The Twenty One Clear Podcast

For 25 years, Tony Simmons sold construction cranes. Then a phone call brought him home to Avery Island, Louisiana, and into McIlhenny Company, his family's company and the maker of Tabasco, where he became the seventh family CEO.

In part one of our three-part conversation, Tony walks me through the basics of a 158-year-old family company, from Edmund McIlhenny's start as a destitute banker after the Civil War to a family home kept for 208 years.

Then we turn to his own path: being told not to plan his life on joining the business, a board seat he never asked for, 12 years as his cousin Paul's understudy, and why he thought about the job the way a physician does: First, do no harm.

21C Links

• Twenty One Clear website: https://www.21clear.com?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-15-do-not-plan-your-life-on-it&utm_content=show-notes
• Adam Hatcher on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher
• Subscribe to the Twenty One Clear newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/
• Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/fIBHaZJ5oEk

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Chapter Timestamps
(00:00) Cold Open: One Red Thing, a Million Red Things
(00:15) Welcome and Introduction: Meet Tony Simmons
(02:44) McIlhenny Company by the Numbers
(04:34) Edmund McIlhenny, From Destitute Banker to Founder
(06:35) Avery Island, McIlhenny Company and Tabasco
(10:15) "Don't Plan Your Life On It"
(12:16) Twenty-Five Years in Cranes
(15:16) A Surprise Board Seat and 12 Years as an Understudy
(17:29) What an Outside Career Teaches
(19:10) The Seventh Family CEO: First, Do No Harm
(21:15) The Burlesque Opera of Tabasco
(25:34) Drift and the Long Horizon
(26:31) Coming Up in Parts Two and Three

The script flips. After two episodes of Adam interviewing Norm Smallwood — co-founder of The RBL Group and Adam's collaborator in restructuring his own family's company — Norm turns the tables and interviews Adam. They cover why Adam started Twenty One Clear, the inner family business hiding inside every family company, why succession is nothing like a baton handoff, and the two words Adam gives every family that works together: Do Not Drift. The episode closes with an impromptu case study from Norm's own consulting work, where an HR leadership succession project took a sudden inner family business turn.

21C links

• Twenty One Clear website: https://www.21clear.com?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-14-the-company-and-your-inner-family-business&utm_content=show-notes
• Adam Hatcher on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-14-the-company-and-your-inner-family-business&utm_content=show-notes
• Subscribe to the Twenty One Clear newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ep-14-the-company-and-your-inner-family-business&utm_content=show-notes
• The RBL Group (Norm Smallwood): https://www.rbl.net/?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-14-the-company-and-your-inner-family-business&utm_content=show-notes
• Episode 12, Four Stages of Leadership, Part 1: https://21clear.transistor.fm/episodes/four-stages-of-leadership-part-1-stages-1-3?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-14-the-company-and-your-inner-family-business&utm_content=show-notes
• Episode 13, Four Stages of Leadership, Part 2: https://21clear.transistor.fm/episodes/four-stages-of-leadership-part-2-stage-4-and-the-stages-importance?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-14-the-company-and-your-inner-family-business&utm_content=show-notes

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Episode produced by: https://snapmarket.co

Chapters

[00:00] Welcome and Setup — Adam flips the script: after two episodes interviewing Norm Smallwood, Norm interviews him

[02:29] What Makes a Great Family Company — Full valuation for your size and industry, plus real impact, at any scale

[03:47] Why "Twenty One Clear" — A 70-year-old family company, and mixing the unconditional with the conditional

[07:59] The Question Behind the Firm — Why some family companies seem chaos proof and others lose value and relationships

[09:30] Inside "Chaos Proof Your Business" — Who the book is for and the question it wrestles with

[11:59] The Inner Family Business — One box inside another, and what the Chick-fil-A thought experiment reveals

[13:51] The Hardest Management Job on Earth — Why a family exit is fundamentally different from any other departure

[15:15] Norm's Case Study — A chairman's succession plan for a son who never wanted the job

[17:38] Succession Is Not a Baton Handoff — Two archers, 50 yards apart, and why the arrows must meet mid-air

[18:49] Do Not Drift — The one concept Adam gives every family company

[19:33] The Family Is a System — How one raise reaches every family member, inside the company and out

[21:41] The Headlines Exercise — Surfacing unsaid expectations before they walk into the boardroom

[23:24] Twenty One Clear in Five Years — The roadmap families need and the chaos proof framework

[26:31] Why a Template Is Not a Facilitator — What AI can draft and what it can never do in a family meeting

[28:53] Final Advice — Do Not Drift, and open the lens as wide as you can

[30:54] The Third Word — What Adam's sister and the family council gave back to the company

[33:24] Closing — Continue to write your story

Part two of Adam's conversation with Norm Smallwood, co-founder of The RBL Group, picking up where Episode 12 left off. Norm and Adam move into stage four, otherwise known as "power", of Norm's four-stage leadership model. They then work through what it costs a family business when people are operating below the stage their role requires, why self-diagnosis of your own stage almost never works, and what it looks like to build a great career and a great company without ever needing to become stage four yourself.

