Tough Things First

Why strong leadership doesn’t mean leading with power. In this Tough Things First podcast Ray Zinn offers some thoughts on why many organizational leaders get it wrong.

Rob Artigo: Well, you recently wrote, Ray, “The essence of leadership is not the wielding of power, but rather the wielding of grace and nurturing.” This is in line with what you wrote in your new book, The Essential Leader. You have made it a practice of being closer to your employees than the average CEO. Over the many years that you ran Micrel, 37 years you ran Micrel and you made a difference in the way that you operated as a CEO, which made you stand out from other CEOs in Silicon Valley. Why is that?

Ray Zinn: Well, if you’re wielding your leadership with power, that’s a negative. In other words, you’re using fear to get what you want done. And instead of wielding power, you’re wielding grace and nurturing, that’s love. So the difference is one is fear and the other is through love.

When we did a study on people who exited the company or left the company, we found that 75% of the people that leave are leaving because they’re having a problem with their manager because that manager wielded power rather than nurturing and grace. If you think of that, that’s 75% of the people, if that study that we did is correct, that 75% of the people that are unhappy at work are unhappy because of their boss and that that’s critical.

So managing by love, we talk about the steward leadership, you’re actually leading your flock as opposed to driving them. So as a shepherd, as you would, if he is a true shepherd, then he’s out in front leading his flock. If he’s having to dry the flock, he’s behind him with a whip or with some kind of punishing device to make them do what he wants them to do. And so when you wield power, you’re driving, you’re doing it through fear and intimidation. If you’re doing it through grace and love, then you’re out in front leading them. You’re not pushing them or driving them. And that’s why I came up with that musing referring to wield grace and truth, not power as a leader. And I think that’s important and critical if you want a stable and a loving workforce.

Rob Artigo: And you had an open door policy, you said, “Hey, come talk to me if you want.” I suppose there are some CEOs out there wielding their power in a authoritarian manner where they might say, “Hey, I have an open door policy,” but nobody ever goes there because they’re afraid of talking to that person. You made it a practice of walking around and talking to your employees so that they knew you well, and they knew that they could trust you if they had something they wanted to talk to you about. I suppose that makes a difference in the way that the employees behave?

Ray Zinn: Yeah. I recently did a leadership training for a company and I had the CEO of the company rank the people that reported to him and the managers that were reporting to the CEO, had them rank the people that were working for them and so forth and so on down the line. And it was interesting that the first line was like the CEO, the managers that worked for him, he rated them high, but he also rated the people that worked for his managers, he rated them low. But when we looked at the managers, they rated their employees high. So you can see that the second level, the CEO thought we’re doing a poor job, but yet the people that are working directly for them, the first line of managers, rated them higher.

So there’s a miscommunication there between the CEO and the second line of managers versus the first line. And I thought that was interesting. So there’s a breakdown. There’s a communication issue. It’s like dropping water over a cliff. If you’re right underneath the vessel that you’re dumping the water with, you’re going to get drenched. But as a water then gets down to the bottom of the cliff, you don’t feel it at all. So what’s happening is that apparently the CEO does not have faith in his first line managers or he would’ve rated the people that work for them higher. There’s a communication issue that has to be resolved where the first line manager rates his direct reports much better than he rated the people that were below them. I just say that’s a huge breakdown, I think, in communication that they have to resolve. And that’s the whole purpose of that musing, wielding grace and nurturing, not power.

Rob Artigo: The people that were in that class and the CEO and then the mid-managers and whatnot, were they surprised by that result and your take on it?

Ray Zinn: I wasn’t surprised. I was disappointed, obviously, but I wasn’t surprised because this is why I was there, was to dig into the problem. And it’s not surprising that the second level people rank their employees better than first level. That’s not unusual. You see, you tend not to want to blame the people report to you because you want to be considered to be a good manager. So obviously you’re going to rank those that report directly to you, you’re going to rate them higher. And you don’t have as much confidence or you don’t have as much love for the people that report to the first line managers, so you tend to rate them lower because that’s why you’re having problems in your company is because you believe that the lower level people are not doing their job. It’s not true. It’s first line that’s not doing their job or the CEO would love those that report to them.

We need to go to school on that and understand why it is that the people that report directly to you, you rank higher than those that report to them. And if that’s the case, you have a problem in your company or your organization. This is pretty universal. I mean, This is not just at this one company. I mean, I’ve seen this, even the school and in universities. I’ve seen it happen in nonprofit organizations. I’ve seen it in religious organizations and social organizations. This is not something new. This is a problem where the top managers think that that report to the first line managers are not doing their job. And that’s a definite signal or sign that you have a problem within your company. If you don’t feel as good about the people that report to your first line, if you don’t have as good a feeling about that, then that means you’ve got to breakdown somewhere in your organization.

Rob Artigo: And obviously Ray, you have said that it’s important for you as CEO to know your people and nurture them, but be a mentor, and that’s the remedy to the problem that exists, like you said, universally across different organizations.

Ray, the listeners can join the conversation at ToughThingsFirst.com. Their questions and comments are always welcome. Ray, you’re on X and Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course your books are out there. You have the Tough Things First book, you have Zen of Zen 1, 2 and 3, and of course the new book, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader. Ray, another great podcast. Thank you.

Ray Zinn: Well, thanks Rob.

Is it true that you should trust but verify? In this Tough Things first podcast, Ray Zinn if you have to verify, there’s no trust involved. (Watch Video Podcast)

Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Good to be back. Well, this is a special edition of The Tough Things First Podcast. It is a video podcast. If you want to watch the video, you can go to the website, toughthingsfirst.com, find this podcast, and then click on the link that takes you to Ray’s YouTube channel. And then click on that and you’ll be in the know, like so many others in Silicon Valley listening and watching this particular podcast.

Ray, recently you wrote about the phrase trust but verify. This is made famous by Ronald Reagan. It’s also a Russian proverb, but that’s where it comes from originally. But you say it’s a mistake to go by this saying because you describe it as blind trust. Tell me about that.

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s an oxymoron. If you trust somebody, you don’t have to verify. That’s the whole concept of trust. Trust is intrinsic in and of itself. That means you have confidence. You believe honestly that the person that you’re giving that trust to is going to fulfill their responsibility completely. Like a friend; a friend is one that you can trust, and that doesn’t say that you need to verify it. It just sounds to me like it was an oxymoron when I heard that phrase. I heard a lot on the news especially as it relates to Iran on the nuclear program that they’re doing, I kept hearing, “Okay, trust but verify.” If you have to verify something, that’s really not being trustworthy. If you are married to someone and you don’t feel you can trust them, then of course you’re going to be checking to verify if they’re in fact doing what they’re supposed to do as a spouse, or a friend.

I just thought it was kind of an oxymoron, and I looked up several versions of the definition of the word trust, and they all say the same thing, that you have confidence, they’re reliable, and they don’t need a validation or verification. So that’s what I thought was just kind of an interesting saying. You said it comes from a Russian saying or some other?

Rob Artigo: A proverb. Yeah, Russian proverb.

Ray Zinn: A proverb, right. Anyway, it just seemed to me to be an oxymoron. With my friends, I don’t have to verify. If you’re at work, if you have a time clock and you have to log in when you come into work, there’s no trust there. You’re just verifying. You’re validating vis-a-vis the time clock that you in fact logged in. In fact, companies that have these login devices to make sure that people are checking in at the appropriate time, they’re not trusting their employees, if you can understand what I’m saying.

