The Serving Second Podcast

Most leaders think pressure reveals weak people.

But what if pressure actually reveals weak team systems?

In this episode of the Serving Second Podcast, Dr. Toussaint Williams talks with Daria Rudnik about how second-chair leaders can build teams that click under pressure, navigate disruption, and stay human in the age of AI.

If you serve behind the leader, carry team tension, or feel responsible for helping others succeed, this conversation will give you practical tools to lead with clarity, not control.

The leader’s job is not to rescue the team.

The leader’s job is to facilitate the conversations that help the team rescue itself.

Daria makes the point clearly: outdated leadership says the leader must know everything, solve everything, and carry everything. Modern leadership requires something different. Leaders must create the conditions where the team can define purpose, build trust, make better decisions, share knowledge, and adapt together.

For second-chair leaders, this is a powerful shift. You do not need the top title to strengthen the team. You can help create the conversations, systems, and clarity that allow the team to perform.

Daria identifies five elements that make a team “click”:

1. Clear purpose
   A group does not become a team just because they report to the same manager. A team becomes a team when it has a shared purpose that cannot be accomplished by individual effort alone.
2. Linking connections
   Strong teams build trust internally and understand their connection to stakeholders outside the team.
3. Integrated work
   Teams need clarity around roles, norms, expectations, and how the work actually gets done.
4. Collaborative decisions
   Healthy teams know which decisions belong to the leader, which belong to individuals, which require group input, and which can be delegated or automated.
5. Knowledge sharing and feedback
   Teams must learn together, adapt together, and create feedback loops that help them improve over time.

Keywords

Leadership, Team Building, AI in Leadership, Global Work Experience, Authentic Leadership, Lifelong Learning, Team Dynamics, Second Chair Leadership

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

03:38 Building Strong Teams

06:46 Leadership in Stressful Situations

09:49 Navigating Challenges as a Woman in Leadership

12:55 Finding Your Authentic Leadership Style

15:59 Cultural Sensitivity in Leadership

18:45 The Role of AI in Leadership

21:44 The Clicking Framework

24:54 Final Thoughts and Resources

27:55 Recap

Resources

Clicking Book by Daria Rudnik - https://a.co/d/0anex6ak

Daria Rudnik on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariarudnik/

Daria Rudnik's Website - https://dariarudnik.com

What happens when a great employee gets promoted into leadership, but no one has prepared them to lead?

In this episode of the Serving Second Podcast, Dr. Toussaint Williams sits down with Rich Ashton, author of Growing Your Own: Common Sense Advice for Developing Leaders Within a Small Business, to talk about one of the biggest leadership gaps in small businesses and organizations: developing leaders from within.

Rich shares lessons from more than 45 years in leadership and ownership of eight businesses. He explains why hiring from the outside can threaten culture, why loyal employees still need leadership training, and why some people are more effective and fulfilled as strong number twos rather than chasing the top seat.

second-chair leadership, leadership development, small business leadership, growing leaders from within, Rich Ashton, Growing Your Own, Serving Second Podcast, leadership training, number two leader, executive leadership, internal leadership development, organizational culture, developing employees, relational leadership, leadership podcast

How small businesses hit a leadership ceiling as they grow

Why great employees are not automatically ready to lead

The risk of bringing in outside leaders who do not understand the culture

Why leaders should develop people to be themselves, not copies of the founder

The importance of being a strong number two

How transparency helps leaders have difficult conversations

Why trust is built before the hard conversation happens

How intellectual curiosity helps second-chair leaders keep growing

“Just because someone is a good employee and loyal to you does not mean they can take the next step.”

“If I couldn’t be the best number one, I could be the best number two.”

“The number one role can be isolating and lonely.”

“Trust is built through transparency.”

“If you are not pursuing intellectual curiosity, get on board with one.”

Second-chair leaders do not have to spend their whole career trying to become a copy of the person in the first chair. Rich makes it clear that leadership growth starts with self-awareness, integrity, and the willingness to develop your own leadership voice.

For some leaders, the goal is not always the top seat. Sometimes the greatest influence comes from becoming the trusted, capable, and grounded leader who helps the organization move forward from the second chair.

