In the "This Old Democracy" episode featuring political scientist Daniel Schlozman, host Micah Sifry dives into the structural weaknesses plaguing American politics, a central theme in The Hollow Parties, which Schlozman co-authored with Sam Rosenfeld. The core argument they make is that modern political parties are "hollow shells"—top-heavy, poorly rooted, and disconnected from the everyday lives of citizens, leading to a profound crisis of democracy.

The conversation starts out with Schlozman and Sifry exploring the concept of movement anchors for political parties, and how that historically has worked for both major parties, albeit with different movement partners. For a long time, the Republican Party maintained a powerful alliance with the Christian Right and the Democratic Party had a robust anchor in organized labor. But Schlozman asserts that both movement anchors are much weaker now.

Amid this vacuum, Schlozman says that, "what Trump has done more effectively than Democrats is to take advantage of exactly the disorganization of civil society and figure out how to appeal to people who are not embedded in the same kinds of thick organizations, whereas Democrats have not done that."

Sifry underlines Schlozman's conclusion saying, Trump " has intuited how to be what I think Henry Timms referred to in his book on new power versus old power as the platform strongman."

The conversation ultimately steers toward solutions, directly addressing the push for systemic change. While Schlozman expresses skepticism that a multi-party system (like the kind advocated by Lee Drutman) is a silver bullet—citing the transnational nature of anti-establishment populism and hollow parties all over the world—he is more optimistic about institutional reform at the state and local levels. He sees these "laboratories of democracy" as fertile ground for experimenting with alternatives, which could include reforms like proportional representation or fusion voting, that might foster more responsive and civically-rooted parties.

The episode leaves listeners with a double-sided coin: Schlozman, who is first and foremost a political historian, argues that understanding history confirms that political actors can enact grand change for the better, but also that things can change for the worse. Ultimately, finding hope, he says, requires looking beyond the national "deep structural gloom" and embracing the hard, useful work of reforming our system from the ground up.

Give it a listen to hear some smart thinking and some healthy skepticism from one of America's most important scholars of contemporary and comparative politics.

The latest episode of "This Old Democracy" with host Micah Sifry and political scientist Didi Kuo, author of "The Great Retreat: How Political Parties Should Behave and Why They Don't," dives deep into a critical question: what's really going on with American democracy? Kuo doesn't pull punches, arguing that despite their outward appearance of strength, our major political parties have neglected essential functions.

One of Kuo's central premises is that vital political parties are essential to a functioning democracy, even though Americans are wary of parties. She makes two arguments why. First, "[p]arties are the only institution that really exists to translate all of the kind of disparate public power housed in the people and bring that into governing agendas and into institutions of leadership and power." And second, "if you just eliminated parties, you get rid of one of the main heuristics that voters use to navigate elections, and you put the burden entirely on them to get to know specific candidates in every specific election."

The problem now, Kuo explains, is that parties have largely abandoned their traditional roles. Once, they were vital hubs for policy coordination, community building, and nurturing future leaders. Now, their focus has narrowed dramatically to campaigning and winning elections. This shift has created a top-down system where parties dictate messages rather than truly listen to the electorate.

The consequence? A growing cynicism among the public, reflected in the increasing number of voters who identify as independent. They are not just political wonks rejecting labels; they are people who feel the parties no longer serve their interests.

The conversation doesn't just diagnose the problem; it explores potential pathways forward. Kuo suggests several key reforms.

• First, she advocates for campaign finance reform that would centralize authority within the parties, thereby reducing the outsized influence of big donors and increasing party engagement with grassroots members.

• Second, there's a strong call to revitalize state and local party organizations. Imagine if the energy seen during election season could be harnessed year-round, bringing communities together to solve local problems and connect them back to the broader party structure.

• Third, Kuo highlights the importance of robust civic education, not just the basics of the Constitution, but a deeper understanding of what government actually does and how it positively impacts people's lives.

While acknowledging that immediate, sweeping changes are a tall order, Kuo offers a hopeful perspective. She points to examples from other democracies, like Brazil, Poland, and France, where citizens from across the political spectrum have united to defend democratic institutions against illiberal threats. Kuo notes that it took voters making "strategic decisions" to build the coalitions necessary to combat the idea of a "common threat."