Rob Artigo: Sure, sure. Trust is a invaluable asset in another person when you can trust them. But it’s fragile because it’s easy to mess that trust up, and then you have to get into verifying what they say. Let’s talk about the value of trust in a relationship, whether it’s a working relationship, a family relationship, or whatever. The value of that trust, you can’t put a price tag on real trust.

Ray Zinn: It’s paramount. It’s absolutely paramount. When you have a relationship that’s built on trust, like when I hop on an airplane, I trust that the pilot is going to do a good job. That means that all the appropriate boxes were checked as far as his certifications and so forth. Or if I go to a doctor and have some surgical process, procedure done, I have to trust that he’ll do it correctly.

So how do you verify it? Well, if you’re still alive after the anesthetic wears off, I guess you validated that that person knew what he was doing. If you don’t wake up, obviously then whether you’ve lost that trust or not won’t matter. We have to trust a lot of people. We trust people that we do business with. We trust people that we rely on to work physically, if they’re a doctor or if they’re an airline pilot or if they’re a lawyer or whatever, or a school teacher. It’s endemic. You have to trust. And to verify that the person did in fact perform as advertised, then it’s a little late. If you have to validate that someone did the job properly, it’s a little late, especially if you look at a doctor or an airline pilot or someone that has your life in his hands. That’s the ultimate trust.

And so in the case of Iran and this nuclear program that they have, trusting that they’re going to stop doing high-grade energy or high-grade nuclear power, it’s a little late because now they already have it and now you’re stuck with that issue. It just caught my eye, or caught my hearing I should say, as I was listening to that newscast and they said, “Okay, we’re going to trust that the Iranians are going to do it, but we’re going to verify.” If it’s someone you can’t trust, then obviously you’re going to have to verify or take some other action. So anyway, that’s how it came up with regard to Iran.

Rob Artigo: Do you think, in the case of Iran, that it’s more of a political statement? In other words, I’m saying trust but verify. I’m making an overture of trust, which doesn’t really exist because I am going to verify because I really don’t trust.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. That’s it. That’s the whole purpose of having someone there validating whether or not that they’re abiding by the agreement. There’s no trust there. You’re just going to check and make sure they’re doing what they’re going to be doing. I think it’s an oxymoron kind of a phrase, trust but verify. It doesn’t match the definition of the word trust.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, and I think we’ll wrap it up with this. If you’re working with somebody who believes you have all their trust, but you have somebody who’s checking on their work because you really don’t trust them. And I think an accountant can be; unfortunately, accountants are in a position to mess with your finances in a way that you don’t detect it for a very long time it can happen.

Ray Zinn: [inaudible 00:08:17].

Rob Artigo: I’m not saying accountants are bad, but you know what I’m saying, is that sometimes you need somebody to verify somebody’s work because you want to make sure that they’re doing right by you because you don’t really, you know.

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s like in an airplane. They have the pilot and they have the other co-pilot, and one backs up the other. But that’s not verifying. That’s just safety. It’s like putting on safety glasses; you’re protecting your eyes from being damaged by something. There are duplications, like airplanes having two engines instead of one or two propellers instead of one or whatever, or two batteries instead of one. There’s always backup, but that’s not verification. That’s just a safety of just having multiple ways to protect yourself. So that’s different than trust but verify.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, it’s just prudent to have some redundant systems-

Ray Zinn: Exactly.

Rob Artigo: … to protect yourself. Sometimes it’s just logical sense and then nobody’s offended by that because they know that that’s just the way it works.

Ray Zinn: On this program called American Greed, it’s a reality show or something. Anyway, not reality. It’s a re, what do we want to call it?

Rob Artigo: They do reenactments.

Ray Zinn: Right, reenactments. And what people do is when you invest in a particular company, you’re putting that trust that they’re going to do what they’re supposed to do. On American Greed, it’s all about people that you trusted that screwed you, that took your money and did you in, as you would. And that’s the problem as we were talking about with Iran and the nuclear program, is that we say, “Well, okay, you’re going to shut down your centrifuges, but we’re going to have somebody come by and check.” They can agree to shut down their centrifuges, but we’re going to verify if they did or not. That’s not trust though. That’s the whole purpose of this podcast. That’s not being trustworthy.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, the listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions, your comments are always welcome at Tough Things First. Also, follow Ray on X and Facebook and LinkedIn. And of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First. And as you know, the Zen of Zinn Series 1, 2, and 3. And on sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

Is the push for American Made an open door to a would be entrepreneur? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn tells us how it could be done for those seeking the American Dream.

Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. How’s it going today?

Rob Artigo: Great. So with a nation, I feel like we’re in a mode of… There’s turmoil going on and there’s some uncertainty out there, but one of the interesting things is this drive to bring some manufacturing back to the US and I’ve been thinking about are there opportunities for would-be entrepreneurs out there to dive in and take a chance on some of these things? This would be like carving out a niche, making a product that is typically known to be made overseas and making them here instead. And I think you can do it on kind of a small scale. Also going based on the idea that people who are doing this might have limited time and limited resources to get going, but they may have come up with a brilliant idea and something they’d really like to do and maybe take charge of their own destiny in that respect. Here are some suggestions that I pulled together and it really references how to pull it off. I talked about limited resources, financial resources, and limited time.

Rob Artigo cont: The first suggestion here is to start lean, pick just a product and test it out. And this could be like kitchen tools or a card table, something that maybe you’re building something that you can sell locally. But I think the important thing is you got to budget and start lean.

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s interesting. In mid to late seventies when I was working in semiconductors in Silicon Valley, actually in the Bay Area, the government was trying to force companies out of the area because they were worried about the pollution and water contamination and other green-y type initiatives. And so the companies were moving out, they’re either moving to different states or they’re moving their companies out of the country. They’re off shoring it. I looked at that as a real opportunity, grow my company and my idea. And so I asked my friends, I said, what do you think about me starting a semiconductor company in Silicon Valley? And they go, oh, it’s crazy. Everybody’s leaving. Everybody’s moving out, everybody’s offshoring. I mean, why would you want to start a company where everybody’s leaving? The government is against you, they’re putting all these rules and regulations and trying to stop you from producing in the state.

I said, well, let me see what I can do to work with them. So I started finding out ways that I could minimize the concerns that they had. And I said, look, if we’re going to be employing all these people, and actually the government can cooperate with me, when they viewed me as not being threatening, that I was not acting like the victim. I was really trying to have a positive influence on the community. And they actually cooperated with me. I mean, I got a lot of concessions when I started producing semiconductor wafers and my products here in Silicon Valley. It’s really expensive and the labor costs were high and the material costs, the water and electricity, the utilities were high and the taxes were high, and it looked like there was no way I could succeed. But I found a niche. I found a way to work within the system, and it was quite successful.

In fact, I ran probably one of the most successful semiconductor companies that was ever formed. I didn’t lose any money except for one year because I worked within the system. I didn’t let the system defeat me. I used the system to benefit us. We touted the fact that we were US manufactured. That gave me some clout with companies that want to use US manufacturing. I used some older equipment that people had gotten rid of because they were having to move out of the Bay Area. So I was able to buy my equipment quite inexpensively.

