is out now! We hope you love it as much as we enjoyed writing it. Have a chat to your local independent bookstore about getting a copy or two in or let your library know that you’d love them to keep a copy in their collection.

Libraries are a bastion of hope and a refuge for so many and surely a joy-filled exploration of Rome is just the ticket!

This is what the tome looks like it in all its glory!

US – You can read more about the book as well as how to order it at Ulysses Press.

UK – If you’re based in the UK, check out Bookshop.org

Australia – If you’re based in Australia, check out Abbey’s Bookstore, Booktopia, or check in with your local independent bookseller.

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The header image includes the highly detailed, but very idealised imagining of ancient Rome at its height by Thomas Cole. This painting dates to 1836 and is part of the series The Course of Empire. This painting in particular is entitled The Consummation. There are vibrant crowds of people on a bridge crossing the Tiber surrounded by white buildings with hints of gold everywhere.

We are thrilled to release the final cheeky preview from our new book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire. The final chapter from our ‘With a Rebel Yell’ bonus material is entitled ‘Last Man Standing: Masada’. This bonus episode is coming out on the very same day that our book officially hits the shelves. Huzzah!

The Final Cheeky Preview – Last Man Standing: Masada

We hope you enjoy listening to the fascinating tale of the final stand in the First Jewish Revolt (or Great Jewish Revolt). The literary and archaeological sources for this event pose just as many questions as they answer!

Want to hear about our other favourite rebels? Check out the chapters on Spartacus and Zenobia!

And of course, if you enjoy this chapter, you might like to grab yourself a copy of the book! It is available on Amazon, or ask at your local independent bookstore.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Our new book ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’ has nearly landed! Pre-order your copy via Ulysses Press!

It’s happening – the Romans enter the fourth century! In this episode, we compare and contrast the ancient source accounts for the year that was 399 BCE. Rome and Veii are still locked in a siege, with Roman forces outside the gates of the most preeminent Etruscan city to the south. Combined with the this situation is the suggestion that one (or more) plebeians have recently made it into the position of military tribune with consular power – no small feat given this is the most senior magistracy in Rome during the year that people are elected into it.

Episode 155 – A Feast for the Gods!

It’s fair to say that Rome’s been copping a rough time recently. From strange and unprecedented weather conditions to the ongoing challenges of trying to run a multi-year siege when you have a system of annual magistrates, Rome is in a tough spot. It’s moments like these that a consultation with the Sibylline Books is in order…

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sound.

The Apollo of Veii is thought to date to around 500 BCE so about a century prior to the action that takes place in this episode. This fabulous sculpture is held by the Museo Nazionale Etrusco.

Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:04
And I am Dr G, welcome.

Dr Rad 1:08
Dr G, I feel like listeners will have no idea how hard we have fought to get to our microphones today.

Dr G 1:15
Oh, dear listeners, we’ve been experiencing some audio issues.

Dr Rad 1:20
We still are experienced.

Dr G 1:23
Suffice it to say that we are podcasting in separate rooms of the same house

Dr Rad 1:28
and I am standing, which is very strange.

Dr G 1:31
Think of the vocal projection

Dr Rad 1:34
And I can’t hear myself. So this is going to be really interesting.

Dr G 1:37
So we have been tracing Rome’s history from the founding of the city and it this is a very exciting episode for us, because we officially tip into the fourth century BCE.

Dr Rad 1:54
That we do. And to do a quick recap of where we were in 400 BCE, the tipping point, if you will. The main thing that we were excited about was the fact that there was a plebeian elected to the supreme magistracies of Rome, the military tribune with consular power.

Dr G 2:15
Such a breakthrough. And I think, if I recall rightly, and maybe I don’t, there was more than one,

Dr Rad 2:20
No, you are 100% wrong on that.

Dr G 2:25
Well, there you go, folks, even historians don’t remember things properly. That’s why it’s always good to check your sources.

Dr Rad 2:30
Yes, but yes, we had one who was elected, and everyone was like, this isn’t too bad the world didn’t collapse on itself. And the other thing, I think to note, in terms of background, we’ve been talking about this for a few episodes, actually, but I feel it will be relevant to my narrative. Today, Rome is at war with Veii, an Etruscan city to the north.

Dr G 2:52
Yeah, this has been happening for a little while now, and we must be, you know, a good ways into what is going to be this 10 year siege.

Dr Rad 3:00
Yes, we’re getting ever closer. Dr G, to the end of the siege.

Dr G 3:04
Edging towards the end of the siege.

Dr Rad 3:06
Yeah. So that’s a recap. If you want a more detailed one, we actually just did a massive episode where we were kept the entire fifth century.

Dr G 3:13
Yeah, check it out.

Dr Rad 3:14
Yeah. But otherwise, I’m ready. Dr G, let’s go into 399 BCE.

Dr G 3:42
It’s 399 BCE.

Dr Rad 3:46
How’s your source material looking, Dr. G?

Dr G 3:48
Oh, I have source material.

Dr Rad 3:50
Really?!

Dr G 3:50
I’m so excited.

Dr Rad 3:52
Okay, well, you know what? Just in case it’s not as good as you think, I’m gonna let you do the magistracies, because I feel like that’s just become your thing.

Dr G 4:01
Now, that’s a little bit of an ouch from the old Livy lover over here.

Dr Rad 4:05
Nothing against you personally. It’s just Dionysius has been gone for a while now,

Dr G 4:10
I know, but we’ll get to that in a moment. Okay, so we start the year with military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 4:18
We do

Dr G 4:19
Super important. And there is six of them, and I hate to break it to you, I did just go back and do a quick relook at 400 and at least from my sources perspective, there was more than one plebeian as military tribune with consular power in 400 now we could be quibbling about names, but definitely this year, we seem to have a whole spate of plebeians in the role.

Dr Rad 4:46
Well, way to go and spoil my fun. Dr, G, I was going to surprise you with the fact that Livy tells me explicitly that there is only one patrician elected to be military tribune with consular power in this year.

Dr G 5:02
Oh yeah, the old Marcus Veturius Crassus Cicurinus.

Dr Rad 5:07
Yeah, that guy yeah.

Dr G 5:09
Or Cicurinus, that’s the one that guy, he’s gonna stand up. So this guy, this one, sole patrician this year, is surrounded by a whole bunch of really interesting, different folk who do not seem to have patrician names. So we’ve got, first of all, Gnaeus Genucius Augurinus. We have Lucius Atilius Priscus. Both of these guys, first time in the role. Not a surprise when you’re not a patrician.

Dr Rad 5:09
Yeah, I could have told you that

Dr G 5:16
Marcus Pomponius Rufus, doesn’t seem to be a patrician either.

Dr Rad 5:43
No

Dr G 5:44
Gnaeus or Gaius – there seems to be some dispute about the praenomen with this guy – Duilius Longus.

Dr Rad 5:52
I feel like I’ve heard that family name before.

Dr G 5:55
Duilius?

Dr Rad 5:56
Plebian though it may be.

Dr G 5:58
Yeah, I think it has come up. It rolls off the tongue nicely, which means I must have pronounced it before.

Dr Rad 6:03
Exactly.

Dr G 6:04
And finally, we have Valero Publius Philo.

Dr Rad 6:08
Okay.

Dr G 6:09
So all of these guys, all five of these non patrician military tribunes, first time in the role, fresh cabs off the rank. I think we’re in that point where, in terms of the siege of Veiii, people are looking for new strategies and innovation.

Dr Rad 6:23
Look possibly. But I find it kind of amusing that, according to Livy, at least, it has taken several decades to get to the point where people finally felt comfortable enough to elect a plebeian to be military tribune with consular power. And now that they’ve had one year with one guy, they’re like, we’re all in. Let’s make it plebeian all the time. Turns out they’re great, yeah, exactly. I find that quite hilarious.

Dr G 6:50
They just had to try it.

Dr Rad 6:52
Yeah, exactly. Now they’re like, oh my god.

Dr G 6:54
It’s really opened a door for them. Now they’re getting experimental.

Dr Rad 6:57
Exactly, yeah, all right. So apart from the fact that we have so many plebeians in office, the first thing that Livy tells me about 399 is that there had been a terrible winter the year before, which, I think I did mention, and now in 399 it’s an incredibly hot summer.

Dr G 7:16
Ooh,

Unknown Speaker 7:16
Yes..

Dr G 7:17
Oh, a hot Roman summer.

Dr Rad 7:18
That’s right. I actually quite like the translation, so I’m going to read it out to you. It is noxious and baleful to all living creatures.

Dr G 7:25
Oh, god.

Dr Rad 7:27
Doesn’t sound great.

Dr G 7:28
Oh, look. I mean, I was in Rome last year and it was pretty hot. It was a six week heat wave. So maybe they had one of those.

Dr Rad 7:36
I feel like they did so naturally, if you have a terrible winter and then a really awful summer, it gets you wondering. Dr, G, have I offended the gods?

Dr G 7:49
Is climate change on the horizon?

Dr Rad 7:51
Exactly. What have we been doing? You know, I mean, Rome does become a industrial powerhouse, but I feel like we’re getting a bit ahead of ourselves with that one. It’s probably more likely that they’ve offended the gods.

Dr G 8:00
Yeah, our chances are.

Dr Rad 8:02
Yeah. So as a result, they’re looking around. They’re going, what did we do? I can’t figure it out. And so they turn to their old trusty fail safe, the Sibylline Books.

Dr G 8:16
Yeah, okay, so the Sibylline Books, just to sort of recap a little bit on that we think that they turned up in Rome in the time of the kings and were sadly mostly destroyed through hubris. And the few books that are remaining are now safely guarded and taken care of and consulted in times of trouble. Now you could also go and see the Sibylline oracle directly. But there’s also the books.

Dr Rad 8:44
Exactly they decide to go for the books, easier option.

Dr G 8:48
Yeah, you never know if she’s gonna be available.

Dr Rad 8:50
Exactly. Now, we have actually mentioned this before. It seems like there are some guys who are kind of in charge of the books, or stuff relating to the books called the duumvirs. They’ve come up before, I believe. Now, those of you who studied places like Pompeii will know that a duumvir is the head magistracies in like, a smaller town like Pompeii, but in this case, we’re not really talking about that exactly. ‘Duumvir’ just literally means like the two men.

Dr G 9:22
Yeah, the two men who are looking after those books.

Dr Rad 9:25
Exactly. So they decide that what they need to do is hold a new religious ceremony. Now I’m building up to this because I’m not entirely confident that my tongue is going to get around it the lectisternium.

Dr G 9:43
Oh, yes. Oh, look, you and I, our sources are in sync in some respects.

Dr Rad 9:47
Okay, so apparently it’s the first one that was ever held in Rome, and it goes for eight days, and there are sacrifices to Apollo, Latona, Diana, Hercules, Mercury and Neptune. Now, listeners might be wondering, well, what is involved in this? Exactly? Apparently, the name comes from the idea that there are couches involved and food spread out for the gods, because, essentially, the Romans put out some couches, put down some images of the gods on those couches, and spread out a nice little banquet for them.

Dr G 10:30
A delicious divine feast.

Dr Rad 10:32
Exactly, exactly they are invited to partake in this sacrificial feast. Basically, we think it comes from Greek origins. The Romans being influenced by the Greeks because they have something kind of similar. I think the Greek versions are called the theoxenia, which is again basically a banquet for the gods, with their images spread out on couches and stuff.

Dr G 11:03
It’s a delightful image. And I wonder if this might be a good time to take you a little bit through what I have of Dionysus of Halicarnassus, because framing up the context for this whole situation, I think is really important.

Dr Rad 11:19
Yeah. No, please tell me.

Dr G 11:21
So Dionysus of Halicarnassus does not agree with Livy.

Dr Rad 11:24
Oh okay, fine,

Dr G 11:25
Sadly

Dr Rad 11:27
But you just said we were in sync.

Dr G 11:28
Well, in the sense that we’ve got severe weather on the cards

Dr Rad 11:31
Ah okay

Dr G 11:32
but we have very different types of severe weather being put forward.

Dr Rad 11:37
Let me guess it was a great winter and then an even better summer.

Dr G 11:42
It was a very severe snowstorm.

Dr Rad 11:46
Okay

Dr G 11:47
And the snow apparently was higher than seven Roman feet. So we’re talking like an epic snowfall.

Dr Rad 11:57
Yeah, you’d be trapped in your house with that

Dr G 11:59
Oh, not only that, your house would collapse.

Dr Rad 12:02
That’s even worse than I imagine.

Dr G 12:03
It’s disastrous. So a Roman foot is about 29 centimeters, or about, I think, what does that make it maybe, maybe a foot, a modern foot, a Roman foot and a modern foot might be similar in length, and so we’re looking at a depth of over two metres worth of snow, or about six foot, nine and a half inches of snow, at least. And think about Rome and its situation on some small hills, but mostly surrounded by plains. This is a very unlikely geographic location for such a high level of snowfall and it is reported to be completely unprecedented, either in source material before or records afterwards, at least down to the time of Dionysus of Halicarnassus. So they talk about this as like an exceptionally terrible snow event. And the consequence of this are massive, because with this much snow, you basically have issues with your herds. Cattle die from frostbite and things like this. The fruit trees, which might be starting to put on new growth, basically wither up and don’t produce anything for years to come. They have to recover from that. People think those fruit trees are dead.

Dr Rad 13:26
My god.

Dr G 13:28
And when the snow melts, it’s so heavy that it actually breaks structures. So there’s this massive issue. And to compensate for this, the idea of putting forward a lectisternium under these conditions, so some sort of banquet with sacrifices to the gods, when actually the township of Rome itself must be on the brink of famine and under pretty severedisaster circumstances already, the idea that they’re giving what little they have left to the gods in order to try and rectify this situation, I think, speaks remarkably to how strongly the Romans feel about their relationship with the gods and how they have to manage that, and how shocking this whole moment must have been for them to be like, Oh, we really need to do something different in terms of our ritual practice in order to compensate for whatever is going on here, because this was outstandingly terrible.

Dr Rad 14:30
Wow, that’s so sad. I didn’t think about the fact that they’re offering food to the gods, and they probably have almost none.

Dr G 14:35
Yeah, so sad.

Dr Rad 14:37
I know. Well, apparently when we see the lectisternium showing up in early Rome, it is often in connection to things like pestilence. So and we’ve talked before about how these environmental issues can obviously lead to wider issues with food supply and general health. They’re obviously trying to tickle. All the boxes, because they are including most of the major gods I could think about.

Dr G 15:05
So yeah, so those connections of these gods seem really important as well. So Apollo has a connection with healing, divination, music

Dr Rad 15:14
Exactly

Dr G 15:15
Also has an Etruscan legacy as well. So he was well known throughout the region, not just from a Greek perspective. Latona is the goddess of the night, and so she is often considered to be synchronous with Leto

Dr Rad 15:33
Okay

Dr G 15:33
Also known in the Etruscan and obviously, Diana and Apollo have a bit of a thing.

Dr Rad 15:42
singing!

Dr G 15:44
Exactly. So this idea that there is a whole range of these gods involved, including Mercury, bringer of culture, relationships with the shepherds, maybe try to get something right with the herds here.

Dr Rad 15:58
And also maybe trade, you know, getting supplies, resources, making sure they’re not, you know, totally cut off.

Dr G 16:05
Yeah. And this connection with trade might also feed into the connection with Hercules, who’s also associated with cattle breeding and trading and things like that, true. And then we also have Neptune. Now, why Neptune is involved might just be because of the melting snow, because otherwise, I’m not sure why he’s there.

Dr Rad 16:24
Well, again, if we go back to trade, how do you trade? By ship.

Dr G 16:29
Oh, yeah, it’s the fastest way to travel.

Dr Rad 16:31
Exactly. So it could be that, but who really knows? So don’t spell that out for us, unfortunately.

Dr G 16:36
That’s true. Now, what is interesting in Dionysius’ account, because we’ve only got a fragment.

Dr Rad 16:43
Better than nothing!

Dr G 16:44
Better than – ooo I’ve got something to talk about, Dr Rad. He mentions a source on this called, referring to a guy called Piso, who is an ex censor who wrote a series called the ‘Annales’, which is, you know, off the face of it doesn’t sound particularly unique. Writing ‘Annales’ is the sort of thing that anybody who’s anybody likes to do. Both Livy and Dionysius or Halicarnassus are essentially writing annales – a year by year account of things.

Dr Rad 17:15
And it’s essentially what you and I are doing. Dr, G.

Dr G 17:17
Oh yeah, we’re not unique either. Oh no!

Dr Rad 17:20
No, but you know, we’re anybody who’s anybody, that’s a good thing.

Dr G 17:24
Oh, that’s true. We’re an illustrious category.

Dr Rad 17:26
Exactly.

Dr G 17:26
Now, this is a reference to somebody who we do know, a guy called Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi. Now he was a Roman senator and a historian in the second century BCE, tribune of the plebs in 149, consul in 133 and then censor in 120. Now,the reason why it’s worth mentioning those dates is because he’s very much tied up in the whole situation with the Gracchi later on.

Dr Rad 17:59
Oh, okay.

Dr G 18:00
So it’s interesting that we’re starting to see callbacks to writers that are very much invested in things to do with the agrarian crisis that then is also placed back in time into this like fourth and fifth century period as well.

Dr Rad 18:19
Absolutely, now Livy does go a little bit crazy, Dr G. Apparently, because Piso, the original source, might have added on a bit of extra detail. And this, apparently, is something that Dionysius, your friend, tells us,

Dr G 18:35
Oh, yeah. Oh. Dionysius has some, has some beautiful detail from Piso, yes.

Dr Rad 18:41
And so he says how it wasn’t just the gods having a fun old time, it was everybody in Rome, because they were just opening the doors. They were throwing open their homes and saying, Come on in. Join my party. Doesn’t matter if I know you. Doesn’t matter if I don’t. And it was time to make up with people you might have been fighting with, and you weren’t allowed to start any new fights. You weren’t allowed to start any lawsuits. Prisoners were released forever, it seems because the gods seem to be smiling down upon them.

Dr G 19:12
Hmm, are you saying that Livy doesn’t believe this?

Dr Rad 19:15
I think Livy does believe this. I think it’s Dionysius who mentions that this was something that Piso talked about.

Dr G 19:25
Yeah, he does, but he doesn’t dismiss it. He just sort of recounts it.

Dr Rad 19:28
It’s the academic that’re dismissive. I think they’re looking at all the other lectusternium and saying, This doesn’t happen. Oh, come on, guys, there’s no party vibe. There’s no Block Party.

Dr G 19:38
Let Piso have his moment in the sun,

Dr Rad 19:40
We’re shutting it right down.

Dr G 19:42
He wants to call back to some beautiful, glorious golden era of Rome, the proper Republic, where things were done, right.

Dr Rad 19:51
Well, look, I think that Livy went even further than Piso. Yeah, I think that’s what the academics are assuming that Piso added a little bit of extra detail. On and Livy s like, you know what? I’ll take your extra detail and add some.

Dr G 20:04
Okay, well, that’s very interesting, because it does seem like it’s a time of severe crisis. And perhaps a proportionate reaction to crisis is to really lean into – in a sort of nihilistic, fatalistic kind of way – lean into life itself and celebrate the fact that you’ve survived. So to me, this level of excess with like freeing of slaves and everybody’s partying at everybody’s house doesn’t necessarily sound unlikely given the severity of the circumstances. So if we buy into – it’s beena really severe natural disaster, and it sounds like we’ve had a couple of those in recent years as well – that on the back of some other weather conditions, and potentially on the back of a really hot summer where they’ve now got this really severe winter that people are kind of open to embracing the fact that they’ve gotten through this, and maybe that’s led to some hedonistic behavior.

Dr Rad 21:06
Look, I’m not entirely discounting the partying. I think it’s specifically the freeing of prisoners.

Dr G 21:12
Yeah, nobody would ever do that.

Dr Rad 21:14
Yeah, I’m not really sure about that. Yeah, the idea that it was also like a gigantic bloc party. It might be a time when people are, you know, putting aside their grudges and that kind of thing. But whether it was, you know, like Rome is just having, you know, one big old shindig, it’s like, well, maybe not. Now, Dr G, if that’s all we have to say about this banquet for the gods, I’ve got something else for you that’s heating up just like this horrible, horrible summer.

Dr G 21:42
Oh, what is it?

Dr Rad 21:44
It’s the war with Veii.

Dr G 21:46
Oh, no. Is it still happening?

Dr Rad 21:48
It’s definitely still happening.

Dr G 21:50
Oh, that siege. When’s it ever going to end?

Dr Rad 21:52
I know the Romans are tinkering around with their siege equipment. You know, I don’t really know anything about construction, so I’m going to imagine they’re tightening something, tightening some lug nuts. No idea what that is.

Dr G 22:05
You know, making – covering the rocks that they’re about to throw with a little bit of animal faeces to make them less pleasant when they hit the target.

Dr Rad 22:12
Exactly, writing insulting messages on the rocks.

Dr G 22:15
Exactly.

Dr Rad 22:16
Yes, when, all of a sudden, they’re attacked from different sides by the people that have joined Veii: the Capenantes and the Faliscans, as well as Veii.

Dr G 22:27
Wow. Okay, yeah, so they does have some allies. These are the people, if I recall rightly, that are slightly further north, who realize if Veii falls, the domino effect that they’re worried about.

Dr Rad 22:38
They have twigged, yes, that’s right, that’s exactly what’s happening now. This has happened before, because when the first realized that we know that the Romans got caught in a very unpleasant sandwich between their enemies, and it didn’t go well for them, however, that was, of course, entirely down to their poor leadership,

Dr G 22:54
I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, the I’m not coming to help you unless you ask. And it’s like, well, I’m not asking

Dr Rad 23:02
This time, they learnt from history. An example of someone learning from history. Can you believe it?

Dr G 23:08
It’s possible, my friends, it’s possible.

Dr Rad 23:11
So as a result, when the Romans found themselves, once again, penned in, help was immediately sent from the main camp, and the backups were also able to assault the Capenantes from behind bit of their own medicine. The Faliscans were naturally terrified by this sudden attack, and the Romans decided to really push this advantage home. And with a sally, they finally sent them running away, and the Romans didn’t let up there. They continued to follow them as they ran screaming in the other direction, slaughtering them, left, right and center.

Dr G 23:47
Ahhh, I ahh suppose it’s war. I mean, that’s unpleasant, though.

Dr Rad 23:51
I think we’re on the Roman side here, so I think we’re supposed to be happy about that.

Dr G 23:54
Yay.

Dr Rad 23:57
Then some Romans also decide, why not raid some territory of the Capenantes.

Dr G 24:03
Well, as you do naturally, since you’re there.

Dr Rad 24:05
Exactly. And whilst they were doing that, they happened to run into the army. He was chasing us for the Faliscans, and so they join in killing the surviving Faliscans.

