The idea that the government should be run more like a business isn’t new. But with two businessmen, Donald Trump and Elon Musk, now taking a proverbial chainsaw to the federal bureaucracy all in the name “efficiency,” this theory is being put to the test. While it’s an appealing idea, Philip Joyce, professor of public policy at the University of Maryland School of Public Policy, said governments can’t afford to take risks the way businesses can. On the show today, Joyce explains the origins of the idea that the government should be run like a business, how we define “success” differently for the two entities, and how the way Trump and Musk do business is showing up in the White House.

Then, we’ll break down the high stakes of today’s special elections in Wisconsin and Florida. Plus, reflections on serendipitous moments in walkable communities and what we gain by admitting we were wrong.

Here’s everything we talked about today:

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