This Week in Solar

What’s new

The latest St. Jude Dream Home in Coachella Valley is now equipped with a fully donated, state-of-the-art solar energy system.

Why it matters

The St. Jude Dream Home Giveaway is one of the hospital’s largest national fundraisers. Companies donate time and materials to build houses that St. Jude raffles off.

By using donated equipment and labor, St. Jude can use a “net-zero cost” construction model, so that almost all of the proceeds from every ticket sold go directly to ending childhood cancer.

These aren’t shacks, either. These homes are incredible, state-of-the-art builds that tend to be valued between $400,000 to $900,000, depending on the location.

The raffle tickets are $100 each, and participants can order up to 50 per transaction. The program has raised more than $700 million since it started in 1991, and raises somewhere between $1-3 million per city.

And the latest house they raffled off is powered by donated solar energy!

Go Deeper

California’s Title 24 building standards require solar on most new residential construction. In most cases, that’s a great thing, but it makes it challenging when you’re building a house out of entirely donated components with donated labor.

But since the solar industry is awesome, several solar companies stepped up to the plate to donate time and materials. They installed a 5.72 kW system that will handle this home’s energy needs and power their brand-new appliances.

Tigo Energy and Greentech Renewables donated the “brains” of the system (the MPLEs and inverter). GOAT Solar donated the design and labor for the installation. They also left the home battery-ready in case the homeowners ever decide to add energy storage.

Congratulations to Kathleen Chastain, the winner of this amazing home! Not only did you get a free house from funding research and care for kids with cancer, you also avoided California energy bills for decades.

Pretty sweet victory for a $100 ticket.

Sources:

St. Jude Dream Home Giveaway

Solar Companies Donate System to St. Jude Dream Home Giveaway

St. Jude’s Dream Home in California Receives Solar System Donation from Tigo Energy and Partners

And the winner is…

St. Jude Dream Home Giveaway Shatters Records In 2026

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

In this episode, Aaron talks with Sonny Sacks, a Database Reactivation Specialist who works with home service companies.

Sonny explains how solar companies can stop burning cash on new leads by unlocking the hidden value sitting in their (often neglected) CRMs.

You can connect with Sonny on LinkedIn here.

Listen to this episode here, or on:

* YouTube

* Apple Podcasts

* Spotify

Expect to learn:

* What “database reactivation” actually means and looks like day-to-day.

* The critical lessons solar installers should steal from the HVAC industry.

* How to build recurring revenue through Operations & Maintenance (O&M) memberships and move beyond the “just call me if it breaks” mindset.

Quotes from the episode:

“Reactivating that database is... reaching back out to those people so that number one, you can stay top of mind... and you can decrease your cost of acquisition because there’s no cold source ads going on.”

- Sonny Sacks

Transcript:

Aaron Nichols: Sonny, on LinkedIn, you list your job title as database, database reactivation specialist. What does that mean and what does that look like day-to-day?

Sonny Sacks: Great question. So, database, let’s just start there. Most companies, established companies, they have a CRM, right, customer relations manager, which is, you know, how they track their incoming leads, their prospects, how they follow up, you know, jobs that are in the pipeline and where they’re at in the pipeline, and so on and so forth. So, reactivation is kind of like how it sounds, right? Reactivating that database. A lot of, and I consider myself a specialist because this is what I do, but a lot of companies have thousands and thousands and thousands of leads that have gone cold, people that have expressed interest and they never heard from again, you know, appointments that were made or estimates that were given that were never followed up with or sold and a lot of, you know, past customers who, you know, company didn’t hear from and hasn’t heard from in a year to three.

So with The database reactivation is reaching back out to those people and kind of nurturing that list of people so that number one, you can stay top of mind number two. You can generate business number three. You can expand the lifetime customer value in number three. You can decrease your cost of acquisition because there’s no cold source ads going on. We’re just reactivating what you already have. And I mean, it’s an incredibly cost effective way to increase revenue quickly without having to replace anything. Right. That’s my answer.

Aaron Nichols: Okay. And so when we talked before the show, you said, I’ve been working in the HVAC industry and I’ve seen how solar shops could seriously take a note or two from HVAC. Now, before we jump into that. I want to talk about your recent shift that you told me about before we started recording, where you said that you had almost like an awakening, where you realized that you wanted to work in clean energy.

Sonny Sacks: Yeah. Okay. I’m going to try to not get too hyped. Okay. I’m excited. So, the question, let me just make sure, the question is you want to hear more about my recent awakening.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah. Absolutely.

Sonny Sacks: So yeah, like you said, you know, I’ve the most of my business has been with the HVAC industry plumbing, other contractors, things like that. But mostly HVAC and plumbing. And I was reflecting on it was December last month. And I know this isn’t going to publish until like April or whatever. But it was in December 2025. And you know, reflecting on my year and I’m thinking about, you know, where I want my life to go and I had this moment of like I could die two day and my life will be over. The end of the chapter will be gone and the book will be a wrap. And you know, I thought about what I’ve been doing as far as my personal life, which has been completely separate from how I make money and I really try to serve God and man in my personal life. But when it comes to my business, I, you know, I help HVAC companies and that helps people be comfortable and that’s great and I help plumbing companies and that helps people with, you know, that, that kind of stuff.

And that’s great. But it’s, it isn’t. It just, it just, there was, there was a feeling that I had that felt like I could do more that like I didn’t want to be on my deathbed thinking about if there was a more impactful way I could have conducted my business and applied my skills. And I started really going on, you know, a rabbit hole about that and really starting to think like, what are the issues facing humanity right now? What’s happening in, you know, 2025, 2026 for people and not just where I live in my community, but all over the world. And I started thinking about, of course, you know, AI, AI, this AI that and data centers this and data centers that. And I, I, I started going really deep into thinking about the, um, clean energy because going from AI and data centers, what powers those things? What’s the fundamental layer that powers these world changing shifts that are literally happening before my eyes that like by the time, like I’m my grandchildren are going to ask me what it was like to live in 2025 and beyond, you know?

And that’s when I got down to the fundamental layer of electricity of the kilowatt. And I started to really think about, well, how’s that look in these days? And I started going on a really, really deep, you know, rabbit hole on how it’s not sustainable the way we do it. the way we dig things up and set them on fire and how it’s destroying our planet means that by the time my grandchildren or adults, they’re going to inherit a planet that I mean since I was in middle school, I’m 33 years old and since I was in middle school maybe even before that, I remember climate change being a topic. I remember like when Al Gore made that one documentary and I remember thinking about these things and you know them talking about it in school but it was It was always just like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, I want to make money. That doesn’t matter. I don’t want to make money. Right. And it’s over time. It’s become, it’s always been a topic in my life. Like whenever I look at the news or politics or whatever, it’s always been a topic. And like finally, I was, I was, I think I heard Elon Musk say it on X. He said something like there is no, like, more impactful thing happening for our humanity on the planet, other than space colonization and AI, the thing that’s going to power these two, these two amazing things is clean energy.

We have to figure out a way to harness the power of the sun, specifically, and use it in a sustainable way that can basically allow humanity to power forward in a sustainable way without, you know, having a net loss going down, you know. Yeah. So, um, that’s, so I once I realized this and like it dawned on me, it was just like, I, I thought like, okay, how do I help? How do I contribute? How do I help? And I was going to go volunteer to like, uh, for, well, I was going to like start working for grid and like do those like you know volunteer work around the world setting up solar panels and stuff. And I was like well maybe I should just go get a job at a solar company. And I’m like I’ll just sell solar and start door knocking. And now I like started like really thinking like how do I build something? Can I build something and let’s just like wait a minute. This is my skill set. I know how to do this, you know. I’m already doing things. Exactly. And it’s just like I can help do I can transfer this over here. And that’s that’s I think that answers your question. That’s my, that’s a long rant.

Aaron Nichols: Sorry, it’s amazing. And it’s much needed within the solar industry. And just a quick sidebar before we keep going, there’s a company called Twin Day Solar. You should look up. T-W-E-N-D-E. It’s a non-profit run by a woman named Robin Swan Heiser. I’m going to say her name wrong and she’s going to make fun of me. But they handle Solar around the world, they really just do one project at a time. They’re a very small nonprofit, but they build solar projects in places where electrification is the primary need. The next one they’re going to build is an Ecuador in like an off-grid school or something. So incredible use of remote, volunteering time, if you ever want someone like that.

Sonny Sacks: Twin day. Yes. Twin day solar.

Aaron Nichols: Now going back to HVAC, and HVAC being a more established industry, you said that solar could take a note or two from HVAC. So is HVAC much better generally at using their old databases?

Sonny Sacks: Okay, that’s a great question. So the thing about the HVAC industry or the plumbing industry or any of these home service industries is the variance, right? And when I say variance, I’m talking about the variance in the sophistication of business practices for example.

Aaron Nichols: Totally. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s Jim with a truck or it’s the company that covers 30 states.

Sonny Sacks: Exactly. It’s Jim with a truck, no CRM, and when I, you know, reactivate his database and send him a lead, he answers the phone, like, yeah, it’s Jim. It’s like, oh my gosh. But yeah, so, but generally speaking, like if we can, you know, when Jimmy decides that he wants to, you know, kind of step his game up a little bit, right? The first thing he’s got to do is get a CRM. Like I’m, I’m as a database reactivation specialist. I’m shocked at how many companies don’t have a CRM. like baffled, like you’re not even, there’s nothing for me to reactivate.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, without a database.

Sonny Sacks: Yeah, I mean, their CRM is like a couple of cell sheets. It’s just like, oh my god, you know? So the first thing is they gotta have a CRM and the people, the companies that have the CRM and that are past that threshold of like, yep, we’ve been working on word of mouth and referrals and we’re doing fine. It’s like, okay. So those people go forth and multiply, love it. You know what I mean? But for the people who, the companies who like understand that, okay, this is a very seasonal type thing. This is a kind of feast or famine type thing. Like I need to, I have employees now. I need a level of consistency in my business and growth and sustainable growth, and those people understand the needs who market, they have a website, they invest in their marketing, they have a marketing budget, and what I have seen in the HVAC industry, specifically the HVAC industry, because recently a few years back, private equity firms came in to the HVAC industry, and they really changed the game.

They they brought a level of sophistication into that industry that changed everything for everybody and What happened was is people started to see like here are these companies with these giant budgets that are just Dominating Google ads dominating Facebook ads dominating paper click and SEO, right and so you know new lead acquisition and became a lot more expensive and a lot more difficult, but still necessary. And studies have shown over time that what was it? The largest companies, 70%, I believe it was, 70% of their revenue came from recurring customers, people who are already in their database, people who, you know, bought a system, joined a membership, bought this repair, bought this seasonal thing, and they basically, it has become and is becoming standardized to, you know, nurture and farm and reactivate a database. As a result of that, different software has popped up that, you know, automates that, but the thing is, is it takes work to use those software tools, right?

And you know, some shops are doing, you know, who are over the $10, $15 million mark, they, you know, can afford to hire an in-house marketing team where they manage and use these tools that help them do their job, then you have the Jimmy’s of the world and then you have everybody in the middle where it’s like, yeah, I guess I’ll spend the money on the software tool but now I got to hire somebody to do it and I don’t have time and I got to focus on this and it’s to answer your question, that’s a long-winded random so sorry, I just, I have a tendency to, it’s almost like, especially talking on like a video like I have to formulate my thoughts in how in a context that like makes sense to me. I wish it could be more succinct.

Aaron Nichols: Well, I am able to edit so I can edit out just to make a great one. But to answer your question, yes. Generally speaking, the HVAC industry understands the need to cultivate and and continually reach out to their database and they it’s becoming more of a standardize practice, it’s becoming more of a, it’s becoming more of a, I don’t want to say need. I want to say more of a, more of a standard, I guess is the word. Yeah, more of a standard, yeah. So there were, there were three things that you mentioned when you sent me your, your summary before I interviewed you and I used them to read the questions. They were database reactivation, rehashing unfold appointments and O&M memberships for recurring revenue.

Sonny Sacks: Yes.

Aaron Nichols: So let’s let’s just start with database reactivation like if someone has no idea where to start there What would you come in and do for them?

Sonny Sacks: So number one database reactivation is about putting the correct offer in front of the correct person right preferably at the correct time For example, I’ll use HVAC as an example because that’s the first time I come to my head. Let’s say in August, winter is coming, or not me, let’s not use that, let’s use March. Summer is coming, right? You have a database of 5,000, 10,000 people, most of which haven’t heard from you in over a year or two, or maybe they’ve just filled out a lead form, gave you their phone number and you never talked to them again, whatever. But what I would do is I would segment who you want to reach out. I would actually based on where a company is at, if, hey, we need more installs this month or, hey, we want to boost our memberships this month or, hey, we overstocked on capacitors. So whatever the case may be, it’s a matter of figuring out where a company wants, and And I apply this to solar thinking like, okay, battery storage, there’s a whole lot of homes out there that got solar panels and no battery storage. Those are the people who are furthest down the field. You’re not starting at the 20 yard line on the opposite side of the field. You’re already at least on the 50 yard line. So I’m going to take those people, I’m going to target those people.

And I have different automations that when I say database rectification, I’m not talking about like one massive text blast to everybody. And whoever bites bites, that’s what I’m talking about. I have found that once I know what offer a company wants to make, given their situation. I’m able to segment the best target customers for that situation. And then I’m able to craft a certain mechanism that automates the outreach via text messaging. I have found that text messaging is by far the best way to reach out your database vastly better than email.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah. And because everybody’s going to see it. That open rate is going to be like 99%.

Sonny Sacks: Right. Now, the thing about texting is it has to be done in a very invitational way. Like, hey, Aaron, I’m having a barbecue. We’re gonna have a live bank come out. My mom’s gonna be cooking brisket. It’s awesome, and it’s gonna be taken place on Sunday after church, come by. Let me know if you’re interested. Right. It’s very invitational, no pressure, no urgency, no, hey yeah, buy this, we’re gonna do this. And if you act now, then we’re gonna add this, and then, you know what I mean, call us now, and then we’re gonna, you know what I mean, like it’s not, it’s not that. It’s the opposite of that. It’s very invetational, I almost feel like, I mean, you know, everybody knows that marketers have a bad name. There’s a prejudice against marketers, you know?

