We're going to interact with people who are not ideal clients. But salespeople have trouble when they're afraid to disqualify a prospect. To say, okay, I'm no longer going to follow up with this person.

I've always viewed it a little like the game musical chairs that you played as a kid? You have a certain number of people going around, and a certain number of chairs. When the music stops, everybody scrambles to get a chair. If you don't have a chair, you're out, right?

I view prospecting that way in some respects. Where you have to, at some point, start to prune the list. You have to start to get rid of the people who are not likely to become clients. If you're afraid to do that, you will continue to leave the same number of people and chairs.

Jay: Yes.

David: And if none of them are buying, it's not going to work well.

David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing letting ideal clients know you're alive. Welcome back, Jay.

Jay: Hey, so good to be here, David. And I think this is, again, such an interesting topic. I find that I'm so caught up in the daily. I'm taking calls and the squeaky wheel gets the grease. And some of those ideal clients kind of go by the wayside sometimes.

David: Yeah. A lot of times we don't even know who they are until we first try to identify them. So, in a sense, the topic itself goes kind of deep. You can't know they're an ideal client until you know they're alive. Then you have to let them know that you're alive. Then you have to determine if they're an ideal client.

Jay: Yeah.

David: So there are actually a few steps in this.

Jay: Yeah, and I think that's such an important thing to know. You need to have a system, like you always have, of identifying those ideal clients. It's hard for me to really figure out if they're ideal up front. But I'll tell you one thing I can tell is when they're not ideal.

I was on the phone call with somebody yesterday. He's going to become a client. But I regret the relationship I know I'm going to have with him, because he's already so demanding. And I'm like, this guy's not ideal, but he's a customer. And so, how can I not sell him the product?

David: Yeah, that's a great question.

And it's harder for some than others, I think. You get to a certain point in your business or a certain point in your career or whatever and you weigh it. Well, I guess we all do that. We have to weigh it. How much of a pain is this person going to be? And what's my tolerance for pain essentially, right?

Jay: Yeah. Yeah.

David: But you're exactly right. You don't really know that necessarily upfront. So a lot of times when we're working with our clients, what we'll do is start with the people they think are likely to be their ideal clients. And whether that means in a certain geographic area or in a particular industry or in a certain sized company, if they're selling B2B, You can make some initial judgments based on who has been a good client for you in the past, and then say, okay, how can I get more people like that?

And then when you're introducing yourself to those people who meet those similar criteria, as you're having those conversations, you can then start to make those determinations about whether or not they are an ideal client, or if they just sort of fall in that general ecosphere of people who could potentially be ideal clients, but maybe aren't.

Jay: Yeah, exactly. And not just finding new ideal clients, turning your existing ideal clients into more business. Because if they were ideal the first time, if you can keep that to be a generating ongoing revenue source and relationship... Man, I'd rather do that every day than deal with the other type of customer.

David: Yeah, no question. And when you get to the topic we started out with, which is letting ideal clients know you're alive, that does go for your ideal clients as well. The ones that have been buying From you for a long time, the ones that you already know are ideal. Sometimes it's just about remaining in touch with them, staying in front of them, remaining top of mind with the people that you already know are your ideal clients. And that's something that not everyone does. Sometimes the allure of future business is so strong that it pulls us away from the people that we know buy from us, trying to bring new people through the door. So there's definitely a balance that comes with all that.

Jay: Yeah, absolutely. So what would you say? I kind of have an idea in my mind. How would you describe in your business the ideal client?

David: Well, of course, it's different for everyone, but ideal clients, I think for most people, it's going to be somebody that you don't mind interacting with.

That's a good criteria to start with. I think willing to communicate is key. Because if they're not going to have conversations with you, they're not going to be a great client. It's just going to be very difficult to get information out of them and to be able to get them what they want when they want it, if they're not willing to communicate with you.

So likable, communicative, and ability to buy. Do they have the ability to spend money on the products they want? Some people are really nice to interact with. They're very pleasant, but they just don't have the financial wherewithal. They don't have enough of a desire to be able to invest the money to be able to become a really good client.

I mean, those are just some of the criteria, but like I said, it's different for everyone. And there are a lot of people who don't even take into consideration the first one that I mentioned. Are they pleasant to deal with? And... I know in the early stages of my business and maybe even into the mid stages of various businesses that I've been involved in that wasn't always the criteria.

It's like, can they make a purchase? And sometimes people who are not all that pleasant to deal with can make purchases. But then what does that do to your quality of life? And what does that do to your customer service people and the other people in your organization who have to interact with people like that?

So, definitely a balancing act. But when I think of ideal clients, and one of the reasons that I even use that word is to say we all get to decide what that means. So whether it's personality based, whether it's dollars based, whether it's proximity, availability, all those things go into it. But it is going to be different for everyone.

Jay: Well, and again, like we talked about at the beginning, just having that thought process, because as so often before I talk to you, I think, I've never sat down and kind of drawn out what my ideal client is. I can tell you when my phone rings and I see the caller ID and I'm like, Oh, please, I don't want to talk to that person.

That's probably a good indicator that that's not an ideal client. But on the other hand, I've had people that will talk to me all day. I know who their kids are, you know, I know everything about them, but they never purchase, but they love to talk to me. So on both ends of that spectrum, I don't have an ideal client.

David: Yeah, but you probably are forming an idea even now because just based on what you said, it's like, Oh yeah, there's that person that talks a lot and doesn't buy. There's that person that's rude and obnoxious and does buy. Neither of them are ideal clients. So where's the middle ground? There are very likely clients that you have.

I think a good way to do this, this is something I've recommended to my clients a lot, is to print out a list of your clients, people who have spent money with you, in dollar order, from the most down to the least. Take a look at the top people on your list and ask yourself, how many of those meet the criteria of, you know, I like interacting with them, they're a good client, they're willing to communicate.

Chances are a lot of them are going to be that way. And some of them might not be, but very often the ones who cause you to flinch when you see their name come across the caller ID, very often they're not the ones that are at the top. They're down lower and they're taking up a lot of time. They're not generating a lot of revenue.

And at that point you can start making some of these determinations about what does constitute an ideal client from your standpoint?

Jay: Yeah, I love that. Being very deliberate. One of the other things you might find is one of those clients that you really like working with, you find out they're not really spending a lot of money, but they're taking a lot of your time because they love to chat and you have a great relationship.

So you may, in your mind, think this is an ideal client. When you actually put in the numbers and take a look, you may realize... It's not really working out the way I thought it was.

David: Yeah, you may also realize that somebody that you think of as an ideal client is actually a former client. Like they might not have purchased from you in years, but you like them so much that you tend to want to think of them as a client. And...

Jay: Yeah.

David: That's an important distinction to make. Because if you just like talking to them, that's great. Don't stop talking to them. But also don't make the mistake of thinking they're a client if they haven't purchased from you in a really long time.

Jay: Yeah, someday, somewhere in the future, they're going to purchase again and they're just not planning on it. They've moved on or they needed your service one time and you built a relationship with them and that's it. That's all you're ever going to have is a relationship, but not a financial one.

David: Yeah. And as salespeople, we're all prone to this. There are people we like, people we enjoy interacting with. It's like, Oh, well, at least I'll be able to have a nice conversation here.

...

When we talk about the idea of effective sales follow-up, what does that mean? It’s effective in terms of making sure that we’re on the same page with the person, making sure that our conversations are moving forward, making sure that their questions are being answered, and ultimately getting to a decision.

Are we going forward with this? Are we not? And if so, when is that going to happen?

David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing effective sales follow-up. How much is too much? Welcome back, Jay.

Jay: Thank you, David. Such an important question. And again, something that I struggle with. You know, I have a customer management system, and it shows me I talked to them three days ago.

