An encouraging word to those who have lost loved ones or are alone during the holidays. The Best is Yet to Come.

Bios:  

Ken Crabb– Ken Crabb is the youngest of Dr. Larry Crabb’s two sons. He has been married for 21 years and has three daughters. Ken and his family live in North Carolina.

Rachael Crabb – Author Rachael Crabb is a former teacher and ministry consultant who has spoken for conferences and ministry retreats worldwide. Married to Dr. Larry Crabb for over 54 yrs, she is the mother of 2, grandmother of 5, and soon-to-be a great-grandmother. She writes and co-edits for Larger Story’s blog column, “Becoming Me, Without You.”

What happens when a family decides to shift the focus of their holiday celebration from gift giving and receiving to creating memorable experiences together and sharing them with others. Join Karlene, her son Nick Cannon, and her daughter, Ivy Hill, as they talk about their journey as a family into
Christmas Different.

Bios:

Ivy Hill – In fifth grade, Ivy wrote one thing in her journal: “My goal- Get into Duke.” Seven years later, she met that goal, which tells you a lot about her enormous capacity and remarkable work ethic. But as a junior in high school, she confessed to her parents, “I have learned if I make my goal anything but loving other people, I will run right over them and do a lot of damage in the process.” And now you see a glimpse into her unusually self-aware and wisely beautiful heart.

While in high school, Ivy fell in love with two young kindergarten students who had just come to the country and spoke no English. She tutored them for 4 years and watched as the language barrier caused them to fall further behind their peers with each passing year. The pain of watching their love and excitement for learning erode as they faced overwhelming obstacles kindled a passion in Ivy to teach and help newcomers overcome the challenges of school while learning a new language.

Ivy is the oldest child of Karlene Cannon, Director of Content and Product Development for Larger Story. She graduated magna cum laude from Duke University in 2020 with a degree in Linguistics and Neuroscience, and received her Master’s in Teaching from Union University in 2022. She married fellow Duke alumnus, Jimmy Hill, in 2020, and today they both teach high school students in Memphis Tennessee.

Nick Cannon – Growing up obliged to have conversations that matter around the dinner table, after arguments with siblings, and every Sunday with a larger community of families, Nick Cannon has reluctantly come to appreciate knowing how to deeply engage with others in any circumstance or condition of soul. Nick is the son of Karlene Cannon, Director of Content and Product Development for Larger Story. He is a senior business major at Furman University and plays football there. He is also a photographer and filmmaker and released his first documentary film in March. You can find his portfolio on Instagram @nickcann0n.

Larger Story will be going to be in Jackson Tenn., just outside the Memphis area and holding a conference called “Not Myself, By Myself” an introduction and invitation to relational discipleship on January 26 and 27, 2024.

Bio:  

Duncan Sprague – Since 2007, Duncan has served as a bi-vocational minister with International Christian Ministries (ICM), Compassion International, Cadence International, and Larger Story (LS), where he regularly contributes to LS vlogs, webinars, and podcasts. Duncan brings his passion for trinitarian-relating and relational development, along with years of rich cross-cultural experience to every person and place he serves. Since 1994, Colorado has been home to Duncan and Angie and is the birthplace of their four adult children.  

Kent Denlinger – Kent Denlinger served as a lead pastor of Valley Springs Fellowship in Warsaw, Indiana for 32 years. For 15 years, he also worked for NewWay Ministries as a spiritual director at the Schools of Spiritual Direction and NextStep. After retiring from the pastorate in 2018, Kent spent 5 years as a corporate chaplain in Cincinnati, Ohio where he and his wife currently reside. Kent has a Masters in Counseling degree as well as a Master of Divinity degree, both from Grace Theological Seminary. In 2010, he completed a Doctorate of Ministry in Spiritual Direction from Gordon-Conwell. Presently, Kent, along with his wife, Karla, are the co-founders of a nonprofit ministries called Soul Signature Ministries, which offers various kinds of spiritual direction to individuals and groups. They have two adult children and five grandchildren.
 

Transcript

Kep Crabb: Welcome everyone to the Relational Spirituality podcast of Larger Story. I’m your host, Kep Crabb. 

This upcoming January of 2024, on January 26th and 27th, Larger Story is going to be at Fellowship Bible Church in Jackson, Tennessee. We’ll be doing our first conference event since Dad passed away and we honored him with the Larger Story Summit in 2022, last year. We’re calling this conference, “Not Myself, By Myself: An introduction and invitation to relational discipleship.” It’s designed to encourage and invite cross generational relationships and discipleships. What does it look like? How do we pour into others in the same way that we have been poured into and continue to be poured into?

I’m joined today by two good friends and colleagues who are going to be speaking at this conference in January. Kent Denlinger and Duncan Sprague. Good to see you guys and thanks for joining me today guys.

Duncan Sprague: Thank you much. 

Kent Denlinger: Glad to be here.

Kep Crabb: So I guess it’s not too it’s not too late now to say Merry Christmas. I’m allowed to say that at this point here, because we’re after Thanksgiving, actually December 1st. So Merry Christmas, you guys.

Duncan Sprague: Thank you. And to you as well.

Kep Crabb: Thank you. Let’s talk a little bit about this weekend that we’re going to be doing in January. It’s been in the works for a little bit and we’re getting excited about this. I hope that some of you people watching our podcast today can even come there in person. We’d love to see you in the Jackson, Tennessee area. It’s outside of Memphis. But let’s talk a little bit about what this weekend’s going to look like.

Both of you guys are going to be doing the majority of the talking. Kent, talk a little bit about what you’re going to be talking about this weekend and why you think it’s important.

Kent Denlinger: Let’s start with the title. Eugene Peterson said in a book talking about community, he said, “I am not myself by myself.” And that’s really true. I think most of us probably could look back across our life, whether we’ve recognized it or not, and realize how we’ve been impacted by others, maybe from a distance at times. But in my life, at least in the reason I got excited about this is because when I look back over my life, I realized that God used specifically really three, four, five individuals, probably two or three really deeply, to impact me. I wouldn’t be who I am apart from that. That’s also true with a group of friends. I realized that’s then what I do. That’s what I love to do: pour myself into younger guys. When I think about this I’ve wondered if this is part of a missing joy in the church. I wonder if older people are scared of the younger people and the new generation and younger people don’t know how to ask for help. Maybe they’re scared of the older people. And because of that, there’s a gap between the two and we’re missing something. It seems to me like what we’re missing is the opportunity to relate to people, older, younger and the same age, in ways that could be really meaningful and shape who we are and our culture just really elevates individualism in a way that I think is incredibly detrimental.

Kep Crabb: Yeah. One of the things that brings the three of us certainly in common is the fact that – I think I can speak for both of you guys and certainly myself – One of the people who has had the most impact on me has been my father. I know that’s probably true of both you guys as well. I can name a handful of other people too. There’s not many people that Dad considered his kids outside of his kids, but I think you guys were two of those. And Dunc, you spent a lot of time with Dad over the years. Talk about what you’re thinking about for this weekend in January.

Duncan Sprague: I just came across a verse in first Corinthians that really highlighted some of what I think we’ll be sharing about. It’s right in the context of Paul is writing to the Corinthian church and they’re fighting over their allegiance to Apollos or Cephas or himself. And one of the things he says in there, and this is in chapter four, the very end of it, he just says, “for though you have countless guides in Christ.” I think about that. All the countless guides I’ve had, the teachers, the lecturers, the people who I’ve come across. He says, “so you’ve had countless ones.” And I go, yeah, that’s me too. Literally over the years, the number of classes, the number of books I’ve read, I’ve had lots of guides, but then he goes on and he says, “you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you then, be imitators of me.” I love that because Paul had a certain confidence as he’s writing to these folks that he helped plant a church with. I think in terms of the different ministries Larry’s done over the last number of years, especially SSDs. Kent was significantly involved in those. We went to a handful of them. I often take credit for SSD zero because all the SSDs got numbered. But this was the one that he did on a weekly basis in a church with just a handful of us. All it did was it taught him what not to do in the end. What I love about it is that he fathered me, in not just his great successes, but also when he saw something didn’t work, he abandoned it quickly. He didn’t stick with it. There were ways that he fathered me, just like this text talks about, that only happened by spending time with him.

Kep Crabb: That’s so big. Just to clarify, the SSD stands for the School of Spiritual Direction. Dunc, if you went to school zero and Kent, you were involved in a number of schools as you and Karla were spiritual directors.

I think 78 schools is what we ended up finally doing over that 20 year period of time or so, whatever it was, something in that range. I know that dad felt just very privileged to be a part of that and to see what was happening. I was actually chatting with someone today about the SSD and how, 15 years later, they still are in touch with their triads and keep connection with that relationship, which is really cool. So Kent, talk about a little bit about that time in the SSD. We’ve talked about this a little bit before, but I actually talked about this a little bit with Trip more and having been through so many of those things. What was it like sitting in on all those SSDs in the day?

Kent Denlinger: It was a privilege. There’s nothing like repetition. The more you hear something, I don’t think there was a school that I went to that I wasn’t provoked. I don’t care how many you went to, it was a sacred space, like nothing else I’ve ever really been to. It feels like God was always doing something, meeting people. 

I know a personal friend of mine went to it. He’d be an engineer type and not the type that you would think would talk about dreams. Yet it was at the school that he encountered God in a dream. I think he’d probably say, I’m not sure I’ve ever had another dream that I’ve encountered God in. So I think it was just always shaping. Larry was always rethinking. No matter how many times you hear it, the Spirit of God has new eyes for you to see something about yourself, which is one of the beauties of what God does.

You know how it is. You can read a text for 20 years and then suddenly you read it and you see something or you see it in a way you’ve never seen it before. That’s what the school did. It created such categories, such ways of thinking about the story that God is telling. 

I used to get on your dad because he’d say, I’m not a theologian. And I’d say, yes, you are. You know the scriptures like nobody I’ve ever known and you bring your life to it. And because of that, you’re truly a theologian. I know what he was trying to say, but it was such a grounded model in theory and was so grounded in the scriptures. I think that’s part of what created space for the Spirit of God.

Kep Crabb: I’ve had several conversations in the last several days about what that has meant to people. It just makes me miss him all the more. I don’t want to start crying now in the middle of this podcast. I just miss that guy every day and just what he really was about.

I remember talking with Trip about this time at the SSD and he said the first time he heard the seven questions, he thought, Oh, that’s neat. And by about the 200 or whatever it was in him. It was part of him. It became who he was. One of the things that we’ve had a chat about and I’ve talked with both you guys about is how we can offer what dad was really trying to do with the SSDs to different organizations and churches today.

One of the dreams of mine, and I know of Kent’s as well, and Dunc, I think you too, is, how can we take what we have learned from the SSDs, the schools of spiritual direction and offer those back to the communities of people where they’re doing life together? That’s one of the intents of this first conference. It’s not gonna be an SSD, it’s just gonna be a two day conference on the 26th and 27th. Friday evening, the 26th, and then the morning through lunch on the 27th. So it’s not going to be like an SSD, but I think it’s going to set the groundwork for some of those kinds of relational connections and opportunities. I’m really hoping that’s what happens out of this weekend that we get a chance to go to.

What are some of the things you guys hope happens this weekend, when we go to Jackson, Tennessee to talk about relationships and discipleship?

Kent Denlinger: Let me just back up just for a minute, because I want to come back to the SSD school of spiritual directions. I would just say part because it fits what we want to be about here in Jackson, and that’s that part of the beauty of the schools for Karla and I. It was a time that we would interact with Larry outside of the classroom, outside of the structure. We’re meeting with people and we’re talking through that. 

One very specific example, one time Larry and I were just chatting. It seemed like a normal conversation about the day. I was talking through a struggle of meeting with people. Larry looked at me and he said a sentence I’ve never forgotten. He said, “Kent, the difference between you and me is not giftedness. It’s not knowledge.” –  Which, I would argue both of those. – But he said, “the real difference is I’m more comfortable in the mess than you are.” And that sentence just pierced me. I thought, that’s really true. An example of what we want this conference to be about is to help us realize that those kinds of conversations and those kinds of interactions come out of normal events, normal stuff going on. But then God gives me or you a moment of wisdom and we say something that the Spirit embeds in the heart of another person.

I really want that weekend to create a vision of your life. You might feel like you’re at the end of your life, but you could listen to another young person or middle aged person. You could interact with them in a way in which God could use just a sentence. There’s so much joy in that. I want to incite people’s hunger for a joy that I think we’re meant to experience in community as we connect our lives to other people and share our stories and talk about what God’s doing in our hearts and listen hard for what God’s doing to another person.

Kep Crabb: I love what you say about the mess and Dad’s whole attitude of the mess. We’ve been chatting with some people and I ran across a quote of Dad’s, you guys may remember this. The quote was, “Propositional truth unbloodied by relationship leaves you arrogant and puffed up.”

How do you dive into that mess with the attitude of, I’m in it with you? That’s just the way that dad really made me feel, I think made us feel. He was so for us, had such a vision for us. Dunc, what are some of the things you hope to see happen?

Duncan Sprague: I have a couple of thoughts to just jump out from what Kent just said.

One comes out of 1 Thessalonians 2:8, where Paul says, “I love you so much that I gave you not only the gospel, but my very life.” I’ve often wanted to say, probably in the original Greek, it said my very messy life. I wanted to give you the gospel that is only lived out in a messy life. I don’t know a Bible that is unmessy. I’ve often held my Bible up and I’ve gone, here’s where it works. Right here at the beginning and right here at the last couple chapters, everything else in the middle is just a bloody mess. It’s one where we get to live in the middle.

Your dad stole the line from your grandfather. The Bible or the gospel is a love story that begins with a divorce and it’s that middle of the animosity, the enmity that’s built between man and woman, man and himself, man and nature. That’s the real challenge of being a disciple. Oftentimes we can have good theology. This is where I think I love what Kent just said. Larry was a theologian, he was always thinking theologos, God thoughts, God thinking. He was always thinking about God. 

Even the seven questions are theological questions, but rather than throwing them in the theological categories. One of those questions is, what went wrong? And we have a whole theological category of hamartiology. So we make it sound scholastic and important to confuse people, but he would just say, no, it’s relational sin. It’s the fact that I got so self absorbed with the fall that there’s been a real problem that’s been created.

That’s some of what we’re going to be moving into this weekend . We’re in a sense, we’re always asking those seven questions. Larry would often preface them with, there are a lot of questions that God didn’t answer but there are a few that He did. When He answers those, those should be the ones that we lean forward in our chair going, if God answered this, it seems like it is really important.

One of those is, What went wrong? But also, what is God doing about it right now? He’s provided His Spirit who dwells in us for the sake of others. That was some of Larry’s core thinking, that God lives in me to get into you. That what you need most, God has already put in me as part of this movement of God but I can get in the way of that. Your sin can get in the way of that, your relational sin. So part of it is taking a deeper dive to say, what’s gone wrong, but what has God done? What are the provisions that He’s made available? 

This is what I loved about Larry, he would drop some of the theological terms. So rather than a systematic theology or a covenant theology or whatever, he would say, no, it’s a relational theology. He would tag the word relational in front of it. We are in good form and have done the same. We’ve called this an introduction and an invitation to relational discipleship, because so many times we get lost in discipleship as a course, as a number of disciplines and strategies that we implement, and we lose the fact that discipleship, when Jesus did it, He came to put His Father on display. The very nature of His own discipleship from the father may seem strange to say it that way, but it was to put God on display by coming and living incarnate in this world in relationship with us.

That’s really what we want to capitalize on while we’re there is talking in the ways that discipleship has gotten shut down in our own culture because we tend to move the generations away from one another. We split off the youth, we split off the adults, we split off the elderly, and we say that they have their own needs. Jesus oftentimes said, no, this is where your life on life happens. Where you share the gospel and your messy lives is when someone like Larry, a number of steps down the road from us would come and launch us as young men. And now we, as older men now, are doing the same.

Kent Denlinger: I want to piggyback on what Duncan said, which you just said so well, Duncan, you’ve just got a great gift with words.

We’re trying to enliven or re-energize the whole idea of the priesthood of believers here. Larry said this often, there are no experts in matters of the soul. I don’t care how many degrees you have, how much training you have. I used to stand up front in church year after year and tell people, you know what I feel when people come into my office, the same thing you feel, I don’t have a clue what to do. I don’t know what’s going to happen here. I don’t know where this needs to go. But the Spirit of God does, and the Spirit of God is in us. He’s in me, and He’s in you, and He’s in the person, hopefully, that I’m having breakfast with. What does it mean to really believe that the Spirit can give us moments of wisdom, can give us the right question to ask? That emphasis on questions feels so important.

We want to, at this conference, remind us that part of this relational Discipleship thing is being a genuinely curious person about another person’s soul. I want to be a friend to another person’s soul. I don’t know what’s going on, but I sure can care. I can ask questions that are coming out of whatever the person’s talking about and hope that somehow the Spirit of God is here. He’s doing something that I may not be able to see, but I believe that this time really matters, spending time with another person with some intentionality really matters. 

I can tell you a story from years ago when I first started counseling. I was 25 or 26 years old and I sat with a woman for a year. She came in one day and said she had to leave. I said let’s have one more meeting. She came back and I said, what’s been helpful to you about this time? I was looking for a pat on the back. I wanted her to say, Hey man, you gave me this thought and this wisdom. I’ll never forget that she sat forward in her chair and she looked at me and she said, you’re the first man who’s ever sat across from me. looked me in the eyes and listened. I was disappointed, and then it dawned on me. That’s what we can do for each other. Presence matters. God with us, Emmanuel, God always promised His presence and I can be present with another person. That requires some death to myself, but I can be present. And so can you, and the ordinary person, which we all are, can be present to another person in a way that the Spirit of God can empower, and that’s what we really want to recapture.

Kep Crabb: I love the thought of the ordinary man, because that’s just how I feel. I’ve always loved to think, and I’ve talked with both you guys about this a bit, the same Holy Spirit that dwelt in my father dwells in us. We have the same opportunity for that kind of impact because Dad would be the first to tell you. it wasn’t him. He can’t do anything. He’s just a vessel. He’s a tool, but hearing you talk, it’s getting me so excited about this weekend.

Some people are probably asking, what are these 7 questions that they keep talking about? We’re going to be diving into that in 2024 as well. I’m talking about the 7 questions of spiritual theology. We’re going through some of that in the next podcast session. So we hope that you continue to join in with us.

Before we wrap up guys, is there anything that you want to say to the people who are listening today?

Duncan Sprague: I’d just say, I’m so excited to have this opportunity. I remember the last number of Larry’s years. There was lots of talk about his legacy. He had this recurring dream that he would talk about this nightmare. Actually, he would dream about putting his hand in the water and he would see a displacement while his hand was in the water and he could see ripples going out, but there was always this fear when he pulled it out, the ripple stopped.

And it was like, as long as I’m present, there’s a, there’s an effect going on, but when I pull out, when I pull my hand out of the water, I no longer have an influence. What I love right now is that as we sit here, we’re free ripples of a man’s influence on us. And he, in like mind, goes back to other men, fathers of his own soul.

The piece that I am so excited about is people catching a vision for a relational revolution, that God really wants to transform His body. Not by more slick services. I’m all for a great service where worship is going on, but I remember just this last weekend, I spent time with a 95 year old mentor of mine who is still sharp as a tack, and one of the things that grieved him, he says, we now have a church that loves to worship, but doesn’t know much about reverence. We don’t tremble much. He was the one who years ago taught me the very beginning of Isaiah 66, where God is rebuking Israel saying, where’s the house that you can build for me? Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. I don’t esteem the one that is going to do all these great things for me, but then He gives us a hint. But the one that I esteem is the one who is humble, who is contrite, which is another word for sorrows, and who trembles at my word. I hope that this is an opportunity for us to learn what it means to tremble and trust a God in a world where the world we live in right now is more messed up than I’ve ever been aware of.

Yet in the middle of that, God has made it possible for us to trust Him, not without the absence of fear, but movement in the presence of fear. What I’m most excited about is actually being able to look at God’s provision, not just being overwhelmed by the world’s mess, but even more so being overwhelmed by a God who is incomprehensible in His goodness, in His kindness. I’m thrilled for an opportunity to see a new way of living and relating that we were actually discipled in.

Kent Denlinger: My mind goes to a phrase in Jeremiah 2 where it’s profoundly sad to me where the Lord basically says that those who pursued worthless things or worthlessness became worthless. I’m afraid that a lot of what we’re pursuing in our lives, even as Christians, is leaving us as shallow people. I think we long for more purpose. It’s the difference that your dad would say between living between our birth and our death and living between the cross and His coming with purpose.

I think this idea that we’re trying to espouse, I don’t know how well we’ll do it, but at least you’ll get a feel and a passion for what we long to see. Could we recapture a purpose to our lives that really matters? When I look back over what I experienced from people like your dad and a couple of others two words come to mind, I felt enjoyed. I felt believed in, at least as a young man. It was the first time I felt believed in by anybody. I think we can offer that to younger people who feel the same void in their lives, who feel, does anybody really like me, enjoy me, do I have anything, and is it possible that I could be part of something bigger than myself and what I’m chasing, because I don’t want to be worthless. I don’t want to have a worthless life and I want to invite people to capture a vision where they could join the purposes of the kingdom in pouring their life into another. 

Dunc already said this, but man, I’ve been reading through first Thessalonians as well. As soon as you pointed out those verses, I thought that that was Paul’s joy. What’s my joy? What’s my crown? It’s you, it’s people. What will we have to show for an eternity? I think number one, it’s going to be the people that we pour our lives into. We’re taking this time to try and call all of us to say, Hey, let’s get our priorities going in the right direction. It’s about people and that whole relational thing that’s not just a word to us. It’s a way of life.

Kep Crabb: You guys have gotten me excited for this weekend in January and I just really appreciate both of you and your willingness to continue to move in the direction that Dad has taught all of us to move in. Let’s just continue to put Jesus on display. How do we relate and how are we presenting Jesus to others by who we are today? I love what you just said, what do you take when you’re gone and what do you leave are some of the things I thought about as well. I’m really excited for this weekend, guys. 

I just want to thank you for joining us again, folks. It’s gonna be in Jackson, Tennessee at Fellowship Bible Church on January 26th and 27th. Be looking for promotional emails from Larger Story for that. If you like what you heard today, please click the like button, tell your friends about it. Maybe they can come join and get a chance to participate in relational spirituality. Have a great day.

Kent Denlinger: I’d add one more thing if it’s still recording. If you’re an SSD alumnus, let’s have a reunion in a two hour to eight hour driving range. Come on down and join us.

Kep Crabb: We can do something virtually too. We can plug in 20 or 30 people on a webinar. If we want to have some conversation too, that’d be fun. You guys have made me excited about the SSD again and thinking through that. 

A lot of things are happening here at Larger Story and we’re super excited about this first event that we’re doing in January. We hope you can join us for that. Thanks for joining me. Have a great weekend and we’ll see you all next Tuesday.

What happens when 4 members of one family process the ups and downs of their story together?  Spiritual formation occurs, and an  amazing book is published!  Join Rosanne Moore as she talks today with Dr. Stephanie Holmes about how learning to embrace neurodiversity within her family has drawn all of them together to become more like Jesus. 

Bio:   Stephanie C. Holmes is formerly a licensed professional counselor (LPC) in the state of NC. She received her bachelor’s degree in psychology from Campbell University, her master’s in counseling from Liberty University and her doctorate in education from Abilene Christian University. She is an ordained minister, author, autism researcher, speaker, and certified autism specialist. When Sydney was diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome, her world and focus changed from a thriving marriage and family therapy practice to a world of Individualized Education Programs, 504 educational plans, and understanding how to help students and individuals with challenges and needs in the classroom and the church setting. Today, she pulls from personal as well as professional experience to focus on neurodiverse marriages and family systems. She is the owner and founder of Autism Spectrum Resources for Marriage & Family, LLC, and she and her husband Dan co-founded The International Association of NeuroDiverse Christian Marriage, LLC and the podcast NeuroDiverse Christian Couples.  
 

Show Note Links:   

To hear more of their family’s journey, look for their book Embracing the Autism Spectrum: Finding Hope & Joy Navigating a Neurodiverse Family Journey. 

Training and Tips are found on her YouTube: Dr. Stephanie C. Holmes by Dr. Holmes and her daughter, Sydney Holmes. 

 Emotionally Healthy Relationships by Peter Scazzero 

Called to Peace Ministries 

Chris Moles  

Transcript

Rosanne Moore: Hi, Larger Story audience. We’re so happy to have you with us again today. I’m Rosanne Moore, your host today for the Relational Spirituality podcast. I have a very special guest today. Dr. Stephanie Holmes was a schoolmate of mine in high school and we’ve touched base at various times over the years. She is Dr. Stephanie Holmes. She’s a board certified counselor, transitioning to a Christian life coach. You are an ordained minister. You are a certified autism specialist and autism researcher. Stephanie, I’m so happy that you’re here with me today. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: I’m so happy to reconnect. 

Rosanne Moore: Yeah, it’s great. Stephanie has actually been very helpful to me at various points over the years when I’ve had questions, because my oldest child is on the spectrum. I was wading through other things and she was looking into the neuroscience and from a counselor’s perspective and all of that. She offered some good, helpful points at various crossroads for me. 

Stephanie, you wrote a book in 2015 about your experience of having a child on the spectrum and what that was like, not just between the two of you, but in the context of church and school and society in general. The challenge of how the response was to the fact that Sidney walked through the world differently. But you’ve come back and you’ve written a new book as a family embracing the autism spectrum, finding hope and joy, navigating the neuro diverse family journey. And you did it together as a family. Would you tell me some more about what brought that on? Why the family book? 

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: So back in 2015 I waited to even put that one out because I wanted my oldest daughter to be out of high school, out of respect for her. She didn’t want some stuff about her childhood being written when she was still in a vulnerable space around bullies and not nice people. Really, the focus of that book was: I grew up in circles that were based on the prosperity doctrine. Back then, and it still is alive and well now, it’s not only that, if you name it and claim it. The darker side of prosperity gospel is if something is wrong, or if you are not financially blessed, or if you have a diagnosis, then you are then cursed or not in God’s favor or not under His protection. That being a foundation when my daughter was diagnosed and I had done all the good Christian things and got all my gold stars in church and school and Christian college. I did the Christian girl thing. This was not supposed to be happening. So from the infertility journey to then having a child diagnosed and not knowing what to do and just how the church received that and not having support, I was in a faith crisis for a while.

That book originally is me and that and going through infertility and going through this diagnosis and rediscovering God, not based on church or people who don’t represent Him well, but understanding who God is and really seeing that I wouldn’t have gotten through those times without His help.