Guest: Rich Ashton
Book: Growing Your Own: Common Sense Advice for Developing Leaders Within a Small Business
Website: growingyourown.net
Email: [email protected]

00:00 Welcome to the Serving Second Podcast
01:12 Why growing businesses need more leaders
02:54 The leadership ceiling in small businesses
04:01 How Rich’s book started as leadership blogs
08:10 Developing leaders, not copies of yourself
09:54 Learning from mentors and relationships
12:42 The power of being the best number two
15:21 Growing your own leadership team
17:35 Integrity and relational leadership
20:03 Handling difficult leadership conversations
22:39 Trust, transparency, and decision-making
26:09 Intellectual curiosity as a leadership habit
28:28 How to connect with Rich Ashton

What if high performance did not have to come at the cost of people?

In this episode Toussaint sits down with Kathy Eastwood, CEO and creator of the E3 Leadership Code, to talk about what it really takes to lead from the second chair. Kathy brings years of experience as a Chief of Staff, Chief People Officer, COO, and leadership strategist. Her work focuses on helping leaders drive results while still building trust, engagement, and healthy team culture.

Kathy shares why the Chief of Staff role became one of her favorite leadership assignments. She describes it as the work of taking a leader’s vision and translating it into tangible results. That is exactly where many second-chair leaders thrive. They may not always be the public face of the vision, but they often carry the responsibility of making sure the vision lands, moves, and gets executed.

Leadership is not an either-or choice between results and people. Kathy challenges the idea that leaders must choose between delivering outcomes and caring for their teams. Her point is clear: you get better results by caring about your people.

Kathy explains that second-chair leaders often influence without direct authority. That means trust, clarity, and relationships matter more than control.

She introduces her “FEUD” framework: fear, ego, uncertainty, and doubt. These are the barriers that often keep people from buying in and moving forward.

One of the strongest moments in the episode is Kathy’s explanation of the Platinum Rule: treat people the way they want to be treated. This is a critical shift for leaders who assume their preferred communication style works for everyone.

Kathy also breaks down the E3 Leadership Code: Express, Engage, and Execute, powered by emotional qualities. She explains that strong leadership requires vision, people engagement, disciplined execution, and the emotional intelligence to connect with people in a real way.

Second-chair leaders are often asked to carry the weight between vision and execution. They hear the leader’s message more than once, clarify what is being communicated, interpret what is landing with the team, and help translate big ideas into practical action.

This episode is a reminder that the second chair is not a lesser seat. It is a strategic seat. It requires emotional intelligence, operational discipline, self-awareness, and the ability to influence people who may not report directly to you.

“Leadership is not either results or people. It is both.”

“You actually get your results by caring about your people.”

“Logic does not move people. Emotions do.”

“The number two role is taking a brilliant vision and translating it so it lands with each person.”

Learn more about Kathy Eastwood, the E3 Leadership Code, and her work at kathyeastwood.com or on LinkedIn.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Kathy's leadership journey

01:51 The role of Chief of Staff in driving change

03:05 Innate skills and leadership style

04:15 The value of vision and repetition

04:59 The importance of diverse skills in leadership

05:56 Clarity and communication in leadership

09:27 Understanding the feud: fear, ego, uncertainty, doubt

10:36 Building trust and influence without control

13:12 The platinum rule: treat others as they want to be treated

17:22 The E3 leadership code: express, engage, execute

23:20 The five-week bootcamp and ongoing development

24:50 Applicability for all organizational levels

27:02 Creating a high-performance culture

29:14 Connecting with Kathy and resources

Author Patty Hampton shares her journey of serving from the second seat, the importance of authenticity, influence, and listening in leadership, and how to thrive as a second chair leader. Discover practical insights on building trust, asking powerful questions, and leading with impact from a place of service.

