Two for Tea Podcast

General

Follow Arjun on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/juicemoorthy

The Factual:

https://www.thefactual.com/?lp=new

References

Matthew Walker’s ‘Why We Sleep’:

https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144324/

Timestamps

00.00 Opening and intro. The Factual: credibility grading of news articles/stories.

2:33 The Factual’s history, its mission and ethos, its process of evaluating articles/stories, and the technology behind it.

6:25 Iona on Areo and the foundation of all good commentary—the facts. Opinion/commentary vs. news reporting. Arjun: The Factual’s algorithm and AI tries to ensure that commentary is scored according to how well-grounded in fact it is.

9:00 How the technology behind The Factual works and the methodology of assigning rankings to the four different categories that The Factual rates to come up with an overall credibility score for a piece.

13:51 The conflation of credibility with popularity in science and news. The “herd mentality” in news. Plus: why The Factual’s algorithm can’t tell you if something is true or false, only if a piece has characteristics that mark it as credible and factual—it provides a rubric, with rules of thumb, applicable with or without the algorithm. Ultimately: no easy answers to big issues in the news.

19:59 A discussion of the adversarial nature of politics—does this give it an advantage over (mostly popular) science because everything is “subjected to a ferocious scrutiny” (Iona) by political opponents with vested interests? Pros and cons of this. Challenging popular narratives in science and politics. Adversarialism in politics and journalism.

24:49 Arjun’s father and the simple, core principle of The Factual’s algorithm: read multiple sources/viewpoints. Give people the tools to decide for themselves. The Factual’s commenting methodology. How to cure polarisation.

29:42 The perils of internet discourse in the social media age: Facebook comments and the end of friendships and the flaws of the Twitter algorithm. An age of polarisation and bitter division, online and offline. How can The Factual help us move beyond this?

34:20 Why are people interested in the news? Why is knowing the news and reading good journalism good for people? Where did Arjun’s interest in the news come from? Why reading the news should be enjoyable rather than anxiety/anger-inducing. Why news shouldn’t take over your life. The Factual’s business model.

41:23 Metric obsession and how The Factual is different.

45:21 Arjun’s colleague Alex and the importance of double-checking and questioning the algorithm.

47:07 The erosion of free speech—big tech algorithms, social media, and censorship. How we all engage in curation and why curation is better than censorship. How best to deal with cranks and mis/disinformation—and how the tech giants get it wrong. The poisoning of discourse by cancel culture and how social media enables cancel culture.

1:00:34 Polarisation and the continual subdivision of people into smaller and smaller groups and the effects of all this on public discourse. Twitter is NOT representative of the world. Why a multiplicity of platforms is good and why we must learn how to best use them.

1:04:43 How does Arjun think news might be consumed in the future, or how does he hope it will be consumed?

1:09:09 Last words and outro.

Visit Oliver’s website:

https://www.oliverburkeman.com/

Follow Oliver on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/oliverburkeman

Oliver’s most recent book ‘Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals’:

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Thousand-Weeks-Management-Mortals/

Oliver’s book ‘The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can’t Stand Positive Thinking’:

https://www.amazon.com/Antidote-Oliver-Burkeman-author/

Oliver’s book ‘HELP!: How to Become Slightly Happier and Get a Bit More Done’:

https://www.amazon.com/HELP-Become-Slightly-Happier-More-ebook/

References

Samuel Johnson’s 1751 essay on procrastination, ‘Idleness and anxious and miserable state’:

https://www.johnsonessays.com/the-rambler/no-134-on-procrastination/

Iona’s Letter correspondence with Nir Eyal on technology and distraction:

https://letter.wiki/conversation/266

Nir’s book ‘Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life’:

https://www.amazon.com/Indistractable-Control-Your-Attention-Choose/

Visakan Veeraswamy’s appearance on Two for Tea:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/76-visakan-veerasamy-a-friendly-ambitious-nerd

Ethan Strauss’s article ‘Pity the Zoomer Athlete’:

https://houseofstrauss.substack.com/p/pity-the-zoomer-athlete?s=r

‘How to Live on 24 Hours a Day’ by Arnold Bennett:

https://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Hours-Day-Literature-ebook

The Pomodoro Technique:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique

Timestamps

00.00 Opening and introduction.

1:47 Iona reads from Samuel Johnson’s 1751 essay on procrastination, ‘Idleness and anxious and miserable state’. How it relates to Oliver’s book ‘Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals’.

