From Krista:

Michael Pollan’s latest book, A World Appears, is an exploration — with scientists and journalists and technologists and spiritual teachers — of what consciousness is, and is not, or might be: from the plants which have always fascinated him, to the new technologies which we are marveling at and fearing in equal measure. Do sentience, feeling, thought, or a sense of self amount to consciousness? Does it emerge from inside us? Or is it a force beyond us, in which we partake? 

Before a rapt gathering in New York City, we explored where Michael has come on these questions and others. The word “mystery” kept landing the longer we spoke, and I brought some intriguing (and somewhat mysterious) conversations I’ve been having with Anthropic’s Claude briefly near the end. I’m delighted to bring you into that room with us now.

This episode was produced by Chris Heagle, Zack Rose, Carla Zanoni, Andrea Prevost, Daryl Chen, and Ron Passaro. 

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Find an excellent transcript of this show, edited by humans, on our show page.

Michael Pollan is the author of culture-shaping books, including The Botany of Desire, The Omnivore's Dilemma, and How to Change Your Mind. His new book is A World Appears: A Journey into Consciousness. He is the John S. and James L. Knight Professor of Journalism at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism and the director of the Knight Program in Science and Environmental Journalism. In 2020, he co-founded the UC Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics with Dacher Keltner and others. 

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From Krista:

On April 4, 1967, Martin Luther King Jr. gave a speech at Riverside Church in New York City called “A Time to Break Silence.” This is often referred to as his “Beyond Vietnam” Speech. His own allies criticized it as a risky departure from a focus on civil rights. But Dr. King had never seen his calling confined to those two words. The Vietnam War needed to end, he believed, and he needed to say that plain. And in the waging of this war — and all of its consequences for people at home, especially the poor — he saw an underlying crisis that threatened the very soul of our nation.

On that same date this year, the 59th anniversary of this speech, hundreds gathered again at Riverside for reflection, song, and a reading of portions of the speech. It was drafted by Dr. King’s friend and comrade Vincent Harding, a beloved former On Being guest, and many of his friends and family joined this year.

None of the words of this speech is as famous as the sentence “I have a dream.” This speech altogether gives voice to the less remembered and heeded evolution of the vision of Dr. King and Vincent Harding and others. It invokes the work that endures beyond leaders and events of the day, and that can be neglected at our peril if too many of us too narrowly focus our imaginations and creativity and callings on what transfixes and demoralizes in the moment. It calls for a “revolution of values” in the face of glaring contrasts of poverty and wealth and the human cost of a world order that settles differences with wars. That our world is broken, it tells us, should come as no surprise. There were deep moral and spiritual underpinnings to the events of 59 years ago, which we did not acknowledge, much less have risen to as a nation.

A line from this speech seems directly aimed at our ears and our hearts: “We are now faced with the fact, my friends, that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now.” What are the callings now, finally, for us to pick up in creating the world we want to inhabit in the beyond of this moment of great peril and an equal magnitude of possibility?

This is a conversation with two human beings who loved Vincent Harding and whom he loved and formed: Michelle Alexander and Lucas Johnson.

You do not need to have heard or read the speech to follow this conversation, but here are links to do so if you wish:

Hear the speech, as recorded in 1959, in full.

Read the speech in full here.

Listen to Krista's original conversation with Vincent Harding here. 

Find an excellent transcript of this show, edited by humans, on our show page. 

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Michelle Alexander is a civil rights lawyer, legal scholar, and bestselling author of The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. She is currently a Scholar in Residence at Union Theological Seminary, where she is preparing to launch Spirit of Justice, a new organization dedicated to nurturing the spiritual lives of those committed to justice. Learn more at spiritofjustice.org

Lucas Johnson is an organizer and public theologian, who cultivates space for the spiritual transformation that brings about beloved community. He is currently traveling the United States, evoking stories about the movements that expanded American democracy and raising the question ”Is America possible?” in this 250th year since the Declaration of Independence. Find him at lucasjohnson.online. If you would like to invite Lucas to your congregation or organization to explore the personal stories of democratic revival, please learn about the Storytelling Tour here.

This event was produced by a new project at Union Theological Seminary called Into the Crowd, which brings nourishing stories of faith into our broader public life. Into the Crowd is led by Casey Donahue and funded by Lilly Endowment Inc. 

Special thanks to the amazing team of people that made the event at Riverside Church possible, including Casey Donahue, Kym Allen, Rev. Adriene Thorne, Jacob Shmid, Okera Correia, and saxophonist Langston Hughes II, whose exquisite performance of “Precious Lord” opened this episode.

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From Krista:

I'm on record bemoaning across the years that “love” is the most watered-down word in the English language. I know that invoking love feels very soft for our hard realms of politics and war. Yet it is an enduring truth that love is the only force as powerful in a human body as fear. And we inhabit a world that calls us to grow up our capacity to love — and to redeem our relationships to neighbors, strangers, and enemies — as never before, both in the present and for the sake of the world beyond this age of violence we've come to inhabit.