Dr G 24:13
Oh, okay.

Dr Rad 24:15
Yeah, the people from Veii take a look around at this situation and say, You know what? We might just go back into the city.

Dr G 24:22
You know what? This siege is, fine. I’m gonna live inside the walls.

Dr Rad 24:25
Thanks for the help, guys. But you know what? I’m a bit tired. I think I might just go back behind the walls.

Dr G 24:30
I’m gonna retire to my chambers and think about my future with the Roman camp outside.

Dr Rad 24:35
Exactly. Unfortunately, of course, they have – they naturally – whilst they were fighting, the Romans – had the gates to the city closed so that the Romans couldn’t just run into the city.

Dr G 24:44
That’s very clever.

Dr Rad 24:45
Yeah. Unfortunately, what this means is the people who decide to retreat are trapped.

Dr G 24:50
Oh no.

Dr Rad 24:51
I don’t say that again because I just hit the microphone with my nose. They are trapped.

Dr G 24:55
Oh no.

Dr Rad 24:57
And unfortunately, many of them are also killed before they managed to get inside.

Dr G 25:02
Oh, okay, this sounds like it’s a pretty stellar win for the Roman forces. It doesn’t sound like they’ve broken the siege at all, but they’ve really put a dent in morale and confidence.

Dr Rad 25:13
It’s that slow drip of psychological terror.

Dr G 25:17
With neighbors like these, who needs enemies.

Dr Rad 25:19
Exactly, and the reasons why the people of a were slow to let the soldiers in is, of course, they didn’t want the Romans to penetrate their city, so they were very slow about opening the gates.

Dr G 25:30
Wow, I can only imagine the sort of horrified conversations that would have happened inside the walls, because people are basically locking out their own relations and then watching them get slaughtered.

Dr Rad 25:42
Yeah, they’re saying really sorry, guys. We know that you’re tired, we know that you want a nap, but we just can’t risk it. Now, that’s basically all I get about the war with Veii for 399 but if we switch our attention back to the city itself, it’s time for some more elections, Dr. G.

Dr G 25:58
Ooh, elections. Oh, that’s exciting.

Dr Rad 26:00
Getting ready for next year now, naturally, the patricians are not at all happy at this situation where there are more plebeians in power than patricians. Outrageous.

Dr G 26:11
Not only that, it sounds like the plebeians as military tribunes with consular power, have had some real military breakthroughs, like they have just run down the enemy in a couple of different directions. And pen some of the Venetians, or the Veii- and Veiantes, I should say – Venetians will make us confused about Venezia. We shouldn’t do that.

Dr Rad 26:30
And blinds

Dr G 26:31
Yeah, the people of Veii trapped on the outside of their own walls. So it seems like they’re doing okay without the patrician leadership in the top position.

Dr Rad 26:42
But notice that there are no named commanders in any of that.

Dr G 26:47
Well, is that, because the patricians who write down history would never deign to give them any credit?

Dr Rad 26:55
I’m entirely in agreement with you. Now, the reason why they have a problem, of course, is that they thought this whole situation was meant to be about sharing power, because sharing is caring. But the plebeians are being so greedy, taking over all the offices, it’s like they’re running the state.

Dr G 27:14
Yeah, you wouldn’t want to look at the previous year and the way that they’ve all been stacked with patricians to then be like, You know what? What is fair?

Dr Rad 27:23
Fair is when the patricians get their way. I thought that was very clear. So the patricians decide, All right, guys, we can’t be sleeping on this one. We’ve got to really put our best fancily shoed foot forward. And they therefore select the absolute best candidates that they have on offer, and the plebeians could not resist. They were just so sexy and so arrogant.

Dr G 27:55
Have you seen the way he lifts his toga above his knee? (growls)

Dr Rad 28:01
And they started campaigning for the patricians as though it was actually a plebeian candidate, because they’re idiots. Of course, teamwork equals dreamwork, guys.

Dr G 28:13
I am unhappy about this turn of events.

Dr Rad 28:15
I know plebeians are fools. Now, naturally, there’s probably also something going on here with the whole religious angle, a terrible winter pestilence, which was just mentioned summer. The gods are upset. Plague is clearly coming after all of this stuff, the Sibylline books indicated as much, and we can link it all back to the fact that they were plebeians in office.

Dr G 28:46
Oh, okay. Oh, that’s the explanation.

Dr Rad 28:48
That’s the explanation. I mean, everything’s been completely fine. There has never been a plague or a pestilence while patricians were in charge.

Dr G 28:55
Yeah, I mean, who would be surprised at this turn of events? Soon as you put plebeians in power, what do you got? Disaster. That’s what you got.

Dr Rad 29:04
That’s exactly it.

Dr G 29:05
Now the gods are unhappy.

Dr Rad 29:06
Yeah, well, that’s what the patricians have been saying all this time, haven’t they, Dr. G? They were like –

Dr G 29:11
It’s true. I mean, at least they’re consistent.

Dr Rad 29:12
Yeah. That’s why they didn’t want them to have the consulship, like, we can’t. It’s too risky, sacred. And now look what’s happened. We gave you something else, and even then you screwed it up. For everybody.

Dr G 29:25
The gods are so disappointed in us that we’re just going to have to go back to having some patricians in power.

Dr Rad 29:30
That’s pretty much it. So the plebeians are basically fainting in the streets. They’re going, oh my god, they’re blood. It’s just so blue! I can’t concentrate. And they were also really scared that something much worse was coming their way, because the gods were clearly ticked off with them, and so all patricians were elected for the following year. And that is all I have from Livy today.

Dr G 29:52
Oh interesting, I know well, so there is some nice synergy, I think, between Livy’s account and what Dionysius of Halicarnassus are bringing to the table. Admittedly, we’ve only got a fragment of Dionysius, and the idea of there being like the terrible summer versus the terrible snowstorm, seems like you know, minor details, but maybe they had both that would explain some of the tragedy here.

Dr Rad 30:17
I think we can all agree we’re not going to time travel back to 399.

Dr G 30:22
Oh, yeah, no, I don’t think I want to experience that weather system. Whatever was going on. There was a bit of a problem.

Dr Rad 30:29
Cause tonight we’re gonna party like it’s 399!

Dr G 30:34
I mean, I’m happy to follow Piso on this. I mean, like, let people have some fun for a change. Like, why? Why would that have to be wrong. I mean, come on. Admittedly, I haven’t delved into the scholarship on this, but I’m sure people have very good reasons why they they want Rome to be a more grumpy place than it currently is.

Dr Rad 30:50
I don’t think they’re denying the celebration or anything. I think they’re just questioning whether it was quite as extreme as Livy points out.

Dr G 30:57
Would you really free people? Would you really just let anybody into your house?

Dr Rad 31:03
It kind of seems like a recipe for disaster, that when things are going badly, you’re like, I know, let’s let the criminals loose through the street.

Dr G 31:11
Well, it’s not even that they’re criminals necessarily, at least in the account that we get from Dionysius. It’s slaves being manumitted.

Dr Rad 31:21
Really? I was wondering why you said slaves earlier. Okay, interesting.

Dr G 31:25
It’s not necessarily criminals at all, unless you consider that debt bondage could be one of the ways that you end up enslaved, which is possible and is considered a crime, but is a crime of circumstance, not a crime that you really go out of your way to commit.

Dr Rad 31:40
Talk about criminalizing the poor, Dr G.

Dr G 31:42
Yup exactly. We see it all in Rome. Whatever you thought about today, we’ve seen it in Rome. So we’ve got this lectisternium, and that is apparently the direct response to the Sibylline Oracle, suggesting, like, this is the course of action to take correct. So that’s the Greek connection that you’re talking about as well. So this idea that they’re borrowing from Greek ritual rites in order to see if that will make a difference. In this case, the idea that the couches of the gods are sacred is really important. So one of the things that we understand about the way the Romans were practicing religion in this period is that if you had a temple, and there would have been very few at this point in time, but the structures that you built to house statues of the gods weren’t the only part of the building that was very important. The couch itself, where the statue would sit, was also considered to be quite sacred. So this is a sacred banquet of sorts, because the couches involved have been consecrated in the same way that the buildings have been consecrated. So I think that’s an interesting detail that comes out through this as well. I think the choice of the gods is really interesting. I’m not sure what to make of it, but there’s some figures here that we haven’t really encountered very much before, but

Dr Rad 33:01
I think it’s all guesswork, to be honest. I mean, we know the names and people have suggested, well, maybe it’s because of this, maybe it’s because of that, but we don’t have anyone saying it’s because of this.

Dr G 33:10
Yeah, well, exactly, but it does give us a sense that the divine landscape that the Romans are operating in is broader than what we’ve previously really encountered in our written source material. Like we do know that there is a whole series of indigent Latin gods and sort of Italic gods, and they sometimes start to morph into these Greek figures that then become Roman figures. And this is already well happening by the time that we get to 399, so things like Apollo and Diana, Hercules, Mercury Neptune, these are all very familiar from a different context, cultural context. And maybe that’s part of the connection here as well, is that they’re taking from Greek rights, but they’re also prioritizing gods of their own that have a syncretism and overlap with Greek gods as well.

Dr Rad 34:07
All right? Dr G, well, with that being said, I think it’s time for the Partial Pick That’s right, listeners, this is the part of the episode where we get to rate Rome’s performance. How do we do it, Dr G?

Dr G 34:22
Well, there is a potential for Rome to win 50 golden eagles. So first of all, we have the five categories. They can score up to 10 in each category, and we will see how they go.

Dr Rad 34:37
All right, what’s our first category, Dr G?

Dr G 34:39
Military clout.

Dr Rad 34:40
Okay, I think we have something to work with here.

Dr G 34:43
Do we?

Dr Rad 34:45
excuse me? They escaped from a very dangerous enemy embrace.

Dr G 34:52
It sounds like they chased down people and murdered them

Dr Rad 34:56
After being attacked themselves.

Dr G 34:59
Fine. I think in this sort of situation, obviously, this siege has been going on for a while. This is by no means illegitimate war tactics. As far as the Romans are concerned, or their neighbors, if the situation had been reversed, we could almost guarantee that their neighbors would have behaved in the same way. I would say that this is probably a five.

Dr Rad 35:20
Yeah, I think it’s a five. It could have been bad. I mean, they could have been completely pinned in and not able to break out. And they managed to do it. And not only that, they managed to scare the little pence of those guys.

Dr G 35:32
Yeah, this does set things up for a poor morale outlook for they and their allies heading into the next campaign season.

Dr Rad 35:40
This is true. All right, what’s our next category, Dr G?

Dr G 35:43
Our second category is Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 35:46
Hmm, don’t really think so.

Dr G 35:48
I’m gonna say zero,

Dr Rad 35:50
Yeah, nothing’s happening on the outside and nothing’s happening on the inside.

Dr G 35:55
Any hints of diplomatic activity here,

Dr Rad 35:58
Although, again, I would say not their fault. Do did they try? Well, what are you supposed to do when you’re being attacked? Make them a mixtape.

Dr G 36:08
I mean, you could. These are some songs that remind me of you.

Dr Rad 36:13
All right, let’s move on. What’s our next category?

Dr G 36:15
Expansion.

Dr Rad 36:16
No.

Dr G 36:18
They’re trying, but no, yeah, they’re not really gaining territory. They’re doing some raiding, but it doesn’t sound like they’ve secured anything. So that’s a zero, yeah. That leads us into Virtus.

Dr Rad 36:29
Unfortunately, even though they apparently did so well in the battle, we don’t really have any moments that are singled out.

Dr G 36:37
Well, yeah, and because we don’t have individual names attached to some of these military feats, we don’t get a chance to really see virtus embodied. And the thing with virtus is it is about the person and the way that they’re embodying manliness from a Roman perspective. So if you don’t have a name attached to a commander or somebody in the field, doing the thing, then we can’t be sure about the virtus involved.

Dr Rad 37:05
Yeah, exactly. And that leads us to our final category, Dr G

Dr G 37:09
The Citizen Score. Was this a good time to be a Roman citizen?

Dr Rad 37:13
I’m so torn for all the reasons we’ve discussed, there’s a party, but it’s a party because things are really bad.

Dr G 37:19
It’s a party for those who survived and party, and everyone’s invited. But, you know, the cattle or died, that’s not great. It seems like the pestilence must be on the way.

Dr Rad 37:30
But it’s 399, whoo whoo

Dr G 37:34
And I suppose

Dr Rad 37:35
Plebeians in power.

Dr G 37:36
Oh yeah, that that is, that might be the saving grace here.

Dr Rad 37:39
Failing miserably.

Dr G 37:41
I don’t think they’re failing miserably. Didn’t they have huge military success.

Dr Rad 37:45
I think I just told you that all of this disaster is because of them, so…

Dr G 37:49
Oh, I see, taking the patricians’ side are we?

Dr Rad 37:53
Well, is there any other way to look at things?

Dr G 37:58
Okay, so the citizen score? Yeah, I’m focusing. I’m focusing. Is there anything good here for citizens? And I think the fact that we’ve got five of the six military tribunes with consular power coming from the plebeians, and they perform well in the battlefield despite what other propaganda might say about the failures of this year, and the need for patrician leadership only.

Dr Rad 38:23
It’s not propaganda when it’s the truth.

Dr G 38:26
I think we can say maybe about a three or a four for citizen score, just because they’ve got some representation in there, and the representation seems to go well,

Dr Rad 38:34
That’s true.

Dr G 38:34
Otherwise, it’s not a great time, because obviously these natural disasters seem to be quite severe and are leading to flow on consequences.

Dr Rad 38:42
But the partying and the slaves and the prisoners,

Dr G 38:45
Yeah, I mean, but you know, it’s like when you go to a wake at a funeral and it’s like, sure

Dr Rad 38:51
Ouch! I don’t know how the gods would feel about you characterizing their banquet in this way?

Dr G 38:56
I’m just saying there are times. There are times when people come together, and maybe it gets rowdy, depending on the wake. It really depends. But it’s, it’s a celebration through pain. And I think the same sort of situation is going on here,

Dr Rad 39:13
Ancient Rome, smiling through the pain. 399 BCE.

Dr G 39:18
Put that on the headstone.

Dr Rad 39:19
Oh yeah, that’s gonna be our next T-shirt, alright because not at all in niche to have it pinned down to one yeareveryone else has forgotten All right, so I agree with you. I would say I think probably a four.

Dr G 39:30
Okay.

Dr Rad 39:31
Okay, which means, Dr G, we have ended up with a grand total of nine Golden Eagles for Rome.

Dr G 39:37
Nine? Didn’t even crack double figures.

Dr Rad 39:41
Were you really expecting more when there were plebeians in the majority for the first time?

Dr G 39:47
No comment, really? Yeah. I feel like, you know, the patricians can stick it up their arse.

Dr Rad 39:51
Look. I kind of think of this like in Australia, the first time we had a female prime minister, it didn’t go so great. And…

Dr G 40:00
Well mostly because everybody decided that they really needed to be misogynistic all of a sudden.

Dr Rad 40:04
I’m not denying that, but I’m just saying, you know, when you’re the first I think sometimes things go badly.

Dr G 40:11
Wow, you got a feel for the guy from 400 then.

Dr Rad 40:13
Hey, the good news is we’re back to having all patricians all the time next year. Hey, hey, hey!

Dr G 40:19
yeah, yeah yay. Well, I look forward to seeing how poorly they do in power.

Dr Rad 40:29
Me too, secretly, me too. Don’t tell them I said that.

Dr G 40:38
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com. We offer a huge thank you to you, if you’re one of our illustrious Patreon supporters. If you enjoy the show, we’d love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day. We’re on Ko-Fi for one or four ongoing donations or Patreon. Of course, our latest book, ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’, is published through Ulysses Press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don’t want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favorite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome’s glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with’Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Welcome to another cheeky preview from our new book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire.

This chapter is a bit of a contrast to our first one on Spartacus. We turn from a rebel from the lowest ranks of society to one from the elite. We are journeying from the Roman Republic to the mid-Empire. Aaaaand we are travelling from Italy to the provinces.

For our next instalment, we tell you the tale of Queen Zenobia of Palmyra. Cleopatra reborn!

With a Rebel Yell – Zenobia’s Winning Strategy

Queen Zenobia addressing her soldiers by Giovanni Battista Tiepolo, courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

We hope that you enjoy it and would love to hear your thoughts.

If you haven’t pre-ordered a copy yet and you like the sound of it,  the details for the book can be found on our website.

Music by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The fifth century BCE in Rome is the century that saw the idea of the republic flourish and falter only to flourish again. The plebeians rose up to fight for their rights and to enjoy the fruits of their hard work on the battlefield. The patricians held on to their prestige and power with a vice-like grip and Rome began to expand their influence in the local region. At least that’s what our ancient sources believed!

Let’s review the 5th century BCE together. We’ll focus on the big themes, the ideas that were central to the century, and what was going on in the Struggle of the Orders. 

Episode 154 – The Fifth Century BCE in Review

It seems only fair to start with the year 509 BCE (so technically the end of the 6th century!) because that’s the year that the Romans finally booted out the kings and decided there had to be a better way to run the place. If you’re keen to go through the 5th century in ALL THE DETAIL, you’ll need to go back to our Episode 45 – The Last Gasp of the Regal Period that we recorded all the way back in 2015! Our detailed coverage of the 5th century BCE runs from Episode 45 all the way through to Episode 153 – The Plebeians Push Into Power. That’s 108 episodes on the 5th century BCE!

We’ll be taking a bird’s eye look at the century that was with a focus on some key themes and developments. Tune in for a consideration of:

So after a turbulent first 100 years of the Roman Republic, what can we say for sure?

What will the 4th century BCE bring for the development of Rome? Stay tuned to find out!  

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds.

Léon Bénouville (1844) Cincinnatus.
The senators happen upon Cincinnatus while is he is busy farming sans shirt.

Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:55
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians I am, Dr G, and I’m joined by my long-going and fabulous co host:

Dr Rad 1:07
Dr Rad. How you doing, Dr G?

Dr G 1:10
I’m doing fabulously well. It’s always a good day when I get to sit down with you.

Dr Rad 1:14
I know, now look, you and I, we usually sit here and we hash out the narrative that is the history of Rome from the founding of the city. We look at different sources, we compare accounts. And to be honest, I think one thing that we are not particularly good on is like anniversaries and special episodes that sort of thing. We never really pay attention to how many episodes we pump out. And we don’t really do episodes to celebrate how many years we’ve been doing this, but we felt that we had to pause and celebrate today. Slow going as our narrative is,

Dr G 1:51
I think you mean thorough and detailed as our narrative is.

Dr Rad 1:54
It is, it is. Thorough and detailed. So today is a special episode, because the last time we spoke, we hit a century.

Dr G 2:05
Yeah, we’re about to tip into a whole new world in terms of the numbers. Whether that means anything for the Romans is anybody’s guess, but it certainly means something for us. So we’re about to switch away from the fifth century BCE, and we thought to ourselves, let’s just take a moment take stock of the situation. How far has Rome come in its first century as a republic?

Dr Rad 2:36
Exactly. So today is the most gigantic partial recap. If that even makes sense that we’ve ever done.

Dr G 2:44
I’m not even willing to call it a recap. It’s going to be bigger than that.

Dr Rad 2:49
Yeah, yeah, as we look at the fifth century.

Dr G 2:54
Yeah, so we started talking about the Roman Republic, which officially started in 509, ish, so just at the very end of the sixth century, and that was in Episode 45 which was called ‘The Last Gasp of the Regal Period’. And it was so long ago that it was in 2015.

Dr Rad 3:17
Jesus Christ.

Dr G 3:22
Are we going as slow as the Romans?

Dr Rad 3:25
We’re living it in real time, history unfolding before your very eyes.

Dr G 3:30
A little bit of history repeating…

Dr Rad 3:32
Exactly.

Dr G 3:33
And it has taken us 108 episodes to get from that point in time to the end of the fifth century BCE, which legitimately means that we’ve got an episode for just about every year that the Republic has been in existence so far.

Dr Rad 3:53
I was going to say that sounds astronomical, but when you think about it, should we be surprised? I mean, we do basically cover a year an episode. That’s kind of our thing.

Dr G 4:02
Well, that’s true and but sometimes we cover two years because there’s not much going on, and then sometimes so much is going on that we need to devote more than one episode to a single year. So this is, I think it’s a nice sort of like marry up a parallel at this point, to be in a situation where we’ve got as many episodes as they’ve been years basically, yeah, I think the fifth century BCE, the evidence has been pretty thin on the ground, really.

Dr Rad 4:35
And yet, somehow we fleshed it out into almost 10 years worth of podcasting.

Dr G 4:39
Incredible, incredible stuff. I think, yeah, it’s a high five for us. I’ll put in a sound effect there.

Dr Rad 4:45
Oh, definitely, yeah. So look, I have to say this as well. I think is something we needed to do because of the very nature of podcasting, particularly the way that you and I do it, whereas you say we do delve into the details, because when you’re doing a podcasting. Show the big difference between doing this and, say, writing a book on the fifth century BCE is that if you were writing a book, you would obviously sit down, you would research the whole period at once. It might take you a few years to actually come to grips with all the material, do all your research, pull it together into the structure that you want, and then you write it, and then it’s reviewed, etc, etc, right? Whereas with podcasting, it is quite different, because we are, we are looking very much at it unfolding in sort of real time, in that we’re not reading ahead that far, if, if at all. Sometimes we are just looking at the year that that was, and we are, we are definitely doing our research into interesting things that pop up as we look at the accounts, but we’re certainly not looking ahead. I think that’s kind of actually the nice part of it. We’re kind of as surprised as the Romans in that we’re like, oh, wow, that happened. Wasn’t expecting that. So that’s why, I think looking back now and trying to take it all in what we’ve covered over the last almost 10 years is kind of important, because now we can kind of look back and say, right, well, now we know everything that happened. What do we think of this century?

Dr G 6:10
Yeah, now that we’ve we’ve done every year conceivable that we could across this whole period of time, what can we take away from it? So this episode is more going to be like a discussion of some of the really big themes and events that occurred throughout this century, and just a sense of like, where we think things are at with Rome now that we’ve gotten to the end of this period and we’re about to tip into a whole new century. So if people come to this podcast in many years hence, and they’re like, I don’t know where to start with the fifth century. Come to this episode first before you go right back and listen to all of the others.

Dr Rad 6:50
You can, rebel, you. Rebel listeners, you can listen out of order. My God.

Dr G 6:56
The horror.

