Dana Kay’s first memory of alcohol is from a dinner party when she was five or six years old. She spent the night sneaking sips while the adults were turned away in conversation, and by the end of the night she’d passed out on a beanbag in the middle of the room. Nobody worried. Everybody laughed. It became a family story people told for years, and it planted something in her that took over four decades to undo.

By the time she reached her late 30s and early 40s, that early fascination had turned into two DUIs, years of drinking vodka out of water bottles during real estate inspections, and a daily system so precise she could stay “sober” for the school bus pickup every single day. She went to treatment twice in 2016. The first stay didn’t hold. The second one did, and it changed the entire direction of her life.

In this conversation, Dana walks through what actually separated her two attempts. It wasn’t willpower, and it wasn’t a stronger program. It was the difference between trying to stop a behavior and committing to becoming a completely different person.

As she approaches her ten-year sobriety anniversary on September 1st, she shares what that shift required, what she had to grieve along the way, and why she stopped trying to fit her writing into one tidy niche.

Show Notes

[00:00] Welcome and Introduction

Josh introduces Dana Kay as a writer, connector, and nurturer who’s been alcohol-free for over nine years, and the two immediately find common ground.

* Dana has been alcohol-free for nearly a decade, with her ten-year mark landing on September 1st

* Josh and Dana discover they’ve both had a DUI, and neither of them remembers much of the night it happened

* The tone is set early: honest, unpolished, and willing to go straight into hard material

Key Insights: “I got the police report in the mail... and I was reading the police report going, that happened? I didn’t remember.” - Dana Kay

[02:11] Growing Up “Cute Little Dana”

Dana traces her drinking back to childhood, growing up the youngest of eight (two big brothers, five step-siblings) between two very different father figures after her parents’ divorce.

* She had a well-provided-for upbringing but didn’t recognize it until she started paying her own bills

* She followed “the expected track”: graduated high school at 17, college at 21, became an elementary teacher, then moved into real estate in 2006

* She names her own talent and ability to always get hired as a “double-edged sword” that fed her drinking later on

Key Insights: “You can over-rely on your achievements and your talents... and that definitely played into my alcohol use for sure.” - Dana Kay

[04:43] The Beanbag Story

Dana describes her first conscious memory of alcohol in detail: sneaking sips at her parents’ dinner parties around age five or six, and passing out on a beanbag while the adults laughed above her.

* Her parents didn’t send her to bed during parties; instead they gave her small jobs, like bringing guests drinks, which kept her in the room

* She picked up early that drinking was “the absolute cool thing,” because she saw adults enjoying it and wanted to feel what they felt

* Looking back as a mother herself, she’s had to reckon with recreating some of the same environments for her own kids without realizing it at the time

Key Insights: “Instead of worrying or being sad, they were laughing. And they thought it was really cute.” - Dana Kay

[09:22] College and the Double Life

At UC Davis, Dana joined a Christian youth group (originally because the boys were cute) and found faith on a retreat at 18. But she kept a second, separate version of herself for home.

* Her day-to-day life revolved around a sober Christian friend group, while trips back to her hometown meant drinking, flirting, and partying

* She describes the pull of that split identity as its own addiction: “The complete rush was, what can I get away with?”

* After friends celebrated that she’d “never party again,” she made a conscious decision in the car to keep that part of her life hidden from them going forward

Key Insights: “It was a complete rush, more than alcohol itself. The complete rush was, what can I get away with?” - Dana Kay

[15:00] The Rock Bottom Years

By her late 30s, working in real estate, Dana’s drinking became a fully hidden system built around her family’s schedule.

* She lied to her husband about needing to “drop off flyers” or run open houses so she could go drink, and he had no way to track her irregular real estate hours

* She drank vodka out of water bottles during home inspections for over a decade, including with an inspector she’d known for 15 years who never suspected a thing

* She built a daily rhythm: sober and present for morning drop-off, drinking through the day, then timing a nap so she’d appear sober again by the time her sons got off the bus

* One morning in late August, her organs seized and she couldn’t move out of bed; she still told her husband she “just had a tummy ache” before he left for work

Key Insights: “That energy of wanting to get away with it, and fooling everyone, lived more in me than the substance did.” - Dana Kay

[17:49] First Treatment vs. Second Treatment

Dana explains the moment that sent her to treatment the first time, the relapse that followed, and the deeper shift that made the second stay permanent.

* Her therapist stopped a session mid-conversation and said, “we can’t get any further until you’re honest about alcohol,” which Dana had been carefully avoiding

* That night she Googled “how do you know if you’re an alcoholic” and discovered she’d searched the exact same thing on Christmas Eve, in a blackout she had no memory of

* After four sober months following her first treatment, she relapsed on a trip to Europe with her son, telling herself a little drinking wouldn’t turn permanent

* The second time she got sober, a therapist helped her see the real difference: the first attempt focused on stopping a behavior, while the second required building an entirely new identity

Key Insights: “If you’re going to be successful at this, you have to have an entirely new identity.” - Dana Kay

[34:29] Building the New Identity

Dana describes the practical, unglamorous work of rebuilding her life around the new identity, not just the absence of alcohol.

* She had to consciously change her driving routes because her car would automatically head toward familiar bars

* She built accountability into her schedule by not leaving gaps between appointments, and leaned on close friends and her husband to hold her to it

* She started a morning journaling practice, writing down small changes so she could reread her own words later, on the days she felt weak

* She noticed real physical changes, like hitting new personal records at the gym, and had to stop denying that sobriety was the reason

Key Insights: “No, Dana, you know that this is going to lead to that. This feels so much better. You wrote it right here.” - Dana Kay

[38:07] Noticing, Grief, and the Sunrise

Dana connects her recovery to a growing capacity to actually notice her life, and the grief that came with realizing how much she’d missed.

* She began noticing details on ordinary drives, like trees, mountains, an eagle, or a deer, that she says she never used to see

* She describes a memory of watching a sunrise in Mexico while drinking, and realizing only in hindsight that it was really “a place to go hide and drink”

* She’s come to believe that grieving what was missed isn’t just okay, it’s a necessary part of the process

* She also became more honest in her business relationships, without the manipulation she now recognizes she’d been running for years

Key Insights: “Not only is it okay to grieve that, it’s important to grieve that.” - Dana Kay

[41:11] Family Roots, What She Writes Now, and Where to Find Her

Dana closes by connecting her story to her family’s long history with alcoholism, and explains what she writes about today.

* Her grandparents were pillars of the local AA and Al-Anon community, and she grew up helping serve pie and coffee at their meetings, even while her own aunt struggled with alcoholism without full openness from the family

* After years of trying to force her writing into one niche, she’s landed on a simple framework: Connection, Acceptance, and Noticing (C-A-N)

* She writes about sobriety, motherhood of older kids, being single in your 50s, and starting over later in life, all under what she calls the umbrella of love

* She’s active on Substack and Instagram as Dana Kay, offers one-on-one calls, and leads gratitude and connection sessions at retreats she’s invited to

Key Insights: “There is no saying no to whatever your dreams are, whatever you want to do with your life. There’s just no no.” - Dana Kay

Key Quotes

“The complete rush was, what can I get away with?” - Dana Kay

“If you’re going to be successful at this, you have to have an entirely new identity.” - Dana Kay

“My identity took me into relapse because I still wanted to be the pretty, fun, cool girl, mom, friend, daughter.” - Dana Kay

“Not only is it okay to grieve that, it’s important to grieve that.” - Dana Kay

“There is no saying no to whatever your dreams are, whatever you want to do with your life. There’s just no no.” - Dana Kay

Resources Mentioned

* Gabor Maté’s approach to addiction — Dana references his idea that instead of asking “where’s the addiction,” you ask “where’s the pain”

* AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) and Al-Anon — the community Dana’s grandparents helped lead, which shaped her early exposure to recovery

* Dana’s C-A-N framework — Connection, Acceptance, and Noticing, the three principles she now writes and coaches around

Where to Find Dana Kay

* Instagram: Dana Kay

* 1:1 Calls: Dana offers personal calls for anyone working through what she writes about, from sobriety questions to relationship decisions

* Retreats and Workshops: She’s invited to lead gratitude circles, forest walks, and connection sessions at corporate and soulful retreat spaces

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Dana Kay for her extraordinary honesty and wisdom. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Your Next Step

Dana’s second treatment worked because she stopped trying to just stop drinking and rebuilt an entirely new identity instead. The first time ran on willpower, and it wore out by June. The second time gave her whole system room to actually recover, and that’s what held.

The Sober Creative Reset is built around that same shift. It’s a guided 30-day alcohol-free reset, with one-on-one coaching from your first session, not a program you follow alone. The fog and depletion so many high performers carry aren’t a discipline problem. They come from recovery that never fully completes. No labels, no moralizing, no lifetime sobriety vow, just real support while your energy, clarity, and follow-through come back online.

Most guests on this show are people who found their way to sobriety and creativity through hard-won trial and error. This week’s guest is a small golden monkey in a patchwork waistcoat who has never had a drink in his life. His name is Jomo, and he teaches meditation to millions of people on TikTok alongside his human, Jason, at The Monkeymind Meditation Club.

Jomo’s origin story starts with Jason hitting a wall. He liked to drink and party until, as Jomo put it, “the bottom of the barrel was in sight.” Meditation pulled him out of it, and it worked so well that Jason wanted to teach it to others. The problem was that meditation looked strange and unapproachable to most beginners. So Jason built a version anyone could try, and gave it a monkey mascot to make the whole thing feel less intimidating and more human.

