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Season 2 episode 1 of the Resist + Renew podcast (we're back!). In this one, we go over what we think conflict is, why we're focusing on it, and some ways to understand it.

'Conflict is both the spark, the fight, the loud things, the incidents which you notice above the water, but it's also the things that have been going on under the water'

Show notes, links

Our sister facilitation collective Navigate have a conflict facilitation booklet (from back when they were called Seeds For Change Oxford).

As we only briefly touched on the idea of "cancel culture", check out this longer ep from You're Wrong About getting into more depth.

See our "What is facilitation?" podcast episode page for more general facilitation resources.

And finally, a visual representation of different types of conflict (designed for a therapy context, but still relevant)

Transcript

ALI

This is Resist + Renew,

KATHERINE

the UK based podcast about social movements,

SAMI

what we're fighting for, why and how it all happens.

ALI

The hosts of the show are

KATHERINE

Me, Kat.

SAMI

Me, Sami,

ALI

and me, Ali.

SAMI

I'm recording this now, baby!

ALI

Shit, it's a podcast!

ALI

It's the toolbox again. And as we said, in our teaser, we are gonna do a theme for the whole of the toolbox. And that is conflict. So, in this episode, we are going to talk about framings to help understand conflict. We're going to share our aims of this toolbox for the season, why we're focusing on conflict, how we feel about it, and then we're going to share some frameworks that we find helpful to understanding conflict, and that will shape a lot of the other episodes which are coming up. And we'll, we'll come back and reference those.

But Sami, do you want to start us off by giving us a bit of a framing as to like, What even is conflict?

SAMI

Yeah, we’re, I thought this would be a good thing to start with. I just, I have a memory of a session. Like a training for trainers thing that I attended once, where there was a session on, like, managing conflict, conflict resolution; and someone maybe got 10 minutes in looking really confused. She was like a woman from the Balkans and was like, ‘Why are you talking about just like arguing with each other in like a conflict resolution session?’ Because she thought of it in like a statecraft kind of way. So that, to be clear, that's not what we mean, we're not talking about like wars.

And there's a, there's a description of conflict. And that comes from a person called adrienne maree brown, she’slike a writer, amongst many other things, and facilitator. And, and I think it's quite just like a helpful summary of what conflict is, which is disagreement, difference or argument between people. And, and so when we talk about conflict over the course of this toolbox, that's broadly what we're going to be referring to. So, like, more the like interpersonal, like kind of beef-within-a-group type stuff, less the like, society to war, nation state to nation state, kind of deal.

And so probably makes sense for us to start by talking about, like, why we thought this was a good idea for a podcast. Who would like to start?

KATHERINE

I can start. And so I am interested in conflict, mainly because I'm quite scared of it. And I find it difficult, I avoid it quite a lot. And I guess recently have been noticing that I also name things that are difficult in groups, which means maybe I'm more likely to invite conflict, even if once it arrives, I don't want to deal with it. Um, so I'm kind of interested to understand a bit more about like, how do I deal with it once I've named it? But I guess also sensing into, like, my own conflict avoidance. It's something I see quite a lot in groups that we work with as facilitators: people not wanting to talk about conflict, not wanting to go there. And/or when conflict arrives, like, finding that really, really hard. And so yeah, really just curious to explore, like, what actually is conflict? And people keep telling me it's transformational, but I don't know how! So this conflict toolbox series is that exploration for me and to learn from Ali and Sami, and also the people that were we're in conversation with, about how how conflict can be different and how we can work through it in ways that can be transformational. And, yeah, that's me.

ALI

Feels like a mini documentary, the way you’ve framed it.

KATHERINE

Oh, yeah? Well.

ALI

[laughs] Yeah.

KATHERINE

Do you wanna go, Ali? You’re second.

ALI

I can chat. So, I can also be a bit scared of conflict too. I've been in a lot of conflicts, just as a

virtue of being in different groups, and being in quite high pressure situations. But as well as, yeah, finding it difficult, I do tend to engage in it quite a lot. I take up certain roles in groups, of like mediating conflicts; I tend to be the one who's like, ‘There's something going on here people shall we maybe talk about it?’