I was just thinking this year, it’s time for a revamp of that book. At the same time, I was having those thoughts. My oldest daughter said, “Mom, I turned 25 this year and there’s a whole lot more of that story. You left me in middle school, high school. It’s really your version in your eyes of the story. I’d really like to talk about personal impact.” So she and I were going to make it mother-daughter. Then my husband said, “I’ve been diagnosed in the process too. And we didn’t know we were in a neurodiverse marriage. I really like to talk to dads and husbands and talk about my journey.” Then my youngest said, “What about a sibling’s perspective and my own ADHD? Because sometimes ADHD doesn’t get as much attention as autism.” So that set us on the path of writing this book together. 

An unintended, but positive consequence was it really helped us see everyone’s journey from another person’s perspective and bridge some relationship. There’s been some healing there. My husband said, “Steph, I wouldn’t have thought to say these things and process things out loud unless we had a reason to write them down.” But no. One of my daughters said, “Some of the things Dad said, I really needed to hear, and now it’s there in this book.”

It was a long process when you’re taking four authors and integrating a story. We also wanted to take it beyond a story to invite the reader to have spiritual formation. So there’s devotionals and questions like: stop and pause. Is your view of God skewed? Is there someone in your life causing you pain? Where do you need support? What’s the next action step? 

The girls, I love their transformational stuff, because Erica had to deal with having anger in her heart for her sister, and Sydney struggled with the verse about being fearfully and wonderfully made. Everyone’s perspective and spiritual formation from the book I think is something that’s unique. I think it would help a lot of marriages and families and people serving them to integrate faith in their neurodiverse journey.

Rosanne Moore: I was looking at some of these chapter titles and I just thought, this is so rich. “Unrealistic Life Maps: Trusting God’s Guidance on an Unforeseen Journey.” “When Hope Fades: Embracing God’s Presence in Moments of Despair and Hopelessness.” I thought, everybody who’s been a believer for very long, the terrain of their journey may be slightly different, but everybody’s been at these places.

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Different trials, different seasons. 

Rosanne Moore: Yeah. In this book the backdrop is autism. Those were the shaping events for you guys. But the spiritual journey that you are on was so much deeper and it’s very universal. That was part of the reason I really wanted you on here, both because as a mother. Actually, my oldest son is on the spectrum. I have a child with ADHD like you do and your younger daughter has ADHD. I have two children with dyslexia and one of them had a speech impediment as well. So we’ve had to work through all of those things. And there is a very real challenge, I think, for kids to feel defined by what they feel like is a deficit. I don’t think the church always handles it well, for reasons like you were talking about, sometimes it’s theological reasons, but sometimes it’s just things like not understanding and anticipating and therefore expecting everybody to fall in certain parameters in terms of how things work in a group or things like that. Often special needs families just end up having to back out or get lost in the shuffle because it’s too hard to stay connected or because judgments are made.

That was one big thing I did try when I was dealing with a new situation; I set it up by saying, “This is my son who’s going to be involved. He is on the autism spectrum. He’s very high functioning.” I’d start with, “He’s great at all of these things. This is the way he does need extra support and we’re really excited we’re going to be a part of this.” Most of the time, if people knew what was going on, they were willing to be supportive. Of course, if you don’t have a diagnosis, it’s really hard, but if they don’t know, then they’re far more prone to assume behavior issues instead of recognizing sensory things.

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Right. And disrespect and dishonor and all of the D’s. One of my friends, who’s also a mom of someone on the spectrum, said, “You’ve got to know the D’s. What really is disrespect, disobedience and dishonor? And what’s really disorder, diagnosis and difference? Because if you confuse those 2 things, you can’t really punish a difference, a sensory issue. Can a person on the spectrum and ADHD be disrespectful and dishonoring? Of course they can, but in the moment when they’re dysregulated. That’s very confusing in church settings, especially because I’m Gen X and most of the teachers would have been boomer or older. There would have been a, “Look me in the eye. I told you to do this one time, sit down, stop asking questions.” If you have that kind of leadership with a neurodivergent child, which could be any form of learning processing, ADHD, autism.  If you think about what church is supposed to be for our kids and their discipleship groups, whether it’s Awanas or Rangers or Missionettes or whatever your program is, there’s a learning aspect. There’s reading, writing, listening, and sitting still; making sure they understand the concept. 

All kids are black and white thinkers, but autistic kids are super black and white thinkers. So do they really understand the concept? Asking questions is not being argumentative. It’s, I don’t understand, please tell me more. I’ll never forget this. My child was eight years old and she came home and said, “I don’t believe in Jesus and God anymore after today’s lesson at church.” I was internally, “Don’t freak out.” But I asked her questions. She said, “We read the scripture today and it was a translation that said when Jesus was in the grave, He slept.” She had said – and this is eight year old reasoning – “If Jesus didn’t die and He just slept, He didn’t rise again and He’s not really the savior. Therefore, I don’t believe in Him.” I was like, “Okay, let’s get another translation out and read the different ways. Slept sometimes meant death in ancient times.”

We had to really do that. If she had not said that, that was already starting to cement in her head. “Church is a lie. Scripture is a lie. Jesus never died, He just slept. I sleep and get up. That’s not dying and rising again.” At eight years old, we had to double back with different translations. What a Greek word meant there, and how it was translated into English, for an eight year old to understand it. Then she was like, “Oh, okay. So Jesus died and rose again. He’s the Savior again. I believe.” 

We have to really make sure what’s happening at church and at home, we ask, “What did you hear? What does that mean? Let’s circle back and talk about some of these things.” Please answer my child’s question at church y’all. Please answer her questions.

Rosanne Moore: For sure. Oh my goodness. One of the things I can remember when Michael was… probably two years old because Anita Grace was a newborn. We were making cranberry orange bread and I had him put the cranberries into the food processor and as I turned to get another ingredient, he dumped them all back out. Then all of a sudden I realized, he looked very happy and smiley and he started putting them back in. He was shape sorting. He had a shape sorter, he was shape sorting. That was my first picture in my head very clearly of: this child always has a reason for what he’s doing, but how he’s looking at the world is very different from how I am.

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: It could’ve looked like disobedience. It could’ve looked like wrecking the project. It could have looked like just being contrary.

Rosanne Moore: Being curious at that point and asking the question, “What are you thinking? What were you doing? What are you doing? Why don’t you believe in Jesus? What was said in Sunday school?” is really important instead of panicking. 

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Internally I was panicking. I was totally in freak out panic mode.

Rosanne Moore: I’m sure

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: We are too young for a faith crisis.

Rosanne Moore: That’s so good. You brought up the whole issue of relationality because your response had to be instead of authoritarian, “This is what we believe the Bible says.” You instead engaged her question and explored where the thought was coming from. And then you could trace it back.

I think that’s one of the things that Dr. Larry Crabb talked about a lot. He talks a lot in his books about relational holiness, that being curious, following where the Spirit is going, actually listening and honoring the person who’s in front of you by engaging. That it’s not a matter of teaching. It’s finding out what’s happening inside the person in front of you, trusting that the Spirit of God is at work in both of you. You want to follow that instead of just assuming or trying to pour into somebody else. 

What’s that been like in your journey? I know we’ve talked a little bit and you had your journey of finding out the external things about sensory disorders and how that works, but it’s always been in a Christian context of, what does this mean as far as relating to one another and loving each other and spiritual formation?

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: I think, back in my late twenties, early thirties as a young mom and kids early diagnosed and just trying to figure out like, how do I help each child reach their potential? I always would say to my oldest, “Autism is a part of you, but it doesn’t define you.” Or sometimes I would say, “Do you have autism or does autism have you today? It’s a piece of you, don’t deny that part of your identity.” So we got to understand that. 

Erica with her ADHD was more inattentive, not really hyperactive or getting in trouble. She was usually the favorite child in any school or church activity, whereas Sidney was usually like, “Does she have to come back? Can you stay with her?” They had completely different experiences at church 

I think then, I was in survival mode, I would call it. I was just trying to help my kids and help them reach their potential.I neglected their relationship to each other a lot. I wish for all the therapies that we had, I wish I could go back and do it again, because their relationship fell apart over the years. And I missed that. I also missed that because Erica was more compliant, a people pleaser, I didn’t ask her as many questions. Sydney was obvious if she was melting down or dysregulated, it was obvious. Erica wouldn’t, she wasn’t a squeaky wheel. I did not do my due diligence to say, “How are you doing? How did that interaction affect you?” So that was missing. 

My husband and I were just talking about this week, where did we really start emotionally healthy spirituality? Because we grew up in a holiness context. It’s, how much of your shoulders are showing and your knees are showing or are you going to church? Are you reading your Bible? Are you serving the church for so many hours? We grew up learning that holiness is being set apart by doing and looking different, instead of relational love and loving each other. There wasn’t abuse or anything in our family and our home, but we weren’t relating well. It was really during this time of trauma when we were displaced from our home, because of a tree. 

When you get to a place where you have no home and all of your belongings are gone and you have no vehicles, talk about being totally reliant on God for everything. It really put us – and then COVID. We were locked in the house essentially with two kids in different spaces in two different schools. We picked up Emotionally Healthy Relationships by the Scazzero’s. We’ve started teaching that and we started practicing those tools with each other and teaching other couples how to do that.

Each of our children had a “Come to Jesus moment” with us where they wanted to tell us some things. Because of that, we didn’t go into the authoritative, “I’m the parent. How dare you speak that to me?” But, “Okay, something’s really going on. There’s pain here. We’ve missed something here. Let’s listen incarnationally as theScazzero’s would say, and ask questions, be curious.” We say that all the time, be curious and humble, not prideful and entitled. 

If you’re entitled, and you think you already know everything, and that you can’t learn something from the younger generation, that’s going to be a block, because the younger generation wants authenticity. They like organic stuff. They like feeling like they can impact you as much as you’re impacting them. They want that reciprocity and mutuality and relationship. They’re not as hierarchical as some of us grew up in. They want to be part of the discussion. Changing that learning mindset and learning to relate and ask questions.

The book just finished it off with a nice bow to help us really see each other’s perspectives better. But it’s definitely been a journey that holiness and set apart is also back to what Jesus said, “By this, they will know that you are my disciples: how you love one another.” Not how you serve your church, not how you read your Bible and get your gold stars, but how you treat the people in your marriage, in your home, and the people God’s entrusted you. Start there. That was really transformative for us.

Rosanne Moore: Not whether or not you preach all the right sermon points.

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: The younger generation is looking. They are watching that what you’re saying and what you’re doing match. One of the biggest things that I’m working on with kids who are deconstructing right now is: “My mom or dad was one way at church. The best volunteer, smiley, everybody loved them. But it was a completely different temperament and mood at home. If I could have lived with the person I saw at church, that’s one thing. But the person I see at home and how she speaks to us or lies on the phone or gets out of things or is harsh with each other. My parents’ marriage did not reflect anything that I was hearing about how a marriage and family should be.” I think that’s why this younger generation isn’t marrying, they’re living together. When I’m talking to them, the under-thirties, they didn’t see modeled in their parents what they were hearing at church was supposed to be a Godly marriage and family. That disconnect and cognitive dissonance is part of a lot of the deconstruction that we’re seeing right now. 

Rosanne Moore: I agree. I think I’m seeing that. I’m working with a lot of women who are saying, “ I did all the things. I stayed sexually pure. I married a Christian. I did all the things and I ended up in an abusive marriage which was a disaster. And now not only am I divorced or trying to figure out what to do with this marriage that’s destroying me, but my kids don’t want to have anything to do with marriage because even though we have a 40 year marriage, it’s a nightmare and they know that.” 

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: If that’s marriage, I don’t want it. No thank you.

Rosanne Moore: Exactly. When we miss the heart of the gospel – the fact that we are saved to become like Jesus in the way that we live, not in a checklist way like you’re talking about, but in the way that we treat other people and the way that we value other people – what motivates us? Because sometimes we have to say things that are hard to hear, but is the motivation for that the well being of the other person or is there entitlement involved? Things like that are really important.

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: That leads me to this special niche that we find ourselves in. A lot of times when a child is diagnosed on the spectrum, a parent or a grandparent has it too, because it’s 80 percent hereditary. We are working with what we are calling neurodiverse Christian couples. A little nuance here is like when I gave that story about Sydney and what she heard at church. Adults on the spectrum are also black and white and literal concrete thinkers. Sometimes a verse like, “Your body is not your own.” In 1st Corinthians, or “Women should be silent,” in Peter or “Wives submit to your husband,” in Ephesians 5, these very literal topics are taken. That’s already in some of our church settings, there’s rules and roles, and you follow the rules and roles, but take out more standard deviation here on our graph of someone who is on the spectrum and is a black and white thinker and was brought up in that church culture. That is usually setting up the household to be under a lot of control. Especially if the dad is on the spectrum, because if the rules mean this and the Bible says this, your feelings and your desires and what you want does not matter. Then add on top of that, I truly believe if I don’t thank you or be harsh with you God is going to be mad at me.

So I’ve got a black and white thinker who’s taking the Word as a weapon instead of a tool. And then I believe if I don’t, God will be mad at me. We have a problem in our neurodiverse Christian families if they’re operating that way. Everything you just said the wife said, “He was a Christian, we are pure and modest, we’re raising our kids well, we homeschooled, we did all the things that conservative Christianity told us to do, and I’m being emotionally abused. And I talk to the guy and this is his mindset. “I’ve never cheated on her. I bring home a paycheck. I don’t go anywhere after hours. So when I come home and I don’t help her do whatever, that’s her job, because she’s the woman. It’s okay you didn’t hit her or you didn’t sleep around.” But there’s emotional neglect and relational neglect and there’s abandonment and there’s rejection and all of those internally.

Research is showing us that emotional and verbal and psychological abuse do the same damage to your brain as physical assaults. One author is calling it domestic silence instead of domestic violence. Your brain has pain. Trauma is trauma, whether it’s physical trauma or another type of trauma. That is not being talked about in our churches because a lot of the women that I worked with their pastors will say, “Then you just need to suffer. You need to take up your cross and you just need to be a better wife,” The “do more” mentality instead of calling the husband into task and saying, “You’re not loving your wife. Some men in the church need to gather around you and help form a community and group identity on how do we help you love your wife and children?” Instead we’re afraid we’re going to lose a tither or a head of households going to leave the church and we’re not doing that level of work. 

That’s one of my little soap boxes I get up on: if we’re really going to teach community, pastors, lay counselors, you’re going to have to do the hard work. When someone says “I’m being abused and harmed and neglected, and my kids are being physically psychologically and emotionally abused,” we have to take that seriously and we need to teach relational spirituality and not just holiness rules. That’s this huge issue. There’s so many divorces in my neurodiverse Christian couples, because at some point she’s like, “I’m out. I tap out. I can’t. My kids are not even respecting me because of the verbal and psychological abuse I take under the guise of submission. They don’t respect me. If that’s marriage, I don’t want marriage.”

It’s creating a lot of cracks in the family. I feel like the church really should be a hub of teaching more about relationships and spirituality, love, and that generosity and charity start at home before you’re volunteering at our church and being in any ministry. How’s it going with your marriage and family?

Rosanne Moore: Absolutely. You talked about the neuroscience. It’s interesting to me that there’s so much pressure that as soon as a woman comes forward or she comes to her pastor, usually what happens is all the things you’re talking about. “What are you doing to try to get him to be better? What are you doing? How did you pray more? You love him more. You do these things to try to get him to be better.” But what’s happening neurologically, the woman who is abused emotionally, her brain scans are like those of a prisoner of war. If we have a prisoner of war, somebody who’s been highly trained to withstand enemy torture and imprisonment, we don’t expect them to escape on their own from that, we believe that we have to go in and we believe it’s our responsibility to go after them and secure them and their wellbeing. The expectation that a woman should just stay in that situation that is so damaging and should just take it and nobody’s coming around her to protect and to intervene and to hold accountable is just wrong. It’s wrong on so many levels and it’s a misrepresentation of the heart of God for the oppressed. And it does no favors for the one who is not loving. That’s the other thing. It’s not just about the victim, the woman or the children. It can be a man in some cases, but statistically, it’s far more frequently the women and children. It also does no favors for the abuser who is going to stand before God and give an account one day and in the meantime, whose prayers are being hindered for not loving his wife. 

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Sometimes the hard thing – I guess if you’re a man, you don’t understand this, but if you’re a male pastor, understand the risk involved for a woman to leave. Especially if she is not the breadwinner, has homeschooled, doesn’t have a career skill and then could possibly lose her church community on top of it. In the time of need and pain, a pastor or an elders board is applying pressure and she tends to be the one excommunicated, not the one who was perpetrating the abuse, harm, or neglect. That adds a double injury. Now we have faith hurt and spiritual abuse and religious abuse. That’s what the kids see, right? The kids are watching and they’re like, “Wow, mom is trying to do what’s right for us and the church or the leadership is saying otherwise.” That’s not helping that next generation and what they’re seeing on who is God the Father. A loving father versus, you didn’t follow the rules, you got a divorce and it’s not adultery. 

I heard this line from a pastor one time and it made me so mad. He said, “We have to pastor both of them.” I was like, I get that. You want to minister to both of them, but that might mean one gets to be ministered to in the church body and one is ministered to one on one over coffee. The one who is being abused or perpetrated against should not be the one kicked out of church or made to feel less than. You can still minister to him one on one on the phone, through coffee, during office hours, and say, “This is part of the Matthew principle. Someone came to you, you didn’t listen. Two people came to you, now we’re going before church leadership. So now it’s time for you not to be here until you change your heart and mindset and love your wife and family well.” 

That is extremely complicated with a black and white concrete thinker when they are taking scripture out of context or too black and white. Again, if you stand on thinking, “I’m right because the Bible and God tells me” and your wife keeps saying, “You’re hurting me, you’re abusing me. I feel neglected by you. This marriage is killing me.” Those are the women I work with having an autoimmune disorder or have some kind of thyroid issue, something that is stress induced. And they’re still being told, “You just have to figure it out. You’re just going to have to choose your husband or choose the marriage to the detriment of your own body to the detriment of your own psychological and spiritual maturity.”

So I challenge that and say, “At the same time, somebody’s got to be parenting these children and someone’s got to still be around to be healthy to be the parent to the kids. So what does that mean for you? How are you going to be emotionally healthy and continue to work with the kids if you can’t even get out of bed in the morning because you’re in so much pain, psychologically, physically or emotionally?” That part is just so missed. Our clergy really needs to be updated on the neuroscience of abuse in all forms. We need to get out of the mindset that adultery is the only way out of marriage. If there’s abuse and addiction and it’s unrepentant, you’ve got to walk alongside the one who was being perpetrated against and not empower the one who was doing those things.

Rosanne Moore: Exactly. Amen. Have you worked at all with Called to Peace Ministries or Chris Moles? 

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: I have not

Rosanne Moore:  They’ve done a lot of work. Chris Moles works with abusers a lot, and one of the things he says is, “The major mistake the pastors make is like hearing the clopping of hooves on the cobblestones and thinking it’s a horse when it’s a zebra.” They hear certain things and they project the idea of what would be true in a good marriage. They don’t understand that the dynamic is one of control rather than love. Then they put the burden on the victim and they enable the perpetrator without even realizing that they’re doing it.

Understanding that, I think that there’s a huge problem in understanding what the dynamics of abuse actually look like. I know when I was going through things, I was trying to figure out what was happening. I didn’t want a separation, but it was looking like that was going to be necessary for safety. The thing that Larry said to me was, “Rosanne, it’s never right for a believer to kill a marriage. But when the spouse has, with their selfishness and their entitlement, killed a marriage, you’re allowed to bury it.”

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Right. Because if we think about the breaking of the vow, here’s where people don’t understand. When you make your vow, it’s I, so and so, take you to love honor and cherish. That is the vow. The next part is the when. In good and bad, and all of that forsaking all others. So the vow was broken under the love, honor, and cherish piece. Forsaking on others is very important to a covenant marriage, but that’s not all of the vow that we usually vow in a Christian marriage. The opposite of love, honor, and cherish, you have apathy, dishonor, and not cherishing or not showing love. Sometimes that is abuse as well. We get all caught up in the adultery part, but wait a minute. Where’s the love, honor, cherish piece that was the vow and the promise that was made? That’s what’s broken. The vow is broken then, not just with an extramarital affair.

Rosanne Moore: In sickness and in health and all those things is when life does those. Better or worse that life does.

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Not that the person is causing sickness and the person is causing financial detriment because they’re gambling or addicted or won’t get a job or won’t stay employed. That’s a whole different reason. It’s like you said, if life happens and there’s a job loss or there’s a cancer diagnosis. That’s what those things mean. It doesn’t mean when one person is causing these other things to happen and inflict them. upon you. That goes against the first part of the vow: to love, honor, and cherish.

Rosanne Moore: Absolutely. I want to go back to the book because you gave the mic to the kids. That’s the phrase my family uses whenever mom’s voice is the dominant voice and they’re not feeling heard, they will say, “Mom you need to pass the mic,” because as parents, we are the dominant voice for early childhood and really in their head for their whole life.

Being conscious of giving voice to your kids, what was most meaningful to you in what came out of working on the book together and hearing your children’s impressions of things? Were there things you learned from them that you’ve just hadn’t seen before until you worked on this project together? 

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Yeah, I think going through certain things, especially some of Sydney’s mental health crisis and bullying and exclusion and all of that/ When you’re in it and you’re like, “Thank God we’re out of it and we’re on the other end.” But reading her stuff and just seeing her perspective. She had never shared with me as a child that she struggled with Psalm 139 about being fearfully and wonderfully made. Again, is that a truth in the scripture? So reading through her thoughts and her feelings, and then where it led to her spiritual formation, one of my favorite things in hers was even once she came back to faith or whatever.

She even used Philippians 4:13 incorrectly. In Christ, I can do all things. It was like, “I’m going to do all things and prove all y’all wrong.” Even with Philippians 4:13, she was taking it out of context. Then it was like, “Oh, wait, now that I’m mature, it means in all things, I need Christ’s strength to do things. I was making it about me and my strength to show you. But now Christ’s strength is how I do things.” Just seeing her formation and her thought processing. She’s in such a great church and great community. They’re all about community and formation. The senior pastor specifically has a heart for the 20 to 30 year olds to make sure they are connected and in places of leadership.

So all of that, and then just seeing there’s mixed feelings of, man, if this could have happened, at an earlier stage, maybe some of these other things wouldn’t have happened. But then, maybe some of these things are part of the reason she’s in this different formation. So for Sydney, that was my mindset there.

For Erica, it was so painful to read because I told her, “When you write your first level of your chapter, you can put it out there and don’t worry about our feelings. Put it out there. We’ll shore it up.” But, she was first writing it out of still an angry and hurt place. The first draft was pretty tough. I had to deal with some internal shame and not go into toxic shame. Like, how did I miss that? How did I not do that? Where was my counselor brain, in those moments? I had a lot of lie apologizing and we’re still working on reconciling and what do we do differently now? She’s like, “Mom, get back to being curious. Ask questions about me, don’t just wait on something to go wrong.” 

And then just seeing the internal struggle, the message she was telling herself about her father and I devastated me. Because that was definitely not what we thought we were communicating, but the way her little 6, 7, 8, 9 year old brain was interpreting things based on the chaos in her home with Sydney at times, that was just so important to the reason of inclusion and intentional relationships. Also the hope of the story is that we’re still in repair and reconciliation, and the girls are in the process of repairing reconciliation and Erica’s reconciling and repairing and forgiving us. It really took the book to bring the rest of the stuff to the surface that had been under the surface and give us that lens.

I would say, “We all have to read each other’s chapters too, because maybe after you read somebody else’s lens, that might change things.” Erica’s chapter is more palatable, more readable. It still reflects pain. It still reflects her true story, but there’s been a shift in her heart of, “Wow, what mom was going through,” or “I had no idea Sydney was suicidal in middle school. That’s why mom was on her so much and keeping an eye on her and wasn’t on me because I wasn’t suicidal.” All of these things from childhood and middle school. It’s now the adult brains going, Oh

I was afraid that at some point, maybe Erica would just get married and move away and never come back. If our relationship would have stayed where it was, that might’ve been the case. Obligation and duty to your mom and dad, visit them on Christmas. But through the book and really being honest about the good, the bad, the ugly, the things we failed at, the things we’re still improving at, then how to reconcile and repair. I think that’s really the most important part of the stories. No matter what you’ve been through, if you’re willing to be humble and curious, you can reconcile and repair relationships.

Rosanne Moore: I love that. That’s the hope of the gospel, right? The hope of the gospel is not that we get saved and now we do it right forever. The hope of the gospel is that we have joined in following a Savior who is there to save us at every point where we need saving and it’s ongoing. We walk with Him, we become more like Him. So seeing failure is the doorway to grace. Not being able to own our failure is not an impediment to the presence of God, it is the doorway to receive the grace that He wants to lavish on us. So I love that. I love that you were able to do that and do that as a family and to offer that to one another. Also to not have to rush the process to let it heal as it heals instead of trying to just sweep it all under the carpet and make it all okay quickly.

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Which we like to do in the South. If there’s conflict, stick it under that rug and just move on.

Rosanne Moore: Exactly. That happens too often in the church as well. Everybody forgives and it’s all gone. The honest ownership is so important in letting people heal. 

Stephanie, I don’t want to. I think I have to wrap up and let you get on with your day soon. Is there anything else that you want to share about the book before we close? I really want to encourage listeners to get this book and to check out Stephanie’s podcast too, especially if you’re in a neurodivergent marriage, or if you’re if you know someone who is, I think her podcast would be a fantastic resource. This is a great book for churches as well, whether or not you’re dealing with someone on the spectrum yourself, you’re going to be in society so it would be a great resource. But anyway, anything else you want to bring forward?

Dr. Stephanie Holmes: Part of our hope of this book is, first of all, it’s four different people’s perspectives. If you want to understand autism or ADHD or different perspectives, I think the book does that. If you are not on an autism journey, but you’re on a special needs journey or a child with differences journey, I think it still has some crossover. If you’ve been through infertility and all of that, I think that there’s connections there. If you are a husband who’s on the spectrum or you have a child on the spectrum and maybe you don’t go to the IEPs and you don’t understand all of that, this could be a quick way to catch you up on maybe what’s going on in your child’s life.

The second population we really hope purchases the books are pastors and children’s and youth workers. As Christians, what we want so much as a marriage and family is we want to be part of a faith community. We want to be included. We want our kids to be included. If you don’t include my child, I can’t come. If you don’t include that child, what are they missing in their spiritual formation and what are they taking on about how God sees them? 