8:45 Procrastination as a timeless phenomenon, though technology and social media make it worse. Our desire to “not focus”.

9:46 A précis of ‘Four Thousand Weeks’. What leads us astray in our relationship with time? Do we try to avoid the unpleasantness of “finitude” - the knowledge that our time is limited? Are we just trying to avoid discomfort?

14:15 The feeling of “irreparable loss” when we waste time - and the cycle of feeling guilt at this, thus leading to more avoidance and procrastination. How do we navigate this cycle of distraction?

20:53 What is the escape from this cycle? Is there one? Or must we just accept its absurdity to gain liberation?

24:29 The pleasures of doing versus the pleasures of having done (dance vs academia). Do we vacate value from the present to the future? And: a diversion on the proprietary and Nir Eyal on distraction. How has our attention changed over the decades and centuries - has it gotten better or worse?

39:01 Is the self a “road to hell”? Self-improvement and efficiency vs absorption in something larger. Is the self overrated?

44:00 The problem with productivity hacks and self-improvement. The real route to freedom. One of Iona’s mantras: you don’t have to wait until tomorrow.

50:10 On neglecting the right things.

52:24 On FOMO, being a generalist vs a specialist, and trade-offs.

1:01:35 More on procrastination and how to beat it: theory vs practice. The Pomodoro Technique, setting maximums, and more. But beware: never think of such exercises as allowing you to transcend limitation - this is impossible.

1:07:47 Oliver reads a passage from ‘Four Thousand Weeks’.

1:10:42 Last words and outro.

General

Buy Matt and Alina Chan’s book ‘Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19’:

https://www.amazon.com/Viral-Search-COVID-19-Matt-Ridley/dp/006313912X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1GSU5N0P40R26&keywords=matt+ridley&qid=1648046232&sprefix=matt+ridley%2Caps%2C253&sr=8-1

Matt’s website, where you can find out more about him and his other books and work:

https://www.mattridley.co.uk/

Follow Matt on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/mattwridley

References

Some of Michael Worobey’s work on the origins of Covid-19:

https://twitter.com/MichaelWorobey/status/1497607313397481472?s=20&t=_ov6duwWi7DQZDRa5t9q4A

Two for Tea episode with Azra Raza on fighting cancer:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/64-azra-raza-a-better-way-to-fight-cancer

Two for Tea episode with Brian D. Earp on circumcision:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/13-brian-earp

Iona’s Areo article on circumcision:

https://areomagazine.com/2019/09/24/a-wrong-against-boys-an-impossible-conversation-about-circumcision/

Timestamps

00.00 Opening and introduction: the debate over the origins of Covid-19, the reception of and controversy over ‘Viral’, and why the origins debate matters for everyone.

8:40 Will the origins debate ever be settled?

18:58 What we know for certain plus some possible scenarios of how Covid-19 spread. Matt explains why the ‘lab-leak’ hypothesis is plausible.

25:28 Objections to the lab-leak hypothesis and Matt’s responses.

42:30 Here be technical scientific stuff: the cutting edge of knowledge in molecular biology—how furin cleavage sites work. Plus: the duties of writing about science.

49:25 More objections to the lab-leak hypothesis and Matt’s responses.

1:11:50 The benefits and risks of gain-of-function research. Plus: circumcision and the problems with the World Health Organization.

1:21:32 Does ‘Viral’ underestimate the dangers of zoonotic transmission of diseases? Plus: the deforestation/ecological argument about Covid’s origins.

1:24:31 Developments since the publication of ‘Viral’ and the plans for the paperback.

1:27:50 Last words and outro.

