The Passionistas Project Podcast | Passionate Women Empowerment Hosts

Happiness Coach Ramona Harvey talks about staying positive during the COVID-19 lockdown.

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Billie Best chats with us about her new book How I Made a Huge Mess of My Life (or Couples Therapy with a Dead Man.)

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Four-time New York Times bestselling author Rachel Van Dyken has been called "the second coming of Candace Bushnell" after the release of her newest book with legendary Super Model turned Super Mogul, Kathy Ireland. The pair co-wrote the novel Fashion Jungle about the model’s life in the fashion industry. The book has been described as "Sex and the City meets the #MeToo Movement with a dash of Valley of the Dolls." Rachel has written close to 85 romance novels in the last ten years and is on mission to change the stigma of the genre.

Learn more about Rachel.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Wall Street Journal, USA Today and four time New York Times bestselling author Rachel Van Dyken. Rachel was called the second coming of Candace Bushnell after the release of her newest book with legendary supermodel turned super mogul Kathy Ireland. The pair co-wrote the novel "Fashion Jungle" about the model's life. The book has been described as "Sex and the City" meets the #MeToo movement, with a dash of "Valley of the Dolls." So please welcome to the show Rachel Van Dyken.

Rachel: Thank you so much for having me.

Passionistas: Thanks for being here. We're really excited to talk to you today. What's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Rachel: The one thing I'm most passionate about is my family. Um, they always come first, no matter what I'm doing, whatever project I'm working on, and then obviously hand in hand with that is writing. It's, it's something that I don't understand the concept of being stressed about deadlines or stressed about getting books out because for me, that's just my passion in life. I love getting words out. I love creating worlds for readers. So really it's, that's my passion and it's my job, which is, I'm really lucky.

Passionistas: Tell us about how you became a writer.

Rachel: So I actually was a school counselor. Right out of college, which I don't know why I thought that was a good idea at 21. But I was a school counselor. I had about 800 kids that I was in charge of, um, which was a lot for someone, you know, at my age. And I got really bad anxiety attacks, like really bad panic attacks from it because you're dealing with so much emotional stuff. You know, you have four year olds that are in preschool talking about suicide and it's just, it's just a lot to handle. Um, so I started reading, so I would take, um, I worked also for the state and I would take my clients to the library and I'd be like, okay, check out a book. And then we'd go through it and talk about, you know, social cues in how to approach friendship and different things like that. And then at the time I just was a voracious reader, so I would check out like 15 books.

And so I started checking out a ton of historical romance and in between the times I had clients, I started thinking, Hey, I could, I'm going to try. I thought I could do it. So I tried writing and would just send chapters to my sister every other day and she was like, this is great, but I'm like, you're a liar. You're my sister. You have to say it's good. Um, but yeah, then I sent it to a publisher and I got my first publishing deal, but it was a really great outlet for me. You know, I always encouraged kids to have a journal and for me it was almost like my own personal journal. Only it was romance.

Passionistas: So why did you pick romance?

Rachel: I love love. And I think that so often, especially as women, we are shamed for maybe being more sexual or talking about love or talking about female empowerment and relationships. And it really bothered me that romance was getting kind of this, this, I loved reading about it and people would always be like, Oh, that's a romance novel. Like I remember in college I had a friend, a friend that whenever I would bring in like a romance book and it was usually like Regency historical, he'd be like, Oh, you're reading one of those again. And I felt like I had to hide it. Like I felt like I wasn't allowed to have that book out in my history class because it wasn't considered real literature. So I wanted to prove that romance obviously is literature and it's good and it's amazing. And so because I love that and kids was a passion and because I loved reading about it, I wanted to write about it too.

Passionistas: Do you feel like the stigma of that genre has changed in recent years?

Rachel: Every time I think it has, I feel like we go backwards. You know, every single time I'm like, Hey, they finally get it and we're getting the respect we deserve. There's like an article somewhere that makes, that a man wrote, obviously that makes fun of our genre or that says there's other authors that are real authors and writers and we just write bodice rippers. And so that's something that it bothers me on a daily basis. I know the other day there was a post that was going viral and now it was about this library that did a thing called bad romance. And they would check out these romance books and they would host it every Valentine's day and they would pick out passages and make fun of romance novels. And I'm thinking, especially when you're taking stuff out of context like that, of course it's going to sound funny because you haven't been reading, you don't know the characters, you don't know.

And there are some of them are my friends, like the ones that are making fun of. And so that is just, I mean that's just more random, 2020 we shouldn't be having to do stuff like that. And so I think that there is still a stigma, but I'm hoping that me and my fellow writers can help continue to battle that as we do.

Passionistas: How do you battle it?

Rachel: The biggest thing that we do is we try to be really informed, like letting people know, okay, like a bodice ripper of maybe back in the day when people were getting Harlequin books that were all Fabio on the front. Like that's what people think when they think romance. You know the other thing you're writing "50 Shades of Gray" or they think that you're writing Fabio. And so for us it's just making sure people know what it is and making sure that the readers do a really good job of um, letting people know what it is and not having, not being shamed for it.

And I think too, on top of that, that's why things like this are so important. Doing a podcast and, and other large media outlets because then it takes that stigma away and then you can start talking about what's so important. You know, like we read about cancer and these books we read about research, we have very intelligent women and men in these books that, you know, have these passionate, you know, times together. But it's all character driven. And I think it's really important that people understand that it's a story and it's still character driven. There's a lot of writers in that space and you've been very successful.

Passionistas: So talk about some of the highs and lows just from a business perspective of what you're doing.

Rachel: When you start writing, you have to look at it as a business. And for me it's always been very important to look at it as a marathon, not a sprint. You know, a lot of writers start out and they put all their eggs in one basket. They're like, this book is going to hit. But what they don't understand is even if that book does hit, you still have to hit all those other times too. It's not just like a one, one hit thing and then you're going to be like, you know, going to the Hamptons with Nicholas Sparks, like, that's not how it works. Um, and I think that's a common misconception because you, when a book does really well, all of a sudden you see this person everywhere and you just assume that it was their first book and they haven't been working really hard for 20 years. Like you just, you don't know 'em and I think when Amazon opened its doors to all the self-publishing, you have a lot of people, you have a lot of competition and you have a lot of people that are coming in and doing what we call like their, I don't, they're called farms basically.

And so they come in and they just make up random pen names and they'll release like 15 books that have all been ghost written and then they're trying to, you know, make money and cheat the system and stuff. And so for us, like you're really having to navigate those waters. And something I, I've mentored a couple of authors and something I always tell them is don't, don't think of it as competition and don't keep people in the red ocean. It's like a red ocean versus blue ocean marketing perspective for me, don't compete. And do the same old thing with everyone else and be like, Oh, this stepbrother romance, that's huge. Let's do that. Don't do that. But bring them over into the blue ocean where there's lots of competition, there's more originality. And even if you're not making as much money in that blue ocean, you're still giving a better product to your readers and you're giving them something different.

You're not giving them the same thing that you're seeing in the Amazon or Apple top 100, you know, you want to give them something different. And so for me, there's been a ton of crazy highs, but there's been a lot of lows too. And you just have to ride that wave and no one publishing. It's going to be that way.

Passionistas: So now your first book was published traditionally with a book publisher and then you also self-published. So talk about the different approaches and how you approach each way.

Rachel: I think it's really a smart to have your hand kind of in a lot of different cookie jars because when you do just traditional publishing, um, you don't have a lot of say in what goes on. Um, um, luckily I have great publishers who do, who really want me to be partners with them, which I love. But that doesn't always happen, especially when you're newer. Um, because you haven't had those sales to prove, you know, that you know what you're talking about. They're like, no, we know. Um, so traditional publishing, it's more of a hands off. You turn in your manuscript, you do your edits, done indie publishing or self-publishing, you have control over the editing process. You have control over the cover art control over the marketing. And so I think it just depends on where your passion is. If you're a really controlling person, it's hard. It's hard to give your baby away to the big publisher if they change it.

I had a publisher change. The girl was, um, had dark hair and they put a blonde on the cover and I was like, why would you do this? And they were like, Oh, we just liked the picture better. And I'm like, that doesn't make any. So then I have readers like coming at me thinking, why would you do this to your cover? And I'm like, I didn't do it. And so then that's a repetitive process. So I think it's nice to have both. I think the indie publishing for me is great because I can plan my schedule to where I do my traditional release and then I have non-compete, so I have to wait six weeks so that I could do my own. So I still have series. I refuse to sell that our mind that I, that I write in. And then I have series that publishers own that they continue to keep. So it's kind of nice to have both. And I think there's, I think there's, I think it's smart to do that. I think it's good, especially if you have a book series, it didn't do that great. And that's, you know, your business and that's how you're putting food on the table. It's nice to have a traditional deal waiting in the back that, you know, was a sure thing.

Passionistas: How many books have you written and do you write more than one at a time?

Rachel: Yes, I write usually three books at a time. Um, but it's because so there was really good point. It, I don't get writer's block because of it because I'm constantly changing scenery, changing characters and I hate being on like tr whenever I have to finish one book and I know it's due in like a week. I hate that because then I have to stop working on other things because that's what helps me stay fresh. That's what helps me, you know, reinvent the story. Like I'll be writing, say a paranormal just for fun and all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, but this could happen and I'll just like click over and go in my other book. So it really helps me out. And I usually don't write in the same genre. So I be writing mafia with contemporary romance, maybe with like a little rock star romance or paranormal. So it's all different so I can keep them apart. Um, and I typically release 11 to 12 books a year and depending on my traditional release schedule, because everything has to go around that. And then I have, I believe we're over 85 books now published.

Passionistas: And how long have you been doing it?

Rachel: 10 years.

Passionistas: And you've had time to have a family.

Rachel: Yeah.

Passionistas: So how do you juggle all that good scheduling?

Rachel: It's, I used to, I don't honestly know what I used to do with my time. My husband and I asked that like every day we're like, did we just read magazines and sit around the house? Like what did we do? Because you know, we had full time jobs but you know with a child everything changes. It is you, your schedule changes your sleep, you don't sleep ever again. It's fantastic. Um, so for you know, for a while and my husband was really just being a full time, cause he works from home, stay at home dad and working full time. And I honestly have such a good partner and he's always been a huge advocate of it's not my job to watch my child. It's my privilege to have this child that gets not, you know, cause so often, especially people that are my age, we hear dads that are like, Oh yeah, I'll watch the kids tonight if you want to go out, you know, with your girls.

And it's like, no, no, like that's this. It's 50/50. You can, you know, I don't know. So he's always been, and he always thinks it's funny that that people are someone all how involved he is. But I'm like, no, that's his, it's his life. You know, he's the one that's like, let's have 10 more kids and I'm like, or we can only have a few. So yeah. So he's really supportive and great. And then obviously I really utilize my time when little guys napping or when he's at school, I'm working as hard as I can, getting those words out and, and I still answer all my own social media and do all that. So I definitely split it up. So if he's around, I'm on my phone trying to answer messages and emails. But then once it's around six, lately it hasn't been like this, but usually that's, it's around six o'clock. I put everything down, everything's done. And then we have family time and he knows that he knows when he's at from his nap, it's time for like mom and dad to play and we do whatever.

Passionistas: So most of the writing you do is classified as new adult. So for someone who doesn't know, talk about what that genre is.

Rachel: New adult is right after sa you're 18, 19 years old, um, it can be all the way up to 25-ish. And it's kind of that time in your life when you're like, what am I doing with my life? Why doesn't my degree work anymore? Why am I in student loan debt? You know, it's that whole time where you're trying to figure out who you are and what your place is in the world. And I find it extremely fascinating because no matter how old you are, it's just like with why books, no matter how old you are, you remember being in that place.

And so it's really fun to write because you remember what it was like when, when you were struggling, when you were like, do I have enough to buy chicken nuggets today? No, I do not. You know, like money and when you first get your first electric bill and you're like, what is this? You know, just all those times and all those life lessons. I think it's so fascinating putting it in book form because that's also a lot of times too, when you have your true love, right? Your very first love or your very first, you know, heartache. And so I think it's interesting to write about that because the feelings that are behind that are so intense because you have so much going on and you're not really, people say you're an but you're really not an adult yet. And so it's just a really fascinating time. So new adult would definitely be that little section of time where we call it like coming of age time.

Passionistas: You wrote your new book, which is called "Fashion Jungle" with supermodel Kathy Ireland. So how did that come about and what was it like working with her?

Rachel: We had a mutual friend introduce us and we honestly, I remember talking about, she called me later that week and I was sitting in front of my house and she was like, Hey, this is my idea. What do you think? Um, I kind of want to call it "Fashion Jungle." And there was these four women and I want them each to be in their thirties, you know, this is post like them, you know, making it in this industry. And she had this story, this incredible story that included a lot of situations where, you know, she was mistreated or her friends were mistreated or there were suicides, um, agents getting people addicted to drugs or people who were involved in sex trafficking. And you never saw again, just like fascinating, heart-wrenching stuff that she really wanted to put in a fiction book, which it was hard cause we had so much content.

Um, and so we decided just to start the project and it went really well. I would write stuff and send it to her. And then she would edit or add things. Um, I remember the first time I sat down, I had 15 pages of notes that we had to just say like, okay, how are we gonna, you know? And the other hard part is a lot of it is based off of real life. You know, it's, it's people, they're still living, some people that have died. And so celebrities, you know, that you can't like name names, you can't name drop it all. And so, you know, in order to protect those people and protect ourselves, we had to change names but also get permission from somebody because we were like, Hey, we're going to be writing about this. So it was really fun. It was a really fun experience. She was fantastic. Is fantastic to work with. Um, and it just one of the sweetest people in the world.

Passionistas: Talk a little bit more about that, about the celebrities and how you go about getting permission from them or, or the decision to change the name rather than get permission.

Rachel: Well, thankfully she was friend or is friends with a lot of these people. I mean, I don't even think that woman has enemies. She's just the nicest person. So, you know, that was the easier part. The harder part was people that maybe were not the greatest people. Um, that did take advantage, that did have the whole casting couch that, you know were worse than the worst that you've seen in Hollywood lately that are no longer with us. You know, how do you deal with that by still respecting the dead, if that makes sense. Um, and what we ended up doing is we were a prequel novella for the ebook launch and we partnered with them. And the, the actual novella was about this man that owned the biggest modeling agency in the world that was known to take advantage of all the girls, you know, and these girls, when I say girls, I'm talking 14 years old, 13 years old, and they're without their parents. They've been, they grew up thinking I trust an adult. Like, you know, you always tell your kids, find an adult, find a teacher, find this person, and then you could trust them. Like that's what you hope for your kid. And so, you know, her being in the big city, she's thinking, well, they're an adult, why would they take advantage of me? You know, she just so innocent. Her friends were innocent. They didn't know.

And then also you have this added pressure of well this is just how things are in this industry, which a lot of people are like, okay, well it's Hollywood. So I guess this is how things go. And it's New York. Okay. It's the fashion industry. It's normal to be, to get asked to be topless. Like that's okay. You know, and just crazy situations. And for her she was like, you know, I knew my boundaries going in. Um, but with this person that we ended up writing about, she, because of the person that he was, she actually didn't want not want to change his first name. So we kept his first name changed the last name just because she was in an altercation with him at one point where he tried to take advantage of her in hotel room saying, there's only one bed. We need to stay the night, you know, one of those situations. And so, so yeah, so we definitely wanted to make sure that we put that out there just because people need to know, you know, and, and she's been talking about in interviews too, so it's just one of those things that I think, you know, you just deal with it as it comes.

Passionistas: Are there any other names you can name in the book?

Rachel: We ended up, uh, basing a character off of Arnold Schwarzenegger because they're really good friends. And so, uh, we had actually finished it and then when I went to book bands and another signing with her, we were on the phone with her manager and he's like an Arnold really just like you to add a part. And we were like, so we went back. It was really, and I was like, repeat yourself Arnold. And then I'm like, okay, we're on a first name basis, get, okay. So I had to go back and, you know, spell that name. So that was fun. Uh, and add him like a little section in, because we also had another character based off of Vanessa Williams in the book. She also did, um, like a little soundtrack, um, song for the book too, which was really nice of her.

Um, and then we do have a one character that, it's one of those things that I don't mention it live cause there's a not supposed to, but if you read the book, you'll know it's based off of American royalty and this person does end up dying in a plane crash. And it's very, very, very sad. But it's someone that was close to her. Um, so that was definitely something that whenever readers pick it up and they read it, they are like, that's one of the gut wrenching parts of the book that really gets people. Because, you know, some of them were like, I remember this happening, I remember seeing this on TV. And if not, then they're, you know, Googling it as fast as they can drain of. Like, it's like for them it's like trying to find the treasure, like, okay. And that was just, you know, trying to relate everything together.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Rachel Van Dyken. To learn more about all of her books, including "Fashion Jungle" visit RachelVanDykenauthor.com. Now here's more of our interview with Rachel.