What Jomo shared in this conversation goes far beyond breathing techniques. He talked about why the mind is the most important tool we have, why meditation is less about being calm and more about clearing the noise so calm can show up, and why he believes people who choose sobriety are some of the bravest people alive. If you have ever avoided sitting with your own thoughts, this one is for you.

[00:50] Meet Jomo, the Meditation-Teaching Monkey

* Jomo is the mascot and co-teacher behind Monkey Mind Meditation, run alongside his human, Jason.

* The name plays on “monkey mind,” a term meditation teachers use for the constant jostling of thoughts and feelings we all deal with.

* Jomo’s approach centers on making meditation feel ordinary instead of mystical or hard to access.

Key Insight:

“Hello, it’s lovely to be here.”— Jomo

[03:05] From Rock Bottom to Monkey Mind: How the Journey Began

* Jason struggled with drinking and partying before finding meditation as a way out.

* Learning to meditate changed his life enough that he wanted to teach it to others.

* Early students were put off because meditation online looked strange — people in odd positions, dramatic backdrops, nothing relatable.

* Jason built a simpler, friendlier version of meditation and gave it a monkey mascot to make it approachable.

Key Insight:

“He liked to drink and he liked to party. And he realized that the bottom of the barrel was in sight.”— Jomo

[05:55] Two Million Meditators: Growing an Audience on TikTok

* The show started rough. Early viewers were confused and sometimes rude about what they were watching.

* Growth was slow at first, then it exploded into hundreds of new viewers every week.

* They’ve now done over 600 live sessions and reached more than 2 million people through TikTok.

* New viewers tend to follow the same pattern: confusion, then curiosity, then commitment.

Key Insight:

“When they first come on, they think to themselves, what is this? And then they put the little acronym, WTF, which is a bit rude. But we stick with it. And then a few minutes later, they may say, oh, this is actually quite calming. And then a few minutes later, they’ll say, this is actually working. And then a few minutes later after that, they say, when are you next on? And then they’re a fan.”— Jomo

[09:05] Why Your Mind Is the Most Important Tool You Own

* Jomo argues the mind shapes the quality of everything else in life, including how we experience reality itself.

* He points out that nobody gets a manual for how their brain works.

* He describes meditation as a kind of daily software upgrade for the brain.

* He calls the practice “a force field for good mental health” that needs to be recharged regularly, since life keeps throwing things at us.

Key Insight:

“I call it a force field for good mental health. Every time we meditate, we recharge that force field.”— Jomo

[11:10] Sitting With the Monsters: Meditation and Sobriety

* Jomo believes people on a sober journey are some of the bravest people around.

* He connects addictive behavior to an unwillingness or inability to face what’s going on inside our own heads.

* Meditation, in his view, is a way to sit with the parts of ourselves we normally avoid or numb.

* He argues meditation doesn’t create calm directly. It removes noise, and calm follows from that.

Key Insight:

“Meditation helps us look inside. And sit with the monsters. And then when you sit with the monsters, you realize that the monsters just want to be heard. And when the monsters are heard, they go away.”— Jomo

[13:32] Think Away: Making Meditation Approachable for Everyone

* Jomo teaches people that trying to stop thinking is impossible, and fighting that fact just creates frustration.

* Instead of suppressing thoughts, his method is to notice them and gently return to the breath or a mantra.

* He reframes a common complaint — “I can’t meditate because my mind is too busy” — as the exact reason meditation is needed.

* The format is deliberately ritualized (three deep breaths to start, a wriggle and stretch to close), which he says works especially well for their autistic community.

Key Insight:

“We teach people that you can’t stop thinking. That’s impossible. It’s like saying, don’t think of a pink elephant. And the first thing you do is you think of a pink elephant. So what we say is, think away. That’s okay. We’re not going to thought shame you here.”— Jomo

[16:56] A Live Guided Meditation With Jomo

* Jomo led a short mindfulness meditation live on the show, starting with three deep breaths.

* The meditation focused on noticing thoughts without following them, comparing them to leaves floating past on a river.

* He guided listeners toward the idea that we are the awareness watching our thoughts, not the thoughts themselves.

* Several listeners in the chat reported feeling calmer immediately afterward.

Key Insight:

“And begin to sense that this breath is not something you’re doing, but something that’s happening to you.”— Jomo

[26:03] Beyond TikTok: Variety, Reactions, and Where to Find Jomo Next

* TikTok’s algorithm reportedly struggles with their content because viewers stop interacting while meditating.

* Jomo shared a story about teaching meditation to someone with road rage, who learned to notice his anger instead of being swept up in it.

* Their live sessions mix different formats: mindfulness meditations, Zen stories, visualization journeys (Peru, Morocco, even an imagined “Land of Cake”), and a loving kindness meditation to close things out.

* They go live on TikTok Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and have recently started YouTube lives on Sundays at 9pm, with all past sessions archived on YouTube.

Key Insight:

“We start with a mindfulness-based meditation, then quite often we’ll have a little bit of a Zen story, and then after that we have a visualization meditation, so we go to ancient Peru, Morocco, or the Land of Cake we did the other day. And then we finally give people a taste of a loving kindness meditation at the end so that they go away feeling full of good vibes.”— Jomo

Key Quotes

“When you sit with the monsters, you realize that the monsters just want to be heard. And when the monsters are heard, they go away.”— Jomo

“It doesn’t make you calmer. It just takes away the noise. Calm follows.”— Jomo

“And people say, I can’t meditate because my mind is too busy. To which we say, that’s like saying, I can’t go to the gym because I’m too unfit.”— Jomo

“There’s nothing to achieve here. Nothing to get right. Just a soft arriving into this moment.”— Jomo

“You’re not the passing thought. You’re the awareness that sees it. You’re not the changing story. You’re the space in which it appears.”— Jomo

Resources Mentioned

* Monkey Mind Meditation — Jomo and Jason’s meditation practice, live on TikTok and YouTube

* Transcendental Meditation — the practice mentioned as Josh’s own current meditation approach

* Vedic meditation — the tradition Jason teaches, described as closely related to Transcendental Meditation

Where to Find Jomo

* TikTok: Live sessions Monday, Wednesday, and Friday

* YouTube: Live sessions Sunday at 9pm, with all past recordings archived

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Jomo for his humor, warmth, and unexpected wisdom on what it actually takes to sit still. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

A Natural Bridge

Jomo’s whole philosophy comes down to one idea: meditation doesn’t hand you calm directly, it clears the noise, and calm shows up on its own once the noise is gone. That’s the same principle behind alcohol and creativity. Alcohol is often the tool people reach for to avoid sitting with what’s actually happening in their heads. Removing it doesn’t hand you clarity right away either. It clears space, and clarity tends to follow from there.

If this episode stirred something for you and you're ready to do that work with support instead of alone, I coach a small number of people 1:1 through exactly this process. Send me a message at and let's talk about what that could look like for you.

Jeff “H” Harrington has been playing bass and writing songs for close to 40 years. He grew up in Milwaukee, a city he describes as one of the heaviest drinking cultures in the country, and spent his 20s and 30s using alcohol to manage a shyness he calls “criminally vulgar.” Nine years ago he left a career in medical physics to chase music full time. Five years ago, he stopped drinking almost entirely.

What makes Jeff’s story worth sitting with is what he found on the other side. He didn’t just give up alcohol. He learned he’s deeply introverted, sensitive to noise and to the energy of a crowded room, and far less interested in big social gatherings than he ever realized while drinking. He also traded songwriting as an emotional release valve for something different: chant music built on ancient mantras, made to help people feel calm and present rather than to process pain.

In this conversation, Jeff talks about growing up in a drinking culture so strong it shaped an entire state’s identity, why his own drinking nearly disappeared the moment he lived somewhere else, and how a stomach problem sealed a decision his body had already started making on its own. He also shares a theory about sad music that’s worth thinking about, whether you drink or not.

[1:36] Meet Jeff Harrington: Musician, Nine Years Removed From a Left-Brain Career

* Jeff is a singer, songwriter, producer, and bass player who’s been gigging for close to 40 years, much of it in the blues scene.

* Nine years ago he left his career as a medical physicist to focus on music, even though it’s never been his main income.

* He’s five years sober and has pulled back from playing out live, a shift he traces directly to sobriety.

Key Insight: “We’re supposed to do what we’re really terrified of, aren’t we?”

[3:03] Growing Up in Wisconsin’s Drinking Culture

* Jeff grew up in Milwaukee, which he says ranks nationally for excessive drinking, DUIs per capita, and bars per capita.

* College at Madison took that culture to another level. He describes drinking at least 12 beers a night as normal for everyone around him.

* He used alcohol to manage deep shyness and social anxiety, comparing it to an athlete numbing an injury just to get through the game.

Key Insight: “I think I was literally, my growth was stunted for at least five or 10 years looking back.”

[7:07] The Cleveland Contrast

* When Jeff moved to Cleveland for his first job, he expected a similar drinking culture to Wisconsin. Instead, he found people drank far less, and so did he.

* Looking back, this showed him how much of his drinking had been shaped by the environment around him, not by who he actually was.

* When he moved back to Wisconsin, he eventually fell back into the same heavy drinking patterns.

Key Insight: “I didn’t drink that much when I was in Cleveland. So looking back, I see that that’s who I really was.”

[13:48] Discovering He’s an Introvert

* After quitting drinking, Jeff realized he’s extremely introverted and sensitive to noise and to the energy of the people around him.