General

Alex’s website:

https://alexkorbphd.com/

Follow Alex on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/alexkorbphd

Buy Alex’s book ‘The Upward Spiral: Using Neuroscience to Reverse the Course of Depression, One Small Change at a Time’:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1626251207/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=gs2&linkId=TQYPHQ6B534LQ4PZ&creativeASIN=1626251207&tag=alexkorbphd-21&creative=9325&camp=1789

Buy Alex’s book ‘The Upward Spiral Workbook: A Practical Neuroscience Program for Reversing the Course of Depression’:

https://www.amazon.com/Upward-Spiral-Workbook-Neuroscience-Depression/dp/1684032423/ref=sr_1_3?qid=1647360558&refinements=p_27%3AAlex+Korb&s=books&sr=1-3

References

Iona’s book ‘Our Tango World Vol. 1’:

https://www.amazon.com/Our-Tango-World-vol-1-Community/dp/1999755189/ref=sr_1_1?crid=33Z83DRW14VH6&keywords=iona+italia&qid=1647360598&s=books&sprefix=iona+itali%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C130&sr=1-1

Iona’s book ‘Our Tango World Vol. 2’:

https://www.amazon.com/Our-Tango-World-vol-2-Milonga/dp/1999755197/ref=pd_sim_1/138-2548482-3504021?pd_rd_w=slzAZ&pf_rd_p=dee70060-7c6d-4721-a321-50a27281cd22&pf_rd_r=J6DTTMK1E0GSZSFYK31S&pd_rd_r=7df296cd-2d08-40e6-8586-2af4d7b9472c&pd_rd_wg=KEJIt&pd_rd_i=1999755197&psc=1

Timestamps

00.00 Opening and introduction.

1:57 How Alex became interested in neuroscience, addiction, and depression.

4:44 Alex’s own experiences with depression and the nature of depression. Depression, diagnosis, and the brain.

13:16 Why we should stop obsessing over the diagnosis of depression and start treating diagnosis as a starting-off point to do something about the issue. Depression as a continuum. Iona’s experiences of depression.

21:59 The artificial distinction between “real chemical depression” and “situational depression” and how life experiences affect you at the level of the brain. Why medication is just one of many ways to combat depression.

27:01 A discussion of the relationship between life circumstances and depression.

42:16 The small, positive steps one can take to overcome depression and find fulfilment.

45:11 Iona’s two different forms of pleasure/satisfaction (of doing and of having done) and ensuing discussion on how individuals’ brains differ.

52:37 On the tools and habits that will help you gain greater fulfilment (and a diversion on sharing the same lab as Sam Harris).

1:02:11 The benefits and hazards of faking it till you make it when it comes to depression. Taking actions rather than being hamstrung by feelings.

1:10:13 Some questions for Alex from listeners. Is depression evolutionarily adaptive? Does anti-depressant medication lead to long-term dependency? How would you reach out to a friend who has withdrawn into depression?

1:21:39 What does Alex think is the most underrated thing a person who is depressed can do to help themselves?

1:23:55 Last words and outro.

General

Follow Nicholas on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/NAChristakis

The Human Nature Lab at Yale University, of which Nicholas is the director:

https://www.humannaturelab.net/

Buy Nicholas’ books, including his latest, ‘Apollo’s Arrow: The Profound and Enduring Impact of Coronavirus on the Way We Live’:

https://www.amazon.com/kindle-dbs/entity/author/B001HCYWRM?_encoding=UTF8&node=283155&offset=0&pageSize=12&searchAlias=stripbooks&sort=author-sidecar-rank&page=1&langFilter=default#formatSelectorHeader

References

Nicholas’ previous appearance on the podcast:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/25-nicholas-christakis-a-blueprint-for-universal-liberal-humanism

Timestamps

0.00 Opening and introduction.

2:10 The history of plagues and the typical three-phase cycle (immediate, intermediate, and post-pandemic) of respiratory pandemics—and how Covid has conformed to that pattern. Have we reached “the end of the beginning” (i.e. the end of the immediate phase) rather than “the beginning of the end” of this pandemic? What will the intermediate and post-pandemic phases look like? What if there is a new, vaccine-resistant, more lethal variant?

11:36 Is the lifting of all Covid restrictions in England premature? How vaccination/exposure rates affect whether or not it is wise to lift restrictions.

18:22 What might the long term effects of infection with Covid be? Could there be long term disabling effects on those who survive a Covid infection? What are Nicholas’ views on “long Covid”?

23:34 How effective are masks in preventing Covid infection/transmission?

28:34 Which countries have been worst affected by the pandemic? Why?

31:06 Which countries fared best? Why?

36:41 Whence distrust in health authorities during the pandemic? How should public health messaging be communicated? Plus: how Covid hit us at an already very vulnerable moment and exploited pre-existing social, cultural, and economic issues. How should we encourage vaccination uptake?

48:36 The psychological impacts of pandemics, historically and today: the search for meaning in religion, politics, and more.