Sidney said to me one time, “If the Christian school and the church doesn’t want me, how do I know God really wants me?” She was kicked out of three Christian schools and asked several times to leave various church functions. So from a 6, 7, 8 year old’s perspective, Christian school and my Christian church do not want me present. How do I know God wants me and loves me? And why would He curse me? To make me this way where other Christians don’t want to be near me. That is devastating. So if you work in children’s work or youth ministry, you are so important for inclusion and belonging and acceptance. Dr. Wilder would say, “Hesed means I’m for you.” They need people for them. 

We’ve created a workbook as well. That’s on another website, but we have a workbook where you could do small groups and we have these questions for you. We say if you are the person on the journey, you’re on the unforeseen journey, then you’re the family in the passenger sheet. But we also have a section that says if you are a caregiver, extended family, respite or someone who’s going to help this family along their journey, this will really help you. I’m super excited because, we did not have a blended family perspective, we’re still a nuclear family, but I partnered with Ron Deal, who is a stepfamily expert, so there is a chapter talking about blending your family if a child is on the spectrum and blending your family if a partner is on the spectrum. I think that adds one more layer to make sure stepfamilies have help. I have someone who was a single parent, John Felageller, of Joni and friends. He wrote from being a single parent’s perspective of someone on the spectrum and the kind of support he needed as a single parent dad. We didn’t get everything in there. Culture and diversity is a little bit lost, different people experience people of color, but we hope that at least you can get the book and either identify with the journey or learn how to better serve and minister to someone on the journey so that we can come back to our whole thing: Emotional and healthy spirituality transformation, belonging, attachment, Hesed, joy. That’s why we do this. We hope that will be a good resource for you.

Rosanne Moore: Wonderful. That’s great. Thank you so much, Stephanie, for being with us today. For those of you who are listening, check out the show notes, you can find the links to her book and to her podcast and some of the other resources that she mentioned. They’ll all be there in the show notes and we’ll look forward to seeing you next week. Thanks so much. Bye bye.

What is prayers role in handling conflicts or tensions? Join us as we chat about this important topic

Bio: Since 2007, Duncan has served as a bi-vocational minister with International Christian Ministries (ICM), Compassion International, Cadence International, and Larger Story (LS), where he regularly contributes to LS vlogs, webinars, and podcasts. Duncan brings his passion for trinitarian-relating and relational development, along with years of rich cross-cultural experience to every person and place he serves. Since 1994, Colorado has been home to Duncan and Angie and is the birthplace of their four adult children.

Show Note Links:   

The PAPA Prayer

Transcript

Kep Crabb: Hello, everybody. Thanks for joining us today on Relational Spirituality. The podcast brought to you by Larger Story. I am joined today by a familiar voice. As you hear the intro to this podcast, you might recognize the voice, but now you get to see the face as well. Good friend of mine and a colleague, Mr. Duncan Sprague. Thanks for joining me today, man.

Duncan Sprague: Hey Kep, it’s great to be with you again. I love being with you and chatting through whatever important topic we’re going to talk about.

Kep Crabb: We’ve been talking about prayer and we’ve really been focusing on and looking at The Papa Prayer in respect to how that impacts our prayer lives and what is our prayer life about?

But today we’re going to go a little bit off of that. I think it still stays within the context of prayer, but it’s, how do we resolve some of the tensions or some of the conflicts that we run into? Those might be with friends, those might be with colleagues, those might be with spouses. Where do we start on some of that? I think that’s something that I think a lot of people are interested in and no one is immune from. We’ve all had tensions. We’ve all had struggles. We were just chatting through this. We’re doing this at the last minute.

Also, I apologize. I’ve got a head cold now, so if I start coughing or something, please bear with me. I’ve got some water over here, but I guess it is that cold and flu season coming up, but just a little head cold going on. 

Dunc, I wanted to start off by saying you’ve been married now for how many years?

Duncan Sprague: 33 years coming up on 34.

Kep Crabb: You and Angie. I know your wife. I know both of you guys. We’ve been in a couple of different small groups together and are currently in one. You guys have never had an argument or a disagreement or anything like that?

Duncan Sprague: No. I love your dad’s famous line of, “When we get in conflict, she repents and then we’re okay.” I’ll put my lightning rod up right now. 

Kep Crabb: Good thing she’s not sitting next to you. That was always Dad’s joke when he was talking about mom and some of that conflict.

Duncan Sprague: Yes. Everybody out there knows that it’s a joke and if you don’t, please don’t write letters. It is a joke.

Kep Crabb: No question. I know Duncan’s wife well, she’s one of the sweetest ladies on the planet. When you go through some of those kinds of things, we’ve talked about this whole conflict issue. And no one’s immune from it. We all are going to be subject to it at some time and some of us in some depth of ways that kind of scare me, with brothers who won’t speak to each other anymore, or people who used to be very close friends now can’t hardly be in the same room.

What do you do about that kind of stuff?

Duncan Sprague: I think one of the first things that I do is, it does drive me to prayer. I always have to ask God, “What of this is mine? Search my heart oh God, know my way. See if there’s any wicked way in me.” Because there’s plenty of it there that gets in the way of relationships. That’s the premise I always begin with. Conflict is neither right nor wrong. It’s inevitable. It’s coming whether you want it or not. It actually is the sign of a healthy relationship where two people come together and engage with one another. I know I’ve done lots of premarital counseling and I stole a line from your dad. I don’t know where he stole it from, but the common line is, getting married is like a tick on a dog relationship. The problem is that there’s two ticks and no dog. And that’s the reality. When you come into a marriage, when you come into a relationship, you have two people that are desperately needy.

What’s Pascal’s famous line? “Inside every person is a God shaped vacuum trying to suck life, a God shaped vacuum that only God can fill. And yet, we try to fill it with every person we come across, especially our spouses.” And that’s why conflicts inevitably show up, because I’m asking something of my wife that she was never intended to give. It’s at that point when the collision happens, the marital bliss turns into a marital battle. It’s at that point that you start to ask, so how do you work through conflict? And I think the important word is through.

Kep Crabb: I think the thing is, you start to talk about marital issues. I think of myself with Kimmie, we’ve been married now going on 30 years, we’ll be celebrating 30 years in a couple of months. We’ve got some experience under our belt a little bit. We’ve had our fair share of conflict for sure. It’s interesting how, when you first get married, you’re standing up there and it really is that tick on a dog kind of a mentality. You’re excited, what are you going to do for me? You make me feel in a certain way. And then as you go through it, I guess the next thing that happens is you get very disillusioned and discouraged. You just feel this is not what I signed up for. And then as you continue to move through that, because the one thing Kimmie and I know with you and Ange as well, we just said, there’s no backdoor here. We’re not ever going to shut this deal down. There’s nothing that can do that. So no matter what we go through, we’re in it till the end. Which was really interesting because she comes from…

A little bit of my wife’s background. Her mother’s been married a handful of times and and currently single. There’s a lot of that. So when she met my family, she thought, wow, this is interesting. You’ve got a mom and a dad who still love each other. It’s just a fairytale thing. I didn’t know anything different, but after 30 years, I think we look at each other now and say, we’ve been through some deep waters, but we’re really experiencing that oneness that I think scripture talks about in a way. That’s new in the last few years, even since her diagnosis. That’s just an interesting thing. We’ve moved through those conflicts and we’ll talk about how to do some of that, maybe some thoughts on it, but you really come out of that with a better understanding of what that friendship or what that relationship, what that marriage, whatever that may be, of the depth of that and how you really do start to care for someone more than yourself. That’s what I’ve seen. But as you’re going through it, the conflict can be hell and can be very painful. Yeah. What about some of that, Dunc?

Duncan Sprague: The hellish elements of it are the ones that you realize, it really isn’t hell, but it echoes it a lot because what is hell? It’s isolation away from the presence of God. And if God’s presence is not there, then that means it’s isolation from any presence. It means that you are utterly alone. So that is where I think every marriage goes through that, where you say, I feel abandoned. I feel alone. I feel like they’re not hearing, they’re not understanding. I think that’s the part that Satan really wants to get you lost in those scripts, where it will just replay in the theater of your mind, all the vengeful things and what does love do, but doesn’t keep track of wrongs done. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t remember them, but it doesn’t hold it up as part of the scorecard.

I think that’s the part that I go to in those hellish moments. It’s easy to grab the old violations and go, see doing it again. Instead, God says, no, put that card away and see how much I’ve forgiven you. I think that’s the part that always gets me, we can love because He first loved us. We can forgive because of how much He’s forgiven us. I think the difficulty, and I’ve seen this in multiple marriages that have ended, it’s when the person says, I will not look inside any longer. I will not self evaluate. I am not to blame. It’s the other person. That’s when our prayers even change at that point.

Here’s the one piece, and I love this part about the Apostle Peter. He’s the only apostle that we’re certain was married, because we know Matthew tells the story, and actually in Mark, actually it’s recorded, I think, in the synoptic gospels, the three that are the same, or that are similar. We find out that Jesus has healed the mother in law of Peter. So we know if there’s a mother in law, there must be a wife. So Peter then in his later writings gives us this anecdotal advice for living with a spouse. So I know he’s speaking from experience and this is what he says in he has a whole section in 1 Peter 3 on husbands and wives, but the verse that we really want to camp on because it gives us great advice of what it means to live with our wives. So it says, “Likewise, husband – so this is to you and me – live with your wives in an understanding way.” Now, we don’t know fully what he means by an understanding way. We have some ideas, but then we always get lost in this next phrase, “Showing honor to her – to the woman – as the weaker vessel.” We get lost, especially in today’s climate where women say, I’m not weak but we lose the whole context here and we get lost in that phrase. It’s like a speed bump now in the text and we don’t go on to see why. “Since they are heirs with you of the grace of life.” That’s what it means to honor. They’re equal heirs with you in the promise of God so that, and this is still talking to the husband, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

We missed the fact of why Peter’s saying this. He says, I don’t want your prayers to be hindered. We’re in a quarter that we’re talking about prayer. Here’s advice to husbands. You want to keep a good prayer life, live with your wife in an understanding way. I just want to unpack what that means.

I think the physical side is where most scholars land. They say, okay, they’re weaker in a physical sense. Not in labor pains and those kinds of things, but just in strength of bodies, bone structure and all that kind of biological makeup. But I think that it’s even more the fact that he calls us vessels and calls her the weaker vessel. We’re called vessels elsewhere. 2 Corinthians says that we’re all vessels. God has put His riches in vessels of clay, in earthen vessels. So it’s not that either one of us are strong vessels, neither one of us are. There’s weak and weaker. Why would God make weak vessels?

If you talk to any archaeologists, they would say when you go, if you find a pristine vase from antiquity, you found a really rare thing, because what you mostly find is shards of broken pieces, because every clay pot is intended to hold something, but at some point it breaks. It cracks. Our tendency is, let’s patch it up. But God says, no, I put the riches in you so that as you are broken, my riches will pour out. I think that part of what Peter’s after is saying they’re a weaker vessel. So when my wife prays, there is rarely a time that she doesn’t end up in tears because her prayers are so close to the feeling of what’s going on. We just said goodbye to our son, launched him officially to his first full time missionary job, and she was leaking everywhere. She set an example for me where I refuse to be broken. She is willing to be broken. So I live with my wife in an understanding way that when she is broken and the riches pour out, honor her. She’s setting an example for me so that my prayers are not hindered. 

This is where I go that I think the best example is you can look at Genesis. Look at how Adam’s conversation changed with God before the fall and after the fall. Before the fall, “Oh, this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. Whoa, man, this is a woman. You can see that.” And then after the fall, he no longer lives in an understanding way of her, he lives mostly in an understanding way of himself. “It’s the woman you gave me, Lord.” His conversation changed. Prayer became a point for blame accusation. Don’t let me take any consequences.

I think Peter as the only married apostle gives us great advice to live in a world that will break us and then to let the riches pour out. 

Kep Crabb: Yeah, I didn’t know we were going to go this direction at some level. That’s interesting. As you start to say some of this, even in respect to prayer, this has been my big thought for the last several weeks and months really. The only thing that we’re aware of that the Lord was asked by the disciples is teach us how to pray. I’m sure they asked Him other things too but the only thing that we’ve been told in scripture. There’s something really important about that. When you’re talking about understanding your spouse without having your prayers being hindered. That just brings chills to my neck.

What does it mean to have your prayers hindered where they aren’t doing what you’re asking of them? Praying in a way that allows you to have that connection with the Lord in a relational connection, that’s the whole notion of The Papa Prayer. How do we meet God? It’s so easy to come to God and say, I want this and I want this and I want this. And the whole notion of prayer from what I understand is really a legal term, it’s to petition. We’re redefining it as an opportunity to get to know the God of the universe.

How does that then impact when you’re in a conflict ? You’re having a fight with someone, whether it be Angie or someone else. How does that then impact that moment?

Duncan Sprague: One of the things that I think is, I have to know what my default mechanism is when I get in conflict. We often talk in terms of when conflict happens, we have one of two responses, fight or flight, but I actually think that there’s more. We don’t just flee conflict. We flee it. We fight it. Sometimes we do both. Both of those are when we are stuck in a battle. I think that Ephesians 5 or 4 when Paul talks about he’s given some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be these things so that we might grow up in our faith so we might mature.

Then he says, by speaking the truth in love, what maturity looks like. Truth. Not pretending to love, not pulling back. Those two things are always at play in any conflict. So in a conflict, I’m always saying, is this true? I’m going to fight you over the truth of the matter, or is there a value of relationship that’s in jeopardy?

You said at the very beginning, friends and brothers and siblings that no longer talk to each other, relationships that have gotten lost, and at some point, they’ve said the truth isn’t worth fighting for, and the relationship isn’t worth fighting for, so I flee. I run from it.

Kep Crabb: There’s other things too. I know we’ve talked about that, but I always wonder this. I talked to a friend of mine just the other day, who has a friend who just got divorced after 50 years of marriage, and I just never understood that. Of course, I don’t know the details, but I’m guessing that marriage has long been dissolved or dead or whatever we want to call it for years. They just finally decided to call it a day. But I’ve never understood how someone would put so much time into a relationship like that just to say, I’m done with it now.

That’s where I think the whole notion of the way you’re talking about when you feel the Spirit leading through you. I’ve seen this the last little bit when Kimmie and I’ve had some conflicts and some tensions. What does it mean to really put her first? It’s been interesting because the fights are different and we’ve had some in the past that I’m just not proud of in any way shape or form. 

Just to be honest with you folks who are watching us today, I had initially talked with a couple of different people and said, if we talk about this subject, should we bring Kimmie? I asked Kimmie, would you like to join me? Of course she’s not into doing podcasts or anything like that. But she also said, do you really want to know how you and I fought back in the day and let all those people know? I thought, huh, maybe not, that’s a good point. I handled it very poorly and very immaturely, but I’m seeing us fight now in a different way now that allows us to get to the other side in some ways. I really do want her to know that I care about her more. That’s so important to me.

Duncan Sprague: You’re battling for something different. This is the thing that I’m realizing, even as you were just talking. Before I am a husband to my bride, I am a disciple of Jesus. Jesus says it himself. If you’re going to be my disciple, if you’re going to follow me, the first thing is to deny yourself. That’s the beginning. We oftentimes put that up as the pinnacle of real maturity. No, the mature disciples, they are the ones who deny themselves. And Jesus says, no, you can’t. That’s the doorway into being my disciple. You begin by saying, I am not the point. Deny yourself, pick up a cross. What for? I have a friend who used to preach this. He used to say, “Marriage is God’s clever way to get us all crucified.” Isn’t that true?

Kep Crabb: I saw a comedian the other night that Kimmie and I were watching and he’s a Christian comedian. He said, God says to the angels, “Hey, come on over here. Watch what I do. I’m going to put this guy together with this gal. Oh, this is going to be incredible. Let’s just see what happened.” But you said something the other day that really stuck with me. This was maybe a month or so ago, but we were talking about some things and you said you were, in the middle of doing some counseling with some people. You didn’t name any names, but you talked to Dad and said, Larry, how can I break through? How can I help these people? How can I help save this marriage? And then Dad said to you and help me if I’m wrong here, but the marriage is already dead. This marriage is dead. And that kind of caught you off balance. And then he went from there a little bit more, unpacked that a little bit.

Duncan Sprague:  This actually goes back almost 30 years when I was actually studying under Larry. I was interning and I was counseling the wife. I found out he was counseling the husband. This was my first consultation with Larry and I’m thinking, we’re going in to save this marriage and we’re going to work together as a team. You can hear my assumption that the goal in counseling them is to fix this marriage. I said, so what do we do to help fix this marriage? That was the energy; we’re going to fix it. His response was, “Oh, this marriage has been gone for a long time. There is no resurrecting this one.”

I remember going, so what are we doing? What’s the purpose of counseling? And he said something really poignant. It’s stuck with me ever since. He said, do you think that God put these two people on this earth to be married to each other? Is that His number one calling on their life? The highest calling over there. I said it’s up there, isn’t it? He says, not even a close second. The number one goal for their lives is to glorify God and make them known. And I go, yeah. And he says, now your goal in counseling them is to help them become the most glorious divorced person possible, because that’s where they’re heading. Their identity isn’t being divorced. Their identity is still a child of God. 

All of a sudden, my categories got blown out of the water. It just put that as the first priority: whatever circumstance you’re in, whether married or divorced, your primary calling in life is to glorify God by putting Him on display in the ways that you relate, think, and live. We’ve got some dear friends that we know well that are in the middle of that same process right now. That was the first thing I said to them. I said, I’m not going to choose sides with you guys. But I am going to come alongside and say, how do you glorify God and not continue to destroy each other in this process and not destroy the children that are part of this marriage. That’s the rippling effect; not just one marriage that is destroyed. It’s a whole community of connections. 

Kep Crabb: That’s how we’re all linked. You said one time earlier, the whole notion of isolation is really where Satan wants to do his most impressive work by ourselves. We’re actually going to be doing a conference at the end of January in Tennessee. And we’ve titled it “Not Myself by Myself.” We’re meant to be in community. We’re meant to live in community. That’s where Satan doesn’t quite get quite the toehold that he wants to get as he’s coming at, as he’s coming at us.

So I guess as we’re thinking about conflict, even in the midst of prayer, how does prayer in the midst of community, as you’re going through conflict, allow you to get outside of yourself? I used to think, and this was always in retrospect until recently, in the middle of a fight, can I quit saying what I’m saying and get out of myself and say, Kep, you’re being really dumb here and you’re not thinking very well at all. You’re letting your emotions take over, take control, whatever. I always come to that conclusion a few hours after the fight’s over thinking, yeah, sure. Wish I would have handled it this way or that way. Now in the midst of that moment, I’m starting to think that way a little bit more. I think Kimmie’s responding to that in ways that are even to other people, if I have tension with them and conflict that I think feels better.

Duncan Sprague: I would guess that if we were a fly on the wall, watching you in the new ways that you’re thinking in the middle of a conflict, my guess is we get in there and listen to what’s going on in your head. There’s another conversation going on besides just the one with your wife. There’s a horizontal conversation going, “Father, if I keep in my ways, I’m going to keep messing things up. What’s really true right now? What should I camp on? Because I want to bury and this is my way of relating with my wife.”

We’ve identified our normal ways of relating when we are our typical conflict strategies when we get it in the middle of a fight. I bury her with words. I just start to reason. I get real rational and I concentrate on the truth. But here’s what I do. I debase the truth because I make the truth something other than a person. What did Jesus say? I am the way, the truth. So the truth ultimately is not propositional. It’s personal. I get in this fight with her that avoids love and wants to only fight about what’s mostly true and my truth. So she will tend to flee things. I will tend to fight them. If she stops fleeing, her tendency then is to go to the opposite pendulum. So I’ll honor the truth and I want to value honesty and she’ll value relationship. 

Larry used to always talk in terms of, we oftentimes say that I’m a rationalist, I’m a reasonable person, or another person will say, I’m a romantic. I’m a feeler through life, but the reality is we must be both. We don’t get to say I’m one or the other, it’s science or faith. It really is. You have to live in both worlds, so it’s truth and love, and that’s where she lives only in that love side of things and denies truth. I’m not going to think about it. It’s too complicated. She’ll end up faking love in order to control love. If that makes sense. She’ll ignore the truth and really debase love. She’ll make it something cheaper than it is. It means I’ll just give in. And it’s the proverbial doormat who says, I’ll just let you walk all over me. But those are the extremes. So my extreme is I’ll fight it. She’ll fake it. But then at some point we start to come together. We say, okay, I’m going to stop fighting. So this is some of what may go on in your mind. I’m going to stop fighting God. And if it will help, if I force it a little bit, I’ll force a little bit of relationship, I’ll feel, I’ll try to use some sympathetic and empathetic words. I’ll force it. But she feels it every time. She goes, that’s not authentic. What she’ll do is she’ll say, if this will fix the relationship, that energy of fixing. 

The flesh has its operating instructions during conflict to flee it, fight it, fake it, force it, or fix it. That’s our way of dealing with it in the flesh. What God says is no honor, a hundred percent of the truth, honor, a hundred percent of the relationship and face it. I love what your dad used to say. Your dad used to say, I refuse to pretend about anything. I don’t want to get lost in honesty and start pretending. I love what Paul says in Hebrews, or the writer of Hebrews says, he says, we are not those who shrink back. So in love, we don’t shrink back. We stay present. And in truth, we continue to refuse to pretend. This is going to be ugly. The truth has come out, but it’s my ugly truth. It’s not just her ugly truth. And here’s the big thing: the only thing that’s going to bring us together when conflict happens, the only way to connect in connecting, is confession. Me confessing my sin, not hers. That’s the blame game. When I start confessing hurt for her, one of the folks in our small group says confession is just telling on myself. I think in conflict, if you don’t begin with self denial and telling yourself confession, you’ll never move on to connection.

Kep Crabb: I love that because those are some real practical things to think about in the midst of conflict, which is the most challenging time to get practical. It’s easy to do it before the conflict happens. Maybe you can apply some that are after saying, I wish I would’ve applied some of that. But one of the things that I hear you saying too and that really has been helpful to me is, how do you allow the Spirit to lead you in those moments when you’re having this conversation, not so much this, while at the same time having this conversation. What I’ve really tried to focus on in the midst of those moments is this conversation.

That’s the one going on in here, which only I’m privy to and Him, no one else is privy to that. It also allows me to keep this closed because man, this thing gets me in trouble. So much. I’ve had too sharp of a tongue in too many ways with too many people that cut very deeply. Those are things that I’ve had to apologize for.

Duncan Sprague:  I’m guessing it’s not until you’ve seen the effect of your anger. I think that’s where my wife has been the best mirror for me. I remember one time. We have four children and our second one was always the one that was testing things. He was pushing the buttons all the time. I remember one time he had just set me off and I was going after him. This is a picture of biblical submission. My wife steps in front of me as I was going after him. And she says, there are better parts of you than what you are about to give him right now. I just remember sitting there going, wait, she is not fighting for herself. She’s fighting for our son so that I don’t trounce on him. And she’s fighting for me. She’s submitting to God’s vision for who I can be so that I will give him the best parts of me rather than, I’m going to give you a piece of my mind.

When that same son was young, he was going after our youngest son. Josh and Ben. Josh was going after Ben, he’s two years older, and you know both of my boys. Josh was going after him, I said, if you touch your brother one more time, a spankin’s coming. He didn’t say anything, he looked at me and he started lowering his hand towards his brother. I’m going, don’t you touch him. He just kept lowering it and lowering it. And finally he puts it down and he gives me this little snide look and I just lost. I said, that’s it. A spank is coming. Get up to the bedroom right now. I don’t know why we sent them to the bedroom other than it gave me a moment to cool down. As we’re walking up, the waterworks begin, he starts crying and stuff. As I’m walking up, here’s my prayer. Dear Lord, if I spank him with all that’s inside of me, the anger that’s going on, Lord, I’ll kill him. Lord, help me not to kill my son. And so when we get up to the bedroom, I’m pacing back and forth trying to figure out how I’m going to handle this. This is where you were just asking, how does the Spirit, how do you invite the Spirit in? I think the Spirit will step in and just give opportunities for me not to get lost in myself. As I’m sitting there, I’m trying some of the old tried and true things. I tried the old line that every parent at least one time tries: it hurts me more than it hurts you. Son, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you.

We all know it’s a lie. I know that when I spank him, his bottom is going to hurt more than my hand. But it was as if the Spirit at that moment said, it should hurt you more. It just stopped me in my tracks. It wasn’t an audible voice. But the phrase that came into my mind was, take the spanking for him. I’m having this internal conversation. What do you mean? Take the spanking for himself? Take the spanking. Lean over. So I said, okay, son, if I spank you with everything I’ve got, I’m going to hurt you. I don’t want to hurt you. So I’m taking the spanking. I lean over the bed and he says what do you do? He doesn’t get it. This is where real conflict management will not look as much like management as it will look like surrender. I’m surrendering to something more powerful. It’s what your dad used to say to you, Kep, you can hurt me, but you cannot destroy me. That’s essentially what I was saying to my son is, if I spank you, I’ll hurt you. If you spank me, oh, it might hurt a little, but not much. So he gets back and he swats me on the bum and I said, oh no. I’m more angry than that. And he backs up and he tries again. I said, Josh, if you don’t understand how angry I am, you have to put everything you have in it. And then all of a sudden he comes with all of his might pow. And he says, Oh, it hurt my hand. And I said it’s enough. You’re forgiven, Josh. We will never remember this again, except for when I tell it in a message or on a podcast,

Kep Crabb: I’d love to chat with Josh about that because I bet that was an impacting moment in his life and impact.

Duncan Sprague: He calls it his story. His story. That’s exactly what it becomes. Yeah, it’s my story of forgiveness. My story when grace was given to me because when he went downstairs, he says to Angie, leans into whispers, I just gave Daddy a spanking. My wife says, why? And his response then was, I don’t know. I don’t know. That’s the piece where we always end with the grace of God. I don’t know why He loves us. So I don’t know why He died for me, but He did. He took the spanking for me. That’s when conflict isn’t managed any longer. That’s when conflict is surrendered to grace.

Kep Crabb: What a great story. I think that leads into the next thing that we’ll chat about sometime is parenting. You’ve got four kids. I’ve got two kids. They’re adults. Now my oldest is fixing to have her first child here in a couple months. So we’re excited about that. The whole notion of parenting. That story reminds me of so much of the way that Dad thought about how to raise kids because he wanted to get you to go, huh? What Josh said. I don’t know why I did that, but boy, it felt good and I feel good. That’s right. It did something to me that even now, 20 years later in this kid’s life, it’s his story. 

Dunc, this has been great chatting with you, bro. It’s so fun to unpack this kind of stuff. We all have a story. Each of our stories can be part of God’s larger story. That’s what we want to be. How do we live a life that fits into God’s larger story in the way that He wants us to?

