What should we say to vegans?

Benny Malone returns to the podcast to discuss with me what people should say to vegans instead of the usual excuses. Benny joined me in Season One in the episode entitled "Discussing Veganism with Others" where Benny talks about his top five fallacies vegans encounter when talking with others and I talk about my top three tips when engaging with others about veganism. 

Benny is the author of How to Argue with Vegans, an analysis of anti-vegan arguments. He’s an autodidact in science, nature and philosophy. And if there’s a book about veganism out there, he’s read it cover to cover. 

Website/Socials

Benny Malone

@BennyMalone on Facebook @benny_malone_ on on Instagram and @BennyMaloneUK on X 

Emi Leese

https://emilialeese.substack.com 

http://thinklikeavegan.com   

http://emilialeese.com  

@emi.leese or @thinklikeavegan, Instagram, Facebook, X, Threads

Credits

Host: Emilia A. Leese 

Guest: Benny Malone

Production & Engineering: Jim Moore of Bloody Vegans Productions; https://www.bloodyvegansproductions.com 

Graphics: Catherine Dorrell https://www.messyvegancook.com 

Music

Opening theme: “Flashbacks” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business 

Interlude:  "Gendrone" by Matthew Gerstenberger; Seismicity on Soundcloud https://on.soundcloud.com/3Pf8g 

Closing theme: “Tear Things Up” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business

This podcast is part of iROAR, the Animals Podcasting Network https://iroarpod.com   

Pre-order the paperback edition of our book, Think Like a Vegan! This highly anticipated release will be available January 2025 in the UK and worldwide and April 2025 in North America. It will contain a new afterword so you can dive into updates and new material you won't find in the hardcover. We've added insightful reflections and fresh content to keep you inspired and informed. Pre-order on ⁠Amazon⁠, ⁠Target⁠ or wherever you buy books and ask your library to carry it

Alice Crary and Lori Gruen talk about what is effective altruism, why it's harmful and what are alternatives which already exist. Should we measure the effectiveness of an act meant to benefit another? How do we decide its effectiveness and for whom it’s effective - for the beneficiary? For the actor? And why should we be thinking about effectiveness when we’re talking about doing something that’s meant to do good or change minds?

Website/Socials

https://emilialeese.substack.com

Host: Emilia A. Leese

Guests: Dr Alice Crary and Dr Lori Gruen

Production & Engineering: Jim Moore of Bloody Vegans Productions; https://www.bloodyvegansproductions.com

Graphics: Catherine Dorrell https://www.messyvegancook.com

Opening theme: “Flashbacks” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business

Interlude: "Fuurin Sanpo" by Matthew Gerstenberger; Seismicity on Soundcloud https://on.soundcloud.com/3Pf8g

Closing theme: “Tear Things Up” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business

This podcast is part of iROAR, the Animals Podcasting Network https://iroarpod.com

Pre-order the paperback edition of our book, Think Like a Vegan! This highly anticipated release will be available from January 2025 in the UK/worldwide and April 2025 in North America. It will contain a new afterword so you can dive into updates and new material you won't find in the hardcover. We've added insightful reflections and fresh content to keep you inspired and informed. Pre-order on ⁠Amazon⁠, ⁠Target⁠ or wherever you buy books and ask your library to carry it

Whenever people talk about the environment or the plight of animals, they all seem to say something like “oh I agree industrial animal farming is terrible!” And it is. But that's not the full story.

https://emilialeese.substack.com

Host: Emilia A. Leese

Music

Opening theme: “Flashbacks” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business

Pre-order the paperback edition of our book, Think Like a Vegan! This highly anticipated release will be available from January 2025 in the UK/worldwide and April 2025 in North America. It will contain a new afterword so you can dive into updates and new material you won't find in the hardcover. We've added insightful reflections and fresh content to keep you inspired and informed. Pre-order on ⁠Amazon⁠, ⁠Target⁠ or wherever you buy books and ask your library to carry it

Dr Stacy Banwell discusses her book, The War Against Nonhuman Animals: A Non-Speciesist Understanding of Gendered Reproductive Violence. I began exploring the entanglement of war and animals in season two of my podcast when Josh Milburn and Sara van Goozen were my guests. Stacy takes the analysis of war and animals along the logical continuum, putting our actions within the context of International Humanitarian Law, the Geneva Convention and the additional protocols. She does so in an astonishing way - she’s at once clinical in her analysis, devastating in her straightforward telling of facts and incredibly sensitive to the real and lived experiences of people and animals.

Stacy is an associate professor of Criminology at the University of Greenwich in the UK. She has made two remarkable animations on why the war against animals is a crisis for humans too and one on gendered wars and gender-based violence. She has a long list of publications in addition to the book discussed in this episode, and many focussed on gender violence whether during war or armed conflict or otherwise, including The Emerald International Handbook of Feminist Perspectives on Women’s Acts of Violence, Sex and Crime, and the monograph Gender and the Violence(s) of War and Armed Conflict: More dangerous to be a woman?

