Ellen Kay, Founder of Neuro8, joins Mick for a remarkable conversation that spans thought-controlled drones, neuroscience, defence trials, and the inner workings of human performance. From a Special Forces Defence Expo coffee conversation to a live US military trial flying drones by thought alone, Ellen reveals why lasting change — in people and organisations — is always an inside job.

## Key Topics

- The drone trial: How Ellen worked with US military operatives to fly drones using brainwave activity alone, and what the AI-driven linguistic analysis revealed about deep personal change

- The brain-body loop: Why 95% of who we are is fixed by age 35 — and how to work with the 5% window for genuine transformation

- Stress, performance, and coherence: The critical difference between short-term stress (useful) and chronic stress (destructive), and how nervous system coherence unlocks peak performance

- The operative who struggled: The most instructive case from the trial — a participant whose self-reported success was contradicted entirely by the data

- Engineered serendipity: Why showing up, having the coffee, and sharing what you are passionate about is a deliberate strategy, not luck

- Hyper-enabled operators: The vision of serving personnel — and leaders — who can perform optimally with or without technology

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom

- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102

- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Ellen Kay is Founder of Neuro8, a neuroscience-based change and performance training company. She has worked across corporate, cyber security, and defence sectors, and led a landmark thought-control drone trial with US military operatives.

- LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/ellenkay

- Website: https://neuro8.com

- Email: [email protected]

## Episode Overview

Mick is joined by Philip Atkinson — founder of Hive-Logic, executive coach, beekeeper, and author of BeeWise: 12 Leadership Lessons from a Busy Hive. Together they explore what bees can teach us about communication, continuous learning, team design, and the underrated art of ending things well. This is one episode where no bee metaphor needs forcing — it's baked in from the start.

## Key Topics

- Communication in the dark: Why the waggle dance is a masterclass in consistent, repeatable messaging — and what CEOs get wrong about email

- The bee career model: How bees rotate through seven distinct roles before they ever fly, and what that means for continuous learning in a world of unknown future jobs

- Two types of teams: The critical difference between interdependent and extra-dependent teams, and why treating them the same is a systemic failure

- Endings matter: Why organisations are brilliant at starting things and terrible at closing them — and the burnout cost of too many open apps

- Don't let history restrict the future: Philip's signal — past performance, past titles, and past structures are poor guides to what's needed next

- Curiosity as competitive advantage: Why killing curiosity in organisations isn't just bad for performance — it's bad for civilisation

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom

- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102

- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Philip Atkinson — Founder & Team Coach, Hive-Logic

- Website: https://hive-logic.com

- Book: https://beewisebook.com

- LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/philipatkinsonhivelogic

- Email: [email protected]

All proceeds from BeeWise go directly to [Bees for Development](https://beesfordevelopment.org), supporting families in developing countries to build beekeeping businesses.

Susie Palmer-Trew, founder of Everyday Change and author of 'The Everyday Change Playbook (because change doesn't need to be shit)', joins Mick for a refreshing conversation about making change work for real humans. From her background as a student union president to building a business that champions everyday change over transformation theatre, Susie brings a grounded, no-nonsense perspective to how organisations can actually get things done.

## Key Topics

• Why we inflate everyday change into massive 'transformations' and who benefits from this theatre

• The reality that most change is just normal people doing normal things in normal ways

• How Big Four consultancies set the rules of the game and why we all play along

• Finding leadership at every level of the organisation, not just in the C-suite

• The importance of adult-to-adult conversations instead of parent-child dynamics

• Using AI practically to free up time for actual human interaction

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom

- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102

- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Susie Palmer-Trew is the founder of Everyday Change and The Grove Club. She's written two books: 'Project Management is All Bollocks' (co-authored with Peter Taylor) and 'The Everyday Change Playbook (because change doesn't need to be shit)'. Connect with Susie on LinkedIn where she shares candid insights about making change work for real people in real organisations.