Duncan, I really appreciate you meeting this time. Folks, thanks for joining us on Relational Spirituality today. Join us every Tuesday as we roll out some different thoughts and different things. We’re going to be changing things around in the beginning of the year, but we sure do appreciate you guys joining us. If you like what you’ve seen, please subscribe and have a great evening.

How do you come to God when you’ve repeatedly prayed for a need that remains unresolved? What happens in your heart when you sense God is beckoning you to bring your desires to Him? This week Rosanne Moore picks up where we left off last week in sharing how God’s intervention in Karlene’s life became an invitation for her family to enter old pain and engage on a new journey of trust.

Rosanne Moore’s Bio: 

If Jesus is Who He says He is, why doesn’t being a Christian seem to work better? More to the point, why didn’t it seem to make people better? Those were some of the questions Rosanne Moore was asking about her own life when she first encountered Dr. Larry Crabb’s book Inside Out as a teen and in its pages discovered an invitation to journey into a radically different understanding of what it meant to be a follower of Jesus, one that was focused on relationship with God rather than rule lists or behavior modification.   

Drawing on her background as a writer, editor, reading instruction specialist, language arts tutor, homeschool mom, speaker, and social media marketer, Rosanne now serves as Larger Story’s Communications Director. She has run a successful small business and worked with several missions and church organizations, but her greatest delight is in listening to the unfolding story of God’s work in the lives of others and sharing her own journey of seeking God in every part of life, even (or, perhaps, especially) in our darkest nights.  

  
Nowhere is Rosanne more passionate about seeing God’s redemption cultivated than in the lives of victims/survivors of abuse of all kinds. Her Lifeline course for women escaping domestic abuse was birthed from her personal experience, as well as out of more than two decades of advocacy work serving women and children impacted by intimate terrorism, coercive control, spiritual abuse, and sexual violence.  

A single mom since 2011, Rosanne seeks to create opportunities for rich conversations with her 4 teen & college-aged kids who continually amaze, amuse, and humble her with their awesome selves and their crazy menagerie. She enjoys honest friends who are both hilarious and wise, a lapful of snuggly kitties, and a good book on a rainy day. Lily’s chocolates, Jane Austen movies, and crisp autumn days are a few of her favorite things, and music is her heart’s prayer language.

Karlene Cannon’s Bio: 
  
In 2012, Karlene Cannon sat across a dinner table from Rachael and Larry Crabb and was captivated as Larry talked about his Teleios project- his dream for how his lifework and legacy of relational spiritual formation would be passed on to a new generation on a broader scale than had been possible in his lifetime. That evening eventually led to Karlene joining the staff of Larger Story as the Director of Content and Product Development, where she uses her experience in education, content development, and software business consulting to direct Larger Story’s strategy and create new products that bring to fruition the Teleios vision Larry articulated over a decade ago.  

Karlene has written curriculum, developed retreats, and hosted a large Christian community group in her home in the ensuing years, but nothing has prepared her for the current task of reaching a new generation more than raising 4 children (ages 25, 21, 18, 14) in a family culture where relational formation is the norm, relational holiness is the goal, and the Holy Spirit gets all the credit. As she now launches them into a world rife with divisions on all sides, where the truth is often regarded as optional, Karlene’s vision is to reach this connected-but-lonely generation with the transforming certainty of a relational God and His Larger Story. Her passion has found an outlet in digital course development, content creation, and the kind of spiritual direction that occurs over a cup of coffee, via text, and through long conversations in the car.    

Karlene loves sports (actually, just Duke basketball and whatever her sons are playing), all things vintage and historic, great books, fragrant coffee and crackling fires. She feels God’s pleasure when her home is full of courageous people sharing their hearts and lives for the glory of God and their own growth and healing.  

Show Note Links:   

The PAPA Prayer 

Recordings from The Summit 

The Faithful album project 

“The Detour” song 

The story behind “A Place For You”  

“A Place for You” song 

Transcript

Karlene Cannon: Welcome back Larger Story family. We’re so glad that you have joined us for the rest of this story. We talked last week about some things that God had done in me through what happened back at the Larger Story Summit a couple of years ago. Little did I know at the time that it was just the beginning of what is an even bigger story; you’re going to hear about it today. We ended last week talking about this email that I sent to explain why I left the Summit. I don’t even know if I’ve shared this with you Rosanne, but part of me almost didn’t send it because it felt defensive, like I’m somehow trying to justify why I’m leaving, yet I’m going to share it. God needs to get the credit for this. I want people to know not why I’m leaving – I did honestly want to justify leaving, but I wanted more to show what God was doing at the Summit through Larry and his life that was in some ways bizarre.

I sent the email and just was like, “Whatever you want to do with this, Lord, I’m going to be vulnerable and share my story. And if it’s about me being defensive and I look immature, fine, whatever.” But something really significant happened, like I said, that was a catalyst for an even bigger story. And so Rosanne’s going to share her part of this story.

Rosanne Moore: I don’t know if it’s bigger, but it definitely is that interweaving that we were talking about. Because when I read your email, I was… on the one hand, really excited for you and really in awe of how God had worked that whole situation and how He had met you. But I was also aware of this unpleasant reality in my own heart of this envy that was there that kind of sparked and I said, “No, I don’t want to go there.” I sensed the Holy Spirit. I was like, “Lord, please forgive me.” I just sensed the Holy Spirit going, “No, wait, look at that. Look at that. What’s going on and why are you feeling envious?” 

As I was bringing to the Lord what was happening in me that was not godly at all, what I realized was I felt envious that you had actually had this prayer answered and it was over something that felt… on the one hand, really core to your journey, but on the other hand, like you said, it’s a basketball game. The question I had was, “Why is it so easy for You to do something like that? The things that feel like they really matter, You say no to.” Not that this didn’t matter because it did; it was so much more than just the basketball game for you. I knew that, but the Lord just started really stirring in my heart and asking, “What is it that you really want?” I was just like, “Life is hard.” “No, Rosanne, what is it that you really want? Because you haven’t talked to me on that level for a while now.” And it was true. 

I had hit a point a few years earlier when we went through the aftermath of the divorce. Of course I had prayed for years that things would improve with that and it didn’t. And then praying that God would meet us in the midst of it and things remained grindingly hard for a long time. We hit a crisis point where I was just done. I felt like I had said everything there was to say, and it didn’t make a difference. And so it was just, “Shut down, keep going. I’m not turning away from God, but I don’t have anything left to say to You that hasn’t already been said.”  So I’m just going. “I don’t want you to leave, I don’t want to leave, but I don’t know what else to say.” 

So when I got your email, the Lord was like, “You need to actually start bringing your heart again. What do you really want?” And what immediately rose up in me was I want a home. I want my kids to have a home. 

When we moved from Georgia and sold our house in Georgia in 2009, we knew we were uprooting our lives, but we didn’t expect it to be so displaced for so long. It’s been 14 years, of displacement. We had expected to buy another home right away. That didn’t happen. Then the divorce happened and then the long grinding journey of single parenting and trying to hold things together and trying to make sure the kids were okay and to try to keep the kids safe. In the middle of it, we were living and have been living in the house that I grew up in, which is a hundred years old and is in really bad shape. I had kids who were allergic to it, so it was literally making them sick. But beyond that, it was the displacement of it all. 

So when I put that out there, it was terrifying because I thought, “What is the point of asking for this if you’re not going to do it? Because You haven’t; this isn’t the first time.” I think that’s one of the hard things about prayer is, if I’ve already put my heart out there again and again, and you’ve said, no, and You’re God, and I do believe You know better, You know more about this than we do. That’s your prerogative and all of that. But what’s the point to keep talking?

I think that’s where I was stuck at that point when I got your email.

Karlene Cannon: I think that’s something that, as a body of believers, we’re not willing to talk about. We cavalierly say that God is sovereign in His yes and His no, but we don’t actually deal with the pain of the no, and the cascade of things that happen internally with that repeated no. Particularly in something big. If God said no to the basketball game, I might have been disappointed for a day, but I would have enjoyed the Summit. But when you’re talking about something that is so life critical as the place that you live and keeping your kids safe, these are things where the no is really costly. You feel that every day. It tests your faith in a way that’s just excruciating at best and maybe at worst. I’m interrupting you a little bit, but how did you keep going with that no?

Rosanne Moore: I think, I didn’t know it was going to be 14 years. So initially I still had the hope that it was going to resolve sooner rather than later. So I thought, okay, we’re just not there yet. It’ll happen in a few years. Let’s get this leveled out. Then instead of things leveling out, the next shoe would fall. For a while there, from 2009 until 2017 so eight years, it was like dominoes. It was like one thing after another, I think we’d get through one thing and the next worst thing would happen. There was no stability for all that time. Actually it was 2018, so 9 years. It was just keep holding on, keep putting one foot in front of the other. The thing that I kept saying to the kids when they’d say, “We’re never going to get out of here.” I was like, “Sooner or later, you will grow up, you will live someplace else at some point. Seasons do change. I don’t know why this one is lasting as long as it is, but seasons do change.” 

I’ve been through enough really hard, long seasons. I spent nine years with an autoimmune disease that looked like it was going to take my life or be the rest of my life and it didn’t. Seasons change and I know that. But in the middle of a season that’s that long and that hard, and you don’t know how long, it’s really easy to just get into survival mode. There’s pros and cons to that. It’s easy for someone outside to say, “You’re in survival mode. You should do X, Y, Z.” If you’re surviving, survival mode is what you have the resources for. Sometimes that’s actually the best you can do. It’s a daily holding on to the manna for the day, God’s provision for the day.

I didn’t want my kids to grow up being ungrateful. I still wanted them to have perspective that in the middle of everything that we were going through, there were things that could have been worse. We did have a roof over our heads. Was the house making us sick? Yes. Did we have to worry about being evicted? No. I knew people who were. I knew women who lost their children; they lost custody of their kid. That’s a huge deal for victims of domestic violence and why women don’t leave, because if they don’t have a place to live that’s safe, they can lose custody of their children. I think that was one thing like that did help me keep perspective. I could still see God’s provision. I’ve been in a developing country. I’ve spent time in Haiti. What we were living in, as difficult as it was, I have seen worse. I’ve seen the slums of Haiti.

But it did create a real tension. Particularly in a nation that tends toward either prosperity gospel or a rejection of prosperity gospel that doesn’t find a middle ground of, wanting to support often. In a rejection against prosperity gospel, there can be a failure to support dignity and safety and good living conditions for people. There’s a lot of misperceptions. There’s the assumption that if you’re in that situation, it’s because of something you did. We felt that. There was the wrestling with that too, when in reality I was working six jobs for a number of those years, and trying to stay present with my kids, connected. It was a really grueling time. So when the Lord started saying, “I want you to put your heart out here again.” I was like, “Yeah, I don’t know about that. I can trust You in suffering. I can, I’ve done it before, I can, but don’t ask me to hope for more. “

Karlene Cannon: That’s an interesting concept; that it’s in some ways easier to trust God in suffering than it is to trust Him in hope. Because you’ve got more to lose, maybe? I don’t know, but I think that’s common. It’s hard to hope.

Rosanne Moore: Uncertainty is worse. That I can remember. I can’t remember who I said it to, whether it was a counselor or some spiritual leader that I said it to at one point, but I said, “Despair is easier than uncertainty.” And she was like, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah, because you don’t have anything at risk at that point.’ So having the Lord say to me, “Go ahead and put out there, put what your desire is.” As I did, it was almost explosive. It was such a visceral, this is what I want. This is what I really want. And I sat with that before Him for a few weeks. 

Then I felt like He said, “All right, you need to have other people praying with you. This is going to be something that I want to do in community.” So I shared it with a few friends and they were like, “Yes, we want you out of that situation. We will pray with you.” They also pushed me to check on some things and to look at what kind of help and options might be there. Basically – I’ve told you this – when I did, I found that I can either afford the kids or I can afford a house. So I chose the kids. But in the middle of that, I was saying, “Lord, all right, I’ve done what You asked me to do. It’s not possible. We’ve seen.” And He said, “No, I wanted you to know that. When I do this for you, it will be because I have done this for you. You can’t make this happen. This is going to be me and this is going to be me showing myself to your children as well as to you.” 

That was almost scarier. It’s one thing for me to trust Him in uncertainty, but to ask them to hope and not be able to control what they would do with disappointment was even scarier. When I approached them, we had a family conversation and I put this out there. I want us to begin praying about this. They were all like, “Okay. Yeah, that’s not going to happen. We know that’s not going to happen.” It was at that point we had been through three times of having our hopes raised and it just never went anywhere. So they were resistant to that. But as we began praying – mostly, I began praying in their presence – eventually there was more of an openness to that. I said, I believe this is going to happen.  So we began packing. At that point, we began packing things, getting rid of stuff. I said, “If we’re going to move, it’s a big deal. So we’re going to get rid of things we don’t need, and we are going to start packing anything that we want to keep, but necessarily don’t need hands on day to day.” 

So we did start clearing out the attic and clearing out our closets and that process took place for… Let’s see. The Summit was March of 2022, so it ended up being a year and a half of going through that. It was a year. Really it was a year before we actually really started seeing visible movement. We started that quiet process of clearing out. Then My dad had a TIA. My dad had been very resistant… As my parents were getting older, my brothers and I had been very concerned about them staying in the property that they were in. I lived in the house that I grew up in. They lived in the house that my dad grew up in which was right around the corner. So he had a lot of emotional ties to that house and there’s also a familiarity where you don’t see things anymore. You have the impression of what was not what is. He wasn’t able to keep up with the maintenance. The house that he was living in was not in the same shape as the house he had grown up in. My brothers and I had been concerned and my mother was very stressed over how hard it is to keep up with two 100 year old houses. When we initially approached him, these were two separate things. His downsizing was a totally separate thing from the other when the conversation started. He was not open at all to moving, to even considering. 

Then last January, he had a very minor TIA, no residual anything, but that sparked another conversation with my two brothers and mom and dad. This time we gave him all of the same arguments we had given him a year before, or a year and a half before. My kids went into it going, “Granddaddy’s never going to do this. He’s not going to do this.” And instead, the Lord just did something and Dad was like, “Okay, then we need to move.” We were all like, wow, really? So much so that my brothers were even like, “Are you agreeing that this is a good idea to think about, or are you actually agreeing to do something about?” Because anybody who knows my dad, Daddy does not ever, ever make decisions quickly. Not ever. I’ve seen people who have made life decisions faster than it takes for him to choose something on a menu at a restaurant. This is just not how he does things. So when we put out the plan that my brothers and I had talked about, what if we sold both houses and we bought a place that would be large enough for me and my kids and for you; with the expectation that I wil then be able to take care of you as you age.

Both of my brothers are local, but one has five children and then two foster children that are young that they’re now rearing. And then my other brother has seven young children. My kids are teenagers and college age. So it makes sense from that standpoint.

When he agreed to this, all of a sudden it was like, “Oh my goodness, this is actually happening. We’re going to be able to move.” And because of the way that we ended up, the finances needed to work for us to come together. They’re retired, so they don’t have income. I did have income, but they had assets. How we did everything, I’m going to end up ultimately… By purchasing the house like we are, we’re purchasing it. But then I’m purchasing their part from them, so I was going to end up actually owning a home. And that was huge for a single mom who’s poured everything into taking care of my kids for the last 14 years, that was a huge deal for the Lord to work that out. But it still didn’t come easily, even reaching this point. It didn’t come easily.

Karlene Cannon: I remember when you shared with us about that conversation with your brothers and your mom and your dad and thinking, “Wow, God has provided a solution.” That’s so amazing. And thinking that, “We’re almost there!” And we were just getting started.

Rosanne Moore: It looked like we were almost there. It looked like that within weeks. I had been watching the market for over a year, so in a matter of weeks, we found a house that literally was everything that had been on our checklist; everything, price, rate, everything. And our bid was accepted. Everything seemed to be coming together. And then we got the home inspection report back. And there were very expensive problems that were there. There was a long period of trying to negotiate that, trying to figure out, “All right, do we hold on? Is that what the Lord is saying to do? Do we just wait?” We’re kind of in the middle of all of it going, “Lord, what are You doing?”  I think what happened in the process was, it went from, “What are You doing in this situation?” to, “Okay, what are You wanting to do in us? What things are You surfacing in us?” 

One of the things that the waiting really did for me was made me think in a whole new way about refugees and displaced people. I was really feeling the weight of 14 years of displacement and I wasn’t in a different culture. I wasn’t in unsafe, crime ridden circumstances. It wasn’t violent circumstances. And if I was being this burdened and this torn and just the stress of living in limbo for so long, it just really gave me a heart for people who are in far worse conditions and living in that way. Of being able to see their struggle from a whole new place and to pray accordingly. But I think another thing that it did was it also made me really aware of God; the ache that must be present. God’s able to absorb everything, but for Him to be waiting for the fullness of creation to be. There’s a sense in which it’s done, but He’s also present with us in the waiting. That awareness of his longing to make a home for His children and for the redemption of all things, it became a place of invitation. Like the Lord was saying to me, “As hard as this is right now, I’m giving you a window into something that’s in my heart. I’m letting you see into my heart, my longing for this, for you, for all of your people. And when I give you your home, this longing for the fullness still remains in me.” That was another thing that was really going on in my heart during that time.

Karlene Cannon: That strikes me, as you talk about that, that God gave you this unusual way to share in His suffering. That’s what I hear you saying. I think as parents we get a glimpse of that, because nothing hurts more than watching your kids hurt. Here is God coming alongside of you and sharing in the pain of waiting for, as you said, the fullness of His creation to be realized. He’s been doing that since the fall, He’s been living in that frustration and when He shares His heart with us like that…I think that’s this relational prayer that Larry is talking about. That’s what’s possible. When we share our heart with Him, He then shares His heart back to us and it’s such an honor and a privilege to join in those realities. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard that part of your wrestling and that’s just really beautiful that God would, even in the midst of that “No,” that painful “No,” or, “Wait, it’s not time yet,” that He would come and be with you in that kind of way.

Rosanne Moore: Ultimately that house did fall through and so then there was all of the question of, “All right, how do we know how we’re being led?” There was all of that that followed. So that was really difficult. That almost led into a real… it was just a really dark, wearing season. Yet we continued to go ahead and pack. The kids were really wrestling with, “We actually opened our hearts to this. And once again, it’s been devastated. We don’t even want to look at anything else as a possibility.” And we explored a variety of possibilities. We started wondering, are we supposed to build instead? All of these things. 

As we were going through that, continuing to look at houses, there were two that came on the market all of a sudden at the same time. I was really drawn to one and the kids were really drawn to the other one. Even that experience was part of God’s working in our heart to uncover and draw us near because as we sat down, I realized we were talking at each other. We weren’t talking to each other. And we had to sit down and say, “Okay, why?” My daughter was actually the one who asked me, “Why are you having such a visceral desire for one and rejection of the other?” I realized that one made me feel safe, and the other had things about it that were very trauma triggering to me. And the same thing was happening with my children, but in reverse; there were elements about one house that were triggering to them and the other one felt for me the one that they liked felt.

It was going to need a lot of work like the one that we were currently living in, whereas to them, it was open. The other one had rooms that were distinct from one another, which is like the house that we had been living in, it was older from that standpoint. So they really wanted a spacious kitchen. That was very important to them. They wanted a kitchen that was open to the living space because we all like to cook. We like to be together. The house that we had been living in, as soon as you got more than two people in there, you were stepping on each other. I think for them, an open kitchen represented access to me. 

I think as we look at relational prayer, there were things in this journey that kept bringing me back to, what does it mean to be embodied in my faith to not be spiritualizing or band-aiding things, but to actually be present in a physical body and to be bringing that totality of who I am as a human being to God in the way that I engage with others and engage my situation? We actually had ended up having some really good conversations that came out of that. It looked like the door was opening for one of those houses, and then again, failed an inspection report. It was just like, “Is this ever going to happen? What is this whole thing about, Lord? What is this thing going to do?” So we pulled back. I went through a really dark period at that point where it was just like “This feels like You’re playing with us at this point. Honestly, it feels like you’re playing with us, or worse yet, maybe all of this is simply a creation of my own desire. This isn’t You at all. This is me. Perfect. How do I even know You’re in this? How do I even know that You are leading this?” Every cult in the world thinks that they have a corner on God and are being led by Him. That was the kind of mind battle that I was going through at that time.

My spiritual formation group was so lovely. We met together and they just let me be an absolute angry, frightened, raging and despairing mess in their presence. They just held me there and I met with them. I was in this bad place and I felt I don’t even know whether this is God. How do we even know anything about how God leads or what He’s doing? It feels like we’re just pretending into the void or whatever. While I was in that meeting with them, I got a text from our realtor. We had an appointment for that afternoon to go see a house. She texted and said, “I actually think there’s another one that we need to go see instead. It just came on the market. I only saw it last night. It’s already got so many bids that they’re closing bids at five o’clock today. I think we need to go ahead and see it.” And I thought, okay, whatever, I was not primed for this at all. I’m feeling like a spiritual mess right now, and feeling very jaded.

We pulled up to this gorgeous brick home and I’m thinking, “Okay. There’s no way this is going to really work. Is this in the budget? Is this it?” It was the same as the houses we had been looking at. So then my question was, “What’s wrong with it? This is a lot nicer than everything else that’s been in the budget. We’ve already gone through two failed inspection reports. So what’s wrong with it?” We went through this house. I was aware it was gorgeous, but I had this weird sense that I had been there before. As I’m walking around the house at one point the realtor said, “Okay, let’s go upstairs now.” I said, “Okay, the stairs are over there.” Like, how did I know that? 

We went upstairs and as we came back down, I suddenly had a flashback of 2009, the year that we moved to Rock Hill. We were attending a church on Saturday nights. A high school classmate of mine that I had not seen in 15 years and 40 pounds for both of us, so it was amazing that she recognized me. They normally went on Sunday mornings, but this time they were there on a Saturday night. She recognized me. We reconnected. They had us over for dinner, and it had been at this house. Her husband was a builder and had built this house. I realized that the flashback that I had was of the evening that we had first had dinner with them. They had been telling us about a particular devastating situation in their life where they followed what the Lord told them to do. He led them to do something and it seemed to lead right off a cliff. Their lives imploded in many ways. The story that I had that flashback over was that she had been telling me in the kitchen how in the middle of this situation, she had been crying out to the Lord, “I need You to make clear that this is You, that we’re hearing from You. How do I know that in the middle of the situation?” She was going through a drive through and the thing that Lord had been saying for months to her was, “Just keep moving forward. Just keep moving forward.” And as she’s crying out to Him as she goes through this drive through, she’s just sobbing. The guy who hands her food had tattooed on his arm, “just keep moving forward.”

So as I’m coming down these stairs and I have this flashback, I was like, “Oh my goodness, I have to get in touch with Christine because this really feels significant.” I Facebook messaged her that night. We put in a bid on the house. The other places we had been looking at would have required us to either build an apartment for Mom and Dad in the garage or in the basement. This was done. This was all done and ready. I got reached out to my former classmate that night, and I told her that we had looked at the house and said, “I had this flashback.” She was currently going through something and she said, “The Lord knew I needed that reminder today. So thank you.” 

This is the interweaving. You and your tickets, and then all of this, and then the flashback for me. Having been through 2 situations that looked like they lined up and they didn’t, we’re moving forward, but I’m trying not to be too invested. The day that we got the final inspection report back on this house, and it was clear, I suddenly realized it was the 10 year anniversary of the divorce decree, where I had walked away from the hope of all home ownership. That day I had been listening all along to an album called Faithful that was done just before the pandemic. A collective of female artists had gotten together and had done all this songwriting. There had been song lyrics in there during this journey. “The detour is the road” or “You’ve been good to me. I can dare to hope I will choose to believe when the way is dark and cold.” Things that had sustained me throughout that time when I realized that this is the 10 year anniversary.

I went back to that album and a new song had dropped. I don’t know if I’ve even told you this part. It’s based on Psalm 68:5-6 about God being a defender to the fatherless – So this is for you as well, Karlene, the defender of the fatherless – and the husband of widows. One of the things that they talked about was the abandoned. Not just widows, but the abandoned. And the song is A Place For You and we’re going to link it in the show notes. But I lose it. I just lose it. Every time I hear this song it is so tender still because it talks in there about having a safe place for your children, for you, the protection. All of the things that underneath that prayer, that surface prayer for a house that worked, those were the underlying questions that God wanted to answer for me. We’re not in heaven yet. We talked about that. He hasn’t returned. All things are not made new. The night that we moved into this house, we had a flood that had to be dealt with. There’s been a lot of points of chaos in the just few weeks we’ve been here. Yet in the middle of it, I wake up every morning, just grateful for His provision and trusting that this place. 

We have named all of our houses in every place we’ve lived. We’ve named this one Arukah Oasis. Arukah is the Hebrew word that means to rebuild what is destroyed and demolished; to heal what has been broken and torn down. This is a place that we’re praying will not only be that for us, but that we can actually make that for others as well.

Karlene Cannon: As someone who’s privileged to be part of the team of people who were praying and holding on to hope when it was so dark, it was a really long process from the moment you asked us to pray until now. I saw the pictures of all the different options and they all seemed good at the time. Yet this place that God has prepared for you is so much better than any of the other options. It’s absolutely beautiful. One of the things that I am so grateful for is that you get to live in a place that is beautiful. It’s just beautiful. In a different way, this gift feels extravagant because it is so much better. It’s worlds apart from the house that you were in, but it’s also head and shoulders better than anything you had looked at until this just dropped in your lap so suddenly. It just echoes all over the place of the way God.

I remember, maybe a week ago being on the phone with you, and your kids were laughing and having fun in the kitchen, being lighthearted. We were talking about work issues and all of a sudden you just stopped and said, “Just listen to that. Just listen to their laughter because they just have a carefree experience of life that is new because of this place.” There’s just so many ways that this – and of course with your parents – has been such a gift and it’s just a beginning I think.

Rosanne Moore: For sure. And throughout it, because we are blending households and all of that, there have just been really sweet things that the Lord has done, like giving me conversations with somebody else who is doing that. The way that we’ve had to work through things in our relationship. Anytime you do this, you run into all the family dynamics. Even seeing the Lord show up in the middle of that and really moving us toward health, toward greater love in the way that’s happening in ways that – it hasn’t always looked nice or neat. It’s been messy – but towards something that’s actually healthy instead of just looking nice on the surface and it really isn’t underneath. It’s been very multifaceted. I think the big thing was walking away from that and the conversation with Christine. I was like, all this stuff in my head that was clamoring, “Is this true? How can I try?” That got blown out of the water because only God could have worked all of the pieces and all of the people and all of the facets of this together.

