The Sheldrake Vernon Dialogues

Why is beauty so important to scientists, even those without religious convictions? And is that in some way connected to the failure of New Atheism, which began two decades ago this year? Rupert’s two books on science and spiritual practices inform the conversation, as does research by Guy Hayward, Linda Woodhead, Simon Conway Morris, Micheal Levin and a team led by Fraser Watts. Why is providence such a powerful intuition? And might related matters have anything to do with the extraordinary power of Large Language Models?

0:00 V: Spiritual practice trials
4:27 S: Singing together
7:54 V: Music and enchantment
10:00 V: New Atheism and providence
12:46 S: Providence or blind chance?
14:22 V: Scientists and beauty
16:47 S: Gratuitous beauty in nature
20:22 V: Evolution as search engine
22:20 S: Platonism and morphic resonance
26:00 V: Why are LLMs so good?
30:20 S: Language conveys experience
31:59 V: Closing thanks

An ancient intuition is that plants have souls and even participate in the life of God by virtue of being alive. But what sense can be made of that today? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon consider the Neoplatonic understanding that all living creatures, and perhaps all self-organising things, have a soul as part of their existence. But what does this imply about plant perception, plant intelligence, and plant awareness? Why do plants so inspire artists, mystics, and scientists - as well as worldwide activities such as the cut flower industry? Rupert has spend decades both studying plants and profoundly enjoying their presence in his life. Mark feels the inspiration that plants offer the contemplative life. Considering the souls of plants is quite as generative of insights and questions as plants are themselves generative of beautiful forms of life.

Does art need to have a sacred dimension to be art at all? What are the sources of inspiration? In this dialogue, which is the 102nd in the series, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon, explore how meaning and beauty, truth and connection might be manifested in the arts. What is the role of reverence and empathy, place and intelligence? Conversely, what is lost when art loses a reference beyond the human and mechanical world? If art energizes the human spirit, encourages awareness, and revitalises symbols, how might it speak to us today of what it is be human and to live in a more than human world? 

The conversation took place in The Garrison Chapel, Chelsea, and was organised by The King’s Foundation. 

Chapters 

0:00 V: Welcome, cave art and the meaning of sympathy 

6:09 R: Museums as temples, art stripped of the sacred 

13:38 V: A deconsecrated chapel, the Vatican's galleries and the spectator 

21:19 R: Cultural breaks and continuity, from Egypt to India 

24:56 V: One divine source, many forms; Dante and iconoclasm 

29:24 R: Keith Critchlow, geometry and the forms of nature 

33:23 V: Beauty's call, prayer at Lascaux, Piero della Francesca and Blake 

38:37 R: Making by hand, from stone tools to museums of bones 

42:22 V: Closing remarks 

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/yU1CQIE4T10
Many people report apparitions of their loved ones after death, and even of loved dogs and cats. But how do these after-death communications align with the Christian teaching of the resurrection of the body? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore the evidence for the post-mortem appearances of humans and non-humans, and ask how it fits with the accounts of Jesus’s resurrection in the Bible. The appearance of Jesus to the disciples and others is often taken as evidence of a physical revival of Jesus after his crucifixion but a subtler, arguably more compelling interpretation is that after-death communications are relatively common - which is the experience the disciples had. Then, the resurrection of Jesus shows something about the nature of the spiritual body,  as Saint Paul calls the body that awaits us. But what to make of the empty tomb that had contained the body of Jesus and the variety of activities Jesus reportedly engaged in after his resurrection, and what this might mean for existence after death and the presence of other worlds that are also here and now?

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/274OwKLCsFM

Support the show on Substack: https://rupertsheldrake.substack.com

Saints and genii locorum, or spirits of place, are the names in various wisdom traditions given to guardian beings who protect, assist and inspire. So what does it mean to call on these sacred beings? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the role of patron saints who are associated with churches and shrines, days and names. What powers might figures from Saint Mary to Saint Nicolas bring to us? How do we call upon them and how is their presence understood? Rupert and Mark explore the ways in which saints connect heaven and earth in individual lives, particular places and at various times of the year.

Support the podcast by subscribing on Substack
https://rupertsheldrake.substack.com

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/qbRW_iehUA0

The mood has shifted. Subjects that were once taboo - like God - are now discussed openly. So if a new theism is abroad, what might it bring? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask why individuals engaged in pursuits from cultural critique to theoretical biology are now actively interested in traditions such as Christianity and Platonism. What is new about this turn and what is old? What does it mean in terms of understanding our humanity, the sciences and wider cosmology? And how can these new currents be best assessed and discerned?

------
Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University, as a Fellow of Clare College, he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society, he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells, and together with Philip Rubery discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport. In India, he was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics, where he helped develop new cropping systems now widely used by farmers. He is the author of more than 100 papers in peer-reviewed journals and his research contributions have been widely recognized by the academic community, earning him a notable h-index for numerous citations.  On ResearchGate his Research Interest Score puts him among the top 4% of scientists.

https://www.sheldrake.org/about-rupert-sheldrake?svd=98

------
Dr Mark Vernon is a psychotherapist and writer with a rich academic background in physics, theology, and philosophy. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.

Mark's latest book is...
Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination
https://www.markvernon.com/books/awake-william-blake-and-the-power-of-the-imagination

The imagination is often regarded as a valuable but fanciful capacity. But what if imagination were not an optional extra, or even the possession of human beings alone, but a fundamental feature of reality? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon draw on the ideas of William Blake to explore Blake’s insistence that “nature is imagination itself!”. They discuss how the understanding of the imagination has contracted in recent times, though also how modern science is a remarkable exercise in the imagination. They consider matters from how the Platonic notion of ideas relates to cosmic and evolutionary novelty, to whether angels can be said to be imaginative and creative. Mark’s new book is Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination.

You may agree that the so-called hard problem of consciousness exposes the deep inadequacies of a materialist worldview. But the alternatives - various forms of panpsychism, panentheism and idealism - raise rich and fascinating questions too. In this episode of The Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore the leading edge of consciousness research, with Rupert just back from The Science of Consciousness Conference 2025 in Barcelona. They discuss the impact of Indian researchers in consciousness and the proposals of microchip inventor, Federico Faggin. They consider trainings in extra-ocular vision and questions thrown up by the hit podcast series, The Telepathy Tapes. One thing is clear: when the materialist paradigm passes, the science of consciousness will have only just begun.

The conviction that the natural world is obedient, adhering to laws, is a widespread assumption of modern science. But where did this idea originate and what beliefs does it imply? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the impact on science of the Elizabethan lawyer, Francis Bacon. His New Instrument of Thought, or Novum Organum, put laws at the centre of science and was intended as an upgrade on assumptions developed by Aristotle. But does the existence of mind-like laws of nature, somehow acting on otherwise mindless matter, even make sense? What difference is made by insights subsequent to Baconian philosophy, such as the discovery of evolution or the sense that the natural world is not machine-like but behaves like an organism? Could the laws of nature be more like habits? And what about the existence of miracles, the purposes of organisms, and the extraordinary fecundity of creativity?

Much of the modern world has become uncoupled from the transcendent in a cultural experiment Nietzsche called the death of God. But might this spiritual crisis prove to be a time of rebirth? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, recorded live at an event organised by the Temenos Academy, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the evolution of wisdom traditions from west and east alongside the great modern enterprise called science and its continuing development. As the materialist, progressive ideology that has dominated the sciences for two centuries wanes, and as scientific studies show that religious and spiritual practices have major benefits for physical and mental health, what insights might we cultivate, as we live in and through these times?