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Season 2 episode 3 of the Resist + Renew podcast, where we talk about some unhelpful frames* that come up when we think about conflict.

'Conflict may not be the choice of how you’d choose to improve relationships, but given the conflict will happen... play the hand you’re dealt'

'We need to be in it with each other, which makes the conflict worth it'

* We give examples of different “frames” in this episode, but don’t define the term “frame” (for shame!). To plug that gap:

A frame is a lens you look through to see the world. When looking at conflict through the frame of essentialism, you will see people who do bad things as inherently bad people. Frames will always highlight some things (‘they did something I didn’t like, so they must be a bad person’) and hide others (e.g. questioning what could have led them to act the way they did).

No frame is an accurate summary of the world. To adapt a phrase we’ve alluded to before, “all frames are wrong but some are useful”. A few other ways of thinking about it:

“mental structures that shape the way we see the world” (George Lakoff)

“The frame around a painting or photo can be thought of as a boundary between what has been left in and what has been left out. Each of the elements placed inside the frame is significant, and makes a difference to the meaning of the piece.” (Common Cause)

Show notes, links

A very condensed summary of what we talked about:

How we think and feel about conflict is shaped by our histories, our society, our traditions

People often don’t consciously know what these ‘norms’ around conflict are, though they can affect how we act, how we approach conflict -- and as they sometimes make us act out of line with our values

And the zine that was mentioned was "You can't blow up a social relationship".

Perennial resources:

our sister facilitation collective Navigate have a conflict facilitation booklet (from back when they were called Seeds For Change Oxford).

See our "What is facilitation?" podcast episode page for more general facilitation resources.

Transcript

ALI

This is Resist + Renew,

KATHERINE

the UK based podcast about social movements,

SAMI

what we're fighting for, why and how it all happens.

ALI

The hosts of the show are

KATHERINE

Me, Kat.

SAMI

Me, Sami,

ALI

and me, Ali.

SAMI

I'm recording this now, baby!

ALI

Shit, it's a podcast!

KATHERINE

Welcome to the second episode of the Resist+Renew Season Two toolbox.

Last time we talked about conflict in general, we talked about how we three feel about it: as facilitators, as people in groups, as people. We talked a bit about what we're going to cover in the toolbox this season. And we also had some introduction to what we mean by conflict, and and some of the ideas that we're, sort of, using throughout this toolkit to shape our thinking.

In this episode, we're gonna do a deeper dive here on ideas that people often have about conflict, and why they might not be so great. Sami, do you wanna tell us more about that?

SAMI

Sure, yeah. So I guess, maybe we can start by just, like, putting forward some like, axioms or assumptions, I guess, about, like, conflict and our thoughts around it, just to make sure we're all starting from the same page.

So one is that like, and we touched on this a lot in the last chat, like how we think and feel about conflict is shaped by our histories, the society we live in, cultures, internal norms, assumptions, all these kinds of things. Like, there's a hodgepodge of different different things that go into that mix of how we think about conflicts and how we interact with conflict. And what that means in practice, is that the ways in which we interact with conflict will be like shaped by a lot of that stuff, but, because a lot of these things are like societal norms, or maybe like unspoken norms and groups, they're not always norms that we're aware of affecting our behaviour.

So I guess that's partly why we want to spend some time on it today, like, to draw out and make explicit, bring into the spotlight some of these norms, so that people can listen and be like, Oh, yeah, I definitely, I feel that thing. I feel those totalizing feelings, or whatever, I guess we'll see. Let's talk about what the things are.

And like, and so those things will... And I guess the third, maybe like assumption-y type thing, axiom-y type thing is that like, these ideas, and these norms can often be the causes of why how people think they should act when they're in conflict, and how people actually do act when they're in conflict, don't match up. And so what we want to do now is spend some time thinking of like, some of those assumptions, some of those norms, some of those frames, and like what they can mean, in practice.

ALI

I guess I can go. I feel feel very, feels like a very philosophical thought experiment-menty thing: axiom! Such a big word.