Mark 'Moose' McGrath has dedicated his career to preserving and building upon John Boyd's authentic work, rescuing it from the simplified 'circle diagrams' pushed by those who may not know it's true meaning. In this episode, we explore the real depth of Boyd's thinking, from Destruction and Creation to the OODA 'loop' sketch, and how it applies to modern challenges including AI adoption.

## Key Topics

- Why Boyd's work is widely misunderstood and how to access the authentic material
- The critical importance of 'Destruction and Creation' as Boyd's foundation
- How the Marines adopted Boyd's thinking whilst other services didn't
- Orientation as the centre of gravity in decision-making
- People, Ideas, Things - and why we always fixate on the wrong one
- How AI can enhance orientation when applied correctly
- The guerrilla information war we're all participating in

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom
- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102
- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Mark (Moose) McGrath is Strategic Orientation Advisory at AGLX, former Marine Corps officer, and co-host of the 'No Way Out' podcast. He has spent years in Boyd's archives preserving the authenticity of his work.

- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1
- Website: aglx.com
- Substack: thewhirl.substack.com
- Email: [email protected]

Steve Hearsum joins Mick to explore why organisations and leaders repeatedly reach for silver bullet solutions, despite knowing they don't work. Steve unpacks the powerful forces of shame, anxiety, and what he calls 'functional collusion' that drive our collective search for certainty in an uncertain world. This conversation reveals the uncomfortable truths about why change fails and what practices we actually need to develop instead.

## Key Topics

• Why we collude in seeking silver bullet solutions despite knowing they don't work

• The role of shame and anxiety in organisational decision-making

• Functional collusion and unconscious patterns that maintain dysfunctional systems

• The difference between learning for certificates versus learning for practice

• Power dynamics and complicity in organisational hierarchies

• Why embracing ambivalence and absurdity might be the signal we're missing

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom

- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102

- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Steve Hearsum is a consultant, executive coach, supervisor and author specialising in organisational change and leadership practices. His book explores why silver bullet solutions persist.

- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stevehearsum

- Company: edgeandstretch.com

- Personal: hearsum.com

Former Navy captain and fighter pilot Brian 'Ponch' Rivera delves deep into John Boyd's OODA loop, revealing how it connects to complex adaptive systems, the free energy principle, and organisational performance. From the archives of Boyd's work to practical applications in modern teams, Ponch shares insights on flow states, AI's limitations, and why most consultancies miss the true power of distributed intelligence.

## Key Topics

- The true OODA loop vs the linear "communist" version most people know

- How fighter aviation principles translate to organisational learning

- Connections between Boyd's work and the free energy principle

- Why orientation is the key to adaptation and novelty

- The flow system approach to team performance

- AI through the lens of natural vs artificial intelligence

- Sacred geometry, UAPs, and exploring weak signals

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom

- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102

- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Brian 'Ponch' Rivera is co-creator and host of No Way Out podcast, CEO of AGLX, and co-author of the Flow System books. A retired US Navy captain with 28 years of service, he flew F-14s and worked in intelligence before becoming a leading voice on John Boyd's work and complex adaptive systems.

- Website: https://aglx.com

- Substack: https://worldofreorientation.substack.com

- X/Twitter: https://x.com/nowayoutcast

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandrivera/

Nick De Voil brings a unique perspective to business analysis, combining his background in Russian, computer science, and human-centred design. This conversation explores the hidden communication channels in organisations - what Nick calls the 'service tunnels' alongside the main channels. We discuss why consensus is often an illusion, the power of metaphor in understanding complex systems, and why the explicit signal isn't always the real message.

## Key Topics

- The evolution from systems analysis to modern business analysis

- Why organisations struggle with user-centred design despite decades of knowledge

- The Channel Tunnel metaphor: main tunnels vs service tunnels in organisational communication

- Group construct analysis and George Kelly's personal construct psychology

- The role of metaphor and storytelling in business analysis

- AI's impact on business analysis - productivity vs thinking

- Marshall McLuhan's "the medium is the message" and organisational signals

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom

- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102

- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Nick De Voil is a business analyst, trainer, and writer who specialises in user experience, service design, and human-centred approaches to organisational change. He's contributed 20 articles to BA Digest magazine and teaches courses in user experience, business analysis, and service design. Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or read his articles at blackmetric.co.uk.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickdevoil/