Kuo and Sifry didn't discuss it in this episode, but one can be confident that each would say "amen" to structural, party-centric reforms. In America, that means fusion voting and/or proportional representation. Each allows and encourages the formation of a multi-party democracy in which political parties are incentivized to form coalitions, engage in principled bargaining, and compromise. Pluralism requires more than just two parties. Full stop.

For Kuo, the immediate task is to build on existing popular energy for civic defense. Looking further ahead, the challenge lies in constructing a stronger, more resilient foundation for democracy, one that embraces bureaucratic effectiveness and policies that genuinely serve a 21st-century society. The core message is clear: securing democracy is the prerequisite for debating any other issue.

LINKS

Read Didi Kuo's new book, THE GREAT RETREAT: HOW POLITICAL PARTIES SHOULD BEHAVE AND WHY THEY DON'T

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-great-retreat-9780197664193?cc=us&lang=en&

If you haven't read the report of the ABA Task Force on American Democracy, you should. It's nearly 100 pages, with 34 recommendations. If that's too much, read the press release. (See links below.)

And if you prefer to consume information about election reform via podcasts, this latest episode of "This Old Democracy" is for you.

Micah Sifry interviews one of the members of the ABA Task Force, Tom Rogers. Rogers is deeply invested in democratic reforms in part because of his professional expertise in the media business. As a top Hill staffer, Rogers helped write critical communications industry legislation that sought to expand diversity of viewpoints in our media landscape.

Rogers explained that the creation of the ABA Task Force was "a very brave and courageous move," given the prominence of the legal community in public affairs. The ABA appointed two highly regarded co-chairs: Jeh Johnson, a former Homeland Security Secretary under President Obama, and Judge J. Michael Luttig, a former Court of Appeals judge, with strong conservative credentials.

After two years of hearings, discussions, working papers, revisions and votes, a final report was recently released. The legal community –lawyers, scholars, jurists, law students – should take heed. The report is a roadmap of urgent and practical reforms designed to strengthen democratic practice and institutions. Its end goal is restoring the American people's trust and pride in both elections and politics itself.

Rogers zeroed in on two recommendations that he believes are critical to strengthening (or saving) the American experiment.

One of these should be very familiar to This Old Democracy listeners: fusion voting. Rogers believes that political polarization has poisoned the highest levels of our democracy. He sees fusion voting as a mechanism to "help consensus building, centrist driven candidates, which ⁓ we need more of, not less of."

The ABA Task Force's recommendation is particularly important for two reasons.

The first is that the ABA is the nation's most well-known legal organization. Their support for a relatively obscure reform is unexpected and all the more valuable for being so. It is surely the first time the ABA has ever publicly asserted the need to move away from the two-party system. This is no small thing, and in a sense is a reflection of the depth of the crisis we are in. One can hope that the ABA's call resonates in the relevant chambers.

The second is that it's more than a call to do something in the sweet by-and-by. Fusion is the only one of the thirty-four Task Force recommendations that can be enacted reasonably quickly, and some members were very much aware of this. At this writing, courts in three states (New Jersey, Kansas, and Wisconsin) are considering whether the ban on fusion voting and parties is constitutional.

The ABA Task Force's report is a rare moment of courageous consensus on the most important issue of our day: the battle for democracy itself. Read it if you can, and listen to Rogers explain some of its most salient features.

LINKS

Final report of the ABA Task Force on American Democracy

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/office_president/democracy-task-force/2025-report-american-democracy.pdf

ABA press release

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2025/09/aba-releases-final-report-democracy-task-force/

Three good reasons to check out the latest episode of "This Old Democracy" with guest Brad Lander.

• Get an insider's take on this moment in NYC politics

• Hear from a major party candidate and elected official about how fusion voting and other election reforms have affected their career

• Feel some hopeful chills coming from a group of young, hearing-impaired campaign volunteers and an appreciation of competing versions of Jollof rice among African emigres in the Bronx (yes, really).

NYC Comptroller Brad Lander is the unusual guest, and Micah Sifry is our usual host.

Lander is a particularly interesting voice on democracy reform because he is one of the few candidates who (1) has run for office in a fusion system, (2) has run for office in an RCV system – in two Democratic primaries, (3) has participated in public campaign financing and (4) is a genuinely deep thinker about the meaning of democracy and how to strengthen it. And the conversation with him did not disappoint.