Rabbi Shai Held has written an epic theological work called Judaism is About Love. And, as he interrogates Judaism's complicated history with love, he makes an offering that is of relevance to us all.

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From Krista:

I was longing for a deep dive on the radiant and common-sense hope that Jason Reynolds embodies after I interviewed him at a Georgetown event last year. I got my chance at the 2025 Aspen Ideas Festival. Jason’s perspective is so urgent for the world we've now walked into: on giving ourselves grace to be hopeless, the virtue of stamina, and the hope that stays strong in him from his life in relationship with the very young in our midst — "the arbiters and purveyors of the future" — as well as an occasional stranger in a bar. Jason himself is preternaturally wise as well as talented and kind and humble. He's become a friend across the years and is one of my favorite people in the world. 

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Jason Reynolds is a New York Times bestselling author of over 20 books for children and young adults. From 2020–2022, he served as National Ambassador for Young People’s Literature. Among many honors, he has received the Newbery, Printz, and Coretta Scott King Awards, and was named a MacArthur Fellow in 2024. He is on the faculty at Lesley University for the Writing for Young People M.F.A. Program.

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From Krista:

A few months ago, I was invited to sit with four people sharing a very different Israeli-Palestinian story than that which comes to us in headlines. They are members of the Parents Circle - Bereaved Families Forum, a very special community. It's composed of hundreds of Palestinian and Israeli families, who despite having paid the highest price of the conflict between their peoples, choose to metabolize their loss as ground of shared suffering and possible reconciliation.

I’m so grateful to share that conversation with you now. You will hear their various stories of a transformation of perspective and path. You will hear me invoke a notion of "deep truth" from physics that is vividly with me in this time. Terrible ruptures and escalating violence are part of the truth of what we see ourselves capable. But they are not the whole truth, not the inevitable future. Courageous experiments in healing and transformation are also a reality of our time. In a packed room in New York City, I think we all felt like we were witnessing something unimaginable if you only judge the potentials of humanity from the extreme actions that shape what we call the news. The Bereaved Families Forum is extremism in a life-giving, heart-opening key. We left that room — and may you leave this listening — feeling a little bit healed ourselves, with a hopefulness become more magnetic and more reasonable.

This event was hosted by the American Friends of the Parents Circle – Bereaved Israelis and Palestinians for Peace. My conversation partners were Robi Damelin, Arab Aramin, Mohamed Abu Jafar, and Liora Eilon. Liora, who lost her son in their kibbutz on October 7, 2023, is one of the newest members of this group. 

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Listen to Krista’s original conversation with Robi Damelin and Ali Abu Awaad in the On Being podcast feed; the episode is called “No More Taking Sides”. And learn much more about this beautiful community at theparentscircle.org. The American Friends community website is parentscirclefriends.org.

Find an excellent transcript of this show, edited by humans, on our show page. 

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From Krista:

This episode is a journey inside what I've come to see as a parallel universe unfolding, where our species is unlocking knowledge about ourselves and capacities for radical healing of the most extreme trauma and distress. These findings are even giving rise to dramatic healing alliances across political and social lines that are inflamed in the culture at large. 

At universities and research laboratories around the U.S. and the world, there are countless clinical studies, yielding results it’s hard not at times to call miraculous — for complex PTSD, long-term addiction, treatment-resistant depression. What I’m talking about are therapeutically-administered treatments with plant medicines and chemical compounds we call psychedelic or empathogenic.

Use those words, and many of us — including me until not that long ago — might become wary. Like all forces of great power, these can cut in every direction — the dark and the light of the human condition. But the conversation you are about to hear, with one of the leading neuroscientists in this field, revolves around serious, important research in settings designed for careful, beneficial human effect. Gül Dölen's groundbreaking contribution to all of us is in her fascinating insight into what psychedelically-assisted therapies are revealing about the workings of the human brain and the brain's capacity to change and the human capacity for major transformation altogether. The potential consequences of this science are intimate and civilizational at once. I see them as a stunning ray of hope in a struggling world.

I interviewed Gül Dölen at the 2025 Aspen Ideas Festival.

Find an excellent transcript of this show, edited by humans, on our show page.

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Gül Dölen leads the Dölen Lab at U.C. Berkeley, where she is a Professor and the Bob & Renee Parsons Endowed Chair in the Department of Neuroscience and the Department of Psychology at the Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics and the Helen Wills Neuroscience Institute. She also maintains an Adjunct Professorship in Neuroscience and Neurology at the Johns Hopkins University, School of Medicine. 

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From Krista:

These days I sometimes have to remind myself to keep breathing. I think this is true of human beings across all of our differences and divides. But in a room in New York City just before the turn of this year, I was regrounded by this fierce and joyous conversation with Joy Harjo and Tracy K. Smith. 