Dr Rad 6:57
The horror. I have to say, I actually enjoyed this century a lot more than I thought I would. And that’s another reason why I think it’s actually important to talk about it, because it it is a bit of a forgotten century. I feel, you know, people talk about skipped over, yes, yeah. People talk about that very, very early stuff where the Republic is founded, which is obviously so key, because people care so much about the Roman Republic, people like to talk about it a lot, but then I feel like people just zoom straight ahead to like the Punic Wars, or maybe the Samnite wars, or even, dare I say it, the fall of Veii. Spoilers!

Dr G 7:37
Which still has not happened yet for us.

Dr Rad 7:39
I know, I know, but they don’t pay attention to the stuff that happens. And actually, I’m like, wow, this actually tells us so much about the way, the way that the Romans wrote their history, the way that they conceptualize themselves. I actually see this as being kind of foundational. Now I’m so glad that we did actually go through year by year.

Dr G 7:58
Yeah, and I think there is a real pleasure in the slow reading of material that we’ve engaged in as well. So this is something that as a working historian, you sometimes don’t get the luxury of doing just sitting with a text for a really long period of time and going through it really slowly. You want to be able to do that, but often what you’re called to do in the profession is to dig into things quite quickly, come to grips with stuff really fast, and then find the key pieces that will really help you say the things that you’re hoping to bring together to search for the hypothesis. And that really slow, close reading, and close rereading, is kind of fundamental to the pleasure of doing history, but it is also something that sometimes you don’t get to do quite as much as you’d like to, like you might be prepping to teach, or you might be trying to finish off an article, and all those sorts of things are pressured deadlines, which means that slow reading engagement is something that you might have to build into your spare time, and we’ve been really fortunate to be able to do that within the context of producing a podcast together.

Dr Rad 9:09
Completely agree, I tend to dip in an out of source material, if I’m writing an article or writing a book, and just finding the stuff that I absolutely have to read because there is a deadline looming, and I need to get through things as quickly as possible. So yeah, I think this is something that is unusual, and yet should be such a key part of what it is that historians do. Yeah, slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. All right. Dr, G, so you have very kindly put together a highlights reel for us here, which we’re going to explore. So why don’t you tell me what stood out to you, looking back on the fifth century BC as a defining theme.

Dr G 9:48
I think one of the first things that I think is worthy of mention is that we have the introduction of the role of dictator. So this is something that fundamentally you can. Not have under a monarchy, it doesn’t really work like that. The king’s in charge. The king does all the things. They’re both the spiritual leader and the military leader and the judicial person. Those functions really get split up and broken away and sort of hived off in different directions. As we head into the republic, people see the monarch as somebody who has way too much of various powers, and that needs to be dealt with. Having said that, though the early republic of Rome is a messy place, and they’re trying to do something new with their government, and they’re not really sure quite if it’s working or not, and sometimes they do get themselves into a bit of a spot of bother. Sometimes that relates to their relationship with the gods, sometimes that relates to the military, sometimes that relates to judicial matters. And in times of real need, all of a sudden they’re like, well, might be good to have one person really in charge and just in charge for a small amount of time. And this is where the idea of the dictator sort of comes into play. They’ve got various roles that they can fulfill, but the idea is that they definitely have to step down. It is a temporary position, and they must step down once they’ve fulfilled their mandate. So I think this is fundamental to the nature of the fifth century BCE, because Rome sort of harks back to the kings without necessarily returning to the kings at times.

Dr Rad 11:33
Absolutely, I agree. I think that if you were to open a popular history of Rome. And there was anything on this period which a would shock me, but let’s pretend that this is happening. It would very much tell you that in 509 BCE, the last king of Rome was expelled. The Romans vowed never to have kings again, and they introduced this new system, which was structured like this. One thing that you and I have really seen, whilst going into the details of this, is how much of a lie that is.

Dr G 12:07
Can you imagine having a whole group of people just being like, we’re not doing it that way anymore, and then having completely smooth transition into a unknown, completely new, shiny system that they’ve made up on the spot, basically, and it not having any issues whatsoever. It’s just unrealistic.

Dr Rad 12:28
Exactly. I mean, to be honest, I don’t know why that actually even surprises us. Anybody who’s been through a restructure of any company or institution that you work at. We all know it takes years, years to figure that kind of stuff out. It takes all sorts of HR management. It takes people having tantrums. It takes clashes, it takes complaints. It is a complicated process, and that is in the modern age. I don’t know why we’d think that the ancient world would be so much more seamless.

Dr G 13:00
It’s certainly not seamless, and it doesn’t take them very long to sort of hit a snag in this new republic of theirs.

Dr Rad 13:08
No, no, it doesn’t at all.

Dr G 13:09
The first traditional dictator is a guy called Titus Larcius Flavus, and he’s brought in in 498, BCE, so the Republic isn’t even a decade old, no, so it’s an issue. They’re like, uh oh, we need somebody, and his job, basically, is to deal with the lingering supporters for the last king, Tarquinius Superbus, that man who doesn’t want to die, doesn’t want to go away, would still like to be king, really? Oh, yeah, and he does have factional support, so it’s a bit like, look, any politician that you really don’t like that just keeps returning and keeps trying to get themselves back into power. Tarquinius Superbus is your man.

I’m sure I don’t know what you mean. Dr, G.

I’m not name dropping. I’m not going to date this podcast.

Dr Rad 14:05
Yeah, it’s 2024, where would we be seeing that kind of thing happening?

Dr G 14:10
No idea. So they call up this Titus Larcius Flavus to deal with this situation. And in addition to that, there seems to be some broad issues with the Sabines, which are Rome’s neighbors to the east, up in the hills. So there’s unrest politically. You know, we’ve got some monarchical elements still at play. We’ve got the neighbors of Rome causing a bit of an issue. And so he gets out his lictors. He gets to have a lot of lictors. They get to have their fasces with the axes, which makes everybody a little bit perturbed. And Bob’s your uncle. We’ve got our first dictator.

Dr Rad 14:53
I know. And I kind of love the idea that, however, this system came together, the Romans eventually, basically. Had a built in band aid for their world, literally, a band aid solution.

Dr G 15:08
Having a terrible time? Not sure what to do now? Quick, appoint somebody dictator! So there had to be an agreement about who the dictator would be. That was pretty important. And there is an outlying, even earlier contender to be the first dictator. Scholars tend to not be sure about this one, though, so he doesn’t usually get the name this guy, Manlius Valerius Volsesi, was apparently a player in 501 BCE, but the sauces are pretty thin on the ground, so that one’s usually dismissed. But then we have, like, some really stand out figures and the most famous dictator, and shout out to our fans in Cincinnati. This guy takes the cake in the fifth century, we have Cincinnatus as dictator, and he holds the role twice, which is phenomenal stuff.

Dr Rad 16:09
Yeah, and that’s on top of his other positions that he holds, not to mention his family’s general domination of politics in the latter half of the fifth century BCE.

Dr G 16:21
Yeah, they’re a pretty phenomenal family, and he does not want to be dictator, for sure, he’s busy, if I recall rightly, farming without his shirt on. When they come and find him.

Dr Rad 16:33
Who could forget that scene?

Dr G 16:36
I’d never forget a scene like that. And he was so good at the job and resolving the crisis at that point in time that about 30 years later, or maybe 20 years later, they called him up to be dictator again, by which time, he was a crotchety old man and even more grumpy than he was the first time. And he’s like, are you sure you don’t want to pick a younger man for this? He must have been in his 70s or 80s by that time, and he very reluctantly became dictator again.

Dr Rad 17:09
But this is, I love Cincinnatus as something to talk about, because, as we’ve said before, but bears repeating now, because the fifth century BC is a little murky with source material. I think it’s very much still one of those periods that the sources that we’re mostly consulting, that were written later are looking back to for exemplars, and Cincinnatus, I’m sure probably did historically exist, that’s not to say that he is a myth. However, I do think that his life the way that he conducts himself, it does become an exemplar that later Romans will reach back to as their perfect man, someone who’s rural, rustic, embraces those traditional values of hard work and discipline and does not want to hold on to power. Because, as we’ve said many a time, this is the ultimate man. The dream man for the Romans is someone who is really good at exercising power but doesn’t actually want it.

Dr G 18:11
Oh yeah, you can, you can almost feel Cato the Elder loving this guy from a couple of centuries hence. That sense of being tied to the land is a very fundamental concept of the early, mid and even late republic, the idea that a true Roman is centered in the farm, somehow, in that rustic landscape, not in the urban environment where the politics is happening and yeah, Cincinnatus is ticking all of those reluctant leader boxes.

Dr Rad 18:46
Absolutely. Um, do you mind if I get political for a moment? So I know that, I know this is going to put a timestamp on this episode, which is not ideal, but I can never resist it whilst, whilst, obviously, it’s not exactly the same. I do think that there is also still something about maybe certain people these days where we are a little suspicious of anyone who’s too keen to hold power, even in our own time. And whilst I certainly would not say that I approve or agree with everything Joe Biden did as President of the United States of America, there is something to be said for somebody who, okay, admittedly, after a lot of pressure, did at least step down when it was clear that him being in that position was no good for anyone anymore. It is not a perfect scenario in that there certainly had to be a gigantic amount of pressure put on him before he took that step. So I’m certainly not holding him up as a paragon of virtue in that respect, but there is something to be said for somebody who does at least eventually read the room and realize that it’s time to go.

Dr G 19:58
Wow.

Dr Rad 19:59
Yeah, which is not something that can be said for everyone.

Dr G 20:04
That is true, and we’ll get to a couple of examples of people who do not know how to read the room in the fifth century BCE in this episode, for sure.

Dr Rad 20:14
Anyway, all right, so the next thing is something that we have spent many hours of our lives talking about. So how could anyone forget? Not going to surprise our listeners here, but the Struggle of the Orders, Dr G.

Dr G 20:26
And boy, is it a struggle. It just keeps on happening.

Dr Rad 20:30
It definitely does. So certainly, the fifth century BCE is the time where we see the kickoff, something that will actually last for a couple of 100 of years, which is the patricians and the pabeans, these apparent classes that exist in ancient Rome and are consistently at loggerheads with each other. And it flares up and it dies down periodically. It depends what’s happening, but it’s always there lurking around the corner. I don’t think we could probably go more than – ooh, I’m gonna say one or two years, really – without some mention of something happening between the patricians and the plebeians.

Dr G 21:11
Yes. And I think the major issue that we’ve returned to many times and bears repeating is that the historicity of this conflict is really open to question. Who are the patricians? Who are the plebeians? It’s not at all clear we don’t have enough good, solid, independent evidence outside of our written source material that was produced much later to give us some insight into what is going on here. So it does make it really hard to know whether we’re on firm ground with this. The idea that there would be social and political tensions in any state, particularly as it’s starting to grow and expand, and particularly since they’ve just changed their system of government seems a reasonable assumption, and what shape that really took is kind of anybody’s guess at that point. But this Struggle of the Orders, is it flares up in a number of ways across this century, and we’ll get into more detail on that. It’s a big deal, and it seems to be positioned very much in our source material as the elite faction within the social structure of Rome is very much trying to push its own agenda. And obviously they have the power and the platform to do that, and this leaves the people who are locked outside of that pretty frustrated a lot of the time.

Dr Rad 22:43
Yeah, I think that’s exactly it. I think that’s why it’s been so appealing, actually, to look at it, particularly with the world scenarios that we face these days, the idea of powerful people managing to establish such a domination on the institutions that control everyone’s lives and the frustration that comes with that, I think we can very much sympathize with that. I think that’s been very clear in the way that we’ve talked about it.

Dr G 23:14
Yes, yes,

Dr Rad 23:16
Yeah, it’s not that we don’t know how things work, which sometimes seems to be the case in the conflict of the orders, like it sometimes seems like there is some sort of knowledge or oral tradition or training or something that is at stake here, where only certain people maybe are familiarized with that or know it really well, and that that may be part of the frustration. But even once that issue is somewhat resolved, it definitely is this frustration of like a lack of representation, a lack of access to certain parts of the state. So whilst we might not necessarily feel confident in who the patricians are, who the plebeians are, we certainly wouldn’t want to suggest that there isn’t some sort of power struggle happening in ancient Rome in the fifth century BCE. It might just be that the way that our later sources choose to explain it, it maybe reflects a little bit more of events closer to their own time than what was actually happening. And that’s why it seems a bit dubious. But certainly they’re probably very aware that there was some sort of power struggle going on within Rome, within certain factions. We just can’t be certain who made up those factions, and sometimes it feels like that story is being projected onto maybe a fairly bare bones account. And so they’re like, I can’t quite make sense of this. I know it must have something to do with the Struggle of the Orders!

Dr G 24:35
Guess what, guys? It’s the struggle and fair enough. And this leads us into a couple of really big ticket events that take place in the fifth century, which is the first and the second plebeian secession,

Dr Rad 24:49
Ah, yes.

Dr G 24:49
where, this idea that the have nots get so completely frustrated with their inability to be able to. To produce something in this new republic that actually helps them, supports them in their difficult lives, that they decide it’s easier to up sticks and go somewhere else and leave all of those elite, Fancy Pants patrician people to rule over each other in without the plebeians having to be involved. And it doesn’t seem to take very long. So we talk about the way that we have the first dictator in about 498 and then only four years later in 494 so we’re less than 20 years into the Republic. At this point, it seems that certain people have gotten so jack of this system that they’re like, it’s time to go somewhere else. Let’s leave Rome. We’ve been here for a while. I don’t want anything more to do with it. And so they leave what is the urban boundary of Rome, which is determined by the pomerium, and they go and head out to a place known as the Mons Sacer, “the sacred mount”, sometimes also referred to as the Aventine. But they might be different places, and it’s this moment where they seem to decide that they need their own representation as well. They need people to negotiate on their behalf, because the patricians aren’t satisfied with this situation. They’re like, what are you doing? Running away. We need you. We need you. And they’re like, Well, you need to treat us better. So it’s a bit like an abusive relationship.

Dr Rad 26:30
It does feel that way.

Dr G 26:32
It does feel that way. And what the plebeians do is they nominate a couple of people to represent their interests. So they kind of like, go for like, you can talk to our lawyers. Okay, don’t talk to me. Talk to my lawyers. And these two people become the start of what will be known as the tribune of the plebs.

Dr Rad 26:54
Very important.

Dr G 26:54
Very important.

Dr Rad 26:56
And this is really interesting as well, because we talked obviously about the dictator coming into play in this century, but this is obviously the century when we see the tribune of the plebs come into play, which remains a really important and unusual position in Rome’s history for different reasons at different times. Obviously it shifts with with each century, but certainly it becomes a real bug bear in the quarrels between the patricians and the plebeians, because the patricians really regret ever giving into this. They’re like, damn it. They really had me over a barrel, and I wish I’d never agreed to that. And they’re constantly trying to think of ways to either undermine this office or actually get their hands on it so that they can presumably dominate that as well.

Dr G 27:41
Kind of horrifying. Very like, Okay, you have representation, but how can we ruin that for you? So it doesn’t interfere with our…

Dr Rad 27:48
We should have never given you that representation!

Dr G 27:50
I have regrets.

Dr Rad 27:54
Regrets, I have a few.

Dr G 27:58
A patrician refrain for the ages.

Dr Rad 28:01
I was gonna say “My Way” seems a very fitting song for the patricians. I think that’s kind of why the plebians are always so upset.

Dr G 28:07
It does make an awful lot of sense.

Dr Rad 28:09
Yeah.

Dr G 28:09
So we have this situation where the in the first secession, the plebeians are convinced to return. It does take some negotiation. They’re like, all right, but you know, we need to have this political representation. We need these tribune of the plebs. Now, all of this is kind of up for grabs in terms of the source material as well. We certainly are not sure about most things to do with this century, but these are the tales that our source material, like Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are suggesting, Dionysius of Halicarnassus are suggesting, and you have some smoothing over of all of this, but problems do bubble under the surface, and that’s what the struggle of the orders is really suggesting, that this is an ongoing process of struggle between These groups, and it all comes to a head again in 449, BCE, which is the second plebeian secession, where everyone’s like, just no, just no. And this is also a controversial situation as well, because at this stage, the republic is not smoothly functioning at all really. They’re under the leadership of a group called the decemvirate so things have gotten a little bit out of hand, and this will tie into some other things as well as we get further into this. But essentially, people are interested in knowing exactly what the laws are in this place, and it seems like some people have been keeping the laws a bit secret. They haven’t been written down properly. They’re not in a public, accessible place, so you can’t just go and find out what the laws are for yourself. Usually, what seems to happen is you try to do something. Thing as a citizen of Rome, somebody more powerful or important than you tells you that you’re not allowed to do that, and in fact, you’ve broken the law, and you didn’t even know that there was a law about that. So there’s a real frustration coming through that, well, if this place has laws, surely everyone needs to know what they are, and this is where they decide to establish something like the decemvirate, which is a group of 10 men, and we’ll get into more detail about them later, but they’re supposed to be putting together a publicly accessible law record. So that’d be nice, but it’s not going well. The plebeians decide they need to secede again. They run away. They head to the Aventine and to the Capitolione Hills. And this really forces another negotiation moment with the elite class. And so there’s this whole situation again, where the patricians have to, sort of, you know, make some concessions. It’s not ideal. They don’t want to, but everybody’s threatening to leave them. So they’re like, Okay, maybe I need to talk to them.

Dr Rad 31:08
It took quite a few diamond tennis bracelets and red roses to win them back.

Dr G 31:12
Well, look, you know, some paid lunches would really be helpful right now.

Dr Rad 31:17
But this is these two secessions are actually the perfect example of how we’ve got the this larger narrative being used to tie together events which may have been quite separate, because the first secession is really about debt, about the fact that with all the warfare happening on top of just the general inequality and hardship that is life in ancient Rome at that point in time, people are really struggling to hang on to what little they have, because they’re constantly away fighting things fall into neglect. They fall into debt. It just becomes a vicious cycle where eventually they find themselves, you know, enslaved for debt in some cases, and they’re not happy about that. The second secession comes about because of the law about the laws. As you said, people wanting things to be written down so that they don’t, you know, find themselves, you know, someone running up to something going, oh, a black cat crossed your path on a Sunday. That’ll be 10 sesterces. Not that that would happen. That’s ridiculous in our every circumstances. But the law about the laws is the key to the decemvirate, so it’s a totally different issue, on top of which it’s also about the fact that the second decemvirate doesn’t let go of their power, that is a trigger, and they’re abusing their power. So it’s also relating to those sorts of issues, so seemingly quite different reasons to secede if we do believe that the second secession happened, but they are, they are both tied together as being examples of this larger conflict of the orders. And maybe our sources are a bit wrong about that. Maybe there are just different points of political social tension in ancient Rome, and it just seems like there’s a larger narrative going on here.

Dr G 32:58
Yeah, perhaps this is a view from hindsight, as we can often talk about as historians. It’s like you have to be really careful when thinking about any event in time and how it might be interconnected or not with the things that happen afterwards. You don’t want to get ahead of yourself too much. I’m not sure that Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are necessarily as concerned about things like that.

Dr Rad 33:25
But I have a feeling they’re not.

Dr G 33:27
That certainly adds some complexity to what we can know about this century. So we’ve talked about the introduction of the tribune of the plebs as being related in part to this Struggle of the Orders. And what we also see, or what is also suggested in our source material, is that although they start out with two representatives, this does expand over the course of the century, until we get to about 10 later on. So part of what makes the tribune of the plebs really special is the fact that their body is considered to be inviolable in the time that they’re holding the role. And this means that in times of physical danger, citizens can run up to them and sort of hold on to the tribune, if you like, sort of seek physical protection, and because the tribune is considered to be inviolable, they are able to physically protect citizens. Now this seems like a really kind of specific thing, but if you think about what would life have been like in the early urban Roman state, where some people are allowed to carry sticks by permission and some people are not, you might think to yourself, well, sometimes you need to run away from the guys with the cudgels and find some safety with somebody who’s designated as inviolable you cannot produce. Violence against them. So that’s the thing. So I think when we think about Rome, obviously it comes to mind as this kind of like militaristic, powerful empire. But in this early period of history, we can start to see these really early, tangible signs of the kind of physical violence that’s always at play in its political landscape, even amongst themselves. So the fact that to be a magistrate means you do get to have a bodyguard, and you can push people out of the way, and if things are going really badly, you can hit people suggest that this is a pretty rough and ready place, and having somebody who is able to offer physical protection to people who are outside of the elite becomes a really important force, and we seem to think that it develops in this century.

Dr Rad 35:52
I have to say, thinking about the tribune of the playoffs at this moment in time, it does make ancient Rome sound like a gigantic game of cops and robbers, and robbers and the tribune of the plebs is the safe you know, like, when you used to play that game, when you were little, you’d be like, safe. I’m safe. Can’t touch me. I’m safe.

Dr G 36:08
Yup yup. I found the person. Tap it.

Dr Rad 36:11
Yeah, but it does, as you say, it kind of highlights just how small scale all of this must have been violent, but small scale, because if you just have two guys who are the safe points. It wouldn’t really work if Rome was gigantic.

Dr G 36:25
Yeah, you would hope that it’s a small place, because that doesn’t seem like enough people to offer protection.

Dr Rad 36:32
No, it does not. I also feel kind of bad for the tribunes. I feel like they would receive a lot of very sweaty, panicky hugs.

Dr G 36:39
Wow. You know,

Dr Rad 36:40
Tasty.

Dr G 36:42
Thank you. Yes, I’ll save you, just don’t touch me. And the patricians aren’t very happy about this. This would seem.

Dr Rad 36:52
No.

Dr G 36:53
It’s a problem. They didn’t really want to allow this. They had to. They were forced into this, and so they are often seeking to bring down the tribune of the plebs from within, it would seem, either through bribery, outright threats, or even worst of all, trying to co opt themselves into the roles so that they also are a tribune of the plebs and can whittle things away from the inside in that sense. So there is a sense in which the tribune of the plebs is always a little bit contentious and also a little bit exposed at all times to whatever the patricians are up to.

Dr Rad 37:37
I do love that idea that the patricians are like, yeah. I mean, it’s totally legit for me to represent plebeian interests and be attributed with the plebs as a patrician. Like, what’s the problem, guys?

Dr G 37:46
I’m interested in your best interests. I’m interested in all our best interests,

Dr Rad 37:52
Conflicting interests? I don’t know what you mean! The height of absurdity. So Dr, G, I believe if people want to go back and listen to our very first episode covering the tribune of the plebs, they have to go all the way back to Episode 59 which we called “Introducing the Tribune of the Plebs”.

Dr G 38:12
I’m glad we’ve got this very, very logical naming system. Easy to find what you’re looking for, guys.

Dr Rad 38:20
Indeed.

Dr G 38:21
We talk about the children of the plebs a lot.