I was able to actually produce a wafer fan that was about 1/20th the cost that I would normally have to spend because I just took advantage of people who were leaving and bought their equipment for 5 cents on the dollar. I just found a way to live within the system. So that’s what you need to do is find out how you can use this on-shoring capability in a way to take advantage of that, that will help you as we now move into a more of an on-shoring environment. Just look for niches. Look for ways that you can benefit from doing it here rather than over there, as they say.

Rob Artigo: And you did. One of the suggestions here is that you sourced cheap. You went around and you found bargains where you could. And I imagine that back when X manufacturing ceased in the US and went overseas, that the technology was different in terms of how to get it done. And there may be ways to do the same thing now, more cost effectively and competitively, just simply because technology has changed. Am I right?

Ray Zinn: Yeah. What I did was I found ways to market semiconductors that did not require expensive equipment, did not require me to have to offshore. I never offshored while I was running my crowd because I had the on-shore view. In other words, that was my focus. So I just said, okay, where can we benefit or how can we benefit from doing it locally as opposed to having it offshore? So I worked feverishly to maintain a local US-based company. When other people told me, you can’t do it, you’ll fail. The labor costs are too high, utilities are too high. For those of you who know Silicon Valley, you know that it’s very expensive. Everything’s expensive. Rent was expensive, utilities are expensive, labor costs are expensive.

And they just looked at it in a very negative way. And I looked at it in a positive way. I said, how can I benefit from these more expensive labor costs? Or how can I benefit from the higher rent and utilities and so forth? And so I looked at how do I benefit, not how do I lose. I took the positive aspect of it as opposed to the negative.

Rob Artigo: Wow, Ray, that’s just being on a mission to get it done and being very smart about it as you go through the process. And then of course you want to be able to, whatever it is that you end up making or building or… Your business has to be able to sell something fast so that you can scale quickly. And I imagine that you have to get out there and you have to scale quickly and you have to scale smart.

Ray Zinn: As I said about the utilities, how I benefited from the utilities is that I said, okay, how can I minimize the amount of water that I use? How can I minimize how much power I use? And so I looked at working within how expensive, because if things are cheap, you tend to exploit the cheapness of it by not finding ways to get around it. Whole concept of me using less water, less power, that may be competitive. How do I benefit from higher cost labor? I just found ways to minimize the amount of labor, human labor I had to use, and I was able to hire better people to perform those functions that I needed. And I were just more efficient. So I probably had one of the most efficient semiconductor companies in the world because I was induced or motivated to work around more expensive labor, more expensive utilities. So I want everybody to know that I was in Silicon Valley, my company was in Silicon Valley until I sold it in 2015. We’re in the most profitable semiconductor company in the world.

Rob Artigo: And it would seem that if you’re listening to this, that might be an onerous environment. Oh, we had to stress over every single nickel and dime, and that’s just not the way it was at Microl. People there were productive. They were happy to be there. And there wasn’t anything… It wasn’t like it was a slave driving or anything like that. We are talking about a company that was very successful and the people who worked there were happy and they worked within an environment where they could be cost-effective and productive at the same time. And that’s any CEO’s dream.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. So just want everybody to know that I ran a extremely profitable semiconductor company in Silicon Valley using Silicon Valley expensive labor, Silicon Valley expensive utilities. I lived within that. And that actually made us a better company when I learned to live with what I have, rather than saying, oh my gosh, the labor costs are going up, my utilities are going up, taxes are going up. I looked at make those a positive, and so I just learned how to minimize the impact of higher costs.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, the listeners can send messages to you by going to toughthingsfirst.com and accessing a message platform for you. And they can ask a question if they have it, a comment if they want to, and just put it out there and Ray will read it and he’ll get back to you if that’s what’s required. So Ray is on X. He’s also on Facebook and the LinkedIn and Ray’s books are out there. Tough Things First and the Zen of Zen series one, two, and three, the Essential Leader is on sale now. Your new book from Ray Zinn, 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks Rob.

Failure happens. But is it really a failure if you learn something valuable? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses how a few business failures paved the way to a massively successful semiconductor company.

Rob Artigo: Here with me is Ray Zinn, the longest-serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Being invited back is always great, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob, every day is a good day when I get to do a podcast with you.

Rob Artigo: Oh, I appreciate that. Of course, it’s fun and we have great conversations. So you ran a very successful semiconductor business for 37 years, Micrel, but before you did that, you had a couple of failed business ventures that had to be disappointing and emotionally taxing, but you used those experiences as motivation to find something bigger and better.

Ray Zinn: Absolutely.

Ray Zinn cont: You win by trying. You don’t win by not doing anything. I’m reminded of this fellow that was a marathoner, well, he was trying to be a marathoner. And he was running his race, his marathon, and his dad had recently passed away. And he was running the marathon, but he was having trouble maintaining his pace. And he would stumble and fall, and he was thinking, “Oh, I’m falling so far behind.” He was ready to give up. And then he’d hear his dad saying, “Hey, son, get up and start. Keep going.” He’d get up and start going again. And then again, he’d slow down. He would put his hands on his knees and then just say, “I’m done. I just can’t do it.” And then he’d hear his dad’s voice in his head saying, “Son, keep going. Don’t stop. Keep going.”

Anyway, when the race was over, he didn’t finish anywhere near the front. He finished at the back of the pack, but he finished. In other words, he didn’t just say, “I’m done. I can’t do it anymore.” And he kept going. And that’s what it is with any venture you start or attempt, don’t start it if you’re not going to finish it. And so in my case, I had three other businesses that I started before I started Micrel, but they led me to starting my company, Micrel, my more successful business. So they were stepping stones.

In other words, it’s kind of like you’re going from point A to point B, and you just draw out a path, and maybe it’s not perfectly straight. You maybe have some deviations, but you keep on the path, as you would. And that’s what I did is, even though I wasn’t successful in three of my businesses, it didn’t prevent me from being successful in my fourth. So as they say, if you at first don’t succeed, try, try again. And that’s what I did. I just kept trying.

But I looked back on my work history and the companies I started, and actually motivationally, I learned from each one. Each one that I started helped me. And when I finally got with my fourth one, which was Micrel semiconductor, it really got me to where I am. And so I don’t look at falling down as failure. I look at falling down as a learning process. Even though I was thinking at times, “Hey, I’m going to go get another job. I can’t be starting these companies and failing. It’s been costly to my family and costly to me personally, financially.” So I was ready to just throw in the towel, but I didn’t. I just said, “Let’s move on. Let’s move on.” And so that’s what I call this series of just moving on.

Rob Artigo: Looking around on the internet, I found some suggestions on how entrepreneurs who find themselves in this situation, how they should perhaps react to what’s going on, obviously using it as motivation. But let’s see if you agree with these. There’s three points here. But the first one is if you have a failed venture, not get disappointed, but you have to face the situation head on. Is that pretty accurate?

Ray Zinn: Yeah, that’s exactly right. You can’t face it on rear on. So that’s rear-facing, not front-facing.

Rob Artigo: Right. And then looking back, it should be a matter of drawing from it what you’ve learned from the experience, right?

Ray Zinn: Right. Don’t argue yourself into the ground by looking backwards. Face it on. Face it, which means looking forward.

Rob Artigo: And here’s one that I figure you might have an issue with because it’s not in your nature to get mad about something, but it says, “If you find yourself in this situation, let it make you angry.”

Ray Zinn: Well, that term of anger is what we call righteous anger as opposed to negative anger. So righteous anger is okay. In other words, if you’re saying, “Listen, I think I can do better than this,” and then you get upset with yourself, and you maybe give yourself a good tongue lashing, that’s righteous anger. Don’t be satisfied with mediocrity. Get angry with yourself about that. But don’t get angry with others. Get angry with yourself. That’s what that means.