I invite you to settle into your soft breathing body with these two wise women as companions and with a sense of poetry as a technology, as Tracy describes in her new book: a technology for rising to our truest, highest selves, even amidst grief and mystery and danger, and bearing witness to each other as we do so. 

I think all of us in the room left a little more lighthearted and alive as this conversation unfolded. I hope that will be your experience too. 

Tracy K. Smith and Joy Harjo are former U.S. poet laureates, beloved On Being guests, and friends. They are each wildly and deservedly awarded and not just as poets — Tracy also as a teacher and professor at Harvard, Joy as a saxophonist and painter. We were brought together at Symphony Space in Manhattan to celebrate their newest books: Fear Less by Tracy and Girl Warrior by Joy.

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Joy Harjo was the 23rd Poet Laureate of the United States. Among many honors, she has received the Poetry Society of America's Frost Medal and a National Humanities Medal. She is the inau­gur­al Artist-in-Res­i­dence for the Bob Dylan Cen­ter in Tul­sa, Okla­homa. She lives on the Musco­gee Nation Reser­va­tion in Oklahoma. Her new book of essays is Girl Warrior. Forthcoming in 2026 is her 12th book of poetry and a new album co-produced with esperanza spalding.

Tracy K. Smith was the 22nd Poet Laureate of the United States. She teaches at Harvard University, where she is Boylston Professor of Rhetoric and Oratory, Professor of African and African American Studies, and Susan S. and Kenneth L. Wallach Professor at the Harvard Radcliffe Institute. Among her many honors, she has been awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Poetry  and is a Chancellor of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Her new memoir is Fear Less.

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Five new On Being episodes will begin to roll out next week …

We begin with the delightful beloved poets (and friends) Joy Harjo and Tracy K. Smith in conversation together with Krista. We move on to the neuroscientist Gül Dölen; a community of Israelis and Palestinians who will expand your heart and moral imagination; philosopher rabbi Shai Held; and, because we can't get enough of him, a wonderful new sit-down with Krista and Jason Reynolds on hope in this time and in friendship with the young in our world.

All of them offer beauty and pragmatic nourishment for ourselves and for witnessing each other's hurt and each other's promise. There is searching and pondering on what love really means and how it works and what hope can mean in this world in which hopelessness feels so reasonable. And be prepared to be amazed in an introduction to majestic learning underway about new, transformative healing of our brains and our lives emerging from the frontier of psychedelically-assisted therapeutic treatments.

Please help us spread the word, and join us!

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The great primatologist and humanitarian, Jane Goodall, died on October 1, 2025, at the age of 91. It is a joy and a comfort to revisit our last broadcast of her 2020 conversation with Krista.  Jane Goodall began her epic work studying chimpanzees in the Gombe forest without even a college degree. The science she proceeded to do recalled modern western science to the fact that we are a part of nature, not separate from it. She spent the last decades of her life on the road, often with the young, tending to human fear and misunderstanding. In this beautiful conversation from pandemic lockdown, she shared the moral and spiritual wisdom that emerged in her extraordinary life — and the hope that, to the end, sustained her.

Jane Goodall was the founder of the Jane Goodall Institute and its youth program, Roots & Shoots. She has been the subject of many films and documentaries, including “Jane Goodall: The Hope.” Her many books include In the Shadow of Man, Reason for Hope: A Spiritual Journey, and most recently, The Book of Hope: A Survival Guide for Trying Times. 

Find the transcript for this show at onbeing.org.

This show originally aired in August, 2020.

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This rich, gorgeous conversation will fill your soul. The singular and beloved Joanna Macy died at home at the age of 96 on July 20, 2025. She has left an immense legacy of beauty and wisdom and courage to sustain us. A Buddhist teacher, ecological philosopher, and Rilke translator, she taught and embodied a wild love for the world. What follows is the second and final conversation Krista had with Joanna, together with Joanna’s friend, psychologist and fellow Rilke translator Anita Barrows, in 2021. Joanna and Anita had just published a new translation of Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet. At the turn of the last tumultuous century, Rilke was prescient in realizing that the world as he’d known it was passing away. Joanna’s adventurous life and vision took shape in the crucibles of the history that then unfolded. Relistening to her now is to experience a way of standing before the great, unfolding dramas of our time — ecological, political, intimate. We stand before the possibilities of what Joanna called “A Great Unraveling” or “A Great Turning” towards life-generating human society. All of this and so much more comes through in the riches of this life-giving conversation. 

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Joanna Macy was the root teacher of The Work That Reconnects. Her books include Active Hope and four volumes of translated works of Rainer Maria Rilke, together with Anita Barrows: Rilke’s Book of Hours: Love Poems to God;  In Praise of Mortality; and A Year with Rilke. Krista's previous "On Being” episode with her is “A Wild Love for the World.” That’s also the title of a lovely book of homage to Joanna that was published in 2020. 

Anita Barrows’s most recent poetry collection is Testimony. She is the Institute Professor of Psychology at the Wright Institute in Berkeley, California, and also maintains a private practice. 

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