Yeah, and I guess I have, I guess Katherine just said, like, she's heard people say that it can be transformative. I've seen it, in some ways and it can be like quite small moments or shifts that I feel in my relationships or it can be in slightly bigger things in the groups. So I guess I do believe it can be transformative and, yeah, based on experience a little bit.

But I've also felt like totally stuck and like nothing's ever going to change. So I guess I want more of the former, and less of the latter! And I think it's the latter, like, from a like a wider perspective as like a facilitator or someone who cares about social movements and social justice, I think conflict is one of the biggest reasons groups fail. And if we want to do the things we want to do, it's a good reason for us to get good at conflict and like, engage in it, whatever that means, which we will look at later. But, Sami, do you want to say for you?

SAMI

Yeah, sure, I guess. Um, maybe of all of us, if this were a spectrum line (call back to last season!) then I would maybe be the person that would be the furthest ‘Not Scared By Conflict’ end?

ALI

Our Residential Beef Expert.

[All laugh]

SAMI

Well, I guess, but that's, but that's the distinction, right? Like, I think I feel less, like, I feel more able to be in conflict necessarily. Maybe like, I feel less scared by it. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm better at it, right? I'm just in a maybe just like, more more happy to go into it, I guess.

Because I think like, as I think is probably true for a lot of people, like come from a family background and like tradition, where like, it's not the like the ‘English, normative, conflict averse family style, - that is like the norm that people say is the ‘English norm’, right.

But the conflict wasn't, like useful, helpful, transformative. Like, there was just loads of it. So I guess I can feel more okay, like being in that frying pan, or whatever. But I think what, what I always feel like is that I'd like more helpful, like models of like, how to move through conflict.

Um, and I guess there's also a part of it, that's just like, I like things that I find hard. And I find like, conflict stuff hard. Like, it's difficult, like it's emotionally activating. All this kind of stuff, like, and so I think part of me is, like, drawn to that. And I think a lot of people say that they're, like, ‘not good at conflict’. And so like, often a lot of people shy away from it. And in situations like that, I'll often be like, ‘Ooh! I can give it a go!’

And so yeah, I think the main talent I bring, like with a lot of my, like baking and approach to many other things in my life is like, the main thing they bring is a willingness to give it a go, rather than necessarily like an underlying strong talent.

ALI

And willing to get messy.

[Sami laughs]

Really willing to get messy, willing to, as Ali and Katherine will know, just sit in meetings and just go, ‘BEEF, BEEF, BEEF!’

So, what's next? What's on the list?

KATHERINE

I think it's like getting a bit clearer about what conflict is. So I think that adrienne maree brown quote is really, really helpful. But I guess like, I think there's something around what people maybe immediately think of as conflict. As like the spark or the heat, or a fight happening, or some, like, loud conflict, or, like, complete stony silence that tells you the room is like, not in a in a great place.

But we want to, like, introduce this idea of, like, the iceberg to help us with understanding a bit more about what conflict is; and that those those, like, moments where we might feel the most intense conflict could be like the tip of the iceberg. Could be the, um, yeah, the loud argument or that feeling of silence or whatever it might be. But actually, like, there's often a load of stuff going on beneath the surface. And that might have been going on for a long time. Before or after those moments of spark... mixing my metaphors between spark and ice, but I think you probably can follow along.

And, and there's something about like, I think what I'm learning is that in the transformative conflict, it's not just about like, “resolving” (in air quotes) the the moment of the spark or the bit above the water. It's like really tending to all of that other stuff that's kind of going on beneath the surface. And thinking about, like, what is the cause of this conflict? What, what are the symptoms but but why are we in this conflict.

And that might mean, for example, like you're in a meeting, and there's just not enough time to like really talk through everybody's needs, and so a conflict might emerge. People might get angry with each other. But potentially beneath the surface, there's like a misalignment of values,

about, like,