So what do you hope people take away from reading the book?

Rachel: Anyone can pick up this book. It's, it's a clean read. It doesn't have, you know, anything in it that even like a 12-year-old would not be able to read that hasn't been exposed to already. Um, you know, but even if you're in your eighties, we can pick it up and we wrote it that way so that people can not only learn about the fashion industry, which was always interesting, but also learn about the people that maybe no longer have their lives anymore. You know, people that we've lost, people that have gone through really hard times, people that have disappeared.

We wanted to make sure that we did have the #MeToo movement in there because this was back in a time when that was not a movement. It was not, hadn't happened yet. It's weird to me that Hollywood has had this whole movement of #MeToo, but yet no one's been talking about the fashion industry. And I think that's really strange because the fashion industry, it was worse, you know, like there and there's in situations where, you know, it was all young girls. And so that's something that we really want to do include because we haven't had that moment yet and it needs to happen. And I'm hoping that this helps raise awareness for that, you know? And on top of that we have, we deal a lot with sex trafficking. I know that's something that's close to my heart as is to Kathy's heart as well. Um, and that's something that again, like, you know, you try to raise awareness, but I feel like we're still yelling and people aren't listening.

And so it's something that we want to do include in there because she did have friends that she never saw again. You know, friends that were taken overseas. I know she had said one story, which I don't know if we included all of it, but um, when you don't make it, they send you to the other agency over in Europe and they give you drugs and tell you to be nice to the men because they're businessmen. Right? But they're actually sex trafficking, you know what I mean? So like people would go over there because they couldn't make it in New York and then she would never see them again. And so it's just heartbreaking stuff that yes, it's fictionalized. It's, it's still a fun, sexy book. There's still a lot in it. It's a good suspense. But we have all those little kernels of truth and wisdom in there that people can pick up and go, wait. And so I'm hoping that this book does help and continue to help raise awareness.

Passionistas: Do you think you'll start to write more books that are out of outside of the pure romance genre?

Rachel: My goal in life is to write a really good suspense that has a little bit of romance, but as categorized as a suspense. Because I love in this book we have a, I write a mafia romance, which sounds silly, but it's awesome. Love it so much. Um, I just love intense people and I love anti-heroes. So I love people that you think you can't redeem them. They're the worst. They justify all these things and in the end they're actually like a good person. And you see, just in this book we had a character day and that was like that. You think he's like the bad person, the villain and all of this and he's actually the savior of them all, which I think is so cool. And so I love writing stuff like that. And I hope that in the future with Kathy or whoever, I'm writing with the, I can continue to write books that have that romance in there that I desperately love, but also have so many other things that can actually help help people as well.

Passionistas: Are you going to write more with Kathy right now?

Rachel: We have not even talked about it because we've been doing press for two weeks now. Uh, but I would be totally open to it. You know, like I said, we had a lot of content and it was really hard. One of the things that I care from readers is, well there are so many storylines. It was like it took me to like page 10 and I'm like that's fine cause you have to get to know the characters. And like for romance, a lot of times there's just two point of views. So for my readers, you know, they're used to the two, not to the four or five, like different people that are talking.

Uh, so yeah, I would love to write more with her and I would definitely love to bring in, you know, we left it open. So to bring in any of those storylines again and doing an offshoot of that would be fun. Well and she's the kind of person too that seems like you could do something about business. Like, she's such a pioneer in business and branding and yes, I want to just kind of sit at her feet and have her tell me all, all her secrets, all her things. She's brilliant. And she was one of those people that, you know, when, when she was deciding, you know, I'm have a family now where I'm pregnant, you know, what do I do? Like she shifted her mindset to woman business woman. Like even though I'm a model, I'm still a business woman, so I'm going to do this. And I think her very first business was socks. Like she sold a brand of socks and it sold, sold out. And it did. And so they just went from there. You know, what about this, what about that? And she and Kathy Ireland worldwide do a fantastic job of once you're under their wing and you're part of their family, you're part of their family forever. And I think that's something that, that speaks volumes about who she is and who they are. And I think on top of that, it's also why she's so successful is because those people had been with her for a long time. And, and, and once you're partners with her, you know, you've, she mentors you, you know what I mean? And she's really great at that.

Passionistas: What do you think is your best habit?

Rachel: My best habit's probably working out and making sure that I get up. My watch always tells me to stand cause I'm always sitting and I am the type of person that, again, I'm high anxiety cause I'm, you know, I think a lot of creative people are because we're just like Whoa all over the place. You know, I don't sleep super well because I'm constantly thinking about books. And so one thing that I do that my husband's really good at being reminding me like, remember you've been sitting for 10 hours, remember? Like you're going to feel so much better if you do this. And that's, I do CrossFit. So that's, that's a habit that I've kept up for the last five years. You even did it when I was pregnant and I think it's so important. I always tell my readers too, I'm always like a huge advocate of eating healthy, but also getting out, even if it means like just getting out of your chair and walking around your hotel room and doing some air squats or just taking a walk outside.

I think it's really important just to, to move because I feel like we're so disconnected and I think too, when you're disconnected in your home, and I'm like, hold up working all day, I'm not having any social interaction at all except for with people in my head, which means I'm kind of crazy, so I need to go out and so I have to leave the house, go out and make sure that I have that time for myself. And I think so many authors hit burnout this day and age. Like you see so many authors that burn out because they're just like pumping out books, but they're not taking that time for themselves. They're not taking that time to even read or to, or to be outside or to take vacation. And I know I'm preaching to the choir because I'm, I have to remind myself of this every day. But that's why it has to become a habit because you need that time for yourself to relax.

Passionistas: Is there one lesson that you've learned on your journey so far that really sticks with you?

Rachel: The biggest lesson I've learned that I continue to tell myself every day is that even if it's just one person that is impacted by your words, but maybe they were suicidal or maybe they've gone through a death in their family. Maybe they have, they're going through anxiety but anxiety a lot. Then it's worth it. Like it is worth your time, 100% to write that book and to put it out there, even if it just one person buys it because that means that one person needed it at that time. And so I think when sales are down or when you're bummed about a book release or when you know you see someone else doing really well and you're excited, but you're also like, but why? Why do I suck? I don't, I don't get it. Like, you need to know that that's so important.

And I always pray that I'm brought that person. So especially because I think it helps us authors to just understand that like these people are out there like needing these words. Like yes it's romance, but we put so much in these books that, you know, we're so intense, we deal with really intense situations and we use romance, we use comedy to kind of help people out of them. But that reading is an escape. And so no matter what you're providing that escape and that safe place for someone and I think that's really important.

Passionistas: What's the biggest risk you've taken in your career and how has it paid off?

Rachel: I think the biggest risk was quitting my job. Um, I quit my job when I, I mean I had nothing in savings. I had just used my first, then my very first Facebook ad the year before that for 50 bucks. So that's all I had. I mean, we were literally living from paycheck to paycheck off $21,000 a year because my husband had just gotten, he was a commercial diver. And you get a great job. And then he, they almost killed him. He almost died. He was drowned and it was like three months after we were married. And so it was a huge risk because I was the breadwinner and I had my MBA at the time and I had just gotten a brand new job that was paying like double and I was like, yeah, you believe in it. Okay, it's cheaper. But I was like, yes. Um, but I hated that job and I would come, I loved the kids I worked with, but I was a manager and I would come home and the boss, the one boss above me was just so stressed out all the time.

And, and I would, she would keep me there until 10 o'clock at night, you know, so I'm getting up and I'm driving there at eight. And so I was working crazy days, but I was on salary, so it didn't matter. You know what I mean? Um, I wasn't getting to spend time with him. And then I was writing for like three hours a night. So I was getting no sleep because I just had to do it. Like it was my passion and I had just hit the USA today list on my last Regency series. And so I was making okay money with my royalties, but I was like, I just can't, like I can't, I need to do this full force. And so I quit my job and started writing full time with him. Also, you know, just, we started another business, started a publishing house in Indy house under his name and just kind of went full force at it.

Passionistas: What's your definition of success?

Rachel: Success is going to bed at night knowing you got done that day. Everything you needed to get done, even if that means you just brushed your hair. I had a really hard time when I just had my son because I was used to having like 12 hours a day to finish a book and I'd read like 17,000 words a day. Like I was just crazy. And then all of a sudden it was like, okay, well I'm trying to nurse and then I'm trying to like, I can't type one handed. And I was like, how do I, you know, cause he's a boy. So he thought he was hungry every hour of course. And I was like, no formula. And then finally I was like, we're done here. We're going to get formula. Cause I just couldn't deal with any cause I was trying to work.

And then you panic about finances and you're like, okay, well I have to get this book out or if I'm, if I'm late on this deal. And so for me the biggest thing was like understanding, and this, my sister helped with this. She was like, did you brush your hair? And I was like, yeah, actually I did good. You got mascara on. And I was like, I actually got mascara on today. And she's like, congratulations. You have a successful day. Like did you get breakfast? Like you have to look at every single victory is like, even if it's small is a victory. Um, so it's not even about money. It's not about my book at the time. So we looked at this like, I think it's, you have to look at the tiny, tiny, tiny things because then when the big things happen, it's even more epic.

But if they don't, you don't go to bed like, Oh, what was me, you know, you can still celebrate what you've accomplished and what you've done. And I seriously have to tell myself that on a daily basis because in my husband, again, his radar reminded me, cause I'll be like, Ugh, but I didn't get this. He was like, but did you get this done? And so that's kind of like switching your focus to not what I didn't do, but what I did do. And then even writing those things down, which I've done, put on sticky notes around it and like killed it. I killed it today. So I think that's so important and it's something that I struggle with still, but it's good.

Passionistas: What advice would you give to a young woman who wants to be a writer?

Rachel: My advice is write, write, write, write, write. I think, uh, and even if you're writing 27 different manuscripts or if you're, you know, working on just one, it makes sure that you write it and finish it. There's so many people that have like, I've been writing a book for 10 years and I'm like, no, but a lot of times that's because we never think we're good enough. It comes back to that security thing. You think it's not good enough or I'm going to compare it to, to Christina Lauren. No, like they're, they're amazing writing duo, but you're new. Like you can't compare yourself. You know what I mean? It's not fair to you. It's not fair to them. So making sure that you're continuing to write and hone your craft, but do not go back and delete what you've already written because a lot of times what you put down the most raw is the most real, like the most, the stuff that's going to impact people the most.

And I can honestly say my worst selling books are ones that my publisher had me rewrite that I took out all my original stuff that I really loved that made it special and then it just made it like anything else. And I think that that is something that writers need to remember. That's like the best advice I can give.

Passionistas: Do you have a mantra that you live by?

Rachel: My mantra is actually from Joyce Meyer and I, it inspired me to write a book and it's "Do it afraid." So it's like anytime you're, you know, it's not no fear. It's even if you're afraid you can still take a step and do something. And I think that's so important. It's because I've had a lot of really intimidating situations where I'm like, what do I do? My husband's always reminding me, he's like, do it afraid. Just do it. Like it doesn't matter. You can do it and still feel that fear, but don't let that fear define you.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Rachel Van Dyken. To learn more about all of her books, including "Fashion Jungle," visit RachelVanDykenAuthor.com.

Please visit the PassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and new subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions.

Sign up for our mailing list to get 10% off your first purchase, and be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Carolyn Koppel, founder of Aaron's Coffee Corner, talks about starting a charity, creating Aaron's Coffee Corner and working with a sponsor.

Listen to Carolyn's episode of The Passionistas Project Podcast here.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Claudia Cordova Rucker is the founder of the award-winning beauty oasis Aqua Skin and Nail Care and Estetica Mia. Her purpose is to connect with entrepreneurs to work toward a shared vision of elevating work environments through ethical business practices, an open book business management model and heartfelt leadership. In 2013, 2017 and 2018 she was recognized by the California Senate for her excellence in leadership and contributions to her community’s economic growth.

Learn more about Claudia.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, sisters who are on a mission to inspire you to follow your passions through our interviews with strong, empowered women who are pursuing their dreams.

Today we're talking with Claudia Cardova Rucker, the founder of the award winning beauty oasis Aqua Skin and Nail Care and Estetica Mia. Claudia's purpose is to connect with entrepreneurs to work toward a shared vision of elevating work environments through ethical business practices, an open book business management model and heartfelt leadership. In 2013, 2017 and 2018, she was recognized by the California Senate for her excellence in leadership and contributions to her community's economic growth.

So please welcome to the show, Claudia Cordova Rucker.

Claudia: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

Passionistas:  What are you most passionate about?

Claudia: I'm most passionate about finding what's alive in people. Really being very aware when I'm connecting with them and really listening to what are their needs themes, you know, like what is really important to this person and what do they need to thrive. And I think we're also busy and we're moving through life at such a quick pace, that to me, the beauty is just to slow down when I meet someone and just really be present and listen to them and say, wow, what do they need to thrive? And then to come back and say, how can I be a part of that? What can I offer while still being aware enough that I have to ask permission? Not just go into strategy and analysis for them, but to really listen and connect with them and saying, Hey, do you need someone to listen? Do you need advice? What is it that's alive in you? And how can I meet your needs? And that's what I'm really passionate about. And gaining that awareness and then bringing that to the workplace. That's when I thought, Oh my God, this is magic. This is my purpose. This is really where I want to spend my time and be very intentional about creating these beyond ordinary business work environments.

Passionistas:  Talk about that. Talk about how you bring that into the work you do.

Claudia: I have a high need for peace and harmony. Uh, so it was really an identifying my own needs and that, and then realizing that when I either a went anywhere to, uh, be a customer or be in my own workplace, felt, uh, some disharmony that that really affects me on a really deep level. So it was really that like, aha moment that I kind of could pick up on that, that I thought, okay, well how do I go and change this? At first it was implementing open book, business management and transparency. And so that's what I thought would fit. And then I moved to know, Oh, we need a training program that's going to fix that. But it wasn't until I picked up the phone and spoke to Catherine Cooley, she's a nonviolent communications coach that I actually realized, Oh my God, this is the answer.

And so we really bring that into the workplace by starting with communication and how we communicate. And we use a communication style, which it seems kind of dry. It's actually much more than that, but it's called NBC or nonviolent communication. As the founder of the company, you figure out what your needs are and then you really hire for people who share means. So for us in our organization, I have a high need to contribute and our team also has a high need to contribute. And the way that we do that is through a really connective beauty experience. And so there's a lot of layers to it. But I would say that's at the foundation. It really is how we communicate and how we honor what's alive and the people who we collaborate with.

Passionistas: Talk about your journey to starting the nail care salon in 2005.

Claudia: I had been in New York on September 11th and what I now realize is that I was probably suffering from PTSD and I was just super afraid. I was like, if I don't move back to California and something like this happens, how am I going to get back to California and to my family? Because you know, I was stuck in New York for a couple of weeks when that happened. So it was really this thought of like, how do I come back? And I didn't even think about what am I going to do? My expertise at that point was in fabric manufacturing and design for men's wear. And I came to Santa Barbara. There's nothing to do. It has nothing to do with menswear. So I was just here trying to figure that out. When my mom asked me, “Hey, your sister's a single mom, you know, she really needs a way of providing financial support. Can you help her open a business?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure, that's going to be cool. Oh I can do that. That's not, that's not hard.”

And it was really working with my other two sisters that we created. Upwork skin and nail bar, just using our passions. I'm passionate about business. My middle sister Cynthia is passionate about, she's a surgical nurse and you know, all those beautiful cleanliness protocols and health consciousness. And then my, my little sister is passionate about nail care and beauty. So we kind of put all of our strengths together and opened up Aqua nail bar. And then a year later my little sister said, peace out. I do not like managing people and I don't want to do this, but by then we were deep in a business and so someone had to rise to the occasion and take over Aqua and that's really why I ended up continuing with Aqua Aqua Nail Bar.

Passionistas:  And then you opened another salon in 2006 but you had to close your first salon three years later. So what happened and how did you handle that setback?

Claudia: One learning lesson was you'd never let your ego get in the way of closing a business when all the signs are there, right? We were leaving a lot of money and I just had this like I can do this attitude and I can make this happen, but we were in a recession and the location was in a, in a neighborhood that was really hit hard by the recession. So closing the original location and just consolidating into the second location. Was this really what kept us going? And it's really where I learned that resiliency that I needed just to say, okay, press pause on ego, keep on moving forward. Find those inner strengths and just keep bouncing back because even after we closed the first one, there's been a lot of journeys, a lot of times where we've had to like kind of look back and rewrite our story to be able to continue on in business.