And it comes up on my tasks and it says it's time to talk to them. And I find every time I go through this emotional thing. Are they going to think I'm bugging them too soon? And a lot of times I'll say, let's give them three more days or let's give them two more days because I guess I'm not ready to talk to them or I'm afraid I'll be a bother.

David: Yes, and you're not alone. Because it's pretty much impossible to know exactly how often to call any one given prospect, let alone all of them. It's not like there's one rule where you say you must call every other day or you must call every three days or every week or whatever your thing is. I mean, there are rules that have been put in place for salespeople to do that, and maybe it's not a terrible thing, but a system like that pretty much guarantees that you're going to be wrong as often as you're right.

And so, if you understand that going in, one of the things that I think it's important to recognize is that people are going to sort of telegraph how annoying you're being, or how often they want to be in touch, want to have you in touch. And if you ask them more directly, they'll be a lot more inclined to give you an honest answer.

If we make up our minds that we're going to contact this person every so many days, and that person doesn't want to hear from us that often, then obviously we're setting ourselves up for failure.

So a lot of times, if we can find out from the prospect roughly how often they would like for us to be in touch with them, and it's easier to do with established clients, where you know them, they know you. With prospects, it's not as easy.

But in the early stages with a prospect, we need to be in touch more frequently in order to get to decisions about qualification levels. Are they actually qualified to buy from us? Do they have the need, the desire, the money, the budget, the willingness to spend, the interest?

Do they have any of those things? And if we can't determine that in the first conversation, we need to have a second conversation. But of course, their level of interest in that first conversation will also help us to determine, well, how much time should I give this person?

And when I think about how much is too much, one of the things that I've seen a lot, and I saw it myself, in my own behaviors in the earlier stages of my sales career, and then in a lot of other people along the way, is that since we can't know how much is too much, many of us in sales tend to err on the side of too little contact rather than too much.

And we talked about being a pest in a previous podcast. I don't want to be a pest. Therefore, I'm not going to pick up the phone and call. And the problem with that is that if we're not in touch with them, when they're ready to move forward, then someone else is going to get that business.

So we have to find this balance of, yes, I don't want to be a pest, but also I'm not going to abandon this person so that somebody else can get in there and get that business while I've been working to cultivate it over a long period of time.

Jay: Yeah, and it could be that depending on what type of product, there's a time limit as well. So if they don't get their order in within three weeks, you're not going to make their deadline. So that could affect how often that you're going to talk to them.

One of the things that I've found in my business is to just flat out, ask them to schedule a follow-up appointment. You know, we've just had a discussion. I'm going to send you the information. Would you mind if I reach out to you on Friday at this time? And I find that that works very well.

I've got that relationship going. You know, we're friends now after 20 minutes. And they're more than happy to set a follow-up appointment. If you're in a situation where you can do that, that's ideal.

Because once I lose that scheduled appointment, now we're playing phone tag or text tag or something else. So that's always my first attempt anyway.

David: Yeah, and I think that's a really great point. And it's critical, particularly these days, because reaching somebody when they're not expecting you is very difficult.

The other thing that it does is when you schedule a follow-up call on a certain day at a certain time, If they're going to ghost you, you'll find out sooner rather than later. Right?

Because if you leave it open ended, "Oh, I'll give you a call in a couple of days," or "give me a call after you've had a chance to review the information." you don't know what to expect.

Because if you say, "give me a call after you've had a chance to review the information," it could take them 10 minutes. It could take them a month. You just don't know. So by doing exactly what you just suggested, suggesting or scheduling a time for your next contact is really the smart move.

I think at this particular time in history to not do that is really setting yourself up for failure.

Jay: Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, at first I'm like, you know, I'm feeling pushy again, you know, but I do that after we've had this great conversation, they're saying they want to use me, there is no better time that I'm going to find to schedule a follow-up appointment.

If I let them off the line and then later on text them and say, "hey, can we set up another time?" I've probably already missed the opportunity. So there are moments to strike that, if you don't do it, you may never get again.

David: Right. And we can ask them, "when would be a good time to get back in touch?" If they need to review that, when would be a good time to get in touch?

And then if they say, well, you know, why don't you give me a week and it's Thursday, you can say, Oh, okay. Well, should I give you a call same time on Thursday?

Jay: Yeah.

David: And they can say yes or no. They can schedule something else, but at least you'll have an idea. And that way it also sounds like their idea because you ask them, when would be a good time to get back in touch?

They tell you a timeframe and then you just pin them down to a time that's based on the timeframe that they gave you. So now it's not you being pushy and trying to schedule a call. It's you listening to what they said and delivering what they asked for.

Jay: Yeah, I like that. Again, anytime you can avoid being a salesperson and get them to initiate is so important.

I've also come to realize that it's not something that I should fear. It's actually something that makes me look more professional and more interested in them. Right? And say, let's set up a time. You're interested right now. When can we talk so that we can get this process started?

It doesn't make me look pushy. It makes me look professional. And it took me a while to come to that realization.

David: And professional is the key word right there. Because if you think about the way that actual professionals behave... A doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, whatever -- anybody that the world considers to be a professional -- they're not just going to say, "oh yeah, well give me a call later," or whatever.

They're going to schedule an appointment, if an appointment is warranted. They're going to determine the timeframe. You're going to get agreement, you're going to agree on the date and the time, and you're going to follow up. Because that's what professionals do.

Leaving it open-ended is very often comfortable for salespeople who are afraid to ask for the commitment.

But then, for the little bit of anxiety that could be created by asking for a date and time to follow up, they're creating a world of anxiety because they have no idea what the next step is, when the next step is, or if that person is going to be available to take it with them.

Jay: Yeah, and then the other thing I find is that because people can schedule on my calendar without me there, I may fill up, and now when I should be following up with that client, I'm taking new calls, and as we've kind of talked about before, suddenly that person could be getting pushed to the background. And they're the one that I could make the sale with instead of these new clients.

So I found that I have to be very purposeful about scheduling that follow-up. Even if they won't set a time with me, I set a time so that it's blocked out on my calendar. Otherwise it'll disappear.

David: Yeah. You know, something else I find in sales, in particular, is that the term follow up, it's a term that we use freely, we speak of it very often. But it's not an ideal term to use with prospects and clients.

Jay: Agreed.

David: Because it is seen as such a salesy kind of term. And so when, even if that's what we're doing, if we know that we're calling to follow up with someone in a week and we schedule a time, when we get on the phone with them, it's probably best not to say, "I'm calling to follow up."

Jay: Yeah.

David: It's "okay, hey, we scheduled a time, looking forward to continuing the conversation." Something other than those words. And it's a small thing maybe, but I find that it's a small thing that really helps to set the stage for what the conversation is ultimately going to be.

...

If you want to create desire in sales, it has to be about them. Their wants, their needs. The things that they're looking to accomplish from the relationship, because that's where all their desire comes from.

David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will discuss creating desire with your communication in sales. Welcome back, Jay.

Jay: Hey, David. It's great to be here, as always. read this title and I've been thinking about it, but I'd love to hear your perspective up front. What do you mean creating desire with your communication?

David: Well, I think if we're In the business of conveying value and providing products and ultimately selling something to someone else, the only way that happens is if there is enough desire created in the other person to make them want to move forward. Without the desire to move forward, it's never going to happen.

It's kind of a funny word, particularly in sales. We tend not to use words like desire a whole lot. We tend to think in terms of qualification and segmentation, and we keep it all very clinical. But without the component of wanting it, if the prospect or client does not want what we're selling, then absolutely nothing is going to happen.