* He’s meditated for about 15 years, which he thinks has made him more attuned to these subtler energies.

* His social life shifted from crowds to small, comfortable gatherings that don’t leave him exhausted the next day.

Key Insight: “I’m not somebody who’s going to want to go to a party at this point or any place that’s loud and crowded.”

[15:54] A Stomach Issue Sealed What Had Already Begun

* About 10 years ago, Jeff and his then-girlfriend already cut back on drinking a lot as they got more into health.

* About five years ago, a stomach issue made alcohol physically intolerable, arriving right as he was already drinking less.

* Today he has maybe three or four drinks a year, and calls it fully intentional rather than something he misses.

Key Insight: “If my stomach magically healed, I wouldn’t be drinking at all. I don’t like it in my life anymore.”

[17:09] From Songwriting as Therapy to Chant Music as Calm

* In his 20s and 30s, Jeff used songwriting as one of his only tools for processing intense emotion, since he felt culture raised men to stay disconnected from their feelings.

* Today he writes mostly chant music on his Substack, Inside Sky Chant, built around ancient mantras rather than English lyrics.

* The purpose of his music has shifted from emotional catharsis to something more utilitarian: helping listeners feel calm and present.

Key Insight: “The ultimate goal would be it’s music that would be used to help people just be more calm and maybe present.”

[22:50] A New Earth: Spiritual Growth and Sobriety Growing Together

* About 15 years ago, Jeff read Eckhart Tolle’s A New Earth, which he says completely changed his life after years of searching without finding a way in.

* That book led him toward chant music, sound baths, and a spiritual practice he sees as deeply tied to his relationship with alcohol.

* He’s careful to say this isn’t about judging people who drink. For him personally, alcohol just no longer serves what he’s trying to build.

Key Insight: “I think the spiritual growth and the alcohol are very interconnected.”

[28:23] The Hangover, the Brain, and a Theory About Sad Music

* Jeff and Josh discuss how alcohol triggers inflammation in the body, which is part of what a hangover actually is.

* They talk through how alcohol can worsen depression and how the brain’s negativity bias, combined with modern stressors like social media, feeds a cycle of using alcohol to regulate the nervous system.

* Jeff shares a personal theory that he became addicted to sad music the same way people get dependent on alcohol, reaching for it out of habit rather than need.

Key Insight: “I think if people are listening to sad music every day, I really would suggest trying to step back and take a look at that.”

Key Quotes

“I think that’s like a perfect analog to someone who’s shy and they’re drinking.” - Jeff Harrington

“I was someone who didn’t even really want to drink that much. I was probably very influenced by the culture around me.” - Jeff Harrington

“I found out so clearly that I’m extremely introverted and sensitive to all the noise.” - Jeff Harrington

“If my stomach magically healed, I wouldn’t be drinking at all. I don’t like it in my life anymore.” - Jeff Harrington

“I really feel more and more, I feel like people really underestimate how powerful music is.” - Jeff Harrington

Resources Mentioned

* A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle

* Release Your Song (Jeff’s Substack on music and creativity)

* Inside Sky Chant (Jeff’s Substack for his chant music)

* Handpan (the instrument Jeff and Josh discuss in relation to nervous system regulation)

* Sound baths (a guided meditation practice using instruments like handpans)

Where to Find Jeff

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to Florence Acosta, Noelle Richards, Peter, and many others who joined us live for this conversation, and to Jeff for his openness and generosity in sharing his story. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

What This Conversation Points To

Jeff and Josh spent a good chunk of this episode on something worth pulling out on its own: the cycle of reaching for alcohol the moment an uncomfortable feeling shows up, because it soothes that feeling within minutes. Jeff broke that cycle on his own timeline, over years, without a program or a guide walking alongside him.

That’s exactly where 1:1 coaching comes in. If you’re recognizing that same cycle in your own life and you’re ready to shorten the timeline, let’s talk. No pitch, no commitment. Just a conversation about where you’re at and what might be possible.

Gary Allen had his first drink at 19, a pint of Harp he didn’t even like. He kept drinking it anyway, because for the first time, he felt like everybody else. Gary grew up in rural Ireland, the oldest of three, and has used a wheelchair full-time since he was 13. Alcohol became the thing that closed the distance between him and the room. He didn’t fully realize that’s what it was doing until decades later.

For 26 years, drinking looked completely normal. Nights out with his brothers turned into nearly 20 years of sharing wine on the couch with his wife. Nothing about his life looked broken. He had a steady IT career, a mortgage, and a stable home. At 45, he just noticed something simple: it was getting in his way now.

That one observation, made on a flight home from Barcelona in January 2018, led him to commit to 100 alcohol-free days. He hasn’t had a drink since. Within weeks, he stumbled onto a coaching course and knew almost instantly it was where he belonged. Nearly nine years later, at 54, Gary runs his own practice, the Life Design Collective, helping people in midlife ask the same question he once asked himself: is this it, or is there something else?

[03:06] Growing Up Different in Rural Ireland

* Gary was born and raised in rural Ireland and has used a wheelchair full-time since age 13.

* He didn’t have his first drink until 19, well past the age most of his peers started.

* Drinking made him feel like part of the group in a way he hadn’t before, since he grew up looking different from everyone around him.

Key Insight: “It just made me feel like everybody else.”

[07:04] The Wake-Up Call at 45

* His drinking shifted over time: nights out with his brothers in his 20s, then almost 20 years of sharing wine with his wife on the couch.

* Nothing about his life looked dramatic. He had a steady job, paid his bills, and everything seemed fine on the surface.

* At 45, he simply noticed alcohol was in his way and decided to see what life looked like without it.

Key Insight: “It’s getting in my way now.”

[07:46] From IT Career to Full-Time Coach

* On a flight home from Barcelona in January 2018, Gary committed to 100 alcohol-free days. He never had another drink after that.

* Within about two months, he found a coaching course and knew right away it was what he wanted to do.

* He ran two full workloads at once (coaching and his IT job) for years before finally leaving tech in 2023 to coach full-time.

Key Insight: “I didn’t actually go, okay, I’m quitting my job and I’m going to sell a house and move to Bali.”

[10:57] The Pattern Behind Change That Sticks

* Most people start by naming what they don’t want: hangovers, health problems, tension at work or at home.

* Once that clears, the real work begins, which is figuring out what you’re actually moving toward.

* Change rarely works on the first try. Every attempt adds information, and the streaks get longer as people learn instead of judging themselves for slipping.

Key Insight: “It doesn’t ever really work the first time.”

[13:04] Curiosity Over Judgment

* Gary calls curiosity, instead of self-judgment, the biggest shift he sees in people who make change last.

* Instead of asking why they failed, the useful question becomes what they could try differently next time.

* This mindset reaches far beyond drinking. It’s the difference between staying stuck in a cycle and actually moving forward.

Key Insight: “If you can treat it with curiosity and not judgment, that’s the real game changer.”

[17:00] Creativity, Clarity, and Finding Substack

* Gary spent almost 30 years in software, which he describes as genuinely creative work, even though it was never quite the right fit for him.

* About six weeks into sobriety, he experienced a level of energy and clarity he’d never felt before.

* That clarity opened the door to writing. He’s been on Substack for close to two years and is nearing one full year of his weekly newsletter, Second Act Sunday.

Key Insight: “Creativity almost by default jumps in.”

[21:02] What Happens When the Numbing Stops

* Removing alcohol doesn’t remove hard feelings. It just means you feel all of them, not only the ones you’d pick.

* Gary resisted gratitude journaling at first. “Thank you very much, I’ll pass,” he says of being told to write down three things he was grateful for.

* The practice ended up helping him see what he already had and who he already was, built by parents who raised him to believe he could do anything.

Key Insight: “It did allow me to kind of see what I have and see who I am.”

[29:19] Building a Second Act After 40

* Gary pushes back on the idea that life needs to be fully figured out by 40, and that any change after that is too hard or too late.

* His program, the Second Act Blueprint, is a seven-week experience helping people mostly between 40 and 60 design what comes next. The sixth cohort starts next Tuesday, with two spots still open.

* He didn’t blow up his life to make his own change. He changed slowly, over eight years, while keeping his job, his house, and his marriage intact. He’s now compiling a year of his newsletter with an eye toward turning it into a book.

Key Insight: “It took me, really, eight years of slow change.”

Key Quotes

“It just made me feel like everybody else.” — Gary Allen

“It’s getting in my way now.” — Gary Allen

“If you can treat it with curiosity and not judgment, that’s the real game changer.” — Gary Allen

“I didn’t actually go, okay, I’m quitting my job and I’m going to sell a house and move to Bali.” — Gary Allen

“It took me, really, eight years of slow change.” — Gary Allen

Resources Mentioned

* Life Design Collective — Gary’s own coaching practice, built around midlife redesign

* The Second Act Blueprint — Gary’s seven-week program helping people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s design what comes next (Next Cohort Starting on Tuesday July 21)

* Second Act Sunday — Gary’s weekly Substack newsletter, closing in on its first full year

* Richard Rohr and Arthur C. Brooks — authors Gary reads on the idea of a second act in midlife

Where to Find Gary

Email: [email protected]

Website: https://garyallen.ie/

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Gary Allen for his openness and wisdom. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Building Your Own Second Act

Gary’s story keeps coming back to one idea: change that lasts doesn’t come from a dramatic overhaul. It comes from removing the thing that’s been quietly draining your energy and clarity, then giving yourself time to rebuild from there.