Passionistas:  So talk about focusing on the company culture at Aqua and why that's so important to you.

Claudia: In 2015 California passed AB 1413 which was a labor code change and it, it has culminated into AB five right? What we now know and has gained a lot of publicity, but we were winning all sorts of awards. We were really in a great place when our employment lawyer called me for a meeting and said, Hey, have you heard about AB 1513 you might want to consider this. And really that's when we had to make a decision. What route were we going to go with our business? Where are we going to be compliant and still have employees or were we just going to become landlords and rent space? And for me, I had always had this vision of, Oh, Aqua is going to be a franchise and I'm going to franchise the world. So that meant that we had to adopt AB 50 AB 13 actually all of our independent contractors, employees, well, when you have in place, I mean you really have to lead and you have to create a work culture.

That is a, I mean to me it's, it's taking more responsibility and it was really all these learning lessons of transferring from independent contractors to employees that really would test me over and over and over again. And I also would say is that when I would face the obstacles, I really looked out into the world like Tony Robbins, Simon Sinek, all of these really amazing people that are very inspiring. But then I go into depression, right? Because I didn't know how to make this happen in my business. But as the universe always provides, you know, I had all these really amazing women that just kind of floated in and you know, just taught me that it really starts with work culture, staying positive work culture. And then finally to me it was communicating all of that. And again, coming back to MVC and learning MVC because now I could really have a platform that I could use to communicate the love and tenderness that I always felt in my heart, but that I always had to kind of join with the whole business aspect of it.

Right? And really it's in the, in the work culture, when you get that right and it's helped them tick, um, to what, to who you are, not as who you pretend to be, but who you really are at your core. That's just really magic because there's enough people out there that you're going to find your tribe as long as you're clear and you can communicate what your purpose is clearly. And so that's really where the work on work culture started just through a lot of pain, really, to be honest with you. And then again, that resiliency of saying, no, I'm not going to accept that this is the way that it has to be. I can choose to create what's living inside of my heart. I just don't know how. But I know that the guides are going to come in and they would, it's very miraculously our amazing work culture has been a collaboration of many, many women. Just saying, I see you and you matter and I believe in what you're doing and let me offer you my gift and then take it, say thank you and incorporate it into your work culture.

Passionistas:  It's so unusual, and I will speak for myself, it's not something I've experienced in a work culture. So does it take people time to adjust to it?

Claudia: We have a lot of clarity in regards to what needs we made for employees. I would say that before it would take a lot of time, because we weren't in alignment, we were just like kinda housing people under our roof and offering them a job. But for example, now because we're, we're speaking so clearly that women and we mainly employ women will come in and we go through like a seven step interview process because we want to make sure that we're a good fit for them, just like they're a good fit for us. But I would say that because we're so good at communicating what our work culture is like and who will do really well there and thrive that no it doesn't. It's just very natural and they come in with such excitement and they stay with that excitement, even through you know, painful, grow, growing moments.

There's still the excitement and the, and because they trust and they know that we have this mutuality that the company and the leader is so invested in their personal growth. And by doing that we know that we're growing a company together. And who wins? I mean everybody wins. The clients just get amazing beauty experience and our team just gets amazing personal growth experiences. It's really beautiful, especially because we have this aspire training program. So a lot of the trainees that are coming in are young women in their twenties to be able to offer them an environment that's very positive and that can bridge the heart rural business experience and real communication tools. I mean that's the magic. You see them grow so quickly and their confidence is just like every day you see it. Just build and build and build. And that to me is the exciting, the exciting part of it. Yeah. I always tell them, your art legacy, you're going to go out there when you do well in life. That's the seed that we've planted and kindness and compassionate is going to grow. So there's a ripple effect by investing in them. Our bigger, higher purpose of spreading kindness and creating a compassionate world that like there are legacy they're going to make that they're going to make that happen.

Passionistas:  Were Amy and Nancy Harrington and you are listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Claudia Cordova Rucker. To learn more about her businesses, visit www.esteticamia.com. Now here's more of our interview with Claudia.

So you've obviously had some setbacks along the way too, and you had a leak, a costly leak that led to you needing to get a bank loan. So talk to us about that process and what happened and what was the result of that?

Claudia: I always say that I'm very thankful for that plumber, that kind of food. So negligent. Um, because that was really the process. I would say of my own personal growth journey, we needed the money. We were not bankable at that point. And even though we were generating over a million dollars in revenue, the bank did not see that five to 6% net profit was enough to get a loan, which is bizarre to me now because in our industry that's very normal. So to ask for someone in the beauty industry to generate more than that is kind of unrealistic unless you're writing like a open book business management model and are highly systematized. So yeah, I was really confused and really kind of like desperate and I think that my banker saw that and she really connected with me and she said, “I know we said no, and I'm really sorry I, it could be a yes, but go to Women's Economic Ventures… to WEV. They will offer you the loan. I'm sure that they will.”

And so really what WEV gave me is they saw me as the leader that I could be, not the manager that I was, they really invested in me through coaching, through the loan, through awards that I've won. We've just been a really foundational part of my own personal growth and developing the methodologies to create these beautiful beyond ordinary businesses. I would just say that WEV was what inspired me to start this journey and this path of empowerment for myself, but also for these women that we're talking about that get to be part of our organization and make it what it really is.

Passionistas: So can you explain a little bit about what the Women's Economic Venture is?

Claudia: They are a women's center. The women's centers are all over the United States and basically what they do is they provide coaching, mentoring, and then they provide funding for my minorities, women or just entrepreneurs that don't have a lot of business experience.

And it's really like a trust lending model, which you know, doesn't really exist out there. And they're a place where you can go as a woman or a man because now men are also a part of the program really where you can say, I have a dream to create a business, but I really don't know how and I really don't have any resources. And you have this whole group of people at WEV that are there who say, come on in, we believe in your dream and we're going to help you make it happen and not only make it happen, we're going to be there with you as you grow because they start with the entrepreneur training program, but then you can go into like long-term coaching like thrive and vibe, which is what I was part of and they offer you these beautiful souls that are called business consultants, which can teach you anything from financial literacy to leadership.

They're your guide through entrepreneurship. I was very lucky. I had a, I had a coach by the name of Jeff, Jeff Alkazian and I always tell him your gift Jeff, is that you see leaders before they see themselves and he taught me that and he taught me that way of thinking, of seeing people before they could actually see themselves and then giving them the tools that they needed and keeping them positive so they could find that resiliency to move forward to really offer the world. That's something amazing. Most of the week businesses are really particular and that they're not just about business. They're really about making an impact in our world. So there's like one girl, her name is Wren and she's offering unloved fish to the world, right? So all these fish that have no home, if people don't know them, she so that we can protect our oceans and still keep what's beautiful and alive in them by not odor fishing or I have another friend of mine that's in weave, her name is Cynthia Taurus and she's offering culturally correct therapy to the Latino community, which is, I didn't even know about that, but it's just like amazing that you can be seen for who you are, not for what therapy has said that you should be. Right. So yeah, so they, they just, they're doing amazing work in our community. I just think that there needs to be more WEVs out there and out there in the world.

Passionistas: Talk a little bit about the salon coaching that you do. This is through strategies.

Claudia: Strategies is really interesting because in 2015 when we were going, we have to make the decision to go employee based strategies, offers an open book business management platform. So really what they're doing is that they're giving you all the tools to be able to implement open book management in your company. An open book management basically is, we're completely transparent with our financials. We teach our team financial literacy. So basically we invite them to be what I call “intrepreneurs.” They get to make the choices. It's choice on how we spend money choice, how we train choice, where we're gonna invest our resources.

So for me, I am the leader of the company, but really we're empowering them to take full ownership. And to me it's just when they believe in that and they can invest themselves in not being afraid to make choices, you really see a lot of personal growth and strategies is the company that gave us the methodologies to be able to implement open book management into our company. How did the California wildfires and mudslide impact you and the business? First, just like an awareness of God. We got a really love every day because we don't have any control over mother nature and especially for us that we live in California. We're always at the mercy of the winds, the fires and the rains now. So it was that awareness of just being really prepared and really strengthening that personal resiliency that I was talking about. That's how it's really affected me in a positive way.

It was sad also and that it affected us in that a lot of our clients moved away and some of our service providers chose to not do the commute every day to come to. So it did effect us staffing wise and our co like the number of customers we were seeing. But I also think that in all that case chaos and craziness, it was really a call to find that resiliency within myself and that tool kit that I say that lives in internally, that I have this, I own this and I'm a creative person and I'm just going to look at everything in a positive way and say, I know it looks really shitty right now, but what positive can come through this? What can we learn and how can we grow?

Passionistas:  Do you feel like you have a particular trait that's helped you be successful?

Claudia: Yes, I know exactly what it is. I don't like labels cause sometimes I think they're kind of, I have not, not that I think they are to me a little bit judgmental, but the ability to be a concatenator — to put ideas together. Catena is like a chain and in Spanish and catena in Italian. So basically it's the idea to be able to link things together, right? To create something bigger. And so I would say that that trait, which my big system thinker friend called me a concatenator, she goes, “That's why you're successful. It's because you're a concatenator.” And I'm like, “Oh my God, what does that word mean? I’ve got to go look it up in the dictionary.” And then I met with her again and I go, “Could you explain to me what a concatenator is?” And she explained it to me and I said, “Yeah, that's really true.” It is the ability to be able to see random things and then put these ideas together and just be okay, be fearless and the idea that it might not work, but when it works, it's really super awesome and cool.

Passionistas:  What's your secret to rewarding life? It's really investing in yourself.

Claudia: It's really saying every single dollar that I can spend on coaching, reading therapy, right, whatever, whatever it is that you need, making yourself the first and, and foremost investment because when we invest in ourselves, the payoff is always going to be big, right? Um, for everybody who we're connected with, for us, for everybody who we're connected with and just for the greater world at large, I feel like when you're in your happy place, you have so much more time to be creative and see things in a positive way as opposed to really that the amount of energy that it takes to be in that dark, lonely, isolated place. Nobody wins there, right? So by investing in you and figuring out and taking ownership of you, think that that's the best investment that you can make and will ultimately lead to the most joy and fulfillment in life. But one that is not based on anything or anyone's affirmation of you, like your personal affirmation, like really lives at your core. And to me that's the best thing investing in you. It just pays off and happiness and joy.

Passionistas:  Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Claudia Cordova Rucker. To learn more about her businesses. Visit www.esteticamia.com.

Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and new subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list to get 10% off your first purchase.

And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 2014, Lindsay Gordon hit career dissatisfaction rock bottom at her job at Google. She started doing any exercise she could find, that would help her reflect on what was important to her and what she needed out of a job. She wanted to share the results of her research with others, so she founded A Life of Options. As a career coach, she works with analytically-minded people who are feeling uninspired or crushed by an ill-fitting job.

Learn more about Lindsay.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Lindsay Gordon. In 2014, Lindsay hit career dissatisfaction, rock bottom. She started doing any exercise she could find that would help her reflect on what was important to her and what she needed out of a job. She wanted to share the results of her research with others. So she founded A Life of Options. As a career coach, she works with analytically-minded people who are feeling uninspired or crushed by an ill-fitting job. So please welcome to the show Lindsay Gordon.

Lindsay: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Passionistas: Thanks for joining us. So Lindsay, what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Lindsay: I am most passionate about designing and creating content, frameworks, and experiences that inspire people to have the courage to take action and do what matters to them in their career. Cause I feel like I'm on a mission to relieve the amount of pressure and anxiety we feel about our careers and help people stop doing what they think is right in their career and actually start doing what's right for them.

Passionistas: So what led you to the place where that was what you wanted to do?

Lindsay: I think it was the experience that I had while working at Google, which is a fantastic place to work in many ways and also wasn't the right fit for me. And I found that the messages that I was getting was, well this is the best place in the world to work and of course you should want this, that and the other out of your job. And there wasn't any space for me to feel like it was okay to make my own decision that maybe it wasn't the right fit for me. And so I want to help spread that message that we can choose what works for us. And the thing that works for somebody else is not going to be the thing that works for us. And so really giving people that agency to make that decision for themselves, even though we get a lot of pressure these days about what work should mean to us, where we should want to work, all those types of things.

Passionistas: So now let's go back a little bit. You actually studied bioengineering in college?

Lindsay: I did, yes.

Passionistas: Why did you take that path and where did that lead you in the beginning?

Lindsay: Yeah, I always had been interested in math and science very early on and I loved getting to work with my hands and build things. And so engineering seemed like a pretty good fit for me. And I went to a fascinating tiny, tiny engineering school outside of Boston, only 75 people per class. That's how tiny it was. And it was all about building and design and getting to really understand your user, connect with people and all kinds of fascinating things. So I thought, okay, engineering is great. I also like biology. We'll combine those two. And I got to work on um, some medical devices with Boston scientific. I actually have a patent for a medical device. And so that was kind of where I landed in college. And engineering has always been interesting to me. I kind of feel like it's a nice combination of people, but then also that hands on design and creation work.

Passionistas: Were you doing that kind of work at Google? What were you doing there?

Lindsay: I somehow am on my third career already. So I started off in engineering, did that for a little bit and then kind of fell into doing technical support at Google. And I am one of probably a unique kind of human that actually loves technical support. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love customer service. Um, it's kind of the, again, that combination of getting to connect with people, but also having this treasure hunt. Every time somebody calls you and you know, they say, I have this particular problem and you need to figure out what are the right types of questions to ask them, what are the right troubleshooting steps to take. So I just absolutely love to getting to do. And I did about five years of technical support there.

Passionistas: So you talked a little bit already about the atmosphere at Google, but tell us like specifically what it was like working there and you said, you know, you were supposed to like it but you didn't. So tell us a little bit more about that.

Lindsay: I'm so grateful for so many things about Google. I got to meet incredible people. They have fantastic programs to bring interesting speakers in. I got to learn so much. I got to do a lot of facilitation at Google, which was great. And um, it just, it was a very big place, right? It's a big company now and there is bureaucracy and it's hard to move around. I really wanted to move to the more people side of the business after I had done many years in technical support and I found that a really difficult thing to do.

And um, I also, because I loved customer service and I love designing, as I mentioned, I love designing frameworks and um, exercises and all this kind of stuff. And on the team that I was on, it was a little bit more about metrics, you know, like are you the biggest case closer, um, you know, metrics in the direction of customer service. But I also cared about the people on our team and the people side of that. And so I was always trying to do, um, some other projects and it just felt like I was more expected to do more of the metrics around technical support. So I think I wanted a little bit more creativity, a little bit more ease of moving around. Maybe I would have thrived at a smaller company. And so those were a couple of the pieces that I was feeling that just didn't seem like quite the right fit for me.

Passionistas: So did you leave there knowing what you were going to do next or did you start to think about what your next move was going to be while you were still working there?

Lindsay: I completely fell into running my own business. Like all good career transitions. I did not know that this was in the cards at all. So while at Google, because I had so many of these other interests that I wanted to be cultivating, I started working on our onboarding and training for new hires. And as I was talking to our new hires, everyone was really stressed about, Oh my gosh, I'm new here. You know, how do I have conversations with my manager? What if I'm stuck in technical support for the rest of time? And so I just started talking to people about their job and how, how to think about it and kind of relieving some of that anxiety. And a lot of people said to me, you would be a great coach now, I had no idea what that meant at the time. So enough people had mentioned that.

So I said, okay, I really need to test out what this thing is. I need to go learn about it. So I took one class at San Francisco state about learning coaching tools and I was amazed because I didn't actually know that there were skills that you could learn that I was already trying to do innately. So I kind of accidentally signed myself up for this year and a half long certificate. Loved it. And as I said, my goal was to move over to a more people focused role at Google. So while I was trying to figure that out, people started coming to me and saying, are you taking clients? I have people to refer to you. And I was like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Everybody. Like I'm, I'm not doing my own business, you know, these are my plans. But luckily I said yes and kind of ran it as what I like to call my accidental side business and ran it for about a year while I was still at Google.

I'm a very risk averse person and one thing that I talked to clients a lot about is test out anything that you think might be the right next step for you. So I tested it out by running it on the side for a year as a part time thing. I also tested it out by eventually moving into a career development role at Google so that I can test out do I enjoy doing this? You know, is it something that I find fulfilling? Are people finding it useful? So after about this year of running it on the side, I thought, you know what, it might be time to try this full time and to really go all in and see what it's like to run your own business. And that was about three and a half years ago now.

Passionistas: And the perfect example to the people that you're helping, you know, you're practicing what you preach.