SAMI

[Laughs] It’s because I'm a mathematician, I always talk like, I'm a mathematician, I try and hide it normally. It's always that or -

ALI

What are our base assumptions here? Yeah, I can go first.

So, one idea that I am definitely guilty of bringing into conflict. Or one thing, an idea I have around conflict, which shows up is conflating the idea that people doing something I don't like, something that's bad, makes them a bad person. And that is a bit of a sneaky shift. I feel like it's like, definitely, I definitely, like don't see it, and then I catch it later, where like, oh, wait, I'm deeply deeply annoyed with this person. And it's gone way beyond like, what they actually did.

But I'm like, just seeing them as like, grrrrr, I'm so annoyed with you. And yeah, I guess, what that does. What's the impact of that kind of assumption? And thought is: it doesn't give me much like, empathy for like, some of the understanding of like, why they might have done some things and it doesn't give me much, like, motivation to, like, engage with them as a person. Because I'm like, ‘Well, they're just bad. So: write them off’-kind of thing. And I, it when I catch myself doing that, I have to, like, do some, like, unpacking of that in my own head and like being like, okay, is that true? No, it's not. What else could have been going on here? Do, maybe go back to that, like, conflict iceberg model we brought back in season one and be like, ‘Okay, I can see those positions are really separate and, like, why's that pissed me off so much? What might have been driving them?’ And like, just do some of that in my own head and like, I can feel, like, a shift in my own self being like, ‘Okay, I feel like I’ve got a bit more space now, now that I'm moving away from them being an inherently bad person. Now I might have a bit of space to talk to them.’ But if I don't do that unpacking, then I'm not very, like, open to dialogue in that sense. So, yeah.

KATHERINE

Can I jump in with a question? I'm just a bit curious about something you said. Like how, when you said, you catch yourself, I'm really interested in that, because it feels like once you've caught yourself, and you're then doing that work of like, dialling yourself back from the narratives around them being a bad person and trying to build in that empathy. That's like, really great. But I'm wondering like, what is the the work of catching yourself? Like, how do you notice that that's what you're doing? Or how do you help yourself shift? Because I find when I'm in that place, I get so stuck in the ‘rrrrrrr,’ that it's really difficult. I don't want to be moved out of it, I kind of am holding it just for holding it. So yeah, I'm wondering if you can share just a bit about how you do that shift.

ALI

So: one of the ways that I noticed this recently was thinking about like, nervous system reactions, and like, the defaults between like, fight, flight, freeze, dissociate, and all that kind of stuff. And like how those are tied with responses to conflict. And like, my initial one is like a Freezie, one of like, ‘Oh, God,’ rabbit in the headlights-kind of thing. ‘This is a bit scary.’

And then I can feel myself, if I go past that (I don't always go past that). Then I go to, like, a Fight. And I'm like, ‘Fuck that guy!’ And it's usually, like, a bodily sensation. And like, ‘Wait, that's, that's different from what it was before.’ And like noticing the internal state around things can, that can be a catching moment, as well. But it doesn't always happen that quickly. And sometimes, I can hold those thoughts for... a long time! [Laughs]

SAMI

So one of the one of the lessons to take away from this conversation: Just because we're giving a series of talks on conflict, doesn't mean we're all saints. [Laughs] Which I think we said at the start, but we should probably just keep saying again and again, in conversations. I think that was really useful Ali. Did you have anything else to say on that?

ALI

I don’t think so.

SAMI

Because I've got a different one that I want to throw in. Okay, cool.

So, another idea that I think can play out a lot is this frame that conflict is a zero sum thing. So meaning, like, conflict is a thing, if there's two people that are, like, in conflict, or whatever, one of them will win, and one of them will lose, and that will be the outcome of the conflict, that will be the conclusion.

And I think there's a few things that that, like, foregrounds, and the few things that like hi- like a few things, that highlights in a few things that hides. I think there's something in that idea of like, it being zero sum i.e. ‘There is one winner and one loser.’ I think often means is that that's a thing that can lead to like, Well, I think this other person has, like, won this conflict in the sense of like,