Rob Artigo: The last one here is reframe it as a gap to close. So it says, “Every letdown shows you where you’re not yet good enough.” Maybe it’s skills, network, or whatever, but it shows you where you lack something. Is that true?

Ray Zinn: Well, I just talked about that before you started that list that you read off from the internet. I said I started three different businesses before I started Micrel, and each failed business led me to where I succeeded. Failure only becomes failure when you don’t learn from it. So I call it a learning process, not a failing process.

Rob Artigo: And also, I want to point out to the listeners that your new book, The Essential Leader, 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader, the first chapter, it’s about try, try again. You mentioned that at the beginning of your comments here, but you modify that to say, “Try, try again, but …” And what you’re saying is make sure that you don’t fail next time the same way you failed this time.

Ray Zinn: Well, repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result is stupidity. So don’t be stupid. Don’t make the same mistake over and over thinking you’re learning. You’re not. You have to learn from your mistakes.

Rob Artigo: Well, join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. If you have questions for Ray, you can ask him there, and he’ll get back to you. Your questions and comments, of course, are always welcome. You can follow Ray on social media, there’s X, Facebook and LinkedIn. And Ray’s books are out there. I just mentioned The Essential Leader. There’s also Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn, series one, two, and three. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

Working from home may have seemed like progress over hustle culture, but has it brought on something worse? Un-Hustle culture. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says one bad work ethic has led to a worse work ethic.

Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about hustle culture. One of the soundbites we use in the intro for this podcast is… It’s one of my favorites from you. You say, “If you think you have to work 80 hours a week to be successful, then you’re dead wrong.” So when I was looking for topics for the podcast session, I saw the words hustle culture on the internet, and I immediately thought of that quote. So hustle culture is the belief that you have to grind it out 24/7. And I imagine you’re not a fan of hustle culture.

Ray Zinn: No. Not at all.

Rob Artigo: Looking at hustle culture, I imagine that you’ve had a lot of experiences of seeing it. Some people would call it A type personalities. Some people say that, “I’ve enjoyed working at this company or this firm,” and other people say, “Look, I don’t like working at that one because the idea is that you’ve got to run like a Mad Man around and continue to work.” I hear about this, like Wall Street is… For young people, there’s this hustle culture where they’re basically working 24/7 and they’re working at 100 miles per hour because they’re trying to outdo everybody else. And I imagine there’s a huge amount of burnout that can go along with that kind of mindset.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. I’m not sure everybody suffers from this hustle culture, but certainly they’re getting involved in it. I had a guy who worked for me for four or five years. I didn’t see him get a lot done during the day. In other words, he was there… I mean, he’d come in at 7:00 and he wouldn’t leave until 7:00, so he was working 12 hours, but he didn’t get a lot done. And so I decided I was going to… He didn’t work directly for me. He actually worked for a couple of people below me. But I noticed that he had a lot of magazines on his desk, and so I would just swing by his office periodically just to see what he was doing. And I see him reading these magazines. When he went to lunch one day, I decided just to go in his office and look to see what magazine he was reading because he had a stack of about 10 or 12 magazines. And there were magazines on cars, on sports, on flying, on cooking. I mean, it was all different kinds of magazines that he was looking at.

Of course, this is kind of giving away my age because now they just look on the internet and do the same thing. But I asked him. I said, “Gary…” Because he didn’t know I’d looked at his stack of magazines. I said, “Gary, so what is it you’re doing with all these magazines? I mean, you’ve got a stack of them there.” He says, “Oh, I’m getting up-to-date on things that will help our company.” And I said, “Like what?” And he says, “Oh, just take different kind of marketing tools and techniques that are.” And I said, “Would you mind just showing me what magazines it is you’re looking at that are going to help the company?” He’s, “Oh. He said, “Don’t worry about it.” And he grabbed the whole stack of them and put them in his desk. And I said, “Why’d you do that?” He says, “Oh, you’re busy. You’re too busy for this sort of thing, so I don’t want to disrupt what you’re doing.” But he would just turn beet red.

He was so embarrassed over it, I’m sure, because he didn’t want me to know what books he was reading or magazines he’s reading. And we have the same darn thing that’s happening with the internet and people looking at stuff that has nothing to do with their job, but they’re spending time, in other words, they’re just wasting time, just because they want people to know they’re working 24/7 when they’re really not, so… Or is the other one, you just say the class A personality where they’re always kissing up to the boss and they’re trying to show that they’re really producing for the company and it’s that hustle thing. So I don’t see much hustling anymore because people work from home and I know darn well they’re not working 24/7 from home. So-

Rob Artigo: Yeah. And you got to imagine that the internet and X and other distractions are there and there’s nobody to see that the person is not being productive. So if you got away with it at work when you were in the office before, imagine how much less productive people are because of those distractions. I mean, that magazine story is perfect for this because one of the things is that if you are working 24/7 or you’re trying to put that out there, some studies show productivity actually tanks after 50 to 55 hours each week anyway. If you get to the point where you’re burned out, you’re going to look for distractions. So he’s there all the time. So he gets like, “Oh, I got to fill the time with something else that’ll take my mind off of how much I’m thinking about these other things,” and your productivity goes down.

Ray Zinn: Well, I know… Another example of one of my employees is that he would take a two-hour walk. In other words, he would… About 11:30, he’d take off and then I wouldn’t see him again until 1:30 and his car was still there. So I asked him one day. I said, “So where are you between 11:30 and 1:30?” He said, “Well, I take this walk.” And I said, “So why?” “Oh, I get out in the fresh air and I get to do some exercising.” And he said, “I’m still working. Oh, I’m working. Don’t think I’m not working.” And I said, “Well, I didn’t say that. I just wondering what you’re doing.” And he said, “Well, I’m exercising my brain. I’m exercising my legs and my body and the company really benefits from what I’m doing.” But he was literally… Every day he was gone for two hours and he says he was walking. Maybe he was. But that’s another way we’re wasting time.

We’re thinking we’re putting in 80 hours a week when we’re only putting in maybe 10. Don’t think you’re productive or you’re busting your butt for your company just because you’re working from 7:00 to 7:00,” as they would. And I think because of COVID and a lot of people are working from home, they’re not working even 20 hours a week. So this hustle thing is just really diminished since people have worked from home doing these… We call them these bubble bath Zooms where they’re in the bathtub doing a Zoom call at the same time. So they call it the bubble bath Zoom, so… Anyway.

Rob Artigo: I hadn’t heard that. Hadn’t heard that term. Well, our listeners can join us and the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. If you have questions for Ray, you can just ask them there. He’ll get back to you. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on X and Facebook and LinkedIn, and pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series, One, Two and Three and on sale now, The Essential Leader, Ray’s new book, 10 Skills, Attributes and Fundamentals that Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Page 89 is what I’m focused on in Zen of Zinn 2, the book you wrote, and it’s about the victim mentality, and you talk about it by sharing a list that you created and you called it the victim mentality list, appropriately named. So I thought we would go through some of these items here on this list of the victim mentality and just talk about why they are associated with the victim mentality. The first one is blame. When it comes to the victim mentality apparently blame tops your list. Tell me about it.

Ray Zinn: Well, what’s interesting, Rob, is that the victim mentality, if I were to ask you, “Rob, do you have a victim mentality?” You would probably say what?

