The Shape of Dialogue

Dr Melissa Derby is a Senior Lecturer teaching early literacy and human development at the University of Waikato's Tauranga campus and online. Melissa completed her PhD at the University of Canterbury, and her study was part of A Better Start National Science Challenge. Her primary area of research is early literacy, and in particular, in exploring the role of whānau in fostering foundational preliteracy skills. More generally, she has an interest in Māori education and success. Melissa's scholarship has been recognised through a range of awards, including a Fulbright-Ngā Pae o te Māramatanga Graduate Award, a SAGE Young Writer's Award, a University of Waikato Early Career Research Award, and two research awards from the Royal Society of New Zealand. She is the Director of the Early Years Research Centre at the University of Waikato, and co-Editor of the New Zealand Association for Research in Education's blog, Ipu Kererū. Melissa is on the Editorial Board for the journal of the International Literacy Association, The Reading Teacher. In New Zealand, she sits on a number of advisory groups for education and literacy, including the cabinet-appointed Ministerial Advisory Group advising the Minister of Education. Melissa is on the Board of Trustees at Matua School in Tauranga, New Zealand and the Board of Directors for Inspired Kindergartens in Tauranga, New Zealand.

https://profiles.waikato.ac.nz/melissa.derby

Jill Ovens is a New Zealand trade unionist, politician, and women's rights advocate. She is the founder, co-leader and National Secretary of the Women's Rights Party.

Before founding the Women's Rights Party, Jill Ovens was co-leader of the Alliance Party.

In 2006, she resigned from the Alliance party. After being elected the northern secretary of the Service & Food Workers Union, she joined the Labour Party. She was a former Auckland/Northland regional representative on the Labour Party's Council.

In 2023, Ovens resigned from the Labour Party as women's rights and voices were being subjugated by trans ideology activists within the Labour Party's leadership. In response, she founded the Women's Rights Party to highlight the loss of women's rights due to men claiming to be women trumping the hard-won civil rights of women.

https://womensrightsparty.nz

https://x.com/WRP_NZ

A review of the protections in the Human Rights Act 1993 for people who are transgender, people who are non-binary and people with innate variations of sex characteristics

https://www.lawcom.govt.nz/our-work/ia-tangata/

Do women have rights? with Sall Grover - The Shape of Dialogue #316

https://youtu.be/o6TBckVgZLI?si=IQqbe6eR0W1FjfzS

Dr James Kierstead is a Research Fellow with the Initiative and his main focus will be on higher education policy, including academic freedom.

James holds a BA in Classics from Oxford, an MA in Ancient History from the University of London, an MA in Political Science from Stanford, and a PhD in Classics from Stanford.

He is also the co-host (with Michael Johnston) of Free Kiwis!, a podcast dedicated to free speech in a New Zealand context.

X at @Kleisthenes2.

https://www.youtube.com/@Cleisthenes2/videos

gigglecrowdfund.com

Sall's X handle - @salltweets

A male named Roxy Tickle, who identifies as a woman, has brought a human rights claim against Sall Grover for not permitting him to use her female-only networking app, Giggle. He initially filed the complaint last year, but withdrew, due to funding reasons. He has now filed again, way out of time and is claiming that by excluding him, Sall is discriminating against him on the basis of his gender identity, which is a protected attribute under the Sex Discrimination Act.

However, Sall actually hasn’t discriminated against him on the basis of gender identity at all, but on the basis of his sex which is also a protected attribute under the Act and in relation to which differential treatment between men and women is not discriminatory where this is necessary to protect or achieve equality for women.

Indeed the Sex Discrimination Act was enacted in 1984 primarily to give effect to the international Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women(CEDAW), by addressing discrimination and inequality women faced on the basis of sex, for example in relation to biological and reproductive capacities like pregnancy and family responsibilities, in employment, education, facilities and services, and so on.

But then, Julia Gillard’s government made amendments to the Act in 2013, making it unlawful to discriminate against a person on the basis of gender identity. The new amendments also removed the biological definitions of man and woman, and so woman can now include a biological male who has a female gender identity. Sex, and women’s rights and protections on the basis of sex, therefore become meaningless, as does the original intention of the Act. This has left us with a clear conflict between the sex-based rights of women and the rights of those claiming a gender identity.

Not only will this case be the first opportunity we’ve had to resolve this conflict and to test whether sex is still a protected attribute in Australia, but because the Sex Discrimination Act was created pursuant to constitutional powers to legislate regarding international laws, and there is arguably no basis for gender identity protections under international law and certainly not under the Convention the Act was originally meant to give effect to, there is an argument to be made that the current gender identity protections are unconstitutional.