That’s the same work at the center of The Sober Creative Method™, my 90-day, 1:1 coaching experience for people who want to remove alcohol as the barrier to their full creative capacity. No labels, no rock bottom required, just a structured path back to the energy and clarity that’s already yours.

If this episode resonated, send me a message and tell me where you’re at. I read every one.

Bob Mathers spent 35 years being “Bobby Good Times.” He was the guy other people kept on speed dial for a good night out, the one always up for an extra day of drinking when everyone else had called it quits. He built a career as a speaker and coach. He raised two sons. From the outside, it looked like a full life. On the inside, he was running on a weekly cycle of shame and recovery that had become so normal, he stopped questioning it.

In this conversation, Bob sits down to talk about what it actually took to break that cycle. He walks through the rules he tried and failed to follow, the Monday-morning mood he lived in for years, and the night he finally collapsed into his wife’s arms and said he had to stop. He also talks about a health scare with his son that reframed everything, and about a discovery he made once alcohol was out of the picture: a version of creativity he’d spent his whole life insisting he didn’t have.

What makes this one land isn’t just the honesty. It’s the specificity. Bob doesn’t talk about sobriety in abstractions. He talks about counting bottles in a fridge at 17, a mood scale that ran from a two on Monday to a nine on Friday, and writing his first song at 55, in a single day, about a drive with his mother.

If you’ve wondered what’s actually on the other side of quitting, this conversation gives you a real answer.

Show Notes

[02:45] The First Drink and Decades of “Bobby Good Times”

* Bob’s first drink was a stolen Labatt Blue from his dad’s fridge at 17. His mom counted 23 missing bottles because he was acting strange.

* The taste was awful, but the feeling hooked him. It became, in his words, the answer to being the person he wanted to be.

* From 17 to 52, drinking anchored his life. Friday and Saturday nights were automatic, and he was often the one pushing for a Thursday or Sunday too.

* He could count on one hand how many weekends he took off in 35 years.

Key Insights: “It was actually really gross, but I loved the way it made me feel. It just seemed like the answer to being the person that I wanted to be.”

[09:38] When It Stopped Being Fun

* Watching his own sons go through hangovers, Bob now recognizes the anxiety he felt in his 20s and 30s but never had words for. Nobody talked about anxiety in the 80s.

* The real darkness set in during the five years before he quit, at 52.

* Drinking that once made him feel social and connected started making him feel isolated. He was hiding it and lying more.

* COVID sped everything up. The backyard parties were fun in the moment, but when life went back to normal, the drinking never slowed back down.

Key Insights: “It just felt like this thing that used to make me more social and more fun, and make me feel like a part of a group, was increasingly isolating.”

[12:13] The Rules That Never Worked

* Bob negotiated with himself constantly: no beers over 5%, no mixing beer and wine, no drinking on Sunday, no drinking before 4pm.

* Every rule bought him about two weeks before it collapsed.

* He kept waking up next to his wife, unable to remember the night before, promising things would change.

* Eventually he realized the rules were never going to hold, because he was powerless the moment he took the first drink.

Key Insights: “I had tried everything, and the only thing left was: I’ve got to stop. I’m powerless as soon as I have one drink.”

[14:02] Living the Monday-to-Friday Mood Cycle

* For two to three years before quitting, Bob’s whole life ran on a weekly mood cycle.

* Monday mornings he’d cancel meetings and take long walks alone, timed so his family wouldn’t see him.

* By Thursday he’d start to feel human again. By Friday he was ready to go out and do it all over.

* Looking back, he realized that cycle wasn’t rest and recovery. It was survival on repeat.

Key Insights: “Monday I’m a two. Wednesday I’m still pretty low, I’m a five. But by Thursday I’m a seven, and Friday morning I’m a nine.”

[17:19] Two Wake-Up Calls: Quitting and a Health Scare

* Bob quit on the Monday after Easter Sunday in 2022, following a messy family dinner the night before.

* He came home from a walk, collapsed into his wife’s arms, and said he had to stop. That became day one.

* Less than a year into sobriety, a second wake-up call hit: his son collapsed at a restaurant, and doctors found a bacterial mass pressing on his brain. He was rushed into emergency surgery and fully recovered.

* Bob credits being a couple years sober for how he and his wife handled it. If he’d still been drinking, he says he doesn’t know what would have happened.

Key Insights: “Life just gets really simple, really fast. I just didn’t want to waste a single day.”

[21:53] Three Years to “This Is Actually Better”

* Bob describes his first year sober as white-knuckling through every first: his birthday, Christmas, New Year’s, a boys’ trip, a wedding.

* Year two, he started testing whether he could actually enjoy himself sober instead of just proving he could survive it.

* It took a third year before he believed the people who’d told him you could have fun without drinking.

* Losing his friends scared him most. His phone did stop ringing for some things, but the friendships that mattered stayed intact. He’s the only one in his friend group who’s sober.

Key Insights: “Everyone quits, whether you quit 10 minutes before you take your last breath or 10 years before you die, or 20, or 30. Everyone quits. I’m just the one that went first.”

[28:04] Writing His First Song at 55

* Bob spent his whole life telling himself he wasn’t a creative person, even while building a career around surrounding himself with creative people.

* Songwriting eluded him for years. He’d write a couple of lines, decide they were garbage, and quit before finishing a verse.

* A guest on his own podcast, singer-songwriter Peter Katz, mentioned a songwriting retreat. Bob went: Friday for writing, Saturday for recording, Sunday for listening back to a fully produced song.

* The song is about driving his mother to her new retirement home. He played it for his family, and they cried.

Key Insights: “Creativity is inside all of us. It’s just buried under self-doubt and imposter syndrome and fear of judgment. And it’s there.”

Key Quotes

“I had tried everything, and the only thing left was: I’ve got to stop. I’m powerless as soon as I have one drink.” - Bob Mathers

“Monday I’m a two. Wednesday I’m still pretty low, I’m a five. But by Thursday I’m a seven, and Friday morning I’m a nine.” - Bob Mathers

“I’ve realized that eight was actually a six, because I found a 12 and a 13, and I think I found a 15 and a 16. Who’s to say there is a limit on this?” - Bob Mathers

“Everyone quits, whether you quit 10 minutes before you take your last breath or 10 years before you die, or 20, or 30. Everyone quits. I’m just the one that went first.” - Bob Mathers

“Creativity is inside all of us. It’s just buried under self-doubt and imposter syndrome and fear of judgment. And it’s there.” - Bob Mathers

Resources Mentioned

* The Growth Mixtape — Bob’s podcast, with new episodes every other Thursday

* The Restless Leader — Bob’s Substack, written for people who built a successful career and now feel restless

* Peter Katz — singer-songwriter and speaker from Toronto who hosts songwriting retreats

* Rob Zabo — the award-winning producer who produced Bob’s song, and an upcoming guest on The Growth Mixtape

Where to Find Bob

* LinkedIn: search Bob Mathers

* Podcast: The Growth Mixtape, wherever you listen, new episodes every other Thursday

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Bob Mathers for his honesty and generosity in sharing his story. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Your Next Step

Bob spent decades telling himself he wasn’t creative. It took removing alcohol, and a lot of honesty about what he was actually afraid of, to find out that wasn’t true. What he found waiting on the other side wasn’t a smaller life. It was a bigger one, with no ceiling he could find yet.

If any part of his story landed for you, that’s worth paying attention to. You don’t need a plan figured out right now. A quick conversation to feel seen and discuss where you are is a great start.

IAN FEE took his first drink at age one, handed a sip of beer by his own dad while sitting in a highchair. He grew up in the 1970s and 80s, when parents dipped a baby’s binky in wine and nobody thought twice about it. By the time he hit his twenties, drinking wasn’t just a habit. It was the whole architecture of his social life and his career.

Ian built a sales career on entertaining clients at bars, casinos, and golf courses. He called alcohol his superpower, the thing that let him build relationships and close deals. From the outside, it worked. From the inside, it cost him his health, his judgment, and eventually his second marriage.

In 2017, Ian checked into a ten-day rehab program built around aversion therapy, pairing real alcohol with a drug that made him violently sick. He walked out on Halloween and was served divorce papers in his garage forty minutes later. Almost a decade on, he’s rebuilt his mornings, his body, and his relationships from the ground up. His biggest lesson isn’t about willpower. It’s about who you let into your circle.

Show Notes

[00:00] Meet Ian Fee: Life of the Party, Turned Sobriety Advocate

* Ian is the author of Wild Ride to Sobriety, a memoir about what drove him to drink, what got him out, and what he found on the other side.

* He got sober in 2017 after building an entire identity, and career, around alcohol.

* His central argument: sobriety doesn’t take away who you are. It gives you better access to it.

Key Insight: “I caught how to drink very, very well.”

[01:41] Raised on Booze: A Childhood Built Around Drinking

* Ian’s first drink was at age one. His parents dipped his binky in wine and gave him sips of beer as a toddler.

* His parents were, in his words, “social alcoholics” and the life of the party. Daily drinking was never treated as a problem, it was just what everyone did.

* By grade school he could name every neighbor’s drink order and knew exactly when to refill a glass, a skill he says he still has today.

Key Insight: “Things are caught, not taught.”

[04:55] Building a Career (and an Identity) Around Alcohol

* Ian studied hotel management in San Diego and built his sales career on entertaining clients at bars, strip clubs, casinos, and golf courses.

* He believed getting clients liquored up was the key to building relationships and closing business.

* He was hosting people at his house five-plus days a week, sometimes 15 to 20 people on a random weeknight.