Rob Artigo: I would say, “No.”

Ray Zinn: See. I’ve never talked to anybody, not one single person when I’ve discussed the subject of victim mentality, none of them say, “Oh no, I don’t have a victim mentality. No, not me.” And so it’s ironic and we made up this list. So let’s see. When we finish this podcast, you can rate yourself as to whether or not you have a victim mentality.

Rob Artigo: Okay, okay.

Ray Zinn: A victim mentality, as I started out, number one is blame. If you blame someone else for a problem you have or had, then that’s one characteristic of a victim mentality. Have you ever blamed anyone for something that impacted you? Have you, Rob? When you’ve had a problem, have you ever blamed someone?

Rob Artigo: I’m sure I have. At one point or another I have definitely done that. Number two on the list is rationalize and self-justify.

Ray Zinn: Have you ever rationalized something saying, “Well, I’m not perfect. Yeah, I’m not a skilled mechanic, or I’m not a carpenter, so that’s why this project didn’t turn out so well.” Or, “The wood was warped or something else was wrong. The machine broke, my 3D printer made a mess of my project.” So that’s when we start rationalizing, it’s something like blame. We start rationalizing why something didn’t turn out. Again, we’re back to blame again, something else and that, well, the economy, that’s another one. We could say, “Well, the economy, I lost my job. It’s not me, it’s somebody else, something, a piece of equipment broke down or whatever.” And that’s how we rationalize our failure in a particular project.

Rob Artigo: And the next one is complain.

Ray Zinn: Right. Have you ever complained about the weather? Have you ever complained about your spouse or have you ever complained about your neighbors? Ever complained about somebody who cut you off when you were driving where you said, “Hey, dummy, use your signal,” have you ever done that?

Rob Artigo: I hate to admit it, but on the driving part, yes, I mumble under my breath how dumb they are?

Ray Zinn: Well, again, see, so we’re complaining. And so if you say, “Oh, man, what a crummy day today is,” or, “Gosh, that guy just pulled in front of me or he cut me off, or he got in front of me in line.” I was shopping the other day with my wife and there’s about four or five lines that we could go into, and of course my wife’s looking for the shortest line to get to the cashier. And she said, “Come hurry over here. This is line’s less people.” And as I started to move over there, this other person who was right next to me took off. It was a woman actually with a cart full of stuff, and she just went right in front of me, actually hit my cart, knocked me sideways a little bit, and boy, I didn’t think very kindly of that. I said, “Oh.” I didn’t say anything to her, but I was not thinking a happy thought.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, well, you’re one to make sure that you pause and bite your tongue a little bit when you feel like saying something and you don’t, that moves into make excuses as well, I think it falls in line with that. And then the next one is finding fault and getting angry.

Ray Zinn: Well, these are all kind of tied together. Have you ever been angry, Rob?

Rob Artigo: Sure.

Ray Zinn: Okay. So that’s another victim. In other words, when you are trying to blame someone else for the difficulty or the kerfuffle that you’re in, that’s a clear sign that you’re playing the part of a victim. You just have to know that victims come from different ways and you keep thinking, “Well, I don’t think that’s a victim if I get angry and upset.” I see that now with what’s happening with Tesla because of Elon Musk, they’re getting angry, they’re burning his dealerships or destroying cars, writing graffiti on the cars. That’s a way of saying I’m a victim. In fact, we’ve heard some of the news media excuse the people who are doing damage to these Tesla dealerships and cars because they’re angry and upset, “You’re impacting me. I don’t like you anymore.” And you’re playing a part of a victim when you do that, when you get angry and upset.

All of us at some time or another probably have a victim mentality. But again, if I ask you, “Do you play the part of a victim?” You say no because you hate the thought of being called a victim. I’ve heard lots of interviews on TV and radio, people saying, “Oh, you act like a victim.”

“Oh, no, no, not me. I’m not a victim.” And they get all irate. So none of us want to be considered a victim, but if we blame others, we look for excuses, we try to rationalize it, are angry and upset, then we are a victim.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, the list goes on here. It talks about minimizing and trivializing things, making demands, covering things up. How about doubt and lose hope?

Ray Zinn: Right. If you don’t think the future is good enough for you, if you don’t think that the government’s treating you right, if you don’t think that you’re going to have a better life or things are going to get better for you, you’re losing hope, you have doubt, and that’s another sign of a victim. “It ain’t me. I can’t be a victim because somebody else is doing it to me.”

Rob Artigo: Yeah, and it sounds like this other one here, having self-pity and being the victim, which is kind of obvious and then abandon, indecision, denying and lying, procrastinating and rebelling. How about rebelling?

Ray Zinn: Well, again, as that destroying those Tesla dealerships, that’s rebellion. And so fighting back, getting angry and upset, throwing a tantrum and doing things which are deleterious too is playing the part of the victim. I have a right to get mad, in other words.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, you finish this off by saying, “We have a choice. Give up our agency, be a victim, or take control of our life and accept responsibility for our actions.”

Ray Zinn: Just be happy. If you’re happy, you’re not going to be a victim. So be grateful, happy, serve others. Do what you can to make this a better place and you will not be a victim. So if you want to avoid the victim mentality, avoid all that list of things that I discussed in that musing and you will be a happier and you won’t be a victim.

Rob Artigo: Of course, our listeners can join us at toughthingsfirst.com if they have any questions or comments, you can just leave a message there for Ray. He’ll answer the questions, he’ll help you out if you are confused about something. Please go to toughthingsfirst.com and try that out. Follow Ray on X and Facebook and LinkedIn and pick up the books, Tough Things First and, of course, the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three and on sale now The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader Thank you, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

We all know change is inevitable, but layoffs can be devastating when you find your once secure job has vanished. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says don’t panic, just be prepared.

Rob Artigo: Here with me again is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hi Ray.

Ray Zinn: Hello Rob.

Rob Artigo: You are always thinking and reflecting on the world around you, and that’s really great for your writing. You recently wrote this and it goes, “Our current economy is in a state of flux. Layoffs are inevitable. Layoffs, they’re terrible and they’re disruptive. Lives are impacted. What’s the resolution,” you say, “to minimize the impact of layoffs? First, don’t panic. You’ll recover. It is just a matter of time before you will have this behind you. Second and most important is to always have yourself prepared for layoffs. You’re basically living within your means. Avoid unnecessary debt. Always looking for other opportunities as a backup plan, and keep your name out there. Bottom line, always assume things are never permanent. Change is always out there and being prepared for change is the best approach.” Very good writing there, Ray.

Rob Artigo Cont:It’s important now, because let’s face it, there are people who are losing their federal government jobs as a matter of course. There are people in other areas where there are adjustments going on. Even in California, fast food restaurants with the minimum wage going to $20 an hour, a lot of places have moved to a kiosk instead of a person working a register at the counter to save money on that, so those people end up losing their jobs as well. Across the spectrum and for a variety of reasons, not just what we’re experiencing here in America right now, but there are people who are going to lose their jobs. You’re saying, look, just don’t panic.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. Again, these times, well, these are not just new because they’ve been happening for centuries, where changes been taking place. I can remember, not I can even remember, I recall I should say, in Adam Smith’s book Wealth of Nations, when the locomotive came on board and started taking over the wagon trains and Pony Express and other things, they were panicking then because, oh, this is going to ruin my occupation. Stage coach builder, stage coach, driver, horse breeder and trainer and so forth, and the Pony Express. I’m going to lose my job now because the mail is going to be delivered by the trains and then the wagon trains are going to cease to exist because the railroad is going to bring people from east coast to west coast. This is not new. This is just a technology-advancing development.