21C links

• Website: https://www.21clear.com?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-13-four-stages-of-leadership-part-2&utm_content=show-notes
• Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-13-four-stages-of-leadership-part-2&utm_content=show-notes
• Newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ep-13-four-stages-of-leadership-part-2&utm_content=show-notes
• The RBL Group (Norm Smallwood): https://www.rbl.net/?utm_source=twenty-one-clear&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ep-13-four-stages-of-leadership-part-2&utm_content=show-notes
• Episode 12, Part 1: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-twenty-one-clear-podcast/id1811403547
• Ask Adam for Norm's Four Stages assessment. Email: [email protected]

Bumper music: "Still Hot" by Nic D, Connor Price © Lossless, 2023

Episode produced by: https://snapmarket.co

Chapters
[00:00] Welcome and Recap
[03:09] Naming Stage Four
[06:23] When Stage Fours Collide
[08:53] You Can't See Your Own Stage
[13:12] The Real Cost Isn't Bob's
[16:15] Succeeding at Every Stage but One
[17:32] What Makes a "Sue"
[20:45] What Buyers Are Actually Buying
[23:28] Quality of Leadership as a Line Item
[25:22] Willie G. Davidson and "Sounded Like a Harley"
[26:00] Julian Van Winkle and Making It "Taste Like Pappy"
[28:35] You Don't Have to Be Stage Four to Win
[29:45] Where to find Norm's four-stages assessment and how to reach Adam

In this first of two parts, Adam Hatcher sits down with Norm Smallwood, co-founder of RBL Group and a longtime collaborator in Adam's own family business journey, to unpack the four stages of leadership.

The framework, rooted in decades of research on how professionals contribute over time, gives family business leaders a practical language for two of the most common fears they may face: Am I actually seen as a strong performer? And are the family members I'm responsible for performing at the level this company needs?

Episode Links

• Website: https://www.21clear.com
• Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher
• Newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/
• RBL Group: https://rbl.net
• The Leadership Code (book): https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Code-Five-Rules-Lead/dp/1422119017/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1B26WGHNHQ6VK&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.838JgtClYdMg4F3r2ARzvCthyMzkEj4gGOv8NG00GHtSNPWV7lwBru9aOWpjJIdEWVfa0yrm8wjqnfY9uUC1eZ_CKIBHbdAWzOY4vLrmzDgT6AgJaTL2adE27iKDWUhi5nDye2TXJJi4DRUxOQdejq6msmfQVXNBBb_BxZIfLGN85fVJnM9B4qAU7HIFVavJxo3CZXHawE78UW0oqje5vokaFeUZ8cQgFmfT5TvOSd4.2QPaWp6sU8o1M31W8ScJ7hWMfSAjeliNX3qNGYa0tZA&dib_tag=se&keywords=leadership+code&qid=1781721087&sprefix=leadership+code%2Caps%2C207&sr=8-1

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Episode Produced By: https://snapmarket.co

Chapters
[00:00:05] Introduction
[00:04:26] Background
[00:05:36] The Two Fears
[00:07:04] The Origin
[00:11:15] Stage 1: Dependent Contributor
[00:13:54] The Prosecutor Story
[00:14:56] Stage 2: Independent Contributor
[00:18:03] Stage 3: Contributing Through Others
[00:21:01] The External Benchmark
[00:23:05] Super Expert vs. Integrator
[00:26:33] Does Stage 3 Require a Team?
[00:29:42] From Me to Us
[00:33:19] Reinvention and Novation
[00:36:35] "Am I As Good As My Title?"
[00:38:56] Availability vs. Qualification
[00:41:00] Close and Preview

Following on from last month's panel from Kennesaw State's Family Enterprise Center, Adam returns to have a conversation with Andrea Carpenter of The Transition Strategists. And this time they get practical: how to take a pulse on your life in the family company, the three questions every family member should keep asking, the headlines exercise that opened the door to Adam's own transition, and a LinkedIn story from a former CEO that shows the cost of an abrupt exit.