And the only way that desire is either created or channeled is generally with our communication. Now, if we're offering something that they already want, then the desire is already built in. But if not, if they don't see all the benefits, if they don't see what it can do for them, then they might not be feeling it enough yet to pull the trigger.

And at that point, it becomes our job to say, all right what do I need to do in terms of my communication with this person to help either create some of that desire or ideally uncover the desire that's already buried inside there?

Jay: Mmm. That's great. I think about my own sales process. One of the things we do in our company is we offer a free consultation, and that's my job. I give the consultation.

And there's nothing I hate more than when somebody says free consultation, and what they really meant was free sales call, right? And so the minute you get them on the phone, they're pitching you their product, and I don't.

I listen, I ask questions, I tell them about their circumstances, I tell them what steps they can take to make their life better. And I always start the call saying, "just so you know, this is not a sales call. My goal is to give you the information that you need."

It never fails. I've never had a call in my life, and I've done probably a thousand of these. At the end of the call, they say, "well, how much do you charge for these services? And I'd like to move forward with you."

I never, never tried to sell them on anything. And to me, if you can do it, you can't do it with every situation. But to me, that's just ideal. They're asking me how much I charge. I've created that desire in them without one word that sounds like a sales pitch.

David: Right. Because if you go immediately into sales mode, if you start out with that, if you lead with a sales pitch, it's not going to create desire in anyone. Because a lot of the desire that we're going to be able to uncover in our prospects is going to come from the answers we get to the questions that we ask them.

And so, you know, the whole diagnostic approach to sales, just like the diagnostic approach in medicine. First, you have to examine the patient to find out where it hurts. Examine, and then diagnose, and then and only then can you prescribe, right?

So you have to examine the patient, find out where it hurts, find out what their needs are, find out if they need what we have to offer. If they don't have a need for what we have to offer, then yeah, there's no need for a sales pitch, right?

And once we've done that examination, then we make the diagnosis. Based on what you've told me, it sounds like you're looking to accomplish this, and this, and this. Is that correct? And if it is, and then if we have something that can help them with that, then the prescription would be, this is how we can help you if that's something that's of interest to you.

But you're exactly right. That desire is not going to be created in the pitch portion of the presentation.

Jay: Yeah, that's right. And in fact, I hear from a lot of our potential customers. They're like, "I talked to three of your competitors and all they wanted to do was sell me on product and they confused me even more."

In fact, I think their tactic is if I can confuse you enough, you're going to feel like you have to use me 'cause there's no way you could possibly understand what we're talking about.

Of course, I'm in the tax business, so it's pretty easy to, you know, convey to people that you're ignorant, you need us, whereas we spend the first 20 minutes educating them and then they're like, "wow, this is somebody who knows what they're doing. I want to use you. How do I use you?"

And then it just comes down to price. Can they afford us? And can I convey to them why paying our price is absolutely the benefit that they need.

David: Yeah. And what you just described there, from competitors who lead off with the hard sell approach, that is so common in so many industries. And it is absolutely deadly to sales.

Jay: Yes.

David: And unfortunately, a lot of the sales tactics that people are trained on are things like overcoming objections, which is not a bad thing, right?

But, if you're on the defensive for the whole call, it's like if you ever watched a boxing match, you don't want to be on the defensive through the whole match. You can't do that, right? And if you're in a situation where that's what's happening, where you're just trying to get in there and make your point and have them understand it and have them buy it, then you're at a disadvantage right from the beginning.

But when you're able to create a situation where people are free to ask you questions, disagree with something that you're saying, question what you're saying, and find out if there is a good fit there, that's what's ultimately going to create the desire.

Because until they feel like, and this goes back to the whole know, like, and trust thing, until they feel like they know enough about what it is that you're talking about, and they like you enough to pay attention to what you have to say, and they trust you enough to say, okay, maybe I'll give this a shot, none of it's going to happen.

There's not going to be any desire created, if you're interacting with somebody that you don't know too well and don't like a whole lot and don't trust very much.

Jay: Yeah, and in fact, it's a funny thing. People tell me, "well, thanks for the call. I want to check in with some of your competitors first."

And I'm like, " yeah, go for it." Because I know they're coming back to me. 'cause I know how all of them act. And. They always do. They always come back to us because we didn't give them the hardcore sales pitch.

We actually educated them, which made them feel like we were really experts in the field. So I think sometimes taking the whole feeling of the sales process out of the equation, if you can do it, it's not always possible depending on your product. But if you can find that formula, wow, can it be more successful.

David: Absolutely. And when you're looking to communicate with someone in a way that is designed to ideally create desire in the mind of the person, in the heart of the person that you're talking to, assuming they have a need for the products and services you offer, a good way to do that is to make sure that the conversation is primarily about them.

Jay: Yes.

David: If you're talking about yourself the whole time, and you're talking about me, me, me, and I, I, I, and we, we, we...

Jay: Yes.

David: That is not the kind of conversation that's going to lead to that desired result. If you want to create desire in them, it has to be about them. Their wants, their needs. The things that they're looking to accomplish from the relationship, because that's where all their desire comes from.

Jay: Yeah. and I, think that if you do spend that time talking about them, they will come around to the point where they realize they want to work with you. And they'll start asking you about your pricing and your services. And then there's oftentimes now where they say, "well, what is your pricing?" And I'll say, well, I just try and make this a, consultation call.

Let me send you my list of pricing and I'll follow back with you in a day or two. And even that takes them back that I don't jump right in to the sales process. I give them time and space. And I realize in some sales cycles, you want to close them when you have them on the phone because you may never get them back on the phone and you may have to reestablish that relationship every time.

So you really have to decide what your own sales cycle is going to be. But in my situation, I've found that's the most successful way to never feel like a salesman. I always feel like a friend, a consultant, somebody who cares for them and just wants to provide the best product for them.

David: Yeah, and that's what's going to lead to those levels of desire to work with you when they are actually able to feel that.

Jay: Yeah.

David: You know, when we talk about a word like desire, I mean, a lot of times in sales, we think in terms of interest. Are they interested in what we have to offer? And obviously, interest has to come first. I'm not going to desire something until I first express interest in it.

And this also leads back to the idea of disqualifying people as well. If you're having a conversation with someone, you're asking a lot of questions and they really have no interest in what you're talking about. They appear to have no desire for it at all. They have no desire for the results that it's going to ge

Last week's discussion about The Zero Accountability Salesperson seemed to resonate with a lot of people. And the biggest questions I got were related to how to fix this. How can I help myself and/or my salespeople to be more conscious of the actions we need to take, and to take those actions on a consistent basis?

Hi and welcome back. In our last episode, we touched on a lot of important points related to what I would call The Zero Accountability Salesperson Culture:

Most businesses don’t deliberately create a zero accountability culture. It just happens when systems and processes are missing.

When salespeople say things like, "It’s going great, I'm having a lot of good conversations. I’ve got a lot of people in the pipeline," that tells you nothing. Without metrics, it’s just wasted words.

Accountability is not punishment. It’s about providing clarity on what’s working, what’s not, and how to fix it.

If you haven't thoroughly reviewed that episode, I encourage you to go back and check it out now.

But today, I'd like to give you a quick, bullet-pointed list on the things you can do right now to start creating a culture of accountability for yourself and your sales team.

To get started:

✅ Start with one key metric. Don’t overwhelm your team. Begin by tracking a single activity, like the number of new targets acquired or prospects qualified in or out each week. In our Total Market Domination program, we have an Activity/Results Audit that our clients use to track the ten most important activities that lead to sales. But even starting out small will begin to create a sense of accountability for yourself and your people.

✅ Define what counts. Be clear about what “initiating contact” means in your organization. Making a phone call and not getting an answer doesn’t count if no contact is initiated. Real contact, conversations, and interactions count. The rest is meaningless.