When we think of change, it’s always with us and has been with us for thousands of years, and we’d have to adapt. I know people are worried about AI and the impact that AI will have with robots and other automation, people are going to get displaced. As I wrote in my musing that you just read, you have to be prepared for change. Change is with us and it’s not going to stop unless you stop advancing capability and technology. With the government, DOGE as they call it, shrinking the size of government, there are going to be a lot of people losing their jobs and unemployment is with us. I mean, this is just the nature of an economy is unemployment.

Always live within in your means. Absolutely, don’t take on any more debt than you have to. Always assume that a recession is right around the corner. Always assume that you could lose your job at any time. I know I have a lot of friends that work for the government, I mean a lot of friends, and they’re panicked because they’re thinking, “Well, I thought I had a cushy job,” and that’s a problem. Whenever you think you have a cushy job, you don’t. Just bear that in mind. Cushy jobs are just a figment of your imagination.

You may have a job that, for example, working from home. I know a lot of people are worried about having to have to go back to work. I predict by the way, that by the end of 2026, all A-L-L, all companies will require the employees to come back to work. That cushy bubble bath Zoom thing you’ve been doing is going to go away and you’re going to have to drive back to work. Are there some negatives associated with driving to work? Yeah, you get more traffic on the freeways and you are going to lose half an hour to two hours traveling to and from work. Yes, you can’t go out and water your garden and be on the Zoom calls at the same time. Yeah, things are going to change. You’re going to have to go back to work. Better get used to it because it will happen, I predict by the end of 2026, which is just a little over a year away, maybe year and a half away.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, yeah.

Ray Zinn: Just bear in mind change is with us. Live within your means. Always be out there looking for a new job. Stay up to date on what’s happening with technology. Could technology influence your job? Sure. I mean, these cars now that are self-driving, that’s going to impact people who are currently driving like Uber and Lyft and companies like that, that have people driving their clients and customers to and from where they need to go. That’s going to change because these self-driving vehicles don’t require a driver. There’s going to be a point I predict within the next five years where, if you’re an Uber driver or a Lyft driver, you could be out of a job.

Same thing with trucking. Trucking will be done self-driving as you would. If you’re a trucker, bear in mind that, that could impact you also. Anyway, the bottom line is be prepared for change because it is there. It’s always going to be with you. You’re going to have to deal with it. Like it or not, change is here. Technology advances that. Remember I talked about the invention of the locomotive, the trains. That impacted a lot of people. A lot of jobs were impacted by the development of locomotion, and that happened back in the late-1700s. You’re going to be influenced by change the rest of your life.

Rob Artigo: I spent years in radio and I remember once applying for a job at one point and they had asked me if I’d ever been fired. The answer is, yeah, a couple times in radio. Well at least, if memory serves one time for sure. But I explained to this person, they were very concerned, “Why did you get fired?” I said, “When you get fired in radio, it’s not the same thing as getting fired in other jobs, nine times out of 10.” I suppose some people get fired for being incompetent or doing something, breaking down on the job in some way, shape, or form. But, because shows change and things change and they might want to have a different personality, a different person in that role, then they’ve got to move you out. You just lose your job. I always lived my life in radio with the mindset that I could lose my job at any time. I never felt comfortable in the job, so I take to heart what you’re saying because it makes perfect sense to me just about being prepared and keeping your name out there. I want to underscore that.

Well, for the listeners, they can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Ray invites you to ask him questions. You can go to toughthingsfirst.com and leave a message there. He answers questions so you’d be surprised how often he gets back to people. Your questions and comments are certainly always welcome. Follow Ray on X and also Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course Ray’s books are out there, Tough Things First, The Zen of Zinn series as well, one, two, and three. On sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals that Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.

What you need to know now. In this Tough Things First podcast Ray Zinn demystifies the troubled waters so we can all get it and look forward. Call it Part 1.

Rob Artigo: Good to be back, Ray. Nice to see you. Thriving amid uncertainty and handling adversity. That’s what we’re talking about here in this podcast. 2025 has been a wild ride so far, and I’m not really overstating that, am I?

Ray Zinn: What’s interesting is last week I met with the Montana Secretary of State and her team. I gave this talk on leadership. It went fine except they wanted to ask some questions about uncertainty in the world and especially in the US economy. So, I thought that was interesting and appropriate, why we should cover that and discuss it today because foremost in everybody’s mind is what impact, inflation? Is there a recession pending? What about interest rates? What about tariffs, and what’s going on with the stock market? So let’s talk about them kind of individually, just as I listed the topics that I covered.

So, if we look at inflation, what’s happening with inflation? Well, you’re probably getting this on the news, but inflation looks like it’s abating. In other words, it came down some last month. Will it continue to come down? There’s a big speculation regarding the effect of tariffs, so let’s talk about tariffs before we jump into a recession.

Tariffs are meant to level the playing field between countries and especially those that sell to the US, so that’s been bandied around and beat up quite a bit over the last week or two. Tariffs are meant to, at least the way that the Trump administration looks at it, it’s meant to bring the other countries to the table and negotiate with them a better term so that we can sell to them. It’ll have a big impact on Ag culture. The Ag culture is the one that’s going to benefit the most from these tariffs released.

Now, the other countries which are selling cars, refrigerators, dishwashers, consumer electronics and so forth to us because the labor is cheaper in those countries is the big debate. That’s where everybody is having a proverbial fit over it. Depending on how fast we can bring automation back to the US or automation in the sense of the word of reducing the labor costs, that will help that issue regarding the products that we offshored to reduce the cost of the product and the labor to produce it. So if we get more automation, AI and so forth, that really helps us, and we’re able to produce in this country at the same when we offshored it, then there won’t be any impact on the product that’s coming into the country.

If we have multiple countries that produce the same product, then there’s some competition, and that could impact or at least minimize the effect of the prices on the product coming in because of the competition between countries. So, this all depends upon what kind of products that are going to be onshore versus offshored and just how fast we can go to full-blown automation or AI, as some people refer to it.

The biggest impact on this is going to be on consumer electronics, clothing and that sort of thing. I think Trump has now backed off on tariffs on consumer electronics, so that’s kind of been settled. Clothing? Again, that’s all a function of automation and what countries will compete with each other. There’s a lot of countries that are producing clothing, so that won’t have as big an impact if they’ll compete with each other. I’m not sure how big of an impact that’s going to be on pricing for clothing because I’m not sure. I don’t believe we’re going to produce much clothing here in the US. We’ve kind of lost that skill, that art as you would, and those other countries have picked up that capability, and there’s a lot of labor involved in making clothing.

What impact will that have on our economy as far as interest rates and so forth, and are we looking at a recession? So the Fed, federal banking, looks at things like inflation and whether or not the economy is growing or recessing. Of course, to get the interest rates down, you have to lower spending. In other words, you’ve got to drop demand. So when you drop demand, then of course the GDP will minimize, which you’re going to have less GDP growth, which brings me to really talking about the business cycle.

So in Q1, quarter one, which is January through March, that’s our weakest quarter. In fact, it’s coming off of Christmas, and Q1 is a very weak quarter. So, we’ll start seeing the numbers on how Q1 went in another month or so. Not in a month. Let’s say another few weeks, actually, as these companies start reporting their results.