TW: discussion of gendered and reproductive violence

Website/Socials

Stacy Banwell

https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/who-we-are/stacy-banwell

https://www.gre.ac.uk/people/rep/las/stacy-banwell

Animations:

Why is the war against nonhuman animals a crisis for humans too?

https://emilialeese.substack.com

Credits

Host: Emilia A. Leese

Guest: Stacy Banwell

Production & Engineering: Jim Moore of Bloody Vegans Productions; https://www.bloodyvegansproductions.com

Graphics: Catherine Dorrell https://www.messyvegancook.com

Interlude: "Jin Regret" by Matthew Gerstenberger; Seismicity on Soundcloud https://on.soundcloud.com/3Pf8g

Closing theme: “Tear Things Up” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business

Pre-order the paperback edition of our book, Think Like a Vegan! This highly anticipated release will be available from January 2025 in the UK/worldwide and April 2025 in North America. It will contain a new afterword so you can dive into updates and new material you won't find in the hardcover. We've added insightful reflections and fresh content to keep you inspired and informed. Pre-order on Amazon, Target or wherever you buy books and ask your library to carry it

Max Haiven discusses whether palm oil is a particularly more destructive product than any other. Max's book, Palm Oil: Grease of Empire, gets into a bit of the history, political, economic and natural impact of the palm oil industry, which had its start during European colonisation of West Africa in the 19th century. Max then zooms out to look at the wider impact and how we might want to consider what we do about palm oil production. 

Max is an author, a professor at Lakehead University in Canada and the Canada Research Chair in Radical Imagination. He also co-hosts a call-in podcast called What Do We Want, and directs the ReImagining Value Action Lab, a workshop for the radical imagination, social justice and decolonization. He's also the first and, so far, only non-vegan guest on this podcast 

Website/Socials 

Max Haiven⁠

https://maxhaiven.com/⁠ https://reimaginevalue.ca/ @maxhaiven on X https://maxhaiven.substack.com/ ⁠https://www.plutobooks.com/9780745345826/palm-oil/⁠ 

Emi Leese

⁠https://emilialeese.substack.com⁠ ⁠http://thinklikeavegan.com⁠

⁠http://emilialeese.com ⁠ 

@emi.leese or @thinklikeavegan, Instagram, Facebook, X, Threads

Credits

Host: Emilia A. Leese Guest: Max Haiven 

Production & Engineering: Jim Moore of Bloody Vegans Productions; ⁠https://www.bloodyvegansproductions.com⁠ 

Graphics: Catherine Dorrell ⁠https://www.messyvegancook.com⁠ Music

Opening theme: “Flashbacks” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business Interlude: "Hit" by Flowers Must Die Closing theme: “Tear Things Up” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business

This podcast is part of iROAR, the Animals Podcasting Network ⁠https://iroarpod.com⁠

In this series, the big theme has been systems with special attention to economics and capitalism. Selling as many different products is one of the principal manifestations of capitalism. And in the context of vegan products - What’s it mean to have more vegan products available to buy? Do more vegan products mean fewer animals are being exploited for their bodies and secretions? Is veganism about products? Is veganism winning? I share my thoughts about this and more in the last episode for this season.

https://www.bloodyvegansproductions.com

https://www.messyvegancook.com

Seismicity on Soundcloud https://on.soundcloud.com/3Pf8g

Sara van Goozen and Josh Milburn are the first to include considering harm to animals in just war theory. Broadly speaking, just war theory looks at whether a war is justified and if so, how that war should be conducted. They authored "Counting Animals in War: First Steps towards an Inclusive Just-War Theory” published in the journal Social Theory and Practice.Sara is a lecturer at the University of York. Her research focuses on topics in contemporary just war theory and global ethics. She’s written about just risk distribution in war, the moral status of animals in war and the distribution of scarce medical resources. Sara is also interested in various other areas in contemporary political theory, such as the literature on political obligation and sovereignty.

https://www.bloodyvegansproductions.com

https://www.messyvegancook.com

Seismicity on Soundcloud https://on.soundcloud.com/3Pf8g

Closing theme: “Tear Things Up” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business

For his Master Thesis, Tim Reysoo developed the concept of human privilege by extending the notion of social privilege to make sense of the enormous power differential between humans and animals in society. He develops the concept and social category of “species privilege” and “human innocence”.

https://www.messyvegancook.com

Seismicity on Soundcloud https://on.soundcloud.com/3Pf8g

Doctor Josh Milburn's book, Just Fodder: The ethics of feeding animals (McGill-Queen's University Press), explores a variety of questions from “Who are we obliged to feed? Who are we permitted to feed? What are we allowed to feed animals? To What is the role of the state in feeding animals? And How might obligations concerning the feeding of animals differ from obligations concerning the feeding of humans and why?

https://www.bloodyvegansproductions.com

https://www.messyvegancook.com

MusicOpening theme: “Flashbacks” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business

Seismicity on Soundcloud https://on.soundcloud.com/3Pf8g

Joshua Katcher and Tracey Katof are researching the fashion industry as a compelling case-study for the macroeconomic phenomenon of circumfauna, a term Joshua coined. They analyse the social, historical, and environmental influences on the large-scale shift towards intentionally reframing supply chains without animals.

https://thediscerningbrute.com

Brave Gentleman https://www.bravegentleman.com;

@brave_gentleman, Instagram

https://www.bloodyvegansproductions.com

Graphics: Catherine Dorrell

https://www.messyvegancook.com

Music

Interlude: "Yushima" by Matthew Gerstenberger;

Seismicity on Soundcloud https://on.soundcloud.com/3Pf8g

Closing theme: “Tear Things Up” by Jenny Moore’s Mystic Business