Dr Rad 38:22
Yeah. Now, of course, it’s not all internal drama by any means. In Rome in the fifth century, if anything, this is the century that Rome starts to really put itself on the map. I think I mean the Regal period, sure, but it’s a little bit, you know, it’s a little bit more mythical, dare I say legendary? It’s a little hard to know what’s going on in that time period. So there’s certainly not a predominant power at any point in this century. They are not the Rome that gets made into glorious movies like Gladiator.

Dr G 38:57
Certainly not.

Dr Rad 38:58
But we do see some really interesting interactions with them and other major powers in Italy at this point in time. So we of course have the Etruscans to the north, very influential culture on Rome itself. There’s a lot of interchange there, but also, you know, some conflict. And then we also have the Sabines to the east. They are major players in the fifth century, not quite as much, though, as the aequians and the volscians who are to the south and the Southeast. Oh, if I had $1 for every time I’d said the Aequians and the Volscians, Dr, G.

Dr G 39:38
You would be able to retire right now.

Dr Rad 39:40
I could be a podcaster full time. It’d be amazing. Let’s set up that system.

Dr G 39:45
Yes, I think so. So yeah, Rome is small. It is not predominant in its region necessarily. It seems to be engaging in back and forth conflict. With all of its neighbors. And the fifth century, within the broader terms of what we know about Italy itself, the whole the whole kit and caboodle from north to south, that whole peninsula across this century, it seems to be a century where nobody is really flourishing as much as they have done previously.

Dr Rad 40:22
That is true, yeah.

Dr G 40:23
So the Etruscans seem to have this really sort of thriving trading culture, and they have an influence that spreads all the way into Campania so south of Rome in the sixth century, and that seems to really be curtailed in the fifth century. So they start to lose their foothold in the south, and they start to expand a little bit more and flourish more in the north. So if you think about where the Po River is, they’re doing quite well up there in the fifth century, but where Rome is in the center of Italy, the Etruscans aren’t doing so well, and it’s becoming that that’s their lowest threshold, like the lowest point into Italy, that they are able to retain any control. They lose that influence in Campania. And so that’s all happening. You’ve got the situation in Magna Graecia, where, again, the archeological record suggests that the trading has really slowed down, that you’ve got a lot of infighting between peoples who are from ancestral Greek colonist backgrounds with people from Italic backgrounds. So there starts to be some more internal fighting going on, and the trade network sort of falling away a little bit, and Rome sort of comes through in this era, but we don’t see them flourishing in particular in this century, and they actually have a lot of trouble in certain moments. There’s some good 10 year periods in this century where it seems like they’re getting sort of hit by plague, or they’re going back and forwards against the Volscians and the Aequians, but the next year they lose, and the next year they win, and they’re just sort of fighting over the same bits of territory and the same bits of booty, and it doesn’t appear to be going anywhere. So Rome isn’t preeminent by any means. They have a couple of friends in the region, but they also are struggling with a foothold, and we do get this sense that one of the ways that warfare operates in this century seems to be through the framework of the family. So the gens is a really important mechanism for military power, and the one that really stands out is the Fabian gens in this century, because they’re nearly completely wiped out through their conflict with the Etruscan outpost of Cremera to the north in around about 477 BCE. So they have this huge problem where they lose almost every eligible man who could continue their patriarchal line in this moment. And so we get the sense that warfare isn’t just about elite people trying to levy an army together, but it is about families determining what their interests are and where they might want to send their own personal war band.

Dr Rad 43:28
And I think that this leads so much into the politics that we’ve just been talking about as well. I think with military power obviously being so crucial to Rome survival at this point in time, forget about thriving, just survival against all these other rival powers. With that military backbone being so crucial, it makes sense that we also see the genses being so crucial in political life as well, and certain families being more dominant than others, the networks, you know, the patron client relationships that kind of start to spring up. It’s very futile when we look at it. And that’s where I think the chaos comes from as well, because it is about whether these families, I think, actually have the ability to follow through in a military sense, not just a political sense. And that’s why I think that there’s a little bit more chaos to it than you might otherwise be led to believe where it’s like, well, the republic was founded, and this is how it worked. And, you know, this is how it operated.

Dr G 44:28
Yeah, so the sense that there is, like, this chaotic, familial element that is at the heart of Roman politics, I think, is a really useful idea to take away from the fifth century, because it is going to continue. We’re going to see the rise of different gentes over time, and that’s part and parcel of the way that Roman politics is centered in the extended family in really particular ways. So obviously you have an expanding range of magisterial positions that occur as we go through time in the fifth century. We’re not entirely sure about how complex that structure is, but there’s some and it’s going to get more complex, but certainly we see patterns of families coming into these roles, and it seems to be the case that there is a sense of trust that if a family has held a position before, then they kind of have an experience that will be useful for the next person in their family who comes into that role. So families build reputations within this republican structure in a way that may have not been possible in a monarchical system, but we also see that warband element, so we can’t forget the way that family is operating here, and maybe it is having more of an effect than we’re really aware of. The Struggle of the Orders might be repositioned as something like struggles amongst gentes, for instance.

Dr Rad 46:00
Yeah, definitely. And I think it also makes sense that if we look at the archeological record, and I know this is something we flagged in our detailed episodes, but it makes sense that this would be a century of strife and highs and lows. If we can see in the archeological record that most societies in Italy are struggling at this point in time. You know, there’s even scholars who will write about this thing of the fifth century crisis. So we know that whenever humans are just natural, isn’t it that if you’re put in a difficult position, there’s higher stress in terms of either the cost of your living or having access to certain resources that you need, it’s only natural that you’re going to be more aggressive, perhaps more ready to fight with other people and other groups. It just makes sense. That’s why people are obviously. It’s one of the many reasons why, in this day and age, in 2024 people are so concerned about the effect that climate change is going to have, because it is going to reduce our resources, and it is going to increase our cost of living. So it’s all very well and good to hark back to good old days when none of this was a problem. But that’s not a political problem, you know, you can, you can look back on, you know, things 20, 30, years ago and think, oh, wow, we had it really good back then. I’m going to, you know, think about the politics back then and try and return to that era. That’s not what this is about environmental issues, which, you know, going back to that political party, isn’t going to change. And so to me, it makes so much sense, because what we see in our own time period, I think, is emblematic of what they’re going through. You know, it’s just, it’s just about pressure, stress, all those same sorts of things, human, behavior, I don’t think changes that much in these sort of broader areas that we’re looking at.

Dr G 47:44
Yeah, and I think this is one of the keys to thinking about this state of lack of flourishing, if you like, it’s environmental, and this has consequences for the culture.

Dr Rad 47:57
Yeah.

Dr G 47:57
You can see that playing out pretty clearly for the Romans in this period, like they are on struggle street, and there’s various ways that they try to deal with that, one of which is this decemvirate that I flagged earlier. You know, it’s tough. So by the mid fifth century, BCE, so 452, nobody seems to be particularly happy in Rome. Maybe it’s to do with the dominance of certain elite folk. Maybe it’s to do with the ongoing year on year wars that seem to be coming up and dragging on. But there does become a sense of concern around this idea that the laws are just not explicitly known, and a codification of them would be an important step. This pressure has been building for a while, and this eventually culminates in the creation of the “decemviri consulari imperio legibus scribundis”, the 10 men with consular imperium for writing down the laws.

Dr Rad 49:07
Romans really have to work on their catchy titles for things.

Dr G 49:11
We can call them the decemvirs, I think that’s easier. So they effectively replace the consulship for a short while. And I don’t know.

Dr Rad 49:19
Well, all magistracies, isn’t it? Like, basically, there are no – I thought it was the case that they were like no magistracies apart from – and that’s why it was such a big step, because they had to hand over everything to these guys. It wasn’t it because there was, like, no place of appeal?

Dr G 49:34
Yes. But also, do we have other magistrates?

Dr Rad 49:38
Well, that’s the question.

Dr G 49:41
So I wasn’t I was considering opening the thorny door of, do we even have consuls? But I’m gonna leave that mostly shut.

Dr Rad 49:49
Don’t rain on my parade of imaginary magistrates!

Dr G 49:53
There are some people who used to be in charge in Rome, and now they have been replaced by these 10 men who have a singular job. Their job is to write down the laws, and that would be fine. You got to get the codification. You got to get it done. This is going to become the Twelve Tables, which is exciting, but the project takes way longer than anybody is expecting, and it’s important that they’re given consular imperium as well, because this means that if they need to take a break from the codification of the laws and go and fight a war instead, they have the legitimate authority to do that too. So things take longer than anybody thought they would. One wonders, if they’re being delayed deliberately? Isn’t it nice to be in power? Isn’t it nice for you and nine of your buddies to be swatting about in charge of this place and not really have to give it up until you get the job done? But what if you do? Yeah, what if it takes your whole life to get that job done? So anyway, in 450 it’s decided that there needs to be a second decemvirate. So the first one sort of dragged on a little bit too long, at least twice as long as expected, because they thought it would only take a year, but it’s taken at least two and they’re like, okay, we need to get a second group of these guys. And we really need to finish this task. And the second group is really the choice pick of a guy called Appius Claudius. So he stands out as the preeminent figure in this time period. He has enough charisma and enough tszuj that everyone’s like, well, he should be in charge of that second decemvirate. So he handpicks it basically, and has all of his buddies brought in, and then they all start behaving badly, I think might be the nice way of putting it.

Dr Rad 51:49
To the surprise of nobody who knows the Claudian family.

Dr G 51:54
The Claudian family does have a reputation. Remember this, it is going to become important over and over again.

Dr Rad 52:03
It will, it will different branches and yet.

Dr G 52:06
And yet, yeah, they can’t help themselves. He ends up ruining some innocent lives. And it’s only after a supreme act of violation of Verginia, who is a plebeian woman that the Roman senate who standing off in the background, just a bunch of old men being like, yeah, I don’t know if we should let him do this anymore. They finally are persuaded that the decemvirate needs to be dealt with.

Dr Rad 52:38
And the murder of Dentatus. Dr G, everyone forgets the murder of Dentatus, “the man with teeth”.

Dr G 52:44
The murder of Dentatus is still etched in my soul, because I will never be over the grief. Let’s make that clear. Dentatus did so much, and how was he repaid? Terribly. So eventually, the decemvriate is shut down, we get what we think is their work in the fragments that remain of the Twelve Tables. And it is a bonkers text. So it does seem like maybe the patricians were making up some laws because it’s chaotic out there.

Dr Rad 53:15
Yeah, but it’s so fundamental, isn’t it? It’s such a big deal whenever a society gets to this point where they’re like, right? We’re codifying the laws, and we’re going to write them down this time.

Dr G 53:25
Once and for all, people will know what’s going on. And boy, absolutely did you want to know less about fruit trees.

Dr Rad 53:32
Well, that’s just it. That what we have left of the Twelve Tables, we do have a bit, but it is still somewhat fragmentary, in spite of its immense importance, apparently, to Roman society.

Dr G 53:42
Yeah, very fragmentary. A lot to do with understanding where the borders are between you and your neighbor’s property, and the sorts of things that pertain to what is okay to do if you find something on the wrong side of the fence. And yes, exactly you know, can you drop down the branches? And it’s like, sometimes you can.

Dr Rad 54:03
And this is the Roman dream, Dr G, to have your own land. Which brings me to one of the other big themes of this century, apparently, the dream of agrarian reform. So along with the law about the laws, yeah, law about the laws, issues over debt. This is probably the completes, the trio, I think, of the top plebeian demands in the Struggle of the Orders. It’s a little tricky to understand this, because if we look at what the sources say it is the fact that there is public land, the “ager publicus”, apparently.

Dr G 54:40
Apparently.

Dr Rad 54:41
And it is not always being used in a fair manner. We think that, according to our sources, the elites are perhaps controlling it overly much, instead of it being held in common use for all the citizens. Now we’ve always struggled with this storyline, because it just seems so much like the issues that arise in the late republic and are super controversial at that time period. And this is involves, for those of you who know a little bit about Roman history, the famous Gracchi brothers, Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus. They get swept up in these issues of land reform in the late republic. But it’s just brought up so many times.

Dr G 55:27
It is a huge issue, and it seems that Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are very fixated on it. It seems to be one of the pain points of the broader Struggle of the Orders, the idea that there is ager publicus – at this point in time – seems a little far fetched, I would suggest, if we think about the broader context of the fifth century in Italy is not a time of flourishing, it’s a time of struggle, generally speaking, and Rome isn’t expanding very much. Now they do make some acquisitions in the fifth century, little outposts here and there, but it is not at all clear that they are controlling vast tracts of land, no and even if they were controlling even small areas, they tend to lose them and then have to regain them back. It’s not like they are secure holdings. And let’s say, for instance, you took over a place in the fifth century, and you were Rome, and then the next year you lost it, and then the next year you gained it back. Do you gain it back in exactly the same way that you had it before? And what portion of that, if any, would be considered common use land? Goodness knows, it’s madness to me. So I feel like this is something that is really hard to reconcile with just how unstable things appear to be. In the fifth century BCE, the Romans are very much struggling to hold targets that they acquire if they are expanding. It’s not at all clear where that land would go or how it would be used, although sometimes there’s mention of colonists being sent out. And, yeah, it does feel like we’re really getting a later issue being sort of superimposed on this very first century of the republic, just to sort of give us a sense that this has always been on the cards for Rome and the stories that happen much later with the Gracchi are maybe justified to a certain extent that the idea has always been at play.

Dr Rad 57:49
Yeah, and I think as well, if we brush aside the first century BCE curtain that might be covering these issues, maybe what is at stake here is that with all this warfare going on with Rome and its neighbors, maybe it is about the fair and just distribution of booty and access to resources that are being gained in whatever expeditions the Romans are carrying on. Maybe that’s really what is at stake here, and for Livy and Dionysius living in the time period that they live in, that would be land, you know, that that would be a major issue, or maybe it reflects a paucity of land in this time period that people are struggling to survive. I can kind of see some connection, obviously, between that and the issues of debt that we’ve talked about and and there being a division between, obviously, people that have more and people that have less. It’s not necessarily that that that you can put that directly on top of patricians for beings, but I can definitely understand that. It’s a very old story, and one that we still obviously experience now, this division between people that have very much and people that have very little.

Dr G 58:59
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I think the dream of agrarian reform, it’s there. How does it manifest? And I like your theory relating to like, is it about equitable distribution of the booty, the things that are taken in warfare, as much as it might be about –

Dr Rad 59:18
Gotta divide up that ass!

Dr G 59:22
Shake it, shake it

Dr Rad 59:22
Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve done one of those jokes.

Dr G 59:25
I always appreciate them, thinking also about like, how does it look when you’re struggling to survive? And, yeah, this is one of the problems that Rome suffers from as well, is that it’s like, this is not a hunky dory time to be a Roman. It is a time where there are plagues, there are ongoing, sort of rotating military campaigns that mean that you’re losing people consistently, which is then affecting your ability to farm, affecting your ability to bring in a harvest, and, yeah, if you don’t have enough land to subsist or produce a little bit of surplus, then obviously this is going to lead to real tensions. So perhaps you do want some agrarian reform.

Dr Rad 1:00:16
Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s that’s something that, again, just to do the modern parallels, which I love to do, even though it completely time stamps out this episode. It is that idea that sometimes when people encounter things that cost a lot, like in terms of clothing or food, they get really outraged in Anglophone countries like Britain and Australia and America. And it’s understandable, because you’ve been led to believe that these sorts of things should be cheap and plentiful, but actually, when you look at the amount of labor and work that goes into producing these resources, and how crucial they are to survival, if everyone in that supply chain and in that production is getting paid well enough, then actually, these things probably should cost a little more than what we’ve been led to believe. Doesn’t mean it should. I’m not saying I agree with the cost of living crisis that is happening in many countries right now, but I think we’ve been led to believe that certain things should be cheap and that we should have huge amounts of disposable income, when actually, if you look at how people used to live in ancient Rome, a huge amount of whatever they were bringing in, not that would be cash, like for us, but whatever they were bringing in, it is labor intensive, and a lot of what they’re trying to produce is just like basic enough clothes to keep them warm or cool, depending on the season, somewhere to live and enough food to survive. That’s really what they’re looking for here. Sure, everyone enjoys entertainment, everyone enjoys that extra stuff that you have. Obviously, there is like something inbuilt in us where there’s competition and rivalry and we want to have more. But I think that comes from a self rival instinct, whereas these days, what it applies to obviously that more is becoming just so extravagant, the lifestyle that we expect with that more is just, it’s insane when you look at what people are aspiring to have, and that’s why it’s just, it’s yeah, just not reachable for most.

Dr G 1:02:12
Yeah, for sure. And I think when we’re thinking about Rome and how people are struggling in this century. It is perhaps even more, I don’t want to say, laudable, that’s the word that came to mind. But that’s not the right word. Even more interesting. Stick with something really neutral. One of my favorite words interesting that they do field as many military forces as they do absolutely part of it is about survival, and part of it is trying to create that sort of protective barrier between yourself and the danger. So if you can have that buffer zone, it’s strategic, military, you know, it’s tactical. If you can do that, that’s really useful, because that allows you to then relax a little bit in terms of being able to produce a little bit extra so that you can do that again. And that’s kind of the struggle that Rome and all of her neighbors are in, is that they’re all trying to gain just a little bit of security for themselves. That means that they’ve got enough surplus to do it again if they have to, because it’s pretty clear that they will have to year on year. So I think this leads us very nicely into thinking about the way that this militarization and conflict throughout the region is really becoming more and more severe as the century goes on, because they have to develop this whole new political entity, the military tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 1:03:55
Such a wordy title.

Dr G 1:03:57
It is a wordy title. And I don’t know that they’re I see people sort of like, you know, turning it into, like an abbreviation, the MTCP, and I’m like no! It’s the military tribune with consular power. It is so you can’t have a new political system without some teething issues. The dictator has been a bit of a solution. The tribune of the plebs a bit of a solution. And then we’ve got this idea that the major magistracies are these two consuls, this idea that there’s a sharing of what used to be monarchical power between these two figures. But sometimes you’ve got even bigger issues, and one of the key facets of the consulship is this idea that they are legally, legitimately able to field military forces, which is great, because you could have two armies going in different directions led by two different people. But what if? What if, Dr Rad, you had more than two enemies that you needed to deal with in a particular year?

Dr Rad 1:05:06
Which I think Rome often does. They managed to annoy a lot of people. It’s impressive. Actually, it’s laudable, you might say.

Dr G 1:05:14
Let’s say you’re not great at making friends. And let’s say you’re better at making enemies. And let’s say all your enemies decide to attack in the same year. Well, maybe you got a bit of a crisis on your hands, because you’ve got a situation now where you’re like, well, if I had one big issue, I could bring in a dictator, but I’ve got four big issues that I need to deal with…

Dr Rad 1:05:39
I got 99 problems.

Dr G 1:05:42
Exactly. It’s like, my problems are multiplying, and I just don’t have the manpower. And all of a sudden, you’re like, I need more people to be able to lead armies. This is where the military tribune with consular power comes in. And not only is it beneficial in terms of being able to have more armies in the field, although presumably they’re smaller armies than if you had two big armies. But there is a sense in which it’s a military tribune, which is kind of like a lower level position within the military structure. And this allows them to co-opt plebeians into this leadership role all of a sudden. Or that’s the theory anyway.

Dr Rad 1:06:27
That’s the theory.

Dr G 1:06:28
That’s the theory. So sometimes we have four military tribunes with consular power. Sometimes we have six. It gets more chaotic as the century goes on, and theoretically, we’re allowed to have some plebeians in there, but that really doesn’t happen until we get right to the end of the fifth century BCE.

Dr Rad 1:06:52
Which is, I think again, one of those interesting examples of potentially the narrative maybe overriding what was actually happening. So rather than saying, look, guys, I’m not going to lie to you, things were tough in this century. Whew, boy. We almost got snuffed out completely a few times, rather than potentially admitting that, it feels like whenever we talk about military tribunes with consular power, it’s far more a political issue, where it’s about who’s going to hold the power, the ultimate power? Is it going to be a patrician? Is it going to be a plebeian? Constantly we are talking about this rivalry, about, Oh, what the what’s the election going to be for the next year? Is it going to be a consular year, or is it going to be military tribunes with consular power? And it’s never really connected to the fact that maybe it’s because there is so much going on militarily, and then towards the end of the fifth century, BCE, rather than Rome sort of trading tit for tat with neighbors, which feels like what happens a lot of the time in the fifth century BCE, it seems like Rome is actually going a little bit more aggressively for expansion. And so it would make sense again, to have military tribunes with consular power if you were trying to be on the front foot more than you were on the back foot, or, you know, just responding to some sort of other conflict where it’s being resolved militarily. So yeah, it’s really weird that we very rarely see talk about this position, and how many there were of them in the sense of, well, Rome just has that many problems, guys.

Dr G 1:08:26
So many problems. And we just need so many people to help us out.

Dr Rad 1:08:30
Yeah.

Dr G 1:08:31
And sometimes they do get sent to similar locations. So as we hit the end of the fifth century BCE, we are at the start of the siege of Veii and it does seem like there are moments where Rome sends a whole bunch of commanders to the same location, being like, alright, well, it’s military tribunes of consular power this year. But that’s the problem, and so that does feed into this idea that you’ve suggested that we’re talking about something that is not just about the practicality of, can we field enough armies? Because we’ve got too many war fronts that we need to deal with to this is a political situation, and we certainly don’t want some people sitting in that consulship this year. It’s got to be a military tribunate instead, and the ins and outs of that are completely beyond our capacity to reckon with, with the source material that we’ve got. But it is fascinating.

Dr Rad 1:09:32
It definitely is, and I feel very happy, at least, that we did manage to get a plebeian in just under the line.

Dr G 1:09:39
Scraping in.

Dr Rad 1:09:42
Yeah. Well, Dr, G, I think that that does definitely give people a bit of a highlight through looking back and seeing those tensions between the haves and have nots, whoever they may be, we’re not. We’re not going to make them fit in these labelled categories, we’re too cool and hip for that.

Dr G 1:10:02
I don’t like, I don’t like labels.

Dr Rad 1:10:04
Yeah, don’t like labels. And definitely the power of the families and that extended family structure being so important. So the gens being really at the heart of the political and military life of Rome at this point in time, and that perhaps explaining why there is this sense of chaos. It’s just lurking beneath the order that Livy and Dionysius have given to the narratives. It seems so, seems like everything’s so together. But really, you peek underneath it, it’s not quite a set in stone, as they would have us.

Dr G 1:10:38
Yeah, open that door. Have a look inside. Close it again. Be like Rome. It’s chaos in there.

Dr Rad 1:10:42
Yeah.

Dr G 1:10:43
Rome certainly doesn’t have a formal army in this century. Far from it. It is really a situation where they have to be called up every sort of campaign season.

Dr Rad 1:10:55
Ah, the levy.

Dr G 1:10:57
Yeah. So there is a levy every time, and so people have to sign up to be on campaign, which must take a reasonable amount of time. So that is interesting. People don’t get paid. It’s part of your civic duty, not something that you are getting an income from. And we start to see a little hint that potentially, there is payment offered to Roman military forces right at the end of the fifth century BCE. And again, it’s related to the siege of Veii.

Dr Rad 1:11:31
A little hint? You’re calling Livy, talking about military pay multiple times, a little hint? Well, that’s just shows how much do you value him, Dr G!

Dr G 1:11:42
It’s a very small hint. I would not be the first historian who has a small quibble with Livy on this point.

Dr Rad 1:11:51
I know, I know.

Dr G 1:11:54
The idea that you could run a siege, which has to run regardless of the season, rain, hail, shine, you’re on siege. The idea that that would maybe necessitate or encourage some sort of monetary compensation from the elites does make some sense, because prior to having a long, protracted siege, warfare tends to be campaign season only. So do your levy in the early spring. You get out in the summer, you wrap it up before winter, because you’ve got to get home. So that whole situation in terms of like warfare being tied to the seasonal calendar might allow you to just sort of be like, it’s a citizen duty to turn up and do the fighting, and it’s like, and the weather is nice, and you’re hanging out with your bros, and you’re like, yeah, look, I’ve seen some traumatic things, but, you know, I had some fun as well.

Dr Rad 1:12:53
It’s summertime, and you know what that means?

Dr G 1:12:56
It means I’m wearing my shorty shorts and I’m on the battlefield with my bros

Dr Rad 1:13:01
Who wears short shorts? Actually, we should change that rewind, who wears short skirts?

Dr G 1:13:10
I mean, it’s beautiful out there. You know, there’s a man hanging out with men writing letters home. Dear Marcia.

Dr Rad 1:13:20
So the other thing that we definitely see throughout the fifth century BCE, not surprising, and again, something that modern listeners perhaps have greater understanding of now than they would have 10 years ago, is just how much illness can have an impact on a civilization. So we certainly see devastating outbreaks of plague. What exactly that illness is, when they say plague or pestilence, is anybody’s guess, because, of course, we have very different understandings of medical matters in the modern time period to the ancient. But certainly the way that that could really bring Rome to its knees. And that, I think, also links into other disasters, like, you know, famine, infestations of, you know, insects, anything like that. Obviously can be really devastating for these sorts of civilizations. And I think we kind of started to feel like that wasn’t the case again in very privileged countries. But Covid really showed us that that is not the case at all, that any civilization actually can be ground to a halt if the illness is serious enough, so.

Dr G 1:14:30
Yeah, and I think the thing for Rome is, the sad benefit for Rome in all of this sort of stuff is that plagues – they’re not interested in your borders. You know they will sweep through your neighbors, just as they will sweep through you. So you have a situation across the fifth century where Rome falls under the blight of some sort of plague and pestilence. But they’re not the only ones, so it’s not like their enemies. Can take advantage of the situation in any particular way, because they, too, are having a plague and all lying about being like just let it be over. I can’t live like this anymore.

Dr Rad 1:15:13
The odd time when they have tried to take advantage because they haven’t been infected, usually they end up getting infected because they got too close to the Romans, exactly. So isolation, guys, it works.

Dr G 1:15:24
I mean, if you don’t have the plague, don’t run at somebody who has the plague.

Dr Rad 1:15:28
Yes, social distancing, it’s a thing.

Dr G 1:15:31
It works, guys, it works. Follow the science.

Dr Rad 1:15:35
Yeah, and so, yeah. Basically, we’ve got the fifth century being really interesting, because it is a time of struggle. It’s a time of conflict. Rome is trying to establish itself. It certainly is a power that’s worthy of discussion at this time. You know, people are definitely taking note of it. People want to conquer it. People want to grind it into the dust under their sandaled heel. But it certainly isn’t a major power that is winning every battle. I mean, I if I thought of it at the time, we really should have kept a scoreboard of how many times Rome wins and how many times it loses, because I feel like it would come out fairly evenly.

Dr G 1:16:13
I feel like, yeah, for every victory there’s definitely a loss. And you know, they’re having this ongoing struggle with the Etruscans. The Volscians are a thorn in their sides, the Aequians and later on, the Faliscans. And they’ve got some friends as well. The Tusculans seem to be always on Rome’s side.

Dr Rad 1:16:32
Adorable Tusculans, yes.

Dr G 1:16:34
Rome has made some friends. The Hernicians are their friends, which is cute, but yeah, it’s it’s it’s bonkers out there. And they are not a regional leader at all. They’re one of many competing for the same resources in the same very nice part of Central Italy.

Dr Rad 1:16:54
Yeah. And I like to say thank you to everybody who’s been with us throughout this past century and before, if you were with us for the Regal period as well, and also the period before that, when we were doing things much more randomly, kind of like the Romans. See, order develops with time.

Dr G 1:17:09
Order from chaos.

Dr Rad 1:17:12
That’s right, that’s how it happens. Now I should say, I know that I’ve been a little bit present just today, and I often am a bit presentist in the way that we talk about things, but I think that the reason why I like history so much Dr G is that by thinking through the experiences that the Romans had and the experiences that I’ve had myself, it actually kind of helps me to understand their scenario, even though I know it’s not the same. I know you can’t translate my life and put it into ancient Rome by any means, but in terms of the basic emotions that they were feeling, or the very, very broad experiences, I just feel like it gives me more empathy for what people were going through back then, and I also feel like it helps me to process what I’m going through right now as a person living on this planet.

Dr G 1:17:57
Yeah, and I think there’s a huge value to doing history as a way of understanding the self and for seeing certain parallels. Obviously, nothing is a one to one parallel. Everything is vastly different in all of its manifestations through time. But there are ways in which we can see the way that the Romans are sort of navigating their definition of self through the way the historians write about it much later.

Dr Rad 1:18:23
Absolutely, yeah, they’re doing the same thing, yeah.

Dr G 1:18:26
And that process of coming to grips with the past as a way of coming to grips with yourself, I think, is one of the great pleasures of history. So any point in time in which you do history and practice history, the outcome will always be a little bit different, and that is because your present is always a little bit different from the present of somebody else. So yeah, returning to these things over time, you start to learn more about yourself, more about your own society, and it raises questions, not just about the past, but also about the here and now, which I think is fascinating.

Dr Rad 1:19:00
Exactly. It makes it intelligible. I think history is at the end of a just good to think with. And there is no doubt in my mind that if I were plunked by a DeLorean, of course, into the fifth century BCE, I would probably die within a week, because I don’t have the skills necessary. But if I think about the sorts of issues that the Romans are talking about and wrestling with, you know, those sort of core conversations and questions about power and how a society should function, and what our responsibility to each other is if we’re living in form of society, I mean, it’s all very understandable all of a sudden, even though I’m like, wow, your life is so foreign, I can be like, wow, actually, we’re not that different.

Dr G 1:19:46
So true.

Dr Rad 1:19:48
So Dr, G, it’s been such a delight spending so much time in the fifth century. BCE, with you, and I cannot wait to see what a new century has in store for us.

Dr G 1:19:57
Did we just spend nearly a decade in the fifth century BCE?

Dr Rad 1:20:02
I think we did. We’re gonna have to live really long lives. Quick, take that magic potion!

Dr G 1:20:08
I’m very excited to start exploring the fourth century BCE, with you, Dr Rad, and I look forward to the next time we chat.

Dr Rad 1:20:15
Absolutely, we’re certainly not gonna run out of material!

Dr G 1:20:18
Oh, no!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We are in shock that it has taken us this long to cover the cult classic that is Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979). We have Rslaugesen over on Patreon to thank for pointing out this glaring oversight.

Special Episode – Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979)

Once we got started, it was hard for us to stop talking about the Life of Brian. British comedy was a staple of our childhoods and Monty Python was one of our favourites. It was a treat to follow the development of this movie from Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory to a Sliding Doors-style story of Brian Cohen, born in the manger over from Christ.   

A still from Life of Brian showing Brian’s followers admiring his sandal, one of the sacred objects he unwittingly bestows upon them. Courtesy of FM Cinema.

Whilst Monty Python were probably trying to make a parody of 1970s Britain rather than a historically accurate portrait of first century CE Judea, we still found this film intriguing. From wolf’s nipples to imperialism, we take you through all the best Roman scenes… and perhaps a few non-Roman scenes as well. Who can resist talking about the Virgin Mandy?

Part of the appeal of Life of Brian is the fact that it is not afraid to make fun of the Romans (or anyone) and shows a much less glamorous side of the empire. Quite the contrast to the epics of the 1950s and 1960s.

Things to Look Out For:

Comedies don’t always stand the test of time. We can spot some awkward moments in the film, but overall, we think Life of Brian stands the test of time. Forty-five years after it’s release, we would love to know whether you agree!

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad and

Dr G 0:33
I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Hello and welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:07
and I am. Dr G, we are thrilled to be here.

Dr Rad 1:12
We are because today we are returning once more to my home, away from homes, Hollywood. Well, not really, Hollywood, actually,

Dr G 1:21
really, do you do you holiday in Hollywood? Actually,

Dr Rad 1:24
No I hate Hollywood, but we are returning to Rome at the movies, which is my safe space.

Dr G 1:32
I do like this space as well, and over the years, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from you and your expertise in this area. So I’m super excited for this episode.

Dr Rad 1:42
It is very kind of you to say, especially because I cannot understand Latin

Dr G 1:48
comes and goes.

Dr Rad 1:51
All right, so Dr, G, today we are actually looking at a British version of Rome on screen, and that is Monty Python’s Life of Brian, and I cannot believe we have not talked about it until this point.

Dr G 2:08
I know this is very exciting, and this has come about because of a Patreon request, which I think is excellent as well. Interested in the depiction of Rome on screen in what is essentially a satire of the period, but also the broader question of, what has Rome ever done for the provinces? I

Dr Rad 2:29
make so many Monty Python puns, it is actually insulting that we haven’t talked about these films at all. I mean, look, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna set the scene personally a little bit here. Dr, G, so. Dr G, you and I are Australian. Oh, God. Now because we’re Australians of a certain age, I don’t know about you, but I grew up watching a lot of British television. I think these days British culture is maybe less of a thing for anyone growing up in Australia. And obviously a lot of Australians don’t grow up here. And even even for our age group, it was probably because of my background being like Anglo background as well. That’s why I was watching that kind of stuff. But it was also because they were like four television channels, and I feel like the British influence was fairly strong, along with American influence and that sort of thing. I certainly watched American TV as well, but there were a lot of reruns on television that you would watch after school, and so I watched a lot of 50s, 60s, 70s television as a child born somewhere in the 80s, I won’t tell you where. I don’t know, is it the same for you?

Dr G 3:42
Yeah, by and large. So my father is English, so I think that has stronger,

Dr Rad 3:48
yeah, the force is strong with this one.

Dr G 3:51
Ah the imperialism. But this meant that there was a preference for British shows when I was a child, growing up in our household over American TV programming, yeah? So there tended to be rules around what you could watch that came out of America, whereas for English things and British things, it was much more sort of open slather, yeah, and the family was happy to oblige if you wanted to watch some Monty Python, yeah. And

Dr Rad 4:18
look, I think there’s something to be said for still to this day, there’s a certain brand to Australian humor that I think will always have a bit of a legacy in the British connection, in the sense that, if I think about the sort of reruns I would watch from America, they were very much like, Oh, darling. Did you get sauce on your tie again? Canned laughter. Whereas the British shows that I tended to watch growing up were, I think, a little bit more tongue in cheek, more absurdist,

Dr G 4:47
yeah, less canned laughter. It was really just waiting for you to laugh, and you got to choose when,

Dr Rad 4:54
yeah. So that’s my personal background. So I think that’s why Monty Python was very much a part of. Of my upbringing, along with other things that I consider to be classics like Black Adder. Ah,

Dr G 5:06
yes, another a love story. Yes, exactly

Dr Rad 5:08
like Black Adder, Are You Being Served Dad’s Army? I mean, the list goes on and on and on.

Dr G 5:15
And look, I was a great fan of red dwarf as well. I

Dr Rad 5:19
see I never actually watched that one anyway. I definitely was aware of it, even though I didn’t watch it myself. So yeah,

Dr G 5:27
yeah, there is a tendency in British humor from these periods to lean into class critique, which might be somewhere to start with. This film

Dr Rad 5:38
might be relevant indeed. All right, so let’s maybe start, I thought, with a basic overview of what this film is even about. And warning to you all, this will contain spoilers, but you’ve had decades to see in the film, because it came out before I was born.

Dr G 5:52
It came out in 1979 so we’re definitely younger than that.

Dr Rad 5:56
And look, there is a very quick way to sum up the basic premise of this film. So it is a film about Brian Cohen, a young man who happens to be born in the manger over from Jesus, and from there on, kind of lives a somewhat parallel life to Jesus Christ, in that he lives in the same area, in the same hood. This is the sliding doors of Jesus. It is, it is the sliding doors of Jesus. And so we basically follow the life story of Brian Cohen and see what happens in the time period in which he’s living, which is around, you know, somewhere in the 30s, CE, because it is in the year of our Lord, obviously. And so it kind of starts with the Nativity and goes through to Brian’s death in his sort of mid 30s, which is obviously around the same age that Jesus presumably was, if we take those dates to be accurate.

Dr G 6:50
Well, there’s some reasonable historical evidence for a man called Jesus, there is in this time period, and we’re in your favorite Imperial time period as well. This is Tiberius. I know time to shine. I

Dr Rad 7:02
know. I know not many people I think know that Tiberius was the emperor in charge when Jesus Christ was

Dr G 7:08
crucified. I think more people would dislike Tiberius if they knew that well. I

Dr Rad 7:12
mean, look, I’m gonna say something controversial here, but to be honest, I don’t think he was deeply involved with what was happening. I think that’s kind of part of the problem.

Dr G 7:21
Look, the man at the top of the pile who’s ostensibly in charge of everything, says it’s not his responsibility. He doesn’t hold the hose.

Dr Rad 7:28
Well, look, I’m just gonna say there are a lot of people that were crucified underneath Roman imperial rule, and even before the Empire existed, and Jesus is just one of them. In my book, controversy, but that’s because I should say I am not a Christian, so

Dr G 7:48
neither am I, although I think this film is quite respectful of religion, a lot of people agreed consider it to be blasphemous and to be a film that is heretical in nature, but they generally don’t touch the story of Jesus at all. In this film, it is very much focused on Brian and his adventures, yeah, and, but I just think is more to do with fanaticism. And, yeah, how people get into sort of cults of belief,

Dr Rad 8:16
exactly? And I just said, I should say, as my own personal perspective, I’m not a Christian. So I’m not coming at this subject with any particular reverence. I know of Jesus because of obviously being raised in a at the time, largely Christian country, and also because the culture around me when I was growing up was largely Christian. And also because, you know Rome, you know the more that you study Rome, the more you come into contact with it. But I wouldn’t identify wouldn’t

Dr G 8:43
identify as a Christian. The deeper get into Roman history, the more you get into early Christianity. That

Dr Rad 8:47
is true Exactly, exactly, anyway. So to give a bit of background to people who might be less familiar with Monty Python, I thought maybe we could give a little bit of a pitted history of Monty Python. So Monty Python are a beloved to most people. I think comedy troupe and they kind of came about in British society. I think a really interesting time, you know, as like the landscape, I think was changing in terms of cultural values, cultural criticism and comedy and that sort of thing. But they’re actually very highly educated men. You know, a lot of them came from degrees at Oxford and Cambridge, where they were studying things like medicine, law and, of course, history. And while they were there, though, they got involved in comedy. Obviously, those particular universities are known to have pretty legendary comedy groups like the footlights, and they ended up getting involved in writing and performing the various comedy shows that were seen as being kind of at the forefront of comedy at the time, like being quite cutting edge. So, for example, Do Not Adjust Your Set, The Frost Report. And at last, The 1948 show. And these were all kind of, a lot of them were kind of sketch shows, and that sort of. Where they were working on things for the BBC. They ended up teaming together because they had encountered each other either at university or they met each other working on these sorts of shows. And they came together as Monty Python’s Flying Circus, where they produced a television show for the BBC between the years of 1969 and 1974 and the men involved, of course, being Graham Chapman, Terry Jones, Terry Gilliam, Eric Idle, John Cleese and Michael Palin. And something to note, perhaps, is that I don’t believe that Monty Python’s Flying Circus as a show was actually screened in the USA until 1974 so it kind of be started to be shown in sort of the mid 70s across the pond as this

Dr G 10:45
interesting. Okay, so they get a late start into the US. Yeah,

Dr Rad 10:49
a little bit of a later start. Yeah, exactly. And they always, I think, therefore, appealed to people who were because of their style of comedy, which was really as it came out of a lot of a lot of these shows, and also was influenced by people like Spike Milligan and his brand of comedy. But it was different in the way that they would set up a sketch. It didn’t have to have a punch line. It was it was absurdist, as you said before, that was kind of their sense of humor. It was very much satire of British society and particularly the British class system, that’s a lot of what their sketches sort of focused on, and that sort of thing when they were making the television show. And so as a result, I suppose, given that they’re coming about, sort of like the late 60s, early 70s as a group, I think we can kind of see how that’s obviously a key time in society where we know that there are people who are starting to be more questioning and critical of the status quo,

Dr G 11:47
and this is the post war generation that are now hitting adulthood, and they’ve got some hard questions to ask about the society that has been built around them in that landscape and as a consequence of those war the 20th century. So,

Dr Rad 12:02
yeah, exactly. So Monty Python as a group started to transition away from television and into making motion pictures together. I don’t think they ever had like necessarily the hugest audience when they were on TV, but they certainly had a very decent sized audience, and they were tending to be more like appealing to like intellectual people or people with a slight intellectual bent, because their comedy is very clever, to be honest. They’ve actually been criticized for, I think, bringing a little bit too much of their sort of university level of education to their types of sketches. But anyway, so they started making movies, so perhaps the biggest hit that most people would have heard of before Life of Brian is, of course, Monty Python and the search for the Holy Grail, a classic. Indeed it is. But a lot of their films still reflected their background in sketch comedy. And the interesting thing about Monty Python, I always thought is that when I watched them as a younger person, I kind of always thought that they were very clever people who were getting together and riffing, you know, and that’s kind of how their stuff came about. But actually, because they were all highly experienced writer performers, and they had that background before they even got together, but then obviously together, they sort of brought that stuff from their background. They actually were extremely, I think, methodical in that they tended to really write things and rehearse them, and it was all very carefully planned so that obviously the humor and the joke that they were aiming for would sort of come through in the final product. So I think they sort of give the impression sometimes that they were improvising, but actually it was all quite planned out, yes.

Dr G 13:40
And I think if you watch, go back and watch Monty Python’s Flying Circus, it is very, I would say today, hit and miss, oh yeah, at the time was uniquely constructed, yes, for things that were emerging in that time period, the idea that they didn’t really care about plot. For instance, no Life of Brian is considered the first film that they do which is plot driven, because while holy grail comes out a few years earlier, and it does have something of a plot, there is also insertions of random sketches and chaotic bits and pieces. So there is a sequence that leads you to understand a plot, but Life of Brian is scripted and does seem to have a very clear narrative arc. Yes,

Dr Rad 14:29
absolutely and but even so, I think, I think that reflects something in their style of writing. So because they were all writer performers, Terry Gilliam, obviously, is more known as he was a performer, obviously, with the group, and he did contribute, but he more contributed, I think, in terms of his animations, which are obviously a huge part of Monty Python’s esthetic. But, yeah, but most of the rest of them, they are writer performers, and I think that the way that they would approach things is that they would go away and just write. You know, they would go. And write. And they tended to sometimes, I think even split off into particular grouping within the wider troupe. Like, I think Graham Chapman and John Cleese worked quite closely together a lot of the time. And I think think Terry Jones and Michael Palin might have worked together a lot of the time, but nonetheless, they would sort of go away and write bits and pieces and then start to come back and sort of compare notes and bring it together. So you can kind of see how, even when they’re writing a narrative film, I think it still kind of starts with, like sketches and scenes that they can use as a basis of something, and then bring it together. Yeah, so Life of Brian, it is universally, I think, accepted. Had it through in this moment where they were asked, after Holy Grail, what was going to be their next project? And they replied, Jesus Christ, lust for glory, which was a pun based on a film that had come out in 1970 pattern, lust for glory. But it did obviously germinate. Yeah, there was the seed

Dr G 15:56
had been planted. One facetious remark, I believe, by Eric Idle, yes, exactly. Then gets expanded into like, oh, maybe we should consider an angle on the life of Jesus and the sorts of things that might be up for critique and lampooning here,

Dr Rad 16:14
yes, exactly. And they actually went away and did their research. And when they did their research, they found that Jesus Christ is actually not terribly funny.

Dr G 16:24
This is a very serious subject matter and not one to be laughed at. Because, actually, as far as I understand it, they came to the conclusion that the message that Jesus is offering is genuinely a good one, yeah, and there’s not much to be laughed at. There, no,

Dr Rad 16:38
no, exactly. And so because they didn’t find that Jesus himself or his message was necessarily anything to be laughed at. They started playing around with ideas of what was happening around him that we could possibly work with. And they had a few ideas. I believe one of them was having a 13th disciple, and Brian would be that particular character who was always the one who unlucky, yeah, he was always the one that missed the miracle. So they played around with that idea, but eventually they decided on the idea of having a parallel life set up for their particular narrative. Thus Brian Cohen was born, and I think the idea as well was that they found, as you said earlier, the way that people engage with religion, particularly the way that people were engaging with various cults at this time, was what was funny, not necessarily like it was easy enough to make fun at people who, you know, take things too far or take things too seriously, rather than the person that the religion is based around. So it’s more the Messiah fervor that they decided to make fun of.

Dr G 17:44
Yeah, yeah. So that real interest in that there, there is some sort of Savior figure that they can be identified, and then, once identified, must be followed, yes, and how you go about demonstrating your loyalty to a messiah. All of this is up for a little bit of a joke in this film. Yes, exactly.

Dr Rad 18:02
So they were able to use the sets from a TV show that had been filmed by Franco zifarelli on Jesus of Nazareth as the basis for their sets, because that’s convenient. That saves money. Yeah, and they decided to film in Tunisia. Legendarily, they were going to be making this film with EMI, but EMI decided that it was way too

Dr G 18:24
blasphemous. Do not want to get in trouble with Christians. Exactly.

Dr Rad 18:29
Basically, there was, like a Roman Catholic friend of like the chief executive, a guy called Lord Bernard del font, yeah, who said this is way too close to blasphemy, or indeed, is blasphemy, and so EMI pulled the financing because Eric idol and George Harrison, yes, that George Harrison were friends. George Harrison helped them to get financing, as well as putting up a million pounds himself. I

Dr G 18:55
kind of love that, like one of the Beatles is involved and is crucial to the story of this film. I love that exactly.