52:35 How has Nicholas’ own life changed because of the pandemic? Plus: biological vs social endings of pandemics.

56:38 Last words and outro.

General

Discover Rob’s writing, interviews, and other work on his website:

https://www.robkhenderson.com/

Follow Rob on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/robkhenderson

References

Rob’s essay ‘America's Lost Boys and Me’:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/americas-lost-boys-and-me

Rob’s essay ‘Elite universities should stop prizing victimhood’:

https://unherd.com/thepost/elites-universities-should-stop-prizing-victimhood/

Timestamps

00.00 Opening and introduction.

1:45 Rob’s difficult upbringing and background: foster care, adoption, drugs, and alcohol.

6:59 Why social, emotional, and cultural variables matter enormously for kids’ life outcomes—it’s not all about economics.

16:00 More on Rob’s personal background and how it has informed his views; Iona reads from Rob’s article ‘America's Lost Boys and Me’.

24:47 What were the “lingering effects” of his upbringing on Rob? How his military experience helped him.

28:05 Iona’s “more common or garden unhappy childhood” as related to Rob’s upbringing and its effects on him. Some experiences and feelings in common,

32:18 Iona and Rob’s very different experiences of university life. Plus: the ‘controversy’ around one of Rob’s teachers, Erika Christakis, and the origin of his concept of “luxury beliefs.”

41:53 Rob explains his concept of “luxury beliefs.” Signalling one’s status as an elite: one can afford to worry about relatively trivial transgressions and impose such taboos on poorer people; their jobs are less worthy of concern than sticking to the elite’s ever-changing taboos. Storms over “cultural appropriation”, use of the n-word, and using the OK hand symbol. Why cancel culture is real for blue-collar people. Middle-class ignorance of working-class people and the classism of cancel culture and luxury beliefs.

56:32 Rob’s examples of luxury belief: all family structures are equal, downplaying the value of hard work and agency. Is being anti-vax a luxury belief?

1:03:13 Iona on the flip-side to downplaying hard luck: some successful people won’t admit to the role of luck in their success and some hard work is thwarted by bad luck. Further discussion.

1:08:24 Discussion of the stable two-parent family structure as an ideal and why that idea receives pushback (and how such pushback is akin to arguments over ‘fatphobia’). Discussion of Iona’s caveats about the desirability of the stable two-parent family structure: stability isn’t everything (consider a stable but miserable situation).

1:15:47 Has Rob noticed different atmospheres in the U.K. vs. the U.S. regarding wokeness and luxury beliefs in university culture? What is the future of wokeness? The case of Jordan Peterson and Cambridge.

1:22:05 Rob’s article ‘Elite universities should top prizing victimhood’ and the case of Mackenzie Fierceton. Victimhood, disadvantage, and suffering as cultural currency in higher education. Plus: Iona and Rob’s experiences and views of the university admissions process.

1:33:32 Iona’s experiences of being accused of having had a privileged upbringing. A discussion of the narrowness of the concept of privilege as it is usually used today. How most people can frame their life stories either as ones of privilege or suffering. How prizing victimhood creates perverse incentives: the Mackenzie Fierceton story.

1:39:06 Race, victimhood, woke gatekeeping/race games, and gaming the system.

1:43:36 Last words and outro.

General

Follow Alan on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/alan_davison

Alan’s academic profile:

https://profiles.uts.edu.au/Alan.Davison

Alan and Josh Szeps’ special speaker podcast series ‘Permission to Think’ homepage:

https://www.uts.edu.au/about/faculty-arts-and-social-sciences/partners-and-community/fass-industry-events/permission-think

Josh Szeps’ podcast series ‘Uncomfortable Conversations’, of which ‘Permission to Think’ is under the aegis:

https://play.acast.com/s/uncomfortable-conversations-with-josh-szeps/

References

Josh Szeps’ appearance on ‘Two for Tea’:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/18-josh-szeps

Interview with Alan in the ‘Times Higher Education’:

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/people/interview-alan-davison?mc_cid=4b6d8a0b62&mc_eid=1347a1c1c0

‘Two for Tea’ episode with Jesse Singal:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/84-jesse-singal-the-quick-fix-public-limited-version

‘Trans Ideology and the New Ptolemaism in the Academy’ by Kathleen Rowley in ‘Archives of Sexual Behavior’:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-01950-9