Karlene Cannon: That random guy who got a tattoo, whatever day that was, years and years ago.

Rosanne Moore: Exactly! The thought that at the point where my life was falling apart and I didn’t know it yet. I didn’t even know how bad it was going to get. He was already preparing a place for us. 

I hope for our listeners. I hope if you are still waiting, there’s still something you’re waiting for or if there is a loss – because I’ve lost a child. There are losses where there’s not going to be a happy ending coming, there has to be something else in which He meets you. I’ve been there too. I know what that is. – My prayer for you today is that you will be able to do what Larry talks about and to present whatever is truly going on, whether it’s envy or resentment or doubt or fear or longing or feeling abandoned, whatever’s actually going on that’s behind the thing that you’re asking for the questions that are there, you’ll be able to present all of that. You’ll be able to actually attend to how you’re seeing God and how you’re seeing yourself in relationship with Him and not cover that with any kind of spiritual band-aids at all, but to just bring that as it is and to let Him purge out the lies and the deception and and to reveal Himself to you in a fresh new way. Be able to bring all of that to Him and encounter Him in the goodness that He is. Not just your sustainer in suffering, but also as the giver of good gifts. 

Karlene Cannon: To reiterate again, the starting place is to just be where you are, to come as you are. That’s really what God wants, all of you. It feels really risky, whether it’s something as trivial as a basketball game, or something as vital as a safe place to live. The risk is worth it, because God is weaving this incredible tapestry and He’s graciously and kindly giving us these opportunities to see what He’s doing. Until we’re able to just come and trust ourselves to Him, we miss so much in our spiritual platitudes and good doctrine and cognitive rationalization of whatever’s going on. He really wants to offer something that’s fully human and addresses all of our experience. 

I think the other thing that strikes me is to do that in community. There was something about me being willing to send the email, something about you pulling us all together. Rosanne has this group message, I think there’s 13 people on it, or 14, that have been updated. We’ve been on this journey. She graciously invited us to be with her on this journey. You talked about meeting with your spiritual formation group and them holding you in what, as you described, seemed you felt was this ugly place, this looking bad in the face of love. Yet that was so powerful. Larry talks about that in all his books and it feels counterintuitive, but it really is the way God wants us to be. He meets us in so many ways when we’re finally willing to do that. 

We hope that this has been a good, good story for you guys to share with us. We really wanted to make these stories available to you. For you to know that, as part of our Larger Story family, you were part of all of this that was going on, starting at the Summit and it continues. 

Rosanne, you guys moved in about a month ago. Is that right? 

Rosanne Moore: It was September 28th, so it’s been almost 3 weeks.

Karlene Cannon: So pretty close. This is real time, real life stuff that is happening. That’s what we’re about here at Larger Story, wanting to be part of those moments and all the moments in between. Thank you for listening. Thank you for joining us. We look forward to next week and the conversations that we’ll have next week.

Rosanne Moore: Thanks so much.

Knowing that God says He loves us is one thing, but personally encountering His delight in us often involves confronting the ways we resist His grace. Karlene Cannon shares her PAPA Prayer story of God’s subversive generosity in revealing His heart for her. 

Karlene Cannon’s Bio: 
  
In 2012, Karlene Cannon sat across a dinner table from Rachael and Larry Crabb and was captivated as Larry talked about his Teleios project- his dream for how his lifework and legacy of relational spiritual formation would be passed on to a new generation on a broader scale than had been possible in his lifetime. That evening eventually led to Karlene joining the staff of Larger Story as the Director of Content and Product Development, where she uses her experience in education, content development, and software business consulting to direct Larger Story’s strategy and create new products that bring to fruition the Teleios vision Larry articulated over a decade ago.  

Karlene has written curriculum, developed retreats, and hosted a large Christian community group in her home in the ensuing years, but nothing has prepared her for the current task of reaching a new generation more than raising 4 children (ages 25, 21, 18, 14) in a family culture where relational formation is the norm, relational holiness is the goal, and the Holy Spirit gets all the credit. As she now launches them into a world rife with divisions on all sides, where the truth is often regarded as optional, Karlene’s vision is to reach this connected-but-lonely generation with the transforming certainty of a relational God and His Larger Story. Her passion has found an outlet in digital course development, content creation, and the kind of spiritual direction that occurs over a cup of coffee, via text, and through long conversations in the car.    

Karlene loves sports (actually, just Duke basketball and whatever her sons are playing), all things vintage and historic, great books, fragrant coffee and crackling fires. She feels God’s pleasure when her home is full of courageous people sharing their hearts and lives for the glory of God and their own growth and healing.  

Rosanne Moore’s Bio: 

If Jesus is Who He says He is, why doesn’t being a Christian seem to work better? More to the point, why didn’t it seem to make people better? Those were some of the questions Rosanne Moore was asking about her own life when she first encountered Dr. Larry Crabb’s book Inside Out as a teen and in its pages discovered an invitation to journey into a radically different understanding of what it meant to be a follower of Jesus, one that was focused on relationship with God rather than rule lists or behavior modification.   

Drawing on her background as a writer, editor, reading instruction specialist, language arts tutor, homeschool mom, speaker, and social media marketer, Rosanne now serves as Larger Story’s Communications Director. She has run a successful small business and worked with several missions and church organizations, but her greatest delight is in listening to the unfolding story of God’s work in the lives of others and sharing her own journey of seeking God in every part of life, even (or, perhaps, especially) in our darkest nights.  

  
Nowhere is Rosanne more passionate about seeing God’s redemption cultivated than in the lives of victims/survivors of abuse of all kinds. Her Lifeline course for women escaping domestic abuse was birthed from her personal experience, as well as out of more than two decades of advocacy work serving women and children impacted by intimate terrorism, coercive control, spiritual abuse, and sexual violence.  

A single mom since 2011, Rosanne seeks to create opportunities for rich conversations with her 4 teen & college-aged kids who continually amaze, amuse, and humble her with their awesome selves and their crazy menagerie. She enjoys honest friends who are both hilarious and wise, a lapful of snuggly kitties, and a good book on a rainy day. Lily’s chocolates, Jane Austen movies, and crisp autumn days are a few of her favorite things, and music is her heart’s prayer language. 

Show Note Links:   

The PAPA Prayer 

“A Thousand Things” 

Recordings from The Summit 

Transcript

Rosanne Moore: Hello, Larger Story audience. We’re so happy to have you back with us today. I’m Rosanne Moore, your host at the Relational Spirituality podcast. I have with me my co-host today, Karlene Cannon. We are looking at The PAPA Prayer during this quarter and we have some stories to share about how God has met us in that, in a really personal way.

Karlene, I want to start with you. This actually goes back to 2022, right?

Karlene Cannon: Early 2022. Yeah.

Rosanne Moore: When we did the Summit as a memorial just celebrating Larry’s life and the way that his ministry touched so many lives. We had been working for months to get ready for the Summit.

Karlene Cannon: Over a year really, it had been a big undertaking that we had been heavily invested in as a team and personally. It was a big deal. 

Rosanne Moore: And in the midst of that, something happened with you that I want you to share about. So go ahead. I’m going to let you start sharing your story.

Karlene Cannon: I think I need to give a little bit of background of my broader story just to understand the significance of this particular event. Part of my story is all wrapped up in “father.” I had a series of men in my life who had the title of father; I had a biological father who gave me up when I was born – I was adopted –  Then I had an adopted father who obviously took me in as a baby and stepped into that role, but then, over the course of my life, he gradually disappeared such that by the time I got married, he was largely not part of my life. He didn’t help with college. He didn’t come to my wedding. He just gradually faded out of my life. And then I had a father-in-law who stepped in and made a lot of promises like, “You finally have a father” and that did not go well either. And God graciously gave me people like Larry Crabb. I have another Larry who’s very important in my life, who has shown me and fathered me spiritually over the years, but that place of father was always nebulous and empty, not one of the positive parts of my life. The idea that a father would give good gifts to his children was always something I cognitively believed, but didn’t actually experience. 

Another part of this story that’s going to be really important was, when I was 18 years old and applying to colleges – I grew up in Texas. I wanted to go somewhere different. So I had one application that I could afford to send and I chose Duke University. I’m really not even sure why, except the cover was beautiful on the little brochure they sent out. And that’s where I ended up. God provided miraculously. Tuition was more yearly than my mother made. Lots of things had to come together for me to be even able to go. And that was one of my first experiences of God as a father providing for me. My father actually signed a paper that said he wouldn’t. And so God stepped in and all sorts of ways to make sure that happened. 

Those four years were fantastic. A lot of that revolved around basketball. If anyone knows much about college sports, and Duke University – it’s all basketball, all the time. When we were there, our four years there, we went to the final four, all four years, and we won two national championships. So basketball was just a big part of our life, and we continued that with our kids. We have lots of family stories about how important basketball was, and my little six year old praying for a win, and it had just all sorts of different things. It’s where I met my husband, we got engaged at a basketball game, we got married at the cathedral on campus. My daughter went there and met her husband. So our whole lives have been part of the journey of Duke basketball and Coach K. 

So when we get to the Summit, it turns out that the weekend we had planned for the Summit was going to be the weekend of coach K’s last game at Cameron indoor stadium ever. It had been hyped and it was a big deal for lots of reasons. When I realized that I wasn’t even going to be able to be home and to watch the whole day of festivities, I was really sad. It was like a loss. I experienced it as a loss because this had been such an important part of my life. It’s such a place of joy for me. I just was struggling with that reality.

We had some friends who had also graduated from Duke about, I don’t know, 15 years ahead of us. And he had season tickets.Throughout the years he had given us those when he wasn’t using them. So a lot of our story centered around getting tickets from our friend Jack and being able to go and see games.

We had been with them in early February at a game and they were telling us that they had an option on some extra tickets for the Carolina game, but nobody ever gives up their tickets for this game. This game is like the biggest, especially when it’s coach K’s last game, it’s like the biggest game of the year and the biggest ticket, even president Biden couldn’t get a ticket. They were selling for like tens of thousands of dollars. So when they said we might get tickets, I was like, Sure. And then they said, we’ll let you know. I was like, there’s lots of people in line ahead of us. They had three sons and two of their sons were Duke grads, so it was a real long shot in every way, but there was something in my heart that was like, Ooh, I would like that ticket. I would love to be in that stadium for Coach K’s last game. It was completely out of the realm of possibility, but the seed was planted in my heart. 

Every time there was something mentioned about –  of course, this is the biggest news, because coach K’s retiring after 40 years, this story career, so it’s on every TV commercial and so lots of opportunities for me to communicate my desire back to God and just say, I’m going to really miss not watching the game. It’d be great to be there. Just this ongoing conversation about this thing that was important to me, that seemed… Almost shallow; it seemed almost ridiculous because I was also completely focused on this Summit that we were doing and that was consuming most of my time and energy and I had deep desires for that to be honoring to Larry and significant almost this competitive set of desires. I just kept handing them back to God, and just saying, my heart and I really want to be ensured and do this thing for you and for Larry and for Larger Story. And I really want to be in Cameron Indoor Stadium, or at least be able to watch it on TV and I’m just going to leave that in your hands. It was just this relational conversation that I kept having with God over about four weeks. 

We get to the Summit, it’s going really well. I guess I should give a little more background…

Rosanne Moore:  I was going to say, one thing that strikes me and what you’ve shared so far is the fact that you didn’t just go, “this is not the spiritual desire,” right? Like, “I just need to focus on the spiritual desire and maybe even repent of the selfish desire.” Instead, you put it before the Lord and you were like, “I’m going to let you sort it out.” I love that. I love that you didn’t try to tell Him what He should do. You just came and presented yourself honestly to Him.

Karlene Cannon: I think that was a real struggle because it did feel very self-absorbed and worldly, especially because you’ve got this Summit going on over here that you know is of great spiritual significance and you’ve got a basketball game, the scales are pretty obviously tipping one way, and yet the desire was so strong that I just couldn’t parse it myself, and I just said, “I’m just going to let You handle it.” Which is unusual for me, honestly. “I’m just going to own this, and let You know how I feel every time I feel it and see what happens,” and I think there was something in me that recognized that God is going to do what He was going to do at the Summit with or without me. Of course, He’s going to do what He’s going to do in Cameron Indoor Stadium with or without me, but I could trust Him that I could be where He wanted me to be. 

My assumption was that He wanted me to be focused over here and not even watching Coach K on ESPN, that was my assumption in that, but there was this sort of belief that I’m not that important either place. What is important is what’s happening with me and God, and that can happen in either place. I think part of what makes this story more than just a shallow wish to go to a basketball game was this journey I had been on with God for about 12 years where He was regularly and consistently and even miraculously, trying to communicate to me that He was delighted in me.

This was a really difficult message for me to internalize and own for a host of reasons that I won’t get too bogged down in. But there had just been a series of events over the course of 12 years that God kept telling me, “you are my delight. I delight in you. All of these other things you get so hung up on don’t matter because I have chosen to delight in you because I see you through the righteousness of Jesus, and I can delight in that and who I created you to be.” 

I just struggled to take that from my head down into who I am in my relationship with God. So this was a journey. When we got to the Summit, the first night Kent Denlinger was thinking, and he brought up this whole topic of delight. Honestly, what happened to me was this sort of, “Oh great. Here we go again. What else are you going to do, God, on this one? Because I know I’m being stubborn and I need to repent and all of these things.” I experienced that whole journey of frustration. Listening to Kent as he talked and being glad of the reminder once again that God delighted in me, that was good. 

That was the end of that whole part, and we woke up the next morning, and Rich got a phone call, and I’m listening to him on the other end, and it’s starting to dawn on me what’s really happening on this phone call. Our friend Jack had gotten two tickets to the Carolina game. That in and of itself was shocking, but then all three of his sons were involved in things that they felt they could not leave, so he was offering us the tickets and we were in North Carolina, so we were only two hours away. Rich says, “We just got these tickets. What do you want to do?” Because here I am, technically at something I really should have been prioritizing over this game. But something in my heart said, “You’ve been asking me how I was going to handle this. I want you to know that I am a Father who gives good gifts to His children. I delight in you.”

 I knew that it would be wrong to refuse those tickets because this was bigger than a basketball game or what was happening at the Summit. This was about what God was doing with me. He had gone to such extravagant lengths. President Biden couldn’t get tickets the morning of the game. So we talked and I went back and forth, but I knew in my heart that I was not going to turn down those tickets and it might cause trouble. I remember coming to you and being like, I’m supposed to do this and this, is it okay if I just dump it on you? Because I’m headed North. Fortunately, our colleague Kris was actually the one who was responsible for most of the Summit, and I was really more of a peripheral player and it wasn’t a huge upheaval for me to leave. But it still felt like I was shirking my responsibilities and abandoning you guys.

But surprisingly, we drove out of the Cove, and I was all in on this experience that God had just handed me. It was a delightful day. In some ways, it was a little bit of heaven. We were there celebrating. It was just fun. There was so much reminiscing, and it was celebrating someone who had done something really significant.

Then we get to the game. Games in Cameron Indoor Stadium are fantastic in any scenario, but this one was particularly full of energy. It did not go well, however, We lost that game, and we lost that game badly. My heart was broken for these young men because most of them are about 18 years old, and they have got the entire world watching them, and the pressure of winning this last game, and there was just a lot going on. I remember a conversation in my head with God. This has been such a great day and so unexpected. I felt like I’d really lived it with God. Like He was with me throughout the day. This was about five minutes toward the end. I’m like, we could still pull this out. It’d be really great if we won, that would just cap off a virtually perfect day. There was just this little whisper in my heart of, “You’re not in heaven yet. Don’t be deceived by how good this is. This is not heaven.” I just thought, “Losing this game doesn’t in any way change the significance of the day for me.” It doesn’t take away from the time that I had with God and that He orchestrated for me. I wish it had turned out differently, and I’m not in any way saying that I had any responsibility for the outcome of the game, I absolutely did not, but it was just God’s kindness to make it clear to me that whatever I’m going through in life, there’s always a reconciliation of really good and really not good. And the really not good doesn’t change the really good. The really good can change the really not good. But the brokenness that we live in doesn’t change the reality of God’s great extravagant love for us. 

I just got to the end of that day, and there was this certainty that I might still struggle to feel like I’m a delight, but I can always look back on that day and know that God wanted me to unmistakably never question that He is delighted in me and He would go to great lengths to communicate that to me.

There were lots of things that came off of that, tendrils and different things that came off of that story. But one of them, I think, is almost like my story birthed, in some ways, or at least ignited or was a catalyst for an even bigger story that we’re going to talk about in our next episode.

There was, for me at least, something in that connection to somebody else’s story that also reinforced for me what God is about. That day felt like it was me and God. The community, the body of Christ, there were just lots of other ways that God was working.So when I gave up the sense that I was important over here and needed to stay at the Summit, it was almost like it released the Spirit. I’m not communicating this well. It was almost like, in not having to stay here because I thought I was important here, it’s like God did all of these other things over here, that might not have happened if I hadn’t just followed His leading in ways that almost felt sinful to me, if that makes sense.

Rosanne Moore: Yeah. I was thinking as you were talking, humility is accepting who we are with God, right? It’s not making ourselves too small or too big. And so by, by letting go of the role at the Summit and receiving what He was offering you, you accepted you. It’s like you embodied who you were in His presence in your relationship with Him. And that actually did release what the Spirit was going to do next, but also do in you. And that was important. 

I think when you’re talking about this, father issues are a big deal. You had a lot of lived experience that had reinforced that issue of delight. And so for you to open your heart at that moment and say, “I’m not going to earn Your delight by staying at the Summit,  I’m going to receive Your delight by receiving this gift You want to give me.” I think that’s a big and beautiful thing that He was doing. 

Karlene Cannon: That’s a really good way of articulating what I was struggling to articulate. I think you’re absolutely right. If I had stayed at the Summit, there would have been a sense of earning something and pleasing someone else. I was very aware of what other people might think about me abandoning my post and leaving the Summit. I’ll just be honest, that was part of my challenge, what are people going to think about me? Because I also knew that the next day I had to talk to people about, here’s what we’re doing at Larger Story and be passionate and, are they going to wonder how committed I am if I just up and leave for a basketball game? 

It was interesting. I actually had a conversation with Jim Cress, who was there as we were leaving, and I told him that I got tickets and I was just sharing my struggle and he was like, are you kidding me? Go, just go. It was so encouraging because he got it. He got the sort of reason for going. I didn’t even share all those details about what it was doing in me, but just the bigness of this gift, if God’s giving you that gift, go. Actually, maybe it’s that I hadn’t quite absorbed it. When you said that, Rosanne, I do think a lot of my story with God has been trying to earn something. So the miracle of being able to just let that go and receive was a really big part of what made that day so special. 

Rosanne Moore: I’m curious, did you look back on that? How is that staying with you? Does that feel like a one-time “trophy” event? Or is that something that you’re still able to access and live into? 

Karlene Cannon: That’s a really good question. I have tried to navigate my spiritual life largely by trying to get it right. One of the things I struggle with is the desire – to borrow from one of Tim Keller’s phrases – to be my own savior. I actually want to just do it. That just feels safer to me if I can do it. Then, my bases are covered. There’s lots of reasons why I operate that way. But, I think in addition to the sealing on my heart the delight. The idea that I have to do it right and that’s more important than following the Spirit into places that feel strange or weird or like they just couldn’t possibly be true. I think it gave me some courage to step away from the safety of trying to do it right and to just rest into the reality that I hear from the Spirit and I can follow Him, even when it doesn’t necessarily make sense. That is where the delight comes from, that God is not as happy and thrilled by my attempts to get it right as I am, and that’s actually a really good thing that He just likes me and just wants me to want Him and “the pressure’s off,” to quote another of our favorite books.

I think that was the whole part of that experience. This real, tangible, lived experience of choosing against getting it right and just how freeing and beautiful that was and that God could really meet me in a way that my attempts to earn had been keeping Him at a distance previously.

I think your question was, how does that stay with me? I had a real sense that day that this was a landmark moment, and then I needed to somehow hold on to that. I sent an email. We were in the car driving to the game, so I’m typing up this email to capture what I was feeling and what was going on. So many other things happened after that email, but I do hold on to that and look back at it just to remember when I’m struggling with the sense of delight. I think God in His kindness, He kept telling this long story that started to weave other people in that in case I forget, He’s going to keep reminding me in all of these other ways.

I think what that’s done and where this kind of comes back to what Larry’s saying in The PAPA Prayer. This is just very relational. So much of my prayer life in the past has been… I’ve done index cards, I’ve done prayer lists, I’ve had the little sheets where you check off when it was answered, all of it. It’s very systematized. And Larry’s talking in The PAPA Prayer about something that’s very relational and that’s how I experienced this. Both in praying leading up to it, because I’d have to just keep saying, this is what I want and I’m really sad and I just leave it with you, and then experiencing the whole day with God being, I can’t believe I’m here. Thank you. Just this ongoing conversational interaction with God. Even in the aftermath as it continued to unfold it’s been a very rich relational experience that I think is so much bigger than the gift of the day, which was huge.

 Rosanne Moore: When you came and told me, I didn’t think, “She’s abandoning her post,” but I thought, “The Summit has all these really rich conversations, and she wants to walk away from that? That’s a little weird.” 

Karlene Cannon: There was definitely a sense of loss as I was driving away because I did absolutely feel I’m actually going to miss out on what’s happening here. So that’s very true. 

Rosanne Moore: And yet the Lord was actually speaking something really deeper to your heart probably than what would have happened in those conversations. It wasn’t until I got your email and understood the significance of what you were sharing that I realized there was so much more to the story than just, “Hey, we got tickets, isn’t that cool?”

What struck me about your story was that it wasn’t even just God saying, “I am delighted in you, this matters to you.” It was layers of provision, like Duke had been a place of provision. So it was like God was taking you back to layer after layer of provision for you. And then going, “I really want you to know I see your heart. I’m giving you this gift.” This is important for all of those many layers behind it.

Karlene Cannon: That’s right. Even just the whole part of the storyline about fathering. Larry had been a real voice of fatherly love and input, especially in the last 12 years. There were moments in this whole thing where it felt disloyal, because that was all about honoring him and a memorial to his life and his impact. Yet it was also some of the conversations I’d had with him and some of the things that he had said. 

One time I was at SSD and he was actually talking to another young woman on stage, he’s not talking to me. She’s talking about her father and he says, “I think I’d really enjoy being your father.”  And it was like he talked to me. I don’t even remember how it impacted her, but I just started sobbing. Larry had just been a really important part of that storyline in my life. And in some ways it was like God was using him again, in a kind of unexpected way. I think that was part of the reinforcement of what God was doing in being a father who gave, who gives good gifts, that just underscored that experience for me, that it was connected to Larry at the Summit. There were lots of levels that are still becoming more clear as we keep living this thing out. 

I think everybody has those kinds of things in their life. God is really a God that weaves a tapestry. There’s a story arc, but it’s a lot more than one line. There are just all kinds of things that intersect that He’s pulling threads through to make a picture that might not be clear in one moment, but all of a sudden you get a glimpse of all the richness of that tapestry, and only God knows. Can you do that? We’re just not that smart.

Rosanne Moore: Christa Wells has a song: “A thousand things are happening in this one thing,” that’s one of the lines from it. That’s always going on, but we don’t always get the peek behind the curtain that you’ve got with what happened with you.

Karlene Cannon:  That’s very true.

Rosanne Moore:  We’re going to wrap up today, but Karlene made mention of what was the story that came out of that email that she sent. I was so glad that she didn’t just go and have a good time, but that she shared the story of what happened with us, because the Lord then sparked something in me and we’re going to talk about that in our next episode. So come back next week. Thank you for being with us today.

Karlene, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us. I think there are a lot of people in our audience who can relate to wrestling. We were talking about this in book club actually. Often when we bring our prayer requests we don’t want to do the laundry list thing, like what’s really going on is not the thing we’re asking for. It’s the underlying question. Is God a good God who is going to take care of me in a way that my father didn’t, in your case. How does He see me? Does He delight in me? Is His love something I have to earn? All of those questions, whenever we’re looking at things in the Middle East, the wrestling over what it looks like to be cared for by God in the middle of a situation that looks so hard. For the mother or parent, does God love my child as much as I do? Those are the underlying things that happen in our hearts and in our lives.

Thank you for sharing some of your journey and how God unexpectedly… – what I love about your story is how subversive it was. He used a basketball game, for Pete’s sake! It was just so subversive that He says, “I really want you to know this is how I see you.” I love that.

Thank you listeners for being with us, and we’re going to wrap up for today, but please come back next week.

Karlene Cannon: You don’t want to miss the rest of the story for sure. 

Rosanne Moore: There’s more as we talk about The PAPA Prayer. Thanks so much.

Darrell is an author and teacher who reminds Kep of his late father. Join Kep as he bounces several topics off Darrell Johnson as they talk about end times, the church and a few other topics. 

Bio: Darrell Johnson has been preaching Jesus Christ and His Gospel for over 50 years. He has served a number of Presbyterian congregations in California, Union Church of Manila in the Philippines, and the historic First Baptist Church in the heart of Vancouver, Canada. He has taught preaching for Fuller College in Vancouver. He has authored many books and is currently serving as Scholar-in-Residence for the Way Church and Canadian Church Leaders Network, and still serves Regent College part-time as Teaching Fellow. He and his wife Sharon have been married for more than 50 years. Together they have raised four children adopted from four different countries of the world, and now enjoy loving 11 active grandchildren!

Show Note Links:   

The PAPA Prayer 

“Discipleship On The Edge” by Darrell Johnson

Transcript

Kep Crabb: Welcome everyone to Relational Spirituality, a Larger Story podcast where you can belong, you can become, and you can be known in the story that’s going on right now. A story that we know how the story ends. I’m your host today, Kep Crabb. 

When I was a young boy in the early 70s, I got a chance to see a couple of movies. The movies are called A Thief in the Night and A Distant Thunder. Some of you may remember those movies. They weren’t exactly the Hollywood productions that we’re used to today, but the simple premise of the two movies; A Thief in the Night was the rapture when Jesus comes back to get us. The second movie, A Distant Thunder, was what happens after the rapture: the tribulation. Some of you may disagree with the theology of the movies as to when Jesus is coming, but they left a lasting impact on me and they encouraged me really to dive into some of the books in the Bible that really talked about the end times; books like Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the last book of the Bible, Revelation. I was fascinated and honestly frightened a little bit by the end times. 