✅ Add one metric at a time. As you start getting consistent application on the first key metric, introduce the next one that flows from there. What are steps you and your salespeople need to take to move a new prospect from total stranger to paying client? Those are the activities that need to be taken and tracked in your business.

✅ Create a cadence of accountability. Establish a weekly rhythm where salespeople report on the metrics you require. Make it consistent, like a drumbeat. Miss just one or two and the whole thing will be forgotten in no time.

✅ Build accountability into your systems. Use your CRM or even a simple shared Google Doc to capture and share activity. The easier it is to track, the less resistance you’ll face.

✅ Focus on metrics that matter. Don’t waste time with busywork stats that don’t impact sales outcomes. There are a lot of those, so be sure to measure only the activities that truly drive sales results.

✅ Link activity to outcomes. Help salespeople understand how improving even one single metric (like initiating new contacts) drives the next step (like getting those prospects qualified in our out as quickly as possible.) When you do this correctly, accountability feels more like a reward than a punishment.

✅ Frame accountability as support. Make sure your team understands this isn’t about a lack of trust. It's about you helping them to systematically identify and eliminate the bottlenecks that keep them from selling up to their potential.

✅ Stay consistent. Don’t let reporting slide over time. The moment accountability becomes optional, the culture of zero accountability will come roaring back to life.

✅ Adapt for individuals. High performers might require less oversight, but everyone benefits from clarity. Make sure everyone in your organization knows that you're there to help them thrive. This means customizing expectations of your team, without ever lowering standards.

The best salespeople want to succeed, and they'll be open to any of your efforts to help in that regard, as long as they don't come across as controlling or manipulative.

If you're serious about creating a culture of accountability inside your organization, download a copy of our free Shift Report today at TopSecrets.com/shift. It will explain how you can connect the dots between the work you're doing and the results you're getting from that work. So if you ever feel like you're actions aren't producing the desired results or you're not yet earning up to your potential, download a copy now at topsecrets.com/shift.

Ready to Start Helping Yourself and the Zero Accountability Salesperson?

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The zero accountability salesperson is at a big disadvantage. Selling is all about being able to produce. And the only way you're able to produce is if whoever is doing the selling has some level of accountability, whether it's to themselves or to a sales manager, or to your spouse, whoever it is, right?

If you get home from work, and you didn't sell anything as a salesperson, you might get in more trouble at home than you got in at work.

So accountability is always big.

David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist and I discuss the zero accountability sales person.

Welcome back, Kevin.

Kevin: Good to see you. Zero accountability salesperson. What does that look like in a sales team?

David: Salesperson? Salespeople? It's not pretty, man. It is not pretty. And it's nothing that anyone deliberately sets out to do. In most sales organizations, the problem is that the company itself does not have the systems and processes in place to allow their salespeople to become more accountable to anything.

I mean, a lot of times salespeople are held accountable for sales. Are you hitting your numbers? Are you generating the sales that you need to generate? But if they're not tracking other things, then they really have no idea what it is that's going to get them to the numbers that they really need to reach.

Kevin: So how does that lack of accountability affect the overall sales performance of the team?

David: Well, it's not good because it's just erratic. It's all over the place. You'll have some salespeople who are very good and very consistent because that's the way they're wired, and you'll have other salespeople who are all over the place.

And the reason I thought this was a good topic to have, is that I was having a conversation with someone earlier today, someone who's considering joining our Total Market Domination program, and she was talking about the fact that she's got a number of salespeople in her organization, and she doesn't feel like they're all sort of on the same page.

They're not doing the same things. And when I started talking to her and asking her about what sort of accountability was in place, she was sad to admit that there wasn't a whole lot of it.

And what happens when you're in this situation, as a business owner or as a sales manager, if you find that you're having conversations with your salespeople and you're saying to them, so what's going on?

How's everything going? And they say, oh yeah, it's going great. Having a lot of great conversations. Got a bunch of people on the fence or people I'm working, got a lot of leads I'm working and everything like that.

That tells you nothing, right? It tells you nothing.

It's feel good talk, but it's wasted words. Because until you are able to provide any sort of metrics, any sort of numbers, any sort of accountability that turns those comments into something real, you just don't have anything that you can even help them with.

Kevin: I think a lot of times salespeople have their methods. They love their methods. That's their tried and true, understandably so. Is it hard to get sales teams on the same page when it comes to accountability when people want to kind of do it their own way?

David: Well, it certainly can be, and if you've got a sales person who is a high performer, that person may just want to do it their own way, and they might not be open to a whole lot of conversation or a whole lot of interpretation

Kevin: And you might not worry about it.

David: Exactly. And that's very true. And I'm not saying that you should have different standards for different people in the organization. I'm just talking about what actually happens in the world.

And so when you've got salespeople who are very good at what they do, and they don't need to provide you with some of the additional data that would allow you to help them figure out where things might be going wrong, then that's a decision that you have to make.

But I think it's very important to have those procedures in place for the people who are not the superstars, who might not be generating everything they need to be generating.

We hear the term culture a lot when it comes to businesses, sports teams, organizations, whatever. You know, zero accountability, it seems like it could be kind of a culture in a lot of companies.

Culture is not easy to change. It's not an easy thing to shift. How can a business owner or a sales manager try to shift the culture without alienating their teams?

It's a great question. The first thing I'll say about culture is that there is no organization that defines itself as having a zero accountability sales team.

They don't talk in terms of we have zero accountability salespeople. That's not something that's in their brochures. It's not something that's discussed internally. It's a deliberately provocative title, because for a lot of business owners, they look at that and they're like, oh man, my salespeople are pretty unaccountable.

Kevin: That's my situation. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

David: And that's the reason I thought it would be important for us to have this discussion. Because, it happens. And it doesn't happen because people set out to do it.

No business owner decides in advance, I want to create a culture of non accountability. Nobody does that.

You want to have a culture where people are enthused about going to work each day. They know that the people that they're working with have their backs, that they're going to do whatever they can to help.

And so when I talk about accountability, I'm not talking about it from the standpoint of punishment or making salespeople do things that they don't necessarily want to do.

It's just a matter of saying, okay, do I have, in this organization, enough procedures and processes in place that conscientious salespeople will be able to sort of latch onto a few key metrics and say, okay, if I improve this, I'm very likely to improve the next thing.

We talked about bottlenecks in a previous podcast, and this is a great example of that. When I'm able to identify those early bottlenecks, then I can move on to the next one.

So for most salespeople, the idea of being accountable is not terrible, as long as people aren't asking for stupid, unrelated, ridiculous information, right? And some businesses go that way, too.

They're asking them for all kinds of things that may not make any difference, and that's a waste. So you have to find the balance of being able to ask your people about the things you need to know about, so that they can document this stuff in a way that it's useful to you and useful to them, because that's what will provide a level of accountability that makes sense.

It makes sense to the business owner, it makes sense to the salesperson, and people are actually happy to do it.

Kevin: What are some practical ways that someone could introduce accountability, in a small way to help kind of build it without just like changing everything right off the bat?

David: Well, you could do it one step at a time. I mean, you could ask for one metric from your salespeople initially. I'd like to know how many new contacts you made this week. How many brand new prospects did you initiate contact with this week? And you would have to define what that means, initiating contact.

Does it mean I made a hundred calls and I didn't reach anybody? Because that's kind of zero, right? But if I initiated a hundred contacts and I actually interacted with 10 people (or whatever the number is,) that's a solid metric.

It's not hard to track, and it's an important one to track. Because if you are not getting that information as a sales manager or as a business owner, that is the beginning of zero accountability.

You're just assuming or hoping or waiting for them to bring in the sales each day or each week or each month. And if you just start earlier on in the process and say, all right, what about this? What about this metric? What about that metric? Then you can follow from there.

