As we continue our conversation about “Church After Mars Hill,” host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by guest Dr. Ron Ruthruff, Associate Professor of Theology and Culture at The Seattle School of Psychology and Theology.

When examining the story of Mars Hill, there exists an underexplored theme of race and Whiteness. In his book "After Whiteness," Dr. Willie Jennings defines Whiteness as the embodiment of a self-sufficient man who embodies possession, mastery, and control. Driscoll's calls to White men tapped into not only male rage but also White rage, reflecting the desire for control and dominance. By exploring the missing elements in the Mars Hill discussion, our discussion aims to shed light on the intersection of Whiteness and the power dynamics within evangelical church culture.

Ron and Joel delve into the profound significance of addressing race and Whiteness within our systems, communities, and theological frameworks. They shed light on the far-reaching implications this exploration holds for the future of the church in a post-Mars Hill era. Through thought-provoking discussions, we’re challenged to move beyond the safety of homogeneity and embrace differences within our faith communities.

Listener resources:

• Read the transcript from today's episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast
• Check out some of the books and publications mentioned in this episode:  After Whiteness by Willie James Jennings / The Christian Imagination by Willie James Jennings / Can “White” People Be Saved: Reflections on Missions and Whiteness - a lecture from Willie James Jennings / Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin / Unsettling Truths: The Ongoing, Dehumanizing Legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery by Mark Charles and Soong-Chan Rah / The Wolf Shall Dwell with the Lamb by Eric Law / Sister Outsider: Essays and Speeches by Audre Lorde / The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin / My Grandmother’s Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies by Resmaa Menakem / Stamped from the Beginning: A Graphic History of Racist Ideas in America by Ibram X. Kendi and Joel Christian Gill  / Stand Your Ground: Black Bodies and the Justice of God by Kelly Brown Douglas
• If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

We continue our conversation about Church After Mars Hill with Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman, the Northwest Regional Leader of the Vineyard USA denomination and Associate Director at the Center for Transforming Engagement.

Dr. Swetman was previously interviewed for Christianity Today's podcast "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" in Episode 5, titled "The Things We Do to Women."

The discussion revolves around the exposed vision of Mark Driscoll, former pastor of Mars Hill, which revealed a patriarchal and toxic theology concerning the roles of men and women. Dr. Swetman shares her experience in providing pastoral care for individuals who had left Mars Hill and discusses the importance of building faith communities that promote mutuality.

Tune in as we explore ways to create faith communities that are inclusive and promote mutual respect among all members.

This season of the Transforming Engagement Podcast is a response to Christianity Today Media’s wildly popular podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. 

Hosted by contributor and pastor Joel Kiekintveld, we’re seeking to learn what we can from the case study that is Mars Hill Church in an effort to uncover what the church looks like after Mars Hill. After the destruction left by the collapse of that Seattle-based mega-church, the conversations in this podcast season are our offerings towards a rebuilding.

Listener resources:

• Read the transcript from today's episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast
• Check out some of the books that Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman references in this episode: The Apostle Paul and Women in the Church by Don Williams, The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Allison Barr, Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez, and Paul and Gender by Cynthia Long Westfall. You also may want to check out women's advocacy organizations, CBE International and The Junia Project.
• Click here to read Dr. Rose Madrid-Swetman’s interview with Andrea Sielaff, Program Evaluation Manager at Center for Transforming Engagement, after Rose’s appearance on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast.
• You can listen to Rose’s contributions to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill in episodes "The Things We Do To Women" and "The Bobby Knight Problem."
• If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

The term "deconstruction" is widely used in the Evangelical and post-Evangelical community, but what does it actually mean and what purpose does it serve? How does it relate to addressing the pain, anger, and disillusionment experienced in the wake of the fall of trusted leaders and churches like Mars Hill? Furthermore, how does it influence our relationship with institutions, communities, and our own spirituality?

In the first episode of this season, host Joel Kiekintveld engages in a conversation with Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President of The Seattle School for Theology and Psychology and co-founder of the Center for Transforming Engagement. With his unique perspective as a leader of a faith-centered institution in Seattle, Derek sheds light on the cyclic process of deconstruction and rebuilding at the institutional level, within our communities, and in our own faith journeys.

This season of the Transforming Engagement Podcast is a response to Christianity Today Media’s wildly popular podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. 

As listeners of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, we could take two approaches: one as a mere observation of a captivating soap opera, providing voyeuristic pleasure through the shocking and scandalous true story of Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. The other option is to utilize it as an opportunity for introspection, allowing us to examine our own involvement in personality-driven spirituality and dysfunctional church systems, seeking lessons from Mars Hill's downfall to shape our future.