Dr Rad 19:01
And ended up making a small cameo as the owner of the mount in the film. And he did that just because he was a fan of Monty Python, and he just kind of wanted to see what they did with his particular story. And so that’s how they ended up being able to go off to Tunisia and film this particular movie, which happened, I think it was written very quickly. I think it was filmed quite quickly. And this is because, again, as I said to you, like the way that Monty Python do things they do, I think actually plan things out far more than people might realize. As a result, a lot of their stuff was put together relatively quickly for a movie. But

Dr G 19:35
yes, yeah, I think there was a couple of years there of preparation and definitely some delays when EMI pulled out absolutely and then they got back on track after George Harrison got involved. And then

Dr Rad 19:46
so the film is obviously set in the province of Judea, a province of the Roman Empire at this point in time. And obviously it’s meant to be around the 30s, where most of the action takes place, or it. It for the manger nativity scene, obviously, where Brian and Jesus have won right at the beginning.

Dr G 20:06
I mean, it’s still in the same area and still kind of under Roman control at that time as well, although probably the client King Herod is in charge around

Dr Rad 20:16
that time, I was gonna say it’s a bit of historical setting for you all. So Herod, the great, was in charge of Judea. Well, sorry, was in charge of a whole region until about four BCE, which is when he died, which obviously would be around the time that Jesus were born, or maybe a few years before. The Dating is obviously a bit speculative. And Augustus had been in charge at that point in time, and he ended up splitting the kingdom of Herod, the great between his sons. So Herod Antipas was set up in Galilee as the tetrarch, and he would be there until around 39 CE. So just after the events that we’re focusing on transpired, Philip was set up as the Tetrarch of Golan Heights until around 3040, and Herod Archelaus was the leader of Judea at around, well at first, but see, the thing was, I believe that he became a bit of a problematic leader and was removed. And this is, this is what kind of started to stir up trouble in this region, like his removal and the rival factions that existed within Judea at this point in time, which weren’t actually initially, necessarily hugely anti Roman, which is kind of the impression you might get from watching Life of Brian. There certainly were anti Roman groups by the time. But you know, as you, as you travel through, but really the around the time of Jesus, I’m not sure how many anti Roman groups there were. I think there was a lot of more factional, regional fighting going on and rivalry. I

Dr G 21:50
think you’ve got a lot to think about when you get to the fallout of Herod, the great so a client King inserted by Rome in order to ensure stability that is a product of the Roman education system, so coming into an area of which he is local too. And so this is something that the Romans tended to do quite a lot, is that they take families of high significance, politically as hostages, then raise their children in Rome and then send them back out to rule as a friend of Rome in their place. And so trying to secure regions like this, from a Roman perspective, was all about, well, how can we make the local politics work in our favor? Absolutely, yeah. And so I think there is a sense underlying that kind of activity, which suggests that Rome understood that this was a little bit far out of their reach, that they needed somebody on the ground to do Roman work in a Roman way that wouldn’t be completely offensive to the local people, and understood the local cultural norms and things like that. So when we think about this region, and I feel like it stands out for me really pertinently in this time period when we’re recording, having seen what is happening in Palestine and what is happening with modern Israel, and the horrific amount of death that is going on there that these complexities have a very, very long history, absolutely,

Dr Rad 23:25
yeah, yeah, because Judea is roughly modern Israel, Palestine together, like roughly, roughly, yeah, yeah.

Dr G 23:33
It doesn’t map on exactly, but this whole area has a very long history of complex relationships and also a sense in which who has a priority over areas of land exactly. And when you split something like a client Kingdom amongst it was supposed to be four sons, that’s why we’re calling them tetrarchs, but one of them ends up having half of the region. Yeah, that’s a bit of a problem already. And he’s the problematic one that gets removed, right? And then you have to bring in, then Rome’s like, Okay, well, we’ll send in some real we’ll send in Romans. Yes, you know, we’ll have a visual Roman presence in this region of the province of Judea. We’ll turn it into a province. It’s no longer a client king. You guys cannot look after yourselves. We’ve got too much at stake in this area. Yeah, we want to have control of it. We’ll send our own people. And so by the time we get to the really key parts of the narrative that are the Life of Brian, we’re dealing with Pontius Pilate.

Dr Rad 24:38
We are better known to everybody who’s seen Jesus Christ Superstar as Pontius Pilate.

Dr G 24:44
Pontius Pilate, well, I like calling him Pontius Pilate as well, because it makes me think of airplanes. But the Latin is Pontius Pilate, yes.

Dr Rad 24:55
And he was a prefect of Judea from around 26 CE to. Be 36 CE.

Dr G 25:01
So he sees all of the key political things that are going to make the Christians very mad, like

Dr Rad 25:08
there for it all. So he is there underneath, as you said, the Anthro Tiberius is,

Dr G 25:15
keep that in mind, everybody Tiberius was in charge,

Dr Rad 25:20
not gonna deny it good. Now, of course, the background of all of this is that there’s also a very powerful high priest who’s also important to this Jesus story, who’s in power from around 18 CE to 37 CE, and that is Caiaphas. So Caiaphas is someone who will have contact with Pilate as a man on the ground who Pilate will consult when making decisions. And it’s between these two guys that we see the Jesus story unfolding, really, in the sense that Jesus is obviously arrested, he is tried before Caiaphas, and this is something that’s recorded in all four of the Gospel accounts and the Sanhedrin, which is the Jewish religious council Jesus, is given over to the Roman powers by the high priests and their council. And it is the Romans who decide to crucify Jesus Christ, and that’s kind of the background to what is happening. Yeah.

Dr G 26:24
So in this background, what we can see already is that there is complex interrelationships between the political and the religious. And yeah, I think there is a tendency, from a Western perspective, to separate out state and church. Yeah, people like to do that. It is a fallacy. It doesn’t matter where you live. Those things are very entwined. So think about where you live and how the politics operates, and how spiritual beliefs actually have a great deal of influence on how those political actions and beliefs get

Dr Rad 26:58
Yeah, because I believe that Pilate actually gave Jesus to Herod, Antipas and and this particular Herod was like, no, no, I’m

Dr G 27:04
not doing anything about

Dr Rad 27:06
that you deserve.

Dr G 27:08
I don’t want to get involved. Yeah,

Dr Rad 27:10
and Pilate. Therefore, Pilate was like, Okay, fine, crucifixion, it is so, yeah, it is interesting to sort of look at, like the very high level involvement of church and state, as you say, like the Jewish powers in the region in a political sense, Jewish power in the region in a religious sense, and also the Roman powers in the region to this whole thing that’s happening. And

Dr G 27:29
the Romans, For all of their vaunted pragmatism, are a highly religious people themselves. So it’s not like they’re above any of that, no. And it’s just trying to figure out, from their perspective, how can they get the best leverage on a population that they’re seeking to control for their own ends? Yes. So I mean, in short, the answer to the question, What have the Romans ever done for people in the provinces? The answer is,

Dr Rad 27:54
not much. Ouch.

Speaker 1 27:56
It’s it’s devastating, and it is a process of sort of cultural wiping out over time. Yeah, it is imperialism in its very core form. Life of Brian. Definitely engage with that in really interesting ways. So, but

Dr Rad 28:11
before we get into that fully, I guess we have to obviously acknowledge that it is intended to be a satire. I have as a film scholar, I therefore have questions about, obviously, what do you do with something that’s not necessarily trying to be historically accurate, but is set in a historical period? Because, quite frankly, the men involved enjoy dressing up in costume.

Dr G 28:32
Well, you know, they saw an opportunity, and they really took it, yeah, but as

Dr Rad 28:36
you said before, I think this is where we obviously have to acknowledge like their goal is, obviously to produce a comedy that is what they are. They are a comedy troupe. And I kind of think that comedy is obviously one of those mediums that is naturally going to be taking risks, perhaps more than other formats, even tragedy. I think comedy kind of takes risk, and I think it also does, to a certain extent, obviously reflect the time in which it is made, because obviously people are going to find things funny that are relevant to their to their lives. I think kind of the genius of Monty Python is that some of their stuff has stood the test of time and that we still find it really funny. And I will go out and say, right now, I’m a huge fan of life for Brian, I think it is hysterical, in spite of the fact that I can obviously see there are certain things that may not have dated as well as others, but I still think overall, it’s a really funny film. But of course, like any movie, it reflects the time in which it was made and what was considered funny then. And also, I suppose what even is what was considered cutting edge back then. You can, you can see it, obviously, but that’s something I think is true of any film, yes, and

Dr G 29:39
I think you’re totally correct in terms of thinking about like context is so relevant. So there are some jokes in this film that would not fly today, I would think. And there are some moments that I think in hindsight if, for instance, John Cleese knew i. The future when he was making this film. Some of the some of the lines that he’s given in this script that he reproduces, I think, are really they’re foreshadowing of certain things that we see later in his life, and that, I think is quite interesting as well. I’m going to leave that a complete mystery. I’m not going to go.

Dr Rad 30:18
Are you going to tell me what these moments are. Well,

Dr G 30:22
look, let me see how I feel later on, we can return to that subject. So I don’t know about you, but I’ve gone through this film, and I’ve sort of gone chronologically, looking at ways that Romans and Rome is kind of represented, and thinking about what could that mean, and not thinking about necessarily the humor of it, because I don’t know that I, I am not worthy to comment on the humor of the film. And clearly they’re doing something which is ahistorical and a make believe fictional story set in a historical time period which obviously has all sorts of potential issues associated with it. So anything you might say could be dismissed. Yeah, look absolutely. But I have things to say nonetheless. I’m

Dr Rad 31:04
very happy to move in that direction. But before you start, I feel like there’s some filmy stuff that I’m going to use for additional context. So we’ve had some context now about Monty, Python, the group, I think we obviously have the context of the satirical nature of the film. And as you said, the satire is not even necessarily of life in the 30 CE in Judea, Monty, Python, in all of their historical films, and also in their TV show. As we said, it’s about British society at the time. So basically, they are plucking British characters out of the 1970s and plunking them in 30 CE. And you can see this in many, many ways, because that’s basically what all of their characters are. And these are some of my favorite moments, which I’m just going to mention in terms of examples. So you’ve got the liberal bureaucrat in Michael Palin, who’s organizing the crucifixion. Crucifixion, yes, one crossmeres down to the left.

Dr G 31:58
Next. Good, yeah, good, good. That

Dr Rad 32:02
is absolutely one of my most favorite moments in the entire film. You’ve also, of course, got the working class often represented in characters played by Eric Idle. They’re sort of cheeky, pulling everyone’s leg every moment. Oh, and also, again, one of my other favorite aspects is the way that Monty Python makes fun of the working class trade unions in the People’s Front of Judea, as well as the Judeans Popular Front and all those sorts of groups, as well as the style of bureaucrat that you see in like John Cleese’s high priest at the stoning, all of that kind of stuff. As well as the women. Obviously, they’re not huge characters, but they are there as well. And also, of course, in scenes like Sermon on the Mount, you can see it. I’m sure we’ll get into that in a bit of into that in a bit of detail, but in terms of the film context. So one thing I wanted to highlight in particular, because it’s not something that people from outside of Britain or British Dominions might be aware of, is that there is in British comedy a really strong tradition of drag, yes, yeah, as a style of comedy, which people might not be aware of. So I guess I flag that drag has a really big part in British music hall comedy, and that’s gonna say it’s a staple of pantomime. Yes, it’s still exactly and to this day it still is a really big thing. So that’s just something to be aware of in terms of where Monty Python is coming from in the way that they do their comedy and the way that they often have men obviously dressing up as women rather than getting women to play those particular parts. But in terms of feel more generally, I’m sure that anyone who’s listening to this podcast is aware of this. But just in case you’re not, here it goes. Obviously, by the time we get to 1979 when Life of Brian comes out, the golden age of epics has peaked and gone. But those films, I think, are still very much there in that people of that time period, like in the 1970s would be familiar with the big blockbusters of the 1950s in particular few in the early 60s. So for example, your Quo Vadis, you’re Ben Hur those sorts of big biblical epics. And Monty Python was certainly very aware of those films. And so I think there’s sometimes deliberately playing on or playing up to those biblical epics. I know that Terry Jones in particular, like basically sat in a room for a while and re watched a lot of those sorts of movies. And you can see that right from the get go in, that the nativity scene is definitely very similar to the nativity scene that you see in Ben Hur even the way that Terry Gilliam has illustrated the credits. It’s obviously a play on the types of credits that you get in even Spartacus, which is obviously like a weird kind of it’s not a biblical epic, but there are those weird Christian elements to it, as well as some of the other big blockbusters of the time, like Ben Hur and King of Kings. So you can definitely see them playing with that. And even the idea of having someone in this time period leading a parallel life to Jesus is obviously very famous from other movies like Ben Hur. That’s literally what Judah Ben Hur is often up to. You know he’s what I know he’s. His life is intersecting with the Christ as he goes. As we get out of the 1960s though, we’ve obviously seen like the collapse of the studio system in America, and we start to see slightly more irreverent films coming out about Ancient Rome in general. So you have in 1966 movies like A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. And as we move into the 1970s because the studio system has been truly dismantled by then, there is this brief period where you get a lot of, I suppose, what we would call more realistic films, like the audience wanting to see things that aren’t maybe so stage managed and escapist in nature, things that are more gritty, more about real life and real problems and that sort of thing. So you can obviously think of these are American examples, but you can think of movies like, you know, the godfather and Midnight Cowboy, Easy Rider, films that are more reflective, I suppose, of 60s and 70s culture in multiple facets, films that are dealing more with issues like race. Again, I am thinking of America here, but the influence, obviously, is out there that that’s the way film is going, as a sort of context for Life of Brian, gritty realism, yeah. Anyway, just that, I’d sort of say that the other thing that we can obviously see that’s very much influencing this film, in the credits, anyway, is James Bond, Brian. His name is Brian.

Dr G 36:22
Yeah. I thought it was a great Shirley Bassey. Impression

Dr Rad 36:24
it is. I actually thought, I actually checked, because I was like, Oh, my god, is this Shirley? I

Dr G 36:28
don’t think it is. It wasn’t, no, it

Dr Rad 36:29
was like, some 16 year old. Oh,

Dr G 36:31
wow, yeah, yeah, no, but I picked up that reference straight away. I was like, Oh yes, I see where this is going. But I do like starting with the opening credits. Yeah, there’s a few things that I quite enjoyed about them, in terms of nods to Rome. Some of them are the Christian references. So we get the giant head of Constantine, which is smashing through everything. He won’t be alive for another few 100 years. So he is out of place. Good for him, though, we also see the Mouth of Truth, the bocca della Verita, yeah. Okay, you know, just like an odd, quirky thing. And the original purpose of that piece is unclear, and so it’s set up in Rome, and most famously in Roman Holiday. I

Dr Rad 37:22
was gonna say, I think I can tell you what the purpose is. The purpose is to have a delightful moment between Audrey Hepburn and Gregory Peck in a reality comedy,

Dr G 37:31
Roman Holiday. Everybody, but that popularity of that particular stone, which we think might be the head of Neptune, maybe, but it has the open mouth, and it looks a bit like a theatrical mask as well. So the identification is not at all clear, and people line up to stick their hand in the thing and whatnot. And we think it might be related to the Temple of Hercules, which is across the way. Okay, yeah, just across the square. But the fact that it’s there, I think is cute. I mean, it’s ancient, but we don’t know from when, but it’s a very visual symbol of Rome. Yes, well, so I imagine this is something that,

Dr Rad 38:07
again, particularly by this time period, because, again, Roman Holiday we came out in the middle of the 1950s

Dr G 38:12
Yeah, exactly. So this is something that, like, even if you didn’t know much about Rome, you’d never been there, you would have recognized it. Presumably you get some nods also to the Arch of Constantine as it’s going along. And

Dr Rad 38:23
I was like, wait a minute, he was the first Christian.

Dr G 38:27
And then the other part that I really enjoyed, and I’m sorry, Tiberius, but it’s the Prima Porta Augustus just whacked in there, which is on trend. That’s fine. You could easily have run into a statue like that in this period, maybe not in Judea. To me, this is,

Dr Rad 38:45
again, this is like, one of those things where I’m like, okay, yes, if we’re being super accurate a lot of these things, you’re like, anachronistic, not the right setting at all. But it doesn’t matter with Monty Python, because they are anarchic in the way that they play with things. And so I kind of feel like it’s one of those things where it’s like, well, of course,

Dr G 39:02
well, I think that’s fine actually, because one of the things that I think comes across in this, and you’ve touched on it earlier, yeah, is that because of their university education, their humor is both absurdist and for some considered too highbrow, like the references are just out of touch. You have to have already known a whole bunch of things to get them, which might be the very reason why you and I quite enjoy these kinds of films, because it’s like, they’re kind of full of little easter eggs for people who have studied history and are aware of some of this stuff. Because I’m like, I understand that these things are that are out of touch, but I also recognize them, and I’m excited to have seen them, and I know that at some point they had to decide what was going to be in there. Yeah, you don’t become an illustrator and an animator without making really clear decisions about what’s included and what’s not included, and so those choices really matter. And I love the way that this opening credit sequence sets us up really nicely for what is both. Both a historical light touch for people who get it and absolutely bonkers for people who enjoyed the Absurdism of it.

Dr Rad 40:07
Yes, yeah, and that’s the thing, like Spartacus credits are so memorable with all the bits and pieces of sculpture and statuary. I mean, it was such a big film, people who were seeing this would mostly, I think, be very familiar with that particular thing. And so, yeah, the way that they take that and then twist it, yeah.

Dr G 40:29
This leads me to, I don’t really have much to say about the nativity scene, like, it’s fine, it does its job, but I was focusing on, like, Where do I see Romans? And so then I end up at Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, I

Dr Rad 40:39
would say I love the Nativity in the way that she’s like, well, what is he there?

Dr G 40:45
They’re like, Oh no. They take back all the gifts, and she’s like,

Dr Rad 40:47
Oh, wait, yeah, and the Virgin Mandy, I enjoy it. That’s, that’s, I suppose, one of those moments. So where we I can highlight something that would be considered problematic by these standards, but wasn’t considered maybe as problematic in the day is that there is a brief moment of blackface in that particular scene. There is. It’s very brief. And obviously it’s one of those things where, knowing Monty Python, it’s one of those things where I think it’s just because they play all the characters at the time, they wouldn’t have thought about it, whereas it might be different these days, obviously, in terms of both the makeup of the group, potentially, but also in how they would handle that kind of thing. But it’s one of those things where you could easily miss it because of the way that they’ve got the three wise men, yeah,

Dr G 41:29
the way the costumes are done. Yeah, yes, there is black face. So content warning, not ideal, to be honest, I’d

Dr Rad 41:35
actually never noticed it before, because their faces are so covered up, but because I was paying more attention, I suppose this time, I suddenly realized that, of course, it’s one of the Monty Python group who’s playing the three wise men. I just I’d never even thought about it before, because my attention is always on the Virgin panty.

Dr G 41:52
So Jesus’s servant on the mount. This is like the one time in this film where we we clock Jesus, the man himself.

Dr Rad 41:58
And I will note, it’s actually very unusual to have Jesus Christ shown directly in that when you think about again films like Ben Hur, they tend to avoid it just like a shaft of sunlight, yeah, like, like a hand, or, like, you see the back of his head, or something like that. A lot of these, he’s

Dr G 42:18
like a dentist. We can’t show his face on television.

Dr Rad 42:22
Nine out of 10 dentists recommend, but I don’t, because they’re owned by a company that does on animals. It happens, but it’s unusual, although, of course, again, there was kind of like a bit of a slew of Jesus stuff that was coming out at this point in time. The biggest hit, obviously, being Jesus Christ Superstar. So superstar. So it just depends what you’re looking at, I suppose. But Jesus Christ Superstar is something that people would have seen, obviously, in the theater. Okay?

Dr G 42:50
So he does make his appearance, and he’s going to increasingly make his appearance in cultural representation from this point onwards as well. So we do get to get a glimpse of Jesus. He is saying things that he is purported to have said, so they don’t change his script. But the real focus of this whole scene is what is essentially British class, absolutely infighting at its best, where right at the back of the crowd there is some quibbling going on about what is being said and then how it’s being said, and then people starting to insult each other in various particular ways. And you can tell who’s supposed to be the upper class, and you can tell who’s supposed to be middle class, and you can tell who’s supposed to be working class from the ways in which they engage with each other. Yeah,

Dr Rad 43:39
so we’ve got Mr. And Mrs. Gregory the upper class rather, rather.

Dr G 43:45
And I think what’s great is that there’s a lot of mishearing of the of the sermon itself. Blessed are the cheese makers? Okay, we got

Dr Rad 43:53
Mr. And Mrs. Big nose, who are meant to be like the up and coming middle class and then Mr. Cheeky working class. So in the bickering, as you say, there’s the mishearing of stuff, but funnily enough, it actually highlights something which is hugely relevant to historians, which is, where did the Gospels get their material? How reliable are eyewitnesses? Yeah,

Dr G 44:13
and this is a huge challenge, because as far as we can date the Gospels. So these are the four books which are considered to be interconnected with each other and accredited to different people, but seem to have been written together. Perhaps the earliest date that people can put to them is probably about the 70s and 80s. CE.

Dr Rad 44:34
I think even, I think even 60s has been given for one of them, just one of them. I think, I think Mark from memory, which

Dr G 44:40
we’re talking Well, after, oh, yeah, like a good generation or so

Dr Rad 44:44
absolutely. And that’s the earliest, as you say, in most people, earliest that

Dr G 44:48
people were willing to accept based on the evidence. Yeah. So if you can mishear things when you’re at the venue, in the moment, I mean, just think about when you’re out and about or you. Go somewhere and you’re like, Excuse me, or you’re like, you turn to the person they say that all the time, or you’re at an event and you turn to somebody like, what did they just say? And the amount of misreporting and the mishearing that happens, generally speaking, the idea that there’s some sort of coherency to these texts is perhaps the biggest question we should have

Dr Rad 45:20
absolutely and I mean, even I’ve actually read. I was reading in preparation for this. Some people who identify as Christian, who teach this kind of material, as in, like, teach about historical Jesus and that sort of thing. And even they were saying that Life of Brian also kind of highlights one of those things, which is, how on earth were the three wise men supposed to have followed a star to figure out what tiny little manger somebody was in. There obviously are elements to these stories which don’t make like a logical sense, and that’s not necessarily what they’re obviously meant to be doing, just the same way that life of Ryan isn’t meant to be providing a super historically accurate version of Judea. What do you mean? This

Dr G 46:03
is clearly what was going on. I mean, there are Roman soldiers in attendance at this sermon. So I think for me, this was the key part of the reason why I noted down this scene at all. Yeah, because they’re standing around and they’re just sort of glancing over their shoulder and shaking their heads while the class warfare plays itself out in the background, and they only start to intervene when it comes to a physical altercation, when people start trying to punch each other, and then they’re like, Okay, break it up. But

Dr Rad 46:32
I think that the hilarious thing, of course, is we start to see, obviously, that whole idea of it’s what people make of it that’s funny in that when they think they’ve heard Blessed are the cheese makers. They say, well, obviously they don’t just mean the cheese makers. They mean manufacturers of any sort of dairy product.

