Two for Tea Podcast

Christopher’s website:

https://www.christopherjferguson.com/

Follow Christopher on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/CJFerguson1111

Christopher’s Amazon page, with links to his books, including ‘Moral Combat: Why the War on Violent Video Games Is Wrong’, ‘Suicide Kings’, and ‘How Madness Shaped History: An Eccentric Array of Maniacal Rulers, Raving Narcissists, and Psychotic Visionaries’:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Christopher-J-Ferguson/e/B0034NGO00/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_2

Christopher’s Substack:

https://grimoiremanor.substack.com/

Christopher’s Areo articles:

https://areomagazine.com/author/cjferguson1111/

References

Christopher’s article ‘My APA Resignation’ in Quillette:

https://quillette.com/2021/12/31/my-apa-resignation/

More on the ‘Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders

The Goldwater rule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldwater_rule

Timestamps

00.57 Introduction.

2:36 Christopher discusses the flaws of the American Psychological Association (APA) and his association with and resignation from it.

7:22 The new groupthink and monoculture among organisations and associations, including and specifically the APA, on ‘systemic/structural racism’: instead of focusing on their original missions, such theoretical and scientific organisations seem to be very focused on this newly fashionable issue (it is important to note that this is a separate issue from the truth or falsehood of systemic/structural racism itself). The problem of ‘institutional capture’.

12:39 The victory of politics and politicking (‘political correctness’) over scientific investigation. The flaws of the Implicit Association Test (IAT) and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) trainings: how the promulgation of these is based on business and profit rather than science.

16:52 Iona reads from Christopher’s Quillette piece on his resignation from the APA; discussion on the problem of political correctness over scientific integrity ensues, including how rapidly this has become an issue. How this will damage psychology and how it is perceived as a discipline.

21:58 The task of psychology, especially clinical psychology, with particular reference to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), versus this new consensus. Iona reads from Christopher’s ‘How Madness Shaped History’. Christopher discusses the problems, from a psychological point of view, with ‘lived experience’ and ‘safetyism’.

30:37 The differences between dealing with issues, both contentious and banal, on a societal level versus an individual, psychological level, with reference to sexual assault and obesity.

38:55 A discussion of more problems in psychology, with particular reference to the ‘Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders’.

49:12 How effective are pharmaceuticals in treating mental disorders such as depression, anxiety, and schizophrenia?

54:28 The bureaucracy of mental health care and the relation of problems like homelessness, criminal violence, and police shootings to mental health issues. Why we need to return to some kind of state-sponsored asylum-like system (but one which is humane and rational)

1:01:02 The connections between mental health problems and violence and why we are so hesitant to talk about these. How do we deal with such issues?

1:06:25 A discussion of science denialism and opportunism by ideologues on both left and right: people adopt scientific positions that support their views and ignore ones that contradict their views.

1:13:57 Political tribalism in the pandemic versus science (on all sides).

1:22:05 The Goldwater rule.

1:28:34 Last words.

Mónica’s Link Tree with links to preorder her upcoming book ‘I Never Thought Of It That Way’, her website, and more:

https://linktr.ee/moniguzman

Follow Mónica on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/moniguzman

Braver Angels website:

https://braverangels.org/

References

John R. Wood Jr’s previous appearances on Two for Tea:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/19-john-wood

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/58-john-r-wood-jr-and-roderick-graham-black-lives-and-the-george-floyd-protests

Buster Benson’s appearance on Two for Tea:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/57-buster-benson

Timestamps

3:05 Iona reads from Mónica’s upcoming book ‘I Never Thought Of It That Way’, leading to a discussion of the complexities of identity and expressing oneself and the temptation to use membership of certain groups as a shield in arguments.

12:53 Our interpersonal “internal assumption assistant”: positives and negatives.

14:38 Mónica’s lens when writing her book. What angle on polarisation and having better conversations does Mónica’s book have that other such books lack? The problem of “chaining.” “It’s all people.”

20:24 How our attitudes and beliefs arise from our particular experiences across time rather than rational cogitation. Why we must learn to ask where other people are coming from instead of arguing with people’s conclusions directly.

24:41 The process of changing minds: again, experiences and relationships matter most.

30:28 The benefits of listening to and learning from and being interested in other people. Mónica’s idea of “respect.” The importance of being curious and open. Mónica - reframing the way we interact with others.

36:55 The dangers of making assumptions about other people’s views when we interact with them. The dehumanising and destabilising effects of social media on our discourse: do we spend too much time in virtual reality?

42:41 The benefits of being surprised.

44:13 Mónica’s experience as a journalist and how this has informed her worldview. Her love of conversation.