Keywords

Leadership, Second Seat, Influence, Authenticity, Coaching, Trust, Influence, Leadership Development, Nonprofit, Transformation

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Patty Hampton's Journey

03:48 The Role of Second Seat Leaders

06:40 Influencing and Listening Skills

12:02 Building Trust and Authenticity

16:35 Navigating Authenticity and Approval

21:02 Communicating Effectively with Leaders

24:14 Embracing Authenticity in the Workplace

33:20 Transitioning to Solo Entrepreneurship

41:44 The Heart of Service: It's Not About You

Resources

Leading from the Second Seat by Patty Hampton - https://a.co/d/0hfWiCeW

Soyubono - I See You (YouTube Video) - Sawubona 

Patty Hampton's Website - https://www.noussolepartners.com/

Website - 

Email - [email protected]

In this episode of the Serving Second Podcast, Dr. Paul White shares his extensive experience in leadership and the importance of appreciation in the workplace. He discusses the five languages of appreciation, how they differ from traditional employee recognition, and the misconceptions surrounding appreciation. Dr. White emphasizes the need for authentic appreciation and provides practical steps for leaders to implement these concepts in their organizations, especially in hybrid work environments. He also shares transformative stories of organizations that have successfully integrated appreciation into their culture.

Keywords

leadership, appreciation, workplace culture, employee recognition, five languages of appreciation, Dr. Paul White, team dynamics, hybrid work, organizational behavior, employee engagement

Takeaways

Dr. White's journey from psychology to workplace appreciation.

The difference between employee recognition and authentic appreciation.

People want to be valued for who they are, not just their work.

The five languages of appreciation can enhance workplace relationships.

Misconceptions about appreciation can hinder its effectiveness.

Leaders should not delegate appreciation; it must be personal.

Remote work requires different strategies for showing appreciation.

Transformative stories highlight the impact of appreciation in organizations.

Small, consistent acts of appreciation can lead to significant change.

Understanding individual preferences for appreciation is crucial. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dr. Paul White's Journey

04:40 The Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace

07:44 Understanding Employee Recognition vs. Authentic Appreciation

10:54 Exploring the Five Languages of Appreciation

13:33 Misconceptions About Appreciation in the Workplace

16:56 The Role of Leaders in Fostering Appreciation

19:44 Implementing Appreciation in Hybrid Work Environments

22:38 Transformative Stories of Workplace Appreciation

25:42 Practical Steps for Leaders to Encourage Appreciation

28:45 Connecting with Dr. Paul White and Resources

35:40 Outro Video- Serving Second.mp4

Resources

The Five Languages of Appreciation  by Gary Chapman & Paul White - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802412706

Appreciation at Work Website - https://appreciationatwork.com

The Motivating by Appreciation Inventory (Assessment) - https://appreciationatwork.com/assessment

Dr. Paul White on YouTube - https://youtu.be/QU6VaK9Cx0o?si=nrm2MoTu7PmUqG_e

In this episode of the Serving Second Podcast, Dr. Paul White shares his extensive experience in leadership and the importance of appreciation in the workplace. He discusses the five languages of appreciation, how they differ from traditional employee recognition, and the misconceptions surrounding appreciation. Dr. White emphasizes the need for authentic appreciation and provides practical steps for leaders to implement these concepts in their organizations, especially in hybrid work environments. He also shares transformative stories of organizations that have successfully integrated appreciation into their culture.

Keywords

leadership, appreciation, workplace culture, employee recognition, five languages of appreciation, Dr. Paul White, team dynamics, hybrid work, organizational behavior, employee engagement

Takeaways

Dr. White's journey from psychology to workplace appreciation.

The difference between employee recognition and authentic appreciation.

People want to be valued for who they are, not just their work.

The five languages of appreciation can enhance workplace relationships.

Misconceptions about appreciation can hinder its effectiveness.

Leaders should not delegate appreciation; it must be personal.

Remote work requires different strategies for showing appreciation.

Transformative stories highlight the impact of appreciation in organizations.

Small, consistent acts of appreciation can lead to significant change.