Dr G 46:51
It’s not meant to be taken literally,

Dr Rad 46:52
yeah, and all the classic ones, where we get a lot of classic lines, you know? Oh, Blessed are the meek. Oh, that’s nice, because they get so little, I have such a hard time.

Dr G 47:03
From there, I jump ahead to the stoning scene, which I think might be the next scene. Anyway, it

Dr Rad 47:07
is because, of course, the virgin Mandy and Brian, they decide,

Dr G 47:11
they decide to leave the sermon of the mountain because it is getting out of hand in the background with the fights that are happening. So they decide that they’re going to attend the local stoning instead. And wouldn’t you know that there’s a whole bunch of bureaucratic rules around Stoney, and it’s really quite unfortunate, because women are forbidden to participate. And what this has led to is an underground market for fake beards so women can dress up as men and then attend stonings. And I suppose the part of the humor here, which is, in a way, quite parallel to the way that ancient humor operated as well, if we think about Greek comedy, sure is that we’ve got Monty Python, a male comedic troupe dressing up as women who are dressing up as men to attend stoning. So the layers upon layers of this kind of the drag, meta drag moments that are happening here, I

Dr Rad 48:14
think it allows the voices to be funnier, because then they can do the whole high pitched imitation of a woman. Are

Dr G 48:21
they ready with women here. Apologies. I mean, if you’re listening, I mean, we’re obviously just doing the film as we’re doing it as we analyze. So this puts me in mind of the way that ancient Greek comedy often sets up some of these things, and certainly, if we think about English traditions of comedy as well, this is very much something that Shakespeare would have lent into as well. Definitely the way in which characters try to hide their identity, by assuming the dress of another gender and then having to maybe go into hiding again, all of this kind of thing we have seen. It’s very English and in that sense, also very ancient. So I quite enjoyed that aspect of this scene. I note that there are some Roman soldiers there as well. They don’t seem to be quite as impressive as some of the other Centurions. They seem to be more low level infantry, and they just watch as the crowd eventually turns on the priest who is leading the stoning,

Dr Rad 49:25
which, and this is, I think, one of the things that I sort of lighted on as being the funny moment, because I love John Cleese’s priest. But again, the humor is so much that he is meant to be a kind of British bureaucrat slash schoolmaster type of figure in the way that he deals with the crowd, oh, there’s always one, and making sure that rules are being followed and that sort of thing. The way that he is dressed is very anachronistic. The idea of a stoning actually even taking place, is very debatable in terms of historical accuracy. It might seem like something you. SPECT in a biblical era film, but it is actually really uncertain whether such things would have been taking place in Jesus’s time. There’s like these weird references where it’s almost like they’re talking about stoning, but it’s almost like, are they saying that zonings actually happen? Or is this or are they just making a reference, because could maybe happen. It’s very unclear, but yeah, definitely highly debatable, but the fact that he is wearing something that’s so overly religious, again, kind of taps into criticisms that are made of certain Jewish groups in this society, of trying to advertise their piety, perhaps by wearing particular types of clothing. So I believe the Pharisees are sometimes critiqued by other Jewish people for overly advertising their dedication to religion and the type of clothing that they wear. So even though it’s anachronistic, it kind of potentially is highlighting that about this particular character. Yeah,

Dr G 50:55
and certainly, I think when we think about religious dress, there is a sense in the ancient world and even today, that the visual distinction is one of the ways in which you establish the authority of the Church, regardless of which church it might be. So style of dress and being visually recognizable from a distance is super important. And John Cleese is a tall man, and he’s wearing a very tall hat in this scene, which makes him even taller than he needs to be. So he definitely does stand out. So I’m

Dr Rad 51:25
guessing that your next scene that you liked was, of course, the children’s matinee.

Dr G 51:29
So in the lead up to that, though, yeah, I mean, yes, definitely the children’s matinee at the arena, which is a horrifying sort of take on, like, what is gladiatorial combat and the games of the hunt and things like that, as if they might be okay for children while people are dragging bits of meat out of the arena. But important in the lead up to this moment is the moment that Brian understands that his father is a Roman Ah,

Dr Rad 51:55
yes, okay, see, I didn’t think you’d talk about this one because there are no Roman characters present until, but till the end, it does become

Dr G 52:04
important later on, so as a Roman reference, but also like that happens in their home. So they and there is a Roman there. That’s true, yeah, they return home from the stoning and find that there is a Roman Centurion in their house. Brian’s bit put out by that, and his mom’s like, well, you know, maybe you shouldn’t be so worried about those sorts of things, because maybe your dad was a Roman so this is like an earth shattering revelation for Brian to learn that his father was a man called Nautius Maximus, and he understood understands in that moment that perhaps his life isn’t what he thought it was. It certainly calls into question, what has ever what was happening in the nativity scene with the Virgin mangy? Yes,

Dr Rad 52:54
well, even his name. I mean, I didn’t actually know this, but the last name Cohen, whilst it is quite a common name. Now, for people who have Jewish backgrounds, it actually indicates priest like, if you have the last name Cohen, your ancestors, presumably at one point, were from one of the priestly families. So it’s obviously not only a common Jewish name nowadays, which I’m sure is what they were playing on a little bit there, but it also has this connection to a very special group within that Jewish community that were setting this movie in and Brian was just chosen because, apparently that was the name that the Monty Pythons like to give to anyone who was seen as being very ordinary and kind of a bit stupid. Well,

Dr G 53:34
his character does live up to that in some respects. So he finds out his father is Nautius Maximus, and this puts him into a little bit of a tailspin. He makes a quip about his nose being Roman, and me like that. Explains

Dr Rad 53:53
I’m a Hebe, a Kike, a Red Sea pedestrian.

Dr G 53:58
And so, you know, he has this realization which frustrates him. It doesn’t really he doesn’t seem fixated beyond the fact that he’s noticed that there’s a Roman Centurion there because he wanders off because he’s now he’s got his own existential issues to deal with. But it turns out that his mother is also entertaining the Roman troops in a sexual way, perhaps, and she does make the point that they perhaps owe more to the Romans than he realizes, yeah, and he doesn’t seem to clock what that means, no, but the audience is allowed to see through that sort of veil and get a sense that this is a difficult life for her, yes, and that the Romans are part of the oppressive structures that she is navigating personally, while the province of Judea is navigating at large. Yes, absolutely. So yes, that leads us to the arena my favorite.

Dr Rad 54:53
So the subtitle children’s matinee is obviously, again, a play on something from British culture. Yeah. Dear the children’s madness that we provided pantomimes and theater and that sort of thing. I actually love this, though, because you do tend to get, I think, quite glorified, obviously, images of the arena in your more traditional epics. And this is kind of looking at, well, what happened when it was just an ordinary Saturday?

Dr G 55:21
And it’s like the arena isn’t particularly full. There are Brian’s there trying to sell some snacks, which, uh, he’s told that they’re just Roman tat.

Dr Rad 55:32
But again, even, like, even the types of things that he’s trying to sell, like the the wolf sniffles and that kind of stuff that, again, is kind of a play on the main evidence that we have of Roman food, which is typically by the elite, for the elite. So they are these ridiculous delicacies that we have preserved for us. And we, when we look at the recipe thing, we’re like, Oh my God. What you know the Romans love to think of all these new kind of delicacies, which, similarly to these days, I suppose, had to do with what was rare, what was hard to procure, and and so they did kind of eat sometimes things that we would look at as being absurd, but that would have been the very, very elite who were all caught up in this desire to impress one another. The average person would have been eating far more basic but

Dr G 56:23
I do like the idea that it’s playing into the idea of stadium culture and the sort of snacking that goes on there. But the arena is like the original Stadium in this sense. And so it makes sense that if you’re there and you’re out in the sun and you’ve been there for a few hours, you’re probably peckish, yeah, it would not be beyond imagination that nobody would be trying to sell you

Dr Rad 56:45
some just maybe not quite the fair that Brian is selling. But yeah, this

Dr G 56:49
is a super important scene for Brian, though, because it’s when he finally gets to meet the People’s Front of Judea love, and he’s already seen one of the members, at least when he was at the sermon of the mount, and because he spied Judith off in the distance, and was kind of like, and she was engaged in a very sort of intellectual conversation with another member of the group, yes,

Dr Rad 57:14
where they ridiculing my Jesus.

Dr G 57:18
And he’s seen her, he’s taking a look at her and being like, I’ve got a crow. And so it’s in this moment that he gets to meet her, because members of this group are attending the arena, mostly to criticize it and to lampoon people that they’ve exiled from their group or have defected to a different group. Spears, all of these people seem to be swilling around this idea that in order to get out from under the oppression of the Romans, they need to find a way to eliminate the powerful structures at play that are ruining the province so they can claim it back as their own.

Dr Rad 57:57
And this is the kind of thing that I like about Monty Python, because they’re making fun of every single class that they come across. So they make fun of the working class, they make fun of the middle class, they make fun of the upper class like no one is off limits because it’s really about institutions and authority that they are. That’s who they’re taking aim at really a lot of the time. So but I do, I just love their take on the trade unions. You’re like, you have to really hate the Romans to join our group, but I do,

Dr G 58:25
all right, we’re in and so this is the moment that Brian, you know, joins one of these groups, and he’s led into a new world. And this is on the back of him finding out about his own Roman heritage. So he’s running away from that in some respects, and fighting against it. And can he prove to himself, you know, how loyal he is to the local cause? Yeah, and

Dr Rad 58:50
this is, this is where we get into that interesting conversation, I suppose, about the presence of Rome in this area. So it’s hard to completely, I think, understand Jesus’s death at this distance, particularly because, as we talked about, the Gospels are written sometime after and they’ve obviously got a very particular agenda in mind. Even the Roman sources that mention Jesus Christ are again written a couple generations later, decades later. So whilst I definitely believe that there was a person who identifies as Jesus, it’s really hard to know I think exactly what was happening, but I don’t necessarily think that, as I said to before, I think it’s there’s often a lot of factionalism in this area, and there’s a lot of internal tension. And actually, I feel like it’s some time later that we get more anti Roman, more widespread anti Roman sentiment. And even then, it’s not universal and it’s not unified. I’m sort of thinking of in the sort of 60s and 70s, where we get the first udayan revolt. That’s when we tend to see really anti Roman sentiment springing up. But it’s not universal in Jesus’s lifetime. I’m not really sure. And I’m not an expert in this period, obviously, but I’m not really sure how widespread the anti. Roman sentiment would have been. It flares up a little bit under Caligula, because Caligula is a bit of a douche towards towards certain things that they hold dear. But otherwise, I’m really not, I’m not sure.

Dr G 1:00:09
I think this gets into the broader question of the history of the whole region, and so I’m not going to give too much away about something that comes up later in the film. I think we’re almost there, yeah, sure. But having thought about like we think about the layered history of this region, yes. And this area, broadly, what is now known as the Middle East, is considered, in many respects, cradle of civilization. This is where we understand agrarian culture to develop in a profound way. What about 6000 6000 7000 years ago? So this is an area that has always been populated. It has always had a multitude of societies. And this group that sits along this eastern edge of the Mediterranean are known for being traders. So the Punic peoples come from the Phoenician peoples. Yeah, the Phoenicians are just to the north of this region. But it’s not the case that the people to the south are not also traders. They are plenty of archeological evidence to suggest that there are social structures at play, that there is trading at play, that they are very involved in the broader Mediterranean community in which they sit. The Romans are just another player within this in that respect. So the idea that the Romans are necessarily terrible depends very much on how the Romans are behaving,

Dr Rad 1:01:44
and sometimes they can be behaving in ways that works for the people that live in that region.

Dr G 1:01:50
And in this time period, we are not yet at the conquest of the area by the Romans. No, we are certainly at a period of high levels of influence by Rome? Yeah, definitely. They’re doing some imperialism, for sure, sure, but they are not necessarily trying to wipe people out. No, and they do not have full control of this area, no,

Dr Rad 1:02:13
and that’s exactly it, like there’s and they’re not going to for quite some time. No, that’s what I mean. Like, I feel like there’s it. There’s more tension between various groups in this area. And I don’t just mean within Judea. I mean also more wider

Dr G 1:02:27
this whole area is, is complex already, the part of which we suffer from, I think, as historians who specialize in Rome, is that we are not Near Eastern specialists, and there are Near Eastern specialist, and we should get some of them on the show. We should talk about that region, because there is a lot going on here, and this, this film, is kind of touching on some of it. And I think maybe inadvertently, because I’m not sure how much Monty Python I know about some of I

Dr Rad 1:03:00
think they did a lot of research, but it’s the kind of material that they would have access to in the 1970s it’s obviously different scholarship, different time, and I don’t know how deep and they were influenced, definitely, I think, by more medieval things as well, like medieval passion plays as well as, obviously contemporary stuff. But even, I think, in terms of understanding this area, one of our major sources to sort of focus on relations between the people of this area and the Romans is, of course, Josephus. And Josephus is notoriously a hugely problematic source because he was someone who was captured by the Romans, or so he claims, during the first Judean revolt, and ends up becoming associated with flavians, because they are, of course, involved in the more troublesome time in Judea, with the first the destruction of the temple. Yeah, they are, and then they be, but then at around the same time that that happens, they obviously also become the next Imperial dynasty, everyone which allows them to allows them to control narrative somewhat. And Josephus is their client. He becomes like a Freedman of their family. And so his loyalties are all over the shop, all over the shop, and it’s so complex, like, it’s not to say that he’s like, Oh well, I’m I’m with the Romans. Now, he definitely doesn’t, but it’s so hard to tease out at any one moment what is going on in Josephus account of things, yeah,

Dr G 1:04:26
and his work is really important for our understanding of what is happening in this sort of Flavian period. And again, it’s that sort of thing where it’s like our sources just outside of the timeline, yes, that we’re interested in, like he does refer back to this period of history in the region totally, but it’s also the case that he wasn’t necessarily compos mentis there, no,

Dr Rad 1:04:49
and he’s also Jewish. He’s not Christian, so Jesus is going to mean something different to him. Anyways, yeah, it’s just a very, very complicated source to use. And. Yeah. Well, we

Dr G 1:05:01
love our complexities. We do. This leads us to the Latin scene.

Dr Rad 1:05:05
Okay. Now this is a scene that I laugh at whilst crying, as I have had so many, so many issues of Latin over the years.

Dr G 1:05:13
So I think one of the things that came out maybe on Twitter a few years ago, was like, you can tell the difference between a classic student and an ancient history student from their favorite from their favorite scene in Life of Brian. Yes, because the classic students will pick the Latin scene and the ancient historians will pick, well, What have the Romans ever done for us 100%

Dr Rad 1:05:33
and I am 100% true to that. The What have the Romans ever done for us is my favorite, but

Dr G 1:05:38
the Latin scene really does some special things. And I think it does some special things for classic students in particular, because it basically replicates the British education system for teaching classics to students at that time. Yes, yeah, in that moment. And so the play seems to be that Brian is put up to this moment by the People’s Front of Judea. They’re like, You got to prove your loyalty you want to be part of this group, you know, you’ve got to go and write a message on the Roman palace. Romans go home. Yeah. So Romanos

Dr Rad 1:06:12
ahaan rocks

Dr G 1:06:17
up and he’s he’s painting in big red letters. Romanes eunt domus and it’s kind of like twilight. He doesn’t realize that some Roman soldiers are marching up behind him, and they kind of watch him, and then they start correcting his grammar. They’re like, people call the Romans, They go to the house? and I was like, What are you doing? And then it goes through all of this thing where they’re trying to basically inculcate the rules, you know, like, you know, will it be accusative, you know, to place, it’s the locative, you know, blah, blah, blah, on all of these sort of like crazy grammatical terms, which you would only ever encounter if you had had to study Latin. Yes, it ends up being that they end up changing the phrase to Romani ite domum. Romans go home, and then they tell him that he has to paint it 100 times, which is one of those sort of classics of like the school system, where it’s kind of like you now have this really repetitive, boring task on your hands, and he does do it, like he takes him all night, but he Brian finishes this task. But you do get that sense that the play here is on the importance of form over everything else. This idea then gets linked to this Roman fetish for mindless punishment, which is something that runs through this whole film as well. And then as soon as Brian completes this task, it’s like there’s been a changeover of the group, and new guards show up. Don’t realize that this has been a task that has been set by the Romans to Brian. Look at what he’s written on the wall, and it’s huge, and it’s all over it, and then he has to run away very, very quickly to get himself out of trouble,

Dr Rad 1:07:58
yeah. Which I think, as you say, this perfectly highlight the educational background of the Monty Python group and the way that they would have had to study Latin because of the type of school they went to, which, again, is kind of interesting, because in the 60s, there had been a big shake up of the British education system, and there were definitely people that by the time that They, I suppose, were going through their education, there were definitely schools that were breaking with the tradition of having to learn Latin, and that was maybe seen as something a little bit old fashioned. But the Monty Python group, because the nature of their education, definitely would have had to learn Latin and learn it this way. And in fact, it wasn’t just trying to think when they would have been at university. I suspect that for a lot of them, they actually would have had to have studied Latin in order to get into the universities

Dr G 1:08:45
that they went to. So I assume so as well. And it’s pretty clear from the way that this scene is done, that they understand Latin, yes.

Dr Rad 1:08:52
And you’re like, okay, that I never will,

Dr G 1:08:56
and that they have been educated in very particular way about it. Yes, exactly. So the idea that they’re giving that experience to Roman soldiers in itself is quite funny, absolutely. Yeah, so the People’s Front of Judea, my favorite. I don’t know if you’re gonna like what I have to say about them. So these are just one of the many groups, the PJ, PFJ, as they’re known, one of the many groups seeking to liberate the area from Roman control and oppression, which

Dr Rad 1:09:27
is what I think I find so funny about it, because it taps into what I think is accurate to this period. The factionalism might not have been in this exact way, and it might not necessarily been directly anti Roman, but I think the factionalism is kind of oddly accurate.

Dr G 1:09:39
Yeah, definitely. And I think we can see this in many movements where it’s like, you can have broadly similar goals and yet be pursuing it in very different ways. Absolutely, yes. And certainly there are times and I think this happens, particularly you see it in online culture, where the discussion is around. And leftist groups being more challenging to each other than they are to tackling the cause itself. Yes, and this kind of thing can be a real hindrance to getting things done. Absolutely. The People’s Front of Judea sits in this category really quite nicely. Yeah, they spend a lot of time talking and writing notes and minutes and whatnot. They have a plan to kidnap the wife of Pontius Pilate. That’s their plan. They’re going to enter through the underground heating system the hypercoast. Good on them. I quite like that. So you know, they’re playing into like, what do we know about what the Romans had? And then we get to What have the Romans ever done for us? Now I

Dr Rad 1:10:41
think I think I know what you’re going to say about this scene. Wow, I’m

Dr G 1:10:44
going to say it, and then you can tell me whether your assumption was correct. Okay, this is the classic justification of imperialism. I

Dr Rad 1:10:51
knew you were going to say that. Yeah, you’re right. It’s not accurate to the situation in this area. It’s

Dr G 1:10:57
not accurate to the situation, and it’s hugely problematic. And what we have is the English playing the oppressed people and then selling back to them the idea that they were civilized by the arrival of their oppressors. This is British imperialism writ large in a single scene, which is ironic in its placement in this film. And I don’t know that Monty Python necessarily are aware of it. Well,

Dr Rad 1:11:29
I think they probably are now. I think the thing is that, again, this is where context, I think, is important. I think what people broadly would have thought about Rome and the Roman Empire back in that time when they were making this film, is that they would have looked at Rome as the great civilisers As much as we might question that critique it now that’s with the benefit of over 40 years of hindsight and new scholarship and also people looking into things from the point of view of the people that do live in the provinces, looking at the archeology that comes out of that area, not privileging the Roman perspective. You know, there’s a lot that has happened in the last 50 years of academia that has enabled us to look at that scene and recognize that it’s not accurate that the Romans did not invent aqueducts, that there were roads before they came, and all of that kind of stuff. What I wouldn’t like. I obviously haven’t looked into it in the sense of saying there definitively was no academia out there that could possibly have disproven this. But I do think that I know enough to say that widely speaking, I feel like the point of view would have been way more positive in terms of imperialism, and Roman imperialism in particular, but that’s, that’s the way I kind of look at it. Yeah, I

Dr G 1:12:48
think there’s an interesting parallel to be drawn between the way that British imperialism justifies itself and the way that we now have British people justifying Roman imperialism within the context of this film. So I think that’s an interesting point of note. So the things that get mentioned as benefits of what the Romans have done for us, aqueducts, roads, medicine, sanitation, irrigation, education, wine, public baths and law and order. Now, objectively speaking, all of these are incorrect. Just as a point of note, all of these things predated Rome in the area,

Dr Rad 1:13:31
and Rome was not particularly sanitized. I mean, like sure they would have, they had certain aspects of their culture which may have been more hygienic than otherwise at that time in other places. But certainly, when you think about things like the bars, I think they would have just been germ soup. I was

Dr G 1:13:49
gonna say, are you calling into question my beloved cloacker maxima, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:13:53
sure. They had certain things like the aqueducts, which they adopted. I mean this. And this is the thing about the Romans. I think the thing about the Romans I think the thing about the Romans is that a little bit like America, I suppose, oh, that parallel again, they’re very good, I think, at adopting things and then rolling them out. They adopt things and because they ended up having control over wide amounts of territory, they can organize, like mass manpower, for example, or whatever, in order to build these things or create this infrastructure. It’s not that they came up with the original idea, and it may not be that they’re the only ones doing it, but once they’re in charge, I feel like they are relatively good sometimes at rolling it out when it’s in in their interest to do so to like, have an aqueduct or have a theater? Yeah.