Lindsay: And a lot of times I think we talk about entrepreneurship as something that is very risky and um, read an interesting book recently, I think it was the um, side hustle book. I can't remember the exact title, but they talk about how actually entrepreneurs tend to be very risk averse and if you're doing it properly, you're trying to de risk every avenue possible in order to have the greatest success in doing your own thing. So I like kind of sharing that message to have, it doesn't need to be just, I'm going to quit anything. Everything without having any idea whether I like it. I haven't tested anything out. Actually, there are many ways to de-risk the process so that you can feel really good about running your own thing, if that's the right thing for you.

Passionistas: So talk a little bit about the approach you take to working with a client through your company.

Lindsay: So I'm quite unique in this space in that most career coaches come from a background of hiring and recruiting. But given that I have this engineering background, I kind of think of the work that I do as I am applying my engineering brain to this question of how do we even know what we're looking for in a job that's a good fit for us, and how do we do that in the most practical and structured way? So I've designed a three month process that I take people through that gets them clear about what they're looking for. So we look at, you know, what's important to them in life and how does work fit into that? What's their philosophy of work? What are their values? What are their beliefs about what a successful life looks like? And then we start to look at, okay, let's understand your current role and how that actually fits in with what we're learning about you.

Because a lot of people come to me and they are frustrated, they're stuck, they're aimless, they are convinced they need to quit, they're dissatisfied with where they are and they feel like they should have been further along in their career. And what's interesting is that when I take people through this process of learning all about themselves so that they can make decisions that feel good to them, more than 50% of them don't end up quitting. And it's, it's not that they, it's not that everybody completely falls back in love with their job, which does happen, but people get to see their job a little bit differently. And we take away that like, Oh my gosh, my only option is to quit. And so they can see, okay, even though this is maybe not the right fit for me long-term, I understand what I'm getting for from it right now.

And I can start to work towards what that next step might be. Whether that's an internal transfer, whether that's moving to a new company, whether that's moving to a new field. I had a client who came to me and she was like, I need to quit. I'm done with this job. I might even be done with this field. Like I don't know that this is what I want anymore. Two sessions in, we did a couple of exercises and she kind of like laughed and was like, actually I job is a great fit for me for all of these particular reasons. I was hyper focused on the downsides and actually if I make these two changes, um, I'm really grateful for where I am and this is actually a great fit for me. So I think the, the mindset piece is such a big piece. Sometimes nothing about the external situation has to change for you to have a different experience of your work.

Passionistas: And of the people that do make a major change, do you find that there's like a common thing that has been holding them back from doing that?

Lindsay: I would probably say there are two aspects. One is not being really clear for themselves about what their strengths are. I think oftentimes when we have strengths, we think of them as, Oh, but that's the easy thing that I do. Doesn't everybody do that? Or you know, Oh, well that's just how my brain works. And so when people don't see those things as strengths, then they wouldn't even think to pursue something in that direction. So for example, I had a woman who was working in engineering who, uh, wanted to move to something else, was unhappy there, and she had never thought of teaching as a big strength of hers, but it kept coming up over and over again in these exercises. So she ended up moving internally to another fantastic job that was more teaching the engineering, um, discipline. And so she's over the moon, but just had never considered that before.

And then I think the other thing is not letting yourself make that choice because of the pressure, right? There's always pressure from society, from family. One quick example I'll give there is that I worked with somebody who works in project management and she said, Oh yeah, I've always had a lifelong dream of doing art for video games. But that was never something that my parents allowed me to do. That was a, uh, an approved, you know, thing to study. And so she's studying engineering, she's been working in project management and you know, once we discovered that, it was like, okay, well let's finally explore this if you've been waiting your whole life and thinking about that in the back of your mind. So she started taking small steps towards that, right? Creating a portfolio, starting to work with a mentor, uh, exploring what additional schooling would look like. And then over the course of testing it out over a year, she contacted me recently and was like, Lindsay, I have signed up for two year MFA. I cannot even believe that I am doing this thing. I thought I would do this.

Passionistas: What do you think is the most important steps people need to take when they're thinking about making a career change?

Lindsay: I think the first is identifying the pressure that you feel and just starting to be clear about that because if you can't separate what you actually need and what your desires are from the messages that you are getting from other people, that's going to make it really difficult for you to assess if this is the right move for you. So I've always helped people, you know, let's identify and relieve some of that pressure. And then I think the second step is to start to learn as much as you can about what is working and what is not working.

Because as I mentioned, oftentimes we get really hyper-focused on the downsides and if we can zoom out a little bit and really look more broadly and understand, okay, if I know what my strengths are, then I can understand how well is this job that I'm doing currently in line with those strengths. If I understand a lot about the type of environment that I like to work in, then I can start to understand, Oh, it makes total sense why this particular thing is not a good fit for me because it doesn't match up with the environment. So I really advocate for learning as much as you can about what works for you so that you can accurately assess how the current job you have is matching up to those things

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Lindsay Gordon. To learn more about her work as a career coach. Visit ALifeOfOptions.com. Now here's more of our interview with Lindsay.

Passionistas: You're obviously very confident, but do you ever get self-doubt and how do you get past it?

Lindsay: 100% my goodness, I like to say that running a business I have had highs that are way higher than any nine to five I've had and lows that are way lower than any nine to five I've had. So I think it's so common as a business owner to have self-doubt. Um, I remember several times, especially in that first year where I just got rocked by something. You know, it is, it is very personal for the product to be you, right? Everything that I've created comes from my mind. It's my ideas. I'm out there selling myself. And so in the beginning it does feel very personal if people are saying no to you. I remember the first time where I felt like maybe the client wasn't getting exactly what I wanted and you know, really shook my confidence. So it's hard. It still happens. I think that's probably something that never goes away. But I'm better, you know, riding the ebbs and flows.

One thing that I have really appreciated and that has helped with confidence is collecting a group of fantastic women who are also running their business. And we meet virtually once a month and just check in, you know, who feels like their business is broken today. You know, who, um, has some great things to celebrate who has some questions, who's struggling with the time of year that we're in and the low volume of clients or whatever it is. But really just being able to share and not feel like I am alone in my house doing this thing by myself. So that's been huge for me.

Passionistas: What's your best habit?

Lindsay: I think my best habit is reaching out to people. So for whatever reason I have been graced with kind of the excitement and willingness to just reach out to anyone that I find interesting or anyone that I connect with and to see how I might be able to help them. How am I be able to learn about their business? Who I might know that I can connect to? So this group of women that I've created, I think it's probably 30 or 40 women at this point, and it's really just anyone who I come across, I could see your name in a newsletter, I could, you know, hear about you from a friend and I'll reach out. And if I think you're fantastic and I want you in kind of my circle of entrepreneurs, I will invite you to this group and to collaborate on workshops with me.

So I think kind of that feeling of connection and building the community that I want has always been something that comes really easily to me. So kind of explain it as I aggressively friend people, but I think I get to meet a lot of interesting people that way and people actually respond really positively to somebody reaching out and saying, Hey, I think you're fantastic. I would love to hear more about what you're up to and how I might support you.

And I actually, when I first started running the business full time, I did not think I was going to like it because of how lonely it was. I am already an introvert and so I'm at risk of, you know, not leaving my house for four days if I'm just working at home by myself. And so because I knew that was something that I was worried about, I really made an intentional effort to build a community. And that's something I help clients do too. If you're worried about anything, like, I don't know if this career is going to be a good fit for me for this, that and the other reason. That's so helpful because then we get to design around that. We get to take intentional action to figure that out, so I definitely knew that that was something I was going to struggle with and I needed to work hard at it to make sure I enjoyed running my own business.

Passionistas: Is there a lesson that you've learned so far on your journey that really sticks with you?

Lindsay: I think the lesson that we get to change our mind, we get to change our career. We get to try new things and it is never too late. I hear the message a lot that, well, I studied this in college. I'm not using my degree. Well, I've already been in this area for so many years and I just, I don't want people to feel that way. I want people to feel like their career is a long and varied path. Who knows how it's going to go. There's going to be a lot of serendipity be open to falling into things.

I think for me, you know, engineering to customer service to running your own business as a career coach makes no logical sense if you were to explain it in that way. And I think people get really wrapped up in, you know, well it looks really chaotic, the things that I've done, but there's a way in which I can tell my story where it has always been about listening to people, understanding their challenges, building frameworks and experiences for them to inspire them to take action. And that's been true across engineering, technical support and career coaching. And so I want people to feel like there's more playfulness and fun and curiosity and serendipity that goes along with career rather than feeling like I have to do this one thing because that's where I landed.

Passionistas: Do you think there's a personality trait that you possess that's helped you succeed?

Lindsay: I think curiosity is probably one of the biggest things that is just constantly running for me. And I'm curious. So I was curious about the onboarding of new hire experience and started talking to them. Somebody mentioned a coach. I was really curious about that. And so I think I love following that curiosity and learning about these interesting opportunities that I hear about and it really opens up a lot of doors. If you follow your curiosity.

Passionistas: What's been the most rewarding part of your career?

Lindsay: As a business owner, I have never felt more creative and impactful. I get to design things and come up with ideas as often as I want. Designing programs, designing workshops, designing exercises for people. I absolutely love that part of it. And then as far as impact, it's an incredible feeling to know that every result that I get, I made that happen through my courage, through my creativity, through my gifts, through my actions, through my requests. And so it's a very direct, I put effort in and I get results. And so it's very exciting to me to be able to feel those two pieces every day. And I think that's my favorite part of being able to run my own thing.

Passionistas: And have you had professional mentors?

Lindsay: Yes. That word always feels so big to me if like, Oh my gosh, do I have an official mentor? Yes, of course. I have had people who have been so thoughtful throughout my career. One that comes to mind is my most recent manager at Google who has been a fantastic support for me and has believed in my business probably before I even did. So he's been fantastic. There are also people who, one person that comes to mind, you know, I, she was a woman who had been running her business for a little bit longer than I had and when I started running my business and have this reaching out thing that I do, I reached out to a lot of other women and said, I would love to learn from you, you know, learn about how your business is going and see if there are ways that I can support you. And one of the things that she did is she said, Oh, I referred you to this other person, but I told them that your rates were higher than they are because you're actually charging too little.

And you know, even moments like that, I consider that to be such a gift. And you know, a moment of mentorship where somebody who was a little bit further along than me was able to support me and you know, teach me something that I didn't know. So I'm always looking for those opportunities to, to be able to do that to another woman who's just starting a business of like, Oh, you're undercharging yourself. Great. I'm going to send you to somebody and tell them that you, your rates are higher. So things like that, there've been so many people along the way, especially in building a business that have been so supportive. And I think we sometimes hear this question of why don't women support women? And from my personal experience, I have not found that to be true at all. I have found the most supportive women who are running their businesses, who are all about let's help each other so that we can all thrive. So I've been really happy to see that be the case and I want to help continue, you know, being somebody who supports others.

Passionistas: Do you have a mantra that you live by?

Lindsay: One of the ones that always sticks in my head is the proverb around the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is now. Um, and another one that I use in business that comes from one of my, another one of my business mentor is a business coach. Um, that has been fantastic to work with is it's not a question of if it's a question of when. And so as I go about my business and as I think about the impact that I want to make, it's not a question of if I will make that impact, it's a question of when I will make that impact.

Passionistas: What's your definition of success?

Lindsay: Making choice of the feel good to you? I think doing the things that are important to you, living in line with your own values and for me having some sort of positive impact as well. So I, I, I want to lead a great life that does something great for the world that has an impact on other people. And success is, you know, doing that in line with the way that I want to live life.

Passionistas: What do you wish women knew?

Lindsay: It's okay to do what's right for you? I think is my simple message across my business. I have a, a controversial message that it's okay to have a boring job if it works for you. And I think we need more messages like that where actually we get to choose, you know, identify what's right for you and then do that.

I have a, one of my most earliest clients had a really high paying lawyer job and everyone around her in her community was saying, um, you're being under-utilized. This job was not challenging enough. You should get out of there and be doing something more. And so she came to me and was like, yeah, I'm being kind of under-utilized at my job and I'm being well paid. So I don't really know how to think about this. And once we started discovering what was most important to her, she found that providing financial support for her then young son was the most important thing for her. And so she was able to make this really confident decision that actually this job gives me exactly what I need right now. It pays me really well. It allows me to provide that financial stability and I actually have extra mental energy and time to be able to go and spend it with my son.

And so to see her make that decision, even though everyone around her was saying, you should be challenged more or you should be utilized more, you know, was such a powerful moment. So the more that women can feel like it is okay for them to identify what works for them, even if it feels controversial, even if it's against the, you know, messages that they're getting from society and from their family, I would just be happy if that is part of my legacy of getting women to, to feel like they have agency and can make the choices that feel good to them.

Passionistas: What's your dream for yourself?

Lindsay: To live life courageously, to always be taking action and having an impact in the world and being able to follow my interests. I just want to lead a courageous, exciting, adventurous life that hopefully inspires other people to do the same with the things that are important to them.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Lindsay Gordon. To learn more about her work as a career coach, visit ALifeOfOptions.com. Please visit the PassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and our new subscription box filled with products made by women-owned businesses and female artisans. To inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list to get 10% off your first purchase, and be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Caleigh founded RoHo after falling in love with a pair of beaded sandals in a craft market in Kampala, Uganda. Breaking through language barriers, Caleigh teamed up with a Kenyan woman named Lydia and launched a company that focuses on social change by empowering women. Profits from RoHo fund artisan development as well as women's and environmental initiatives in Kenya and the United States.

Learn more about Caleigh.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. Today we're talking with Caleigh Hernandez. In 2014 Caleigh founded RoHo, after falling in love with a pair of beaded sandals in a craft market in Kampala, Uganda. Breaking through language barriers, Caleigh teamed up with a Kenyan woman named Lydia and launched a company that focuses on social change by empowering women profits from RoHo fund, artisan development, women's and environmental initiatives in Kenya and the United States.

So please welcome to the show, Caleigh Hernandez.

Caleigh: Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Passionistas: What's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Caleigh: I am most passionate about making global change. So for me that's RoHo. That's this company I founded, but I just see, you know, I have had so many opportunities in my life and it would be a waste if I didn't do something meaningful with them.

Passionistas: Talk about that. What were those opportunities that led you to founding RoHo?

Caleigh: First and foremost, I come from a low income background, my family in the US and so that kind of gave me firsthand knowledge and insight into kind of what it is like to grow up with fewer opportunities in the US but at the same time, you know, I still had access to quality schools. Um, I, you know, I had really supportive parents who pushed education. We had more resources available to us than the average person across the world. So, you know, as I graduated high school and then I went off to university, I became really motivated to help other people get access to opportunities. What I've seen, you know, in my travels across the world as well as just here in the US is that, you know, poverty, yes, it's a lack of material possession, but it is as well an absence of opportunity.

Passionistas: Tell us about the journey to founding RoHo.

Caleigh: So I was in college and I began studying international development, which is essentially how we bring the poorest of the poor out of poverty. And this can be done through education, through, you know, economic opportunities through access to clean water.

Passionistas: But RoHo is more than just a shoe company. So talk about the way you built the business to inspire social change in Africa.

Caleigh: We say that RoHo is more than a shoe and it is now because we've expanded to a number of products. But it also means that we're committed to social change. And we do that typically in three ways. So through our beautiful products or ethical work at our economic empowerment. So in terms of our beautiful products, each product is handcrafted and hand tools by artisans in Kenya. We started with our beaded leather sandals, but we now have a line of Fair Trade jewelry that's made by 280 women in the South of Kenya and a collection of cow hide bags and other accessories that are made in Nairobi by a group of 40 artisans there.

Passionistas: Thank you for everything you do.

Caleigh: To be honest, I couldn't do it without consumers who see our products and know that it's, you know, they're more than just a pair of shoes or a beautiful bag and yes, they're beautiful and they're interesting and unique, but it's more than that. When you see a pair of our shoes. I really want consumers to see them as works of art and to know that there were several hands involved in this process and that wasn't, you are wearing a pair of our shoes or dawning a jewelry item or whatever that, that there's a story behind it.

Caleigh: It's all been kind of happenstance, but it really couldn't have happened if I hadn't been living over in East Africa, especially Kenya for as long as I was. I just had friends and communications with a number of different artists and groups as I was over there. You know, I'm not normally a big shopper. It's really funny, but when I was in Kenya I just fell in love with the products that were available. So as I would travel around the country for work and just come across different groups. I will say though, I found our jewelry artisans, the group of 280 Mussai women in the South of Kenya, they live just outside of the national park on the base close to Kilimanjaro actually, which is in Tanzania, but they like right at the border of Tanzania and I found them in, I'm based in Santa Barbara and I found them through a nonprofit that's based in Santa Barbara as well that's working in this community in Southern Kenya and I knew it was a friend of mine who was working with this community of 280 women selling their jewelry here in the U S and just so passionate about what she did but was running another nonprofit and didn't have the time to commit to really bringing the jewelry designs up to fruition.