Understanding individual preferences for appreciation is crucial. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dr. Paul White's Journey

04:40 The Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace

07:44 Understanding Employee Recognition vs. Authentic Appreciation

10:54 Exploring the Five Languages of Appreciation

13:33 Misconceptions About Appreciation in the Workplace

16:56 The Role of Leaders in Fostering Appreciation

19:44 Implementing Appreciation in Hybrid Work Environments

22:38 Transformative Stories of Workplace Appreciation

25:42 Practical Steps for Leaders to Encourage Appreciation

28:45 Connecting with Dr. Paul White and Resources

35:40 Outro Video- Serving Second.mp4

Resources

The Five Languages of Appreciation  by Gary Chapman & Paul White - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802412706

Appreciation at Work Website - https://appreciationatwork.com

The Motivating by Appreciation Inventory (Assessment) - https://appreciationatwork.com/assessment

Dr. Paul White on YouTube - https://youtu.be/QU6VaK9Cx0o?si=nrm2MoTu7PmUqG_e

Your story is your CHEATCODE!!!

Toussaint sits down with Kirk Nugent for a powerful conversation on content, calling, service, and stewardship. Kirk is a digital strategist, media leader, missionary, coach, and content creator who helps people use their voice with clarity and purpose.

They go deeper than cameras, thumbnails, and algorithms. Kirk explains why content is not about chasing attention. It is about serving people at scale. He shares how your story, including your flaws, fears, struggles, and lived experience, can become the very thing God uses to help someone else.

Toussaint & Kirk also discuss the unique responsibility of second-chair leaders, assistants, associates, vice presidents, and behind-the-scenes servants. The message is clear: you do not have to be first to have impact. You do not have to be perfect to be useful. And you do not have to wait until everything is polished before you start serving.

Kirk explains that the parts of your life you may want to hide are often the very parts that qualify you to serve others. Your quirks, challenges, and imperfections can help people see themselves in your journey.

Instead of seeing video and social media as vanity tools, Kirk frames them as stewardship. One message can serve one person in a room, or it can serve thousands online.

Authenticity matters more in the age of AI. Kirk argues that AI has created a “trust recession.” People are more skeptical of polished content, which makes authentic human presence even more valuable. Second-chair leadership is still leadership.

The episode connects content creation with the broader Serving Second mission. Even if you are not the lead voice in your organization, you still have a voice that can serve, teach, encourage, and equip others. You are unfairly qualified to serve an earlier version of yourself.

Kirk gives one of the strongest takeaways of the episode: the best person you can serve may be someone who is where you used to be.

“Don’t seek to go viral. Seek to serve.”

“Your story is your cheat code.”

“You are unfairly qualified to serve an earlier version of you.”

“We are all second because we serve the One.”

“God is still writing in your story.”

Visit Kirk Nugent online at kirkarnugent.com to learn more about his coaching, challenges, and resources.

Subscribe to the Serving Second Podcast and share this episode with someone who knows they have something to say, but has been waiting for everything to be perfect.

And remember:

The mission I serve is greater than my title.

SUBSCRIBE FOR MORE: https://youtube.com/@servingsecond?si=YZqdXwZRtVIgebuy

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ABOUT THE SERVING SECOND PODCAST

Serving Second is where we celebrate the unsung heroes of leadership, the associates, the VPs, the chiefs of staff, the right hands, the steady ones who make the mission move.

Join Dr. Toussaint Williams and guests for real conversations about the wins, the weight, and the behind-the-scenes reality of leading without being the headlines... to help second-chair leaders create first-place outcomes.

New episodes weekly. Follow, subscribe, and turn on notifications so you do not miss what’s next.

In this episode, Toussaint interviews Ron Reich, a seasoned leadership development expert. They discuss Ron's journey into leadership, the importance of making a difference in second chair roles, and the challenges faced in leadership development. Ron emphasizes the significance of self-awareness, understanding different personalities, and the value of support staff in organizations. The conversation highlights the need for continuous improvement and the impact of effective coaching without criticism.

Keywords

leadership development, second chair roles, coaching, personality assessments, continuous improvement, making a difference, emotional intelligence, team dynamics, support staff, self-awareness

Takeaways

One of the most important parts of my career is the ability to make a difference.

You never know when you're making a difference in someone's life.

Stay out of the results business and focus on what you can control.

Leadership development impacts not just professional lives but personal lives too.

Consistency in leadership training is crucial for team success.

Understanding different personalities leads to better team dynamics.

Administering personality assessments can enhance workplace communication.

Recognizing the value of support staff is essential for organizational success.

Continuous improvement is key to effective leadership.