I’m honored today to be joined by someone who my late father, Larry Crabb, greatly admired and really enjoyed his thought provoking books. He’s a husband of more than 50 years. He and his wife, Sharon, have four adopted children from different countries, and now they have 11 grandchildren. I guess we could probably sit and talk about the grandchildren, because I’m expecting my first grandchild in December, so that could be a full episode for us if we wanted to, but maybe that’s for another time. We could also talk about some of the books that he’s written, like Experiencing the Trinity, Fifty-Seven Words that Change the World, and a book on story, The Story That Makes Sense Of Our Stories. Here at Larger Story, we call that our smaller story, how that fits into His Larger Story. He also has come out with a new book on Ephesians, which I just got a copy of and cannot wait to dive into that. But that’s not what we’re going to be talking about today either. 

Today we’re going to be chatting about his book, Discipleship on the Edge. This book was published in 2004. This book is about the apocalypse of Jesus Christ, the revelation of Jesus Christ to John on the island of Patmos. It’s the last book of the Bible. I am super excited today to have Darrell Johnson with us. Darrell, thank you for joining me today. How are you?

Darrell Johnson: Welcome. I’m very pleased to join you and to get to meet you. I knew your father’s books over the years and I wish that I can connect with him through you and through your ministry, so it’s a joy to be with you today.

Kep Crabb: Thank you so much. I know my brother had a chance to reach out to you a little bit ago just to tell you how much you meant to Dad, and you responded graciously to him. That’s when I started thinking, Hey, maybe if I invite this guy to do a podcast with me, it could work out. It’s exciting. Like I said to you earlier, since Dad’s been gone now, or he passed through here about two and a half years ago, I only have about four or five hours of questions for you today since I don’t have him around anymore. I hope you’re ready to strap in. 

Darrell Johnson: I’ll do the best I can. Lord help me.

Kep Crabb: I appreciate it. It’s interesting because you and he have so many similarities, Darrell. Aside from the number of books that you’ve written, both of you are prolific writers. The way you talk, the way you look, the way you dress – I don’t know if that’s the quintessential professor’s uniform or not – but the biggest similarity and common thing that I think you guys really had and have is your love for the Word and your love for His church. It comes through in your writings. I’ve had a chance to see some of your videos and it’s just clear as crystal. 

Just to tell you a little bit about my background, obviously you knew my dad a little bit, or maybe read some of his books. Three years ago, my wife was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. It was a blow. She was given about a 20 percent chance to live five years. Then shortly after that, Dad passed away and that has changed my life. I am an absolutely different person because of this. My focus now has really been on heaven and the second coming. And so in preparation for what we were going to talk about today, obviously I re-read your book, Discipleship on the Edge, which I would encourage those of you who have not read that to do that. 

I also had a chance to go through Dad’s book just real briefly, which was 66 Love Letters. I don’t know, Darrell, if you had a chance to read this, but he wrote this book years ago. What he’s doing is he’s having a conversation with God in this book about, why did you write Genesis? Why did you write the book of Obadiah? Why did you write the book of Malachi? And then he strings together the whole story. Kierkegaard, as you might know, referred to the scriptures as 66 love letters. Each book of the Bible was a love letter to us. And so Dad titled it 66 Love Letters. I’m just going to read a quick excerpt from the final chapter of his book, which obviously is the 66th Book of the Bible, Revelation. 

The title of this chapter is “Reign with the Lamb now and you will sing when the lion roars.” Dad opens up the chapter with a quote from Francis Schaeffer where Schaeffer says, People often cry out for the work of the Holy Spirit. And yet forget that when the Holy Spirit works, there’s always a tremendous cost to the people of God, weariness, tears, battles.

Then Dad says to the Father, these words encourage me, Father, after talking through the first 65 of your love letters. I still feel tired at times, more than ever in both soul and body, and I find that deep tears come more easily than deep laughter, especially when something touches me in a tender spot and the battle rages in me and around me. It doesn’t seem to be letting up. If anything, it’s getting more intense. Is this really the work of your Spirit? Is this part of maturing? Is this one stretch of the narrow road to life? Then the Father responds to Dad by saying, I love this. When my Son’s kingdom breaks into yours, expect a collision. When His ways of relating confronts the world’s ways of relating, including yours, all heaven and hell break loose. The battle is on; a battle to the death and to life. The side that appears to be losing is winning and will soon win visibly and decisively. My Son will see to that and the side that seems to now have the edge, the side whose godless agenda is growing in worldwide support loses forever. 

I just love that. So encouraging to me. It reminds me of the story that you opened up your book with: a group of seminary students were using a room in a local high school where the custodian was allowing them to do that. And they gave him a Bible as a kind of a thank you for letting them do that. And one night after a study session, they came out and they saw him reading the Bible. One of the students walks up to the custodian and says, I see you’re reading the Bible. What are you reading? He said I’m reading the last book of the Bible, the book of Revelation. He said, Oh, that’s a challenging book. There’s been a lot of people who have studied that in depth and a lot of differing opinions. And he said, Oh, I think I get it. The seminary student stepped back and said, what are you talking about? And he says, Oh yeah, Jesus wins. 

I love the fact that we know the end of the story. That to me is just so encouraging as we try to battle and make our way through this world.

But I have a question for you as we get started here.

Darrell Johnson: First of all, I need to get a copy of those 66 love letters.

Kep Crabb: You will get one. One will be in the mail to you tomorrow, sir. Guaranteed. 

Darrell Johnson: Thank you. Just the way you read that to me reminds me of one of the things I always admired about your dad and it’s just almost brutal honesty. There’s no game playing on Spirituality. This is real life. This is a real God. I’m a real person. We’re facing real stuff. And he just would name it. I want to read all 66 love letters then see how he worked through them. I want to check out that book right away.

Kep Crabb: I remember I had a chance to take all of my dad’s chicken scratch notes that were his writing. He always wrote every book he ever wrote with a pen and a paper. I did all of the transcriptions from the book SoulTalk onward. 

This book was birthed out of him one night where he just sat down and said, why did you write the book of Genesis? And he would just write a sentence. He did that all the way through the book. Then he said, man, this could be a fun book. Talked to Harper Collins about it, they said, great. And it took him four and a half years to write. I said, if you’re going to be speaking for God, the Father, you better have your ducks in a row Dad. So he talked to theologians all over the world and read every commentary on every book of the Bible you could think of. So you can imagine the challenging task that was, but it really is, I believe, his Magnum Opus. I think that you will enjoy it. It’s him having a conversation with God about every book of the Bible. And the last piece of the book is where he strings through the entire message and how it just leads to Jesus all the way through. It’s amazing. I think it’s one of his best.

I read your bio a little bit. You’ve pastored all over the world. I’ve traveled a little bit but most of my barometer for the church is coming from the West, which I know is incredibly limited. But where do you see the church going these days?

Darrell Johnson: My goodness.

Kep Crabb: I’m not trying to get heavy on you right off the bat here, but…

Darrell Johnson: Yeah, you went right to it, though.

Kep Crabb: I did. I did.

Darrell Johnson:  Of course, now when we say the church, and we think worldwide, it’s going to be different in different places. Right off, we know that the center of gravity for the church right now worldwide is Africa where it’s just going so fast and with the emergence of African theologians. Ironically, the first great theologians, Augustine and company, were Africans. I don’t know Africa enough to say where the church is going there. I did live in Manila for four years and then I’ve been to Korea many times and been to Hong Kong. And of course now all three of those cities are facing different dynamics and who knows how the church is going to spread in those places.

I’m like you, I’m more in touch with the West. Canada is different than the United States. I’m a dual citizen so I know both sides of the border. Very different. Where do I see the church going? We’re in for a ride. We’re in for a very challenging time. The way I put it with young pastors, it’s almost a sense in which we’re returning to the beginning. The early churches, the letters that Paul writes are all to early churches, they’re all new church plants. The seven churches of Asia Minor in Revelation, they’re all young churches. They were facing a similar situation in that they had no political support. No political party – there weren’t parties, there were just dictators – didn’t support the church, didn’t name the name of Jesus, and they had no cultural support, there’s no precedent for it. So they had to learn to follow Jesus, how to be the church without the support of the government and without support from the culture. And it seems to me we’re in a similar place, especially in Canada. We have no support from the government. As such in fact, contrary in some ways, and then the culture has drifted in such a de-Christianized, almost neo-pagan direction, so we have no support there. We are at a place of great dependency. If the Spirit of God does not move, none of our technology and tricks are going to work. It just isn’t going to work. The Spirit is the one who makes Jesus real. He’s the one who convicts people. He’s the one who opens hearts. He’s the one who empowers ministry on and on. You know the drill: Not by power nor by might, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. Nothing we can do except cooperate and participate with the Holy Spirit.

I think we’re moving into a time when we’re going to have more courage and more conviction. As I am rereading so much of the New Testament, I tell my wife regularly – I did this morning – I know I’ve read this a lot of times, that I’ve even taught on this, but it’s like I just read it for the first time in some of the warning passages. You’re not going to be liked by everybody. Not everyone is going to embrace your agenda. You’re not of the world. You’re speaking a different language. You’re talking about a different reality. So don’t be surprised if you get some pushback. And of course, that’s my language. He says, don’t be surprised if you’re actually hated on account of me. So we’re moving into a time where it’s going to demand courage and conviction, perspective and a deep relationship with Jesus so that we can hang in there and keep our balance.

Kep Crabb: Yeah. I love that whole notion of hanging in there. Because what comes to my mind is the whole notion of finishing well.

Scripture talks about it all the time. I think it’s because the hardest part of the race is at the end. I was so fortunate to see my father finish well, as towards the end of his life, the only time he would weep was when he was going to see Jesus. I love to think of Revelation 4 and 5 now, because that’s where he’s at; in a place that’s existed before time, whatever that means. It just brings. chills to my neck as I think, what does my dad look like now as he’s staring at the Lamb on the throne and worshiping always. It just, to me, is so beautiful. It just drives me. The biggest thing for me that I’ve taken away from your book in some respect is, what does it mean to have an eternal perspective? Because that’s changed my life. I used to think, if I knew I was going to die tomorrow, how would that change how I live today? Probably wouldn’t want to start a fight with my wife.

Darrell Johnson: I would recommend against that. 

Kep Crabb: I probably wouldn’t watch the local sports game. Not very interested in that. I would probably want to make sure my kids and hopefully my grandson is here and I get a chance to pour into them. Because one of the things that I’ve seen and I’ve taken from your writings is your love of the Word. 

There’s a story Dad used to tell, you may remember The Red Skelton Show from back in the day. 

Darrell Johnson: Yes. Oh boy does that date us. 

Kep Crabb: He and his father would traditionally every week, watch that show. One day, I guess the show was getting ready to come on and Dad is a young boy – six, seven, eight years old – went looking for his father and his dad was sitting in the living room with his Bible open in front of the fireplace and said Larry not today. I’m into something here that I need to continue with. Dad was like, what’s more important than us watching The Red Skelton Show? And he went and looked at my grandfather, his father, who was sitting there reading the book. Ironically, he was reading the book of Leviticus and the love of the Word that my grandfather passed on to my dad and my dad has passed that on to my brother and myself. I’m so grateful that I think I’ve passed that on to my children. I can’t wait to start passing that on to my grandchild. That sounds so fun.

Darrell Johnson: You’re in for a ride, by the way. 

Kep Crabb: Tell me about it. 

Darrell Johnson: Your life is on a scale of one to 10. When you get married, it changes to, I don’t know, eight, maybe. And then you have children and it changes to about a 15 out of 10. And then grandkids. Oh man, it’s off the charts.

Kep Crabb: Yeah. That’s so fun, man. I cannot wait.

Darrell Johnson: It is very fun. Back to your emphasis on your dad and grandfather, in terms of the Word.

I think that is a critical thing for Disciples generally, but those in pastoral ministry specifically right now, we don’t have enough time in the Word. I’m afraid that too many of us go to the Word to get a word for Sunday or for whatever we’re going to teach. But living in the Word. If people ask me, where do you live? I want to be able to consistently say, in the Word. Sadly, there’s some days when it’s probably in the web, and if I’m living in the web, I’m not going to be able to make it in our time, but I’ve got to be in the Word more just to be in the Word. And then if I have something to preach, all the more that all the better, but that’s not the goal, right? That’s not the goal of living in the Word. You live in the Word so you know the Word Himself, the Word made flesh. 

E. Stanley Jones is a Methodist missionary to India of the last century. I’ve counted him as a mentor. I’ve never met him yet but I’ve read just about everything he’s written. He has this saying, he goes to the Gospels in particular, and he says to them, Have you seen Him whom my soul loves? And he says the words, “take me by the hand and lead me to the Word.” And I’ve hung onto that, that when we open the book, yes, we’re seeing words, but those words are taking us to the Word Himself, where we find life and hope and joy. So how then are we going to, in this time of supposed small attention spans and people bombarded by words, how are we going to really build solid disciples who live in the Word, who look at the world through the Word? That’s the challenge that I think is a fundamental challenge before us. Maybe that’s the next book, how to live in the Word.

Kep Crabb: How to live in the Word, that’s it. My dad would say to me many times, I have to spend time in the Word like I have to eat, and like I have to breathe. I’m now getting an understanding of that.

Darrell Johnson: The Word may flesh is the one who says, Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. How to do that is the challenge.

Kep Crabb: Yeah, the questions that come to mind as we think about this is, I saw something that you said a while ago about six boxes that you put together on how to hear the voice of the Lord. Dad used to talk to me about them. Someone would come to him and say, Larry, I’ve got a word for you from the Spirit. How did that impact you, Dad? And he said sometimes it means something to me. Sometimes it doesn’t. I said, how do you know that you’re getting a word from the Spirit?

He said there’s three things and you actually have six in a different way, but I think they’re all still in the same category. He said, scriptures, the first spending time in the Word. The second piece is community, spending time in community. And the last piece is prayer. These are the three legs to the stool.

I thought, okay a lot of people spend time in the Word regularly and they’re disciplined well in that respect. I don’t know many people that have had a community that’s been really effective in respect to touching them. Some have. But most small groups don’t end very well. Dad said that the Trinity is the only small group that’s actually gotten along well in the history of time.

Darrell Johnson: That’s good. That’s his line. I’m good. I’m going to use that.

Kep Crabb: You use it, please. And then the one that is most challenging is prayer. Dad wrote a book years ago called The PAPA Prayer. And the Word PAPA stands for four acronyms. It’s present, attend, purge and approach. 

We’re actually doing a series on that in this podcast, this last quarter, on prayer, because it seems to be so weak in so many people’s lives. I’ve seen just in my own life, in the last year or so that when I do present myself honestly to the Lord and attend to where I’m at and purge what’s going on in my soul and approach him as my deepest desire, the Spirit opens up doors that I never saw coming in my own prayer life. I don’t want to say it’s all the time because that’s not it, that’s for sure. But it’s been powerful, Darrell. And it’s been something that makes me want more. How is your prayer life?

Darrell Johnson: I would say a better way to answer that would be, how do I do the prayer life? Because the quality of a prayer life, that’s up and down, partly circumstantial, partly what’s going on in our own lives. It’s hard to register, but I can say that the last few years in particular, probably since 1989. I received a book by Eugene Peterson, Answering God, on the Psalms, and if you know that book, he says that the Psalms are prayers that tutor us in prayer. And he says the program is very simple. Just do it. Start with Psalm 1, go to 2, and keep going. So I’ve been doing that every day since my birthday in 1989. I do not know where I’d be without the Psalms. That has become the place where the Spirit of God enables me to approach the Father in the name of Jesus in very honest, full range, deep ways.

I can tell you that I can be really weary. I can be overloaded, but sitting in my chair in my study and just praying a Psalm every day has made all the difference in the world. If you read my book on Ephesians, Paul’s prayers, my goodness. Where did he learn to pray like that?

I think Paul learned to pray through the Psalms and then also through Jesus, watching Jesus pray and John 17. But Paul’s prayers have shaped my prayer life more. So the point you see what’s going there is my prayer life is shaped by the Word too. It’s not like there’s Word and prayer. There’s a word that teaches us to pray and as we pray, the Word becomes more alive and there’s a back and forthness to that so you can’t separate prayer and the Word. For the last decades that has been what sustains me in prayer.

I find more and more that if there’s a group meeting or a gathering of some sort and someone asks me to pray, I’m just going to whip out the book. I know the Psalms well enough that I know the Psalm that we’re going to pray. That’d be my response to prayer life.

Kep Crabb: And that’s what the disciples asked of Jesus. Teach us how to pray.

Darrell Johnson: They didn’t ask anything else that we have a record of. They may have said, teach us to preach like you preach, but there’s no record like that. No. Teach us to cast out demons. Nope. Teach us to pray. Because they could see that the essence of Jesus’ life and ministry was the relationship with the Father and the nature of that relationship.

He’s constantly slipping away. Sharon and I watched one of the episodes of The Chosen last night. It is so fun. You have to live with “what if,” it’s not always super accurate, but boy, I think they’re in touch with the dynamics of that. There’s a scene where Jesus has been in ministry with the disciples and they’re all having a good time and He starts to leave and they say, Where are you going? He goes, I’ll be back. I just need to go away alone. That was really powerful. Of course, they followed him out there, so he couldn’t be alone. But at any rate…

Kep Crabb: I love how that show fills in some of the gaps in some of the ways that we would have anticipated perhaps that those would have happened, but that aren’t necessarily in scripture.

Darrell Johnson: That’s right. Like the woman at the well when she presses him back. What do you mean? You don’t have a bucket. You’re going to get water. When I watched that I thought, okay, I pray, Lord, is that how that could have happened? And I had the peace of saying, it might have. It sure made it real.

Kep Crabb: Yeah, exactly right. It’s interesting because you said sometime I heard where you talk about the work of the Spirit and that’s been something that I’ve been really obsessed with lately, Darrell. How do you know the work of the Spirit’s going on? How do you know I’m getting a word from the Spirit? How do I know the Spirit’s hiding me? You made a comment that the Spirit works very slowly until He doesn’t anymore. And I think I’ve experienced some of that. Can you unpack that a little bit?

Darrell Johnson: Ordinarily – not always ordinarily, as someone said – the Spirit is a gentleman who comes at us mostly through a whisper, mostly in the quiet. If we listen. then He speaks more, and if we listen, He gets clearer, and if we listen more, there’s more direct leading. If, at the beginning, we hear, and then we back off a bit, and don’t listen, and back off a bit, and don’t listen, He doesn’t waste His breath. Just waits. Are you ready to hear or not?

Now, thankfully, there are times when He just takes charge, all right, I’ve had it with your hardened heart, Darrell, I’m going to barge in here. But ordinarily those whispers, that’s where the discipline for me comes.I’ve got to act on that right away. I said, I don’t want to miss the next thing He’s going to communicate. I think that’s what was behind that sentence.

Kep Crabb: When you mentioned earlier as we were chatting that our only real role is to cooperate and invite as the Spirit moves into our lives, Lord, there’s nothing that we can do, but as we invite the Spirit to move through us, and now the Spirit has an opportunity to connect with you, or iron sharpens iron, that people who don’t have the Spirit don’t have that opportunity. It just breaks my heart and it makes me feel like the house is on fire and there’s a baby in there that we have to go get. I don’t know.

I’ve been feeling the work of the Spirit in my own life. I told you a little bit about my story with my wife, which was a blow, but I’ve looked at it now after three years of, What a gift God has given us in respect to taking our eyes off of this world and putting our eyes on the next.

Darrell Johnson: So your wife had, did she die of cancer then? 

Kep Crabb: She’s alive. She was diagnosed June, September 8th of 2020. She went in to have the left lower lobe of her lung removed. They found a tumor in there. It was stage one at the time when they opened her up, they said, it’s now gone to stage four, which meant it had metastasized to the pleura of the lung, but it had not gone to the brain. I just said, Lord, this is so unfair. This is a woman who doesn’t smoke, eats well, takes care of herself, all the stuff. This is not fair. And God just says, I’m doing this for you. I could hear it. It’s been an amazing journey since then, which has changed my perspective in every way and how I live. Cause I know that I probably won’t have her for much longer, but God’s in it. I’m ready for it.

Darrell Johnson: Bless you. Bless you, Kep.

Kep Crabb: It’s good, but it’s hard, but that’s where God said, I’m not moving slowly anymore with you. I’m moving quickly now because it’s time. That kind of brings me back to our topic today on Revelation. I know this has been true since Jesus ascended, but I feel the Lord’s coming back soon. I think this world is in a place that seems to be setting up for things that I see of Him coming back to take us. Where are your thoughts on some of that, Darrell? Because I noticed you didn’t go into any of your own positions in this book, which I thought was brilliant.

Darrell Johnson: Let me back up just a second and say something more about apocalyptic literature. Can I do that for a moment? And then we set that other question in context, anywhere you want to go. Okay. Apocalyptic literature. That’s what we’re dealing with is, the first line of the book is the apocalypse of Jesus Christ.

As I say in the book and as I preach on that, when most people hear the word apocalypse, they go, Oh no, something really bad is about to happen. You can regularly hear the news media describing the war in Ukraine or other kinds of tragedies. We warn you, you’re going to see some apocalyptic images, right? That’s a wrong use of the word apocalyptic. You’re going to see some horrific images. You’re going to see some cataclysmic and catastrophic images, but those are not necessarily apocalyptic. Apocalypse simply means, breaking through from hiddenness. Apocalypse: lift the cover off of a box, the cover page of a book, pull back a curtain. In the first century when people heard “apocalypse,” they went, Oh wow, something wonderful is about to happen. Do it. Pull back the screen. So apocalyptic literature functions in that way to reveal what is ordinarily hidden. Now it does this in two ways, and has two pastoral purposes. 

The first is to set the present moment. In all of its chaos and ambiguity in light of the unseen realities of the future. Because if you can see the future for just a moment, it changes the way you see the present, and it can change the way you live the present. You’ve been hinting at that all the way along here today. Set the present moment in light of the unseen realities of the future. We can’t see the future with our unaided senses. The future is, Jesus is coming with a new heaven and a new earth. I love the image right there in chapter 21 of Revelation, and He will wipe away all their tears. I’ve preached, there will be no more tears. But lately I’ve been captured by that tender image. He himself will wipe away all those tears. There’s a lot of tears to wipe away and He’s going to do it. So the future, but the other function of apocalyptic literature and actually the more primary one is to set the present moment in light of the unseen realities of the present because we don’t see all that’s going on in the present moment. There is more to reality than what we can see with our eyes and hear with our ears and touch with our hands, smell with our nose, et cetera. The role of apocalyptic literature is then to open up that more. 

You’ve read into the book far enough to know what I’m going to say, the greatest unseen reality of the present moment is a person. Jesus himself. And that’s the job of the last book of the Bible. Both of those, but primarily the second, because in order to operate in this present moment, we need to know the full reality of the present moment. And most of us do not. We don’t pay attention to the fact that, for instance, there are angelic forces, principalities and powers, all of which we don’t take into consideration. But primarily, we don’t take into consideration that the one who is coming is present, even now, with us. And if we can see Him it can change the present. There are two commands in the last book of the Bible. You saw me pause because the title is not Revelation, but the Revelation of Jesus Christ, a whole mouthful. You have to say it because it’s revealing Him. 

There are two primary commands in the book. The first is do not be afraid. I forgot how many times it occurs. Do not be afraid. Do not be afraid. And the second command is behold. Behold or look, not all translations keep that behold or look anymore. It’s an imperative. It’s really critical. So you want to have a version of the Bible that keeps the word behold or look. Jesus says, do not be afraid, look, and it turns out that we obey the first command, do not be afraid by obeying the second command, look, which is a way of saying that we’re so afraid right now in 2023 because we’re not looking at Him.

We’re looking at all the economic factors. We’re looking at all the political factors that are scary. I was just in the States last week, speaking at a conference with pastors and pastors are really trembling about how they’re going to handle the next few months. The political situation we’re looking at the rise of militant terrorism and all those other kinds of things we’re looking at, but we’re not seeing Jesus. So as long as we look at those things, we’re going to be afraid. But once we see Jesus in the midst of it and begin to understand what He might be doing with all of that, then we can breathe, we can hold our own, we can keep our balance, even though it might be frightening, and it may require all kinds of courage, as I said earlier.

So I think that’s why Jesus gave the revelation to John on the prison island. If you can see me, and see who I am, I have the keys. I am ruler of the kings of the earth right now. I am stronger than the dragon and the two beasts. If we can see that, we’ll make it. If we don’t, we’ll compromise, which of course we see happening in many places.

Kep Crabb: All over the place. How do you keep your eyes focused on Jesus?

Darrell Johnson: I’d say that’s the number one question. 

Kep Crabb: I think of Peter as he’s getting out of the boat to walk across the water. I’ve been through some deep waters and I know you have too. This life, I love to say, is just not set up to work. I’m in my mid fifties now, and I’m not what I was when I was 35 years old. My body hurts more and it’s just set up to fail because of the fall. And so in the midst of the broken world, in the midst of this broken world when it really does oftentimes seem that Satan is winning, how do we keep our eyes firmly fixed on Jesus?

Darrell Johnson: Very good question. I’m going to give an answer. We’ve probably talked, we’ve talked about before already in this podcast. For the listeners, believe me, I don’t mean this piously. I don’t mean this naively. There’s only one way to fix your eyes on Jesus, and that’s living in the Word. It’s the only way. I recently put it this way. See if you agree with me, Kep. A person can be in relationship with Jesus without spending time in scripture. That’s because Jesus has gotten a hold of us, right? He took a hold of me. He initiated that relationship. Paul says, He seized me. And now I want to seize the reason He seized me. I can be in relationship, but not know Him. Look at marriages. They’re in relationship, but they gave up getting to know each other, and the only way in a marriage you can know the other is the other has to reveal herself or himself to the other. So in this relationship with Jesus, I can’t know Him unless I listen to Him, reveal Himself to me. And we’re stuck. There’s only one place we get the living, breathing Word.

Kep Crabb: Is that most of Christians today, Darrell? Is that the majority of Christians today? That just don’t spend time in the Word and don’t know Jesus in the way that He wants?

Darrell Johnson: I don’t know about the majority, how to answer that specifically. Yes, I think that’s the crisis right now. For pastors who are listening in on us today, I would say that’s the crisis in the church. Our people who might love Jesus and have good feelings toward Him and really want to follow Him don’t have enough time in the place where He actually meets us to actually know His character. And that’s why we can get snookered by the enemy. Because we don’t know the real thing well enough. 

The story about how FBI agents are trained to spot counterfeit money is that they’re never shown counterfeit money. They know the real money so well that the counterfeit comes and they go, that’s bogus. You can throw that right away. So the only way we’re going to be able to stand against the lies all around us right now is we have to know Him who is the truth and the only way to do that is in the Word.