Episode links

• Andrea Carpenter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreakcarpenter/
• Your Next Gen Friend Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6QTytzkOKwGIEaOGRI5fec?si=fiANnFm_Sty0Ff78tgjnQA
• The Transition Strategists: https://transitionstrategists.com/

21C Links

• Twenty One Clear website: https://www.21clear.com
• Adam Hatcher on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher
• Subscribe to the Twenty One Clear newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/

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Still Hot by Nic D, Connor Price | (c) Lossless, 2023

Episode Produced By
https://snapmarket.co

Chapters
[00:00] Welcome and Recap — Following up on Episode 11's Kennesaw State panel
[02:00] My Thirteen Years and Why "General" Titles Drift
[04:30] The Two Roots: Open Dialogue and Twenty Years of Family Meetings
[07:00] If You've Never Held a Family Meeting, Start Here
[09:30] Opening the Door When You're the Next Generation
[12:00] "Build a Great Company With a Strong Family" — The Opening Line
[14:30] Andrea on Who Starts the Conversation
[17:00] The Three Questions Every Family Member Should Ask
[20:00] Engagement Isn't Automatic — Reward, Recognition, and Development
[23:00] Andrea's Objectives Matrix and Defining Your Deal Breakers
[25:30] The Headlines Exercise: How I Stepped Out of My Roles
[28:00] Pete's Story From LinkedIn — The Cost of an Abrupt Exit
[29:30] Closing — How to Keep Thinking About Your Inner Family Business

In this latest episode of the Twenty One Clear Podcast, Adam Hatcher joins a Kennesaw State University Family Enterprise Center panel hosted by Stephanie Davis. Adam's fellow panelists were Jacqueline Jensen and Leslie Oubre, both of whom left their family companies mid-career. 

Together they answer three questions: 

1. Was leaving a gradual or acute process? 
2. What was the emotional impact? 
3. And what would they do differently or tell someone else going through it?

Links from the Episode

• Please note that when the full webinar recording comes out, it will be here on KSW's YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/@familyenterprisecenteratksu?si=KxGEKf77MaETtfK6
• Kennesaw State University Family Enterprise Center: https://www.kennesaw.edu/coles/centers/family-enterprise-center/index.php
• Stephanie Davis LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanie-davis-b467b28
• Jacqueline Jensen LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ja-bizcoach
• Leslie Oubre: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leslieoubre

21C Links

• Twenty One Clear website: https://www.21clear.com
• Adam Hatcher on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher
• Subscribe to the Twenty One Clear newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/

Chapters
(00:00) Introduction
(02:30) Was leaving gradual or acute?
(08:00) Family meetings as the mechanism
(11:30) The emotional impact
(17:00) The steamroller CEO story
(20:30) Jacqueline on identity
(27:00) The three hats framework
(33:00) Leslie on admitting the truth
(37:00) Emily P. Freeman's framework
(41:30) Leslie's step-by-step approach
(45:00) Closing

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by Nic D, Connor Price
(c) Lossless, 2023

Episode Produced By
https://snapmarket.co

In this episode of the Twenty One Clear Podcast, Adam Hatcher welcomes back Melissa Mitchell-Blitch, author of In the Company of Family: How to Thrive When Business is Personal, to explore how flexibility shapes boundaries and decision-making in family businesses.

Together, they unpack the difference between thoughtful exceptions and destructive entitlement, share real-life stories of unintended consequences, and offer practical tools for addressing responsibility among family owners.

With their professional expertise, lived experience, and honest reflections, this episode delivers essential insights for families who want to strengthen both their company and their relationships. Tune in to discover how conversations about rules, consequences, and ownership can chaos-proof your family business.

Links for Melissa
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissamitchellblitch
Website: https://melissamitchellblitch.com/
Book: In the Company of Family: How to Thrive When Business is Personal  - https://www.amazon.com/Company-Family-Thrive-Business-Personal/dp/0578761459?sr=8-1

21C Links
Twenty One Clear website: www.21clear.com
Adam Hatcher on LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher
Subscribe to the Twenty One Clear newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/

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by Nic D, Connor Price
(c) Lossless, 2023

Episode Produced By
https://snapmarket.co

Chapters
(00:00) Introducing Flexibility in Family Business
(02:45) Understanding When to Bend Rules
(05:31) Considering Consequences of Flexibility
(12:22) Practicing with Low-Stakes Decisions
(18:18) The Dangers of Entitlement
(20:27) Clarifying Responsibility in Family Roles

Join host Adam Hatcher as he welcomes Melissa Mitchell-Blitch, author of In the Company of Family: How to Thrive When Business is Personal, for an exploration of family business dynamics and the essential role of boundaries. Melissa draws on her journey from wealth advisor to family business consultant, revealing hard-earned lessons about the emotional and organizational challenges that come with working alongside loved ones. Discover why boundaries are an essential framework that protects both business ambitions and family relationships. This episode offers practical insight for anyone navigating the unique complexities of running a family company.