Passionistas: How did you learn how to do this because you didn't have any experience right? In this type of business. So how did you learn to do this?

Caleigh: I have been really fortunate in that I am young and I am excited about this and passionate about what I do and I'm not too proud to ask for help. So a number of people who I've shared this idea with have kind of flocked to me in the sense that they have been like, okay, well I know someone who can help you with this. I know someone who can help you with this. I will never underestimate the power of buying someone coffee and picking their brain if they're willing to take the time to do that. That has been just hugely, hugely helpful for me is just saying, okay, I don't know what the heck it looks like to launch a business.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Caleigh Hernandez to learn more about how she inspires social change and empowers women in Kenya, visit RoHoGoods.com.

Now here's more of our interview with Caleigh.

Passionistas: Is there one personal lesson that you've learned during your journey that sticks with you?

Caleigh: There are many and a lot of them still working on for sure. I would say today a big lesson I've learned is patience. I'm used to being the type of person where like if I work hard enough for something, whatever I am working on will happen. And this has been a lot slower of a process because of the fact that I'm working on a company where that's 8,000 away and there are language barriers and there's communication mishaps. And what I'm doing isn't exactly mainstream. I mean it's amazing that consumers are requesting from companies more and more that there be some sort of social mission, but it's not an everyday thing. And so I'm competing against mid level luxury brands who don't have a social mission and who aren't allocating a large percentage of sales back into the communities where they're working.

Passionistas: Looking back at the journey you've been on so far, is there one decision that you made that you think really changed the path that you've been walking down?

Caleigh: Forfeiting financial security immediately was the path that put me where I am today and it's an uncomfortable position for sure because there's not a huge safety net, but knowing that impact and doing something good in the world was more important than me making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Passionistas: What's your definition of success?

Caleigh: It's ever changing. I would say right now I would say it is balance. I'm working on finding a little bit more balance in my life. So healthy quality relationships with friends and family and loved ones. Some semblance of like financial security and finding meaning in one way, shape or form. I used to think it meant being entirely successful in a career and don't get me wrong, and there's nothing wrong with being recognized for doing good work, but that's not the end all be all for me at least.

Passionistas: What's your secret to a rewarding life?

Caleigh: It is finding a way to fulfill a passion in your life. So for me, of course that's, I found this way to give back through RoHo and not that I suggest everyone goes and starts a company in Kenya. I mean, if you can, if you want to reach out to me and we'll, you know, network but, but just that find something that really lights a fire under you and pursue that.

Passionistas: So what's your dream for the female artisans that work with you through RoHo?

Caleigh: The typical idea of an artisan in Kenya or some a craftsperson in Kenya. These people are largely women and they are typically women who are paid or earn money below the poverty line. So with RoHo, I see us creating a very solid, stable middle-class for our artisans. I want our artisans to stay with us for years, and I want, I want their children to grow up and have opportunities that day themselves did not.

Passionistas: And what's your dream for yourself?

Caleigh: I want to be a change maker in the ethical fashion space. I want to help influence other companies into being more impactful with the sourcing of their materials and who makes their products.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Caleigh Hernandez to learn more about how she inspires social change and empowers women in Kenya visit RoHoGoods.com.

Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and new subscription box filled with products made by women-owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list to get 10% off your first purchase.

And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hannah Gordon is one of the highest ranking female executives in the NFL as Chief Administrative Officer and General Counsel of the San Francisco 49ers. On Sunday, February 2, her team will go head-to-head against the Kansas City Chiefs in Miami, Florida with the hopes of taking home their sixth Super Bowl championship. Over almost nine years with the Niners, Hannah has taken on initiatives like diversity in hiring, and fan clubs for both female fans and the LGBT community.

Learn more about Hanna.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Hannah Gordon, one of the highest ranking female executives in the NFL. Hannah is chief administrative officer and general counsel of the San Francisco 49ers. And on Sunday, February 2nd, her team will go head to head against the Kansas city chiefs in Miami, Florida with the hopes of taking home their six championship in the Super Bowl. So please welcome to the show, Hannah Gordon.

Hannah: Thank you ladies for having me on.

Passionistas: What's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Hannah: People. I mean, I guess that's kind of a big answer, but if I had to pick one thing to be passionate about, it would be people. And that's why I do what I do because I love working with people and I like observing people.

Passionistas: So how does that translate into what you do?

Hannah: Well, the great thing about what I do is I get to work with every person at the 49ers pretty much every sort of group. And that ranges from our players to our janitorial staff, to our engineers in the stadium, to our sales groups to the groups that I lead, which would be community relations, the foundation, youth football, the museum, risk management, legal, public affairs and strategic communications. And so I think both the experience of leading a team as well as the experience of getting to work with a lot of different people who come from different sort of subcultures. I think oftentimes if you come from a certain type of work. So for example, I worked for a law firm early in my career and in a law firm you kind of have mostly one type of person, lawyers. And it's much more interesting to be on the world where there's lots of different types of people.

Passionistas: Were you a football fan growing up?

Hannah: No, I was not. I was a fan of Barbie dolls and fashion and I thought I would grow up to be a costume designer or something of that nature. And then I discovered that I didn't have a lot of patience for sewing, which sewing requires a lot of patience. And I also wasn't happy with my skills artistically. And so I started focusing more on things like journalism. And when I got to UCLA where I went for undergrad after growing up in Oakland, I really fell in love with sports there. So that was for me, kind of the beginning of me falling in love with football was just being there. I was quite homesick and started watching a ton of football and basketball on television and it was really seeing Hannah Storm host the halftime during the NBA playoffs my freshman year, that I thought, Oh, you know what, that looks like a really cool job. People connection again, you know, you get to sit around with people and talk about sports. And that seems really cool. How do I learn more about that? And so that's how I kind of got into journalism at UCLA and covered the football team there. And once I was in football, then, you know, it was over for me.

Passionistas: Talk about that journey from it being over for you to getting to the 49ers.

Hannah: From UCLA falling in love with football. I had to figure out, all right, how do I stay in this? After I graduated from college? So I started doing internships. I interned my junior year for the Oakland Raiders as a PR intern and that was my first Super Bowl. Um, so this is actually my third Super Bowl that I'm going to. I was very blessed that I was a training camp intern for them, but because I was from Oakland, I would come home on holidays or long weekends and work for them. And then when they made it to the Super Bowl, the Super Bowl was in San Diego and this was back when there was no Pro Bowl was an in between. So there was only a week between when you won the conference championship and you had to play in the Super Bowl. And so they won the AFC championship and they called me and they said, get in the car, drive to San Diego.

And I said, Oh my gosh, but I have class tomorrow. It's the Super Bowl get in the car. So I worked that week. and it was a great experience. It didn't end, obviously the way that we wanted to, but but it was an incredible experience and I did a lot of other internships. I interned for Fox sports West. After I graduated from college, I worked at the NFL players association, which is the players union, creating digital content for their website at a time when people were really just starting to figure out what digital content was. I don't even think we called it digital content though. We just called it the websit, but, but it was creating a lot of new content that they had never had before. From what I called at that time player journals, which were sort of what we would now maybe think of as like an equivalent of like social media or a blog or a vlog type of situation, to a DJ contest.

I did players of the week awards and after I'm working there, I went to the university of California at Berkeley where I worked in their media relations department. And handled football, track and swimming. And then while I was there, I applied to law schools and after I got into law school, I decided to take six months to go work at a sports agency. For those of you who remember the movie Jerry McGuire, I was sort of, exploring that route of being a sports agent. And then I started law school at Stanford and while I was at Stanford, I went back to the Oakland Raiders as a law clerk. Then I worked after law school as a lawyer at a law firm. And then I ended up at the NFL league office in New York for a couple of years. And from there I was recruited to come to the 49ers and this is now the conclusion of ninth season here.

Passionistas: So were there a lot of opportunities for women at the time when you first joined the 49ers?

Hannah: I would say yes, when I joined the 49ers cause it's only eight and a half years ago. Those things have, I've seen a lot of change even in the last eight and a half years. I was talking to a young woman who's the girlfriend of one of our players who's currently in law school, and who has some interest in sports agent work. And we were talking about, you know, early in my career, 15 plus years ago, and she was like, "Ooh, they weren't ready for you back then." And I started to laugh because I forget. I think it's very easy to forget when it's our own life, sort of how much things have changed and how historical that is to young people. I'm like, to me, I was like, Oh wait, I forgot. That's actually a long time ago. Um, and things really have changed.

But from her perspective, I also really appreciated that she had a lot of appreciation for people who came before her helping make that path, hopefully that much easier. So yeah, there has been a lot of change in the last 20 years that I have worked in the business. And, and probably the most rapid change at least in a visible way in certain parts of the business in the last five years, but that doesn't mean there's not still a long way to go. No different I think than every other industry in the United States where the, the area where there still needs to be progress is primarily at the very top. You're not seeing a lot of women in C-suite positions or most importantly in president, CEO type positions. But that's the case whether you're looking at tech or sports or pretty much anything.

Passionistas: One position that is making the news a lot right now is Katie Sowers, who's the assistant coach and the first female assistant coach to go to a Super Bowl. Do you have a lot of interaction with her?

Hannah: I do. I'm very proud of her. She's an awesome person. And when I was referencing that there's been rapid progress in the last five years in certain sectors. The business, that's really what I was referring to is the, the um, pipeline positions in the football side is where you've seen the most dramatic change in the last five years. And that's really because of a concerted effort to create that change league wide. And so you are seeing like for our club, when I started, almost nine years ago, there were no women in coaching scouting or athletic training roles. And five years ago we hired our first female athletic trainer and since she's been here, not only has she been just an incredible person for everyone to work with, but it opens more doors where ever since she's been here. We've had a full season female athletic training intern and at least one often to training camp, athletic training interns.

So again, creating more, more opportunity. And I think, you know, as the great job that she did that helps open the door. Then they, Katie joined us, I believe three seasons ago. And then two seasons ago we hired our first female scout. So we've seen in some of the roles that are not football roles, but are certainly, um, more adjacent to that part of the business, some growth as well. We have, we hired our first, um, on-staff female team photographer, uh, also about three seasons ago. And similar roles in terms of like team reporter and things of that nature.

Passionistas: And the 49ers is the first team in the NFL to commit to interviewing at least one woman inand one person of color for every business opening. And you've been a big part of that initiative. So why is that important to you personally?

Hannah: Well, I think it's important as a business that you have the best people. This is still a talent based, not only industry, but I would think pretty much any business business you're running, talent is, is at a premium and you're not going to get the best talent if you don't overcome people's unconscious bias. And so I was actually just talking with our Executive Vice President of Operations and President of 49ers Enterprises, Paraag Marathe who recruited me to come here. And I was saying that I still to this day often explain the business case for diversity to people in the same terms that he explained it to me many years ago, which is that it's really an arbitrage opportunity. So essentially you have a economic system that is not working rationally, which means if you are rational and recognize that there's a diversity gap, then you're able to actually get better talent than other people have because you're finding the talent that has been overlooked. And Paraag is actually being honored next week just before Super Bowl by the Fritz Pollard Alliance as their salute to excellence award winner for the year. So very, very happy for him.

Passionistas: So now you've risen through the ranks over the last eight and a half years. So tell us how your position has evolved with the team and your current responsibilities.

Hannah: I think the big change for me was learning how to go from being an individual contributor to being a team leader. That was a big, big shift in his daily responsibilities, and so starting out in purely a legal role and really as that individual contributor. I think one of the things that made a big difference to me was I was having trouble agreeing that I should be hiring more people to help before I started adopting other departments. Um, and somebody sat me down and was like, Hannah, you are never going to be able to grow as long as you always think you have to do everything yourself, like you have to learn to delegate. And that really, that really helped me, that really me see things in a new light. And once I learned to do that, it allowed me to keep growing and be able to take on more and more because there is, you know, only so many hours in a day. There's only so much one person can do. If you're focused on doing the work yourself

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Hannah Gordon. Don't forget to tune into the Super Bowl on February 2nd at 6:30 PM Eastern 3:30 PM Pacific on Fox when the San Francisco 49ers take on the Kansas City Chiefs. Now here's more of our interview with Hannah.

You also oversee fan groups like women of the Niners and 49ers Pride for the LGBTQ fans. So talk about those initiatives and why, again, why they're important to you.

Hannah: I'll start with 49ers pride, which is our newest fan engagement program. That is a program that's as you noted for our LGBTQ plus fans, but also for our allies. So it's not just for one type of person. Cause I think one of the things that really resonates with our fans is that we recognize that they look to see their values reflected in us. And I think as the team of the San Francisco Bay area, we very much do reflect the progressive values of this region. And so for us it was really natural to see, okay, where is there a part of our fan demographic that maybe historically hasn't been focused on or served in, in the overall experience of sports in America in the same way. Not that they weren't necessarily, enjoying being 49ers, but how can we even elevate that experience and create more community.

And so we launched 49ers Pride at a town hall that we did with the San Jose State Institute for the study of sport society and social change. And we had an incredible discussion around a lot of issues of gender identity and LGBTQ plus activism in sport there. And then we launched this fan engagement platform and the response was really overwhelming. The, the videos we received from people in tears just saying how much it meant to them that they'd been 49ers fans for their whole lives, that they'd never felt excluded by the 49ers but they also now really felt included in a way that they'd never felt before. And there was just overwhelming, like response on social media and emails and so many other things. We had over a thousand people sign up and that first week and we followed that up within in June, marching in the San Francisco pride parade. We had over 150 employees, family members, fans, all part of our float and had just the best time, so much fun.

And then this fall we did another event, bringing people together in person again to build community as 49ers fans and we did a away game watch party in the Castro, which for those who don't know is a historically gay neighborhood in San Francisco, and I'm pretty sure it's the first drag queen half time that I've ever heard of, at least sponsored by an NFL team, is awesome. So it's a really fun, cool, way for people to just celebrate and enjoy being 49ers fans and have a community.

And then you asked also about our women's official club. So WON: Women of the Niners is our official women's club. And that's something we've had for a long time. But we did rebrand a couple of years ago, to try to reach an even broader swath of fans. You know, we want to be reaching all of our fans, which very much includes the women who make up almost 50% of our fan base, and given what a kind of a big number that is, it's also a very diverse fan base. So we have women fans who are 14 years old. We have women fans who are 94 years old. We have women fans of every ethnicity, every socioeconomic background, and every level of fan ability. So we have extremely avid fans who want to see us breaking down all the X's and O's for them. And then we have casual fans who are interested in some of the storylines, some of the personal stories behind our players and their families and where they've come from, but who may or may not feel like they've gotten enough of an education in the game to fully enjoy and appreciate the game. And so we try to meet everyone where they're at and ensure that they both feel a part of the 49ers and that they're getting what they need to, to really, enjoy the game and be passionate about our team. So those are those two of our fan engagement clubs.

Passionistas: So what does your week leading up to the Super Bowl look like? What do you do next week?

Hannah: There is a lot happening. The team will leave on Sunday. All other staff and friends and family will leave on Thursday. There's a lot of preparation work that goes into a Super Bowl for participating teams. A lot of it is handled by the NFL. They make it as easy as they can on participating teams, but there's still certainly, our legal team has been cranking away on everything from hotel agreements, us travel agreements. When you have a travel party of about 2000 people that you need to get across the country and then move around in a city that's going to be packed with millions of people, it's a pretty intense experience. So there's a lot logistically that goes into all of that. It'll be, it'll be a busy week, but a really fun week. So the game is on Sunday. People will largely kind of be, you know, there's a lot of different events that happen in the couple of days, the lead up to the Super Bowl, but we're also very focused on, you know, we're coming there with a job to do and that's to win that game.

Passionistas:  How do all the departments work together leading up to the Super Bowl?

Hannah: Everybody works together kind of regardless, because none of this happens without a lot of collaboration. So you've got folks from stadium operations who have already flown down to Miami to start setting things up. You've got folks from the football travel logistics side. We're also already there, our community relations team does a lot of support around the family members of our players. So there'll be hunting down early, making sure that we have daycare and resource centers and making sure everybody has all the information they need to have a really wonderful trip and celebrate their family member who's going to be competing on the field. So every it takes, I mean to say it takes a village would be sounded cliche, but it definitely takes a full, a 400 person organization to do it.

Passionistas: So what's the most rewarding part of what you do?

Hannah: I'll tell you two things that happened in the last week that I think sort of epitomized regardless of when we are in season. What's the most rewarding after the NFC championship? Seeing the faces of our players and coaches and staff who were so elated, that was truly rewarding. That's what you're working towards is that feeling of accomplishment and communal experience because it's also the, the feeling that our fans had in the stands. I think if you have not been to a football game in person, it's such a powerful communal experience that doesn't happen in a lot of other ways in American culture anymore. There aren't a lot of places where people come together in person and drop whatever is happening else wa elsewise in their lives or around them and have this incredible really community experience where you're having this shared emotion with 68,000 other people. Um, it's very unique. And so that is one of the most rewarding parts.