Aaron Nichols: I’ve also found that people ascribe far more competence to marketers than I think is real. I’ll look into that in one second. I’ll look into the marketing as if we’re like actually pulling strings like some sort of illuminati. and there’s really just a bunch of people trying to figure out what works just like everything else.

Sonny Sacks: Yes, I’ll get to that in a second. You know, that’s a toll. I could talk about that for a cool moment. But hang on, let me finish that.

Aaron Nichols: We only have half an hour, so let’s stay on database.

Sonny Sacks: Right, right, right. So with the database reactivation, if you keep it really invitational and you obviously schedule out the right times when it sends, You know, it’s best to send it on a Tuesday rather than on Monday and you know if you send out the right times Where it’s better to start to sending between like 10 and two versus like six a.m. or nine p.m. You know and and if and if you send the invitations out in a way that strikes at the feeling like we were talking about earlier where it’s like it’s it’s less about like save money and it’s more about like Home comfort, or peace of mind, or whatever the case may be, depending on whatever promotion we’re doing, grid independence, whatever. And then it’s all about the follow up, where it’s like, okay, if I send a text message and I don’t hear something, the next day, they’re going to get another text message. And if they don’t hear anything, we’re going to send another text message. And it’s about having that continuous chain, that continuous, you know, they say fortune is in the follow-up, it’s about having the right flow to where like, yeah, and the way you want to structure it is, you know, here’s what we’re doing, this really cool thing, reply yes if you’re interested. And then, they reply yes, or they call indirectly. And then, it’s, there you go.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, I think a good example of that a campaign we’ve run is just focusing on the storage customers, like you said, the people who already have solar who might want storage, and then asking them after power outages if they’re interested in storage. When there’s a big power outage in our service area, we message people who live there. And so many people are like, I hadn’t thought about it until now, but I would like that.

Sonny Sacks: Exactly. And not only that, the statistics have shown with database reactivation. And these are people who already know who you are. They’ve heard of your company in one way or the other. And they know that there’s something to buy. And the people who are responding are actively expressing interest. These people are three times more studies have shown. Three times more likely to buy and when they buy, spend 40% more money than when compared to a cold, you know, ad source type lead, just specifically if they’ve already heard of you.

Aaron Nichols: If they’re already in your CRM but haven’t bought yet, is that that’s what you’re talking about?

Sonny Sacks: Yeah, if they already are, if they’re already, if they’ve already seen an ad from you, fill it on Facebook or Google or whatever and or senior website or whatever and they’ve, you know, given you their phone number and their name and then you never heard from them again. that person is gonna respond a lot better than the guy who’s never heard of you before and is listening to your radio ad or your seeing your TV ad or seeing your ad on Facebook and scrolling past it, you know?

Aaron Nichols: Okay. Yeah. So the other one I’d like to talk about is O&M memberships. And I think there’s something that has been overlooked in the solar industry for a long time. The attitude has just been like, just call me and I’ll fix it. And obviously we’re starting to hit this critical mass. I mean, like my, we’re one of the few companies in our service area that will take on orphan systems. And one of my friends has just started, like, just doing service, and she’s crushing it right now. Because there’s such a need. Because that attitude of just calling me and all fix it, but not really having a plan, actually ended up driving a lot of companies out of business. And so how do you advise that people build-in service plans like from the beginning. That’s a great question. From the beginning, if we just add on, is that also something that HVACs used to doing?

Sonny Sacks: So yeah. So going back to the HVAC industry, what happened was a private equity comes in, the cost of acquisition explodes because all the bidding wars happened on the ad platforms. And what happened is it’s competitive. It’s a very competitive industry as is kind of every industry now. But people started to see how important it was to keep, you know, client acquisition is expensive. We own that. It’s hard and it’s expensive. And there’s that rule how it’s like, I don’t know, it’s like 100 times or 10 times cheaper to keep a customer than it is to get a new one or something like that. I forget. But my point is that, yeah, in the HVAC industry, I get a lot of my partners that I work with when I first start talking to them, I get excited because I have this install promotion, right? I have this install promotion that got one of my partners out here, half a million in three months, like, we got to do this install promotion.

And at the interesting thing is a lot of people want to focus on small service jobs, because it’s number one, it’s a lot easier to say, yes, to a small service job for, you know, 100, 200 bucks, then it is like a $15,000 install or, or, you know, in the solar unit, 20, 30, $40,000. And what I’ve seen happen is, is once people get on site with a customer and they can, for just a service job, they are able to do two things. Number one, enroll that person in a membership plan or a maintenance plan because it’s, you know, the benefits of being on our maintenance plan, you get this, you get two annual checks for free, you get priority service, you get discounts on parts and labor, things like that, you get the perks of being a member, and the second thing is, is you’re now top of mind, you’re now there, go to air conditioning person, you’re not just Jim in a truck, you know who maybe has a vehicle wrap you’re like when you when you get a text message from you know a company who you’re a member of it’s like oh this is my friend Aaron over there at you know exact solar let me know that they got this cool promotion going on rather than like who is this again you know I’m saying yeah it’s a lot more about go figure relationships chips.

Aaron Nichols: One of my favorite overused words that corporate people love to say at each other and then walk away.

Sonny Sacks: Yes, it’s all about just maintaining and developing that relationship.

Aaron Nichols: I came from the world of education, or we heard that word constantly. Okay. Sunny, I have learned so much, and I look forward to talking to you in the future, but we are unfortunately coming short on time.

Sonny Sacks: That’s crazy.

Aaron Nichols: Now, everyone who comes on, I finished with the last question. And it has to do with the fact that I spoke at my grandma’s 80th birthday party last year and realized as I was sitting there that 80 years means she was born into a world where renewable energy did not exist. She was born in 1945, which meant it was only, it was like 12 years before that the Rural Electrification Act had happened and actually brought electricity to almost everywhere in America. And, like, everything that we’ve seen from windmills generating electricity to solar, you know, just being invented. PV was invented in 1954, and then the price just falling and falling and falling until it’s the cheapest source of electricity now. All of that happened within her lifetime. And so, if you were just to make a wild guess, what do you think clean energy looks like like 80 years from now.

Sonny Sacks: Correct me if I’m wrong, but net zero emissions means that like we are now a clean energy planet. Is that correct?

Aaron Nichols: Right. Like we don’t need to dig anything up and burn it anymore.

Sonny Sacks: Correct. I think we’ll be there in 80 years.

Aaron Nichols: Nice. Okay. I like that.

Sonny Sacks: Yeah. Well, maybe not absolutely, but I think so. Like if we can get, I feel like other countries government are vastly more progressive than ours and allow and like understand the importance of what we’re actually doing. If we can get our government to be on that same page, I think it’ll, especially with like America’s influence on the rest of the planet, I think that will just once that happens and I do believe it will happen, it’ll exponentially take off.

Aaron Nichols: And some of it, I mean, as someone who’s traveled in so much of what you would call, like quote unquote, the developing world. It’s some of it’s not even progressiveism. It’s just not even like being at the point of grid development that the U.S. is at yet and they might as well just put in something cheaper now. So there’s a lot of optimism there as well.

Sonny Sacks: I was thinking about that too. Like we just had that major power outage in San Francisco. Yeah. It’s like, is anybody like, Like, it doesn’t, it’s not going to work if we keep going the way we’re going. Like it literally won’t work. It’s, we’re seeing that now. And with the bots that are coming out, the robots that are coming out, it’s like, what are we doing? Like, they’re, it almost seems like obvious. this.

Aaron Nichols: Well, Sunny, where can you be found online if you do want to be found? Where can people go?

Sonny Sacks: LinkedIn. You know, that people can always go to my LinkedIn. I feel like that’s where a lot of your listeners are going to be is they can find me on LinkedIn, probably commenting on your stuff and or my website movestraightforward.com.

Aaron Nichols: Awesome. Thanks so much, man. And for everyone listening, that’s been this week in solar.

Sonny Sacks: Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

What’s new

In just one year, the number of factories that assemble solar panels here on American soil grew by 35%, but it’s still not enough to meet demand.

The U.S. is building solar modules faster than ever before and cleaning the supply chain so that more pieces of our solar modules can be made at home.

But as new rules from the OBBB kick in, the industry is racing against the clock to make sure every part of a solar panel can actually be “Made in America.”

Why it matters

The Inflation Reduction Act offered a 30% tax credit to homes and businesses that went solar, and offered an additional 10% credit on top of that for businesses that used domestically manufactured solar in their projects.

In the two and a half years that the Inflation Reduction Act was law, companies started building domestic factories so we’d have enough American-made solar for businesses to use those panels.

The One Big, Beautiful Bill changed all that. It:

* Phased out the tax credits for homeowners at the end of 2025

* Put the commercial tax credit (the tax credit for businesses that go solar) on a much faster phase-out

* Required that businesses that go solar use more domestically manufactured parts if they wanted any tax credit at all.

Starting this year, projects can lose their tax breaks if they use too many parts or technology from foreign manufacturers. This is pushing more companies to manufacture solar modules here in the US.

On the one hand, that’s amazing. It means more domestic jobs and more American pride in the solar industry.

It also means there’s a mad scramble for domestically made panels, and that we don’t currently have enough manufacturing to keep up.

We are great at putting panels together in the US, but we still don’t make many of the “solar cells” (the little squares that actually turn sunlight into electricity and make up solar modules) here in the U.S.

Most of the polysilicon (the material that cells are made of) is still imported.

In late 2025, U.S. module manufacturing capacity hit 65.5 GW, which is more than enough to meet the 44 GW of domestic demand expected this year. However, domestic solar cell capacity is currently only 3.2 GW.

So in layman's terms:

We don’t make all the pieces for solar modules here in the U.S.; we import the pieces and put the modules together here in the U.S. Because many of the pieces aren’t made here, many of the panels don’t count as “American-made” because they are only assembled here.

This may sound like silly tax semantics to you (and it is), but it’s the same as ordering a puzzle from China, putting the pieces together in your living room in North Dakota, and calling it “American-made.”

Companies like T1 Energy and Qcells are racing to bring 20+ GW of cell production online by 2027, but the industry still relies on imports for the actual “heart” of each panel.

US Modules just opened a factory in Texas. Currently, the company is keeping 100% of its panels for its own projects to bypass the "procurement scramble" hitting the rest of the industry.

By acting as its own supplier, parent company Carey International Group (CIG) ensures its 3.5 GW pipeline remains on schedule and fully compliant with strict new federal Domestic Content and FEOC rules, which are increasingly difficult to meet when buying panels on the open market.

Pretty nifty solution on their part.

If you can’t get the parts you want in time, just build your own factory!

Sources:

US Modules opens solar panel assembly plant in east-central Texas

U.S. solar’s push for domestic bliss

Solar & Storage Supply Chain Dashboard

https://usmodules.com/

Are US solar tariffs helping or hindering PV manufacturing?

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

Aaron Nichols speaks with Adam Larner, Chief Operating Officer at Primergy Power, about why the clean energy industry needs to stop fighting over slices of the pie and focus on growing the pie together.

Adam brings three decades of experience in electricity. He started as an electrician installing solar panels on rooftops, and now helps lead one of the country’s top utility-scale solar and storage developers.

You can connect with Adam on LinkedIn here.

Listen to this episode here, or on:

* YouTube

* Apple Podcasts

* Spotify

Expect to learn:

* Why solar professionals need to move away from a scarcity mindset and focus on promoting each other across the industry rather than tearing competitors down.

* The danger of the “lettuce effect” (when bad press about one company poisons public trust in the entire industry).

* The importance of respecting other energy sectors and focusing on shared humanity, even when our beliefs about climate or technology differ.

Quotes from the episode:

“The demand for energy is massive. We haven’t seen this kind of growth since the 1980s. If the industry does better, we all do better.” - Adam Larner

“No one wakes up thinking about solar other than solar people, right? It’s like air conditioning; they just don’t want it to harm them. So if we create negative energy around what we’re doing, that’s all people will remember.”- Adam Larner

Transcript:

Aaron Nichols:Adam, when I asked you what your clean energy rant is, which I ask anyone who comes on this show, you said we need to stop fighting and realize the pie is massive.

Aaron Nichols:I would love to hear you elaborate on that.

Adam Larner:Yeah, first of all, I appreciate what you are doing to just have good conversations in the industry. I think there is more collaboration and knowledge that can be shared. And there is more opportunity for builders to help companies be successful and grow in a constructive way, instead of just sniping at each other online.

Adam Larner:Obviously in a newer industry, especially a younger one, it is easy to take criticism personally and feel like everything is high stakes. There is a tendency to call people out publicly, which can sometimes be useful, but can also be pretty toxic. I really think that as people build careers in this space, there is an opportunity to step back a bit, be critical where it is needed, but not move away entirely from pointing out each other’s shortcomings.

Adam Larner:We see a ton of great new products coming out and different folks trying to carve out and create new categories, whether you are selling to installers or trying to connect consumers with different offerings. That challenge of “how do I stand out” can drive people into a mindset where they turn their competitors into villains instead of focusing on the huge amount of market that is available in this space.

Adam Larner:I think to the point of not just promoting oneself and using social and other platforms to say “we are the greatest and the best,” that is part of marketing and part of differentiation. But I really think this all has to be framed in the context of helping more projects go forward and helping more people get the benefit of clean energy.

Adam Larner:When I say “the pie,” I think that piece is really important. There is this temptation to look at it as a fixed number of projects or a fixed amount of demand and assume that if someone else wins, you lose. The reality is that the pie is growing. I would much rather see thirty, forty, fifty firms thriving than two or three mega firms drawing all the attention.

Adam Larner:One thing that is for sure, to your point, is that this industry is not going anywhere. Energy demand is increasing. Electrification is increasing. There is going to be a long, sustained need for better solutions and better experiences for customers, whether they are homeowners or big utilities.