Q2 is typically a more upbeat quarter. In other words, you’re coming off of the down Q1, and Q2 which is then April through June should be a better quarter. So, all eyes are on how bad was Q1 and how good does Q2 look? We won’t learn about Q2 until probably August. Well, early August, late July. So, you can see kind of the timing. We’re in a no man’s land because we’re coming off a weak quarter, so we don’t expect great results. If we get decent results off of Q1, that’ll help the stock market.

So then Q3, which is July through September, is our strongest quarter. In other words, that’s the best quarter of the year. Again, we don’t get results on Q3 until more like late October, first part of November. Then Q4, which is October through December, is a slower period. Let me back up a minute, going back to Q3, so Q3 is building up for Christmas. Christmas is our strongest season and even worldwide. That’s why Q3 is generally a stronger quarter, and Q4 is more of a flattish quarter. We don’t expect hardly any growth because you’re coming off of Christmas or you’re in Christmas as you would. I’m not sure that you’re going to get a big bump in Q4. Then back to Q1, which is a bad quarter or a weak quarter.

So, we’re all looking at the numbers, looking at how the companies report, and that will definitely impact the stock market. Is there going to be a recession? In order for interest rates to come down, GDP has to slow. Okay. When GDP slows, depending upon what political bent you are, you’re going to scream your head off. If the GDP comes down and it’s looking like we’re getting into a recessionary period, and the other side is saying, “Well, look. We’re naturally transitioning from a no tariff to tariff, so that’s having some impact.” What impact will that have on inflation depends again how the government negotiates these tariffs.

So, are tariffs good? They can be. Are tariffs bad? They can be. So, it just depends upon how well you manage that. We really didn’t have an income tax in this country. We used tariffs to raise our government spending, and therefore there was no need of income tax until we backed off of the tariffs. Then we had to go to an income tax in order to cover the government spending.

I know it’s a lot of information that we’ve beat around, but you can see that it’s kind of a wait and see. We haven’t had big tariffs for many, many years. Probably 40, 50 years since we’ve had any kind of a tariff situation or a tariff issue. We’re marching at a new territory.

When will interest rates come down? They’re going to come down when the Fed decides that the economy is in trouble. We need to lower interest rates in order to encourage spending, so you can see it’s kind of a what if type thing, depending upon what the economy does that will decide whether or not interest rates are going to come down.

Are we going to have a recession? Well, depending upon what kind of recession we’re talking about. Are we talking about just a reduction or slowing in GDP? Do you call that a recession? Well, if you’re more liberal, you’re going to call that a recession. If you’re more conservative, you’re going to say, “No, that’s just a natural slowing. That happens on normal business cycles, which occurs every three to five years.” So, everybody is going to be painting the picture that they want to make everybody understand what they believe is what’s going on in the economy.

I don’t think the recession is going to be terrible. There is going to be a slowdown, if you want to call it a recession. That’s what recess means. Recess means to slow down. Are we going to go into a depression? I don’t think that’s the case because we’ve got too many levers we can pull to prevent a depression. So anyway, that’s a short tutorial on the state of the economy, Rob.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, you covered a lot of territory there. Very interesting stuff. It’s a time in our history really where that stuff, it’s important today, and it’s going to be important for the rest of the year as things fluctuate. We don’t know what other countries are going to do. We don’t know how the tariffs will change things with some countries and how it will change things with us in some areas. It would be interesting to listen to what your take is throughout this year. We’ll try to do this more often. So, join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and your comments are always welcome.

Ray Zinn: Hit me with an email on toughthingsfirst.com. I’ll be happy to answer them if you have further questions. If you would like to see more detail on this subject, please feel free to let us know. We’re happy to revisit this discussion. In fact, we’ll do it every quarter. So, if you chime in every quarter, we’re going to give an update on the economy.

Rob Artigo: Follow Ray Zinn on his X, Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, Ray’s books. You’ve got to pick them up. Tough Things First is the big one, his first book. As you know, there is the Zen of Zinn Series 1, 2, and 3. On sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up The Essential Leader. Thanks a lot, Ray.

Ray Zinn: You’re welcome, Rob.

Rob Artigo: Now announcing, The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn. 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up The Essential Leader. Watch for it as it arrives at your favorite retailers in paperback and digital format. It’ll be everywhere by the official launch date, March 12th. That’s The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn. Don’t miss it. Thank you for listening to the Tough Things First podcast.

Do we live in a culture that promotes comparisons to others? Is it jealously, envy? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says keeping up with trends may be healthy, but keeping up with the Jones’s may be a problem.

Rob Artigo: I recently read a quote where the writer said he had not met a person on the planet who did not compare themselves to others. He pointed out that we live in a society that perpetuates comparison at every turn, from social media and magazines to commercial ads and perhaps even the car sitting in the driveway at the neighbor’s house. It’s almost impossible not to find a potential trigger of comparison right in front of your eyes. That was authored. Davin Salvagno wrote at length about it.

So first, do you agree that we live in a society that perpetuates comparison at a return?

Ray Zinn: Yes and no. We look at hairstyles, we look at clothing styles, we look at car styles, whatever. We do kind of follow along with the trend, and so that’s a comparison, as you would, because we’re looking at how others are dressing, how others are doing their homes. I remember we used to, when I was early, young, married, we had a shag carpet and no one has a shag carpet today or-

Rob Artigo: Yeah, that’s true. I remember those.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, or the kind of furniture that we have, we try to stay up-to-date with what’s trendy, as you would.

Rob Artigo: That’s Keeping Up with the Joneses’ scenario.

Ray Zinn: That’s the other part of the topic. Okay?

Rob Artigo: Okay.

Ray Zinn: So, we’re talking about now how we do a comparison other than Keeping Up with the Joneses. So it’s not necessarily Keeping Up with the Joneses in the sense of the word that we’re going to talk about next, let’s just talk about comparing ourselves with the trends. In other words-

Rob Artigo: Gotcha.

Ray Zinn: … we want to make sure we’re not wearing the wide tie if the narrow ties are in or we make sure we’re not doing a pompadour hairdo if more of the short hair or whatever kind of haircut. The big style right now is beards on men. I’ve never had a beard, and so when I do the comparison, I compare myself to myself, this is who I am. I don’t wear a beard, and so I am not a beard-type guy. I’m not mocking at people who do have beards, I’m just saying that’s not my thing, but that’s a comparison again. I’m not comparing me against them. I’m comparing myself against myself. That was my goal. My desire is to not have facial hair, and that gets us into the second part of our topic is how we compare ourselves against the Joneses.

So if you’re trying to keep up with the Joneses, that’s a different part. That requires a different view. That’s called envy, E-N-V-Y. Envy that’s the part of it, and that’s the negative part of comparison. If we’re comparing ourselves against the Joneses, then we’re being envious because now we’re just trying to up one, be better than somebody else, the bigger car, the bigger house, the whatever, the fancier this, the fancier, oh, I got this, I got an airplane. You just drive around a little Volkswagen or whatever. Those are the bad kinds of comparisons where we are comparing ourselves against the Joneses. I’m opposed to that. I like to stay up-to-date, but I’m not comparing myself against the Joneses. I’m just looking at the trends and trying to stay within the trends.