Because if you start out with how many new people did you introduce yourself to, or how many new people did you interact with this week? Then you could follow it from there.

It's like, okay, well I initiated contact with 10 new people. I went to a networking function. I met 10 new people there. It's like, okay. Then a next metric could be, how many of those were you able to get qualified in or out?

How many of them are actually qualified to do business with us? That would be a second metric that you could track. And then you can start to track the stuff down the line and eventually you've got sort of a cadence of accountability. I think I've read that in a book by, uh, Stephen Covey, I believe.

But it makes a whole lot of sense. It's sort of a drumbeat, right? I'm keeping a cadence where I want to know what's going on, sort of here and here and here and here.

Each step of the way, you're giving me some clue as to what's going on out there, as opposed to, yeah, things are going well. I'm talking to a lot of people. I got some people in the pipe, right?

Kevin: To have really good accountability, it's going to take consistency Because it's probably a very easy thing to let slide or let slip over time.

Your salespeople are probably not going to be accountable without some level of oversight. How can business owners, sales managers reinforce the idea of accountability without coming across as annoying or nitpicking or micromanaging?

David: Well, ideally you build it into the process upfront. Now, of course, if you're just doing this now, you're going to have to build it in later. But if you simply have slots in your CRM for where this needs to be entered, how many new prospects this week? How many people did you initiate contact with? How many were qualified in or out?

It can be maybe four or five different metrics....

There's always going to be a bottleneck in sales. There's always going to be something that is not working as smoothly or as ideally as it could or should. And our job is to constantly identify, what is it now? What is it today? Now that I got this other thing fixed, what's the new thing that's slowing us down?

David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist and I discuss your biggest bottleneck to sales. Welcome back Kevin.

Kevin: Great to see you, David. And this is definitely one that I think anybody can relate to no matter what business you're in, but you're talking about your biggest bottleneck to sales.

Let's not bury the lead. What is it?

David: In every business there is generally, more than one bottleneck, but there's one big one that is going to keep you from hitting the next bottleneck, or the one after that, or the one after that.

And if you don't tackle that first one correctly and get rid of it, then you never get to down the line.

It's like an assembly line. If you think about a factory that's manufacturing something and there's an assembly line, if there's a problem at the first station in the assembly line, everything stops, right?

Because you can't move to step two until you've done step one. And so for most of us, when it comes to sales, there is a bottleneck.

And it might not be at the very beginning. It might be towards the middle, or it might even be near the end.

But until you identify what your biggest bottleneck is, you cannot apply the appropriate resources necessary --the time, the energy, and the focus --to blast that thing out of there, so that you can then move forward with everything you need to do.

Kevin: All right, so you couldn't just give me the one thing. That's fine. Can you give me some of the more common bottlenecks that you see when it comes to sales?

David: Well, sure. When you're in a selling situation, what are the biggest bottlenecks you run into? Well, I'm having trouble reaching the person that I need to reach, right?

They're not responding to me. Or some people, toward the end of the sales process, they get right up until the point of closing and then they choke.

So that's an example of a bottleneck where if you don't get that one nailed, you can go all the way through a sales process, then get to that point and then not be able to close the sale and everything is kind of wasted.

So looking at the steps along the way, what are you going to look at?

You're going to look at the people that you're interacting with, the conversations that you're having with them, the timeframe that it takes you to get them from point to point. Because for a lot of people, that is a big one.

Not being able to set a pace, set a tempo that allows you to be able to get to that sale sooner rather than later, that could be a big bottleneck for people.

A lot of times we have an idea of how we would like the sales process to go. But if the client has a different idea, we're going to have to follow what they're going to be willing to go along with.

So in those situations, if we say, alright, I'm going to try to do everything I can here to advance the process to get them to the next step.

Maybe it's just a matter of, in the promotional products industry, will they send me the art?

They may have agreed to the sale, they may have agreed to the quantities, they may have agreed to the colors and the Pantone color matches and the tight registration.

They've agreed to all that. And you can't get them to send the art. That's really frustrating. And it can be a bottleneck that holds up everything.

And these bottlenecks that I'm referring to are the things that hold up everything that comes past it.

So by simply taking some time to identify what are the biggest bottlenecks, because if you find in your business that it's, "I can't seem to get art from the client," then you need to make sure you put a process in place that is designed to handle that.

Ideally, it's something that you're going to be able to delegate to an administrative assistant, or perhaps delegate to technology to some extent, where it sends them reminder messages that they need this or that your administrative assistant can follow up and make the phone call, whatever it takes.

Putting those procedures in place is the only thing that's going to blow out those bottlenecks.

And for most of us, there's something that's driving us crazy. There's one thing that is frustrating us. For some it might be, okay, I'm having a problem getting my orders delivered. You may have a problem with the suppliers you're dealing with.

If that's your biggest bottleneck, you got to fix that one, because each of these is a business killer.

Kevin: So do you think of your sales process from start through to the delivered product, if you will, till the end in that entire cycle you really have to kind of analyze how that is going?

Is there a strategy that will help them identify those bottlenecks?

David: Yeah, and you have to start way before the order gets placed. You have to start very early in the process, even in terms of when you're thinking about who you're going to be talking to. If you decide that you're going to be going to a networking function or something like that, you want to try to get leads from that.

You examine that part of the process. How did that go? When I went there, were there people who were interested in what I had to offer, or was everyone there trying to sell instead of trying to buy, right?

So you can look at those kind of things. What's the quality and the caliber of the prospects that I'm meeting at this particular event, or with this particular approach?

If I'm taking out an ad and an industry publication to try to get people to express interest in what I have to offer, what's the result I get? What's the response that I got?

Every time we do anything to bring a new customer through the door, we're putting out energy, we're putting out effort, we're doing something to make that happen. Whether it's a social media post, whether it's a direct mailing, whether it's an ad, whatever it is, we're doing something. And that something needs to create a result.

Sometimes the result that it creates is nothing. And so what you need to do then is to say, okay, was it just a one time thing? Or if I test it again, is it still producing nothing?

Can I change it? Can I tweak it so that I can blow this bottleneck out? Because whatever it is, whatever the issue is, whatever the thing is that's slowing you down, you have to first identify it and then you have to systematically blow it out.

Kevin: Mm-hmm. How do these things form, you know, like I, I know every situation's different, but does it come down to complacency? Is it not looking at numbers, analytics? What do you find that is the biggest reason why these bottlenecks happen?

David: Well, it could be that, but I would say nine times out of ten it's just life.

It's interacting with other people who don't always do exactly what you want them to do when you ask them to do it, right? So that is likely to be a thing.

But bottlenecks happen in every business, in every industry. I mean, when I gave the example of an assembly line, that's a very obvious one.

And most of us, in business and in sales, we don't think in those terms because we generally don't operate in those terms.

We're not putting hubcaps on a car when it's ready to roll off the line. We're not thinking in terms of all the other steps that had to happen along the way. And as salespeople, we are very often involved in all of those steps, in each of those steps.

And if we've never taken the time to learn the best way to attach the windshield and attach the windshield wipers and whatever it's I'm doing to build a car. I've never built a car, but whatever those things are, if I haven't taken the time to do those things right, then it's going to slow down my process, it's going to mess things up, and it's going to become a bottleneck.

So when it comes to sails, it's the same kind of thing. There are very specific things that need to happen in terms of the people we're interacting with and how we're communicating with those people, and the frequency with which we're doing that, and the efficiency with which we're doing that so that we're not wasting time, their time as well as ours.

I mean, I think that's an important aspect of this, is none of us like wasting our own time, but wow, you start wasting a prospect's time or a client's time, they are not going to sit still for that.