Now, here’s the caveat or not caveat that application. Different people learn in different ways. Different people read in different ways. So the job of the leaders is to find out the different personality types and the different learning types. How do we help them get in the Word? For some, it’s going to be listening to the Word orally. Get that iPod, get that iPhone on, go for a walk and just plug that in for 40 minutes and listen to the gospel of John. If that’s how you learn. Others, it’s reading. Others, it would be through film. Now that’s where it’s a little dicey because you want to make sure the film is doing a good job. Others it’s through teaching, you or I communicating with people. There’s going to be different ways, but all but the final analysis is that it’s the Word. Remember the Richard scary pop up books? Remember those at all? 

Kep Crabb: I do, vaguely. 

Darrell Johnson: Yeah, so you open the book and then there’s a three dimensional picture that emerges. I think of scripture that way. You open the book and Jesus pops out and that’s where you meet Him. That’s where He tells you His character. And the more I can do that, the more I spot the counterfeit instantaneously. Again, I keep using this word, I get my balance again, get perspective and I can keep going. 

I lament the… I don’t like to use the phrase biblical illiteracy. That sounds like someone intentionally didn’t want to know. But the lack of the Word. Now that’s a lifetime of discipline. I’m going to turn 76 in a few weeks, so I’ve got a few years on you. I can tell you right now that scripture has never been as alive for me as it is right now. I said earlier that I said to my wife this morning, I know I read that. I think if she were here, she’d say, you tell me that every day, because it’s getting richer and richer and richer and bigger and better and more massive. And I want everybody to have that experience. So the older you get, the more He meets you in the Word.

Kep Crabb: That is so encouraging. Yeah. I’m in a life group with two other guys that are your age and what I’ve come to realize in chatting with these guys weekly for the last year and a half now is it doesn’t get any easier. This life gets harder in respect to even relational challenges, obviously physical challenges. But I love what you said. The Word is coming alive in a new way, a different way to you now, even after having spent a half a century immersed in it because it continues to talk. I got a chance to watch one of your messages on the distinctions between Isaiah 6 and Revelation 4 and 5, and I just loved it. I loved it so much because the difference is Jesus, the Lamb. That now has opened up the throne room to all of us where He’s sitting in the middle. I just continue to think that’s where my dad is. Now he’s one of those 24 thrones around the big throne who’s just worshiping the King, who’s a Lamb sitting in the middle. It just brings goosebumps to my body thinking that’s where my dad is right now. I can’t get over it. It’s just so powerful.

Darrell Johnson: No, yeah, we lost a son. That’s where our son is. And my mom and dad and my two brothers and all the dear friends, all the dear people I’ve served over the years and done funerals for. They’re there and they’re fine. More than fine. 

I’d like to think – I think we have biblical justification for it, like in Revelation 7 and then in 12 – they’re praying for us. I don’t know that they can see through that thin veil between the two worlds, we’re probably going to be heretics if we try to talk about that any further, but I think there is a sense in which they are aware we’re not there. They may not experience the pain that we have, the pain of the loss of them. They may not have that same pain, but they’re aware. Your dad’s aware you’re not there and he’s praying for you and your brother and your family. And man and boy, do they know how to pray in that world because they know what it’s going to be like and more importantly, back to revelation again, they know what it’s really like, even now. I would like to think that your dad’s praying, Oh, Lord, help Kep see. Help him see the full present right now. Give him a glimpse of the future, but help him know what’s really going on in the future and the present that Jesus is really there for him and with him.

Kep Crabb: It brings tears to my eyes. I’d love to think of the fact that my father is no longer living with faith or living with hope. He’s just living in love, no more faith and hope. Because the greatest of these is love. Because at some point, faith and hope end when you’re sitting there looking at Jesus. Now he sees Jesus. I would often say to my brother, If Dad were to come back and write a book, that would be a book I would buy after what he’s had a chance to see for the last two and a half years as he’s in the presence of Jesus and just worshiping. 

I love your notion on worship too. And that it’s something that’s happened before time. I used to have a chance to lead worship at various churches and I hate saying leading worship, you’re leading the music part of a worship of a church. Worship doesn’t ever start or stop. Okay. It’s time to start worshiping now, everybody. And okay, we’re done worshiping. And now if someone’s going to, I never understood that. I always think I’m just hopefully bringing you to the throne room and this is where you want to live. And it’s just so exciting to have heaven on the forefront of our minds. I love to think about that. And that’s where the book of Revelation, the Revelation of Jesus Christ, is something that changes the way I live right now, as I think about heaven. 

I think that the biggest job that we’re doing with Larger Story and why I created this ministry was when my dad passed, I thought this is not going to be good. If what he talked about then, what does it mean to represent Jesus now to others relationally? If that were to die with him, I said, that would not be good. I don’t want that. I want that to continue to live. And our focus is to really, what does it mean to to cross generationally disciple people?

How do I talk to my daughter who’s 26 today and my son who’s 23, and how do I talk to them in a way that gets them hungry and thirsty for the Lord? How do I let them know that this life and the things that the world is trying to tell you is life actually, those are the things that I’m thinking about now.

Darrell Johnson: Yeah, we’re living in a time when a lot of what’s being said is death. They don’t see it now, but they’re going to see it. I’m working with a young church here, Sharon and I. I’ve always served churches that have been at least 60 years old. Wonderful opportunities, but as if you serve a church that’s been around a while, you’ll hear a lot of, we don’t do it that way, or we’ve never done it that way, or that sort of thing. Bless their hearts, as they say in the South, just bless their hearts. So it’s great to be part of a church where it’s not been around long enough for anybody to say that, so we can experiment, but I can tell you, I’m the oldest person in the building every Sunday. I’m preaching this next Sunday, but I’m the oldest person there. Hundreds of these young people, they are so hungry. I don’t remember being that hungry. When I was in university, I knew I was hungry. I knew I loved Jesus. I knew I wanted to know Him and follow Him, but my goodness, they’re really alive right now. And I asked them, where’s this hunger come from? And they’ll say, because it’s not working, nothing’s working for us right now. So this may be for a while, the first generation that at a young age is not buying into the illusion that we can make the world work. So they’re hungering for more and then they hear the story and the story pointing to Jesus. And I go, where did this come from? How come I didn’t know this before? I could tell you all kinds of stories. I even heard this morning reported from Sunday. So it’s a great generation. Your kids are in that. 

One of the things I discovered, Kep, that I think is a key, is that your age and my age especially, I wonder if our posture needs to be more, a posture of listening than telling. We’ll get a chance to tell only if they feel we’ve listened and their questions are very different than the ones I had. I went to university 65 to 69, and that was a whole different world. We had questions, but not like now. And so I think that the younger generation is looking for people like you and me who will just listen. And then they finally say, so what do you think?

Kep Crabb:  Dad used to call that the art of curiosity. That’s good. What does it mean to be curious? I’ve said that too, Darrell. I’ve sensed that as well, that the younger generation is hungry for something. They’re thirsty for something because they’re seeing such a distinction in respect to the direction that some of these places are going, that they’re like that’s not the direction I want to go. That goes back to our first question of the day, where’s the church going? I think there’s some real hope for what’s happening. I think there’s some real struggle and it’s going to be challenging, but boy, there’s some people out there. Younger generations, younger kids. 

My son is one of them as well, who I just had a conversation with a few weeks ago for about an hour and a half of where he’s at, where’s his red dot. That’s what we call it. Where are you at? It’s when you walk into the mall and you say, here’s where I’m at, but I want to go here, so I need to go this way, and then I need to go this way. And he was just unloading on me in some ways that just made my heart sing because the Lord’s grabbing hold of his life. This is a 23 year old boy who’s making his way now and finished college and deciding whether or not he wants to get married and he’s got himself a girl and when he is going to do that thing and who knows. It just made my heart sing. I think he’s indicative of a lot of these kids nowadays that are hungry. I think you’re spot on as we have two ears and one mouth. I want to know what makes you guys click and I want to know what your struggles are.

Darrell Johnson: Yeah. Where are you afraid? What are you longing for? What are you hoping for? Where do you find any hope? Many in this generation say, I don’t, it’s hopeless. Here, let me give you a possible hope. Hope has a name.

Kep Crabb: And He’s sitting on the throne.

Darrell Johnson: And he’s going to win. 

Kep Crabb: He’s going to win. Jesus wins. Oh Darrell, He already has. We know how the story ends. 

Darrell Johnson: We had Good Friday. He won already. We know how He’s going to pull it all together.

Kep Crabb: Darrell, this is so encouraging to chat with you. I just really appreciate your time and just taking an hour out of your day to chat with me. It means the world. I’ve read a number of your books. I’ve been an admirer of your work for years. My father has as well, and that was largely through him. But it was just so encouraging to chat with you today. I’m hoping that the Spirit can take this and do with it what He chooses.

Darrell Johnson: I do too. It’s a joy to meet you. It’s a real joy.

Kep Crabb: I hope we can do this again sometime. Maybe if we get our glitches worked out, we can get this figured out.

I have really enjoyed chatting with you. Again, you remind me of my dad, the way you look, the way you speak and your love for the Word. I think similar to Dad, you’re not pulling any punches. This is where life is and life’s hard, but Jesus wins. And I think that’s a great place for us to wrap today.

So folks, I just appreciate you joining us today on behalf of Darrell. I’m Kep Crabb. Join us every Tuesday here on Relational Spirituality, where you can belong, you can be known, and you can become who God wants us to be. I pray that the Lord will use this in your lives today. 

Darrell, thank you so much for joining me and God bless you, Sharon, your children, your 11 grandchildren.

I just really am grateful for this time.

Darrell Johnson: Bless you. This is pure joy.

Kep Crabb: Thanks.

Jesus invites us to come to Him in faith with all of our requests. So what do we do with the times He doesn’t seem to answer prayer for legitimate needs? Dr. Larry Crabb explores the mystery of relationship with a God Whose character can be trusted even when life doesn’t make sense to us.

Bio: Through his storied 40-year career as a Bible teacher, psychologist, and author, Dr. Larry Crabb shared the movement of God in his own soul and through his story. In every book, article, sermon, or seminar, Larry reminds us to see the hand of God and hear His voice in any circumstance and condition of our soul.

Show Note Links:   

The PAPA Prayer 

Transcript

Kep Crabb: Welcome to Relational Spirituality, a Larger Story podcast, where you can belong, you can become, and you can be known in the story that’s going on right now, I’m Kep Crabb. Today we’re going to be hearing from the author of the book that we’ve been looking at, Dr. Larry Crabb. He’s going to unpack his book, The PAPA Prayer. Larry wrote this book out of some confusion and sometimes frustration with his own prayer life. So as you wrestle today with your prayer life, consider presenting, attending, purging, and approaching God as your deepest desire and His spirit might open unexpected doors in your prayer lives.

And now, Dr. Larry Crabb, talking about The PAPA Prayer.

Larry Crabb: It is Mother’s Day and I was thinking as I was sitting there that I was lying in my mother’s nursing home, she on one bed, I on another as she was passing into eternity several years ago and I listened as she took her last breath. The last seven years of her life, she struggled with Alzheimer’s. The long goodbye. I recall one time I was kneeling in front of my mother, visiting her, when her mind was completely gone. Except for a moment. I was saying to her, Mom, have you bought your party dress yet? She had no response. Do you have that gorgeous gown? That’s going to reveal the beauty of your soul. I went on like that, talking like that, with tears coming down my face for several moments. And then Mother, in her last moment of lucidity, looked at me, regained complete consciousness, and said, Are you talking about heaven? I said, Yeah! And then she went back into her mindless state. But now her mind is fully restored. 

I prayed for my mother. I prayed that my mother would reverse the Alzheimer’s. She didn’t. My question this morning is, what on earth is prayer all about? I want to spend some time speaking about the title I’ve given to this talk, Unpacking but Never Solving The Mystery of Prayer.

I do want to mention just as I start though that this past week being at Regent was an incredible privilege for me, and meeting Darrell for the first time was really one of the highlights of the week for me. During that week, I had several people come to me, maybe a dozen, and just kindly ask Larry, are you flying back to Denver, or flying back to your next place as soon as the conference is over on Friday?

Every time, I said to these dozen or so people, No, I’ve been invited to speak at Tenth. Every time, when I said that, people went, Oh! And I’m like, what on earth am I getting myself into? And all dozen people said some version of, Oh, that’s a place where good things are happening. You’ll enjoy your time there. My prayer is that I will not get in the way of the good things that are happening here at Tenth today, but will perhaps be able to catch the flow of God’s Spirit here and see if maybe some more good things can happen. I want to begin with a question. And after I ask one question, I want to give you one verse and then start talking about the mystery of prayer.

The question is this, and just think about it for a moment and answer it honestly. How many of you would say, as you perhaps have been following Jesus for a number of years, how many of you would say that there has been at least one time, maybe hundreds, but at least one time, when you’ve asked for something, believing God could give it? Knowing it wasn’t a selfish prayer to consume on your own illegitimate self centered desires, how many of you would say that at least one time, perhaps many times, you’ve asked for something, believing God could give it, and He didn’t? How many of you know what the word unanswered prayer means? Would you raise your hands? That’s almost everybody.

Before the younger folks were dismissed, I saw a young girl up here wearing a Superman shirt. When I was 10 years old, I was exposed to the verse that I want you to look at with me in just a moment. In Matthew 21, verse 22, Jesus said, If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. First time I heard that verse, I was 10 years old. I thought of this as I was looking at the young girl sitting up in the balcony with her big “S” on her shirt. I went home from Sunday school that morning after my Sunday school teacher had taught about that verse. I thought, that’s a pretty good deal. Let me see if I can exploit it. I didn’t know the word exploit then, but that was my mood. Let me see if I can take advantage. Let me see if I can come to this wonderful God who says, whatever, no qualifications, whatever, it’s yours, just believe, He can do it. That’s how I read the verse as a ten year old kid. So I went outside and I thought, What do I really want? It happened just this way. I want to fly like Superman. Jesus doesn’t tell lies. A child’s faith carried me outside after Sunday dinner to the driveway in front of our home, and quite literally, I prayed my prayer claiming Matthew 21:22, whatever you ask for, if you believe it’s yours, Lord, I wanna fly like Superman. Here’s the plan God. I’m gonna jump, and I don’t want to come down. I want to keep going. So I jumped and came down just like that. Four times. And that began my journey of confusion about prayer.

God, what are you talking about? You don’t tell lies. I know you don’t. I don’t understand this mystery of prayer. You tell me in your word, Jesus, that whatever I ask for, it’ll be mine if I believe. Have you all been confused about prayer to some degree? Because if you’re not, I’m going to feel very lonely up here. I have felt very confused about prayer. Forgive my candor, but prayer sometimes has seemed more like a roll of the dice than a child talking to his loving father. 

Some years ago, five or six years ago, our younger son went through the hardest time of his life. He said to me and to his mother one day, Mom and Dad, I’ve been able to save up enough money to go away for 10 days, literally halfway across the world, from Cleveland, Ohio, where he was living then and is living now. I’m going to go halfway across the world for 10 days. I’m going to get away. I’ve got to get away from the horrors of my situation. I want you to know, I’m going to go because I want to find God in a way I don’t know Him now. Because if I don’t find Him in a way I don’t know Him now, I’m not sure if I’m going to make it. What’s a father’s heart do? What’s a mother’s heart do? Dear Lord.

We begin praying. I promised to my son, I said, the whole 10 days you’re gone, I’m going to pray for you, every day, minimum, 15 minutes. My commitment to you is that you will be prayed for. I will lift you before the throne of grace. Good old fashioned religious language. I’ll lift you before the Holy Trinity. Once a day, minimum, for at least 15 minutes. I honored that commitment, and as my son was gone for 10 days, I prayed every day. It was about the seventh day that he was gone. I was driving someplace. I had an hour and a half in the car and I thought, I’ll spend my time praying for Ken. I tell this story of course with his permission. I began praying for Ken in the car. When you’ve been praying for something that matters to you deeply, have you ever gotten bored? What’s the point? Does prayer work? I jumped to fly like Superman, and I came down. Will this be any different now that the stakes are almost infinitely higher for my son’s well being in the middle of a spiritual crisis? I found myself, with that lack of confidence within my soul, I found myself sing-songing a prayer.

As I’m driving along in the car, it happened just like this. Dear Lord, uh, really bless Kenny and uh, just make sure that he’s… Let me change the station there. Dear Lord um, where was I now? Yeah. Bless Kenny and make sure that um, you know, that he finds you in some um, deep ways. 

I caught myself being bored with prayer and I thought, this isn’t good. So I turned the radio off. I began to ask, what is most alive in me right now as I am praying for my son in the middle of his great distress? I found myself saying what I want for him is what I want so much for myself. I want to know God in a way that I have yet to know Him and I found myself beginning to sing my prayers and I began to sing “Great is Thy Faithfulness,” the old wonderful hymn. I was raised in a Christian home, I know all 12 verses. I sang through all the verses of “Great is Thy Faithfulness”, and my tears were coming down my face so strongly, I had to pull the car over to the side of the road, I couldn’t drive, I was crying so hard. 

Then I sang this simple little chorus, “I love you Lord, and I lift my heart, I lift my voice.” Lord, I love you. May my son be able to sing “Great is Thy Faithfulness.” May he be able to sing I love you in the middle of his life falling apart in ways that were incredibly painful, walking a path of pain I had never walked. And the last song I prayed was, “It Is Well With My Soul.” Lord, that’s the prayer that I’m praying for myself. I want to know that it’s well with my soul, whether things are good or bad in my life, in my world. I want my son to be able to sing that. I sang that hymn, again, singing all the verses. I probably prayed for about 45 minutes of singing by the side of the road before I continued my journey. 

Two weeks later, Rachel and I visited Cleveland. My son was back from his trip. We had lunch on an outdoor patio in Chagrin Falls, a cute little part of town, outside of Cleveland. I said to him, Ken, I gotta tell you about a day that I prayed for you. It was a Saturday, seven days into your trip, it was Saturday noon and I was driving someplace. And here’s what happened, and I told him the story I’ve just told you. When I told him that, Ken sat up, and he said, Exactly when did you pray that? I said, it was noon on Saturday and he did his time calculations, time zones and all that. And he sat back and he said, “Dad, Mom, that’s the first day I had the courage to face the pain in my soul. I walked for three hours on the beach in the area where I was staying for those ten days. For the first time I got away from doing fun things and reading fun novels and I went out just to be with God for three hours walking the beach and for three straight hours beginning the same time you prayed for me, for three hours literally I could do nothing but sing, ‘Great is Thy Faithfulness,’ ‘I love you Lord,’ and ‘It Is Well With My Soul.’”

Maybe there is a Holy Spirit.

Why, then, when I pray for my son to be touched by the presence of God, is that prayer answered? And then 14 years ago, when I prayed the typical casual prayer, if you will, for my brother’s safety on a plane trip, why did his plane crash and he was killed? Why does prayer sometimes seem to me like a roll of the dice?

I found the courage, at least some little portion of it, to look at the mystery of prayer three or four years ago, acknowledging that prayer was the weakest part of my spiritual journey. I found the courage to look at my journey of confusion when I read an article by C. S. Lewis on his confusion with prayer, and I figured if C. S. Lewis can admit his confusion with prayer, certainly I can admit mine. He talked in this little article – that I read several years ago actually – about it for the first time. Several years ago, he identified two patterns of prayer in the gospel records. One pattern taught by Jesus, and he referred to the passage in Matthew 21:22. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer, and Lewis said, that seems to be an unconditional promise that doesn’t work. But the other pattern of prayer, Pattern B he called it, the pattern of Gethsemane, where Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane said, Take away this cup, but nevertheless not my will but yours.

Lewis said, and I wholeheartedly agreed when I first read it, That kind of prayer makes some sense to me. I can pray for the things that I want, but I don’t know what’s best. Am I willing to yield to God’s superior wisdom? Am I willing to yield to what He knows is best? And when He says no, can I trust His good heart is still good toward me? That makes sense to me. But what didn’t make sense to me, and is still a mystery to me, is what the Lord said in Matthew 21. Will you take your Bibles, if you have them with you, and turn to that passage? I want to read the context of that verse and see if we can make a little bit of sense out of this confusing mystery.

We all would agree, that when we ask, Lord, reverse my mother’s Alzheimer’s. Lord, heal the infection quickly. Lord, give me a new job. Lord, may my husband stop drinking. Lord, may my children come back to you in a powerful way. We pray all these prayers that, any other loving person would agree, are legitimate prayers. If I had the power to grant your requests when you pray like that, I would likely do that. Am I better than God, who doesn’t do it sometimes? Clearly, His response is to say, I know what’s best. Trust me, my child. And when it’s my will, it will be done. When it’s not my will, it will not be done.

Take this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done. That’s pattern B. But what do you do with pattern A? Is it different? If you believe, you’ll receive whatever you ask for. There’s no conditionality implied in that verse except the if you believe. Let me read you the passage and see if we can get an insight or two into this passage.

Matthew 21 and verse 18. Here’s the context for what He said. Early in the morning, as Jesus was on His way back to the city, back to Jerusalem, coming close to His crucifixion, He was hungry. And, like any other human being, early in the morning, taking a couple of mile walking trip, wanting to have some kind of breakfast, He saw a fig tree by the road and He went up to it. The parallel passage in Mark tells us that there were leaves that He saw on the fig tree. And the early leaves on the tree made Him wonder if perhaps there’s figs that are growing on this tree before they’re due to grow. It was not yet time for the fig tree to bear figs, but there were leaves on it. Jesus saw the leaves and wondered, did the leaves signify fruit? And so He walked up to the tree, and He found nothing on it except leaves. Does Jesus ever confuse you? Then He said to the tree – Now, imagine you’re a disciple watching this whole episode. – May you never bear fruit again! Immediately, the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. And they asked a question. How did the fig tree wither so quickly? My guess is, under their breath, they were asking another question. What’s going on with you? We don’t get your angry outbursts because you didn’t get a fig. You make no sense to us, Jesus. Was Jesus being petulant?

If you know me well, if you’ve had the rather questionable opportunity of dining with me, you’d know that I like my coffee hot. Really hot. I tell the waiter or the waitress, your tip depends on blisters forming on my tongue when I drink my coffee. And people know me well, when the coffee comes, the whole table gets quiet, and I take a sip, and either I, ooh, or, oh. Now suppose you were with me and I ordered coffee and the coffee came and I took a sip and it was lukewarm. And my response was to throw it on the waiter, say, this coffee’s not hot enough. I’m never going to drink coffee in this restaurant again. Is that clear? How would you look at me? Just like Jesus.

That wouldn’t be just like Jesus. So what’s going on with Jesus? The disciples say, how did the fig tree wither so quickly? And Jesus replies – and does this answer the question? – I tell you the truth. If you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, and I’m there saying, is that what I had in mind? Do I want to go around and wither leaves on a fig tree? I don’t quite get the point of the power available to me. But also, you can say to this mountain, look over there, see that big mountain over there? You can say to this mountain, go, throw yourself into the sea, and it will be done. I wonder if any disciple kind of turned a little bashfully and went, Leave. And the mountain stayed there. Jump. Fly like Superman. And the little boy came down in the driveway. If you believe, you’ll receive whatever you ask for in prayer. What’s he talking about? I don’t know. Let’s close in prayer.

And I don’t know. But I want to suggest a few thoughts. I want to unpack, but not solve, the mystery of prayer. As I read this passage and ponder it, and have pondered it now for some time, and wonder exactly, what is my Lord doing? Why the outburst against the fig tree? Why the leaves withering so quickly? Why, when the disciples had no idea what was happening, did He say three things to them? You can wither leaves too. You can move mountains. Whatever you ask for is yours if you believe. What is Jesus saying? Why did Jesus come? Why was He incarnate? Why did the eternal Son of God come into Bethlehem’s manger and become a little tiny baby, conceived in Mary’s womb, lived 33 years on this earth, go to the cross, rise from the dead, back in heaven as our great high priest? The gospel story is familiar to most of us. Why did it all happen? What’s the point of it? To save me from sin, yes. To secure my salvation, yes, of course. That I can spend eternity knowing the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and dancing with their community forever and ever. Yes, all that’s true. But I wonder if maybe at least one element of the center of why Jesus came had to do with what the Father felt when Adam and Eve, a long time ago, said. We don’t want you.

I wonder how many mothers here have children who’ve said, we don’t want you. Mother’s Day is a hard day for some moms. Father’s Day is a hard day for some dads. It’s a hard day for God, I would suggest. Walking in the cool of the evening, providing everything that was wonderful and perfect for them, one commandment, don’t eat of this particular tree. And Adam and Eve chose to eat of that particular tree, as if to say, like the prodigal son, we’re not terribly interested in knowing you, we want the best deal for us, and we’ll take from you whatever we can get, and whatever you don’t give us, we’ll grab it anyhow, because we don’t really trust your heart.

You know what the Father felt? And when Adam and Eve sinned, when they ate of the fruit, what did they cover themselves with? Fig leaves. As if to say what? We’re going to hide. We’re going to pretend that things within us are not as bad as they seem. We’re going to cover ourselves with that which makes us look clothed and hides our shame, hides our lostness. We’re not going to acknowledge how lost we are without you. We’re going to find some way to make it without ever having to acknowledge what is happening within us. And how does the Father feel as you and I are running around through our lives wearing fig leaves? Fig leaves are a pretense.

Why so often in Christian community, do we meet each other at the level of leaves? As opposed to at the level of fruit? Why so often, in our Christian communities, when you walk up to me and say, “How you doing?” And my response, “Hey, great!” I’m not doing great. I’m broken. Hurting. Struggling. Happy about some things, burdened about some other things, rejoicing in many things. I wish I could say all things, not that mature, but struggling with some things that are hard. I want to keep the leaves in place because I don’t want you to really know me. And Jesus looks at a fig tree that has leaves all over it and no fruit beneath it and says, that’s not the plan. The plan is for the children of God to not hide behind leaves, but to acknowledge their emptiness without God so that real fruit can be born. That’s the real plan. In chapter 9 of Hosea, in verse 10, the Father is reminiscing about Israel when they were young. How many of you moms have been reminiscing a little bit today when your kids were little? What memories do you have? Some of the pleasant memories when they just snuggled with you. Wanted to be with you. I think back to the memories of our two boys that are now almost 38 and 35 and thinking about what it was like when they were just real little. And the time at a church service when our four year old son, our older son, got up in front of 500 people before Christmas and impromptu sang “Silent Night” in a beautiful little boy’s voice and the whole place was in tears.

When I think of that memory it was painful to me when years later our son rebelled badly and walked far away from God. As I saw him moving in very bad directions, and I remembered the early days when our son was young, and singing “Silent Night” in a church service, and obedient to his mom and dad, and going to bed on time, and all the things that you wanted, and looking at mom and dad and saying, “I love you Mom, I love you Dad.” And then 15, 16, 17 years later, rebelling badly. The father was reminiscing about the son, about His children Israel. And Hosea 9 verse 10. And what He says in that passage is, I remember seeing you, Israel, was like seeing early figs on the tree. I wonder if Jesus was thinking of that passage. I don’t know.