Now, some of them I like, some of them I don’t like, so I’m not a, what you would say is I’m not necessarily a full-blown trendy. I don’t go along with everything, all the trends that are. I do the ones that I want to go along with. Again, I’m comparing myself to myself. What do I want? What’s my goal? What do I like to be like or look like? So again, the comparison should not be against the Joneses. The comparison should be against who you are and who you want to be. That’s the main goal.

Rob Artigo: The style thing is a perfect example, but also if you are one of those people who compares themselves to others’ levels of success, you can say, “Look, that’s what I would like to achieve,” that’s a good kind of comparison in the area that you were talking about versus, “I envy that person because they’re doing it, but yet I’m not doing anything to achieve that level of success.” Right?

Ray Zinn: Yeah. If you’re out there trying to impress people and how great and how wonderful you are, how beautiful or handsome or whatever, that’s doing it for the wrong reason. The right reason is comparing yourself to what you want to be, not comparing yourself to others and trying to beat your chest and say how wonderful or great you are, “Oh, I went to Harvard,” or “I went to Stanford,” maybe you went to San Jose State, like I did. I don’t look down on that. I looked at it as great, but I know others, “Yeah, where’d you get your degree?” “Oh, I went to Harvard. I went to Stanford, or I went to Berkeley,” or whatever. That’s the wrong kind of approach. Again, you have to look at where you want to be compared to where you’re going and what you want to accomplish.

Rob Artigo: You look at the titles on what people put on their walls behind their desks and that’s one thing that’s establishing your credit, if you will, your credibility and also displaying something that you’re proud of, but it’s a different thing to, in conversation, put somebody else’s degree down because it wasn’t an Ivy League degree or something like that. Just ends up being, it reflects poorly on you.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. I think that’s the key is that if you’re hanging your shingle up just to impress others, then you’re doing it for the wrong reason. You were trying to impress yourself, not impressing others. Compare yourself to yourself, here I am, here’s where I want to be, and here’s where I’m going, as opposed to, “Oh, so-and-so is accomplishing this, so-and-so is accomplishing that. Look at this leader or that leader and what they managed to have accomplished” whether you’re the richest man in the world like Elon Musk or whether you’re the President of the United States like Donald Trump, don’t do that comparison. Look at where you are and where you’re going. Maybe you’re just a hairdresser or maybe you work as a clerk in a grocery store. If that’s where you want to be, if that’s where you’re headed, then great, but don’t compare yourself to Donald Trump or to Elon Musk. Try to be who you want to be, not be who you thought somebody else is.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. Toughthingsfirst.com, that’s where the listeners need to go if they want to continue the conversation. Comments and questions are welcome there. Follow Ray on X and Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, and as you’ve been told, the Zen of Zinn series is also available, and that’s one, two and three on sale now, The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn: 10 Skills, Attributes and fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader.

Thank you, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

You may have heard that a failure to plan is nothing more than a plan to fail. Ray Zinn puts his hard earned life experience out there and proves what you get if you fail to plan is a pipe-dream and surefire disappointment.

Rob Artigo: Good to be back. You have a series of books. You have Zen of Zinn one, two and three, and I picked up Zen of Zinn one and went to page 110, and I found this particular writing, which I thought was interesting. It was thought-provoking and I thought made a worthy podcast. You wrote, “The difference between a goal and a plan is that a goal is what we want to accomplish, and a plan is the way we accomplish the goal. Many of us have goals, but no plan to accomplish their goals. A goal without a plan is just wishful thinking.” And also you’ve said, and you wrote in your book, The Essential Leader, “That a goal without a plan is not a plan.”

Ray Zinn: They call it a pipe dream, Rob.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. Where does this come from? I mean, we’re in business and various leadership roles and throughout our lives we had to do different things, but the goal changes at times. The way to achieve the goal doesn’t change, right?

Ray Zinn: That’s interesting. Let’s just go back to when I started my company. So my goal was to run my own company. That was my goal. I mean, I wanted to start a company to see if I could make it successful, and so that was my goal. But then I said, “Okay, so now what kind of company do I want to found, do I want to start?” And so I tried about three or four different things to start my company. So my plan was then to get it started and to come up with a product. So I did that. That one didn’t work out. So then I scrapped that one and I went to another one and that one didn’t work out. And I said, “Scrap that one.” As I said, I tried four different approaches before I got one that really was successful. You would say, “Well, wow, your goal was to start a company and you did that, but your plan evidently wasn’t all that successful because you had to do four different companies before you got one that worked.”

Well, that’s the way sometimes things work. If I married the first girl I dated, I’d be a polygamist today. So we do things by trying. If you just have a goal without an effort to try to do something that becomes, like I said, a pipe dream. In other words, you’re just wishful thinking. Even though it may not be successful, you want to move forward, you want to set forth an effort that will result in you either learning that that’s not a good one or that is a good one, and so that you can build on it.

When I started those four companies, I thought each one of them was going to be a success. Just like when I said dating again, I thought my first date, that’s the girl I’m going to marry kind of thing. But I’ve dated hundreds of girls, and so you find out that not necessarily the first girl you date is the one you’re going to marry. And so it’s the same thing with starting a company. You might find out that the first company you start is not necessarily the one you’re going to marry. I kept trying and trying and trying, and then I finally ended up with one that I could bring forth success.

Rob Artigo: Well, yeah, you’re talking about in business, in jobs, in life, so in managing your life, goals are everything. And then having a plan, and you had a plan going into, as you were getting older, aging into your late teens and you’re thinking about dating, you’re planning on your future. You had an idea of what you were going to do. You were going to date and find your way, but you were not going to settle for anything but what you really, really wanted. And so your goal was established with your plan, which was to make sure that you didn’t make a mistake and marry the first person that you met.

Ray Zinn: Well, I’ve been married for 64 years and so that took some effort to bring it together, but I finally found the right combination and that turned out to be successful. When I started Micrel, same thing. I didn’t know that we were going to last 37 years as a company, but I kept working at it and it became a success over time. Whereas the other three companies that I started, we could call them a divorce actually, as you would because I divorced myself from that idea and moved on to another one.

So it doesn’t mean that just because you’re not successful in your first idea, your approach means you’re not going to be successful in the long run. The whole purpose of this podcast is to talk about turning your dreams into a reality. Turn your dreams into a reality, so that becomes a success, whether it’s your first marriage, your second marriage, hopefully not more than two. You want to turn that relationship into a long-lasting one. Thank goodness I only been married once and married for 64 years, so that turned out to be successful, but I wanted it to succeed. Did we have any bumps in the road and any times when we thought we were upside down? Yeah, sure. But we overcome them. We straighten them out and move forward because we’re human and we make mistakes and we have to recover from those mistakes.

Rob Artigo: I think that attitude that you just described there is a good thing to have built into any plan, whether it’s for business or in life, is that be ready to expect ups and downs and the things that might help you survive those dips, if you will, right?

Ray Zinn: Well, and have the ability, for example, if you started a company that was going to take more money than you had then you obviously didn’t plan very well because you have to look at what you can afford as you move forward, whether it be a wife or a girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, you got to make sure you can afford what you’re going to do. And so taking off in a business venture without sufficient funds to see it to completion, that’s stupidity. So again, make sure you have the wherewithal to accomplish the goal that you’ve set for yourself.

Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray. Great conversation. And the listeners can join us at toughthingsfirst.com if they have questions or comments. Please follow Ray on X and on Facebook and also LinkedIn and check out Ray’s books, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three, and on sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.