Adam Larner:It has been a solid thirty year run at this point where every new technology or policy has made things a little better, and yet we still act like it is a zero sum game. The more we see things from a longer term view and worry less about who “won” a deal last week, the more we can focus on building the next wave of solutions together.

Adam Larner:So if we see things with that broader and long term perspective versus how to outmaneuver someone on LinkedIn this month, we can shift the conversation from “who is right” to “how do we build more, faster, and better.” The reality is, both sides in most of these arguments are blazing their own trail in some way.

Adam Larner:And obviously I am a hypocrite in a sense, because I am an entrepreneur, I care about my company, and I care about the solutions we are building. I care about growing our business. But I think if that is the only lens, we miss a much larger opportunity to collaborate and to improve how we deliver a solution in a way that is a lot more constructive.

Aaron Nichols:Of course. It takes conscious effort sometimes to get over the mentality of just trying to one up, which our whole system kind of trains us into from a young age. Less middle school energy, more university energy, am I right?

Adam Larner:Yeah, and I think we come, the industry comes, from a scarcity mindset because of how things were even ten years ago, and everyone had to fight for the same thing. I do not think our brains have caught up with the fact that there are just so many deals flowing in and so much more opportunity.

Adam Larner:I am starting to see a lot more solar companies collaborating with each other and working together where it makes sense. Part of the shift is not thinking of every interaction as “I have to get this one,” but seeing that there is a world where multiple companies can serve a customer over the life of their projects.

Adam Larner:That can mean one company handling a particular segment, another company helping with a different service, someone else being the trusted advisor. There are many ways for people to work together instead of trying to own every single thing in one place at the top of the funnel and refusing to collaborate as prospects move down.

Aaron Nichols:Well, for anyone who is listening, welcome back to This Week in Solar. As always, I am your host, Aaron Nichols, the research and policy specialist here at Exact Solar in Newtown, Pennsylvania.

Aaron Nichols:My guest today is Adam Larner, the CEO and a co-founder at Frame. Adam, would you introduce yourself and explain what Frame does and what your day to day looks like?

Adam Larner:Yeah, thanks, Aaron. So I have been in energy in some way for most of my life. I grew up in a household where my dad worked for the utility side of the world, and a lot of dinner table conversation was about generation, substations, reliability, safety, things like that.

Adam Larner:We focus entirely on large scale utility projects and grid facing infrastructure. In addition to my work at Frame, I spent years in the field as an electrician, working on the kinds of systems that actually get power from where it is generated to where it is used. So I have seen both the practical, boots on the ground side and the more strategic, software and systems side.

Aaron Nichols:Oh, cool.

Adam Larner:Yeah, yeah. Now I think we share some of the trades in that sense. I started with just a truck, installing solar on houses, running service calls, doing upgrades. Then I moved into more complex work at the utility level after being trained as an electrician.

Adam Larner:So now I am really focused on the technology and the innovation in the industry and how we actually integrate some of the best of software and AI into what the industry is already doing.

Aaron Nichols:Amazing. I want to pull a thread that came up for me, and we will go into where you see people growing the pie in a bit.

Aaron Nichols:I am interested in how you think we walk the line between doing good work and promoting that, and also being honest when there are people who are not holding themselves to a high standard.

Aaron Nichols:As someone who comes from the residential solar space, I know there are a lot of companies that have either done really poor work or have gone out of business and left homeowners high and dry.

Aaron Nichols:How do you think we hold ourselves to a high standard and elevate the industry, but keep most of the critique behind closed doors so it is constructive, instead of turning everything into a public hit piece?

Aaron Nichols:Or what do you see there?

Adam Larner:It is a good question. I think one thing that might be a bit of a folly in how we talk about this stuff is that I do not necessarily view it as one approach over another.

Adam Larner:If you are thinking about solar, there is mostly going to be a positive story because it is very close to the shopper. The whole point of this industry is to provide a better product for someone than what they had from the traditional fossil fuel energy system.

Adam Larner:There are different ways we can be forced into making trade offs as a society. If you forced me to choose certain battles, I would say I care a lot more about the consumers of energy, the human beings who are receiving the product, than about the internal scoreboard of which company “won” in a given quarter.

Adam Larner:Because what tends to happen is that if we keep the consumer and the end user at the center, we give ourselves a lot more room for error and grace in the types of projects we are doing and in how we iterate. We can try different things and still keep the north star of “are we making people’s lives better.”

Adam Larner:Especially in solar, that is the mindset I am working from, and that our founding team is working from. The question we keep coming back to is: how do we get more projects going and how do we unlock more clean energy for more people.

Adam Larner:Even to that point about industry competition and battling, what we see in any early industry is that people are still trying to figure out where they fit. There is a lot of identity building and you see folks get locked into defending a niche rather than learning from one another.

Adam Larner:So in some cases I think it is almost understandable where people will not collaborate or will not share. They believe that if they say something positive about someone else’s product, they are somehow undermining their own.

Adam Larner:It becomes more about “am I doing the best to market my product” instead of “are we, as a sector, delivering something that works for customers.” We are by no means perfect on this ourselves, but this is where we try to head.

Adam Larner:I suspect also, and you are probably closer to this than I am, that there are markets that have a lot of consolidation, where a few players dominate, and others that are fragmented. There is a big opportunity to think about what partnership and collaboration look like across that landscape.

Adam Larner:If someone really does not care and has clearly done harm, you are not going to be able to talk your way around that forever. People will figure it out. But if we spend all of our energy blasting each other in public, instead of helping solve problems for customers, I think we are missing something.

Adam Larner:There is certainly some acquisition and consolidation happening, like you said. But there is still a ton of opportunity. Even with Frame, we think a lot about how we can enable individual players that might be a one or two person local installer, or a small firm, or even a homeowner who wants to be more active, to be part of a larger ecosystem.

Adam Larner:Right now those people can be overwhelmed and not see what that unlocks for the industry. The same person who is not thinking about electrification yet might suddenly light up when they see heat pumps, induction, solar, storage, EVs, all connected.

Adam Larner:From the consumer point of view it is like air conditioning. They do not care what refrigerant or compressor it uses, they just want to know they are comfortable. In a similar way, a homeowner might only vaguely know the different pieces of the ecosystem, from solar to electrification.

Adam Larner:It is our responsibility to frame that in a way that allows folks to connect the dots and feel confident.

Aaron Nichols:Yeah, absolutely. And I think something you mentioned earlier is that we are all trying to sell, but ultimately we need the product to do what it is supposed to do for the person who bought it. Because if you sell folks solar and they are not getting the production they were promised, or the service, or the long term support, they are not going to say “that one company is bad,” they are going to say “solar is bad.”

Aaron Nichols:Then everyone is just going to be angry.

Aaron Nichols:This industry has a real problem where there are parts of it that deserve criticism and deserve to be pointed out and fixed. There are also a lot of good, reputable companies who need this industry to continue to grow and who are doing good work, but there is such a mixture in the middle and at the bottom.

Aaron Nichols:Parts of this industry have drunk the “sales modernization” Kool-Aid a little bit and it has created a really toxic, difficult space for consumers. Not that there do not need to be new sales techniques and innovation, but we have to be honest about where those go too far.

Aaron Nichols:I am curious, when it comes to getting more projects going and doing that in a sustainable way, what do you think are some of the things we could do to unlock more projects?

Adam Larner:Yeah, I agree. I think one thing is taking a step back and asking, why is it that installers find certain experiences hard.

Adam Larner:The appropriate level for this conversation is less “all the things that can be done” and more “what is it that each person can do.”

Adam Larner:For example, one thing that is underestimated in all of this, and that is a bond between me and the founding team at Frame, is that we all come from a deeply personal and deeply human approach to these products.

Adam Larner:We know that whatever process is put together, the people touching it are going to be on the receiving end of that. So if you centralize accountability but scatter responsibility in a way that is confusing, you create friction for everyone.

Adam Larner:I like to think in terms of “how am I working with the designer, how am I working with the salesperson, how am I working with the project manager.”

Adam Larner:What can we do to unlock bottlenecks together versus pushing everything back upstream or downstream in the chain.

Adam Larner:That is the biggest thing that comes to mind for me. If we design systems and processes that respect the people using them, both inside the industry and the end users, it becomes much easier to unlock more projects and do it in a way that does not burn people out.

Aaron Nichols:Yeah, I love that, and I think it really does come down to designing for how people actually behave and how they move through their day.

Aaron Nichols:Not thinking about people in theoretical abstractions, like “this rational actor will sit down and compare ten quotes in a spreadsheet and then make the optimal choice.” We know from talking to consumers that that is not how it really works.

Aaron Nichols:Even if they are going out and getting work done around the house, they might procrastinate, or flip between tabs, or get distracted by something with their kids, or they might just not be thinking about this for months at a time.

Aaron Nichols:So helping people move from that moment of motivation to actually taking action, like what you mentioned about “how am I working with salespeople, how am I working with engineers,” it is simple, but powerful.

Adam Larner:Yeah, and I think especially in the last eighteen months, there has been some real transformation across the industry in how deals are sourced and progressed.

Adam Larner:We really need to think about what that new state of the world looks like and what it means for how we operate.

Adam Larner:You could not really talk about solar without talking about modern solar sales in a different way five or six years ago. Mass outbound, door knocking, big call centers were such a dominant narrative.

Adam Larner:There has always been some call center element and some outbound element, but if you go from the early 2000s through the teens into the 2020s, modern cold calling techniques and mass commercial lead generation and financing became central.

Adam Larner:That created tremendous value, and a lot of folks benefited from it. But at the same time, people have been slow to realize how much that has shifted in the last eighteen months.

Adam Larner:I saw some data on LinkedIn recently from Jacob Hansen about folks seeking quotes in the fintech environment versus the solar side. What we have come to is this moment where the consumer actually has more power in that equation than they realize.

Adam Larner:Part of unlocking more projects is allowing consumers who want these things to feel more empowered and to move forward without a sense of pressure or guilt. Twisting arms does not serve anyone well. It just discourages people down the road from engaging again.

Aaron Nichols:Well, we have been played against each other as enemies for so long in energy. Fossil versus renewable, rooftop versus utility scale, this camp versus that camp.

Aaron Nichols:So how would you recommend that people play nice in this space? And what are some of the things you have done in your own life to bring that to fruition?

Adam Larner:I have tried to connect with people who are not in this industry and really listen to what they care about. I talk to people who work in oil and gas, people who work in nuclear, people who work in heavy industry.

Adam Larner:I try to ask “what do you need,” “what worries you,” “what do you think people in clean energy do not understand about your world.” That helps me see where there is common ground instead of just reinforcing a narrative that we have to be enemies.

Adam Larner:I also try to be curious about the technologies themselves, not just the talking points. How does nuclear actually work, how do you manage safety, how do you build infrastructure that lasts.

Adam Larner:That curiosity helps me see places where, long term, we are all going to have to work together. The grid of the future is not going to be one single technology. It will be an orchestra with a lot of players.

Adam Larner:We are still early in Frame’s journey, but I think the general sentiment we try to bring is “how do we be good neighbors in this ecosystem.” We want to support good actors, help connect people who should work together, and use modern tools in a way that feels fair and transparent.

Adam Larner:I think there are parts of what you described, like getting folks on the “nice list,” putting companies in touch with each other, doing warm intros where it makes sense, that are really powerful.

Adam Larner:And at the same time, we have to find ways to use modern tools while separating ourselves from some of the predatory practices that people understandably find off putting.

Aaron Nichols:Yeah. There are two directions I want to take this next.

Aaron Nichols:First, what is an area that you think is completely over-hyped and is taking things in the wrong direction for this industry.

Aaron Nichols:And then what is an area where you think, “we should be investing more there, and if we do not get this right, we will regret it.”

Adam Larner:It is a good question. If I were to pick one tech area that has a perceived overhype, I am more skeptical about storage for the home as the centerpiece of everything.

Adam Larner:It has its place, and it can be incredibly valuable for certain customers and in certain regions. But I think sometimes it is presented as the universal answer, when for many people, other investments like efficiency, better building envelopes, heat pumps, induction, and smarter load management might give more value first.

Adam Larner:On the flip side, the area I think we really need to invest more in is the long term, grid facing storage and flexibility solutions, at substations and across transmission networks, that let the whole system breathe.

Adam Larner:That is a place where storage, especially long duration storage, can be transformational. If we do not get that right, a lot of the other pieces are going to hit hard limits.

Aaron Nichols:To take us home, Adam, I ask everyone the same last question on this show. It comes from a family moment. I was at my grandma’s eightieth birthday party a couple of months ago, and when I was writing a LinkedIn post about it, I realized that she was born into a world where renewables as we know them did not exist.

Aaron Nichols:She was born ten years after the Rural Electrification Act. The only way we knew how to generate energy was to dig things up and burn them and then go dig up more.

Aaron Nichols:Windmills were for pumping water, not making electricity. When she was nine, the first modern PV cell was invented. Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the White House in 1979. Then at the turn of the century we started driving the price of PV down and down and down.

Aaron Nichols:All of that has happened in her lifetime. Batteries have an even crazier story arc. So, if you are just going to moonshot and spitball for fun, eighty years from now, when both of us are gone, what do you think clean energy looks like?

Adam Larner:I think it will take fifty to eighty years to truly have an integrated system where bits and electrons traverse the grid in the most efficient way.

Adam Larner:I do not think there will be one magic silver bullet, but I think we will have a grid where every substation has batteries, solar will be everywhere it makes sense to be, natural gas will be stepping in thoughtfully, nuclear will be the backbone in many places.

Adam Larner:I do not necessarily see completely new categories of energy that we have never heard of, though there will be new inventions within those spaces.

Adam Larner:The moonshot might be fusion. There is a lot of excitement there, and if we crack it in a practical way, that changes the game. But even without that, abundance is possible if we coordinate what we already have properly.

Adam Larner:I also think the perspective of elders is really important. My kids are shocked that I lived in a world without the internet. I am shocked that my dad lived in a world without television. His father lived in a world with almost no radios.