Key Insight: “I thought alcohol was my superpower... and boy was I wrong.”

[07:22] The Awkward Shift: Staying Social Without the Bottle

* When Ian stopped drinking, longtime friends and clients assumed something was wrong with him.

* He still takes clients out and stays social, he just doesn’t drink to do it.

* Watching his transformation has made several longtime clients sober curious, and a few have cut back or quit entirely.

Key Insight: “It’s such a ripple effect, the silent impact you’re making that you don’t even realize the reach that you have.”

[10:59] Rock Bottom and Rehab: Inside Aversion Therapy

* In 2017, Ian checked into Schick’s Shadow, one of only two facilities in the country offering aversion therapy for alcoholism at the time.

* The ten-day program paired doses of ipecac with real alcohol, training his body to associate drinking with violent nausea. He says the aversion still works today, almost a decade later.

* He walked out of treatment on Halloween, drove straight home, and was served divorce papers in his garage.

Key Insight: “Unless you’re right, nothing’s going to be right, no matter what you do.”

[16:56] Sobriety Was the Easy Part: Facing the Emotions Underneath

* Ian says quitting drinking was simple compared to processing decades of emotions he’d been numbing.

* He hired an accountability coach right out of rehab and still talks to her every week.

* He rebuilt his mornings around no phone for the first 30 minutes, breath-work, journaling, a cold plunge, and a page of reading before the gym. He lost 85 pounds in the process and credits Atomic Habits for the idea of stacking small changes over time.

Key Insight: “Getting sober was the easy part for me. Today you have all the emotions, all the things I was numbing for 40-plus years.”

[25:28] Creativity, Impact, and the Power of Your Circle

* For Ian, creativity isn’t art or a hobby. It’s making an impact by sharing his story so someone else can become a better parent, partner, or business owner.

* He tells people who want to get sober that their circle is the real obstacle. Changing who you spend time with is uncomfortable, but necessary.

* He’s already sketching his next book, tentatively titled Circle of Four or Power of Five, about how the people you run with decide where you end up.

Key Insight: “Your circle’s your problem.”

Key Quotes

“I caught how to drink very, very well.” - Ian Fee

“Things are caught, not taught.” - Ian Fee

“I was in the fast lane, in the fog, with the emergency brake on. Today it’s sunny skies, no emergency brake, and doing 90 in the fast lane.” - Ian Fee

“Unless you’re right, nothing’s going to be right, no matter what you do.” - Ian Fee

“Your circle’s your problem.” - Ian Fee

Resources Mentioned

Wild Ride to Sobriety - Ian Fee’s memoir, purchase link below.

Atomic Habits by James Clear - referenced as Ian’s model for stacking small habits over time.

Schick’s Shadow - the aversion therapy rehab program Ian completed in 2017, formerly with locations in Seattle and Florida.

Where to Find Ian Fee

Memoir - Wild Ride to Sobriety

Website - https://ianfee.com/

Your Next Step

Ian’s story keeps coming back to one idea: the people around you decide where you end up. Getting sober didn’t just change what he drank, it changed who he spent his time with, and that’s the part most people underestimate.

If you’re sensing that alcohol, or the circle built around it, might be capping what you’re capable of, let’s talk about it. Coaching starts with a single conversation, no pitch, just a look at what’s actually in the way.

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to Ryan Conklin, Noelle Richards, Jill DePhillip, CRNP-PMH, and everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to IAN FEE for his honesty and generosity in sharing his story. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Discover what becomes possible when you stop creating life through a filter. Let’s explore that together.

Jen Benford grew up carrying more than most people ever have to carry. Adopted at age two or three, moved through four homes before then, her aunt and uncle raised her in those first few formative years. Not finding out until she was 19 that she had six or seven half-siblings out in the world somewhere. Through all of it, she kept moving forward and kept the weight of it buried.

When alcohol entered the picture at 14, it did what it does. It made the buried stuff easier to ignore. By the time she was a Division I college athlete, then a corporate strategist, then a founder, she had spent decades performing for rooms that weren’t always designed for her. It wasn’t until she sat in a funeral home listening to strangers talk about a father she’d never met that something finally broke open in a way she couldn’t put back down.

Jen is five and a half years alcohol-free. She coaches creators, feelers, and rebuilders. She writes on Substack at the Divergent Talent Alchemist. And in this conversation, she said out loud some things she’d never said before.

SHOW NOTES

[05:27] The First Drink, the First Game, and What She Thought It Proved

Jen was 14, new to town, in the woods with high school friends, holding either a Busch Light or Natural Ice, something really disgusting.

* The feeling she described was immediate: something lifting off her brain. Stress gone. A switch flipped.

* She went home, got sick on her carpet and her pink Timberlands, flipped the rug over, and played the game of her life the next morning.

* That combination, the relief plus the invincibility, told her brain something it would take decades to unlearn.

* By college, she was a Division I soccer player who got injured her sophomore year and ended up at frat parties in a wheelchair. The party came to her.

Key Insight: “It felt like something lifted up off of my brain. I was like, oh, you know, this kind of feels interesting. Like I feel less stress. Where has this kind of been my whole life.” — Jen Benford

[09:04] Adoption, Instability, and the Weight She Carried Without Knowing

Jen was adopted at three, but the story started earlier than that.

* She lived in four homes before she was two or three. Her birth parents showed up at her aunt and uncle’s door. Nobody even knew they were pregnant.

* Her aunt and uncle raised her until circumstances led her to live with her blood grandmother, and after her grandmother passed, she was formally adopted.

* At 19, she found out about the half-siblings. Her uncle paid her birth mother five dollars to sign away parental rights. These were things she processed slowly, over years.

* She describes two things being true at once: deep gratitude for the family that raised her, and real grief for what happened before them.

Key Insight: “I went through life saying like, oh yeah, I was adopted into this family and it’s great and I’m so, so grateful. It’s like two things can be true.” — Jen Benford

[14:10] The Funeral That Became a Turning Point

When Jen’s birth father passed away, she was with her husband Hans. Her body reacted before her mind could catch up.

* She described it as “projectile, like everywhere” — a full physical response she now understands as her body finally releasing something it had been holding for years.

* At the funeral, strangers kept saying “Oh, look, it’s Jimmy’s daughter.” He had talked about her soccer career to people he’d never introduced her to.

* He had struggled with schizophrenia and had no car, no resources. But he walked to and from AA meetings and made the coffee for the group. People called him Coffee Pot. His purpose was to help others who were struggling.

* In the parking lot afterward, Jen opened a note in her phone. Two things: start her business and dedicate it to him. And cut out alcohol before she ended up where too many people in that room already were.

Key Insight: “I opened up a note in my phone afterwards and I was like, okay, two things. One, I’m going to start my own business and dedicate it to him. And two, I somehow need to cut out alcohol because specifically alcohol was the thing for me that really, like nothing good ever came from it.” — Jen Benford

[20:22] Going Cold Turkey and Reliving Everything

Her last drink was March 2021, the height of COVID.

* Cold turkey. No AA. Before she got there, she saw a neurologist, a psychiatrist, a psychologist. She committed to actually processing what she’d been carrying.

* The first three months were the hardest. When the suppressant disappears, the suppressed stuff surfaces.

* She was reliving breakups, old grief, old wounds, with a vividness that surprised her. Everything she had shoved down came back up clear.

* She stayed with it. She was in therapy. She didn’t slip.

Key Insight: “Once you pull that plug, everything comes up and now you don’t have a suppressant. While it was cold turkey, there were times where I was probably wanting to shove some stuff down. But I never did. I was just working. I was in therapy and I was working through processing a lot of this trauma that I had been carrying with me my whole life.” — Jen Benford

[24:44] Being Bullied in Middle School and What She Did About It

Jen had always felt a little different. And in middle school, that made her a target.

* Two girls were spreading rumors, threatening to fight her. On picture day, she took her hoop earrings out and put her hair up.

* A crowd formed in the hallway. One of the girls told her that her “real parents” gave her up because she wasn’t good enough. Said she was worthless.

* Jen had the books in her arms. When the girl bumped into her, she threw them.

* She never forgot that moment. Not because of the fight. Because of what it took to finally stop absorbing what other people were projecting onto her.

Key Insight: "Your real parents did this and gave you up because you weren't good enough. Like you're worthless. I would have given you up too. And I can feel like I was a very soft person leading up to this and I like feel like just the anger and the rage and the like everything coursing through my veins." — Jen Benford

[33:36] The Alphabet Soup of Diagnosis and What It Actually Helped Her Understand

ADHD at 29 or 30. CPTSD after that.

* She was in Gifted and Talented as a kid. The system missed a lot.

* She calls it alphabet soup — the medical system throwing terminology at you. But she doesn’t dismiss it either. The labels gave her access to rabbit holes that helped her understand her brain, her body, how she shows up.

* The triggers don’t disappear. That’s the thing she’s clear about. The body keeps the score. The work is learning to manage and still build something meaningful while that’s true.

* She sees the gaps: in schools, in the medical system, in homes. Kids aren’t taught to regulate their nervous systems, name what they’re feeling, or ask for help. Alcohol fills that void by default.

Key Insight: “The thing about it is the triggers don’t go away because the body does keep the score. And so it’s like how can you manage these things and build a life that you love and just be the best that you can for you and others while you’re here.” — Jen Benford

[39:11] What Life Looks Like Now

Jen and her husband live on a micro farm in North Carolina. Goats. Chickens. Ducks.