Hosted by contributor and pastor Joel Kiekintveld, we’re seeking to learn what we can from the case study that is Mars Hill Church in an effort to uncover what the church looks like after Mars Hill. After the destruction left by the collapse of that Seattle-based mega-church, the conversations in this podcast season are our offerings towards a rebuilding.

• Read the transcript from this episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast
• If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

In this final episode of our Clergy Burnout series, co-hosts Dr. J. Derek McNeil and Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, revisit the many rich conversations they’ve had with our guests this season and highlight some of the key takeaways for pastors and leaders. We hope these conversations have supported you as you strive to understand the identity and purpose of your faith community in the midst of changing contexts.

Thank you for listening! As you engage with these podcast episodes, we’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas for future topics you’d like to hear us engage. You can send your feedback to us at [email protected].

This week we’re talking to Bishop Melissa Skelton, who currently serves as Bishop Provisional for the Diocese of Olympia. In our conversation, we look at understanding the identity of your church, not only at the level of your local congregation but within your denomination or your greater faith tradition. Bishop Skelton highlights the importance of understanding the heritage and origin story of your congregation and your denomination, and how to sift through stories from the past to discern which are useful to telling our stories now. 

When you set out to determine your organization’s identity, there are a few key questions to ask yourself that go beyond your mission or vision statements. This week, we’re joined by CEO and founder of Motis, Rick Beaton, PhD. 

Rick brings his expertise in people, culture, leadership and management, corporate identity, belief systems, and social psychology to provide a framework for taking an honest look at your organization to discover its internal and external identity.

Each week, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing good in the world. Rick calls our attention to West Texas Counseling & Guidance, a group that provides mental health services to underprivileged people at scale in northwest Texas and into New Mexico. You can learn more about supporting their work here: https://www.sanangelocounseling.org/

Kate and Derek are joined by longtime friend, Linda Wagener, PhD, who is the Chief Culture Officer at Blink. With over 35 years of experience in organizational leadership, training, and research, her role with Blink is to build a resilient work culture that enhances employee engagement and productivity.

Linda’s expertise in cultivating and preserving a values-centered and unified workplace culture can be applied across organizational types. If you are in church leadership, we think you’ll discover some fundamentals to glean from a corporate setting and apply to your church organization.

Each week, we ask our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good in the world. Linda calls our attention to US Fish and Wildlife, the federal government agency whose primary responsibility is to manage fish and wildlife resources in the public trust for people today and future generations. You can learn more about supporting their work through the volunteer opportunities on their website.

Welcome back to Episode 2 of Season 3 of Transforming Engagement, The Podcast. This season, we’re talking about organizational identity and the role of the leader.

In this episode, we spoke with Pastor Gail Song Bantum about her identity as a second-generation Korean woman and as a pastor and leader, and Quest’s identity as a congregation in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle. As a leader of a “multi church,” Gail Song Bantum describes how her identity impacts her congregation’s identity and, in turn, how it is understood both by congregation members and the community at large.

In each episode, we ask our guest to highlight an organization that is doing work. Gail Song Bantum brought our attention to Good Foot Arts Collective, an organization with a passionate focus on ending violence before it begins, providing domestic abuse awareness and youth violence prevention advocacy through Arts Education. 

We’re starting a new series on the podcast about organizational identity - a topic that, co-host Dr. J. Derek McNeil admits at the beginning of this episode - can sound somewhat dry. But here’s why it’s important:

Most of us have some sense of our personal identities. But when you’re leading a group of people, whether that’s a small town congregation or a multinational corporation, you as a leader need to consider your group’s collective identity. 

When a group discovers their organizational identity, its members can unite behind a common purpose and shared goals to confront problems, engage challenges, and make real impact – together. 

In this first episode of Season 3, Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, and Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement, discuss their work in supporting churches in their work to discover their organizational identity. In the midst of shifting contexts, this work is more important than ever. What is the mission of your church? What are you called to be? Who belongs to your church - and how are you creating a sense of belonging for them?

If you are the leader of a church or faith-based organization working to re-discover your church’s identity and serve your congregants and community better, we think this episode will be especially valuable to you. 

As you listen to this season, please let us know what you think. We value your thoughts and questions!

Pastors, we hope today’s theme of vulnerability resonates with you. In this mini-episode, you’ll hear wise words from Dr. Jessica Young Brown, Donnell Wyche, Karlene Clark, Martha Wood, and Trevor Grindle. You can get the links to these full episodes on our website at transformingengagement.org/podcast