Adam Larner:You go from “How Much Is That Doggie in the Window” to the Rolling Stones within one lifetime. That is a huge jump.

Adam Larner:So for us to imagine fusion, or advanced fission, or other nuclear technologies becoming mainstream in the next eighty years is not that wild if you think about that pace of change.

Adam Larner:In the same way that we figured out how to get more food out of the same land without starving, we can figure out how to get more energy out of the same planet in a way that lets more people live well.

Aaron Nichols:Depending on where people want to connect with you, where do you want to be found, if you do want to be found?

Adam Larner:Just LinkedIn.

Aaron Nichols:Nice. Easy. All right. Thank you so much, Adam. For everyone listening, this has been This Week in Solar, and we will see you next week.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

What’s New:

Amid already all-time-high energy prices, the war in Iran has driven energy prices even higher.

Why it Matters:

Thankfully, there’s a major difference between this new war in Iran and all the other Middle Eastern conflicts that have spiked oil prices in our lifetimes: we now have viable, affordable choices over where we get our energy.

Right now, the escalating conflict in Iran is threatening the Strait of Hormuz, one of the most critical shipping lanes on the planet. Nearly 20% of the global oil supply and 30% of the seaborne oil trade pass through this strait every day.

When nearly 20% of the world’s oil and Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) can’t move, the ripple effects do a lot more than just raise prices at the pump. They hit your entire cost of living.

Your gas and electric bills, as well as the price of your food, are all affected by oil prices. Fossil fuels power the machines that grow our food and the trucks that deliver our goods. Utilities use fossil fuels to generate the energy that they bill you for. When fuel costs more, so does everything else.

It’s unfortunate that we’re involved in this conflict with Iran. We’ve seen this movie before, and it never ends well.

But this time, for the first time in history, households have the tools to opt out. The fossil fuel supply chain is a complicated Rube Goldberg machine of drilling, refining, and shipping through conflicting corridors. It’s a mess that the average person has no control over.

While we can’t transition the entire national grid to renewables overnight, there are three steps you can take today to protect your home and family.

Step 1: Put a Power Plant on Your Roof

Solar energy systems are private power plants that power your home and give a bit of extra energy back to the grid during the summer months when the sun’s out for longer.

Once installed, the fuel is free. When natural gas prices double due to global disruptions and utilities have to raise their energy prices, your fuel costs stay at zero.

If your home is fully electrified, even better. Many homeowners are now pairing solar with heat pumps and induction stoves, moving their entire household off the volatile gas grid.

Solar energy systems last 25-30 years. When you invest in solar, you lock in the same power price for decades, while everyone else has to pay ever-rising prices.

Step 2: Add Home Battery Storage

The sun doesn’t shine 24/7. If you want to really be resilient, invest in home batteries.

Think of a home battery as your personal strategic energy reserve.

When prices spike during peak grid hours or the power goes out, your home automatically taps into its stored reserves.

Depending on how you size the system, a home battery can run your whole home or just keep your fridge running, your internet on, and your family comfortable, without the noise and fumes of a gas generator (which eventually runs out of fuel).

Step 3: Turn Your Transportation Into a Home Battery

The average American family spends more than $4,000 a year on gasoline. Transitioning to an Electric Vehicle (EV) can dramatically lower the cost of driving, especially if you’re filling the battery with free fuel from the sun.

And later this year, bidirectional charging, or Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) technology will hit the market.

The average EV holds 5–10x more energy than a standard home battery. It takes a ton of energy to power a car. With V2H, your car can actually power your entire house during an emergency.

Take Back Control

Imagine if, two years from now, energy prices have gone up another 20-40%. If you make the right choices now, it just won’t affect you or your family. You’ll use free energy to power your home and your vehicle. Your home will be protected in emergencies.

For decades, energy security was a government issue that was subject to whatever conflict we happened to be in. Today, it’s a household choice.

If you live in New Jersey or Pennsylvania, Exact Solar would love to work with you to help you opt out of rising fuel prices and opt into personal energy security. Just go to exactsolar.com, fill out our free estimate form, and we’ll be in touch to set up an appointment.

Sources:

US energy prices were set to rise long before the Iran war

How will soaring oil prices caused by Iran war impact food costs?

How War in Iran Is Straining the U.S. Economy

Gasoline prices are still rising as the Iran war stretches into its third week

Why We’re Excited About Enphase Bidirectional EV Charging

Bidirectional Charging (V2G) in 2026: Which Cars Finally Support It?

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

Aaron talks with Derek The Solarboi, one of the few influencers in the solar industry.

Derek is a master electrician, lead technician, and content creator dedicated to showing the world the reality of life on the roof.

Listen to this episode on:

* YouTube

* Apple Podcasts

* Spotify

Connect with Derek on LinkedIn here.

Expect to learn:

* The critical disconnect between the CEOs setting metrics and the technicians on the ground installing systems.

* The unintended consequences of the 2017 rapid shutdown codes (they introduced unnecessary complexity, cost, and points of failure to residential solar).

* Why Derek chose to rock a bright purple beard.

Quotes from the episode:

“There is a big gap between what the commentary class in solar is and what actually happens on the ground... the stuff that I find very important as a technician, as an electrician, is the stuff that affects the customers.”

- Derek The Solarboi

“I think my expectation is that [in 80 years] there will be rich people who will intentionally not install solar... not having solar will be seen as the rich person thing to do because solar will be so cheap and so common.”

- Derek The Solarboi

Transcript:

Aaron Nichols: Derek, public figure is not a typical career path for solar installers or electricians. Why did you decide to become an educator and entertainer?

Derek The Solarboi: Um, there is a big gap between what the commentary class in solar, uh, is and what actually happens on the ground. Um, so like, you know, there’s, there’s plenty of media out there in terms of, you know, consumer looking at the industry or the CEO talking about the industry or, you know, finance people talking about, you know, the greater economic things that are happening in the solar industry, but like the stuff that obviously I find very important as a technician, as an electrician is the stuff that’s on the ground, the things that affect the customers, the things that affect, you know, these installations and that bleed out into public perception sometimes, you know, when people can’t get service for their systems or their systems are failing that kind of thing, that I have a lot of experience with that I want to share with as many people as possible.

So the goal is to reduce the gap between the people on the ground who are dealing with the technical stuff and actually installing these systems and, you know, closing that gap with the people who make the decisions, the CEOs, the managers, all those people. Because, you know, I don’t know if you’ve gone from the level of the doing the work towards a more managerial position and realizing like, very quickly you start to lose context if you’re not super careful about it with what’s actually happening on the ground. And you’re just trying to hit metrics and you’re trying to hit whatever KPIs. And everything becomes, you know, an acronym and there gets to, you know, you want to stay in touch with the actual, what’s happening on the ground, right, so that you could be effective in what you’re actually selling and what you’re actually installing.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah. I mean, that’s a huge need and, you know, I really want to make what we do interesting to the public and I’m always experimenting to see what’s more interesting to the public and I consider myself a nerd whisperer. I’m always trying to take what’s technical and translated into interesting stories that people can consume, but I certainly lack the technical foundation that you have and so I’ve found your content very, very helpful.

Derek The Solarboi: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. The challenge is of course like I’m still working, you know, 40-hour week job and, you know, as a technician, as an electrician. And there’s so many so much time in the week, right? So, you know, I do want to branch out into more longer-form stuff. But, you know, when you are still driving, you know, two hours to a job site every day or whatever, you know, you have less time. So my home has felt, it’s felt very We at home on places like Instagram, TikTok, those, the vertical, short-form media stuff. But I get a video, I get a YouTube video out, ever so often, when I can, so.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah. Well, I look forward to the drive to the job site podcast, when that releases.

Derek The Solarboi: For my safety guy, I would not like that.

Aaron Nichols: For everyone who’s listening, welcome back to this week’s Solar. I’m your host, Aaron Nichols, the research and policy specialist here, exact solar in Newtown, Pennsylvania. And today, we have one of the more recognizable faces in the solar industry on the show, Derrick the Solar Boy. Now, Derrick, if you wouldn’t mind introducing yourself and just talking about who you are and what your day-to-day job is like.

Derek The Solarboi: Also, my name is Derrick the Solar Boy. That is my moniker on the internet. B-O-I. If you’re looking up. A B-O-I, yes, with a nine out of why, for sure. I, so I’m a solar technician and electrician and I’m a master electrician in five, six states, something like that. You know, the states that are useful around in the area. But I am the lead technician for the company I work for and I go out and fix people’s problems on solar installations. I’ve worked in residential, I’ve worked in commercial. The one that I have, the place that I’m working right now is much more focused towards commercial and small utility, so that is primarily what I’m working these days.

Aaron Nichols: Okay. I’m interested, I just want to pull a thread for fun. You said, lead electrician for the company you work for. I’m not going to press you on that because on your LinkedIn it says it’s like undisclosed, but is that because you decided to be a content creator, you thought that you would keep it separate in your public persona?

Derek The Solarboi: It is. There was an issue at the previous place I worked for where there was somebody who got cranky in Idaho or something about one of my videos where I was not being perhaps as safe as I should have been. And it became a whole problem. And so since then, I have kept my online identity fairly separate from my actual joby job. So that is why I get a little bit more cagey when it comes to details.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, that’s that’s interesting. That’s an angle I hadn’t considered since, you know, thought leadership for me is just standing in this blank room. I can be pretty safe right here, you know. I’m not there’s no harness I should be wearing while I’m talking to you on the computer.

Derek The Solarboi: Well, and that’s the thing, like that’s the other reason why you don’t see a whole lot of people like me doing content is because the industry for for many good and bad reasons, very, very risk averse. And when you have somebody who’s on a site doing content about actual work, actual electrical work, there are so many things to think about when you’re looking at safety. Not just like are you actually being safe, but do you have the appearance, the full appearance of being safe? Because if you aren’t really careful, like if you do an edit that makes it look like you haven’t done a thing that you’re supposed to do, you’re I have a ton of comments from people saying, I don’t know if you didn’t do this thing or nothing. You know, because people get lost that there’s potentially more context than what is being presented. Right. So, that is tricky. And it’s really, really difficult to get somebody to agree to let somebody do something like this. You know, I know friends who have done content creation and have moved other companies that then realized, Oh, wow, these people have decided that they didn’t like this anymore, and it’s totally screwed them over that way. Yeah, it’s tricky, and it’s why you’re not going to hear as many people from my area of the industry talking about stuff, because talking about things while you’re in the field, according to things while you’re in the field, it’s just safety guys don’t like it.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, and I think you have a little more to lose in that avenue. you know, then maybe me or someone who’s in marketing or someone who’s more of like a manager, you know, a CEO. But I think that when you make the decision to open yourself to the public, you are inviting criticism. There’s just, just certain members of the public who are, you know, I like to report one star reviews of local businesses from time to time because I used to work in hospitality and I understand that there’s just certain people you’re never gonna make happy.

Derek The Solarboi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. For sure.

Aaron Nichols: Now, Derek, you have, for anyone who’s listening, Derek has a bright purple beard. And I am interested to ask you about it because I’m curious if it was a gimmick for the channel or did you have it before you started? Does it mean anything to you? What is the significance of the purple beard?

Derek The Solarboi: So there is no like deep meaning to the purple beard. It’s just fun. And I like doing, I love doing fun things. So, you know, the purple beard is fun. It is, you know, very consciously something that, oh, I can continue to do this to stand out on social media as, you know, eye-catching type of a thing. So, there’s a tiny bit of cynicism to it, but not all that much. I love my purple beard. And I get comments on it regularly from customers as well. Like, you know, I’ve gotten questions from people will be like, what doesn’t, isn’t, wouldn’t that be end up being inappropriate for customers? Like it seems like you’re just trying to get attention or whatever customers love talking about it. I get a lot of positive comments about it. It’s fun.

Aaron Nichols: That’s amazing, man. Yeah, and so anything you can do to be remembered is important. And it’s also just a good beard. Like I think you think you get away with it because it’s a good, thick beard. not everyone can grow on like that.

Derek The Solarboi: Yeah, I am blessed with my facial hair, for sure.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, me too. Anyway, bouncing off that topic, you run a forum called the 3-7-4-1 reference, and you told me that you aim to reduce the amount of rapid shutdown devices on the roof. Show is meant to be accessible for people who have zero experience with solar energy, and so I’d love to set the stage here. So first of all, what is rapid shutdown for people who have no idea.

Derek The Solarboi: Yeah, so rapid shutdown is a requirement that came into the electrical code in 2017. It got implemented closer to 2019, so from then on we’ve had this requirement where, if you have a module, a solar panel up on your roof, that solar panel needs to have its voltage cut off after the panel almost immediately after it leaves it. So, solar panels are always on. They’re all, like, as long as the sun’s out, the solar panel is energized. So, the only way to do this to do the module level, the panel level wrap and shut down is to have a device under every single panel, really. I mean, we’ve cut it down to, you know, having a device for every two for some systems, but for residential, especially, it’s pretty much still one to one and what that turns into you end up doubling or tripling the number of connectors that you have on the roof. You have these electronic devices up there that just have objectively a higher chance of failing over the course of their life.

And not only that, if it’s one panel, say you have an optimizer or a microinverter up there and one of them goes down. The cost to replace one of those, even if you get the new device for free from the manufacturer, you still probably are gonna have to pay some for labor and that labor for one module repair is really expensive to, once you amortize that out across the next couple of years, right? It’s just a lot of complexity for not a lot of benefit. It was a reaction to firefighters around the early teens or so being afraid of fighting fires on groups with solar panels on them. So this is sort of a knee-jerk in the other direction from the insurance industry, from firefighters to try to make it as apparently safe as possible for people. and we have seen a lot of failures with these kinds of systems, you know, optimizers, you’re gonna probably have some optimizer failures over the course of your system, right? And you’re gonna have to pay somebody to fix them unless you have a really good warranty with your installer. And yeah, it’s just, it’s a lot of complexity that we don’t have to have. It doesn’t have to be that level of safety. We can bring it back a couple of notches, and that’s what UL3741, or it’s better termed PV hazard control, PV hazard control systems. That’s what that aims to help with. So PV hazard control systems, let’s a lot of these listed systems allow you to have up to 600 volts within the array still. So you don’t have to do module level rapid shutdown.