Kevin: As far as removing that bottleneck, as far as blowing it out, clearing it out, what is the best way to do that? Because there might not always be an easy answer, right?

David: Exactly. Yeah. Well, once you've identified it, that's a big step. Sure. because a lot of times we don't even see it. We're just so busy doing all the things that we need to do on a day-to-day basis that we're not even paying attention to all the minutia of the things that we're doing along the way.

So once you've identified it, that is a big, important part of the process. Then it's really just a matter of looking at what is happening in there? And is that happening consistently? Am I doing that the same way with each person that I interact with?

And if I'm doing it the same way with each person that I interact with and I'm getting not so good results, that means I need to change that process.

If I'm doing it the same way and I'm getting results that are all over the place, then I have to look at, all right, well, what kind of people am I bringing into this process? Because if it works for some and it doesn't work for others, I know my process is the same. I know that what I'm communicating is the same. Is it then related to the people or is it related to the way that I'm saying it?

...

It's one of those nuances that when you're transforming the leverage points in your business, the prequalification follow up is different than the post qualification follow up, but they are both very important leverage points.

David: Hi. Welcome back in today's episode, cohost. Kevin Rosenquist and I discuss transforming the leverage points in your business. Welcome back, Kevin.

Kevin: Hey, David. Great to see you. I'm excited to find out what you mean by this. So can you just start by sort of talking about what you mean when you refer to leverage points in a business?

David: Yeah. I think particularly for salespeople and business owners, there are certain specific leverage points that make a huge difference when you're interacting with clients, and a lot of it starts with who you're going after. You know, just the targeting aspect of it.

And a lot of people will take anyone who can fog a mirror, you know, they'll take anybody who stumbles in the door. And if you want to be a little more proactive about things, and if you want to really leverage that aspect of it, just the targeting part of it, that's one of those small hinges that swings big doors.

And so. When we look at leverage points, that's a really good solid first one. Because you could spend time going after a certain group of people in a particular niche or a particular market location and get to a lot of the wrong people and waste an enormous amount of time just by doing that.

So one of the things that we do with our clients is we look at, okay, what are the biggest leverage points that we can go after? Tackle those upfront so that our clients are able to get more done in less time and earn more money while they're doing it.

Kevin: Okay. So I'm guessing there's multiple leverage points that you might refer to.

How could a business owner identify where they need help? What leverage points are being underutilized or need to be transformed?

David: A lot of it, you can figure it out based on what problems you're having. If you are interacting with a lot of poor quality prospects or clients, that's a pretty good indication that it has to do with your targeting.

If you're getting to the right people --in other words, if you're getting to people who have the ability to spend a lot of money with you --and they're not converting, then you have to look at it and say, okay, well what am I doing wrong?

What am I saying to these people that is getting them not to buy? And a lot of times, salespeople go into sales situations and they're just winging it. They're just saying the things that they normally say, or they're saying things that they think are likely to work.

And if it works for you consistently, then that's great. You've probably got something that works. But if you find that you're interacting with a lot of the right people, but you're not closing those sales or you're not able to move the sales process forward fast enough.

Like if it takes a lot longer to close your clients than it should, that's an indication that it's probably not related to the prospects at that point. It's probably related to what you're saying to them or the ways that you're saying it to them.

Kevin: Can you share an example of a leverage point that when improved can have a dramatic effect on sales?

David: Yeah. Well, it's really the things that we're talking about and things that we've talked about in previous podcasts. If you think in terms of the MVPs that we've discussed in the past, the MVPs of marketing and sales, what's the message that I'm communicating?

If you've got an okay marketing message and you're communicating it to a high value prospect, you could really be wasting an opportunity.

If you are reaching those high quality prospects using a combination of marketing vehicles that they're not happy with. If you just keep calling them on the phone and they don't want to take phone calls, then again, you're shooting yourself in the foot. It's a big leverage point when you're able to identify how they are willing to interact with you, and then gear your approach accordingly.

And then of course, as we discussed first, the people. The people that you're going after. Those three things are the first three that always leap to mind, because it's probably the thing that we talk about most, but the reason we talk about it most is because there are so many important ways that you can mess things up if you don't do it right.

And of course there are more.

Kevin: Mm-hmm. And so is it fair to say that leverage points need to be, it's not something you can do quickly to change 'em. You kind of have to work on 'em over time to figure out where it works. Like to your point about how do people like to be contacted. You need to kind of do a little bit of trial and error AB testing to figure out where you can alter or improve your leverage points.

David: Exactly, but you can do it quickly if you recognize that there are these very specific leverage points that you want to focus on. And so if you are concerned that you might have a marketing message, you can test out a couple of various approaches and see how they work.

Of course. When you've got good clients, if you're able to interact with them and just ask them questions directly, a lot of them will tell you what they like and what they don't like.

Very often, if you're interacting with a client for the first time or a prospect for the first time, you can find out how do they like to interact, how do they prefer to communicate? And it's very direct, but it also saves both of you a lot of time, so that you're not communicating with them in a way that they don't like.

Kevin: Mm-hmm. Okay. Are these leverage points pretty universal across industries, or do they vary from industry to industry?

David: Well, I think there's nuance within different industries, but in addition to the MVPs, things like how do you qualify your prospects in or out as quickly as possible? Do you have a qualification procedure in place where you could ask them a couple of simple direct questions to determine if they are a good qualified prospect for you?

If the answer is yes, then you follow up with them. If the answer is no, then you don't waste that time with a prospect who is not a good fit for you.

Kevin: Okay. And we've talked in previous episodes about shifting mindset. It's always about, for a lot of times for business owners, they might be stuck in their ways. They might not have time, they might not be good at delegating, whatever that is.

Is it another mindset shift here and what kind of recommendations or advice might you give to someone to help them get to a better mindset?

David: Yeah, the mindset component is pretty big with everything, because if you don't buy into it, you're not going to take the necessary actions.

But I think this one is relatively easy in the sense that if you just recognize that there are very specific things that you can focus on to change the results you're getting for the better, then it becomes a lot easier to get yourself in the mindset of, okay, I just need to do this. Right? It's not like I have to motivate myself to do something I don't want to do.

When you're able to identify these leverage points and fix them so that they perform better for you, it's exciting. You want to do it so you don't have to sort of overcome any sort of hesitation or anything like that.

Kevin: Yeah. Especially if you seeing results when you see, when you kind of, or even just when you see some areas that you could really improve on.

Like if you're like, man. I keep doing this, but this is going to be a better way. It kind of can get you a little jazzed up, get you a little excited.

David: Yeah. And if you look at things like follow up. Follow up is such a small amount of words for such a big concept, but the way that you follow up is an incredible leverage point for your business.

And when you do it strategically, instead of just haphazardly, the results just change like that. And those are the types of things that I'm referring to when I talk about these leverage points.

I'm talking about things where you can make a very small change and create a very big result in your business.

Kevin: Any other ones that we haven't talked about yet that you feel that businesses often overlook?

David: There are a number of them, but it's not like it's unlimited. A lot of things are sort of subcategories of other things, the problems that you have with whatever, your targeting, which is something we did talk about.

There are specific ways to get to that so that it's fixed. And so once you've got that stuff dialed in, you don't really have that problem anymore.

Same thing with the qualification procedure that I mentioned. When you've got that sort of thing in place, you can use it each time. Now you can continue to tweak it and adapt it and test it and see what's working well and what's working not as well.

And you can make tweaks to it. But when you've got these things in place and you know that they're working, you know that you've got them dialed in, then you don't have to really focus on a lot of other things.

Because once again, most sales experiences are communications between a couple of people. If you and I are talking, we're having a sales experience, there's a limited finite number of things that need to happen.