‘Should You Trust the Myers-Briggs Personality Test?’ by Laith Al-Shawaf in ‘Areo Magazine’:

https://areomagazine.com/2021/03/09/should-you-trust-the-myers-briggs-personality-test/

‘Two for Tea’ episode with Tomiwa Owolade:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/85-tomiwa-owolade-racial-cultural-kaleidoscopes-public-limited-version

Alan’s paper ‘A Darwinian Approach to Postmodern Critical Theory: Or, How Did Bad Ideas Colonise the Academy?’ in ‘Society’:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12115-020-00505-3

Alan’s paper ‘Multiculturalism, Social Distance and “Islamophobia”: Refections on Anti‑racism Research in Australia and Beyond’ in ‘Society’:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12115-021-00641-4

‘Two for Tea’ episode with Jonathan Rauch:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/93-jonathan-rauch-in-defence-of-truth-public-limited-version

Timestamps

00.00 Opening and introduction.

2:36 Iona reads from Alan’s interview in the ‘Times Higher Education’ about the problems he sees in academia and asks him about the problem of ‘wokery’ in academia and how it has affected his own institution, wider society, and academic science/tech.

6:45 Specific examples of wokery infecting academia: diversity training, no-go research areas, and censorship. Wokery within Alan’s own discipline of music.

11:45 What is going wrong in Australian universities? The example of implicit bias training, based on the discredited implicit association test, being used in higher education.

16:02 Cultish mindsets in academia and the discouragement of scepticism.

18:25 The corporatisation and marketisation of academia. The “perfect storm”: the combination of identity politics and brand/risk-aware corporatisation in academia.

22:12 How is the culture of diversity training affecting universities?

26:30 Is testing for implicit bias simply workplace totalitarianism? The ‘who you are’ over ‘what you do/say’ mindset. Clumsy and counterproductive attempts to measure injustice and “redress the balance.” ‘Representation’ in music, particularly orchestral music. Does dealing with economic inequalities earlier in the ‘pipeline’ matter more?

40:30 Socioeconomic and cultural factors in inequalities.

44:25 Discussions of Alan’s evolutionary psychological/memetic approaches to understanding the success and influence of postmodern critical theory and Iona’s view that tribalism is a universal heuristic, including in the ‘anti-woke’ circle. Alan: “Resist the heuristic!” The risk of orthodoxy taking over.

1:00:46 What universities should be and the decline of public trust in higher education. Alan’s defence of universities. What are the risks to universities?

1:11:00 How has the atmosphere on campus changed since Alan began his academic career?

1:12:10 Last words and outro.

General

Find out more about Meghan, her books, and articles, on her website:

https://www.meghandaum.com/

Follow Meghan on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/meghan_daum

Buy Meghan’s book ‘The Problem With Everything: My Journey Through The New Culture Wars’:

https://www.meghandaum.com/the-problem-with-everything

Buy Meghan’s book ‘The Unspeakable: And Other Subjects Of Discussion’:

https://www.meghandaum.com/the-unspeakable

Listen to Meghan’s ‘The Unspeakable Podcast’:

https://www.theunspeakablepodcast.com/

References

Meghan’s novel ‘The Quality of Life Report’:

https://www.meghandaum.com/the-quality-of-life-report

The volume Meghan edited, ‘Selfish, Shallow & Self-Absorbed:

Sixteen Writers On The Decision Not To Have Kids’:

https://www.meghandaum.com/selfish-shallow-self-absorbed

Timestamps

0:58 Opening and introduction

1:55 Iona reads a passage from an essay in Meghan’s ‘The Unspeakable’ in aid of reflection upon the choice of subjects in non-fiction and the freedoms (and limits) the genre of the personal essay gives authors as opposed to memoirs and non-fiction. Including further discussion on Meghan’s experience with fiction-writing.

16:51 Meghan’s lack of fear in addressing difficult topics. Today’s atmosphere for public thinking compared to earlier in Meghan’s career. The very different reception accorded her most recent book ‘The Problem With Everything’ compared to her previous writings. The radical cultural shift since 2014/15/16: the rise of ‘social justice’ and the casting out of ‘the problematic.’