48:48 The kinds of questions that are good to ask people, that they respond well to. The difference between questions that inspire openness vs. clamming up - specifics or the way in which we ask the question/who is asking us?

54:13 Iona’s main problem with Twitter: you don’t just talk to people, you can see, at the same time, what they’re saying *about* you to others. “Chaining” and the failure to be curious. How to be more open: small steps.

59:54 Our attachments to our beliefs and the ‘zealotry of converts’ paradox. The pain of changing our beliefs on big issues. Opinions as “snapshots.” How to loosen those attachments in conversation - and why we should do this. Listening to other people doesn’t mean you endorse their views.

1:05:40 Do our conversational difficulties come from a deep fear of being wrong? [‘Editorial’ note: the gif Iona mentions is from the British comedy Peep Show, not Inglourious Basterds!] How do we overcome this fear? The long, slow process of changing one’s mind - the distant and often unintended consequences of arguments.

1:11:52 Twitter question: are there any guests Mónica would refuse to have on the Braver Angels podcast and if so, on what criteria?

1:22:29 Twitter question: What had to be trimmed from Mónica’s book that she would have liked to have kept in? Is she planning a second book?

1:27:14 Is there anything Mónica wishes Iona had asked her or that Iona didn’t give her a chance to talk about?

Ben’s website:

https://benburgis.com/

Follow Ben on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/BenBurgis

Buy ‘Christopher Hitchens: What He Got Right, How He Went Wrong, and Why He Still Matters’ by Ben Burgis:

https://redemmas.org/titles/36536-christopher-hitchens--what-he-got-right--how-he-went-wrong--and-why-he-still-matters

Follow Matt on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/mattjj89

Daniel’s LinkTree (contains links to his website, Substack, and more):

https://linktr.ee/DanielJamesSharp

Follow Daniel on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/DJtotheS

Daniel’s article ‘Naming the Unnameable: Salman Rushdie, Christopher Hitchens and the Defence of Free Speech’ in Areo Magazine:

https://areomagazine.com/2021/05/17/naming-the-unnameable-salman-rushdie-christopher-hitchens-and-the-defence-of-free-speech/

References

Christopher Hitchens bibliography:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens_bibliography

Channel 4 News report on Hitchens’s death, December 2011:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4yvPSZN5ZQ

Hitchens’s Vanity Fair essay on J.G. Ballard and sci-fi, ‘The Catastrophist’, 2010:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/01/the-catastrophist/307820/

The Brothers Hitchens debate God and Iraq, 2008:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngjQs_QjSwc

The New Philosophers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Philosophers

Hitchens’s Vanity Fair essay on ‘Why Women Aren’t Funny’, 2007:

https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2007/01/hitchens200701

Timestamps

1:07 Introductions

4:34 Daniel reads from his Areo article ‘Naming the Unnameable: Salman Rushdie, Christopher Hitchens and the Defence of Free Speech’.

10:29 Matt reads from his forthcoming book ‘How Hitchens Can Save The Left: Rediscovering Fearless Liberalism in an Age of Counter-Enlightenment’.

13:34 Ben reads from his forthcoming book ‘Christopher Hitchens: What He Got Right, How He Went Wrong, and Why He Still Matters’.

18:40 Ben discusses why he was attracted to Hitchens in the first place and why he decided to write a book about him: rehabilitation of what Ben believes to be Hitchens’ best parts.

28:15 Matt answers the same question. Hitchens as a “first principles thinker”.

34:02 Daniel answers the same question. His seduction by Hitchens and subsequent maturation as an admirer. Some of Hitchens’s flaws from Daniel’s point of view.

39:29 A discussion of Hitchens the literary critic and how his literary views relate to his political and moral views. Iona’s disappointment in Hitchens’s dismissal of the sci-fi genre.

44:49 Ben talks about how Hitchens was and remains a figure who needs to be written about and argued with and the reason for writing a book about him: the story of someone who goes badly wrong is more interesting than someone who was right.

46:49 Matt on the irreconcilability of and tensions within some of Hitchens’s positions.

43:04 Daniel asks Ben and Matt their views on what Hitchens got right and what he got wrong/how he went wrong and an ensuing discussion on Hitchens’s politics, especially on Afghanistan, Iraq, and interventionism (and a comparison of Peter Hitchens’s views on the same).

1:05:57 Matt discusses Hitchens on the New Philosophers and the evolution of liberal interventionism.

1:09:14 Iona discusses the feasibility of communism some of Hitchens’s foundational (and consistent) values: universalism, liberalism, humanism, anti-authoritarianism, and the defence of free speech (and freedom in general). Hitchens’s “trollish” side: uncowed by political correctness or consensus.