And then the other most rewarding part is the work that I've been able to do over the last few years with everything that we do in the community. And about a week and a half ago, one of the events that we did was for Martin Luther King day. We went and did reading with kindergartners and first graders at an elementary school and the little girl who I was assigned to be her reading partner. Oh my God. Like that sweet little face. Like I just like that is the most rewarding part when you, when you, you know, because the reality is like, at first I was like, she's not gonna want to read with me. Like I'm not a player, but it then you're reminded anytime you're with children that they're excited just cause you're an adult just because you have taken an interest in them and that you are there to help them. And so for me, the community work that we do, the joy that we're able to bring to other people, that is the other most rewarding part.

Passionistas: What do you think is the biggest risk that you've taken professionally and how did it pay off?

Hannah: I would say the biggest risk I probably took professionally was when I took the job, sort of the weight in order to take the job with the NFL because I was, I made half as much money at the NFL as I had been making it a law firm. Um, so that's always more risky. Um, and in the process I had actually been laid off in the like wake of like bloodbath of 2009 when law firms, including the one I was at, laid off 20% plus of associates. Um, and so I, I made the decision after that that I did not want to go back to working in another soulless life sucking job. Um, and even though I knew that the job I'd had, I was very blessed to have and allowed me to pay my bills. It paid very well. It was very prestigious, but it didn't feel true to me.

And so I wanted to do something that I felt passionate about and I knew that I was passionate about sports and that was what I really wanted to be working in. Now deciding that I was going to pursue that in the midst of the worst economic recession since the great depression was, you know, maybe not the best idea. Um, but I, you know, I waited until I got the job that I really wanted and that took six months between the time I stopped working, the time I started again. And that was terrifying. But that is certainly the risk that paid off because here I am now. So do you think there's a particular personality trait that you possessed that's helped you succeed in your career drive? I am a relentlessly driven person. Um, and I think that, I mean, you guys talk to Lindsay who I've worked with and so one of the amazing things that Lindsay does is really help you, um, define your strengths.

And so I was able with her to be able, like I already knew that, you know, being relentlessly driven was one of my strengths is also one of my weaknesses, but being able to very clearly say, yep, you know, drive, finish, you know, command competition, like here, here are my strengths. So yeah, I think certainly in sports a lot of us are very competitive people as part of why we're attracted to sports. Um, but I, I would say that, yeah, focus, drive, competition, command. Um, those would be, and, and relating to people. I would say that that's sort of my, my strengths that have, have worked out well for the career that I'm in.

Passionistas: You mentioned career coach Lindsay Gordon who nominated you. She told us that you're really supportive of women who are working in male dominated industries. What are some of the ways you've given women your support?

Hannah: Probably mostly through mentoring others, but also through all of the policy changes that we've talked before from our diversity interviewing policy to the fellowship that we created here. That is a rotational fellowship that gets a young woman who's just graduated from college into verticals where women are historically underrepresented, um, like sales, like finance, like business strategy and analytics because that really helps kind of change the future of what the pipeline looks like in those fields where, um, the ascent to the top is much more rapid and, and is actually viable cause there's a lot of protocols where that's not viable. Um, so I'd say both policy-wise and then, um, I really, I love mentoring younger people and so, um, whether it's somebody who's asking to have coffee, um, or somebody who has either worked for me or whatever it is, um, I love, I love hearing just what's going on in their lives and seeing the excitement they have about whatever is kinda up next for them.

Passionistas: Do you have a mantra that you live by?

Hannah:  I do not. I'm not really a mantra girl. I mean, I think they're lovely for like meditation and whatnot. But no, I don't have like three words that I live by. Although someone asked, I'm going to steal someone else's, someone asked our team reporter that question. And she was like, ''Oh, stay ready so you don't have to get ready. And I was like, ooh, I like that. Like that's a good just tip reminder for whatever you're doing. Stay ready so you don't have to get ready.

Passionistas: So what advice would you give to a young woman who wants to get into professional sports?

Hannah: Work really hard and work smart. So understand, and I say this to all young people who are looking to get into sports. The impression that you leave as a young person, um, is very important because this is a small industry at the end of the day and very relationship base. And so you want to be that first one in last one out. You want to demonstrate that work ethic, um, and your commitment to what your, your, your craft and what you're doing. And I also tell you when people, because sports is just an industry and it's not uh, a particular career, right? You could want to be a coach in sports. You could want to be a lawyer in sports. You could want to be a broadcast or in sports. And so you also need to have a commitment to whatever the craft is, the it is the you want to do in sports and to commit to being totally excellent at it because to make it in this business, you have to be the best at what you do.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Hannah Gordon. Tune into the Super Bowl on February 2nd at 6:30 PM Eastern, 3:30 PM Pacific on Fox when Hannah's team, the San Francisco 49ers take on the Kansas City Chiefs.

Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and our new subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions, sign up for our mailing list to get 10% off your first purchase.

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Marla Isackson is the founder of the OSSA Collective and host of the Mind of a Mentor podcast. A former marketing executive for corporations like American Express, WebMD and Barnes and Noble, Marla formed Like a Boss Girls in 2004. The website was created for and about women to help and inspire them to make a living, make a difference, and make it big. In 2018, Marla rebranded her site as Ossa, a podcast network for female thought leaders dedicated to promoting social progress through the oldest form of communication and storytelling: the spoken word.

Learn more about Marla and OSSA.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Marla Isackson. A former marketing executive for corporations like American express, WebMD and Barnes and Noble, Marla formed Like a Boss Girls in 2004. The website was created for and about women to help inspire them to make a living, make a difference and make it big.

In 2018 Marla rebranded her site as Ossa, a podcast network for female thought leaders dedicated to promoting social progress through the oldest form of communication and storytelling — the spoken word.

So please welcome to the show, Marla Isackson.

Marla: Thank you so much for having me today. I'm really excited to be on. I really appreciate it.

Passionistas: Marla, what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Marla: utting family aside, 'cause I'm most passionate about that. I would say that I'm really passionate about what I'm doing because I really feel that our mission with Ossa or my mission, I should say, is to really help elevate the voices of women. And I've been working at this for a long time, both with Like a Boss Girls and us. The bottom line, I want to make sure women really do have a seat at the table. That's so important to me.

Passionistas: Why?

Marla: Because we have a lot to say. I've been in a situation where I've been invited to the table, but then I'm been ignored through the process of developing Like a Boss Girls and Ossa. I've worked with some incredible women. I've met incredible women and I'm just impressed with how much value they can add to the conversation. So that's why I think it's important for women to be at the table and to be encouraged to contribute. We have a lot to offer. I've had the opportunity to work with some incredible women in my corporate life as well as with Like a Boss Girls and with Ossa I have learned and experienced that women have a tremendous amount of value to add and for women not to be having a seat at the table. It's an incomplete conversation.

Passionistas: Let's take a step back and you started your career in marketing, so tell us about that and some of the challenges you had working with these big corporations.

Marla: I'll take a step further back, which is I first started my life in retailing working for a department store that's not in existence anymore called Abraham and Straus. I learned a lot about the customer at that point. After two years I realized I could leverage that experience and knowledge and start my marketing career. So I've had the opportunity to work for a big company such as Citibank and American express, Barnes and noble and Web MD. And I honestly thought they were incredible opportunities. I felt very grateful. I worked hard. I learned a lot. I am who I am now because of the experiences I had working at these companies. I learned I, it was incredible on the job training. I have to say that and I loved meeting really cool people from different walks of life. It was a great experience. I can't deny it. I'm very, very glad that I had the opportunity to do so.

Passionistas: Talk a little bit about the challenges you faced being a woman with a lot of male colleagues.

Marla: I worked in corporate America during the time when there was a lot of conversation about the glass ceiling. So for example, not to date myself, but when I started working for the bank, I mean people walked around with a little bow ties what women did. So it was just a different world then. It's not that people were overtly hostile to women, but we felt very snubbed. And that was part of the issue. I think things began to change when more and more women were promoted into areas of importance. And then women were encouraged to speak at the table. But I will tell you that, you know, I definitely experienced times in these big companies where we'd be in a big conference and there'd be a lot of people around and I would say something and I would get ignored.

And then a guy would say the same thing and they would be like, Oh my gosh, what a wonderful idea. And that used to irritate me and it didn't just happen to me. It happened to a lot of women. And you know, I remember talking about it with some colleagues and we just were not sure how to crack the code. I mean, we tried different, you know, you know, standing up or speaking with a different tone and voice, but it didn't matter. So we weren't able to crack that code. But I absolutely experienced that situation on a number of occasions. It was really depressing. And I made me so angry because it really took away the value of that. I thought that I was adding to the conversation as well as to the company and that was a problem. There were situations where there are a couple of senior execs, males who, I don't know, maybe a little, we're a little more enlightened, pay attention to it a little bit more.

So I would say something, a guy would say something the same thing I said and, but then the executive would come back to me asking to clarify and add to my point. So you know, I started to see the change, but there were still a lot of situations where that was a problem. You know, there's still a lot of situations where male executives, they'd go golfing and you know, not to say women don't golf, but a lot of us didn't golf. A lot of businesses held when the golf course. So I'm hoping that the generation of today that women are playing golf because that's super important. But it really is a metaphor illustrating the fact that I still felt different. I was the other person. I wasn't one of the crew, I don't even say one of the guys, but I didn't feel like I was one of the gang when we had conversations like this.

Also, many of the senior executives had wives that worked. So I will never forget having the conversation with the senior executive who said, don't worry about it, Marla, you know, your husband makes a lot of money. You know, when, when I was talking about a particular promotion, yeah, that's okay. You know, you'll be, you'll be okay. But he really needs the money. So I'm hoping those kinds of conversations don't still happen, but I will never forget that conversation. I didn't even know it. How do you respond to that? I didn't even know what to say. I was stunned, absolutely stunned. There was situations where I would be, you know, I was hired. This was not a titty bank or American express. And I find out that people working for me, older guys were making more money than I was making. So this stuff went on a lot.

And again, I haven't worked for a big company in a long time, but I certainly hope that there have been some changes that have been made.

Passionistas: Why did you decide to strike out on your own and what was your first project?

Marla: Basically I had great experiences, so the big corporations were incredible just based on the projects I've worked on and the people I managed, the huge marketing budgets that I had. I ended up working for a startup, so I had a bit of that taste of startup and then I worked for a smaller company and I will tell you that honestly I got really exhausted. It was very tiring. I felt like I was consistently having to parrot what they wanted me to say. I didn't feel like I was in control because I wasn't because it wasn't my company. I would certainly voice my opinion when we discussed strategy, but I was not the ultimate decision maker.

And that got me super frustrated and it got to a point where in addition to just feeling kind of exhausted, I also wanted be in a situation where I was affecting the outcome and I was focusing on a project that I felt really passionate about. Not that I didn't love my jobs, I certainly did love them, but I felt it was really time to take that next step and really focus on things that really sing to me.

Passionistas: Tell us about founding Heart of Gold Girls and why you wanted to work with teens specifically.

Marla: That was my first foray into having my own company and I decided to focus on the teen market cause my daughter was a teenager at the time and I really felt that teen girls were not being served the way they should. And this was like very early days internet. So a lot of stuff that teen girls were exposed to was a lot of stuff about celebrities and how to please your man and all this other nonsense.

But I didn't see that there was a whole lot of conversations focusing on really developing as a woman and following your passion and making an impact in the world. So that was quite a number of years ago and I wanted to do something about that. So that's why I founded Heart of Gold Girls and it was a content social media site as well. And we did that for about two years or so. I had a small team of people and then after a while I felt that I could not serve teen girls the way I wanted to serve them. I think, you know, obviously I'm much older and my daughter was not a teen anymore and I just felt like I wasn't close enough to the customer and that made me uncomfortable. So we repositioned to Like a Boss Girls and we were like really the first boss girl thing.

And then all of a sudden afterwards, like everyone is a girl boss, a boss, girl, a boss, babe, whatnot. But basically what I wanted to do was to help women starting out. So either leaving high school or college or postgraduate. I know, again, this is really based on the experiences of my daughter and son. That's a really hard transition to make. It may not be the first time that you're living on your own because a lot of people do go to college, but it's the time that you're really an adult and you have to make some decisions that maybe in the past your parents would make for you. And I felt that that was important and I wanted to create structure. I wanted to create content that would be useful to this population that would really help them make the transition more effectively so that they actually could get to where they wanted to be.

So again, it was a content site and focused on getting a job, money, health and wellness relationships. We covered a whole bunch of different verticals, again, with the mindset of women just starting out in the world who maybe need a little support. The other reason why I did this, again, I'm a like a research nerd and I remember reading a lot of research that when people graduate from college, they often move to towns or cities and they're not from that area and there's a lot of loneliness and not a whole lot of connection. And again, it was as the internet was kicking in, we felt that there was an opportunity to use all these tools to help women feel more connected with each other. And that was another goal.

Passionistas: At what point in your journey did you decide to get into podcasting and why did you do that?

Marla: It was the beginning of 2018 and in a strategy session with my team and we were talking about ways to amplify Like a Boss Girls amplify the brand, extend the brand, have a touch more people. And my team suggested very strongly that I start a podcast, which I really didn't want to do, but I did. And we call it Mind of a Mentor. And again, the structure is about, it does talk about mentoring, but the woman being interviewed is actually the mentor. So essentially she's taking us through her heroic journey, which we all have and talking about challenges, issues, obstacles that they encountered along the way and how they did or did not deal with these issues. So I thought it was a great platform. I would say my first few episodes were horrendous because I was petrified. But then as I got into it, I really enjoyed the medium a lot.

I just said, well this is just a really, really cool, I like the fact that I'm getting to speak with a lot of very interesting women cause Mind of a Mentor does focus on women and it just was really liking the medium. And then I did more research to learn more about podcasting and based on the research, lo and behold, huge opportunity growing channel also found out that women were not monetizing to the level that men were monetizing when it came to podcasting. I think men were involved with podcasting a lot earlier on, so they tended to have the bigger podcasts. And I felt that podcasting was a natural medium for women because I think you can get into both the emotional issues as well as the more practical issues when two women are having a conversation. So did my research, saw that there was an opportunity and decided to take mine to have a mentor to take the concept of podcasting and actually go the next step, which is creating the Ossa platform.

Passionistas: So before we get to Ossa, so tell us a little bit more about the podcast. What types of women do you interview and what have you learned from them?

Marla: I would say that I've interviewed, oh my gosh, all kinds of women. I've interviewed athletes. I've interviewed women in transition, women who have had abusive relationships, women who had seriously horrible childhood. Bottom line is they're all professional women. They all have jobs, they run a business, they have a career. But they've all gone through some really serious issues along the way. And I felt that these stories were really interesting. They're very, very helpful because what they've gone through is not unusual. So there are many women unfortunately who have been in these kinds of situations. So the objective is for someone listening to Mind of a Mentor to be able to say, well, you know, if she could do it then I can do it. And that's the framework.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Marla Isackson. To learn more about her podcast network for female thought leaders, visit OssaCollective.com. Now here's more of our interview with Marla.

Passionistas: Tell us more about Ossa and the mission and how it works for both the podcast or and the advertiser.

Marla: In my mind, the best way to help women accomplish and achieve their goals. A lot of it has to do with financial goals. So you've got to make money. Making money is really important. Having that career is really important. And again, going back to the research and looking at the difference in monetization, I saw that there was a really big gap, which just did not seem right to me. So well the overall objective is really to help women podcasters monetize their podcast and extend their voice.

But we actually are a matching platform, which is very similar to when you go online to select a flight. You put in your criteria and up pops the flights that match your criteria. Ossa is a matching site, so we work with brands, they can leverage the platform, put in their respective criteria, and up pops the podcast that meet that criteria. So we make the match. So we're helping brands make more money reach women that they may not have reached before because of the opportunity to speak to a very targeted group of women in these podcasts. And we're also working with women who love podcasting, but maybe had not cracked the code on how to make money. So that was really the objective.

Passionistas: How do you help smaller podcasters grow their audience and appeal to advertisers?

Marla: Basically? We've done a couple of things. Most recently we launched an eCourse called grow your show and it's a really cool, I love it because we had subject matter experts in our community create each module.

