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Two of trail running's most beloved podcasts collide in this dynamic exploration of the sport's evolution, challenges, and future. The hosts of SubHub and Steep Stuff dive deep into trail running's identity crisis, debating whether "short trail" or "sub-ultra" better describes races under marathon distance – a conversation that reveals much about how we frame our sport's narrative.

The discussion moves through fascinating territory, examining how races can achieve iconic status in today's sponsorship-driven landscape. Can events survive without being part of major series like Golden Trail? The hosts identify community integration as the secret ingredient behind legendary races like Zegama and Mount Marathon, where locals have embraced these events as cultural touchstones rather than merely athletic competitions.

Perhaps most illuminating is the frank conversation about athlete longevity and economics. While shorter distances might extend competitive careers, financial realities often push talented runners toward ultras prematurely. Geographic advantages become starkly apparent as the hosts acknowledge how athletes based in trail running hubs like Boulder or California's mountain towns enjoy significantly better sponsorship opportunities than equally talented runners from other regions.

The episode culminates with a celebration of standout performers, highlighting athletes like Jen Lichter ("possibly the best mountain 50K runner on the planet right now"), Anna Gibson, and remarkably, Ryan Becker – a consistent podium finisher still without major sponsorship. Rising stars like Mason Copey, Taylor Stack, and Courtney Coppinger round out this insightful assessment of trail running's current competitive landscape.

Whether you're a competitive trail runner, industry insider, or passionate fan, this collaboration offers rare insight into the sport's growing pains and potential future. Follow both podcasts across all platforms and join the conversation about where trail running goes from here.

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Announcing a Collaboration Episode Between the Sub Hub Podcast & The Steep Stuff ! Dropping tonight at 11pm MST - we will be releasing a "State of Sub Ultra" episode ! Part 1 will be available on the Sub Hub Podcast and Part 2 will be available on the Steep Stuff Podcast ! We hope you can tune in !  

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Sarah Kushner captivates listeners with her remarkable journey from childhood jogs through Garden of the Gods to becoming the 2024 Pikes Peak Marathon Champion. With disarming honesty and warmth, she reveals how walking on to Baylor University's track team as a steeplechaser laid the foundation for her trail running success, despite never being the fastest collegiate runner.

What makes Sarah's story particularly compelling is her perspective on competition and community. While fiercely competitive (something she admits hides beneath her friendly exterior), she approaches running with refreshing balance. She's intentionally stepped away from the comparison trap of social media and start lists, focusing instead on her own progress and enjoyment of the sport. This mental approach, developed with coach Megan Roche, has been key to maintaining her passion for running.

Beyond her athletic achievements, Sarah's commitment to giving back stands out. She serves on the Pikes Peak Marathon board of directors, works as a Lululemon ambassador organizing community events, and coaches high school cross-country with special attention to developing runners who aren't naturally the fastest. This service ethic, rooted in her faith and family values, creates a powerful counterbalance to the often self-focused nature of endurance sports.

The conversation delves into practical aspects of her training too—balancing urban runs in Denver with weekend trail adventures, preparing for the elite Broken Arrow 46K race, and her aspirations to eventually tackle 100-mile distances. Throughout, her genuine love for the mountains and the running community shines through, making it clear why she's become such a beloved figure in Colorado's trail running scene.

Whether you're a competitive runner seeking performance insights or simply love stories of determination and community impact, Sarah's thoughtful reflections on finding meaning both on and off the trails will leave you inspired to pursue your own balanced path to fulfillment.

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Nestled in the Swiss Alps, Sierre-Zinal stands as perhaps the most competitive short trail race on the planet. It's the place where mountain running meets marathon speed in a showcase of pure athletic brilliance. To help break down this iconic event, host James Lauriello welcomes the perfect co-host – Bailey Kowalczyk, who scored a remarkable 5th place finish at the race in 2022.

Bailey paints a vivid picture of what makes Sierre-Zinal so special: "It has that European energy – people with enormous Swiss cowbells and even chainsaws at the summit creating this electric atmosphere." The course itself demands a unique combination of skills that few races require – starting with a punishing double vertical kilometer climb before traversing high alpine terrain and finishing with a quad-crushing descent. As Bailey explains, "You have to be a Jack of all trades to succeed here. It's fast, it's technical in sections, and the competition is relentless."

What truly separates Sierre-Zinal from other prestigious trail races is the depth of competition. The gap between first and tenth place is often remarkably tight, with mere minutes separating the top finishers in a race that takes elite men just over two hours and women around three hours to complete. The 2024 edition promises another spectacular battle with defending women's champion Jolene Chepchumba returning alongside a deep Kenyan contingent and a historically strong American field that could see multiple athletes crack the top 10.

