Matt and Sean continue their discussion of utopian versus scientific socialism in the second half. As we move from the religious communalism of the medieval period to the secular socialism of the 19th century, the limitations of utopian socialism become more clear... and yet the desire to, say, go back to the land... or occupy wall street continue. How do we break from the cycle and build a concrete utopia that can last?

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Jamie is joined by Daniel Denvir (@DanielDenvir), esteemed host of Jacobin's The Dig (aka socialist NPR) to talk about his book "All-American Nativism: How The Bipartisan War On Immigrants Explains Politics As We Know It." In an effort to explain how we got orange man, Denvir traces the history of anti-immigrant politics in the US, paying close attention to the bipartisan consensus that emerged in the 1970s and intensified with NAFTA, only fracturing when the GOP went fully mask off. What have been the material factors driving this? How does decriminalization of migration benefit the working class as a whole? And how should left-populist politicians like you-know-who talk about things like "open borders"? We realize it's like the third episode we've done on this topic, but it's important!

Outro music: Karen O w/ Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross - Immigrant Song and

BUY THE BOOK: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2858-all-american-nativism

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In part one of this extended episode on utopian socialism, Sean KB and Matt Christman examine the seeds of the anti-work/pro-leisure impulse from hobos to harlots to Hussites.

Where does the drive for an autonomous, collective communal existence come from? How has religion been a catalyst for envisioning utopia in heaven and on earth? In what ways did Christianity and capitalism give rise to the fractious movements that challenged the entire social order? And how did these revolts prefigure the rise of a more, shall we say, scientific socialism?

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Part two on labor phalanxes, back-to-the-land and Occupy Wall Street next week!