Aaron Nichols: So just to summarize for anyone who’s listening, please correct me if I’ve got this wrong, but in the early 2000s, firefighters were worried about being electrocuted when they had to show up to a house with solar panels on the roof and hack through it to hack holes on the roof so that they could get water into the home and fight the fires. So they passed that concern on. At that point, we introduced codes that said that you had to be able to shut the whole system down from, you know, immediately. And that meant that we introduced a lot more complexity into solar energy systems. And then when you introduce complexity into a system, there’s more chances that it’s going to fail because there’s more points of failure. Do I have that about right?

Derek The Solarboi: Yeah, and I think it was 2010 or 2012 that there was a big fire in New Jersey on, I forget I forget the name of the place, but it was a prominent news story at the time that the firefighter chief was like, well, we’re not going to fight the fire on this thing because we don’t know if you’re going to get shocked by the solar panels. It’s not likely for a firefighter to actually get shocked when interacting with these systems and we don’t have any data about firefighters actually being harmed by interacting with solar installations when they’re on fire. There’s just no data out there. We don’t know as far as we know, nobody’s actually been harmed by this. So it’s going to need jerk in a direction that has increased more complexity. It costs more upfront, right? It costs more to install the system. It costs more to maintain the system. We need to get it back to a more reliable situation.

Aaron Nichols: Okay, so we’ve added a bunch of unnecessary cost into solar energy systems, what can we do to remove that cost?

Derek The Solarboi: So when they introduced module level rapid shutdown to the code in 2017, they also had a clause in there about, you know, if it’s otherwise listed to be safe, right, and then they later in a later code revision, they termed it PV hazard control systems. That’s what 3741 is, so typically how it works right now is a racking system will get this listing with, you know, with the inverters, with the devices that they use to shut down the, you know, do the array level shutdown, because you still need to shut down the array. But it’s really difficult if you don’t know, if you don’t want to pour through just a ton of manuals to find what’s compatible with what? Because for a while, the racking system would pick some inverters. And then that would be how you would know if those inverters you could use in this scenario. But the inverters often didn’t have that information on their website. So anyway, that’s why I made pvheasantcontrol.com. It lets designers help know what is compatible with what and how it gets installed just through this website. So you can look up any manufacturer inverter racking system, and it explains how the stuff works, so I have myself just installed a solar installation on my house with PV has control and a more novel listing, like there’s a listing company up in Canada that the CSA that they allow for racking to do a more general listing, so allow you to use any inverter that’s listed to this other listing, etc., you know, complicated stuff still. But I was able to use a solar converter and a midnight string shutdown and a, you know, and a terrogene racking system. And they all work together in this listing as much more flexible. So, very pleased with that. And I’m hoping that those systems are where we’re headed in the future to make it easier for designers to use this stuff.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, I’m going to have to pick your brand because I think next spring or summer, I’m going to be doing it on my own home, and so I’m excited to go through that process as well. Would you say the name of the website one more time, and I’ll make sure I put it in the show notes?

Derek The Solarboi: Yeah, it’s pvhazardcontrol.com.

Aaron Nichols: Perfect. And outside of rapid shutdown and the need to simplify the tech stack out in the field, What are some of the top mistakes that you see when you’re out in the field, expecting and checking things out? I’m interested in, if there’s anything you see over and over again that just drives you crazy, especially for us as an EPC, something that we can pass along to our install team and avoid.

Derek The Solarboi: Yeah, I mean, most of the time, if you have good, you know, if you’re teaching your ops people properly, really the most of the time what you’re going to see in terms of failures is inverters. Inverters, optimizers, microinverters, the electronics. Combs can be really big communications. So most of the time we hook up these inverters to the internet. So depending on what source you have for that internet, if you’re doing it over Wi-Fi, that will drop out anytime that the customer decides to replace their router. So that’s always annoying. I never use Wi-Fi, I always use a hardline ethernet, maybe cellular, but yeah so most of the time we’re looking at inverter failures and you know can I can I call on a people know this about me I do not love the reliability that we’ve seen with solar edge inverters especially over the last five years or so and that That is one of the reasons that I’m, and before that, certainly optimizers were dying all the time as well, hence my desire to tell people about these things and create these resources for people to be able to get away from this kind of stuff, to not be locked into a single manufacturer, right? Like, I don’t know, I’m a problem with solar edge existing. I have a problem with it feeling like we are forced to use solar edge, because, you know, Well, one of the three manufacturers, the petition for the module level rapid shutdown, revision in the code in 2017 was solar edge, and then it was also end phase, and then it was Tygo. All companies that very greatly profited off of that code change. So, hopefully, we’re able to swing around to where we’re not locked into these optimizer and micro-inverter solutions, and it’s easier to design around more string inverters type of a system.

Aaron Nichols: OK. Yeah, this is one thing that we love about being a behind-the-meter EPC is that we can be product agnostic and then just install over time, just install more and more of what works.

Derek The Solarboi: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I mean, and every inverter manufacturer has their moments of failures and like bad products like, you know, especially when a new form factor of inverters is introduced often, you’ll see like a rash of those failing and then they get over it and they move on and so it varies, it varies.

Aaron Nichols: So you’ve been doing this a lot longer than I have. I’m almost at three years in the solar industry.

Derek The Solarboi: Nice. Oh, now you’re becoming a senior, though. I mean, three years doesn’t take long. It amazed me. So I started back in 2014 and it amazed me. Like once I was five years in, how I basically was one of the old guard at that point, right? Like it doesn’t, it doesn’t take long, which is really cool. Like if you’re joining into the solar industry and, you know, having electrical background is great. Obviously, if you’re doing install. But even if you’re not, we still need so many people in this industry as it continues to grow, despite whatever the government does to try to kill it. It’s going to continue to grow. And we’re going to continue to need people who are technical. And if you dive into and care about the technical stuff and and really focus on making that your primary goal, you’re gonna advance so fast in this industry and find out that you, all of a sudden, are one of the people that knows the things that everybody calls about, you know.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, that’s good to know. I think I definitely need to spend some more time on the technical side, but. Yeah, it can be intimidating as someone who comes in brand new. Just like, because everybody who’s been here for longer than five, ten years, they’re all like best friends and godparents to each other’s children. And so they meet each other at conferences and they do a Viking handshake and they’re like, brother, we’ve been forward to the fires of war.

Derek The Solarboi: That’s pretty accurate, yep.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, that’s pretty cool. But I’m curious, what are some of the major changes you’ve seen since you started?

Derek The Solarboi: That’s a good question. So I only started really paying attention to the larger, like, I don’t know, political side is like the right way to frame it. But like the economic, the larger solar industry, I’ve only really been paying attention to that more in the last like three, four years or so. So I mean, all I know is what has changed since we started in And since I started in 2014, but even then, I never installed any central inverters, but that used to be the go-to thing for commercial projects is install a central inverter, which is just a huge, you know, couple hundred kilowatt inverter that’s, you know, 480 volts, it sits on a big pad on the ground and you run all your stuff down, all your modules down and parallel them all together there in one big chunky cable. And we’ve gone from that to string inverters all the time. And then, of course, sort of the code enforced optimizer solution or rapid shutdown solution, which that’s kind of the biggest thing.

Aaron Nichols: Now, to bring it home, Derek, I ask everyone who comes onto the show the same closing question. And it has to do with the fact that But I spoke in my grandma’s 80th birthday party last summer. And when I was sitting there writing a post about it afterwards, I realized that 80 years means she was born into a world where renewable energy did not exist. And windmills just pumped water back then, maybe generate electricity. I should Google that at some time, I’m not sure. But PV wasn’t invented till 1954, and then wasn’t even a viable technology until the 70s. And Jimmy Carter put solar on the White House in 79, but that was solar thermal, and everything that’s happened since her birth has been the birth of renewable energy as well, all the way till now when it’s the cheapest source of power. So if you are just going to moonshot to take us out here, what do you think clean energy it looks like 80 years from now. And don’t worry, we’ll both be dead unless medical science advances. So no one will hold us to the answer.

Derek The Solarboi: That is true, wow, that’s it, wow, what a thought. That’s pretty, wow. Okay, my answer on that would be, I mean, I would expect that certainly 80 years from now it’s gonna be fairly default when installing a new house, when putting in a new house. like I think my expectation is that there will be rich people who will intentionally not install solar and not having solar will be seen as the rich person thing to do because it will be so cheap and so common and it will be just so expected. We’ll just have backyard nuclear reactors, which is the seed dropping. You know, nuclear people keep saying it’s gonna make sense financially, and they keep costing too much. I don’t have a problem with nuclear. To be clear every time I talk about renewables and talk about nuclear as well. I’m like, I don’t mind nuclear, nuclear seems great. We just need to figure out how to make a cost rate.

But yeah, I think it will become a default for most people. I think it will become an industry like HVAC where maybe not every house has a solar on it and just like not every house has HVAC but it’s going to be common enough that you’re going to have several local HVAC service companies or solar service companies in your area and it’s just a fact of life. It’s just a thing. It’s just another appliance you have in your house and it’s going to I mean, a lot more portability for people as well, I think, you know, the batteries and solar panels that we have, you know, that are sort of geared towards people who are camping or just kind of want a portable power source, like that’s just the start of this industry, or if that part of this industry, and there’s a lot more to go.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah. I mean, that’s my favorite thing in the world. I have a 200 watt solar panel from Craigslist and old battery bank and a star link and I can now just work from the woods as a Colorado boy.

Derek The Solarboi: Yeah.

Aaron Nichols: Well, Derek, thank you so much for coming on today. Where do you like to be found online?

Derek The Solarboi: So you can find me at solarboy.com, all my links there. But I do have a bunch of other projects that I have going on all the time. And if you want to follow me and my projects, you can find that stuff at buildshiny.com. One of my secret side projects recently has been restoring and posting old national electrical codes in their entirety as PDFs online so that people can see them and figure, see how where we’ve come from so that we can kind of better understand how we got here and where we’re going in the future. So, that’s been a bit of an all-encompassing fascination for me, but any projects I start in the future, you can find it, buildshiny.com.

Aaron Nichols: Amazing. Yeah. I think that maybe that’s the podcast, as you do, maybe sort of like a drunk history thing. You just read old electrical codes that you’ve restored.

Derek The Solarboi: This is my hope. Honestly, there’s a bunch of documents that I would love to just read aloud as a performance piece for a video. So I think it’s gonna happen, but I gotta do a couple of, I gotta close out a couple of the projects in mind first.

Aaron Nichols: Well, thank you so much for coming on today Derek and for everyone listening, that’s been this week in solar.

Derek The Solarboi: My pleasure, thanks for having me.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

What’s New:

We’ve been tracking the national plug-in/balcony solar movement for weeks, so if you’d like to catch up on how balcony solar works and what’s holding it back, we’ve included links to the past four episodes in the “Sources" section of today’s Substack email.

The “permissionless” solar movement is moving fast.

On March 11, 2026, Virginia’s House unanimously (96 yes’s, 0 no’s) passed a bill to legalize balcony solar, officially making them the second state to do so.

The bill now awaits Governor Abigail Spanberger’s signature. Spanberger ran on an energy affordability platform last year, so she’s expected to sign the bill into law.

Now, the spotlight shifts to the Midwest and Northeast as several states race to be next.

Why it Matters

The map of states planning to allow “plug-and-play” solar is expanding rapidly:

* Virginia: Gov. Abigail Spanberger is expected to sign the bill this month. Once live in January 2027, it will allow 1,200-watt systems (roughly 3-4 panels depending on panel efficiency and size) and will prevent landlords from banning them for most renters.

* Total state tally: Legislation has now been introduced in 30 states, including Minnesota.

* Active states: Legislation to legalize plug-in solar is actively moving in Illinois, Vermont, Washington, Colorado, and New Hampshire.

* Stalled states: Indiana, Missouri, Hawaii, and New Mexico have deferred or failed to advance their bills before the end of their legislative sessions.

* Failed States: Legislatures in Arizona, Oregon, Wyoming, and Georgia have yielded to utility pressure and allowed their bills to die in the state legislatures.

Solar Fire Safety Mechanisms May Have Caused Fires

What’s New

A critical safety component required by U.S. electrical codes may actually be making commercial solar energy systems less safe.

A new report from HelioVolta reveals that Rapid Shutdown Devices (or RSDs), which were originally designed to prevent fires and protect firefighters, are frequently failing and causing fires.

Why It Matters

RSDs were mandated by the National Electrical Code (NEC) to de-energize panels fast so first responders wouldn’t be shocked during a fire.

However, HelioVolta argues the requirement has had “unintended consequences.”

According to HelioVolta’s analysis of over 500 commercial rooftop systems:

* RSDs have caused several fires: 21 fires have been caused specifically by RSD failures since 2021.

* There were unintended consequences: The National Electrical Code Standard forced the widespread installation of thousands of tiny, complex electronic devices in harsh, unserviceable rooftop environments. This has created safety concerns rather than solved them.

* RSDs don’t add value: Unlike microinverters or optimizers, basic RSDs don’t improve energy production; they exist solely for code compliance, making commercial solar energy systems more expensive as a result.

Experts warn that as these millions of installed devices age, “worst-case scenario” failures will become more frequent.

Next Wednesday’s interview on This Week In Solar is with Derek The Solarboi, who’s been an outspoken critic of rapid shutdown for years. Stay tuned.

Sources:

Catch up on our balcony solar reporting:

2/20: More States Consider Legalizing Plug-In Solar

2/27: What You Should Know About Plug-In Solar

03/06: The Complete List of States Considering Plug-In Solar:

03/13: New Website Tracks All Plug-In Solar Bills

Virginia legislature passes balcony solar bill | Utility Dive

Balcony solar bill gains momentum in Illinois | Canary Media

Virginia to become second state that allows balcony solar

https://pluginsolarguide.com/

SB250 - 2026 Regular Session | LIS

HelioVolta report claims RSDs put commercial solar projects at risk

Solar Inspection Data Links Rapid Shutdown Devices to Safety Risks

Rapid Shutdown Devices and Safety in Commercial Solar

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

When the public’s trust is at an all-time low, how can reliable solar companies connect with customers?