A lot of it is related to conversation and the way those conversations happen, but also making sure that I know what I'm doing enough to be able to respect your time, get you qualified in or out as quickly as possible, focus on those things so that I'm not wasting your time or mine.

Kevin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We have so many ways to communicate now.,We've talked about this on other podcasts, it is crazy how many different places you can communicate with someone. Does that make it even harder for people to identify th

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David: Hi, and welcome back to today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist and I discuss the lead quality matrix. Welcome back, Kevin.

Kevin: Good to be here. Excited to chat about this, because I don't know what you're talking about.

Kevin: So what is this lead quality matrix and why is it important?

David: Well, a lot of times in my work with clients, we're talking about leads. "I need more leads" and "I got to get more leads," everybody's always talking about leads, which is very important. But as we're getting these leads in the door, sometimes it's a good idea to say, "okay, well who do I actually want to bring in?"

Now, in our work with clients, we are very big on qualification. We want to make sure that the leads that we bring in are being qualified as quickly as possible. Because if they're not qualified, we don't really want to spend a whole lot of time interacting with them.

So when we're bringing new leads through the door, obviously we're going to try to disqualify the not so great ones in the early stages.

But also when we're putting stuff out into the market, whether it's a social media post or an email or we're meeting somebody for the first time at a networking function, whatever it is, we want to try to get an idea of the quality of the lead as early in the process as possible.

When I talk about the lead quality matrix, if you just sort of imagine a graph. And going across the bottom is Willingness to Communicate. Are they willing to communicate? And so the farther you go to the right, the more willing they are to communicate with you and then going up and down is money to spend. Do they have money to spend?

If they have a lot of money to spend, that goes up. If they don't, it's at the bottom. So if you think of that as being the matrix. You start off in the lower left hand corner, you've got people who have no money to spend who are not communicative. That's kind of easy, right?

Kevin: Yeah. Those aren't ideal.

David: Right. We know what we're doing with those people. We're going to jettison them as soon as humanly possible. In the upper right, we have those who are highly communicative and who have money to spend. So what do we call those people? Like ideal clients, I would say, right, high quality leads. This is the sweet spot. This is where I want to be. This is what I'm looking for, right?

Kevin: Right.

David: So that's kind of obvious. What's less obvious, and in some ways more interesting is the other corners, right? If you look at some of the other corners and you say, okay here are a bunch of people who are extremely communicative. They'll communicate all day, they'll talk to you till they're blue in the face, but they have no money to spend. Huge time wasters.

Many people will go to networking functions and talk to people like this for hours on end, weeks at a time, because they never take the time to just do the simple math on it and say, okay, highly communicative, unable to spend. So that's an interesting group of people.

Then we have the other extreme, which is people who have a lot of money to spend, but they're just not talking to you. So if they have a lot of money to spend, if it's a big client, big company, very self-important, but they won't return your phone calls, and they won't talk to you... You decide how long you want to deal with that sort of thing.

Kevin: Yeah.

David: And those are just the four most extreme points. But it really is obvious when you look at it like that.

Kevin: And we've all chased the white whale or whatever that has all the money and you're wanting it so bad to get them as a client. Because you know it'll be lucrative. But I don't know. Those people tend to be very difficult to deal with too if you finally do land them.

David: Well, yeah, particularly if they're not communicative. I mean, we could do another grid, that has good people, bad people, right? It's a similar kind of thing. Yeah. Because there will be people who are communicative, who have money to spend, who are just going to be rude and obnoxious, and then you can disqualify them afterwards.

But at least you know that you had the ability to communicate with them. You either did or you didn't. They had the money to spend, but they're not going to spend it with you. And now I can move on.

Kevin: How about the middle area? I feel like we've talked about the corners. You can kind of get a good feel for those corners. There's a lot more gray area when you get towards the middle. How do you evaluate those people?

David: Yeah, well. "Meh," that's how I evaluate them, right? I got some money to spend. I'll talk to you when I feel like it, and I won't when I won't.

Again, it depends on your tolerance for pain. How involved do you want to be with people who will communicate with you half the time and who don't have a whole lot of money to spend?

Is that, in your mind, an ideal client? Now, I'm not saying you won't take people like this, because, at some point we all do. We take people who seem to need our help. They seem to have money to spend, they seem to be willing to spend it. So we take the order. And then we decide from there, okay, do I want to take a second order? Do I want to continue to work with this person?

Kevin: Right.

David: And this kind of graph, this is not the be all, end all of decision making. But when you recognize that these components will really impact your day-to-day interactions with prospects and clients, it does make it a little simpler.

Because when you're not thinking in these terms, you can have endless conversations with people and not even realize where they fall on either of those two layers.

Kevin: A hundred percent. I feel like I've been there many times, where I've had lots of conversations and lots of demos, and I don't really know where they stand on either of those.

David: Yes.

Kevin: Or at least on the, what can they spend sort of matrix.

David: Yeah. There's also a lot of people who don't get communication back from someone that they've interacted with. And they're frustrated about it. They'll say, "yeah, I can't get this guy to call me back."

And I'm like, well, that's because he's not communicative, right? With you. He's not. And so is that likely to change? Will it ever change? It could. Maybe he's having a really busy week and he can't call you back this week.

But if it's like part of the relationship, where this person just is not good about communicating, then you have to ask yourself, is this the way that I want to continue to do business? And for most of us, the answer is going to be no.

And. If the person you're trying to reach or the people that you're trying to reach are all not communicative, you've got to look at it and say, okay, why is that the case? Is it that what I'm saying to them is not interesting enough to warrant a response? I mean, that could be hard to take.

If it's one in a dozen or if it's one in a hundred, then it's probably not you. If it's all 12 of them, then you might want to look at, "okay, well what am I saying to these people that could potentially cause them to not want to respond?"

Kevin: We all take rejection hard sometimes. I made a joke earlier, maybe last episode about comparing it to dating. It's like, yeah, no one likes rejection. How can people not take it personally? Do you find that matrix helps that? To like take it less personally and make it more about data?

David: Well, I think what it allows you to do is to potentially reject those people before they even have a chance to reject you. If I'm reaching out to a new prospect a bunch of times and I'm not getting a response back, I can then determine this person is non-communicative. This person is not worth my time.

Therefore, I'm going to let one of my dreaded competitors deal with this person. Right? You leave them like little landmines out in the marketplace. Let somebody else deal with this.

So it's helpful in the sense that you're not waiting to eventually connect with that person and then have them reject you. I spent all that time trying to connect with this person and then they rejected me.

If you recognize people are uncommunicative, it's just not a good trait. In sales. It's a terrible trait.

Because if they end up buying from you and they're not communicative, then good luck getting paid cause they're not going to communicate there either.

Kevin: Or getting the information you need to put the through, whether it's artwork or whatever it is that you're doing. Yeah, for sure.

David: All of it.

Kevin: Very good point. Yeah, and obviously some people focus on quantity of leads. We're talking here about quality of leads. How much does that impact the sales game? Having the quality over the quantity?

David: Well, it's huge because if you are interacting with more people who are willing to communicate and willing to spend money and fewer people who aren't, can't even calculate the time savings on that. It's enormous.

Now, I'm not saying don't try to get a lot of leads in either. I'm definitely not saying that, but if you can bring in 10 leads who are communicative and who have money to spend it might be better than bringing in a hundred leads where 90 of them are not communicative and don't have money to spend and you're still getting to the same 10, right?

Or maybe in a scenario where it's a hundred, maybe there are 20 of them who would eventually be communicative.

We just don't know. So there's no one definitive answer to this. That's why I'm not saying, well, you must do this and you must do that. No, you decide. How much you're willing to do, what sorts of conversations you're willing to have to find out the answers to those questions, but also to do that as quickly as humanly possible.