So it's a very like organic kind of course, which is you go on, you take each module, you learn tips, tools, resources in terms of what to do to increase your numbers. But you're hearing from women who have gone through very similar experiences and they bring their own flavor to the conversation. So that's something we're very proud of. We just launched that very recently. So that's one thing. When you become a podcast or on Ossa, you can join our private Facebook group and on Ossa, various online guests, webinars, we record the calls, they're on various topics relating to podcasting and we'd push it out to our members are also podcast members. We have an Ossa special Ossa newsletter for our members where we talk about opportunities, new findings. We will bring in, if there's some news in the podcasting world, we'll connect that information. The other thing we do is, you know, getting back to sort of podcasting news on our content site, which we still have, which is pivoted more towards podcasting.

We try to use it as a tool to make podcasts are smarter about podcasting. So my point is the more information tools and resources we can put in a Podcaster's hands, we feel that hopefully they will use that information to actually focus on growing their numbers. And we're constantly thinking of other new opportunities to help our podcast or community cause it's super important to us.

Passionistas: And is there something that you personally have learned as a podcaster from all of these resources?

Marla: I think a couple of things. The first is that everyone has a story and it doesn't have to be dramatic. You don't have to be the most famous person in the world. But every woman, everyone has a story. And the wisdom that's conveyed during these conversations is remarkable about all different facets of life, work, relationships, parents, etcetera. So I'm enjoying the richness of these conversations and I didn't quite think that that would be the situation.

I don't know what I was expecting, but I didn't quite expect this. So that's a big thing. I have enjoyed meeting just overall some amazing woman that I would not have met in the past. So having the podcast has enabled me to reach out and go beyond my job function and connect with women that there's not a chance that I ever would have met them before and it's made my life richer. So I've enjoyed that.

Passionistas: So do you ever feel unmotivated and if you do, how do you get past it?

Marla: I'm sure many of us have seen the cartoons that show the life of an entrepreneur, which one day you're up, one day you're down. When you're up, one day you're down. And I feel that way. So the thing is that I'm like other entrepreneurs inpatient, I'm wanting things to happen faster than they're happening.

I get cranky when I realized that I could maybe move faster if I had more investment dollars. So these are things that can get to me after a time that can make me wake up and say, Oh, what am I doing? Like really, what am I doing? But then I get on a conversation with my team and I get jazzed again because I see the opportunity. So look, it's really hard to sustain that level of energy every day. And there are ups and downs, but I think what I really try to do is think of my overall goal and just try to be a little more patient, which is not easy, not easy.

Passionistas: Do you have a character trait that you think really helps you keep going?

Marla: I am a bit of a perfectionist, which can be good or bad, but I use the perfectionism as I know something should get done.

It would be great if it would get done. So I make it happen and that process leads to me enhancing my business. So that sort of impatience is, as I said, good and bad. I'm very curious. So I'm on the computer a lot. We have to be careful because that could be the big black hole, but I'm constantly doing research about topics relating to podcasting or the economy because I want to be smarter and I want more knowledge that I can create strategies that will be even more impactful. So I think it's important to be curious and I am super curious. One of the reasons why I enjoy podcasting so much or the act of being a podcast host is that I'm very curious and it gives me an opportunity to ask a whole lot of questions that probably would not be polite for me to ask in any other venue.

But because you're having a conversation on a podcast, I'm free to ask whatever question I want. So I enjoy that. So I think curiosity is probably a really big piece of who I am.

Passionistas: Do you find now that you are asking people questions on the podcast, do you carry that over more into your social personality?

Marla: I think what I've learned from podcasting is to pay more attention. So, for example, with my end of a mentor, I asked women to start in their early days because I'm always trying to listen for themes and threads that I can pull in to the latter part of the conversation. So when a woman is talking about what she's doing now, obviously most cases there's a huge correlation to the way they were as a young girl and their focus and their interests now. So that's kind of what I try to do.

I don't know if it extends to my personal life, but I guess overall I try to be a better listener, let's put it that way. I really do. I think that's an important point. I think it's taught me to be a more patient listener.

Passionistas: Looking back on your whole journey so far, do you think that there was one decision that you consider your most courageous and that sort of changed the trajectory of your path?

Marla: I think there were a couple of key points, but I will tell you that in the summer, because this is a fairly recent experience, I was at one of the major podcast conferences and I started to talk about Ossa in a way that I don't know why I hadn't talked about also this way before I elevated the conversation. I talked about Ossa in a much bigger way and I realized that that was a huge turning point because I actually believe that Ossa can be what I was saying.

It could be more specifically. I decided to go all in and that was a really big decision and that was really a result of this conference I went to, which was like, am I going to make it or not? If I wanna really achieve what I'm saying I want to achieve, I gotta be all in and be super passionate about what I'm doing. That was important. That was just the summer actually. That was a very important turning point for me.

Passionistas: So what's your secret to a rewarding life?

Marla: I think it's a couple of things. Number one, it's just taking a step back and just counting my blessings. It's gratitude. You know, life is not easy. There are ups and downs, but I think for me it's always been important for me to say, wow, I am very grateful. I am grateful that I am where I am, that I have such a great family, that I've been able to build a career. I'd never take anything for granted. So I think it's really a lot has to do with gratitude.

Passionistas: Is there a mantra that you live by?

Marla: Yes. And now my team lives by it. So there's a great digital marketing person who's, I think she's amazing. Her name is Marie Forleo. She's very popular. She does these awesome courses and her mantra is everything is figureoutable. And that's, I've adopted that as my mantra. So so many times my team members, maybe they're flipping out about something, they're worried about something and I'm like, chill, everything is figureoutable. We'll figure it out. No one's dying over this. There is a solution. So to me that has gotten me through some really hairy experiences.

Passionistas: What's your definition of success?

Marla: It's two things. It's being able to really touch a lot of women, cause Ossa is a passion project for me. Yeah, I want to make money, but, but there's a passion and a purpose for what I'm doing.

Also being able to say that I've really was able to help women elevate their voices and expand their podcasts and help them make money. That's super important. And in turn, honestly, me being able to make money is very helpful as well. I mean, I'm not a nonprofit, so the fact that I can earn money doing something that I'm so passionate about that I believe is mission driven to me is a win-win. That's my definition of success.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Marla Isackson. To learn more about her podcast network for female thought leaders, visit OssaCollective.com.

Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and our subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions.

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In 2009, Geri McNiece turned her new-found passion for hula hooping into a business. She’s trained over 1,000 clients at her Texas-based company aRoundJoy. She offers handmade custom hoops, in-person training sessions and online coaching to her long-distance clients. Geri’s mission is to help women learn to move the FUN way.

Learn more about Geri.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy andNancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Geri McNiece. In 2009, Jerry turned her new-found passion for hula hooping into a business. She's trained over a thousand clients at her Texas-based company around joy. She offers handmade custom hoops, in person training sessions and online coaching to her long distance clients. Geri's mission is to help women learn to move the fun way. So please welcome to the show Geri McNiece.

Geri: Nice to be here.

Passionistas: So Geri, what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Geri: Well, my goodness, I actually have been thinking along these lines the last few days knowing that I was going to talk to you and I would say I am most passionate about getting women to move as if they were a younger child. Go back to play and move, like you just don't have an agenda, but to really enjoy and embrace their inner child. And they'd be surprised if they did that. How much joy it really feels like.

Passionistas: Tell us about how that translates into your business.

Geri: Every time I work with a new client, there's either a couple of different ways it can go. It can either be someone who is totally kind of in a zone that they haven't experienced in many, many, many years and they've almost forgotten how to kind of let their guard down and let go. Or I'm working with somebody who is just all about it because they are on this journey themselves of having more fun. They are just jumping in with both feet. So it's either one or the other really usually. And most of the time, unfortunately it's the first one. I'm trying to just let them let go and just experience the moment. And that's hard for a lot of us these days because we're always so attached to digital devices and all of the things that we didn't do when we were kids. When you're a child you explore and you just play for the sake of playing and you're so in the moment. That's what I'm trying to get women to do is to just, you know, let go, leave everything at the door or you know, in this case maybe before you enter my backyard or just let's, let's have a good time and learn how to play because kids do it instinctively.

But playing with a hoop is just that. If you just let yourself play, forget that you're trying to lose weight, forget that you're trying to trim your waist, forget the exercise part of it. It's there. You just have fun with it and let yourself just go. You know what I mean? That's how it translates and I'm so passionate about it because I see at work time and time again.

Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your life before hooping. What did you do for a living and what was your home life like?

Geri: I was raised as almost an only child because my mom and dad had me after. My sisters were like, you know, 10 11 years older than me. So that was a surprise and I was kinda like the Apple of their eye. My sisters, I was their doll baby. As you can imagine, since I was little like that and they were older. I'm Italian and real into music and dance and so my sisters and I both grew up dancing, performing. I got a little bit more into it because I was kind of the only one at home. I just had a love for dance and performing and that stayed with me through high school. I was known as that girl. I was dancing, I was on drill team, I've taught, I did twirled Baton. I was just real into that kind of stuff. And then life happened. I was performing, I had a summer job in theater. And I thought my home was going to be on the stage personally, but it wasn't it and that's okay. Found a guy and got married and I left all that behind to become a wife and mom and I grew up watching my mother and father have a wonderful marriage. So I had aspirations that that was what I would do in life.

I didn't understand it at a younger age that you know, you really have to work hard to make a living and performance and all that and maybe you're not going to get that marriage and family life younger. You're going to have to do the whole career thing in the performing arts before you settle down. I felt more at home doing the home thing and the raising the family thing. I kind of liked it and I think a lot of that had to play into the fact that I lost both my parents by the time I was 24. So not having that cohesive family anymore. I think I longed for it and the performing became kind of backseat. I missed my daddy, I missed my mother, but I missed my daddy first and then that was, I met my husband about that time shortly after just having that solid rock in my life.

I think I longed for that. Because they were my world since my sisters were older and not having that, I realized the egocentric lifestyle sometime of the performers. You have to, you just all about you. Right. And I didn't really feel at home there anymore cause I didn't have family. I really like having a relationship with my husband and or well soon to be, I didn't know at the time, but as we decided we were going to get married and stuff, things just took a different turn for me so I became a wife and mom.

And I worked in banking. I was a bank teller and I loved opening new accounts. I was just a, you know, a worker bee. I didn't perform. I performed at my desk, let's just say that that got me through many years of work was performing at work. I could put on that hat of whatever I needed to be and it got me awards. I had high sales and all that kind of stuff in banking. but once I became a mom, that's when I noticed a shift to go back home again and so I quit working at some point after my second son was born. My boys are three years apart.

Then our whole world changed. When my oldest son went to kindergarten and the very first day of kindergarten the teacher said, 'Can we talk?' And I was like, sure. But I knew he was very hyperactive. That's what they called it, hyperactivity. That was just the word, the buzz thing. But at the same time, my other son was really polar opposite, very relaxed self-sooth and all that. And so I was a consumed mom. But the diagnosis of ADHD took over for my son, my oldest son, and then about, oh, I'd say within six months, maybe even less, the younger one was diagnosed with autism and he was three.

So then I was a mom of these two challenging boys that had these learning disabilities that were apparent, but then not apparent sometime because you know they can be hidden until you kind of see what the child's doing. So in school I was that mom. this took, you know, another 18 to 20 years of my life to navigate that through the schooling stuff. And so yeah, all this performing stuff was way on the back burner. Like, even though that my love of performing art, performing arts, and certainly dance, musicals and all that, everything was in me, but I couldn't do it because I was consumed with my family life. There was a point where I did a couple of shows for my 40th birthday. That's what I wanted to do, was audition. I got cast and had songs and lines and all this stuff.

And I was like, Oh my god. I was still working at the bank. So I mean, it was crazy. So I knew I loved it still. But then I realized after weeks of rehearsal in a six week run of a show, I was like, no, I can't do it. Geri can't do this anymore. I'm not 20 you know? And it was just real hard. But I still loved being out in the public. And I knew I had talent for something. Whether it was writing, because I started to write when my kids were older so that I could on blogs, mommy blogs. Remember when they first started and we were all stalking our children. That's what I did. And I shared stories and I loved doing that. And I said, there's something in me that I still need to get out there. It's something creative. But I didn't know quite what.

I just, I dunno, I kept it, I kept dipping my toe in the writing, which seemed to be the place that I really enjoyed it cause I could do it at home and reflect on my performing and find other theater nerds and dancers. And we talked on, it was just so fun. But at some point, trying to think when it was, I guess my son was a senior, the youngest. Okay. And there's a whole lot of drama that went on with my older son. But anyway, the younger one, since he had autism, I'm really getting into the blogging about that and watching his journey and his senior year was really tough because he was older, but he was still kind of juvenile because he has the autism and I just documented everything. And at some point I called my blog, I talked about how he was joyful all the time.

And I said, I wish I could have his joy, his joy that he needs to be bottled. He's so happy all the time. He's so innocent and he's got a world out there he's getting fixing to have to navigate and of course we're going to help him do that. I use the word joy and I realized I was around joy every day because of him and so I changed my blog name to Around Joy. It was all focused about my son, I think it was the summer after he graduated. He was a very gifted percussionist. And he's a musically and he was, we were in band and all that high school band and so we were those band parents. We loved doing the whole drum line thing cause he was not only in band but he was in drum line, which is another subsection. It just consumes your life.

Well we followed Drum Corps International and drum corner nationals. Just such a fun thing to follow all summer long as the cores go all over the country. But a lot of them are based out of California. And we got tickets for Christmas that summer before to go to Pasadena for the Drum Corps International finals. And it wasn't until like the summer following. And so we were all excited about that. And of course I was loving it because they, what did they do in the, in the bands they spin what flags and rifles. Right. I was all into that cause I used to be a baton twirler so I was really excited to go see these finals cause all the cores are so good.

And it was about a week before we were supposed to leave for California and I turned on "Good Morning America" and there was this lady in this hula hoop and she was hoping and she was spinning it on her hand above her head. And I was just like drawn in and I was like, Oh my gosh, that's the coolest thing I have ever seen. And I just wanted to do it. And this was before we had any kind of DVR, TiVo or anything. I just flipped it on. And that's the first thing that was on my television and I'm like watching it. And then it was like, well, okay, here's the commercial. And that was it. And I'm like, what the heck? What was that? What, what? What did they just put on my television? So I had to go to the computer and I looked it up and I found out that it was woman out of California and they had a company and they were doing this hoop stuff, this class or whatever, and they sold hoops online on their website. And found that out. So I just was like, okay, I want one of those.

I just ordered it. Like I didn't know what I was doing. But I ordered it and I said, where's it coming from? Oh no. Cause I didn't know where they were. I said, we're fixing to leave town in a week. And this was back before Amazon was real fast. You know what I mean? Like I was worried it was going to come and we weren't going to be there. And so I found out they're in California and I went, '"Oh no, they're not." And so I then I went further and sure enough, they weren't hike in Marina Del Ray, which is, I find out that's in California near where we were going to be in Newport Beach. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you don't even, Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. They even have classes. Oh, they don't have classes while we're there. Oh, I can book an appointment though for a private lesson.

I said, I'm going to do it. Do you know I sent her a contact. Within 30 minutes she's calling me and it was, this is the woman I just saw on the TV. She's calling me and I'm like, there is a God, you know, like Oh my God, he's listening to my prayer. And she goes, well sure, why don't you just call me when you get into town and we'll set up a time. And I said, okay, would Monday work? I was like, yeah, because I knew that we would be done by Monday cause the thing was on Saturday, we had a day to kind of look around and then I could have him drop me off. I'm not even thinking straight y'all like what's my husband going to say? I didn't care. I just knew I wanted to spend that hoop.

Sure enough, I didn't tell him. I didn't tell him. I knew all this time. I told my girlfriend, I said, I'm going to take this hula hoop lesson when we get to California. And she was like, you're going to what? I said, look at this girl. And I showed her the girl on the website, she's like, Jesus, Geri, she doesn't have any clothes on. I was like, but look, look at her arms. They are like rocking, you know, like look at those arms on that girl. So I said, I want to be like that. She goes, Geri, that girl's got to be 30 and I was like, I don't care. I said, look. So I mean I was just all the things, nobody, I wouldn't listen to anybody, all the excuses. I'm like, I'm going to do it. So we get there and had a great time and went to the Rose Bowl, saw the thing. And all this time I'm watching all the spinning going on.

And do you know even that time I hadn't even had a hoop yet. Even that day at the finals, I'm watching every single guard, every single rifle, what do they call it? Flag Corps, Color Guard, whatever you call him. I was watching going, I'd put a hoop right there. Like I would put a hoop in that segment. It would look so good. Everything is circular. And I guarantee after you get off the phone with me and you start watching performances of bands and you start watching performances of dancing and things, they show you the rocket. Everything's circular. You know, I'm like, I'll put a hoop in the middle of that, get that girl doing that hoop. I'm always thinking that way when I watch performances. So anyway, we're at the hotel and we're getting ready at our stuff and I said, Hey, tomorrow you and Kyle, cause we were just with Kyle. Cause Kevin, my other son lives in California at this point.