James and Bailey offer detailed analysis of both the men's and women's fields, complete with their top-five predictions. With defending champion Kilian Jornet absent, the men's race appears wide open with Philemon Kirwa as the betting favorite after his second-place finish last year. For anyone passionate about elite trail running or looking for insight into one of the sport's most hallowed events, this comprehensive preview delivers expert commentary from someone who's stood on Sierre-Zinal's prestigious podium.

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Grant Colligan sits down with the Steep Stuff podcast to share his fascinating journey from Michigan flatlands to Colorado mountain peaks. Despite growing up in the Midwest without access to mountains, Grant developed into an elite trail runner while maintaining his career as a metallurgist.

The conversation explores how Grant's decorated collegiate running career at Colorado School of Mines (where he earned 10 All-American honors) ended abruptly—first by being tripped in his final cross country race, then by the pandemic canceling his track season. This unfulfilling conclusion led him to trail running in 2023, where he quickly found success with a podium finish at the Moab Trail Half Marathon.

Grant offers valuable insights into his training philosophy, maintaining a collegiate-style approach with two key workouts weekly rather than completely abandoning track principles for trail-specific training. "At the high level, you still have to be a really good runner to be a good trail runner," he explains, challenging the notion that trail success requires entirely different preparation.

We dive deep into his recent performances, including his impressive top-15 finish at the Broken Arrow 23K Golden Trail Series race and his near-podium at the GoPro Games 20K—all while recovering from a unique piriformis nerve injury that counterintuitively required more running to heal. Grant also discusses his upcoming European racing debut at the Golden Trail Series event in Austria and the legendary Sierre-Zinal, which he approaches with strategic humility.

Perhaps most fascinating is Grant's dual perspective as both competitor and coach at Colorado School of Mines, where he witnesses firsthand how collegiate runners are becoming increasingly "trail curious" as they recognize career opportunities in mountain running. Through his connection with Andy Wacker's Trail Team, Grant has found community and mentorship that have accelerated his progression in the sport.

Follow Grant on Instagram @gmoney_hoppin as he takes on Europe's most challenging mountain courses and pursues his goal of winning a US Mountain Running Championship.

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What happens when an elite athlete rejects pressure and runs purely for joy? Courtney Coppinger's remarkable transformation from burned-out track star to trail running standout offers a blueprint for finding success through authenticity and boundary-setting.

A Kansas native and All-American steeplechaser at the University of Kansas, Courtney's path took unexpected turns after representing Team USA internationally in 2019. She candidly shares her journey through multiple "retirements" from professional running, the personal struggles that led to identity crises, and the profound healing that ultimately brought her back to the sport—but on entirely different terms.

The turning point came when Courtney set an uncompromising boundary for herself: no nervousness, no pressure, no expectations. This radical shift in mindset coincided with joining the Brooks team, where she was refreshingly honest about wanting to be valued as a person and mentor first, rather than promising championship results. What followed was startling—a breakout 2025 season featuring podium finishes, race victories, and ultimately selection to represent Team USA at the World Mountain Running Championships.

Beyond the trail results, Courtney offers wisdom about balancing athletic pursuits with wholeness, describing how she's found fulfillment through coaching (co-founding Wild Rights coaching collective with Grayson Murphy and Rachel Tomajczyk), community-building, and embracing a life outside corporate constraints. Her perspective on success as something flowing from joy rather than striving provides a refreshing counterpoint to traditional athletic narratives.

Whether you're battling burnout, questioning your relationship with competition, or simply seeking a more sustainable approach to performance, Courtney's story demonstrates how honoring your authentic self can lead to unexpected breakthroughs—in running and in life.

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From collegiate rejection to trail running triumph, Sarah Carter's story is one of extraordinary resilience and self-discovery. After being cut from her university team and told she lacked potential, Sarah transferred to Colorado State University where she rebuilt her confidence and reignited her passion for running.

Our conversation dives deep into Sarah's remarkable capacity to overcome adversity – a quality that defines her athletic journey. She candidly shares the emotional toll of her college transfer, the years spent rebuilding her confidence, and how these experiences shaped her approach to professional competition. Rather than viewing setbacks as endpoints, Sarah sees them as redirection toward where she's meant to be.

We explore her recent success at the Tepe Pack Trail Golden Trail Series race in Mexico, where she secured an impressive 8th place finish despite coming off a significant glute injury. Sarah reveals how she managed this performance with minimal training, sharing the mental strategies that helped her excel when physical preparation wasn't ideal.

The discussion takes us through her partnership with Topo Athletic, training alongside elite runners in Boulder, and finding her sweet spot in distances up to 50K. Sarah offers valuable insights about the competitive nature of shorter trail distances and why patience in progression can yield better results than rushing to ultra distances.

What emerges is a portrait of an athlete who embodies grit and authenticity. Sarah's journey teaches us that our greatest growth often comes through our biggest challenges – a reminder that perseverance isn't just about pushing through physical pain, but about maintaining belief in yourself when others don't. Whether you're a competitive trail runner or someone facing your own obstacles, Sarah's story will inspire you to embrace the winding path to your highest potential.