Links for Melissa

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissamitchellblitch
• Website: https://melissamitchellblitch.com/
• Book: In the Company of Family: How to Thrive When Business is Personal  - https://www.amazon.com/Company-Family-Thrive-Business-Personal/dp/0578761459?sr=8-1

21C Links

• Twenty One Clear website: www.21clear.com
• Adam Hatcher on LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher
• Subscribe to the Twenty One Clear newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/

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Still Hot
by Nic D, Connor Price
(c) Lossless, 2023

Episode Produced By
https://snapmarket.co

Chapters
(00:00) Introducing Boundaries in Family Business
(01:47) Melissa’s Journey from Finance to Family Dynamics
(04:48) The Cost of Technical Advice without Family Focus
(06:16) Motivations Driving Family Decisions
(10:12) Learning to Address Family Dynamics Professionally
(12:36) Defining Boundaries and Their Role
(15:11) Practical Examples and The Freedom of Boundaries
(18:32) Boundaries That Are Fair, Firm, and Friendly
(20:28) The Intensely Personal Nature of Family Business Decisions
(21:11) Setting Up the Discussion on Flexibility for Part Two

In this episode, Adam Hatcher reflects on his own journey of joining the family business and the realities that come with stepping into a company run by relatives.

Featuring a conversation with Andrea Carpenter, president of Transition Strategists and host of Your Next Gen Friend podcast, the discussion unpacks firsthand stories about generational expectations, mixing family ties with company roles, and the challenges of growing into leadership.

Listeners will gain honest perspectives on navigating tension, building independence, and chaos-proofing the family business from someone who has lived it. If you’re considering bringing family into your organization—or are part of one already—this episode brings practical insight for every stage of the journey.

Links for Andrea Carpenter

• Website: https://transitionstrategists.com/
• Your Next Gen Friend Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/your-next-gen-friend-a-successors-guide-to-business/id1821493103
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreashaver
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yournextgenfriend/

21C Links

• Twenty One Clear website: www.21clear.com
• Adam Hatcher on LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher
• Subscribe to the Twenty One Clear newsletter: https://21clear.substack.com/
• Subscribe to the podcast and listen to the previous three episodes that this episode builds upon: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-twenty-one-clear-podcast/id1811403547

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Still Hot
by Nic D, Connor Price
(c) Lossless, 2023

Episode Produced By
https://snapmarket.co

Chapters
(00:00) Reflecting on Joining the Family Business
(02:56) Advice from Other Family Business Leaders
(06:30) Value of Independent Experience
(11:05) Generational Stories and Building on the Past
(15:15) Navigating Authority and Tension in Leadership
(20:00) Mixing Family and Business Dynamics
(27:00) Honest Conversations and Growth Decisions

In this episode of The Twenty One Clear Podcast, Adam Hatcher takes us into Part 2 of Chaos Proofing Your Family Hiring by focusing on the essential and highly practical steps required for chaos-proofing the hiring of family members in a family business.

Drawing on real-world stories and experiences, Adam explores how to set clear hiring criteria, including matching family to actual jobs, and the risks involved in joining the family company.

He also shares practical strategies for onboarding new family employees and highlights the importance of addressing these issues before the next challenge hits.

If you want to grow your company and keep your family strong, this episode delivers experienced guidance you can put to work right away.

21C Links

• Twenty One Clear website - https://21clear.com
• Adam Hatcher on LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/adamhatcher
• Subscribe to the Twenty One Clear newsletter - https://21clear.substack.com/

Bumper Music
Still Hot
by Nic D, Connor Price
(c) Lossless, 2023

Episode Produced By
https://snapmarket.co

Chapters
(00:00) Recap of Chaos Proof Hiring Framework
(03:15) Matching Family Members to Actual Jobs
(09:18) Risks of Joining the Family Business
(15:08) Vigorously Onboarding Family Employees
(26:10) Early Preparation and Family Meetings