In this episode, Aaron sits down with Kristina Zagame, Senior Content Producer at EnergySage and host of Plugged In.

Kristina opens up about the power of personal storytelling, why solar is fundamentally an American value, and how the industry can recover from the “solar is dead” panic of last year.

You can listen to this episode here, or on:

* YouTube

* Apple Podcasts

* Spotify

Connect with Kristina on LinkedIn here.

Expect to Learn:

* Why many companies are moving away from faceless branding and empowering employees to build personal brands.

* How focusing on a single human story (like the “neighbor test”) drives action.

* Tips for bridging the political divide (framing solar not as a tool for personal freedom).

Quotes:

"I've always considered myself a storyteller. The core of what I do is tell stories and give people answers."

- Kristina Zagame

"Fundamentally, we don't really trust brands or companies the way that maybe we once did. I think it's more important to have faces that people can resonate with."

- Kristina Zagame

Transcript:

Aaron Nichols: Kristina, over the last year, you’ve become one of the most successful representations of what I like to call the “in-house influencer.” I think a lot of people would call that a thought leader nowadays as well. And I think you have a very unique perspective on this since you’ve spent so long working in media. Why do you think so many companies are now putting faces behind their names in new ways?

Kristina Zagame: Okay, well first of all, thank you so much for saying all of that. I had no idea I was so influential.

Aaron Nichols: I’m still stoked you’re here. You do.

Kristina Zagame: Oh, well, thank you. I’m a huge fan of yours as well. And yeah, honestly, I think so... of course, yeah, I have a background in media. When I actually got hired into EnergySage, it had nothing to do with being on camera or doing any sort of video or influencer, or thought leader, anything. I really was just hired on as a writer.

I’ve had experience in journalism. I’ve had on-camera stuff. And during my interviews, when I would bring up my background, a lot of people would say, “Oh, you know, we’ve always had this idea to do more videos. We’ve always had this idea to do a show.” And they kind of pitched what is now Plugged In to me.

And I said, “If you hire me, I can make that happen.” Like, I was very much like, “Oh, great. I can do all of those things. You need to edit it? Cool. You need me to produce it? Cool. You need me to do this? Cool. Like, I got you.” So I think that was maybe part of the reason why I ended up getting the job. They’re all really excited about that.

Aaron Nichols: That’s my exact trajectory at Exact Solar. Yeah. Same thing. Hard to be right here. Yeah. I think all the best roles come from starting as a writer.

Kristina Zagame: But yeah, I think, honestly, companies realize... well, I think fundamentally we don’t really trust brands or companies the way that maybe we once did. At least for most people, you see most products are now being sold by influencers. Because if, you know, this company, if ABC tells me they have the best bubble gum on the market, I’m not going to trust them. But if my favorite YouTuber is saying, “I only chew ABC gum,”—which I just realized has already been chewed, so that’s gross—but anyway, if my favorite person is selling me, I’m way more likely to trust it versus the brand.

And I think that translates really well into what we do, too. You know, we can work for great companies. I love EnergySage as a company. Ethically, morally, they align with what I believe in. But a lot of people, you know, they see the bottom line. They see it as a business at the end of the day. It is a business. So I think it’s more important to have faces that people can resonate with. They trust... they say, “You know, Kristina has this background in journalism.”

It has always been my professional duty to try to be as unbiased as possible. Of course, I have bias in that, you know, I support clean energy and I think it’s truly great—although I feel like that’s not really a bias, it’s fact, but I’m sure we’ll get more into that. But, you know, I think people see me and know that it does not affect my bottom line whether they buy into what I’m saying or not. It’s really just me telling them what I’ve researched, what I know to be true, what I’ve learned through my learnings and interviews and talking to people.

So, I think that’s why this—and I hate the term influencer, but that is so—so I think that’s why influencer culture has become what it is now.

Aaron Nichols: Thought leader is the new influencer. Thought leader is going to be as cringy in a year, but yes. That’ll be your song a lot nicer at the moment.

I think I’m interested—and you can confirm or deny this as you see fit since you have a lot more experience in this area than I do—but it seems like it’s smart for companies to build in-house channels just for the simple reason that earned media doesn’t have the effect that it used to as well.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah, I think so. It’s interesting. One of the people who I interviewed for an episode of Plugged In is a YouTuber. I’ve interviewed a lot of YouTubers. They have their own name, their own channel. They’re not affiliated with any one company. They sort of gave me a piece of advice, a warning of, “You know, if you are just EnergySage, people aren’t going to subscribe or interact or be as engaged with instead of just being, ‘I’m Kristina Zagame.’”

And that was really early on. And I did, I took a little bit of the feedback only to my team to say, “Hey, I don’t think I should post on my own account.” Like, I obviously still work for this company, we’re coming to people from EnergySage. And I think EnergySage is in a unique position because we are completely free for the consumer. So people don’t feel as much like we’re trying to sell to them because it’s a completely free service for them to use.

But I did take that in trying to make myself more personable in my writing. I use a lot of “I” instead of “we,” just because I think that it is, again, so important for people to really connect with the person rather than the brand. So I’m not really sure if that answers your question.

Aaron Nichols: No, it certainly does. I just published an article on storytelling, and I dropped this line on the latest SunCast episode I was on to a good laugh, but I think no one wakes up and says, “I wonder what Bank of America is up to today?”

Kristina Zagame: That’s cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Nichols: You’re interested in people. You’re interested in journey.

Well, for anyone listening, welcome back to This Week in Solar. I’m your host, Aaron Nichols, the Storytelling and Policy Specialist here at Exact Solar in Newtown, Pennsylvania. And my guest today is Kristina Zagame.

Kristina, would you just briefly introduce yourself now that we’ve launched in and talk about your day-to-day life as the Senior Content Producer at EnergySage? Or is it Senior Content Producer 2? Did I get that?

Kristina Zagame: Yes, that just means I leveled up, right, in my career.

Aaron Nichols: Oh, okay. It’s good content to see.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah. No, although it often feels like... Senior Content Producer, Senior Content Researcher, whatever you want to call me.

My day-to-day really isn’t very glamorous. It’s a lot of time of me spent staring at my computer screen, reading a lot of research, reading a lot of thought leader posts on LinkedIn, trying to just get a pulse on what people are talking about in regards to energy, clean energy, any sort of home electrification topics.

And then, in regards to Plugged In, it’s a lot of reaching out, networking, talking to different influencers, researchers, scientists, you name it to get them onto the show to bring their expertise to our consumers.

But ultimately I think my job, like if I were to really pare it down, I’ve always considered myself a storyteller. I went into journalism as a young 17-year-old because I wanted to tell stories and I wanted to give people answers. And I think even though my career and job and overall trajectory has changed so many times, that is still the core of what I do, whether it is in web format for energysage.com or whether it’s for Plugged In, or even just messaging people on LinkedIn or whatever it is, the core of what I do is tell stories and give people answers.

Aaron Nichols: I’m interested to hear you elaborate on what storytelling means to you. And if you’ve read a lot of my LinkedIn content, you know I’m very biased in this area because energy as an industry for so long didn’t really have to tell compelling stories because it was just made up of regional monopolies. Now we need to, but our example is so far behind. And a lot of people who are very technically minded who work in industry, who work in energy, think that storytelling just means “let’s just make more graphs and make them look prettier.” I would love to hear from someone who’s been storytelling their entire career. What that means to you?

Kristina Zagame: Yes, yeah, definitely. For me, I honestly think when I think of storytelling, I think of telling one person’s story, right? So we can all read the charts: electricity bills are like this, right? Or like this—I don’t know what flip of the camera is. Our electricity bills are through the roof. When you hear that, you know it.

But then if you change it and you say, “Hey, my neighbor is a single mother with three kids and she got her utility bills and she’s broken into tears. She can’t pay it. She doesn’t know what to do. She might have to...” You know, if you start painting that picture, it gives people a different sense of, “Oh, this is a huge thing that’s happening.”

People know electricity bills are spiking, but until they fully firsthand experience it, where they see it happening to someone they know, or they hear it told in a compelling way... And that’s not to say that we should exaggerate things or clickbait things, like these are real stories that are happening. For me, it’s about finding those stories and telling them to people in a way that it’s going to resonate with people because I think at the end of the day, if you hear, “Okay, utility bills are happening, geez, that sucks,” move on. But if you hear this story about your neighbor... that’s the sort of thing that mobilized people to really want to take action to help in any way that they can.

Aaron Nichols: There’s some very sound social science behind what you’re saying as well, and this is... I’m very glad to hear that what has been sort of an instinctual soapbox rant for me is being validated by some of my soap experience. But there’s a reason that humane societies show you one puppy at a time. If the humane society says “we have a hundred dogs,” you’re like, “that’s way too big of a problem for me to even think about,” but if they’re like, “you can adopt Spud right now.” You’re so much more likely to take action because we can connect all things, but numbers, big problems, feel so out of hand so quickly.

Kristina Zagame: That is so true. You have to create, even if it’s a huge problem, it has to be a bite-size problem first if people feel like they can actually make a difference and make a change.

Aaron Nichols: Right. New York Times did that beautifully a couple months ago with the story of that Georgia single mother who was working three jobs, couldn’t get ahead. Her energy bills put her over the edge and she was just spiraling out of control. That’s probably where my example came from.

Kristina Zagame: It wasn’t on purpose, but I definitely could see that piece. So inherently, yeah. And I think that was one thing I learned pretty early on in journalism too, is, you know, you have to personalize everything, even if it’s not something that is fully personal.

I think even in breaking things down and checking things easier... you know, for a story about virtual power plants. That’s something that like no one cares when you say “virtual power” to it. But I said, “What if I told you you had a lemonade stand?” And this like, you know, who didn’t have a lemonade stand at least once when they were a kid or have kids who want to do a lemonade stand? That is something that people can easily latch onto and understand.

So I think to long-windedly answer your question: anytime that you can make a story personalized, make it interesting, give it that human feel. That’s what’s gonna work and that’s what storytelling really means to me.

Aaron Nichols: Amazing. And you, after running this show for a little while, exclusively focused on solar energy as someone who works for a solar company, you have some great insight and data on what most interests the public about solar. So I’m curious to hear you elaborate on that because I think it’s not always easy to get the public interested in it, especially because it’s too good at what it does. It just sits there and makes power. There’s no whirling. It’s very boring. So what [interests] the public about solar?

Kristina Zagame: Honestly, I wish I had some sort of profound answer for you here. I honestly just think it’s about money. The biggest thing about solar right now is: How much is it going to cost? Will it actually save me money? And when and how much is my return on investment? I think that’s where everyone’s mind is at right now.

And honestly, I think that is okay. I think right now, we are at such a period where people are struggling. Everything is expensive. I feel like every time I take a breath, it costs me $5. Especially living in Massachusetts. I mean, it’s truly... I can’t commute to work without spending 20 bucks. It’s really gotten out of control.

And so I think for people, you know, it’s just a gateway to: “Oh okay, there’s this one thing that’s going to go up on my roof. I’m not going to have to worry about it and it’s just going to save me money on these outrageous energy bills and then in the five years and seven years and 10 years, whatever it is, it will be completely paid off and I’ll just be enjoying the fruits of the labor.” I think what that’s what really gets people interested.

And then hopefully they stay around long enough to hear about all of the other benefits or, you know, if they get solar purely for the financial benefit, they might not realize that they’re also doing other great things like lowering their carbon footprint and ultimately helping their community, their neighborhood, their planet.

So at the end of the day, you know, if money is what interests people, money talks, and unfortunately we are at a time where people need to take care of their finances first and foremost. You know, there are people who have the means to get solar and are just like “Yeah I wanted to do something good for the environment so I put solar panels on my roof and I don’t really care if it’s using money.” That’s awesome. It’s not the reality for a lot of people. It’s an extensive product unfortunately.

So yeah I think that is what interests the public more but I also do feel like we have seen a big shift particularly within the last year, of more people interested in the idea of just generating their own power, specifically with battery storage, you know, having the backup and the energy independence of it. That has definitely been a huge motivator within the last year, and something that I think will increasingly hear as time goes on.

Aaron Nichols: I see that as very American as well, and that’s something that we try to lean into when we’re marketing to more conservative customers is just, you know, this has exclusively been owned by someone else for so long you can own it. You can control it.

Kristina Zagame: Mm-hmm. That’s actually why we did a whole Fourth of July themed episode on “Solar is American” because it truly is. If you think about... and I interviewed some solar installers that also happened to be former military members, and they said, if you think about the values of solar, the independence, the freedom... you’re taking control. It all is the same, it’s an American value, it truly is. So yeah, not to sound too kitschy with it, but solar really is an American value.

And it is interesting too. And I know in your questions, you kind of asked about other misconceptions people have about solar. I think the political thing is huge as well, which is also what inspired our first Plugged In conversation as well, about just like solar being bipartisan because so many people think—even for me, they’re like, “Oh, you work for a green energy company, you must be just like, flaming liberal.” And honestly, I’m like, you would be surprised to learn that most of the people who I talk to in this industry, a lot of the people I interview, a lot of the people just have read in demand actually tend to lean right. Not everyone. And I’m not going to ever say my political affiliation.

But no matter who you put your vote behind, I truly believe that this is for everyone, it can benefit everyone. And yes, unfortunately right now there are a lot of people in power who aren’t really putting their support behind clean energy. And that is sad because it is something that really is for everyone and benefits everyone. But yeah, I think that’s like a huge... probably the biggest misconception right now is that people still happen to think like, “Oh, if you have solar panels, you must be a crazy environmentalist. You probably just only eat granola and hike in the mountains.” And it’s like, no, no, no, no, like so many people benefit from this and really on all sides to them.