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Ryan Becker and Lindsay Allison join the Steep Stuff Podcast fresh off their selection to the US Trail Running World Championship team, bringing listeners a candid glimpse into the realities of high-level mountain running while balancing demanding careers.

The conversation begins with Ryan's breakthrough performance at Broken Arrow 46K—a victory made more remarkable by the circumstances surrounding it. Working 70-80 hours weekly at a new job, Ryan nearly withdrew from the race entirely just days before. This work pressure paradoxically created the mental space for his best performance yet. Meanwhile, Lindsay shares her struggle with an unexpected asthma attack during her own Broken Arrow race, demonstrating the unpredictable challenges elite athletes face even with perfect preparation.

What truly distinguishes this episode is the honest discussion about the psychological aspects of achievement in ultrarunning. Lindsay articulates the surprising difficulty of "recalibrating" after reaching long-held goals: "Having been an underdog for seven years, now my mindset has shifted. Where do I get my motivation now?" This refreshing vulnerability reveals how success brings its own unique pressures and identity questions that athletes rarely discuss publicly.

Unlike many professional ultrarunners who can spend weeks training on course before major events, both Ryan and Lindsay must fit their world-class performances around full-time careers. Their strategies for maximizing limited training time and their practical approach to race preparation offer valuable insights for listeners navigating similar balance challenges.

As they look ahead to the grueling Speed Goat 50K with its 10,000+ feet of elevation gain, the couple shares course insights, nutrition strategies, and reflections on how the increasing depth of competition is transforming the sport. Their genuine love for mountain running shines through every segment of this conversation.

Join us for this fascinating discussion about finding excellence in both career and ultrarunning, and discover how two of America's top mountain runners approach the delicate balance between professional ambition, athletic achievement, and finding joy in the journey.

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Meet Scott Klingonsmith, a rising star in the mountain running scene who's ready to take on one of America's most challenging ultramarathons. At just 20 years old, this Utah-based athlete brings fresh energy and strategic thinking to the grueling Speed Goat 50K.

Scott shares his fascinating journey from dabbling in ultras to deliberately focusing on shorter trail races to build speed, and now returning to test himself against the punishing 11,000 feet of elevation gain at Speed Goat. What sets Scott apart is his methodical preparation – he's been exploring the course's notorious rocky back section that has "ruined a lot of people's races," working closely with his Hoka coach Emily Schmitz to build the specific strength needed for Speed Goat's relentless terrain.

The conversation dives deep into Scott's race strategy and nutrition plan, revealing the thoughtful approach of an athlete wise beyond his years. Rather than relying on conventional gels, Scott has dialed in a liquid nutrition strategy delivering 90 grams of carbohydrates per hour, carried in a combination of waist-mounted and handheld bottles. His racing approach balances competitive ambition with practical wisdom, as he plans to maintain contact with the lead group while recognizing when to make strategic moves on the course's long descents.

Coming off an impressive top-20 finish at the US Mountain Running Championships at Sunapee, Scott represents the exciting next generation of mountain runners from the Wasatch. As host James Lariello notes, Speed Goat has historically launched the careers of Utah-based trail stars like Hayden Hawks and Christian Allen – could Scott be next? Join us for this illuminating conversation that captures both the technical preparation and the infectious enthusiasm of trail running's rising talent.

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From defending 28K champion to 50K challenger, Robin Lesch brings her trademark consistency and strategic approach to this year's Speedgoat 50K. The mountain ultrarunner from Durango shares a refreshingly honest assessment of her racing philosophy: "I'll either blow up, and that'll be a learning, or I won't, and that'll be a learning."

Robin's consistency across diverse race distances and terrains stands out in a sport where many experience dramatic performance swings. She attributes this to her measured racing style—staying within herself during the first half before hunting down competitors in the latter stages. With coaching from Robbie Britton for four years, she's developed a dependable approach that regularly lands her near podium positions.

Training in Durango provides the perfect playground for mountain race preparation. With the La Plata Mountains essentially in her backyard and the San Juans just an hour away, Robin has easy access to punishing vertical gain—ideal for preparing for Speedgoat's brutal 11,000 feet of climbing. She's also simplified her nutrition strategy over time, moving away from complicated plans to focus primarily on gels and water, with her sister Celia providing crucial crew support during the race.

What truly sets Robin apart is her mindset toward goal-setting. Rather than fixating on placement or times, she focuses on process-oriented objectives: pushing hard on specific sections or maintaining a higher effort throughout. This approach allows her to concentrate on her own performance rather than getting caught up in what others are doing. As women's ultrarunning continues to evolve with increasingly competitive fields, Robin's thoughtful approach to racing and training offers valuable insights for runners at all levels looking to find consistency and joy in mountain ultras.

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