* Slow mornings. No alarm clock. Coffee with the dogs.

* She writes on Substack, coaches clients, consults on branding, and helps people build brands that start with identity before they ever touch strategy.

* She launched The Divergent Brand, a 12-week cohort for creators, founders, and people leaving corporate who want to build something built around who they actually are.

* Her encouragement for anyone thinking about walking away from alcohol: ask for help earlier than you think you need to. Get a mentor. You don’t have to carry it alone.

Key Insight: “I feel like days have got like double or triple as long and I’m able to savor those little moments, which are what make life worth living.” — Jen Benford

Key Quotes

“It felt like something lifted up off of my brain. I was like, oh, you know, this kind of feels interesting. Like I feel less stress. Where has this kind of been my whole life.” — Jen Benford

“I never realized how many emotions I was actually stuffing down until, you know, the last six or seven years.” — Jen Benford

“Once you pull that plug, everything comes up and now you don’t have a suppressant.” — Jen Benford

“I feel like days have got like double or triple as long and I’m able to savor those little moments, which are what make life worth living.” — Jen Benford

“In order to really understand yourself, I truly believe you have to do the work first, and then you can build your brand from there.” — Jen Benford

Resources Mentioned

* Trip by Calm — a supplement Jen uses with ashwagandha, L-theanine, and magnesium as part of her sobriety toolkit

* The Divergent Brand Cohort — Jen’s 12-week brand-building program starting July 14th, covering mission, vision, values, and personal brand development for early-stage founders and people reinventing themselves. Limited spots available.

* Therapy, neurology, psychiatry — Jen credits the combination of professional support as essential to her cold turkey process

* The concept of “the body keeps the score” — the idea that unprocessed trauma lives in the body, not just the mind

Where to Find Jen

You can also find her at BenfordTalentAlchemy.com and on Instagram and TikTok.

If you’re interested in The Divergent Brand cohort starting July 14th, reach out to Jen directly through her Substack or website below.

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to Florence Acosta, Noelle Richards, Katrina Sechrest, Flora Acosta, and many others who joined us live for this conversation, and to Jen Benford for her honesty and courage. She said out loud things she had never said before, and she did it all in front of you. That’s not a small thing.

From This Episode to Your Next Step

If this conversation stirred something in you, I want to hear about it.

Maybe you recognize the pattern Jen described — performing for rooms that weren’t designed for you, keeping the weight hidden, not quite sure what you’ve been carrying or how long you’ve been carrying it. Maybe alcohol has been the thing helping you not look at it too closely.

That’s exactly where a conversation can help. Not a sales call. Just a real talk about where you are, what you’ve been using to get through, and what might be in the way of the work you actually want to do.

No pressure. No pitch. Just a conversation.

I almost got off the bus.

Sitting there before we took off, bags being loaded, heart racing, I seriously considered stepping out and calling the whole thing off. Five and a half years sober, and fear still shows up in the body the same way it always did. What changed is what I do with it. I kept breathing. The bus started moving. And the shift happened.

This is the story of a five-day, 40+ mile trek through the Andes — from altitude sensitivity, the fear of not being able to complete the hike, to ceremonies on mountaintops and sitting cross-legged at Machu Picchu. It wasn’t easy. It was a very expansive experience. And there’s no question I would have been riding a horse up the mountain if I were still drinking.

The trip was organized by Ryan Lee and Capsule Adventures, a sober-based adventure travel company. I was excited to experience this first, then explore what it might look like to bring something like it to the community. I signed up. Intentionally avoided looking at the full itinerary. And boarded a plane to Peru.

Show Notes

[00:00] Arrival in Cusco — When Your Body Says “Wait, What Did You Sign Me Up For?”

* Cusco sits just over 12,000 feet of elevation. The altitude hits fast and it hits hard — heart rate over 110 just sitting at breakfast, physically shaking across the table from Ryan while he described what to expect.

* The hotel had an oxygen tank on site, which I used multiple times in those first days. I also visited a local medic — just $12 — and got altitude medication that made a real difference.

* A moment of unexpected beauty broke through the anxiety: standing on the street watching a parade of women in bright red dresses spinning past, men in green playing trumpets. “I almost started to cry. I pretty much started to cry because it was just that electricity, that joy feeling that comes like a rush through your body of like — I’m here in this country.”

* The group was small: Ryan, John, Kat, Abbie, and our guide Cesar from Alpaca Expeditions. That intimacy was just right.

Key Insight:

“When you’re told something versus when you’re feeling it is entirely different.” (Relating to the acclimation of the body in higher altitudes)

[09:39] Day One — The First Test, a Lagoon, and Learning to Move Slowly

* Day one was a test hike up to a mountain lagoon — steep incline, heavy breathing, taking breaks. I discovered how much I loved the slow rhythm of the climb. The physicality of it. One step at a time.

* At the top, it started hailing. A crystal blue lagoon sat in front of them with a white mountain in the backdrop. Worth every step.

* Learning more about Cesar and his background was fascinating. He’s been doing the Inca trail for 26 years — some months, back-to-back every week. “This human being — I don’t even think he’s a human being. He just looks like a mountain. It’s almost like he’s just connected to the mountain and the spirits there.”

* First ceremony with coca leaves: holding them toward the four directions, then placing them under a rock. A ritual of respect for the mountains.

Key Insight:

“I really enjoyed the climbing — the climb up. I loved the slow pace of it and the physicality of it.”

[17:36] Day Two — The Hardest Day (And It Showed)

* 5:00 or 5:30 AM start. Cold. A massive climb with the landscape shifting from green to rock. I noticed something about perspective: standing far back and looking ahead, your mind plays tricks on the distance. Getting to the next point and looking back — “there’s like no sense of time. I had no concept of like that felt like five minutes ago and maybe it was an hour.”

* We witnessed an avalanche on the mountain. Called “small” only because the mountain it fell from was enormous.

* At the top, another ceremony. A moment of stillness. “You’re so small. You’re so so small in comparison to these ginormous mountains and space and you just look up and you’re just a speck.”

* The descent was brutal. Old trail shoes with worn tread. Stone steps, slippery dirt, switchbacks. “The descent sucked. It was so f*****g terrible.”

* That night at the glass domes: high temperature, body aches, deep fear. I skipped dinner and laid in bed wondering I could go on. I ventured to the kitchen and had tea with Cesar. Nerves started to settle. Trust. Sleep.

Key Insight:

“My belief is that God is everything — like it’s this phone I’m looking at, it’s all of you. You feel that, especially in these environments where you’re so small.”

[29:06] Day Three — Into the Jungle, Waterfalls, and Hobbit Houses

* The terrain changed dramatically. Into the jungle. Waterfalls. Creeks running through the mountains. Each day felt like an entirely different world.

* Accommodations that night: “hobbit houses” — short brick structures with big round green doors, you had to duck your head to get inside.

* The personal chef who traveled with our group — hauling a massive backpack full of cooking equipment, music box playing — would pass the group on the trail and arrive ahead to have food ready when we got there. “Just absolutely mind-blowing and incredibly grateful for the delicious food.”

Key Insight:

“Each day was just so unique and just felt like totally different environments.”

[31:02] Day Four — The Fall, the Lost Phone, and a First Glimpse of Machu Picchu

* Longest mileage day. This day started with a climb through jungle, a stop at a coffee farm where we made coffee on site, and then a big push to a panoramic vista.

* From that vista, I saw Machu Picchu for the first time — “just this little speck very far away.” Then turned right and saw the Salkantay mountain they had come from. The scale of what we had covered hit differently from up there. “That view felt like HD.”

* On a tough descent through forest and rock, I took a hard fall — and realized his phone was gone. “In my mind, when that happened, I was like — that’s okay. That’s okay if I don’t have it. That was meant to be.” Cesar quietly took his time to come up to me with my phone in his hand. He got me. Big laughs.

* Along the trails, horses constantly moved through — the local “cars” for hauling materials through the mountains. We would call out “caballitos” and everyone stepped aside to let them pass.

Key Insight:

“That’s okay, that’s okay if I don’t have it. That was meant to be. And it’s all in here.”

[36:57] Day Five — Arrival to Machu Picchu

* Up at 4 AM. We climbed. Headlamp on, switchbacks in the dark, pausing to watch the clouds and mountain silhouettes take shape as the sun started to rise. “That was so, so beautiful.”

* Inside Machu Picchu: weed whackers everywhere, crowds, photo stations. If I’m completely honest — it felt a little like Disneyland at first. The expectation of the place was almost too loud.

* One of my favorite photos now: sitting cross-legged at Machu Picchu, looking out at the incredible landscape. Meditation has been part of my practice for over ten years. “I wanted that moment to last the whole day. I could just sit there and just feel the energy of the mountain and that space.”

* I did an add-on climb up Huayna Picchu — the steep mountain directly across from Machu Picchu. Tiny stone steps, metal guardrails, the scariest single climb of the whole trip. And the view from the top was its own reward.

Key Insight:

“How many thousands of years that different civilizations and people took to carve out this beautiful space — all these intentional things around astrology, where certain rocks are placed, how they would align with the stars.”

[45:09] Coming Home — The Contrast Is Real

* Back in the U.S., the post-trip integration has been hard. Health challenges. Difficulty returning to routine. The bigness of the experience hasn’t fully settled. “I had this very big, expansive experience and now I’m in this kind of contracting phase.”