Self-awareness is critical for making better choices in career and personal life.

Summary

In this inspiring interview, Savio P. Clemente shares his profound journey through cancer, leadership, and resilience. Discover practical strategies for leading with authenticity, managing disruptions, and cultivating adaptive resilience to thrive beyond adversity.

Keywords

leadership, resilience, cancer journey, authenticity, adaptive resilience, mental health, self-regulation, healing, vulnerability, leadership framework

Key  topics

Leadership after disruption

The adaptive resilience leadership framework

The role of authenticity in leadership

Managing health crises and emotional resilience

Practical self-regulation and healing strategies

Action  items

Practice self-regulation techniques daily

Listen to your body's signals and trust them

Use the Aloha Reboot to reconnect with your inner self

Cultivate authenticity and vulnerability in leadership

Leverage AI tools for health and decision-making

Sound bites

"Authenticity is the key to true leadership"

"Listen to your body and trust its signals"

"Silence and stillness reveal your true self"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

02:40 Introduction & Journey to Leadership Clarity

05:07 The Impact of Personal Health Crises

07:45 Navigating Cancer Diagnosis and Relapse

08:44 Cancer  Fight - Stage 3

09:28 Cancer Relapse - 10 years later

11:22 Finding Purpose in Adversity

17:17 Empowerment Through Knowledge and Self-Regulation

18:51 Navigating Disruptions: Self-Regulation and Participation

19:31 Life After Crisis: Performance Under Pressure

20:59 Psychological Distancing: Finding Clarity in Chaos

22:14 Silence and Stillness: The Power of Reflection

23:41 Adaptive Resilience: Flexibility in Adversity

25:00 Spiritual Exile: The Journey of Healing

26:04 Finding Peace: Slowing Down in a Fast-Paced World

27:24 Aloha Reboot: Embracing Your Inner Self

29:59 Humility in Leadership: Authenticity Over Performance

33:07 Leading with Clarity: Embracing Vulnerability

39:20 Outro Video- Serving Second.mp4

Resources

Savio Clemente's TEDx Talk: Seven Minutes to Wellness - https://youtu.be/J-DHtD2n0qo?si=JA-gX3NSmIcL8RKw

Adaptive Resilience Leadership Framework - https://example.com/framework

Connect with Savio

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/saviopclemente

Website - https://www.saviopclemente.com/

Ever wondered what it really takes to pull a seamless church service together?

Spoiler alert — it’s way more than just creating a runsheet! In this episode, I sit down with the worship manager, Danita Jones, to reveal the behind-the-scenes magic that keeps the spiritual flow smooth, timely, and impactful. Trust me, this is the secret sauce every young adult professional in church leadership or event planning needs in their back pocket.

• How Danita's journey from theater to church leadership revolutionized her approach to worship management
• The superhero role of a worship manager, compared to air traffic control—think controlling hundreds of moving parts every single week
• The story behind the infamous church timer — and why time management isn’t just about clocks, but about creating meaningful moments
• Balancing family, life, and a high-stakes church role without losing your mind (or your joy)

00:00 - Dive into the world of worship management
00:24 - Introducing Danita Jones: worship director, mama, and all-around hero
00:38 - The little things that put a smile on your face—finding joy in the simple wins
01:25 - The importance of community and family—balancing motherhood and ministry
02:10 - The story behind her "crew" and her nearly 23-year marriage
04:23 - How worship management became her rhythm
05:14 - Demystifying the role of a worship manager—air traffic controller in the sky of church flow
06:12 - Building the perfect run sheet based on the pastor’s sermon length and service goals
08:53 - The chaos of tech mishaps
10:06 - Navigating a live service
12:05 - The story that ignited her passion: experiencing a time-managed service
14:11 - How the infamous church timer works
15:34 - Resetting the service flow
16:54 - From Nashville to Ohio: how one church trip changed her perspective on worship and time
17:20 - The story that made her realize every church needs a worship manager
20:15 - Tips and tricks: how to orchestrate services that inspire, move, and leave people on fire for God

• Danita Jones on LinkedIn — connect with her for more wisdom
• Oakwood University Church — the church where she’s dear to her craft

• Breath of Life TV
• Danita's Website