This is huge, because if laws that undermine sex-based rights, such as gender identity protections, are found to be unconstitutional or otherwise unlawful, this could render invalid laws in every state giving effect to protections for gender identity, as these are subsidiary to federal laws. As a result, the sex-based protections for women and girls would be re-instated when it comes to their rights to female-only spaces, services, sports and so on.

It is all a bit complicated, but essentially, there has been a conflict between anti-discrimination protections for sex and gender identity since the Sex Discrimination Act was amended in 2013. This case is the first opportunity we’ve had to resolve this conflict and to test whether sex is still a protected attribute in Australia. Parliament has arguably acted outside its constitutional powers in legislating gender identity as a protected characteristic in the Sex Discrimination Act which was designed to protect against sex discrimination, as protections for gender identity have no basis in CEDAW or other international instruments.

Tickle asked for an extension of time to bring his case against Sall. Sall’s team have asked Tickle to prove that he has the funds to bring his case (competency issue).

Tickle asked for a cost capping order, so that if he loses, there will be a cap on legal costs that he’ll be ordered to cover.

First two issues will be dealt at next hearing on 28 April. Sall’s team have asked that the cost capping be dealt with separately. The reason for this is that her team will be challenging the constitutional validity of gender identity as a protected characteristic under the Sex Discrimination Act, which means all the Attorney Generals of Australia will need to be notified of the proceedings and be given the opportunity to make submissions and possibly even attend the hearing and give evidence. In other words, this case has the potential to be monumental in terms of size and significance.

Justice Bromwich has granted leave for Tickle to to bring his case against Sall personally and Giggle for Girls Pty Ltd. Cost capping has been awarded in the sum of $50,000, details of which will be posted soon. The trial date has now been set for April 9, 2024.

Importance of female-only spaces

The importance of single-sex spaces is universally recognised. The fact that we even have them acknowledges the biological sex differences between men and women, women’s inherent physical vulnerability relative to men, and the need to protect women’s rights, safety and privacy. Allowing men to self-identify as women and access women-only spaces, services and activities, has resulted in countless stories of harm all around the world, including in Australia. This ranges from women being excluded from their own sports, to women being sexually attacked in female-only spaces like prisons, refuges and hospital wards, to women being subjected to abuse, loss of employment and legal action for refusing to accept men can be women.

Women and girls have a right to feel safe and to be safe in services, facilities and activities that are intentionally dedicated to them.

Girls should be able to use intimate spaces like bathrooms in school without having to share these with male peers. Women who are detained in a vulnerable environments like a prison should not be locked up with male rapists, like is currently happening in Victoria. Women who are victims of male violence should be able to access a women’s refuge service without having to share these with men claiming to be women. Women and girls of all ages and ability should be able to fairly and safely participate in female-only sport. All organisations need to be legally allowed to say “no” to any male trying to access a part of society set aside for women and girls without the threat of legal action.

Women fought long and for sex-based rights and protections and these must not be displaced by men self-declaring a gender identity, which will then allow them to enter women’s spaces and services that they would have previously been excluded from on the basis of sex.

A discussion about liberty, free speech and threats to liberal societies with British journalist and founder of the Free Speech Union, Toby Young.

http://www.tobyyoung.co.uk

https://www.spectator.co.uk/writer/toby-young/

https://x.com/toadmeister

https://freespeechunion.org

https://dailysceptic.org

Doc Edge & The UnRedacted with Alex Lee - The Shape of Dialogue Podcast #18

https://youtu.be/uC0IYi5oYaM

Music - Bach Mass in B Minor conducted by John Eliot Gardiner

https://open.spotify.com/album/3HdmIB3Wzcd7bFDdsgaIbp?si=dRMNyRieTLCTHMJfSBZ7mA

https://peterboghossian.com

https://linktr.ee/peterboghossian

Philosopher

Dr. Peter Boghossian's main focus is bringing the tools of professional philosophers to people in a wide variety of contexts. Peter has a teaching pedigree spanning more than 25 years and 30 thousand students - in prisons, hospitals, public and private schools, seminaries, universities, Fortune 100 companies, and small businesses. His fundamental objective is to teach people how to think through what often seem to be intractable problems.

Peter's primary research areas are critical thinking and moral reasoning. His doctoral research studies, funded by the State of Oregon and supported by the Oregon Department of Corrections, consisted of using the Socratic method to help prison inmates to increase their critical thinking and moral reasoning abilities and to increase their desistance to criminal behavior.