But what if Jesus is seeing the fig leaves, and rather than just being petulant about not having a breakfast, the purpose for which I came was to restore people who are hiding into openness, so when they’re open and take off their fig leaves, and realize that there is no fruit within them, they can come before a merciful God who still wants them back, and is going to forgive them, and invade their lives, and produce fruit within them out of hearts that the Spirit will give them, so that they will want their Father again.

Is the son thinking all of that? I don’t know. But it makes sense to me. Because when the disciples said, we don’t get it. How do the fig leaves wither so quickly? What did Jesus say? If you want it, if you want the same power, you can look in the mirror and say, fig leaves wither. You can look in the mirror and say, stop pretending. Be who you are, be the broken people that you are before God, and what you’ll discover when the fig leaves wither. As our sister discovered this morning, as she testified in her baptism, when the fig leaves of, I can make it without God, collapsed and withered, what did she discover? I really want Him. I was designed for Him. I really want to know Him. That’s what I really want. More than anything else, I want to know God. Yes, I want good health. Yes, I want a good job. Yes, I want a good family. Yes, I want good kids. Yes, I want many things, but in the core of my being, what I want more than anything else, once the fig leaves come off, is I really want God.

If you want to wither the fig leaves, you can do it. Jesus is saying to me, and then He says, see that mountain over there? I’ll get rid of it. I wonder if His mind went back to Isaiah 40. Every mountain, every hill will be lowered, brought low. In other words, every obstacle to your coming to God and enjoying the friendship. Every obstacle to your being a child in whom God can say, that’s my kid, look at the fruit. He loves me. She loves me. Look at her heart. Look at his life. That’s my kind of child. That’s what Jesus did. And the Spirit came into them and indwelt them. And look at that. There’s a child with fruit who’s coming to my Father. Every obstacle, every mountain to the highway of holiness to the desert into the presence of God, every mountain will be removed. When I pray to fly like Superman, I have no guarantee. But when I pray to know God, I have a guarantee. The pretense will go. The obstacles will be removed. And then Jesus summarizes it all by saying, if you believe what? The context would suggest to me that what Jesus is saying is, If you believe in my mission, if you believe in what I came to do, if you believe that your greatest good is not sleeping well, but your greatest good is knowing me whether you sleep well or not. If you believe that your greatest good is not having your kids love Jesus, but you pray like mad for that, of course. But your greatest good is when your child is breaking your heart that you can know Jesus and stop pretending that you’re not hurting. That you’re broken. That you’re struggling. If you believe, then whatever you ask for, that’s consistent with your deepest desire as a deer panting after the water books.

If you believe that your greatest desire is satisfied in knowing God. If you believe that, I’ll see to it happens. That’s Jesus talking. He doesn’t lie.

One of my favorite quotes by Lewis. Put first things first, and second things are thrown in. Put second things first, and you lose both first and second things. What’s the first thing? God. Knowing Him. Being related to Him. Being identified with Him. Being indwelt by His Spirit. Becoming like Him. Advancing His purposes in this world. Being missional in your orientation toward life. That’s the first thing. It’s all wrapped up in the glory of God. Everything else… Your health, your job, your family, your ministry. Everything else is a second thing. And when you pray a petitionary prayer, which God wants us to do as little children, to come before the Father and say, Father, here’s what I really would like. I would love for the money to come in to support this very worthwhile building project. Is it guaranteed 100 percent? I would question that. Should it be prayed for? Absolutely. Is it God’s will? You’ll find out. But in the middle of your prayers for that, in the middle of wanting to see the kingdom advanced through the work of Tenth by this building project being well funded, in the middle of your prayers for that, whatever happens, you can draw closer to God.

That’s not what I want. What I really want is… You’ve got second things first. And when you put second things first, you lose both first, knowing God intimately, and second things, God isn’t going to bless the way He wants to. But put first things first, and things are different. That led me, as I pondered this passage, that led me to the very simple thought that had escaped me for all of these years.

I’ve been a Christian since I was eight years old. First trusted Jesus when I was eight, at boys camp. Story of some others who are my age bracket, back in the old days. Sixty boys gathered around a campfire one night. Counselor gets up and says, Boys, look at the flames in that fire going twenty feet into the air. I’m an eight year old kid. Wow, that’s hot, boys, you have a choice to make. Oh, that’s a choice. Boys, you can trust Jesus, or burn in the fires of hell forever. And I remember thinking to myself, that’s a no brainer. So I trusted Jesus.

And all my life since then, as a follower of Jesus now, for these last 53 years, as a follower of Jesus for all these years, prayer has confused me, because I don’t think I had any significance attached to the phrase that I now have come to love. The phrase, the two word phrase, relational prayer as opposed to petitionary prayer.

Which comes first in your life, relating to God in prayer or asking for things from God in prayer? Both are legitimate, but which has a center place in your heart? Am I praying centrally to get more from God or am I praying centrally to get more of God? Relational prayer. What is that? A couple of years ago, pondering this passage, I thought, I think I have some idea how to relate to my wife. I have some idea how to relate to my kids, my friends, and my grandchildren. And I love relating to these people that I love. What does it mean to relate to God in prayer, as opposed to praying the way I’ve been praying for 50 some years, and my prayers perhaps are the way you’ve prayed for many years.

Dear Lord, I ask. And then we fill in the blank. I ask that. Is that a good prayer? Of course it is. But is there a deeper prayer? Dear Lord, I want to know you. And let me now have a conversation with my very best friend and my Heavenly Father. And so I came up with a little acronym that I call The PAPA Prayer.

P A P A. My Heavenly Father, The PAPA Prayer, putting relational prayer in the center of our lives. P A P A. First P. Just present yourself. Pray that the fig leaves are withered. Stand before God with no pretense, with no covering, with no hiding, no covering except the blood. Stand before God saying, God, here’s who I am. I’m in a bad mood. I’m really feeling cranky today. I’m so tired I could just want to sleep for ten hours and forget about ministry. If that’s who you are, why pretend you’re better than that? He knows. No pretense. Presenting yourself to God is the beginning of relational prayer. Folks, as I begin to learn my own understanding of the popular prayer this last year or two, I have often times spent up to an hour presenting myself to God, here’s what’s happening. Here’s who I am,

The next letter A. Attending. Who do I think I’m talking to? Who is this God? I’m talking to God, who are you? Are you a magic genie if I rub the lamp properly three times and get what I want? Or are you the sovereign God of the universe who has proven your love for me over and over again centrally in the cross? Can I come before you and say that what you want more than anything else is to draw me into your presence because you have this idea that my greatest blessing is to know you and I’ve differed with you about that. But I’m wrong. And you’re a God whose delight is to dwell with me. Who am I talking to? Attend to the God of the Bible, not the God of, I’ve come to understand through my history. 

Thirdly, P, purge myself. P A P. Present, attend, purge. God, what right now claims my affection more than you? What second thing has become first in my life? What have I loved more than I love you? Oh God, I’ve been hiding that. Get rid of these fig leaves so I can face my own brokenness and woundedness in your presence because then when I’m naked, when the fig leaves come off, then I experience your mercy. 

And then the last A, approach. God, what does it mean in Hebrews 4 that I can come boldly to the throne of grace? I can walk boldly right up into your presence to get what you’re most eager to give, which may be certain second thing blessings and I thank you when you give them to me and I’ll ask for them till I die but essentially what you want to give me is yourself.

The PAPA Prayer, learning to relate to God.

When The PAPA Prayer, when Relational Prayer – whatever form it takes, the PAPA is just one simple thought about it – when Relational Prayer takes center place in my life, then Petitionary Prayer falls in line with His will more often.

Let me close my thoughts by telling you two stories. See, I believe that, in the heart of every human being, because we bear the image of God, and because the Bible says that God has set eternity in our hearts, that you and I want more than this world can ever provide. The deepest desires of my heart go beyond the blessings I can articulate and enumerate. The deepest longing of my image bearing heart is to know God and to be in fellowship with the Trinity. But I don’t get in touch with that desire a lot. And because I’m not in touch with that desire, I go after lesser things with zeal, and call it petitionary prayer. Two stories to make my point. One happened fifty eight years ago.

I was three years old, raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, living until our home was built with my grandparents, my mom’s mother and dad. I’m a three year old boy and just forgive the juvenile-ity. Is that a word? Juvenile-ness of the story. I’m a three year old boy. Saturday afternoon. The memory is clear in my mind and I remember I needed to use the washroom, needed to go to the bathroom, and I was three years old. I remember thinking to myself, up until now, I’ve said, mommy. I need to go to the bathroom. But I thought, I’m a big boy. I’m gonna go into that room all by myself.

So I went in, closed the door, and I noticed what grown ups do, they locked it. So I turned a little half moon shaped silver lever and turned it so the bolt went into the door jamb and the door was locked. A few minutes later, I was ready to leave. I went to unlock the door, and it stuck. My little three year old arms couldn’t turn it, and I put both arms to work and couldn’t get it. What would happen to a three year old boy when he wants to get out of the bathroom and the door doesn’t yield to his efforts to open? I panicked. The thought that went through my mind was, I’m going to spend the rest of my life in this bathroom. In my panic and in my fear, I screamed. That’s what little boys do. Mommy! Daddy! Get me out of the bathroom! Mom and Dad heard me and they both ran up the stairs and I heard Mother say, Did you fall? Did you hurt your head? No, I can’t get out of the bathroom! The door’s locked! And Dad sized the situation up immediately and unbeknownst to me, ran outside of the garage, got the old wooden ladder and put it up against the brick, ivy covered walls of my grandparents home, the outside wall.

I’m watching the door, waiting for the door to open. The superhuman power of my deliverer. And I hear a noise behind me, and I look back at the window on the second floor. There’s my dad’s face. And with superhuman strength, he pulled open the window. And he climbed in. All is well. Dad’s here. And he came over and patted me on the head and smiled. And he went over, and with Superman type strength, he unlocked the door. And I said, Thanks, Dad! We Christians call it worship. I ran outside to play. We Christians call it the abundant life. Get me out of this bathroom! We Christians call it prayer. Petitionary prayer. What’s relational prayer look like? Rather than, these second things are going bad, change it! If you love me, I know you can. Matthew 21:22, whatever I believe. Do it!

The other story, and with this I’ll close, happened five or six years ago as my father was dying. He and mother were staying at an assisted living facility not too far from our home. Mother in an Alzheimer’s unit, locked behind doors so she wouldn’t wander out in the street and be killed. Dad’s mind was still good, his health was failing. And one night about midnight, I didn’t know Dad was within three or four weeks of death. I knew that death was coming. I had no idea it was this soon coming. The phone rang at midnight, and you know what it’s like to get a midnight phone call. It’s not what you want.

Phone rang, I picked it up. Hello? Larry, this is Dad! You gotta get over here right away! Things are not good! Please get over here right away! Dad, what’s happening? It’s just bad! Just get over here! Dad, is somebody there with you? Yeah, there’s an attendant here, but he’s of no use. And this was so uncharacteristic of my very gentle, godly, trusting father. His mind was sliding, and he was moving toward a terrible time in his life, when he was going to be miserable the last three weeks, and then go home. I didn’t know that at the time, of course, and I got the attendant on the phone. The attendant said this is Larry Junior? Yeah. Your dad really is doing fine. There’s nothing wrong. He just has gotten very upset. We’re not sure what. Everything’s fine. There’s no health problems. That’s causing pain. I’ve given him a sedative and he’ll be asleep within about five or ten minutes. If you want to stop by in the morning, that’ll be fine. Okay, thank you, sir. Put Dad back on the phone.

Dad, I’ll be there in the morning. The attendant says, You’re fine and you’ll be asleep in a few minutes. You’re no help! And he hung up the phone on me. I was heartbroken. Am I failing my father? What do I do? I went downstairs. Do I drive over there now? It’s a 20 minute drive. No problem. I was very willing to. He’d be asleep by the time I got there. The attendant, who I knew was a very good person, assured me Dad was fine. Should I just wait to go over in the morning? When I go over in the morning, how will I talk to my dad? How will I solve this relational rupture between my father and me as he nears death?

I was beside myself. I went downstairs, and I wept for probably 30 minutes. My prayers during those weeping moments were, God, what do I do to restore the relationship with my dad? Nothing matters more. I’m locked in this room, if you will, and I don’t know how to get out of this room. I don’t know how to unlock the door that will get me into the fullness of my relationship with my dad. Things are bad now. What should I do to be a good son? I love my dad. I want to be there for him. Unlock the door, God. Tell me what to do. Show me what I should do to get what I want the most. I really had what came close to a vision. As I was weeping and praying that rather demanding prayer because when you put petitionary prayer ahead of relational prayer, you demand rather than petition.

As I was demanding, calling it petitionary prayer, I had this semi-vision of my heavenly father showing His face at the bathroom window and coming into the dark room that I couldn’t get out of. But rather than doing what my earthly father had done 50 years previously, patting me on the head, opening the door, letting me go out, giving me clear instructions on how to reconcile with my father, my heavenly Father enabled me to put first things first.

In my little semi-vision, my heavenly Father came into the room, and rather than walking over to unlock the door, He sat on the floor and he said, Let’s chat. Let’s spend time together. Talk to me. I want to be close to you. My question this morning, I guess, is, which do you want more, to get out of the room or to sit with your Father?

What characterizes your prayer life the most? God, here are the second things that matter. Do them. If it’s your will, but it should be. Versus, God, I really do pray for all those things, and I will till the day I die because I really want them, and you’ve encouraged your children to come to you as a loving father and make known your request, and I’m going to do it with prayer and thanksgiving, but I still want to petition you in lots and lots of ways, but there’s something more central to my prayer life and central to my heart. God, I’d like to know you. God, here’s who I am in your presence right now. I’ve been pretending things are okay and they’re not. I’ve been hurting really badly and I’d like to share that with you and let you know who your child is. You already know. But as Lewis puts it, that prayer is taking part in the process of being known.

As I present myself before my father, as I attend, Who are you, Father? You’re a Father who lets my brother die in a plane crash. You’re a Father who gives me a moment of lucidity with my mother before her death. You’re a Father who answers my prayer for my son when he’s halfway across the world, and he comes to know you better in the middle of his crisis. God, I don’t quite get you when you say yes and when you say no, but I know you love me. Calvary forever settles that question. God, I’m talking to a Father, the best Father any son or daughter could ever imagine. Amen. God bless you. I’ve not wanted you, number one. I’ve wanted some other things, number one. That’s awful. Purging. But God, I’d like to sit with you wherever I am. If it’s a locked room of darkness, let me know you. If it’s a bright, sun-shiny day in the meadows and life is going well, let me know you. Relational prayer must precede petitionary prayer because it reflects God’s purpose. The desire of my heart and the desire of your heart to know God more than I want any second thing.

Amen.

Kep Crabb: That was Larry Crabb talking about his book, The PAPA Prayer. If you don’t have a copy of The PAPA Prayer, go to largerstory.com and get your copy of The PAPA Prayer today. Please subscribe to this channel if you like what you’ve heard. Join us each Tuesday for the rest of this year on Relational Spirituality, a Larger Story podcast. Thanks for being with us.

Listen to two fathers who want to know better what your prayer life for our kids and others can be – the power of prayer!

Bio: Roosevelt Leslie, is a graduate of Colorado Christian University with degrees in Sports science and Biblical studies. Married to Elizabeth Leslie from Lima, Peru in which they met at CCU (both from families of pastors in ministry), and have been married for 20 years with two sons Micah and Jordan.

Professionally Roosevelt is a health and wellness teacher and head basketball coach at Mullen High school. Mullen’s core principles are Faith in the presence of God, Respect for all persons, Inclusive Community, Concern for the poor, and the pursuit of Quality Education.

Roosevelt also by trade is a personal trainer, life coach, motivational speaker, and mentor. He enjoys spending his time helping youth non profit organizations in the community locally, nationally, and abroad in the capacities of education, sport, mental health, faith, and economic disparities which build people to become whole rounded individuals.

Show Note Links:   

The PAPA Prayer 

Transcript

Kep Crabb: Welcome everybody to Relational Spirituality. I’m your host today, Kep Crabb. The podcast of Larger Story where you get to belong, be known, and become who you’re supposed to be. I’m joined today by a good friend of mine. We were having breakfast a week or two ago and after having a really good conversation and talking about a bunch of different things I said, why don’t you join me on a podcast today? So I’m going to introduce a friend of mine, Roosevelt Leslie, who is joining us today. Rose, thanks for joining me today, my man.

Roosevelt Leslie: Oh, thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure for sure.

Kep Crabb: When we were chatting a week or two ago, whatever it was, we were having a conversation that I think where it was an iron sharpening iron conversation. I left that breakfast encouraged. One of the things that we were chatting about is some of the stuff you’re doing now to disciple younger kids; you’re a basketball coach, you do some things like that. You work at a local high school here in the Denver area. Tell me what that looks like on a day to day basis with you, bro.

Roosevelt Leslie: Like you said, I’m a coach, I’m a father. I always try to keep the main thing the main thing. What that looks like for me is the health and well being of that young person. How are they doing overall? Going through that checklist tells me how far I can go as far as the other things that are concerned in life, basketball or school. Just a general check in making sure they’re okay. If we can’t go past there, then that’s fine too. But just being a support system. I’m always a support and just a check in in general for our young men. That could look like a lot of different things.

Kep Crabb: You know, it’s really interesting when I hear you talk about that. I just, literally five minutes ago, got off the phone with a really good friend of mine who’s about 10 years younger than me. I was a little bit of a mentor to him when we were younger. We were talking about what it’s like to be a parent now. His kids are growing up. He’s got one in college now and one in high school. And my kids are out of college. You’re in that same stage with a kid getting out of high school and a kid in college and some of that kind of stuff, which is really fun, but we talked about, what does it mean to be a father?

We went into the whole fathering piece and the whole notion, you just said it there, which I think is really neat. You said, I’m available now. It can go a lot of different directions, but you know that with your kids and with these other kids that you’re mentoring, which is a bunch of them.

I know, because you and I talk about it all the time. I think you are just being present, being with them, being there. Talk a little bit about that, bro, because that’s something that I think you do really well, inviting people to know that, I’m here if you need me. 

Roosevelt Leslie: Sure. Within all this, the structured stuff that you have as a coach, a father, like you said, being available is very important. Let my guard down from time to time. I think that’s where vulnerability starts the depth of a relationship. And for me, I tell the kids they can ask me anything.

Kep Crabb: Say that again, you said vulnerability is about the depth of the relationship? 

Roosevelt Leslie: I think it creates the depth of the relationship. Kids want to tell somebody when they’re struggling. Sometimes there’s not that safe place to do so so they might hold it in and it might come out as anger or it might come out as many different emotions. I think every kid needs a safe place, a trusted adult in their lives, whether that’s a teacher, a coach, a parent.

For me it’s just trying to have pockets of time where I’m talking about stuff other than school, other than basketball, other than real life work. Giving the platform for the kids to talk about what’s on their mind. What’s on their hearts at that current moment? There might be failures that they had, there might be successes. I know my son and his friends in our school had homecoming this past weekend, so today I was just asking him, hey, you going on a date with anyone? Just being open.

Kep Crabb: It seems like too for some of these kids that you’re working with and certainly for your own two boys, you’ve got a real vision for them and what you’d love to see them be and what their potential really could be. You’ve poured into that. I think you’ve done that too with some of these other kids. Something that stands out as I think about your life a little bit, Rose, is that you’ve got guys on your right side who you’re mentoring, you’ve got guys on your left side who you’re being mentored by, so it’s really a two way deal.

I was talking with my friend just a little bit ago, how at some point you realize that you’re going to be on that mentoring side when you’re getting older, you become the old man of the group, and nothing’s wrong with that. I think I’m stepping into that a little bit now as I’m getting a little bit older here, but I still have a couple of older guys that pour into me. They’re 20 years my senior. I get a chance to ask them any question because they’re available. And then I’ve got guys younger than me, like yourself, who hopefully I get a chance to, but it’s amazing, bro, how much you pour into me as well. It’s such a two way street, even that breakfast we had, which is what inspired this podcast today.

I said, I have to have a conversation with you on the podcast. We’ve talked about some things like this. I think we did a webinar a few years ago or something like that. But, to have you talk about relational things and how you can cross generationally disciple and mentor some of these younger people that are in such need of a mentor of someone they can look up to, tell me as you think about your own kids.

One of the things we’re talking about this last quarter. We just got done talking about SoulTalk. I know you’ve read this book, SoulTalk. That kind of gives you some handles on how to have these kinds of conversations, beneath and thinking with a passion, thinking vision as you’re having a conversation and thinking curiously, what makes you tick, asking a lot of questions.

Now we’re moving into the book on prayer, PAPA Prayer. This is what you and I talked about last week at breakfast. How’s your prayer life right now?

Roosevelt Leslie: For me, to be honest, I can’t live without it. For me, that just looks like just a conversation with God when I wake up, when I go to sleep, and pretty much giving them everything that I have. I try not to wake up with any burdens and try not to go to sleep with any burdens. He gets a higher pay grade for me to give that stuff to Him. So I just say it like a conversation, I love it. I’m at a healthy place to just have conversations with God and our creator. I can’t do without it.

Kep Crabb: I sensed that the morning we were chatting and the way you were talking about prayer was very encouraging to me. Because, there’s not like a lot of young guys. It’s a confusing part of people’s lives. The prayer life is sometimes challenging.

What does it mean to have? I know that it’s not always super gratifying and satisfying. But what does it mean to have a relationship with the God of the universe who you’re talking to? I think that’s something that blows my mind that I actually have the Spirit of Jesus in me. It gives me access to the Father in a way that my prayers are actually being heard.

One of the things we talk about in the PAPA Prayer which we’re talking about this last quarter is what does it mean to present yourself in a way that says, I’m being honest where I’m at? I’m not in a good place or like you just said, you’re in a good place. I love hearing that. That’s awesome. And then to attend to where you are and then to purge what’s blocking you from knowing the Father better and then approach God, the Father, as your deepest desire and the doors that seem to open for the Holy Spirit to do His thing and maneuver is just supernatural is the only thing I can think of.

I saw that in your face the other day as we were talking because you were talking about praying for your boys as they’ve got some decisions coming up with colleges and different life decisions. And I asked, how do you pray for your boys nowadays? I can’t remember exactly what you said, but it was profound. Tell me; unpack that a little bit again.

Roosevelt Leslie: I don’t remember the specifics of that conversation. But I go about prayer with myself and my boys first, just presenting where I am with God, thanking Him for who He is, asking Him questions, basically guiding. I use prayer as a roadmap. I pray for wants and needs, but I also talk to God about the hard stuff as well. That way, when I’m not wanting to come to Him, I know that I can because the difficulties of life navigate me towards Him as well. 

For my boys specifically just praying for school their relationships that they basically will have the same yearning to talk to God as I do and that God brings through their circumstances in life and daily matters, school, sports, that He will remind them of who He is.

Kep Crabb: Wow. You’re just reminding me of the importance of good fathering. That’s not to diminish the importance of good mothering because I think kids need a good mother and a good father. But you’re leaning into that and you’re actually taking that role on with other people as well because that’s what coaches do. You’ve had coaches. If you can sit now and think, who are the two or three or four guys or people that have influenced your life, that you would say, this person walked with me at a time or this person in his or her life has impacted me in a way that is what you’re trying to do now. Could you think of those kinds of people?

Roosevelt Leslie: Yeah, for me, the people that are life changing, that have been right beside me, like you said earlier, are those people that are mentors. Maybe they weren’t my coaches or teachers, but they were life people that poured into me and asked me tough questions. They held me accountable, even people like yourself, meeting with you for breakfast and talking about our relationship with Christ. People like Brian Ford. Just life mentors. As we’re doing the work, we need to be replenished. Like you said, ask questions of people that know a little bit more than us. We can do the same thing with prayer too, talking to the Lord about this world that He created Himself.

Kep Crabb: As you say that, it makes me think that, it’s all so tied together and I think your time in the scriptures, your time in prayer, are intertwined completely. Your time with community when you have conversations that matter and your time in prayer, those are just intertwined. And so when you make this part of who you are, your prayer life, as you go through life and allow the Lord to work.

The big topic that we’ve been talking about, and Rose you’ve been part of this with me, and everybody who watches this podcast of mine knows that, what does it mean to be a Spirit led individual? A person that says, the Spirit of Jesus Christ in me, I want you to guide my life, help guide my decisions, help guide my relational tensions, help guide who I am as a person who represents Jesus by how I relate to others today. And that’s been the question that’s just been on my mind so much. I know prayer is such a huge part of that. I know Dad wrote this book of PAPA Prayer because he was confused about prayer. He felt his prayer life was oftentimes really weak. You dive into that and you explore and dive into that mystery.

But as you start to disciple these kids and to pray for them and you’re praying for me, what can we pray for you about, man? What are some things that you need prayer about, Rose?

Roosevelt Leslie: I think being a mentor a lot of times, you have a lot of high energy, and sometimes you don’t. I’m always looking for that consistency. You know, open hearts, open minds, the Spirit to prompt us to where those hearts and minds are, because sometimes we can go about our day and miss assignments. That’s a huge prayer; there’s a lot of people at schools and coaches like me who want to have an impact, but when you talk about the Spirit leading us, that’s one huge prayer that the Spirit will lead us to those vulnerable hearts. Kids that want to change course but don’t know how. People like myself, we’re ready. We’re ready to work the fields. 

Kep Crabb: Awesome. The work you’re doing, Rose, is just so good. I think you’re bringing a lot of pleasure to the Father as you’re doing that. It’s just fun, man. We’ve got to definitely grab another breakfast soon, my man. 

Roosevelt Leslie: For sure. 

Kep Crabb: I just really appreciate the time today. I just wanted to chat with you. We have these conversations and I get a chance to have a lot of them, but there’s just a few guys that I really enjoy just sitting and just hashing things out with, and you’re one of them and we’ve done that for a long time now and that’s been fun. And I hope it continues my brother.

Roosevelt Leslie: I appreciate you and the work that you’ve invested in my life and man, I love all your dad’s books. PAPA Prayer is definitely one on my shelf that I pull down from time to time, just to dial into God and seek His presence. So appreciate that.

Kep Crabb: The PAPA Prayer. If you guys don’t have it, get one today at a LargerStory.com. We’ve got plenty of them for you. We’d love to get you one. 

Roosevelt Leslie. Thanks for your time today, my man. 

Roosevelt Leslie: All right.