Aaron Nichols: I mean, I do eat granola and hike in the mountains. I mean, this is my name. It must be like Aaron.

Kristina Zagame: And I do as well. But you know, it’s just... it can be for people who do that and also for people who do whatever.

Aaron Nichols: Well, that... I mean, one of the things that gives me hope as well is that America is a nation of people with outlaw spirit. And as soon as you start telling people they can’t have something or shouldn’t have something, Americans are not related to that either. And solar has outlaw roots. I mean, a lot of the early technology was used to power people who were growing illegal herbs in California, as I’m sure you know.

Kristina Zagame: Mm-hmm. I also wanted to do an episode on that, but it got vetoed. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, I guess someone’s producing a documentary that’s out next year. I’m interested to see it.

Well, I loved your “Solar is Dead” video as well. The intro was hilarious for you. I’d like the Halloween music and turned yourself black and white and made that face. And I love the quoted Mark Twain, who’s one of my favorite writers, Roughing It is one of my favorite books. What do you think people are misunderstanding about the solar industry and why do you think they are making that claim?

Kristina Zagame: Yeah, so I actually think we are partly to blame for the reason why people are [believing] this whole theory that solar is dead. And it’s because, you know, you and I chatted back in what was it, April or May now, about how we were worried about the ITC going away, the Solar Investment Tax Credit. And I think even in preparing this “Solar still makes sense and solar isn’t dead” video, I went back and watched my content and I said, well, I’m actually partly to blame for why people think that it has no future after this because the ITC was a really great benefit.

And we were trying to get as many people as possible to capitalize on this benefit before it went away. So in that, we had a lot of urgency messaging. And we were talking about... it’s not like we lied or we were inflated. It was a very real thing that we were trying to save or at least hope that the timeline wouldn’t be cut so short; a decade early seemed crazy. Unfortunately, we fought and we lost that battle.

But then I also think with that it did create this urgency messaging of like, “Okay, well now you have three months to get your panels up so that you can get this tax credit back.” And then people are like, “Okay, well, I didn’t do that or I missed that deadline or called my solar [installer] and they said there’s no way they can do it by the end of the year because now they’ve got a huge wait list.” So now, you know, no point. And there’s nowhere for the industry to go after this.

So I will apologize for my part. It’s not dead, but I do think we are in for a tough year. I think a lot of companies unfortunately have already been struggling. I’m sure a lot of them will continue to struggle as the year goes on, but I do think that it will be temporary. I think towards probably the end of the year and even into the next years, I see solar stabilizing and then eventually growing.

And I’ve talked to a lot of industry leaders who are seeing similar trends or projecting similar trends. I think a lot of that has to do with the improvement of financing options. I’ve written about clean energy and specifically solar since around 2021 in a previous role, and it was always something that we didn’t recommend any sort of third-party financing because in the past, there’ve been a lot of bad actors in that space. It’s been a little shady. It was just never the best deal for customers.

But I think as more people become interested in solar, but the financial barrier is just still what’s bottlenecking for people, I think a lot of new options have come out. You know, I was talking to Zoe Gaston from Wood Mackenzie and she was telling me about these new...

Aaron Nichols: She’s amazing. She’s so great. I’m very lucky.

Kristina Zagame: Really? That’s awesome. Yeah, no, she’s awesome. And she was telling me about, like, you know, those rent-to-own systems and so people can still get the benefit of owning their systems. But they rent them first so that they are able to have better financing. And, you know, I’ve talked to different people who are offering solar panel leases and PPAs that, you know, are decent human beings, are offering good options for homeowners. So, yeah, so I think that is going to help a lot with that divide and help keep solar alive for a little bit longer.

Aaron Nichols: Yeah, and that’s... I mean we sold out for projects last year back in July or August and then we had to start thinking about how we wanted to show up so we didn’t do any of the “year is about to end” marketing but we did spin up some better financing options and find some good deals behind the scenes and we’re now very excited for 2026.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah it’s very promising. I think... and I had to be very careful in saying that. And I did actually get, I think my first piece of backlash... no, maybe not my first, it would have been quite impressive. But when I did that video with... talking about how TPOs [Third Party Ownership] improved, everyone’s like, “TPOs terrible and you’ve always said it’s terrible.” And I’m like, “Look, I admit it in the video that I have always thought this and things are changing, so hopefully people come around to that and I would never recommend something that isn’t a good deal for the homeowner.” So I hope they trust that I did my research and I know that it’s a good deal.

Aaron Nichols: Well, you have chosen to be a public figure. So you think you’re inviting the backlash as a...

Kristina Zagame: Yeah. I used to be a TV news anchor. Oh, yeah. It’s funny to me how many people just like take the time to type these angry comments as if they’re like, “I will only be happy when all of the content I ever see is just confirming what I buy.”

Aaron Nichols: I know.

Kristina Zagame: But I was a little worried. I’m not going to lie. I was a little worried when I started changing my tune and doing my own research about TPO. I was like, oh my gosh, people think I’m a hypocrite because you can find articles I wrote back in 2021 saying, “This isn’t a good idea.” So yeah, I wanted to just call it out and say, hey, this didn’t used to be a good idea, but times are changing and now there are really good deals you can get with it.

Aaron Nichols: Totally. And you’re allowed to change, Kristina. You’re allowed to change.

Kristina Zagame: Thank you for permission.

Aaron Nichols: Well, Kristina, obviously, I could talk to you for hours and I’ve listened to you for hours over the last year. We have what’s now called a parasocial relationship where I’ve followed a bunch of your content. If you’ve listened to any episodes of This Week in Solar [or] seeing some of my highlights, you know that I end every episode with the same question.

And it has to do with... I was at my grandma’s 80th birthday party. I got to speak last June or July. And I realized when I was sitting there and later when I was writing a post that she was born into a world where clean energy didn’t exist. And that was just years ago. Like windmills were there to pump water. And solar PV wasn’t invented until 1954, and then it was super inefficient until like the 90s. Jimmy Carter didn’t put solar on the White House until ‘79 and that was solar thermal. So all the whole growth curve of renewable energy has happened within her lifetime, like from the invention to where we are now.

And so you are going to play us out and just make a wild prediction. And don’t worry, 80 years from now means we’ll both likely be dead unless medical science advances. But what do you think clean energy looks like 80 years from now?

Kristina Zagame: It’s such a good question. I don’t know if this is more of like a think or a hope for me. I really... I think that it is going to be more just easily integrated into infrastructure. And that’s really what I hope.

I, again, I live in Massachusetts, so fortunately everyone is very solar-friendly here. And just recently I was driving by this big random parking lot that’s in my hometown. And they recently just put up, you know, solar over the cars. So now when people park their cars there, not only are they saving themselves from having to get all the ice off of their windshield, but it’s just making energy. And I’m like, why is this just not what everything is everywhere, you know?

Why in people... you know I know you post all the time. People are always like, “Oh, it’s so ugly, big solar farms.” First of all, compared to what? And second of all, a big parking lot is...

Aaron Nichols: What are those natural gas flame thrower lamps? They put in fields in rural...

Kristina Zagame: Yeah, yeah, and you can like see the pollution. Yeah, but, you know, a big parking lot is empty, but it’s there and it serves the purpose and everyone can agree that the parking lot is important. So why not have the coverage of solar panels and then it’s a benefit to you as well because now your car is also being protected from the elements.

And so I think that is something that will just start to be... like I want solar and clean energy in general to be more of a before thought versus an afterthought. You know, instead of “I’m going to build my home and maybe in 15 years I’ll think about putting solar panels on it.” Why not just build the house with the solar roof? Why not just build the house with the solar panels?

I think we’re starting to see it here. Massachusetts actually, my dad is a builder, I wrote an article about him and went to go see one of his houses because they had to make the house solar ready. It was something that was asked by the city, to just have it so that when people move in, if they want to put panels on, everything is already hooked up, they just have to put the panels on.

And I think things like that, having the solar windows on office buildings... Like, wouldn’t that be so cool if every city just had solar windows? Like, you know, the building’s already there. It’s not going out of our way to make... I don’t know, it just, to me, it doesn’t need to be as difficult as everyone is making it seem.

And so my hope in 80 years is that it’s just integrated. You know, more EV charging stations and gas stations, more solar panels rather than big ugly empty parking lots. That’s my wish.

Aaron Nichols: There’s an episode airing before yours where I talk to someone who works for an environmental [org in] Pennsylvania, about how they’re trying to pass legislation right now to make warehouses solar ready. Warehouses are a great example of that, because you can’t argue that you can make a fulfillment warehouse uglier by putting solar [on it].

Kristina Zagame: Right.

Aaron Nichols: It’s a big cement building. It might as well throw panels on the roof, and you can’t even see them up there anyway.

Kristina Zagame: Exactly. Yeah.

Aaron Nichols: Well, Kristina, it’s been a pleasure having you. Um, where can you be found online if you do want to be found?

Kristina Zagame: Yes. Yeah. Well, first of all, I encourage everyone to subscribe to EnergySage on YouTube so that they can watch Plugged In. Um, feel free to comment all the good things. And I will take the trolls as well. It helps my engagement.

So I’m also on LinkedIn. I’m not quite sure... I think it’s just Kristina Zagame on LinkedIn. So that’s pretty much where I spend most of my social media these days is LinkedIn, which makes me sound quite sad and old, I realize that is. I just, I can’t do like all of the different ones in the [sliding], it’s too much for me. But yeah, and I’m always looking for interesting thought leaders and guests for Plugged In. You were a great one, we’ll have, definitely have to have you back for something this year. So people can also reach out that way and see if they’re a good fit for something.

Aaron Nichols: Well, thanks so much, and for everyone who’s listening: That’s been This Week in Solar. Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

What’s New:

After listening to last week’s episode, This Week In Solar listener Ryan Yosua spent the weekend creating a website that tracks the status of every plug-in solar bill in America and gives Americans a one-click resource to send supportive emails to their representatives.

You can find it here:

https://pluginsolarguide.com/

Why it Matters:

Until now, it’s been difficult to track down all of the relevant legislation on different state websites and find the right representative to contact. Ryan’s put everything in one easy-to-use place.

I used this website as a resource to write this week’s update. These are the six states closest to legalization:

* Virginia: Passed House 98-0 and Senate 30-8. It’s now on Governor Abigail Spanberger’s desk, and she’s expected to sign. Using clean energy to lower electricity bills for Virginians was a large part of Spanberger’s campaign platform in last year’s Gubernatorial elections.

* Vermont: Passed Senate 29-0, and is now in the House committee.

* Washington: Passed House 56-38; advancing in Senate.

* Colorado: Passed House 48-16 on March 5, 2026; moving to the Senate.

* New Hampshire: Has gone through the Senate and House with “Ought to Pass” recommendations.

* Massachusetts: Integrated into an omnibus energy affordability bill that’s currently moving through the Senate.

Trump Administration Has Kept White House Solar Panels

What’s New:

Earlier this week, Amy Harder from Axios wrote a piece pointing out that even though President Trump publicly speaks about the superiority of coal and oil and has called solar power “very, very expensive,” his administration has kept the Obama Administration’s solar panels up on the White House roof.

Why it matters:

Solar panels have been added and removed from the White House a few times.

President Jimmy Carter first put solar panels on the roof in 1979 to save energy. President Ronald Reagan took them down a few years later.

President George W. Bush added solar thermal back in his administration to heat the White House pool. President Barack Obama then added solar PV in 2013 to generate electricity.

President Obama’s panels are still on the White House. Anyone can see them on Google Maps.

Sources:

1 sun thing: Trump White House still has solar panels

Easy-to-use solar panels are coming, but utilities are trying to delay them

https://pluginsolarguide.com/

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit exactsolar.substack.com

In this episode of This Week in Solar, host Aaron Nichols sits down with Azuraye Wycoff, co-founder of Yellow Barn Farm, to explore the tension between solar energy and regenerative agriculture.

They discuss why utility-scale solar often faces resistance in rural communities and how long-term trust is really built.

You can connect with Azuraye on Instagram at @yellowbarn.farm or visit her website at yellowbarn.farm

Listen to this episode here, or on:

* YouTube

* Apple Podcasts

* Spotify

Expect to learn:

* The Power of “Social Soil”: Why building trust at the speed of trust is the only way to avoid NIMBYism and community pushback.

* Agrivoltaics and Integration: How combining solar with grazing and microclimates actually improves land fertility and water retention.

* Stacking Functions: Why solar developers should look beyond energy production to solve local needs like noise barriers, shade for livestock, and decentralized power.

Quote from the episode:

“Nature grows slowly and intentionally. And anything that is truly fast and exponential is usually some sort of virus and that’s not usually a good thing... You build trust at the speed of trust.” — Azuraye Wycoff

Transcript:

Aaron Nichols So, Azuraye, welcome and thank you for sitting down with me today. When I was getting ready for this, I was thinking through it and I think you’re one of the people that I respect most in the world. I was like, it’s my wife, my family, Azuraye is very high on the list. And I think it’s because you didn’t have to do any of this. But you’ve worked so hard to create a community and bring a community together. And so I wanted to start with that tone. And if you wouldn’t mind giving anyone who’s listening an overview of who you are and what Yellow Barn Farm is.

Azuraye Wycoff Thank you. It’s quite the honor just to be named that. Yeah, my name is Azuraye Wycoff and I actually grew up on this property where we are right now, Yellow Barn Farm. And it was originally called Autumn Hill, but well before that it was indigenous land. Truly its origination is the home of the Ute, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Shoshone tribes, many others that moved through these foothills for many, many generations and steered to the land in what we now call regenerative agriculture.

So where we are now, what we’re doing now as Yellow Barn Farm is really paying homage to what living in harmony with ecosystems really looks like, but also recognizing where we are in history with technology and energy and innovation that we can’t necessarily live the same way any longer. But what we can do is really live in a holistic integrated way that incorporates everything and really tries to build bridges between all of these different industries and worlds.

Aaron Nichols And would you explain what has been happening with the county?