Lander is clear on the multiple benefits of fusion voting, which he calls "something more parliamentary … but in the context of American politics." He sees fusion as a mechanism to encourage building coalitions, which are essential to a healthy democracy: "[I]t does something powerful in terms of making it possible for people to identify strongly ⁓ with a group of like-minded people, but still participate in bigger politics."

Two unexpected highlights gave us – hardened political cynics – the feels. Lander tells the story of a young Sudanese immigrant living in the Bronx. The immigrant explains the importance of jollof rice in his culture: "Every country is supposed to say that their Jollof rice is the best. But he said, you know, since I've been here in New York, I'm living in the Bronx. I had some Jollof rice from people from Senegal, and I think theirs might be better than ours." Brad recognizes the beauty of the city's melting pot in this comment: "Nasser, ⁓ you're becoming a New Yorker!"

Lander shares a second anecdote, about his favorite video from the video-centric Zohran Mamdani mayoral campaign. "[I]f you watch one Zohran video, watch the one called 'Deafies for Zohran, where a group of young deaf volunteers developed an approach to going out and campaigning in the deaf community in New York. It'll make you hopeful about the future of this city and about this old democracy."

Here's the "Deafies for Zohran" video: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPOd914jqWj/

If you are moved by an inclusive vision for politics that honors the value of civil and civic engagement, spend 35 minutes listening to Brad and Micah. You'll be richer for it.

Jennifer Dresden and Deborah Apau from Protect Democracy have an important new report just out on how fusion voting and proportional representation complement each other in the work of strengthening American democracy.

So it's exciting that Dresden joined Micah Sifry on the latest episode of "This Old Democracy" to whet your appetite for reading the full paper – Fusion as a Pathway to Proportional Representation: Lessons from Global Experience and American Electoral Heritage (link below).

Dresden explains one of the paper's core arguments, that fusion voting could help foster the kinds of parties that can open up the party system and channel demands for further reform. "What fusion would do is create the space and the ability for more minor parties to grow, to flourish, to build skills and organization and relationships with communities in ways that they could then be the vehicle that would push for reform," like proportional representation.

The scholarly breadth of the Dresden/Apau paper encompasses case studies of how other countries transitioned from dysfunctional governance to healthier, proportionate multi-party democracies. On the podcast, Dresden highlights the lessons we can learn from New Zealand's transition from a failing winner-take-all system to a fairer, more responsive proportionate election system. The story of a major party winning a majority of the popular vote, but a minority of legislative seats should sound familiar to American audiences.

As discouraging as the daily news can be, Dresden finds optimism from the American journey. Sifry suggested that the enactment of reforms in just a couple of places (for example, in the states where efforts to revive fusion voting are currently being litigated) could catalyze interest in more reform. Dresden agrees: "[T]here is a lot more diversity in the way that Americans have done democracy, right, and are doing democracy now in terms of how we run our elections, than I think we all appreciate. We have a much more diverse heritage than we realize, and I think that we should sort of open up the scope of our understanding about what is possible… We can learn a lot of lessons from overseas, but we don't actually have to look that far to sort of feed that imagination."

Read the Dresden/Apau report – "Fusion as a Pathway to Proportional Representation: Lessons from Global Experience and American Electoral Heritage" – here:

https://protectdemocracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Fusion-PR-pathway.pdf

In this episode of This Old Democracy, host Micah Sifry talks with the co-chairs of United Wisconsin, a fledgling political party that is seeking to bridge the political divides in the Badger State. The bipartisan pair – Dale Schultz, a former Republican Majority Leader in the State Senate, and David Mahoney, the former Democratic sheriff of Dane County explain what motivated them to form United Wisconsin, the reaction to their initiative and why fusion voting can bring people together for common purpose. The conversation highlights the historical context of fusion voting, the legal challenges they face, and the grassroots efforts to build a new political party that empowers citizens' voices. The episode concludes with reflections on hope and engagement in the democratic process.

TAKEAWAYS:

• United Wisconsin aims to revitalize democracy and provide more competition.

• Many citizens feel their voices are not being heard in the current political system.

• Bipartisan collaboration can lead to more effective solutions for common issues.

• Fusion voting allows candidates to appear on multiple party lines, increasing voter choice.

• The organization is focused on grassroots education and engagement.