23:42 The origins of ‘The Problem With Everything’: the problem with contemporary feminism and the rise of the ‘badass’ trope. The “commodification of grievance” in recent years. How Meghan’s book expanded from a discussion of feminism to become a much broader study of the culture wars.

29:42 The rise of the race discourse to prominence in the culture wars. Are there unspoken tensions between modern feminism and anti-racism? Has race superseded gender/feminism as a culture war flashpoint? The rise of the ‘Karen.’ Where have all the thoughtful people gone? The hijacking of big issues by the least thoughtful among us.

35:05 Reflections on #MeToo. Has there been a “valorisation of victimhood”? Further reflections on the reception of ‘The Problem With Everything’ and the radical culture shift since c. 2014.

52:37 Where are the ‘edgy’ woke folk? Is there a risk of becoming obsessive about all of the woke inanity?

1:00:27 The politicisation of everything. The struggle not to constantly ‘harrumph.’ Can we avoid being angry with people rather than ideas? How much certainty should we have in our beliefs? How do we find a balance between being unapologetic and being epistemically humble? Why is it so difficult to say “I don’t know”?

1:08:10 The generational divide between those who grew up online and those who didn’t. Meghan’s view that hers is the last generation to have experienced an analogue world; her generation has gotten old/obsolete without being old; she sometimes feels closer to boomers decades older than her than millennials much closer to her age.

1:15:35 Iona reads from ‘The Problem With Everything’; a discussion on the role of women, childhood, and moral panics (child abductions, the Satanic panic, ‘the latchkey kid’) ensues. The tension between safety and freedom in our personal lives (particularly in women’s personal lives).

1:23:42 Iona’s feelings about Meghan’s ‘The Unspeakable’ book: how it affected her more personally than Meghan’s other books; the similarities she felt to Meghan’s description of being involved as a volunteer in foster care. Iona’s childhood relationship with her sister, who was a parent figure, growing up. Why Meghan and Iona couldn’t wait to be done with childhood. Plus: on not wanting to have kids.

1:37:22 How did Meghan’s serious freak illness and miraculous survival some years ago affect her views on life?

1:40:08 Last words and outro.

General

Jacob’s website:

http://jacobmchangama.com/

Order Jacob’s forthcoming book, ‘Free Speech: A History from Socrates to Social Media’:

https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/jacob-mchangama/free-speech/9781541620339/

Jacob’s podcast series on free speech, ‘Clear and Present Danger’:

http://www.freespeechhistory.com/

Follow Jacob on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/JMchangama

Discover more about Jacob’s think tank, Justitia:

http://justitia-int.org/

Timestamps

00:56 Iona introduces Jacob and his forthcoming book ‘Free Speech: A History from Socrates to Social Media’.

2:28 Iona reads some passages from Jacob’s book on the Nazis vs. free speech, including how Hitler hoisted the Weimar Republic by its own petard (or, why intolerance of intolerance doesn’t work).

17:21 Does censorship of bigoted and authoritarian ideas work to prevent such ideas from taking hold? The “Weimar fallacy.”

23:18 Free speech as the guarantor of freedom: Trump’s America compared to Putin’s Russia and Modi’s India.

31:44 The counterintuitive idea of free speech and its fragility in practice. “Milton’s Curse”—selectivity about free speech, even among its greatest historical champions, from Milton to Voltaire. The need for a strong culture of free speech (without which legal protections are almost meaningless).

36:30 Iona’s “footnote” on Milton, whose ‘Areopagitica’, of course, is the namesake of ‘Areo’. Why, despite Milton being an imperfect champion of free speech, ‘Areo’ is appropriately named! Plus: the history of free speech in Britain, the two ancient and competing conceptions of free speech (elitist and egalitarian), and Milton’s more radical-on-free-speech (and oft-neglected) Leveller contemporaries. The tragic irony of Milton becoming a censor. How Milton’s authorial intentions have been undercut by the radical implications of his arguments and the power of his language.

47:21 The historically influential antiquity-rooted elitist vs. egalitarian concepts of free speech (or, the Roman vs. Athenian concepts of free speech) and “elite panic” whenever a new form of disruptive and democratising communications technology, from the printing press and the radio to the internet and social media, arises.

54:50 On elite distrust of the lower classes—we can’t trust them with new communications technologies or free speech!