* The sobriety lens on all of it: 5.5 years sober, I got to feel every moment — the fear on the bus, the joy of the parade, the exhaustion and the beauty and the fall and the ceremony. All of it unfiltered. “I get to have these experiences and get to feel the things that typically I would numb from.”

* A moment on day four said it all: some people in another group had stayed up until 3 AM drinking. “I couldn’t imagine having done this trip if I was still drinking.”

Key Insight:

“It’s all about the feelings — really just embracing all of it. That’s what I really appreciate. Now five and a half years sober, I get to have these experiences.”

Key Quotes

“I wanted that moment to last the whole day. I could just sit there and just feel the energy of the mountain and that space.” — Josh Woll

“That’s okay, that’s okay if I don’t have it. That was meant to be. And it’s all in here.” — Josh Woll

“My belief is that God is everything — like it’s this phone I’m looking at, it’s all of you. You feel that, especially in these environments where you’re so small.” — Josh Woll

“I get to have these experiences and get to feel the things that typically I would numb from.” — Josh Woll

“I couldn’t imagine having done this trip if I was still drinking.” — Josh Woll

Resources Mentioned

* Capsule Adventures (Ryan Lee) — Sober-based adventure travel

* Alpaca Expeditions — Trekking company; guides the Salkantay route

* Salkantay Trail — The route taken to reach Machu Picchu over five days

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to Silvi Demirasi, Nick Neve, Morgan Gibbs, Steve [Sage-Outlaw-Caregiver], Sarah Gaughan, and many others for tuning into my story! Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

If A Different Climb Is Calling You

Every step of this trek was taken clear-headed. Every fear felt, every ceremony honored, every fall survived — all of it fully experienced because alcohol wasn’t in the way.

That’s what sobriety makes possible. Not just the absence of drinking, but the presence of everything else.

If you’re curious what’s on the other side of that, The Sober Creative Method is a 90-day journey designed to remove alcohol as the barrier to your greatest work. It’s where the trek begins.

p.s. thought I would leave you with this photo of these insane pancakes I had. I’m still drooling about them.

Jill DePhillip, CRNP-PMH has spent years sitting with people at the hardest parts of themselves. As a certified registered nurse practitioner in psychiatric mental health, specializing in ADHD and addiction recovery, she brings something most credentials don’t come with: she’s been there.

Six years sober — since April 20, 2020 — she built a clinical practice, a writing life, and a clear understanding of who she is from pieces she once used as evidence against herself. What got her there wasn’t a clean arc. It was a lot of falling down, getting up, and eventually landing on one word that changed everything.

This conversation went deep on the ADHD-addiction connection, what it looks like when shame lives in the body, and what it actually takes to rebuild a life you didn’t think you deserved.

Show Notes

[00:00] Welcome and Introduction

* Josh introduces Jill DePhillip, a certified registered nurse practitioner in psychiatric mental health, whose clinical work focuses on ADHD and addiction recovery.

* Jill and Josh share a sobriety year — both got sober in 2020 — and they open by acknowledging how many people found the pandemic to be a turning point.

* Jill writes Still Growing on Substack, where she covers recovery, neurodivergence, and what it means to become more fully yourself.

Key Insight: “Recovering out loud is one of the most powerful things any of us can do.” — Josh’s introduction of Jill sets the tone: this isn’t a clinical conversation. It’s a human one.

[02:24] Growing Up, Losing a Father, and Living in Someone’s Shadow

* Jill grew up in Maryland, one year apart from her older brother — both raised in a family where drinking was normalized and expected.

* They lost their father to addiction in the late 1980s. Her brother was the all-star athlete and academic. Jill spent a lot of her early life in his shadow, fielding the buzzwords ADHD kids hear constantly: apply yourself, pay attention, why can’t you focus.

* She didn’t identify drinking as a serious problem until she was 19 or 20, when wine became what she describes as “the answer” to the noise she couldn’t name.

* Her brother is also in long-term recovery. The pattern ran through the family.

Key Insight: “It sits in the back seat now, just doesn’t drive the car — but it’s still a part of me every day.” — Jill on shame, and how she’s learned to challenge it without pretending it’s gone.

[05:52] Years of Relapses and Why It Was Never a Straight Line

* Jill’s first attempt at sobriety came at 26 — attending AA meetings far from home so no one would recognize her.

* What followed was years of relapses she now understands as deeply connected to undiagnosed ADHD: the impulsivity, the emotional dysregulation, the pattern of falling and getting up and falling again.

* She describes her pre-sobriety years honestly: unhealthy relationships, instability, overdependence, wasted opportunities, a lot of shame.

* She stayed out of AA for years telling herself her story wasn’t good enough to share. “No one’s going to want to hear my story. It’s not as good.”

Key Insight: “It’s a lot of falling down. It’s a lot of getting up. It’s a lot of shame, a lot of messiness, really, like many people.” — Jill, on a recovery story that doesn’t look like the highlight reel.

[11:00] The ADHD-Addiction Connection

* People with ADHD are two to three times more likely to struggle with addiction — and Jill says we need to talk about it more and study it more.

* For neurodiverse people, especially those who went undiagnosed, the shame loop starts early: adults who don’t understand what’s happening say “why are you so lazy” and “why can’t you just pay attention,” and kids absorb it as truth.

* When something comes along that quiets the noise — wine, food, anything — it doesn’t feel like a problem. It feels like a solution.

* Jill describes ADHD not as the bouncing-off-the-walls version people imagine, but as something internal: “electricity” that runs through the body all day.

Key Insight: “ADHD people live with this electricity in their body all the time. So you have... emotional dysregulation and it’s that electricity that you can literally hear and feel all the time. So the alcohol snuffs it out. It calms it.” — Jill DePhillip

[17:46] The Invisible Girls: Masking, Burnout, and Getting Overlooked

* One of the most overlooked at-risk groups for ADHD: high-achieving girls who are masking so well that no one sees the strain underneath.

* Jill tells her teachers who are patients: the kid with ADHD in your class might be your favorite student. Straight A’s. Quiet. A little anxious. Working ten times as hard as the kid next to her to get a B.

* These kids go home overwhelmed and overstimulated, but because they perform, no one asks the right questions.

* The result is burnout, and in the worst cases, elevated suicidal risk factors among high maskers who look, from the outside, like they have everything together.

Key Insight: “We reward the performance, right? We’re performing well so you get straight A’s — good job, that means you’re worth it. Questions about emotions, we’re not asking. About executive functioning — how are you functioning, are you resting, is this hard.” — Jill DePhillip

[29:30] Regulating a Nervous System That Doesn’t Fit the Template

* Cookie-cutter advice — “just go for a walk” — doesn’t account for the task paralysis, task initiation difficulty, and demand resistance that come with ADHD and autism.

* Jill’s approach is individualized: find what you already love, then build your regulation tools around that. If you love Pilates, Pilates becomes your nervous system regulation strategy.

* The neurodiverse brain needs interest, emotion, and connection to move. When you build from desire instead of obligation, the resistance drops.

* She’s clear: there’s no one answer, and the overwhelm of information out there can actually make it worse for people who are already overwhelmed.

Key Insight: “The neurodiverse mind needs novelty... Interest, emotion, connection. All of that needs to be there.” — Jill DePhillip

[35:00] Five Weeks in the Mountains and the Word That Stuck

* In 2020, during COVID, after missing two days of work from a relapse, people showed up from every corner of Jill’s life and said: go to rehab. She agreed.

* A car came and drove her eight hours to the mountains of Pennsylvania. She left her kids, went into a week of isolation — Valium, a bird feeder outside the window, and the Transformer movie Bumblebee on a DVD player slid under the door.

* She stayed five weeks. She was afraid to come home, so she asked for a sixth.

* What she carried out with her was one word: willingness.

Key Insight: “You have to have that 100% willingness to do whatever it takes to be sober and put that first, always, every single day, the next right thing. And that’s what I wasn’t doing all these times I fell on my face. So that was the shift for me.” — Jill DePhillip

[41:30] Building a Life Worth Coming Home To

* Recovery wasn’t just getting sober. It was a divorce, a period of loneliness, learning what boundaries were, and removing relationships that were harmful — family included.

* Jill tells her own kids: you have no obligation, family or not, to stay in a relationship that hurts you.

* The rebuilding process is slow and awkward. Your relationship skills aren’t great at first. But if you hold the boundaries, the right people show up.

* Today she has a practice she loves, a closet office with a ceiling fan, and a 12-year-old daughter she says is essentially her — five steps ahead of everything Jill did.

Key Insight: “The real people that want to stay and love you for you will show up. But they won’t if you’re hiding from it, or in your own way.” — Jill DePhillip

[45:50] What Jill Is Working On Now

* Coming September: an ADHD cohort. Eight to ten people, class format, eight weeks of 90-minute sessions focused on executive functioning skills.

* Originally designed for college students, but now open to anyone in transition: coming out of rehab, navigating divorce, or any life change that’s hard on a neurodiverse brain.

* Jill is also writing on Substack (Still Growing) and describes it as cathartic: “Whatever’s that theme, I’m writing about it, and it’s amazing.”

Key Insight: “All I can do is plant seeds. That’s about all I can do to help people. We can’t do anything else. We don’t have any control over anything other than the power that that is — is planting a seed.” — Jill DePhillip

Key Quotes

“It sits in the back seat now, just doesn’t drive the car — but it’s still a part of me every day.”— Jill DePhillip

“ADHD people live with this electricity in their body all the time. So the alcohol snuffs it out. It calms it.”— Jill DePhillip

“We reward the performance, right? Questions about emotions, we’re not asking. About executive functioning — how are you functioning, are you resting, is this hard.”— Jill DePhillip

“You have to have that 100% willingness to do whatever it takes to be sober and put that first, always, every single day, the next right thing.”— Jill DePhillip

“All I can do is plant seeds. That’s about all I can do to help people.”— Jill DePhillip

Resources Mentioned

* Jill’s Website: PlantingSeedsBH.com — including details on the September ADHD cohort

* Jill’s Substack: Still Growing — recovery, neurodivergence, and becoming more fully yourself

* Jill on Psychology Today and Pedway

* September ADHD Executive Functioning Cohort: Eight-week course, 90 minutes per week, for anyone in life transition (divorce, rehab, neurodivergent adults building new scaffolding)

* AA / 12-step programs — referenced throughout as part of Jill’s recovery foundation

Where to Find Jill

Website: PlantingSeedsBH.comInstagram: @plantingseeds (and variations — search Planting Seeds)Psychology Today and Pedway directories for clinical appointments

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you Florence Acosta, Noelle Richards, Jen Benford, and many others for joining us live for this conversation, and to Jill DePhillip, CRNP-PMH for her honesty, her clinical wisdom, and the courage it takes to show up as a full human being — not just a clinician. Your willingness to share the messy parts makes all the difference.

If Something Here Landed

Jill said it plainly: all she can do is plant seeds. Show up, share what she’s learned, and trust that it lands for the people it’s meant for.

Something in this conversation might have moved something in you. The electricity she described. The idea that you’ve been running on shame since you were a kid. The sense that you’ve been solving a problem alcohol was never going to fix.

If that’s where you are, I’d love to talk.

Not a sales call. Just a real conversation about what’s actually going on, what you want, and whether clarity is closer than you think.

Marya Hornbacher came out of rehab in her mid-20s not knowing how to make dinner. She could earn a graduate degree, but she couldn’t change a tire or make a doctor’s appointment. She’d been drinking and using since her early teens, and by the time sobriety arrived, basic life skills were largely theoretical.

What she built from that point forward is more than something. New York Times bestselling author. Pulitzer Prize shortlisted journalist. Award-winning writer across fiction, nonfiction, memoir, and journalism. And since 2022, a solo traveler living out of a camper, logging tens of thousands of miles across America, doing the kind of deep, ground-level reporting that doesn’t fly in and fly out.

This conversation covers the full arc: the hard fall, the night her BAC hit 0.45, the moment she realized she didn’t need alcohol to dance, the myth of the tortured creative she’s spent years dismantling, and what it looks like to build a life around craft and purpose. Marya is sharp, direct, funny, and clear-eyed in a way that only comes from having earned it.

Show Notes

[00:18] Introduction: Who Is Marya Hornbacher?

* Award-winning journalist and New York Times bestselling author with 25+ years of work across fiction, nonfiction, journalism, and memoir

* Shortlisted for the Pulitzer Prize; has written and taught extensively throughout her career

* Since 2022, has been living out of a camper and traveling across America, writing a weekly Substack called Going Solo at the End of the World

* Travels with her dog, Luna Moonbat

Key Insight: “She came out of rehab in spring, her words, like a snake with a brand new skin, too raw, too tender, uncalloused of belly, electric with nerves.” — Josh Woll, reading from Marya’s own writing

[03:01] The Hard Fall: Life Before Sobriety

* Marya started young and describes going down “hard and fast” — no gradual descent

* Got court-ordered to a 12-step program in her early teens; it didn’t land

* Became a runaway, got into boarding school, tried college, kept losing opportunities to addiction

* By her own account: “I kept being like, if I stop doing this, I will be able to think my way through this.” It didn’t work that way

Key Insight: “I took a drink and was face-first in the muck.” — Marya Hornbacher

[06:02] Rock Bottom: The Night That Led to Rehab

* In California in her mid-20s, family intervened — took her credit cards, her job, cleared out her apartment

* Got picked up by police, charged with resisting arrest and assaulting an officer; ended up in a psych ward

* BAC was 0.45 when she was admitted — a level that is, by any medical standard, life-threatening

* Given two choices by a social worker: Duluth Women’s Prison or rehab. She tried to choose a third option. There wasn’t one

Key Insight: “I got slapped into rehab and it saved my life, for sure it did.” — Marya Hornbacher

[08:45] New Orleans: The First Free Dance

* Barely sober, she went to New Orleans with a fiancé she could hardly remember agreeing to marry

* He wouldn’t dance. She went out on the floor anyway, in her mother’s white dress, with a Zydeco band playing

* Picked up a glass of wine out of habit, paused, and set it down

* That moment clarified something about who she was and what she didn’t need anymore

Key Insight: “I don’t need permission. I don’t need alcohol. I don’t need him. I don’t need to do anything except dance. And I would say that if I have a policy in my life, that’s about it right there.” — Marya Hornbacher

[10:00] Building a Life: Sobriety as Foundation

* Early sobriety wasn’t only about stopping substances — it was about figuring out how to be a person

* Tried the conventional path: marriage, house, hosting parties, what she calls being “a corporate trophy wife for a while”

* Eventually realized her values weren’t about money, titles, or diamond rings — they were about people, the world, and doing what she believed she was here to do

* Sobriety gave her the clarity to act in line with those values: “How would I have done any of that drinking or high?”

Key Insight: “Sobriety was part and parcel of how do I become the person that I don’t see in the world. I wanted to be the change. And whether I am or not isn’t actually the point. It’s that I can be, and I’m not inhibiting my ability to be.” — Marya Hornbacher

[14:50] Four Years on the Road: Going Solo at the End of the World

* In 2022, Marya bought a camper, shed most of what she owned, and started traveling America full-time

* Part practical: she couldn’t afford rent and keep writing. Eliminating housing overhead made continued work possible

* Part journalistic: she’d grown tired of “parachute journalism” — flying in, getting the quote, flying back to somewhere fancy

* Her method is to show up, come back the next day, and the day after that, until someone in a dive bar stops seeing her as a stranger

* Has spent the most time in red states and the Southeast, in places that rarely make the news cycle

Key Insight: “What I do best is sit down in a dive bar and then come back tomorrow and then come back the next day, until they’re like, who is the weird old broad in the corner, and someone comes and tells me what their town is, what they’re doing there, what they care about. That’s the road trip, really. It’s not a trip.” — Marya Hornbacher

[18:22] The Mad Artist Myth — and Why It’s Garbage

* The idea of the brilliant, drunken creative has always struck Marya as “exhausting and nonsensical”

* Her best work came from the 10 minutes between waking up and starting to drink — that window widened as sobriety took hold

* She’s watched readers who were drawn to her early work chase the “young, disastrous train wreck girl” image — she’s determined to outlive it

* Her position: the driving force of creativity is craft and the creative imperative, not trauma, not substances

Key Insight: “You do not have to be young and fragile to write powerfully. You have to be a powerful writer.” — Marya Hornbacher

[22:00] The Craft of Truth-Telling, Writing Practice, and What’s Next

* A core principle she teaches: the hotter the material, the cooler the language has to be — precise, clear writing serves hard truths better than overwrought prose

* Her view of writing as service: “The writers I read are doing a service to me. They’re seeing the world in a way I don’t see it. And I want to be able to provide that same service.”

* Daily practice: roughly three solid hours of generative work, usually late in the day after assignments are done — she notes 15 minutes also counts if that’s what you’ve got

* Her book, coming out spring 2027, adds to a long tradition of American road narratives — told from the perspective of a woman who went on the road because she was fleeing a predator and was broke, and what it took to do it without fear

Key Insight: “To describe something or observe something with precision and care is a way of loving. And this is my way of loving the world, is to observe it as clearly and as openly as I can. And that is — I truly believe — what I’m here to do.” — Marya Hornbacher

Key Quotes

“I took a drink and was face first in the muck.” — Marya Hornbacher

“I don’t need permission. I don’t need alcohol. I don’t need to do anything except dance. And I would say that if I have a policy in my life, that’s about it right there.” — Marya Hornbacher

“The hotter the material, the cooler the language has to be.” — Marya Hornbacher

“You do not have to be young and fragile to write powerfully. You have to be a powerful writer.” — Marya Hornbacher

“To describe something or observe something with precision and care is a way of loving. And this is my way of loving the world, is to observe it as clearly and as openly as I can.” — Marya Hornbacher

Resources Mentioned

* Wasted by Marya Hornbacher — her landmark memoir (referenced by listeners in the live Q&A)

* Going Solo at the End of the World — Marya’s weekly Substack, dispatches from the road

* Her upcoming book on solo life on the American road (coming spring 2027)

Where to Find Marya Hornbacher

* Website: maryahornbacher.com

* Instagram: https://instagram.com/marya.hornbacher

A Word Before You Go

This conversation touched something I keep coming back to with this show. The creative life doesn’t require chaos to be real. It doesn’t need substances to have weight. What it needs is the willingness to show up to the work, day after day, with as much clarity as you can bring.

Marya has been doing that for 25+ years. She’s done it broke, on the road, in dive bars, in camper parks, through hard things she didn’t ask for. And she’s produced some of the most precise, alive writing working today.

If something in this conversation stirred something in you — if you’re wondering what your work could look like by changing your relationship with alcohol — let’s talk.

A free call, no pressure, just a conversation about where you are and what’s possible.

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to Melinda Elena Lloyd 🌀, Noelle Richards, Joelle, Flora Acosta, everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Marya Hornbacher for her extraordinary clarity and honesty. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.