• Legal challenges are being pursued to restore fusion voting in Wisconsin.

• Political parties currently hold a monopoly on power, stifling diverse voices.

• Engagement with the community is crucial for building a new political party.

• Hope lies in empowering citizens to participate in the democratic process.

• Listening to diverse perspectives can lead to mutual understanding and collaboration.

Learn more about United Wisconsin at www.unitedwisconsin.org

In this episode of 'This Old Democracy,' host Micah Sifry speaks with Ian Bassin, co-founder and executive director of Protect Democracy. They discuss the organization's mission to safeguard democracy in the U.S. against rising authoritarianism, the importance of civic engagement, and the need for political reform. Bassin emphasizes the multi-faceted approach required to combat authoritarianism, including legal strategies, grassroots activism, and legislative reforms. The conversation also touches on the current political landscape, signs of hope amidst challenges, and the moral obligation to uphold democratic values.

Special bonus moment: Bassin compares "Lord of the Rings" movement people to "Star Wars" movement people.

TAKEAWAYS:

• Protect Democracy was founded to prevent authoritarianism in the U.S.

• The organization focuses on protecting electoral integrity and the public square.

• Engaging the public is crucial for a healthy democracy.

• Legal strategies are essential in combating misinformation and protecting election officials.

• Bipartisan efforts are necessary for effective democracy reforms.

• The rise of authoritarianism is a global issue, not just an American one.

• Civic engagement can empower individuals to support democracy.

• The current political climate shows signs of both danger and hope.

• Reforming the electoral system is vital for better representation.

• Finding dignity in doing the right thing is essential for activists.

Read Ian Bassin's recent Substack post, "The hard-won hope of the long defeat," on Protect Democracy's Substack: https://www.ifyoucankeepit.org/

And learn more about Protect Democracy's work at https://protectdemocracy.org

In this episode of This Old Democracy, host Micah Sifry engages with author, documentary filmmaker and activist Astra Taylor to discuss the complexities of democracy in America. They explore the paradox of democracy, the historical context of its evolution, and the challenges posed by authoritarianism and the two-party system. Taylor emphasizes the importance of organizing and building institutional power to combat rising fascism and advocates for a more inclusive and transformative vision of democracy. The conversation also touches on the role of money in politics, the significance of youth perspectives, and the current political landscape, including redistricting strategies.

TAKEAWAYS:

• Democracy is a process, not a destination.

• We must recognize the fragility of democratic progress.

• Youth perspectives on democracy are shaped by disillusionment.

• Organizing is essential to build institutional power.

• The Democratic Party can be a vehicle for transformation.

• Money in politics is a critical issue that unites many Americans.

• Redistricting strategies are becoming increasingly aggressive.

• A vision for democracy must be forward-looking and inclusive.

• Solidarity is essential for effective organizing.

• Good ideas must be revisited and re-energized over time.

Read Astra Taylor's work, including:

Democracy May Not Exist, But We'll Miss It When It's Gone, MacMillan, 2020: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250231284/democracymaynotexistbutwellmissitwhenitsgone/

The Rise of End Times Fascism, The Guardian, April 13, 2025:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2025/apr/13/end-times-fascism-far-right-trump-musk

Share your feedback on This Old Democracy by leaving a comment or emailing us at info at centerforballotfreedom dot org

In this episode of This Old Democracy, host Micah Sifry engages with Bill Kristol, an editor-at-large at The Bulwark, to discuss the current state of American democracy, the rise of authoritarianism, and the challenges posed by political polarization.

Kristol shares his insights on strategies to combat these threats, including the importance of civic engagement and potential electoral reforms like fusion voting. The conversation emphasizes the need for a collective effort to strengthen democratic institutions and the hope that arises from active participation in the political process.

Read Kristol's recent work on his Substack here: https://substack.com/@williamkristol

In this episode of This Old Democracy, Washington Post columnist Perry Bacon joins the podcast to discuss the state of American democracy, the increasing authoritarianism of the Trump presidency, and the weakening of independent institutions like the Supreme Court, Congress, the business community, and the media.

He and host Micah Sifry explore whether the two-party system contributes to political polarization and stifles new ideas, considering the potential for a multi-party democracy, fusion voting, and proportional representation. Perry also shares his perspective on what gives him hope amidst these challenging times.