He lived in San Diego for years. He went off on his own skateboarder or the whole story. Anyway, he was out there. So we were visiting with Kevin a lot and California. So since we ever go in there for the band thing, we said we're going to drive down and pick you up and bring you back and take you with us to the thing. So we drove down to San Diego, got him for the weekend and so my son was there, my other son too, but I said, we're going to tight cKyleback to some San Diego. Come back up here then tomorrow I need y'all to drop me off for my souvenir. And he went, what? I broke the news while we're on the highway and he goes, what? And I said, it's a lesson, a dance lesson. I couldn't get the word out hula-hoop y'all. I just couldn't do it because what do you mean a dance lesson.

Like a, what kind of dance? I said, it's just a dance with like a prop, I guess a couple dance. What are you doing? And I was like, no, it's, it's, it's a big hula hoop. And my sons were in the back seat going, what? They were just laughing their butts off and I said, y'all don't give me a hard time. This is really something I really want to do. He goes, well, what are we going to do, Geri, for two hours or whatever, and I said, just go walk around Venice Beach. So I went, they dropped me off. I said, I'm not going to get another souvenir. I said, I wouldn't want anything. This private lesson is all I want. I was horrible, like I was terrible. The one thing I could do are the two moves that were in the hands. It just felt so natural to me to spin something in my fingers and my hands or whatever, and she says, you're really good at that.

She goes, you know, you have to work on the waist taping low. I said, Oh, well that, but you know what? I said, women back home, they don't know about this, and she goes, well then it's your job to tell him. And I was like, God damn sure will. I said, this just feels amazing. She goes, are you going to pick it back up if you drop it? I said, heck yeah. I said I was shy. I was the poster child for what I wish every client would be for me. But again, I am also the poster child for somebody that could not spin that hoop on her body to save her life. And I went home with the knowledge that I suck. But I was good at a couple of things. Okay. And I loved it, I really loved it, but I was embarrassed. I still have the pictures and every so often, like on the anniversary of my very first lesson, I'll pull out the pictures.

My hand, I'm in the car, we're driving up the coast. This is, we took this nice long draw of a PCH and I just like was sitting in the car thinking how much I loved it, texted my girlfriend, but I'm taking a picture and sending it to her of my hand was bruised because I'd let this hope spin on it. That's the only thing I can do. And I said, but that is a love kiss right there. And it didn't last very long. But I mean, I had all this jewelry on my bruises across the back of my hand. She's like, are you nuts? You love it and it, and it hurt your body. I said, it doesn't hurt girl. I said, it was amazing. So anyway, when I got back home, I was telling her all about it and my husband was just like rolling his eyes every time I use it. He just said, he goes, what is this hoop shit?

You know? He was just joking with me about it all the time. And anyway, I didn't have my hope for another few days. I had him hold it until I got back and then they sent it and I would never practice in front of my husband. I would go in my backyard. And I sucked. Like I couldn't do it. And I was, Oh, it made me so sad. But I did the two things that really made me sing, you know, that was good that I could do. And I kept trying to get my girlfriend to do it. I kept trying to get her to do it and she kept saying no and she thought I was nuts. And so I had a lonely hoop journey for several months. Like nobody would believe me. They just thought I was all crazy and for that very reason I was the girl that put the hoop in the hallway and it sat there and the one saving grace I always said was like, Oh well at least it's not a treadmill.

I can't drape my clothes on it. Towel will fall right off that sucker. But it propped in the, you know, in the hallway and he passed it in the hallway. He goes, do you ever do that? I said, uh huh. I do it when you're not home. He goes, why do you do it when I'm not home? Like he knew like I was gonna say, cause I suck and I don't want you to make fun of me. I said, because I'm creating something. When I'm ready for you to see me, I will let you know.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Geri McNiece. To learn more about her custom hoops and training sessions, visit aRoundJoy.com. Now here's more of our interview with Geri and what happened next on her journey to turn her passion for hula hooping into a business.

Geri: I let this lady in California think that I was so in love with it and I was going to really start teaching it at some point like I was going to do it. And she goes, well, when we're ready to start training teachers, you're going to be one of the first people I call. Cause you seem like you're really into it. And I'm like, Oh, I am. You know? Needless to say, I didn't hear from her for a while, so I wasn't practicing. Well when she was ready to come to town because she was coming to Texas, who's one of the first people she calls? Me. And I'm like, uh yeah, I'd love to come to your workshop and it's going to be next week and I'm going to be at this place. And I'm like, Holy crap, I only can do two things. Oh my God.

And so then I brushed up in a week, man. When you got fire under your butt, you will do that thing. When did I push the envelope, see that's what I need. I need people to push that envelope under my butt. Put that fire under me. I learned a couple more things cause she had DVDs in the box. Right. So I learned a couple more things and I got one girl I called, I even did a Facebook, I'll never forget it. I was new on Facebook. Did a Facebook invite. Couldn't get one person to go to this class with me. I didn't want to go by myself but I, and ultimately I took one girl and she had fun but I mean she wasn't into it like me. But after that was over, she told me the instructor, she's like, we have a home program he did to learn this, do it.

I'll give you a $50 coupon off for whatever. I forget what it was but sign me up man. That day I was like, okay, cause I saw what she did in class and I actually left that workshop class doing something more than I could do when I didn't have her in front of my eyeballs. And that is another thing that I learned. It helps to have instruction of somebody in front of you, like you can learn a lot online, but when you've got a person in your back pocket, that's your mentor one-on-one. That's what made the difference for me in the beginning. And that's why I do what I do today because it goes back to my roots. I didn't ever think that I would get to the level that I got at just by myself, like at home, because I'm not that person that has that discipline to just do, to do, at least I didn't think I was.

But I have somebody guiding me and they gave me the tools, just you know, the the information I needed. And then I just zoned in on that one thing that for the first time in my life I said, I'm going to do it. I did it. And look what I did. I mean, I even ended up starting a business. It was just like the first time I'd ever done that in my life. Other than raising my boys because getting through the whole, you know, life, raising an ADHD and an autistic son and having my sanity, that's my greatest accomplishment. For me personally, the growth that it took to start with being sucking. The level of suckage, I just can't even tell you how bad I was when I first picked up a hoop to look at me today. People think I've been doing it all my life.

No, it was such a personal journey and to do it with the intention that I'm going to teach it someday was the way that it made it palatable for me. And so just getting to that point, I'm like, okay, now I'm ready to teach. I took four months I think to learn it and I had one girlfriend who believed in me and she is the one that pushed the envelope for me here. Like she would say, did you make a video today? Okay, to learn to teach this. I had to make a video of myself teaching every single move, like 20, 30 I don't know. It was a lot of moves. Like I'm teaching to the camera, like you're my student, which you know, okay, my performance background fine. That that helped me because I wasn't shy in front of a camera. It didn't bother me.

But just to know that there were some moves, I couldn't do that well, but I had to say, if I am still working on this move, I have not mastered it yet. But here is some points to think about when you're learning this move. And so I would have to memorize, you know, like a script almost. It becomes your vernacular. So you take a bare bones of what the key points are of a, of a move and then you teach it, but you make it into your own speak. And that was the challenge too for me because I wanted it to feel, I didn't want to repeat something rote memory. It needed to be authentic to me and authentic. I'm from Texas, y'all, I'm not. You know what I mean? I'm going to talk and way I talk. But yeah, after getting to a point where I felt like solid, I ended up making the complete, and this is, you know, you're putting it on a VHS tape.

Okay. Like we're talking a long time ago and putting it all together and sending it off to be critically judged and do you pass or not? And I passed with flying colors and they wanted me to become a master trainer and I'm like, Holy crap. And so then I worked for them for a while and it didn't really have my own business, but I have my own name, which guess what? That was aRoundJoy. Now let me preface, I did not start this with a hoop in my hand around joy, but yet I had that night. Is that not a God wink? Come on now and the beautiful name and it has to do with a lot more than hooping. So for me it's personal and the hoop brings me joy. But a lot of other things do, too. It's a beautiful journey. I've been on with this hoop.

Every single job I've ever had in my life, which I've been a waitress a lot. I worked in banking, worked in sales and a clothing stores, good lord, several retail jobs, but all the customer service training. I've had really set me up to be a business person, which I had no clue. And I opened business accounts for other people all those years in banking. So I knew a little bit about the legal part of documents, things that you needed for business. But yeah, I realized every person I'd ever met on my journey was important to my business because I had to start networking to publicize what I was doing. And you don't know who you're going to meet every day in life or why you meet them and then later on you look back and go, Oh, that person. It's good to know. You know? It's been really, really interesting.

Passionistas: So talk about that part of the journey. You decided you liked it. You decided you wanted to be an instructor. You had so many people pushing back against you when you wanted to do it personally. How did you convince strangers to jump in and start hooping?

Geri: Okay. My one girlfriend who believed in me. If it wasn't for her, I just don't know if I ever would've gotten this thing off the ground because she had such confidence in me. She's the one that came up with the idea of let me talk to my dad. He's got some warehouse space and I was like, he does. I didn't even know that. And she said, this is where you need to teach it Geri, cause you can't walk into anywhere and get anybody to believe you. You got to look legit. You know? And he was a business owner and she worked for him. You know what I mean? Small businessman.

If you can convince my father that you could get some people, you know, you got to have some classes to get people, give them free, give them away free. You know what I mean? But I have to have place to do it. I thought I did and I'm glad I did it that way. But yeah, I ended up getting a warehouse and then go into every dang festival. Like go get a booth at some place and you pay for a little tent and you sit under it and you give people your business card or you, you say, come on and you just stand up there, here, put this hoop on. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, Oh no, no, you've never worked with me. Come on now let's do this. And I had to go out and do that.

Oh lord have mercy. The first three years is just like, come on and take a class here. It's a $5 class. I gave it away. Like you don't even pay it. Just come take it. So it wasn't like this was a huge moneymaker, but I had really cheap rent because I got the daughter discount over there with dad. That's how this whole thing started was on. This is like on shoestring budget. But yet my husband, who he knows I could sell ice to an Eskimo. He's always believed in me as far as when I was working and he saw what kind of awards I got in sales and he goes, and this is even better Geri, cause I know you really believe in it and I've seen what it does to your body. You have a new spring in your step. He just saw how it changed me and he knew I was passionate about this.

We've been together 35 years. He knows if mama ain't happy, nobody's happy. He's a giver. He treats me like a queen. I wouldn't be anywhere without him either. He invested in this. In time and money and he's very handy and built out everything. And the warehouse was adorable. We built it out, didn't spend a lot of money but more than I'd really ever planned on. But you know, having the legitimacy of I'm doing this, like there's this crazy woman who's 40 something years old. If she says I can do it, well I think I'll go to her class, not going to cost me anything. Or I met her on the street, or I'd go to all the music festivals here in town.

Best thing ever that happened while I was just getting this off the ground as there's a wonderful Levitt foundation. We got Levitt pavilion here in Arlington and then another out in California. There's like four or five of them in the country, but it's a wonderful nonprofit that brings music to the community. So we got a Levitt Pavilion where they bring music, concerts, free concerts to the community, and there you go. Uh, what am I going to do? I'm bringing my hoop. Brought my hoop, and would dance to the music and get women to come try it and then hand them my business card and they would come and I would teach classes. That's how I ended up getting people, was really going out in the community. Very grassroots, very grassroots.

Passionistas: So how has hooping changed your life — physically and beyond? Physically?

Geri: It's definitely kept me feeling younger. It centers me, it calms me. It's the one thing that I can do. I never say no. You know how if you go to exercise you're like, I really don't feel like going to exercise. I really just don't feel like it, but I know I need to. I never say that with a hoop. It's like I just, I want to go feel better, give me that thing. I've got to go. It just loosens me up. I don't know about you guys, but when I wake up I have a hitch in my get along or when I get up out of a chair. Do you ever go, I got a hitch in my get along. It's like my hip kind of. Oh goodness. That does not go away, ladies. Okay. Like just cause I hope it's not a magic pill where I don't ache anymore, but if I start moving with my hoop, I don't ache anymore. It's just like taking medicine to me, but it's also allowed me to meet wonderful women all these years. It's 10 years this year. This November was 10 years that I started my business, so for 10 years I've gotten to meet amazing women and done some amazing, crazy things.

I've been in parades. And it's really brought me just a lot of happiness and I think that's the key, right? To just make it every day worth getting up. I'm just happier doing it.

Passionistas: What advice would you give to a woman who wants to start hooping but might be a little apprehensive about it?

Geri: Just give it a try. You don't know because you probably not tried with the right size hoop and you've certainly not tried with, I bet with any instruction because that's just it. You have to know what you're doing. You have to have somebody talk you through it because just watching videos on the YouTube, that's not enough because that's not your body on that screen. That's that person. You've got somebody to go well with your size. Okay. I'm going to give you a couple of things to think about. All right.

It's a lot of visualization in your head and if you don't have somebody talking to you through that, you're not going to get in that right place. Now, if you've had experience. As a child, hooping as a young girl, it comes back relatively quick, but your body is not the same size as when you were that little girl is it? So you may have to move your body a little bit differently now. And that's where I come into because I can go get girl, sister, you got it, look, Oh, I can see it. But here's what I want you to try now because you're going to hurt yourself doing what you're doing right now. So stop, because that is the thing too, is like women of a certain age, let's just say that this hooping looks fun and it is, and it's all the, all the things that you think it is.

As far as the, the lightness of it, you know, it's like, Oh, it makes you feel like a kid again. But our bodies, we have to respect the fact that they're, you know, 40 and 50 and 60 years old. We've got to do things smart with a hoop or you could hurt yourself. That's where you get the bad. Like, Oh, that hurt my back, that hurt my shoulder, or whatever you were doing. You know, you've got to know your limitations and if you have limitations, there's still something you can do with the hoop. It's the best thing ever for therapeutic movement, dynamic stretching like no other. You just go, but you got to let yourself go and go out there and play with it and so get out of your own head. Stop your inner dialogue. Think about it. You didn't have that when you were a little kid. You just did it.

Life has a way of beaten us down and life experience teaches us sometimes we're less than and we don't deserve that. This is what the hoop should remind you of. That's a toy. It's much more than that, but you know it's a toy. It's fun. Let yourself go there. That's where your joy is.

Passionistas: When you, as you say, get a hitch in your get along and you're not feeling motivated, how do you get out of that funk?

Geri: I let myself have a day just be that blivet, you know, just be that. I love that word. Blivet. That's a family word, by the way. We say that a lot when we're having a day like that. I'm just going to believe it today. Okay. And then I get up and I get in my hope. I know it sounds trite and silly, but it's just, it's a physical reminder of good, this is good. There's not one damn bad thing about that hoop and it has a way of just working its magic on you, making you feel a little bit better. Just, I mean, I'm just holding it in my hand. I'm not even spinning it on my body. I'm just kinda like, you know, just like moving my shoulders a little bit, holding my hoop above head, starting to gently move my body because in movement there is healing. It really is just gotta move and no big ostentatious movement. I'm not having to get up myself up and put a bunch of clothes on and go to the gym or go make some massive amount of change to get myself out of the funk. I just got to pick up my hoop, make a little bit of gentle movement, and if that's all I do that day, that's okay. But I know the movement helps me get out of my head. Okay? So it's just a little bit of extra movement and some days I don't feel like doing a lot, but I make myself do a little bit and then I lay back down.

Passionistas: What advice would you give to a young woman who wants to follow a unique passion like you have?

Geri: Do it. God puts that idea in you for a reason. I truly believe you're not going to think of something randomly for no reason at all. You're just not. You're not going to have a passion for something without a reason. It may be something that you do on the side, which is how this started for me. I said, you know, this could help me get in shape because Lord knows I have all these years. I wish I would have found the hoop when I had my boys, Jesus. Oh, but I didn't. But it fulfilled a passions in me. Right? I love to dance and sing, but of course the singing is out there. But I mean I love to perform to music, love to dance to music. But I also, you know, had a passion for keeping myself healthier cause I lost both of my parents so early.

Right? So I want to keep myself active and I just couldn't get into anything and I had a passion for this. It's so different than a traditional gym exercise, but it blended my passions and I had to, I had to to visit it. So at least visit it. Dip your toe in that passion, pursue it. I'll tell you what, if it's meant to be, doors are gonna open that you don't even, you didn't even try to get them to open. The things are just going to, it just happens. It happens. That's when you know you're on your path when you're just doing the thing and things just happen. Like you didn't even seek it out. It'll happen if it's supposed to.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Geri McNiece. To learn more about her custom hoops and training sessions, visit aRoundJoy.com.

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