Author

Peter's publications can be found in The New York Times, Time Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, Areo, The American Mind, The Clearing House, Corrections Today, CounterPunch, Education Policy Analysis, Educational Philosophy and Theory, Essays in Philosophy, Federal Probation Journal, Free Inquiry, Informal Logic, Inside Higher Ed, Journal of Correctional Education, Journal of Philosophy of Education, The Los Angeles Times, Motherboard, Quillette, New Discourses, National Review, New Statesman, Offender Programs Report, The Philosophers’ Magazine, Philosophy's Future, The Radical Academy, Radical Pedagogy, Scientific American, Skeptic, Skeptical Inquirer, The Spectator, Teaching Philosophy, Truthout, and USA Today.

Professional

Peter is currently a Founding Faculty Fellow at the University of Austin and the Director of National Progress Alliance. He was a Councilman for the State of Oregon (LSTA), the Chairperson of the Prison Advisory Committee for Columbia River Correctional Institution, wrote national philosophy curricula for the University of Phoenix, a research fellow for the National Center for Teaching and Learning, a full-time faculty member in the department of philosophy at Portland State University, an Affiliate Research Assistant Professor at Oregon Health Sciences University in the Department of General Internal Medicine, an advisor for Counterweight, a Senior Fellow at Hungary’s Mathias Corvinus Collegium, a national speaker for the Center for Inquiry and an international speaker for the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science.

Music - Bach Mass in B Minor conducted by John Eliot Gardiner

https://open.spotify.com/album/3HdmIB3Wzcd7bFDdsgaIbp?si=dRMNyRieTLCTHMJfSBZ7mA

Michael Johnston

https://www.nzinitiative.org.nz/about-us/our-people/dr-michael-johnston/

Jonathan Ayling

https://www.fsu.nz/meet_the_team

The role of Universities in supporting freedom of speech

The discussion on the role of universities in supporting freedom of speech held at Te Herenga Waka — Victoria University of Wellington in May 2024. Watch the full event here.

https://youtu.be/T3rZQ7PxuUI?si=Afw28b_dBJU77UTr

https://www.fsu.nz

Jonathan Ayling is Chief Executive of theFree Speech Union. Jonathan has worked in Wellington, the New Zealand capital, for 8 years across roles as a Beehive staffer, senior political advisor, and in the NGO sector. In addition to leading the work at the Free Speech Union, he and his wife own a vineyard in the Wairarapa.

https://www.jonathanrauch.com

Jonathan Rauch was brought to New Zealand by the Free Speech Union for a speaking tour in May 2025. See here for more information about the Free Speech Union - https://www.fsu.nz

Jonathan Rauch is a highly acclaimed American journalist and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. He has written eight books, including the renowned Kindly Inquisitors, which defends free speech and robust criticism, even when it's racist, sexist and highly offensive. Jonathan writes for many of the world's leading publications, including the New York Times, The Atlantic and The Wall Street Journal, with articles on public policy, culture, and government. He has received many awards for his writing, including the National Magazine Award, the equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize.

Jonathan Rauch's books

The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth - https://a.co/d/0Gi0pYI

Kindly Inquisitors: The New Attacks on Free Thought - https://a.co/d/2uZ25eM

All of his books

https://www.amazon.com/stores/Jonathan-Rauch/author/B001HOP3SC?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

Helen Joyce is a journalist and was a staff writer for The Economist between 2005 and 2022. Helen held various leading positions at The Economist, including education editor, Brazil correspondent, International editor, Finance editor and Britain editor.

Helen's first book, "Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality," was published by OneWorld in July 2021. It was reissued in 2023 under the new title "Trans: Gender Identity and the New Battle for Women's Rights."

"Trans" was an immediate bestseller and was named by the Times, Spectator and Observer as one of their books of 2021.

Helen now campaigns for women's rights and works with the start-up human-rights organisation Sex Matters, which campaigns for clarity about the two sexes, male and female, in law and in life.

https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/

https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/trans-news-and-reviews/

https://www.amazon.com.au/TRANS-When-Ideology-Meets-Reality/dp/0861540492

https://sex-matters.org/

Music - Bach Mass in B Minor conducted by John Eliot Gardiner

https://open.spotify.com/album/3HdmIB3Wzcd7bFDdsgaIbp?si=dRMNyRieTLCTHMJfSBZ7mA