Dr G 1:14:41
So I mean, notably, if we’re going to give the Romans any credit in this region, and we can, I suspect it is the fact that under Herod, there was an aqueduct constructed into the port city of Caesarea, Maritima, Caesar’s maritime port. And the reason for that is that there was no access to fresh water at that location, and there was still evidence of that ancient aqueduct, which was then sort of enhanced a few generations later. So that exists. So, yes, I mean, we could say that, you know, they brought some aqueducts, yeah, but they

Dr Rad 1:15:19
didn’t. They didn’t invent aqueduct. They didn’t invent paved rows. They did not invent wine. Law and order. I certainly did not

Dr G 1:15:26
invent wine. And arguably, it’s more likely that this region invented wine and irrigation. This is

Dr Rad 1:15:35
what I mean. I think the Romans are kind of like the inheritors, in the sense that they’re bringing the infrastructure, I suppose it’s in like, the ability to act on it at that moment in time, yeah.

Dr G 1:15:45
And so I suppose this is the idea of the increasingly militaristic influence of Rome in this area, yeah. And the fact that they’ve decided to go in, and people have not yet been able to throw them out or to throw them off. We

Dr Rad 1:16:00
obviously don’t know what would have been here if the Romans weren’t here. That’s not to say that the people in this area were incapable of doing such projects without the Romans. I just think it’s the Roman army, Roman slavery. Those systems mean that you can potentially have these large scale building projects, as sad as that is,

Dr G 1:16:24
indeed. And so they the PFJ decide that they’re going to enter through the Caesar Augustus Memorial. Sewer, excellent. And I do really love the scene where we get the footage of them entering, and it’s like they come through a floor mosaic lifting up a little leaf that’s covering somebody’s private parts. The Romans wouldn’t have bothered to have a leaf there in the mosaic. They would have just left it open. So that was a cute little nod, I think as well.

Dr Rad 1:16:52
See, this is where I love the kind of non Roman stuff, in a sense. So I love the fact that they encounter rival groups and they start fighting each other rather than concentrating on the task.

Dr G 1:17:03
Oh, yeah. So, I mean, the PFJ managed to run into this rival liberation group who have happy to dance people front, yeah, who have happened to have the same plan to execute on the same evening. Absolutely hilarious. And they all managed to kill each other inside the villa, and Brian’s the last one left standing when the Roman soldiers notice that anybody has infiltrated.

Dr Rad 1:17:28
And this, of course, brings us, I suppose, to one of the most notorious scenes, which is the Pontius Pilate scene. Oh,

Dr G 1:17:35
we’re calling it that, are we? I call it the biggest sticker scene. That’s right, yeah. I really liked this scene. I feel like I have an academic paper to write, because this scene is full of frescoes.

Dr Rad 1:17:48
Ah, okay, that’s what caught your eye. See, I was, as usual, very focused on Michael Palin, who is probably my favorite of the pythons. He is very good, and this is perhaps with his loose

Dr G 1:18:01
one of his star turns in this film as the most objectionable Roman, Pontius Pilate. And so Brian, having been arrested by the Roman guards and doing a bit of a tour of the jail, gets brought before Pontius Pilate himself. And this is where, in order to try and avoid punishment, Brian reveals his half Roman identity, yes. And he’s like, Well, my father is Nautius Maximus, at which point the Roman guard is like, convinced that this is a joke name. And Pontius Pilate is like, what are you talking about? And this leads the guard to say, well, you know, it’s a, it’s a joke name, like Biggus Dickus, or, yeah, and Pontius Pilate is like, Excuse me, because Dickus is a great friend of mine. And this scene is just, it plays out for like, you know, a good while. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:18:56
it’s the accent that sells it as well, the way that Pontius Pilate has this absurd list. And of course, when we eventually meet him, bigger stickers will have an even more exaggerated speech impediment. And the lyric thing, of course, is that nobody can understand him, not even the Romans.

Dr G 1:19:12
Yeah, so people keep responding back to him as if he’s asked a different question. Which,

Dr Rad 1:19:16
Look, I get that because of someone who’s hard of hearing. I do do that sometimes, where I respond completely inappropriately, because I have 100% miss her what someone said to

Dr G 1:19:24
me, the joys of this podcast. So what is happening in the background with these frescoes is that they can be cross referenced quite distinctly to frescoes from the villa of mysteries. Oh, actually, you

Dr Rad 1:19:41
know what? I did notice that. I actually did notice it, and I totally forgot, you’re right, the red like the red, the red ones like so the red ones, the ones with the predominantly red color in the background.

Dr G 1:19:53
You know those red fresh skirts.

Dr Rad 1:19:56
But no, like it is the red color, the red background. Is what makes them so distinctive to me. And it’s

Dr G 1:20:02
not just the red background, it’s the fact that they’ve replicated key panels from that fresh Yeah. So yeah, I’ve started to go through and collate the parallels visually from the villa of mysteries for my own edification. Yeah, hi. I paused the film

Dr Rad 1:20:23
research. Hello, pot. It’s kettle here. Hi.

Dr G 1:20:29
So what I like about this is one it suggests that somebody on set knew enough. So this is like a little easter egg for people who know enough. Well, this

Dr Rad 1:20:40
would be where it would be curious for you, because I don’t know enough about the set design to know this. But as I said before, they did make use of the sets that were there for the TV series that have just been made. But I know that they what they describe the processes that they built their sets into those sets. So it would be interesting whether that was a set that already existed, or whether it was something that they, as you like, that they made their own. Yeah,

Dr G 1:21:06
yeah. So it makes me think I’m gonna have to go and watch what Zeffirellis. Yep, definitely go and have a watch. So, I mean, part of me thinks maybe not in zephyrellis, partly does seem too common, partly because the villa of mysteries is from Pompeii, so maybe doesn’t make a lot of sense, but also because of the potential time period and dating of these frescoes. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that was besides the things that are very funny about this scene, which I enjoy. It’s one of my favorites. I did get distracted with my Roman historian hat on,

Dr Rad 1:21:46
so I believe that there is a very random scene that comes after this one, which is, of course, the alien sequence. Oh,

Dr G 1:21:54
yes. Well, I didn’t include any notes on that because I was like, there were no Romans. Well, Brian

Dr Rad 1:21:59
is being pursued by the Romans, I guess in this chase sequence. Now, I’ve heard various explanations for this. So 1979 that’s around the time that Star Wars is coming out. So it’s possible that they’re referencing like, the, you know, mania for science fiction. I have heard that the pythons just didn’t know how to get Brian out of this situation where he’s like, running up a very tall building find someone working on the top of it and really can’t figure out how to get down. Instead of decided just to insert this. I also read an academic who felt that it was a play on a book and documentary which came out of Germany, and then, I think, was adapted into English, the Chariots of the Gods, showing the aliens sort of interfering with life on Earth. I’ve also heard that it’s meant to be some sort of allusion to Brian’s ascension. Oh,

Dr G 1:22:53
yes. I mean to me, that makes the most sense. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:22:56
yeah. So to be honest, there are so many explanations of what is going on in here. I have to admit, I kind of would go with the Python explanation of they just didn’t know how else to get him out of here. Well, I

Dr G 1:23:07
mean, part of me finds that hard to believe. I mean, they put him there, I guess so.

Dr Rad 1:23:11
But yeah, it could. It could have been a play, obviously, on the idea of Jesus being taken into the heavens. This is Brian’s moment to do that. And of course, it happens in a ridiculous fashion, as everything does in Brian’s life, as opposed to Jesus’s life,

Dr G 1:23:25
certainly. And I mean, the key thing for Brian, I guess, and for the film, is that he does escape set back down in a slightly different location, which allows him to get back to Matthias’ house. Now, Matthias’ house, is where the People’s Front of Judea meet, yes,

Dr Rad 1:23:44
and hides so well.

Dr G 1:23:47
And unfortunately, it seems like the guards are just close enough to Brian to spot which house he goes into, which causes all sorts of trouble.

Dr Rad 1:23:57
And there is a very tiny scene, which I do appreciate, though, when the Romans are like, storming into the house, and you see, like, 1000 Roman soldiers storm fast into this tiny, little house.

Dr G 1:24:06
Yeah. And I like, I do enjoy this sequence, because I think it gives us a sense of one how much Rome does. Rome things where you’re like, okay, just always send all of the guards all the time. And it’s like, this is how they managed to dominate everybody. It’s through this sheer numbers. Yeah, impressive numbers. Yeah. And it also seems to be a play on the classic sort of, how many clowns can you fit in a car kind of joke? Exactly. Matthias house is not that large, and there are many men running into it.

Dr Rad 1:24:40
I love it.

Dr G 1:24:41
So this leads me, from a Roman historian perspective, I suppose, straight to the crucifixion. Okay, you’re

Dr Rad 1:24:52
gonna skip right over the nude scene and the he’s just, he’s not the Messiah. He’s just a naughty boy.

Dr G 1:24:57
It’s got nothing to do with the Romans. Oh. Haha, by all means. I mean, now’s your chance.

Dr Rad 1:25:03
Obviously, that this is one of my other favorite scenes. It’s also obviously gives us one of the most well known quotes, I think, from the scene. And the thing I’ve the reason why I find it interesting, and I thought you might as well, is that it’s probably the most woman heavy, even though the women in question is, in fact, Terry Jones Indra, but it kind of did maybe think about things a bit differently here. So basically, Judith and Brian hook up at this moment in time, and we get very big full frontal nudity from both Brian and Judith in this scene. But to be honest again, this is where I feel like Monty Python and just say general measles. Saying they kind of are maybe unintentionally accurate. Number one, I kind of think the way that they’re just so at ease with being nude in like a small space in a family situation. I think that kind of is how people would have had to have been in the ancient world, you know, just more at ease with nudity, more used to bodily functions and things happening around them. I think the the dirtiness of this world, the you know, the smallness of this world, you know that like the way that the average person lives, I think is actually kind of more accurate than the gleaming marble we tend to see in a lot of Roman epics. But I do also like the way that they are, again, playing up with a character that’s probably more familiar to modern audiences, in that the way that Brian and his mother have a relationship. It does seem to be playing on the trope of maybe the Jewish mother, the way that she’s disapproving, that sort of thing which we see in modern shows like The Nanny, that line coming out of that depiction of, again, like a very modern character, but put in an ancient world, definitely.

Dr G 1:26:40
And the the way in which that this is like the the climactic point for the Messianic journey, exactly

Dr Rad 1:26:51
so funny, the way that the crowd, and this is where we see the crowd reacting in ways where the pythons are making fun of prophets springing up and preaching on corners, and the way people are responding to them, and the way that Brian’s like, just think for yourself. This is essentially the message of Life of Brian, as far as the pythons were concerned. It’s about thinking for yourself. Yeah,

Dr G 1:27:12
so to backtrack slightly, how did Brian even get here? So the Roman troops went into Matthias’ house. Brian was trying to hide, but he was hiding on a little balcony outside. That balcony eventually gave way, and he ended up standing on a strip of various other sort of wise prophets who were sort of promulgating a crowd. So it’s a bit like people are on their soapbox and people are gathering around, you know, the person who’s talking, who they think is most interesting? Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:27:40
with my favorite one of and there shall be a time where all things will be lost, and the little bits and pieces will be very hard to find. And Brian

Dr G 1:27:50
ends up in this situation. He’s knocked somebody off their plinth. Now he’s in front of a crowd, and he starts sort of making some stuff up. And there are some biblical references in there, stuff that has been attributed. And then he sort of trails off because he’s really waiting for that coast to be clear of the Romans, to be able to get back into the house and all of that. So once he sees that the moment has arrived, he just sort of trails off and doesn’t reveal anything. And it’s the mystery that is set up by him not finishing a sentence that prompts people to start to follow him, because they want to know what the message is, yes, which, when he was completing his sentences was of no real interest to any of them, but because they can’t and they don’t know what is the next thing he’s going to say, they become obsessed with him. Start following him around. Anyway, he ends up with this huge crowd around him, and when he wakes up the next morning at mum’s place with Judith, he is unprepared for how many people are outside his house. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:28:52
but the crowd scene, the interaction between Brian and the crowd and the Virgin Mandy and the crowd, is just hilarious. The whole idea of Yeah, thinking for yourselves, doing your own thing. And they’re all like, yes, we’re all individuals. I love it, and I kind of love to be as well. A bit later on, not not too long before the crucifixion scene, we also see, obviously, like the fetishizing of objects associated with Brian, the gourd and the sandal. And the way that you you see factions forming around these two different objects, which is exactly the kind of stuff you see happening in Christianity in real life. I mean, this is, you know what? Relics, 101, yeah, but, but also the idea that, like, tiny details about the faith are what cause factions to form within Christianity, and leads to a lot of bloodshed, to be honest, in the later Roman Empire, as people are fighting for their particular brand of Christianity and their particular interpretation of things, which I think is what still rings true, because obviously we still see that factionalism between Christian groups. It might not be quite as extreme, but we certainly still see different and not just Christianity. Obviously in other religions as well, there are obviously different groups which are sprung up, and we still see infighting between those groups. And that, again, is one of those things that I think is just kind of timeless, even the absurdity of the kind of ascetic that Brian accidentally knocks out of his hole, which, again, is kind of, I feel like an allusion to the Desert Fathers. I feel like there has to be an illusion. I

Dr G
feel like it must be, yeah, he gets very upset. The poor man who’s been out in the desert in his little hole for a long time keeping silent and eventually makes a sound, because Brian accidentally steps on his foot or

Dr Rad
something. But that’s exactly the kind of his vow of silence is over. Yeah. That’s exactly the kind of extreme esthetic behavior we end up seeing a bit later, I was gonna

Dr G
say they just this is a historical as far as where or where from, from a Christian perspective, certainly those sorts of figures don’t start to pop up until we’re in the depths of sort of like Christian belief on the rise.

Dr Rad
Totally. The things that they do are pretty extreme, pretty extreme, yeah, when they get to them, yeah, yes, now is not the time. No, all right, the crucifixion, the crucifixion, just one crossbears, yeah,

Dr G
well, you’ve alluded to it already. I really, I do love this, this sort of like the the empathetic bureaucrat, yeah, next crucifixion, good, out the door, line of the left one cross each next crucifixion, good, sort of plays out. And I was like, oh, there’s that sense in which you can also see the character, the bureaucrat here, sort of getting to the point where they’re kind of like, Oh no, that’s, that’s not okay. You know that has to do their job anyway, yeah, and just keeps doing their job. And this feeds in nicely to something that happens to Brian later, where he says to one of the Roman guards, as they’re putting his cross up, you don’t have to take orders. The guard immediately replies, I like orders. And I think for you, this is the moment where we also get the beautiful reference to Spartacus. Yes,

Dr Rad
absolutely, yes.

Dr G
And so as it turns out, one of the scenes that’s playing against this scene is that we’re back with bigger stickers and conscious

Dr Rad
who, to be fair, again, I’m just going to pipe in and say to be historically accurate, the reason why Pontius Pilate probably actually deserves a bad reputation is history is that he does not seem to have been very skilled at negotiating the Jewish cultural beliefs and laws and practices in this region. He does not seem to be very respectful of them, and therefore probably does deserve a poor reputation as a governor for the things that went down. And probably was not a very soft and cuddly person, but being played by Michael Palin, I love him.

Dr G
Yeah, look, and I don’t think the Romans would expect anything less from themselves in this situation than to enforce Roman attitudes and beliefs. Yeah, so the things that Pontius Pilate gets accused of probably all quite deserved. Yeah.

Dr Rad
I mean, it seems like yeah, he probably wasn’t the best person for the job at this point in time, which probably is kind of why things got out of hand with Jesus. But was he any different to any other Roman governor? Yeah? Like, I

Dr G
can’t see a timeline necessarily where a Roman governor wouldn’t have gone yeah. Obviously they need to be executed, yeah. And from a Roman perspective, Jesus is not someone special, no. And in this moment, this cross cutting scene in the sort of lead up to the crucifixion of Brian is this scene where Pontius Pilate has said that he will squeeze someone, he will save one of the of the people to be crucified. There’s apparently going to be 140 crucifixions as a special celebration, and one of them will be released. And the crowd just goes wild because they’re aware of his speech impediment, and they just offer him names that he’s going to mispronounce. Watcher. Is there a watcher? And so they just keep going on on this path, and eventually somebody suggests Brian, in which Yeah, conveniently also doesn’t work for the speech impediment, and a messenger does get sent to the site of the crucifixion like, you know, we need to release Brian. And Brian is currently distracted having, he’s in a chat with somebody else. I don’t know, he’s not across, but he is like, you know, and somebody hears this, and one of the Mr. Cheeky,

Dr Rad
yes, Mr. Cheeky, yeah. Mr. Cheeky, telling him that it’s all right, my brother’s gonna come and rescue me.

Dr G
And then they have this moment where a guard turns up and says, you know, we are to release Brian. And so then the people organizing the crucifixions are like, well, who’s Brian? I’m

Dr Rad
Brian, and so is my wife. I’m Brian.

Dr G
And so the parody of the Spartacus scene writ large absolutely to enjoy. But

Dr Rad
again, what is historically accurate is that Jesus was not alone at his crucifixion, and he certainly was not the only person to be penalized this way under the

Dr G
Romans. No, although apparently some of the initial critique. Of this film was that there were too many people getting crucified at one time. Absolutely.

Dr Rad
Look, I think, I don’t think the Romans would have generally crucified this many people at one time. But then again, if you think about the aftermath of Spartacus war, allegedly 6000 of the surviving slaves, 6000 that is, were crucified up and down the Appian Way, so they were capable of it. Oh, yeah.

Dr G
So yeah, this is basically the end of the film. It is

Dr Rad
where we get to Always Look on the bright side of life. Now this is this actually segues nicely to thinking about the fact that this scene, in particular, I think, was one of the ones that aroused a lot of controversy when this film was released. So it did do very well this film, it made a huge amount of money. I think it was something like $60,000 in its first five days. I presume that means $60,000 in like 1970s money. It did do very well at the box office, but it was considered controversial by some people, and it was banned in certain areas. So it was banned in Norway. It was banned in the Republic of certain parts of the Republic of Ireland. I believe it was even maybe banned in parts of America. I think so. Definitely. It was a controversial film, and this particular scene was notorious because people felt like they were making fun of the crucifixion and, you know, Jesus’s death, something that’s hugely important for Christians. So if you, if you watch, and we will link this in the show notes, because it’s fairly available on YouTube, if you watch the BBC Two appearance of John Cleese and Michael Palin on Friday night, Saturday morning, which I have to say, my favorite part of watching that whole show was the fact that that show starts with a couple in bed having sex, and they turn to watch the program. That’s like the opening credits. But anyway, they were basically responding to criticisms from Malcolm Muggeridge and an Anglican bishop called Mervyn Stockwood, and the thing that they kept coming back to was that crucifixion scene. They felt like it was making light of death. They felt like it was really attacking a core moment for their belief. With the crucifixion, they kept coming back to that scene so you can kind of see how some people react, if you want to watch that YouTube thing, my favorite part of that whole episode is that, in terms of standing the test of time, those men don’t come across well nowadays the way that they I mean, you want to talk about being central to like Western culture and British culture, the way that they prioritize Christianity and that as being the basis for Western culture, the only thing that ever inspired anybody, completely ignoring the way that Christianity was forced upon people at the point of being burnt to death, completely ignoring all the negative conflict that has come with religions like Christianity, but it doesn’t stand the test of time. What you can see as well on YouTube, which I will also link, is the not the Nine O’Clock News sketch starring a very young Rowan Atkinson. I was gonna say that was one of his first Yeah, where? So about two weeks after that, initial debate appeared on television, not the Nine O’Clock News decided to do their own sketch making fun of the debate, where they have a bishop played by Rowan Atkinson coming on. He’s just made a movie about the life of Christ, and he’s being accused of lampooning Monty Python, particularly our Lord on high, John Cleese. And that might be a good moment, I suppose, to wrap up. Dr, G, yeah. Look, I

Dr G
think so. So I would encourage you, if you haven’t watched this film, to go and do so. It’s currently on Netflix, but it might be in other places as well. It is definitely worth thinking about as you also enjoy it. And yeah, I’m just in my mind, I’m just, I’m excited about the prospect of learning more about this historical period from non Roman material and and I think that’s one of the challenges that we always face as Roman historians, is that there is that element of the victor leaves the record, and that has definitely flow come down to us, and we can see it manifesting in this film. But there’s also like things to think about, in terms of imperialism generally, and ways in which we engage in decolonizing as we go. So yeah, and

Dr Rad
look, I think the thing that will stand the test of time about this film, I say, I do like that. It’s probably a bit more I lived in kind of Roman world, and I actually do like the fact that a lot of the characters we’re engaging with are more ordinary, I suppose, than a lot of the people we see in films about ancient Rome, who tend to be more emperors and generals. And we actually get to know these sorts of characters who, funnily enough, probably were the kinds of characters that. Jesus was moving around. You know, amongst us, that’s kind of why Brian and his mother are so perfectly placed to have that sliding doors kind of life with Jesus Christ. They’re exactly the kind of people that he probably would have been associating with. So I do kind of like that. But I think the thing that really stands the test of time is the fact that the characterizations like we all know people like the characters that Monty Python plays even 50 years later, including one that we didn’t really mention, but the leper, the X leper, without so much as a buy your leave, the people like that, who are kind of timeless characters, I think, and I think that’s what makes Life of Brian stand out so much, but perhaps also the fact that it is a bit of a riff on biblical epics, which some people might still be very familiar with, and I obviously number amongst those people.

Dr G
Well, it has been an absolute joy to learn more about this film with you.

Dr Rad
It certainly has, let’s say, arrivederci to Brian. His name is Brian.

Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians, you can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes, and you get to make suggestions for future episodes. This one was one of our Patreon requests. So of course, we’d like to thank all of our wonderful crew over at Patreon and also our ko fi supporters for helping us to cover the costs of making the show and taking it in new directions. However, if you’re experiencing a serious lack of sisters, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review that goes for our book as well. You can now purchase Rex, the seven kings of Rome, right from our Patreon store as well as through Gumroad and Amazon. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome, you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The 400s BCE have been a rollercoaster for Rome. It certainly seems to have been a decade of big changes, both in terms of foreign policy and on the domestic front.

Join us for the highlights for the last decade of the fifth century BCE!

The Partial Recap – 400s BCE

Want to hear the full story? Head to Episode 144: Where in the World is Carventum? to start at 410 BCE.

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 400s BCE!
Dr G – I’m Dr G
Dr Rad: and I’m Dr Rad
Dr G: and this is our highlights edition of the 400s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 409 to 400 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
Dr Rad: Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – the Roman world is a violent one.
Dr G: Get ready for a recappuccino.

409 BCE

408 BCE

407 BCE

406 BCE

405 BCE

404 BCE

403 BCE

402 BCE

401 BCE

400 BCE

Dr Rad: And that was the 400s in Ancient Rome… or was it?

Dr G: Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes. Jump in at Episode 144: Where in the World is Carventum? to join us for a deep dive into the 400s BCE.

Dr Rad: Thanks for turning in to this Partial Recap!