You don't want to wait three months into pursuit of a prospect to find out that they don't meet any of these criteria....

When it comes to getting referrals proactively, that's another thing people do as well. They think they have to wait until they have already sold something and the client is happy. And that's not the case. I mean, when you're talking about asking about referrals, you can do that at any stage, and at every stage, I mean, ask always, right? Why not?

David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist and I discuss the topic of getting referrals proactively. Welcome back, Kevin.

Kevin: Great to be here, David. How you been?

David: Been doing great. and you?

Kevin: I can't complain. I'm doing well. Yeah, this is a good one. This is a good topic because anybody in any business can get a lot from more referrals. So, why do so many businesses sit around, waiting for referrals, instead of actively generating them.

David: I have no idea.

Kevin: Oh, thanks for joining us..

David: No, I do have an idea. Because I think we've probably all done it at one point or other over the years. The reason that I really think it's important to talk about referrals is so often, I mean, I've done presentations at trade shows all over the country and actually around the world.

I mean like Australia and in Europe. I mean, I've done this with a lot of people, a lot of times over a lot of years, and very often when I talk to people and I ask them the biggest way that they grow their business, they tell me referrals.

And when I hear that, I think, "okay, that's great, but how much business are you leaving on the table?"

Right? Because a lot of times they are doing exactly what you just described. They're just sitting around waiting for those referrals to come in. Now, they don't say that.

They won't tell you that. Right? What they'll say is, yeah, referrals. They got a lot of business from referrals. And I'm like, that's great.

And when you get business as a result of referrals, just because you're doing a good job and somebody hears about you, that is wonderful. But that is also extremely reactive. So that's why we're talking about, in this podcast, the idea of doing it proactively.

Because when you add that component to your referral-getting, you can very likely double or triple the results that you're getting as a result of just waiting around to see who shows up at your door.

Kevin: Is it a mindset shift that needs to happen to get better at asking for referrals or feel more comfortable asking for referrals?

David: It could very well be a mindset shift. It could be that it hasn't even occurred to people, right? It's like, okay, referrals are like a bonus. I get referrals. I'm happy when I get them, and I don't think about them.

But when you're looking to grow proactively, you need to think in terms of all the different methods that you're using to make that happen.

So if I'm doing any sort of outreach, whether it's social media, whether it's on the phone, whether it's emails, whatever it is that you're doing. You say, okay, well how can I do more of this?

And when it comes to referrals, a lot of times people say, oh, well, that's when stuff comes in. But it's like the old saying, I think it was Zig Ziglar who said, don't wait for your ship to come in if you haven't sent one out. I always love that quote.

Kevin: Really good.

David: And so, yeah. So if you're looking to get referrals, what are you doing to make that happen? It's just like anything else.

Social media. If you post something on social media and somebody responds to you, you've initiated a conversation. You don't have to wait for someone else to initiate a referral. You can do it more proactively.

So yeah, I think a lot of times it doesn't really occur to people that they can really get good at doing it proactively. I do think there is a discomfort level that comes with it sometimes. I'm like, yeah, I feel funny about it. I feel weird about it. Are they going to think I don't have much business? All that sort of thing.

So to your point, yeah, I think there is a bit of that going on as well.

Kevin: I've taken sales classes, listened to salespeople over the years. Gurus, whatever. And I remember this one woman had this thing where she said, you should ask someone to give you one name of someone that you could reach out to.

Then sit there like this with your head down and your pen in your hand and the paper in front of you, and wait for them to speak. And I remember thinking like I would be so uncomfortable on either side of that situation.

Are there right and right and wrong ways to ask for referrals that will be effective?

David: Well, there's only really right and wrong for you, right? If I tell you, okay, "this is how you get referrals," then, like what you just described, I heard that and I'm like, okay, that sounds interesting. That's a bold approach, right? It's like I'm...

Kevin: It's a bold approach.

David: I'm doing the assumptive. I'm like, it can be somebody that I can call and you just look down at your pen. Yeah, it's definitely going to create perhaps enough of a level of discomfort that someone will give you a name.

It can certainly happen like that, but you have to be comfortable with it, and so much of this is about personalities and so I never believe that there is one way to do things.

And that's why, in my work with clients, it's critical that I learn from them what they like, what they don't like, what they're willing to do, what they're not willing to do, what their approach is, all that sort of thing.

So in our Total Market Domination program, when we've got lessons that people go through where we're teaching about the concepts and what needs to happen, it's all about how can we adapt this to your approach, to your personality?

So if what that woman described to you in terms of asking and then looking down if that's not comfortable for you. The thing to do, in my view, is not to say, "oh, well I could never do something like that."

First thing I would do is I would say, "okay, well if I couldn't do that, what could I do? How far would I be willing to take that?"

And a lot of times, when we talk about proactive referrals, it's got to be done in a way that is comfortable for you. So a lot of times, that goes to the asking. Because, in many cases when people are asking for referrals, it does sound like you're shilling for business.

Hey, do you know anybody else who could use this? You know anybody else who wants to buy these products, right? Yeah, that sounds pathetic.

Kevin: It does. Yeah.

David: And ideally you don't want to do that. You don't want to ask like that. So when we're working with clients, what I generally recommend is an approach that is going to be more designed to get a positive answer.

So in other words. If I'm talking to you and you either just bought something from me or we had a conversation and we have a good rapport, and I want to ask you for a referral.

One of the ways that I can do it is I can say, "Hey, who else do you know that needs products, needs promotional products or needs items, needs printing services?"

And that sounds more like you're asking for business, but if you simply rephrase it and you say "let me ask you this. Who else do you know that needs help promoting their business?"

That's a whole different question, because now it's about helping the person as opposed to giving me business.

And people are a lot more likely to know someone who needs help accomplishing a goal than they are to know somebody who wants to buy promotional products right now.

They're going to feel uncomfortable answering that question, because when they hear it, they're going to think, "oh, okay, when he calls this person, he's going to say that they thought I would want to buy promotional products." Right?

As opposed to, that I could potentially use some help accomplishing something that they actually want to accomplish.

Kevin: Yeah, the framing. The framing is so important.

David: Yep. And those are the types of things that are generally fairly comfortable for people. Like, you hear that and you go, oh, okay, yeah, I can do that. Because...

Kevin: it makes, sense. Yeah.

David: Yeah, it just makes the whole presentation a lot more comfortable.

Kevin: Yeah. A re there ways that someone can make it easier for their clients or contacts to refer them on their own, without asking?

David: That's a great question. Like psychic. Well, that's kind of the reactive approach, isn't it? Like, waiting to see if they're going to do it? I, maybe I'm not understanding the question.

Kevin: Well, I guess like, are there maybe some more passive aggressive ways of, of asking, you know, rather than like, rather than like just coming out and being like, do you know anyone? Are there other ways that you can pull in referrals without having to be as proactive?

David: Okay. Passive aggressive. That's a really good question. It's a fun one, really, like, "I guess you wouldn't know anybody who wants to buy anything from me." No, I don't know. That's something that I've never...

Kevin: I mean, you don't strike me as the kind of person who knows anybody who might need...

David: Yeah. That... I, I've never really thought about a passive aggressive approach. I think the way that I've always approached it is.

Anything that I can do that is going to remind clients of the ways that we've helped, the successes we've helped them to create, so that they've got those thoughts in their head. Then when you do follow up and you ask them, do you know anybody else who wants to accomplish those same kind of things, do you know anyone else who's looking to accomplish those sorts of results?

They're in a better frame of mind to be able to say, yeah, you know what? I've got a brother-in-law who's been struggling with his business for a while. Why don't I put you in touch?

It's like, okay,...