1:00:18 Is the contemporary “golden age of free speech” in a process of decline? Are we seeing a “global free speech recession” alongside a “democracy recession”? Rising authoritarianism and the worrying loss of faith in free speech (and internet freedom) in liberal democracies. Many on both right and left now seem to prefer purging ideas to debating them.

1:03:52 What can be done about the free speech recession? Taiwan’s tech-based g0v initiative—combatting disinformation and promoting new forms of democracy for the digital age without censorship. The tensions between the “Analogue City” and the “Digital City” and how we must find solutions for these without sacrificing free speech. Plus: how the lack of free speech in China made the Covid pandemic worse.

1:10:01 The worrying power of private social media and other internet companies over what we can say and hear. John Stuart Mill, George Grote, and the tyranny of the majority: the need for a culture of tolerance and openness to dissenting views. The problems with centralised platforms that are pretty much monopolies and the need for technological rather than legal solutions to these. The need for a “more decentralised social media ecosystem.”

1:16:30 Last words.

General

Nev’s website:

https://nevmarch.com/

Follow Nev on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/nevmarch

Buy Nev’s first novel ‘Murder in Old Bombay’ here:

https://read.macmillan.com/lp/murder-in-old-bombay/

Pre-order the sequel ‘Peril at the Exposition’ here:

https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250855039/perilattheexposition

The Rajabai Clock Tower deaths, upon which Nev’s novel is based:

https://www.livemint.com/Sundayapp/qrOhGQVncpDmnvio4RJx9O/The-mystery-of-the-clock-tower-deaths.html

Sample Vikas Adam’s reading of the book here:

https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Murder-in-Old-Bombay-Audiobook/1250775043

References

Sujata Massey:

https://sujatamassey.com/

Abir Mukherjee:

https://abirmukherjee.com/

Iona’s podcast with Dinyar Patel about the Indian independence pioneer Dadabhai Naoroji:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/99-dinyar-patel-dadabhai-naoroji-nationalist-pioneer

Nev’s account of visiting the Rajabai Clock Tower:

https://nevmarch.com/visit-to-the-tower

Interview with Nev by Marshal Zeringue, April 21 2021:

https://writerinterviews.blogspot.com/2021/04/nev-march.html

Sign up to Nazneen Engineer’s Zoroastrian survey:

https://survey.sogosurvey.com/survey1.aspx?k=RSsRQXYPPsTsPsPsP&lang=0

Timestamps

0:56 Introduction

3:04 Nev reads a passage from ‘Murder in Old Bombay’.

8:06 Nev discusses the historical details of the infamous Rajabai Clock Tower deaths and her knowledge of the story growing up. How the mysteriousness of the case intrigued her and inspired her to create a fictional detective and write a novel to ‘solve’ this old crime.

12:15 Nev’s love of the Sherlock Holmes stories and how this influenced her novel. Her other influences and the Easter eggs in the novel. Her protagonist, Captain Jim.

19:15 A comparison between Nev and other Raj-era historical fiction writers Sujata Massey and Abir Mukherjee.

24:33 Clashes of identity and problems of belonging in Nev’s novel, particularly around Parsi identity - and how this relates to Iona and Nev’s personal experiences. How dealing with such issues affected the novel.

32:29 Iona’s reading experience and Nev’s writing experience. The audio version of ‘Murder in Old Bombay’.

35:46 Nev’s style. The panoramic, cinematographic nature of Nev’s writing and scope. Comparison to Salman Rushdie - writers who span two cultures and who are concerned with hybridity.

37:27 Where/how did Nev plan and write the novel? Nev’s visit to the Rajabai Clock Tower and Iona’s memories of it from when she lived in Bombay.

45:22 Nev reads another passage from the book.

49:08 What did Nev mean when she said “Truly, we write to discover what we think” in an interview from last year? What did she discover she thought when writing her novel? Questions of identity and patriotism and Nev’s ‘middle ground’. Complexities and contradictions in human behaviour.

54:41 Good novels explore moments of tension and ambivalences in human nature.

55:40 Nev reads another passage from the book.

1:00:00 Iona reads a passage from the book.

1:05:50 Nev discusses the forthcoming sequel to ‘Murder in Old Bombay’, ‘Peril at the Exposition’. How the problems of the turn of the century period she sets her fiction in are reflected today. The types of historical events Nev is attracted to.

1:14:10 Nev reads another passage from the book.

1:19:50 Last words.