BA Digest (the full GCA article series): https://www.blackmetric.com/ba-digest/

User Experience Foundations (BCS): https://shop.bcs.org/store/221/detail/WorkGroupByIsbn/9781780173498

Neuroscientist Dr Delia McCabe challenges the pseudoscience plaguing organisations and reveals the real impact of nutrition, technology, and stress on our brains. From the developing brain's vulnerability to social media to why leaders overlook the most basic question about their teams' cognitive capacity, this episode is a wake-up call. Delia explains modern burnout beyond work-related stress and why humans simply aren't coping with exponential change.

## Key Topics

• The connection between nutrition deficiencies and cognitive performance in children and adults

• Why popular "neuroscience" frameworks in organisations are often pseudoscience

• Modern burnout: how constant information overload exhausts our brains beyond work stress

• The developing brain crisis: how screen time is reducing cognitive behavioural reserve

• Why the illusory truth effect makes bad ideas stick in organisations

• The role of neural friction in building critical thinking capabilities

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom

- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102

- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Dr Delia McCabe is a neuroscientist, author, and founder of Lighter Brighter You. She works with organisations and individuals to apply evidence-based neuroscience to leadership, learning, and well-being.

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-delia-mccabe/

- Substack: https://deliamccabe.substack.com/

- Website: https://lighterbrighteryou.life

Mike Jones, Strategic Advisor at LBI Consulting and host of Strategy Meets Reality, challenges the conventional approach to strategy. From his military background to studying cognitive psychology, Mike reveals why most organisational strategies fail and how leaders can adopt a continuous, adaptive approach to strategic thinking. This conversation explores the gap between strategy documents and strategic reality.

## Key Topics

• Why treating strategy as a document rather than a way of being leads to failure

• The three critical elements leaders must consider: ground/ecosystem, other actors, and internal capabilities

• How military planning principles can transform organisational decision-making

• The cognitive security threat facing modern leaders in their strategic thinking

• Moving from consensus-driven paralysis to clear decision rights and accountability

• Why organisational structure matters more than behaviour change for strategy execution

## Where to Listen

- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom

- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102

- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian

## Guest Info

Mike Jones is Strategic Advisor at LBI Consulting and host of the Strategy Meets Reality podcast. With 18 years of military service and expertise in cognitive psychology, Mike helps organisations move beyond static strategic planning to adaptive strategic thinking.

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-h-jones/

- LBI Consulting: https://www.lbiconsulting.com

- Strategy Meets Reality YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StrategyMeetsReality

- Podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0svOpfmsZTmrvIXcBpJbys

- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/strategy-meets-reality-podcast/id1811429931

- Substack: https://strategymeetsreality.substack.com

Erika Clegg, founder of Larkenby and author of 'Junk Values', challenges the corporate values industry with refreshing honesty. Drawing from her background running a brand consultancy, Erika argues that 99.5% of values work is performative nonsense that actually damages trust rather than building it.

## Key Topics
- Why values workshops and Post-it note exercises miss the point entirely
- The three ways to spot 'junk values' in any organisation
- How the top corporate values words (integrity, collaboration) appear everywhere but mean nothing
- Why values should be decision-making parameters, not wall decorations
- The difference between being 'nice' and being 'kind' in leadership
- How narrative-driven culture requires clearer personal principles
- The Ubuntu philosophy and responsibility in modern workplaces

## About Erika Clegg

Erika Clegg is the founder of Larkenby and author of 'Junk Values'. After running a brand consultancy for years, she became increasingly frustrated with how organisations approach values work. She now helps leaders and organisations develop authentic principles that actually guide decision-making, rather than decorative statements that undermine trust.

- Email: [email protected]
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/erikaclegg
- Website: larkenby.com
- Website: erikaclegg.com


## 🎧 Watch / Listen to The Waggle Room

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom
- Website: https://thewaggleroom.com
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3pGKXNEbmy9qTy43dHsBdi
- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102
- Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian