In Part One, Todd Wilson and I traced the surprising 70-year journey of the Church Growth Movement from Donald McGavran’s missionary vision of gospel saturation and people movements to the consumer-driven, attractional system many churches inherited.

In Part Two, we ask the harder question: What if the problem isn’t simply our model, but the operating system underneath it?

Todd shares the moment when he realized that a church could become remarkably effective at organizational growth without necessarily producing the kind of disciples and churches that reproduce generationally. His phrase becomes the thread running through the conversation:

How you add makes all the difference.

We talk about why programs and volunteerism can create a very different kind of fruit than relational disciple-making and everyday missionary living, why finances can reveal what an operating system is actually optimized to produce, and why simply installing a new “missional” or “microchurch” app may not change anything if the old operating system is still running underneath it.

We also get practical. What can leaders do if they are still serving inside an existing church system? Todd argues that the answer is not necessarily blowing everything up, but creating R&D spaces where genuinely new forms of disciple-making, mission, and church can develop without being forced to immediately conform to the old scoreboard.

And we look forward. What might the next era of the church look like if disciple-making became our primary growth engine, ordinary missionaries became our primary means of extension, and our best capacity-building genius was redirected toward multiplying people on mission rather than simply expanding institutions?

If you sense that something beneath the surface of church life needs to change, this conversation is for you.

Read the companion article and subscribe to StarfishyoU:
https://starfishyou.substack.com

Get Todd Wilson’s full book, summary edition, and audiobook free:
https://church-growth.org/#thebook

And perhaps the place to begin is much simpler than rebuilding the whole system:

What is the one next step Jesus is asking you to take?

What if the modern Church Growth Movement didn’t actually begin with megachurches, seeker-sensitive services, multisite campuses, or the familiar scoreboard of bodies, buildings, and budgets?

In Part One of this conversation, I sit down with my friend Todd Wilson, founder of Exponential and author of How Did We Get Here?, to trace the surprising 70-year journey of the Church Growth Movement. Todd went back to Donald McGavran, generally considered its father, and discovered something that reframes the whole story: McGavran was a missionary in India focused on gospel saturation, people movements, relational networks, ordinary missionaries, and multiplying churches.

So how did we get from that missionary imagination to the consumer-driven operating system so many churches inherited?

We follow that story through suburbia, consumerism, Robert Schuller, Bill Hybels, Peter Drucker, Bob Buford, Rick Warren, Purpose Driven, marketing, management, the rise of the megachurch, and the modern leadership industry. This is not a story about bad people or bad motives. It is a much more interesting and unsettling question: What happens when good missionary instincts slowly get absorbed into a different operating system?

Todd offers one line that sits underneath the whole conversation: “How you add makes all the difference.” A church can become remarkably effective at adding people without necessarily producing people who can reproduce the life of Jesus in others. If the fruit we produce becomes the fruit that multiplies, then understanding our operating system matters enormously.

If you’re asking how we got here, why so much of church life seems harder and more expensive while producing less of what we long for, and what God might be growing next, this conversation is for you.

Read the companion article and join the StarfishyoU Substack:
https://starfishyou.substack.com

Get Todd’s book and audiobook FREE:
https://church-growth.org/#thebook

Part Two continues the story and asks what it might actually take to escape the old operating system and recover a genuinely multiplying one.

In this Bonus Conversation of the Starfish and the Church podcast, Rob Wegner sits down with Rodrigo Cano of the Chicagoland Collective to explore disciple-making, microchurches, and gospel saturation across the complexity of Chicagoland. Beneath the stories of Aurora, house-to-house ministry, collaboration, and citywide networks is a deeper conversation about shifting from attraction to presence, planting disciple-makers instead of simply building programs, and what it looks like when the Church in a city begins acting like one Body.

If you’re hungry for ordinary disciple-making, microchurches that emerge from real relationships, collaborative leadership, and an ecosystem vision for reaching whole cities with the love of Jesus, this conversation is for you. Join the StarfishyoU Substack for free at ⁠https://starfishyou.substack.com⁠.

More from Rodrigo and the Chicagoland Collective
https://www.chicagolandcollective.com/

More from Community Christian Church Microchurches
https://www.communitychristian.org/microchurches

In this Bonus Conversation of the Starfish and the Church podcast, Rob Wegner sits down with Shane Boyd of Gathering of Nomads to explore disciple-making, microchurches, and decentralized mission among America’s growing nomadic RV community. Beneath the stories of campfires, travel, and life on the road is a deeper conversation about planting people instead of churches, rediscovering the missionary nature of the Church, and what it looks like when the Gospel begins moving again at the speed of relationships.

If you’re hungry for disciple-making that leads to multiplication, Jesus-shaped decentralized leadership, and simple missional expressions of the church, this conversation is for you. Join the StarfishyoU Substack for free at https://starfishyou.substack.com.

More from Shane and the gathering of Nomads

https://www.gatheringofnomads.com/

What if our discipleship isn’t actually making disciples?

In this Bonus Conversation, Rob Wegner and Peyton Jones challenge some of the most common assumptions about discipleship in the modern church. From “coffee cake Christianity” to the Great Commission, they explore how Jesus formed His disciples, why disciple-making often gets pushed to the margins, and where real multiplication actually begins.

If you’ve ever wondered why our systems don’t seem to produce movement, this conversation will hit close to home.

What if the biggest barrier to church multiplication isn’t strategy—but identity?

In this conversation, Rob Wegner and Brian Phipps dig beneath the surface of church growth to explore the deeper discipleship, healing, and leadership shifts required to move from addition to multiplication. They talk honestly about why multiplication is often slower, more personal, and more costly than leaders expect—and why obedience to Jesus matters more than competence or scale.

Drawing from Brian’s new book, Breaking the Addition Addiction, the conversation surfaces the heart-level issues that shape how leaders measure success, share ownership, and form disciples who actually reproduce. Together, they wrestle with questions every leader eventually faces:

• Why does multiplication feel so elusive?

• What has to heal in us before multiplication can happen through us?

• How do we release control and invite shared ownership without losing clarity or faithfulness?

This episode is especially for leaders who sense that something in the prevailing church growth narrative doesn’t quite line up with the way of Jesus—and are ready to imagine a more faithful, decentralized, disciple-making future.

Resources & Next Steps

👉 Join the StarfishyoU Substack for free:
https://starfishyou.substack.com

You’ll get access to free articles, assessments, tools, and reflections to help you pursue:

• Jesus-shaped, decentralized leadership

• Disciple-making that leads to multiplication

• Simple, missional expressions of the church

If you’re tired of chasing numbers and hungry for lasting fruit, this conversation is for you.

🎙️ Apostles: Generals, Gardeners…or Something Else?

In this Bonus Conversation, Rob Wegner, Alan Hirsch, and Brian Johnson gather over pizza to explore why apostolic leadership has become a crossroads moment for the Church.

They unpack two radically different visions: apostles as empire-building generals vs. apostles as humble architects who cultivate Gospel ecosystems. From Alan’s personal stories (including being recruited by a secret dominionist cabal) to reflections on the Seven Mountains Mandate, this conversation names the tensions—and offers a better way forward.

Listen in as they discuss:

• The dangers of power and platform without accountability

• Why we need both Pauline (pioneering) and Petrine (remissionalizing) apostles

• How dominion language drifts from the way of Jesus

• Practical steps for living into decentralized, relational, generative leadership

💡 For more resources, articles, and tools, visit starfishyou.substack.com.

Bonus Conversation: Same Vocabulary, Different Spirit

What happens when the same fivefold vocabulary is used—but fueled by a radically different spirit?

In this episode, Rob Wegner, Brian Johnson, and Alan Hirsch dive into the fork in the road facing the Church today. On one side: the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation, steeped in hierarchy, dominion theology, and Christian nationalism. On the other: the Spirit-distributed, Jesus-shaped model of Ephesians 4 ministry—where power is cruciform and every disciple is activated.

This conversation unpacks why fivefold leadership isn’t just a theological side note—it’s a discipleship crisis, a leadership reckoning, and a call to rewild the Church. Same vocabulary. Different spirit. Totally different outcomes.

🔗 Read the full companion article and join the conversation at starfishyou.substack.com

Bonus Conversation: The Rise of the Servant Equippers (ft. Lucas Pulley)

Episode Description:
What kind of leadership helps movements multiply without losing their soul? In this Bonus Conversation from the Hubology series, Rob, Brian, and Lucas Pulley (Tampa Underground) unpack the hidden role of servant equipers—those who quietly cultivate health, support microchurch leaders, and build only the structures the vine actually needs.

They explore the power of invisible leadership, the difference between hub teams and governing elders, and why you should never build what you don’t yet need.

Whether you’re planting your first microchurch or navigating how to scale a decentralized network, this conversation offers grounded wisdom, practical frameworks, and a whole lot of laughter (and hot pink cast drama).

🎧 More conversations, articles, and resources at: https://starfishyou.substack.com

#microchurch #disciplemaking #movementleadership #decentralizedchurch #starfishandthespirit

In this bonus episode, Rob and Brian tackle one of the most pivotal questions in movement leadership: When is it time to form a hub team? Drawing from years of experience with the Kansas City Underground, they explore why starting with structure can sabotage multiplication—and how waiting on the Spirit’s timing creates space for healthy, decentralized networks to flourish.

You’ll hear stories, biblical insights, and practical frameworks for discerning the right time to equip, coach, and convene through a hub team. Plus, learn about our free Hub Development Cohort and the KC Underground Intensive coming this summer.

👂 What You’ll Learn:
– Why forming a hub too early can kill a movement
– The three core functions of every hub team
– How to recognize emerging servant-equipers in your city
– The role of extraordinary prayer and fasting in network formation

📍 For more: starfishyou.substack.com
🌐 Apply for the next Hub Cohort: kcunderground.org