Azuraye Wycoff So back in December, we got notified by some of our community that the county had plans to do an aerial drone spray of the herbicide rejuvra in the open space county land back behind Elk Green Farm and Yellow Barn Farm. But this had been a plan that had been solidified in their weed management plan back in 2024. But this was the first that we were really getting word that it was coming right up to the edge of our regenerative farms.

Aaron Nichols So to summarize, the county decided what was best for you without consulting you.

Azuraye Wycoff I think the county was doing its best to meet a lot of demands from a lot of different parties.

Aaron Nichols Okay. And you’ve managed to engage, I believe it was more than 1,200 people against this effort. Is that about right?

Azuraye Wycoff Definitely not alone. But yes, with DAR’s help, we sent out a mass campaign on social media, on our newsletters that just made it really easy for people to send an email directly to the county. We had helped with pre-drafting everything, writing the subject line, and addressing it to each of the individual county commissioners so people could just sign their name, add a little bit more information if they wanted to, and press send.

Aaron Nichols Okay. And who else was involved and who else would this affect if it went through?

Azuraye Wycoff A lot of people, a lot of people are involved, a lot of people it affects. A lot of communities in this whole front hill, the foothills region would be affected. Residents, a lot of different agricultural operations along this area. And everyone who got involved, there are so many people to name. It has been truly a community effort. And there are many other people that were pioneering this to combat the use of aerial drone spraying, the pesticides use on open land for years before we came along.

Tess McDonald is a really big name in this area. We’ve had a lot of support from some of the people here, John and Margo, Shana, and just the whole community has really rallied. I’m just really voicing what their concerns are, the way that something like this would affect a bunch of different people downstream, from the people, the animals, the aquatic life, the plants. It’s more than just isolating and targeting one issue, which is right now cheatgrass.

Aaron Nichols Right. And so let’s get a little deeper into the potential consequences if this goes forward. What could that potentially do?

Azuraye Wycoff I mean, man, we’re seeing this in so many arenas in our world right now. It’s just the use of a toxic chemical has so much of a domino effect. You can’t just target one thing in an ecosystem and not expect it to affect everything else in that ecosystem. So while they’re focusing on cheatgrass and trying to stop that seed bank from regrowing every year, it still is harming the seed bank of not just that plant, but everything else around it. It affects the runoff in the rivers downstream. It affects the aquatic life, the invertebrate, it affects any animals that are eating anything from those ecosystems. You can’t just have this one thing target that one issue and not expect to see the ripple effect.

Aaron Nichols And so I think the reason that I wanted to sit down with you is because I work for a solar company. I work in the solar industry. And even though I work in what’s called behind the meter where homes and businesses own their own solar and they’re the people like trying to put it on warehouses and on their home roofs, there’s also the other side of the solar industry which I haven’t had a lot of experience with which is utility scale where people are going in and developing large projects often in rural America. And a lot of solar companies struggle with community engagement and often run up against resistance.

Now, I’m interested, like, why do you think you were able to engage so many people against this effort to spray the herbicide?

Azuraye Wycoff I mean, I think we’ve all seen a lot of the effects of what toxic chemicals can do. I we’re seeing it with the glyphosate that’s sprayed on all of our food right now. We’re seeing it when you try to mass produce a result that you get a really big ripple effect and that’s gonna affect everything from our internal health, it’s gonna affect our children’s health, it’s going to be something that we have to deal with for generations to come and it’s not easy to solve. So I think when you’re looking at things like how do you work with communities rather than enact something without necessarily consulting what might work for a specific community, I think you’re gonna face pushback in any kind of industry.

Aaron Nichols So for any project developers who are listening to this, if they’re going into a community to develop a project, how can they connect with that community and connect with the leaders and work with the community in the right way?

Azuraye Wycoff Geez, I mean, for us, it’s been this idea of social soil. We have relationships with people. We have gotten to know everyone in this entire community over many years, my family being here for 25 some odd years. It’s going to be hard for someone who’s in an industry trying to build relationships because that, at least quickly, because that does move slowly. You build trust at the speed of trust. so I think if you are looking to come into community, it’s really getting to know what their needs are. If you’re coming into a rural community, what matters to them? If you’re coming in with laser focus to just get a project done, and you’ve got enough money behind you to just bulldoze anything in your way, of course you’re gonna hear a lot of pain and pushback because you’re not considering what the needs of that community truly are.

Aaron Nichols And what diverse perspectives do you think we often bulldoze? I know when we were talking before the interview, you were talking about how people work in different silos. They think energy is one silo, agriculture is another silo, these things don’t need to meet and mix. What holistic perspective are we missing that people need to consider?

Azuraye Wycoff I mean, how can you integrate everything? How can you build bridges? How can you do diplomacy, the boots on the ground work that is actually getting to know the people and know what their needs are and actually hopefully stack functions. If you’ve got a solar project coming in, what would it look like instead of being super laser focused or siloed in one industry and saying this is just solar, but saying, we’ve also got agriculture, we’ve got community needs, what could solar do to benefit all of those different industries?

The idea of covering an entire giant swath of empty land with just solar, you’re taking away a really valuable resource that could have been used for grazing cattle. And that grazing cattle is something that actually brings fertility back into the land, which creates coverage for the soil, which prevents things like cheatgrass. We’re dealing with this entire circular system that we’re looking at it only at one point in the entire circle. So when you do that, it’s like whack-a-mole. You’re forever going to be trying to snuff out other issues that arise that you didn’t foresee because you were so focused on one aspect.

Aaron Nichols Right. Yeah, I mean, I think we’re certainly on the same page. We spoke before, we recorded about, you know, like I personally don’t believe that it’s a great victory for the environment if we cover a huge amount of land in solar panels and then we just blast everything under it with herbicide and don’t use that land in other ways or just don’t let the land be what it is. It seems so silly to do that, that you would utilize such incredible resource like land and then cover it in herbicides because you’re dealing with trying to mitigate. I don’t know what cheatgrass It’s just like why not integrate these things I mean Jack solar garden what Byron’s doing with agrivoltaics is such a beautiful example of integration right that is an integrated system.

You know we were talking to... What’s the big energy? well yes, and we were talking by the way we’re supposed to call it something different now, but it’s NREL God... Well, we were talking to NREL and they gave us an entire evaluation of our property and what it would look like if we were to do solar. And so we looked at like the solar fencing. We looked at the solar on the roof on this big barn that we have. We looked at agrivoltaics. I mean, unfortunately for us, none of it made economical sense for a little while. But if you could work with someone who was looking for land and they were funding something like that and then there was a benefit to us because now we had solar agrivoltaics or panels that were blocking us from this very noisy highway. Then you’d have microclimates. So you’d have shade, you’d have more forage, you’d have spaces like in Colorado where water is so valuable. You would now have a way to create more of these little micro-climates that can retain water, that could help trees grow, that can be shade for cattle and other livestock that are grazing all of these alleyways.

That’s an integrated system. That is a way that you can truly incorporate everything that meets everyone’s needs. And then you don’t have so much pushback. You don’t have the NIMBYism because now they see that it’s benefiting multiple parties. Especially if you could even say, all the neighbors around Yellow Barn, we can actually support you with all of your home energy needs based on the energy that’s being produced off this farm. That’s a pretty good reason to want that.

So this is a diversion, but why do you think we’re so unimaginative as a species? What is it that holds us back from doing integrated things?

Azuraye Wycoff My perspective on that is that everything kind of works in a big circle. We started out this way. This is the indigenous principle—everything is integrated and we moved very, far away from that as we needed to grow and everyone diversified where you had one person who was focusing on food production. You had one person who was focusing on, I don’t know, making clothes. You had one person that was now focusing on industry and that just continued to branch outward and outward and now you you go to college and you specialize in one thing and you don’t think about anything else. If you’re focusing on medicine, maybe you’re only focusing on the brain and then even within the brain you’re focusing on the campus, I don’t know.

Whatever it is, you’re only so narrow-minded on this one topic where you forget that this whole thing is actually connected to a whole bunch of other parts. And it’s like when we eat meat, everyone’s looking at what the value of one cost of price per pound for ground beef. We completely forget that that came from a cow and that that cow actually had an entire purpose in an ecosystem. And that that purpose was actually to create fertility, turn soil, create more grass forage so that things like cheatgrass wouldn’t happen. We forget that that is all connected.

So why we went down that route? I think it was for our ability to grow. All of these things around us, from the lights and the ground and the stalls and the paint that’s on the stalls, all of that was a specialization. But I think we’re now starting to come full circle back to this integrated holistic viewpoint that’s allowing all of these diverse perspectives to now start to see each other. I think that’s really what Yellow Barn’s here to say is like everyone needs to be here. It’s not just the farmers. It’s not just the entrepreneurs. It’s all of those perspectives coming together so we can all learn from each other and see what we were missing.

Aaron Nichols Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you’ve done a beautiful job integrating into your community with things like the stock market.

Azuraye Wycoff Yeah, the stock market, it’s such a journey. The stock market’s really been our way to invite people to learn about land stewardship. You remember last year for our first pilot, and that whole thing I just talked about of what is the price per pound of beef. We don’t want to talk about beef like that. That completely dehumanizes the idea of what this animal’s life was really for.

Really what we’re talking about with this idea of the stock market. When I say stock market, it’s corn. Stock market. S-T-A-L-K for anyone listening. And the idea behind that was really a tongue-in-cheek play on the actual stock market, which is probably the most extractive system in the world at large. And if you could actually shift that narrative of saying, what would it look like if I invested my energy, my money into a regenerative holistic system that was actually focused on stewardship? And there’s many forms of stewardship right now. We focus primarily on land stewardship. And then what does that look like when we’re actually dealing with a holistic system? That we’re actually honoring the life of the animals that were tending the land, that they’re part of this ecosystem, and that at the end of their life and their service, they become something that then nourishes us. And that cycle continues.

Aaron Nichols So you’re obviously just a super connector in this community. And if someone is... is there a way that if someone is coming into a community to develop a project that they can find super connectors like you and, you know, have them work with the community members in the communities they built so that there’s more of a likelihood that not only will projects go forward but they’ll go forward in a more holistic way?

Azuraye Wycoff I mean, I think the most important thing again comes down to trust. You know, for the people who are connecting things, they’re connecting people that they know and that they trust and that they want to build more bridges. If someone came to me and they’re like, hey, I’m trying to do a giant solar project across the street from you, help me get this passed, I would be very, very hesitant to do that. And like, what would be the benefit? It needs to be reciprocity. That’s what all of this is about. That’s what builds trust.

And it usually starts very small. It starts with a very small gesture. It usually starts with a meal. It starts with getting to know someone. You know, don’t make big moves in community very, very rapidly. That’s how you get a ton of pushback. That’s how you get people digging their heels in. And you build a lot more enemies than you do friends. And that was a lesson that I had to learn when I first came here myself, of just shoving myself into the farmers community too quickly, you know? Saying, I’m here, let’s do this, let’s all collaborate. And they were like, yo, you are new here, you need to earn your seat at the table. And that was very humbling. And it’s really taught me a lot over the years of how you build those relationships and they’re very slow and intentional. And it’s the way that food grows. It’s the way that ecosystems grow. Nature grows slowly and intentionally. And anything that is truly fast and exponential is usually some sort of virus and that’s not usually a good thing.

Aaron Nichols Well, Azuraye, I end this show for everyone that I invite on with the same question. And it has to do with last year, I spoke at my grandma’s 80th birthday party. And when I was writing about that and reflecting about it afterwards, I realized that 80 years means my grandma was born into a world where what we call renewable energy did not exist. The only way we knew how to create electricity was to dig things up and then move them somewhere and then burn them and then send it out. And then we had to go find more things to dig up and burn. And we still do a lot of that, but we’re trying to be better.

But everything that has happened with the invention of solar and solar slowly becoming the cheapest power source in the world, all of that happened within my grandma’s 80-year lifespan. So I know that you’re working in your own way to bring a beautiful future about, but if you’re gonna moonshot to take us out here, what do you think energy looks like in 80 years? 80 years from now.

Azuraye Wycoff I mean, on the most extreme end of the spectrum, I think it looks like something like zero point energy. It looks like something that you can pretty much just pull out of the atmosphere from the atomic structure that exists around us. And it’s free. It’s accessible to everyone. It is completely doable and abundant. And it decreases all of the costs for all of us because so much of what we put energy into right now is creating energy.

I think solar is an incredible bridge to get there. I think with solar, what we’re really hoping for, and what I’ve kind of been hoping for, is that the efficiency of the solar panels really starts to increase, that the storage capacity in the batteries really starts to increase, and that those costs start to decrease as all of that technology starts to become more efficient. Because once all of that starts to become more efficient, then you’ll have a lot more micro nodes that can do their own energy. And once you have a decentralized system that can then really move energy as needed, man, you have a lot more ability to create, to grow, to do what is needed, rather than being completely reliant on a big, massive centralized system. So, that’s my hope.

Aaron Nichols Amazing. We share a similar vision. I mean, I want to bring about a future where energy belongs to the people, rather than having to be rented from huge regional monopolies. Well... Where do you like people to find you for anyone listening if you do like to be found online or in person or whatever?

Azuraye Wycoff Absolutely. Instagram is probably the easiest. That’s at yellowbarn.farm and our website is the same yellowbarn.farm. And really the best way is to come out to the farm. Come check out any of our events. We host wellness Wednesdays every single Wednesday. Puffin Sauna is open during that time and throughout the week. There are so many different ways to get involved. We have open mic nights and concerts and volunteer days in the garden once the spring starts. You can join the stock market if you want to support local food. That’s our CSA and herd share aggregator from a lot of the local farms. Or you can become a Yellow Barn social share member.

Aaron Nichols For anyone passing through Denver who’s listening, or if you’re local, or if you just come to a conference in Colorado, Yellow Barn is one of my favorite places in the world. And I know I’ve told you that a bajillion times.

Azuraye Wycoff Never get sick of hearing that.

Aaron Nichols So thank you so much for coming on today. And yeah, for everyone listening, that’s been This Week in Solar.

Azuraye Wycoff Thank you.

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