1:14:14 Daniel talks about Hitchens on the civil war within Islam. An ensuing discussion on the relevance of this today: arguments over the hijab and the concept of ‘Islamophobia’. Ben compares the misuse of ‘Islamophobia’ with the misuse of ‘anti-Semitism’. Hitchens and Israel/Palestine. Plus: Ben discusses his upcoming book defending the radical left economic view in response to Iona’s points above.

and more.

Dorian’s academic profile:

https://geosci.uchicago.edu/people/dorian-abbot/

Follow Dorian on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/DorianAbbot

References

Dorian’s article ‘MIT Abandons Its Mission. And Me.’, in Bari Weiss’s ‘Common Sense’ Substack:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/mit-abandons-its-mission-and-me

Dorian’s ‘Wall Street Journal’ article, ‘The Views That Made Me Persona Non Grata at MIT’:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cancel-culture-college-mit-dorian-abbot-university-chicago-representation-equity-equality-11635516316?

Watch Dorian’s cancelled lecture, ‘Climate and the Potential for Life on Other Planets’:

https://jmp.princeton.edu/events/climate-and-potential-life-other-planets

‘Life on Mars: The Ethical Implications of Colonizing the Red Planet’ by Thomas Cortellesi in ‘Areo Magazine’:

https://areomagazine.com/2018/07/02/life-on-mars-the-ethical-implications-of-colonizing-the-red-planet/

‘Rare Earth: Why Complex Life is Uncommon in the Universe’ by Peter D. Ward and Donald Brownlee:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rare-Earth-Complex-Uncommon-Universe/dp/0387952896

Timestamps

2:24 What makes a planet habitable and how we find exoplanets.

8:18 Dorian’s research on the cloud effects on tidally locked planets - and how these effects suggest these planets might be more habitable/Earth-like than previously thought.

14:10 How some exoplanets and their clouds provide a model for the possible future of climate change on Earth.

15:31 Dorian’s views on the Fermi paradox - where are the aliens? Why Dorian believes extraterrestrial life is more likely than not.

20:23 Why we should hope to find no life at all on exoplanets rather than finding lots of extinct civilisations.

21:10 Twitter question: what does Dorian think a realistic time scale and strategy for colonising exoplanets would be?

22:39 Twitter question: how useful is the Drake equation?

24:08 Twitter question: what are Dorian’s views on von Neumann self-replicating probes? (And a digression on ‘decolonisation’ and the possible impacts of us colonising other planets.)

27:50 Dorian’s views on the ‘Rare Earth’ thesis, which posits that complex life is very unlikely to be found elsewhere in the universe.

29:32 What does Dorian’s exoplanet work tell us about climate change? What does Dorian think are the main misconceptions about anthropogenic climate change? What we don’t know: the future of climate change

32:21 Dorian’s work on rogue planets - could these harbour life?

35:20 Has the atmosphere in physics departments changed recently? Is there pressure from the woke left and climate denialist right? Academia, cancel culture, and chilling.

39:52 Why science should be based on merit, not politics.

40:22 Who does Dorian think Iona should interview?

Jack’s chess blog:

https://chessgospinny.blogspot.com/

Follow Jack on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/imjackrudd

Jack’s Lichess account:

https://lichess.org/@/JackRudd

Mansa’s Medium blog:

https://medium.com/@rasmansa

Follow Mansa on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/rasmansa

Mansa’s Lichess account:

https://lichess.org/@/rasmansa

References

Lichess, free online chess website:

https://lichess.org/

Information about AlphaGo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo

Secrets of Modern Chess Strategy by John Watson:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secrets-Modern-Chess-Strategy-Nimzowitsch/dp/1901983072

Ludek Pachman’s Modern Chess Strategy: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pachmans-Modern-Chess-Strategy-Pachman/dp/4871874966/

Timestamps

2:32 Jack and Mansa relate how they started playing chess and how it has affected their lives. How Iona recently got into chess.

7:46 How can studying chess benefit people? Does chess provide you with transferable skills? What can it teach you?

12:02 Favourite players both historically and currently.

13:26 How have computers impacted chess-playing? What has the impact of AlphaGo been? What are computers good for in chess?

17:06 Where do beginners go wrong? Mansa’s tips for beginners.

19:43 A question from Twitter: what is your favourite chess piece and why?

21:03 Advice on how to study and play chess. Jack’s current favourite chess book.

25:46 Another Twitter question: is chess computationally solvable? Is chess now doomed to always end in draws at the highest level?

30:04 The upcoming World Championship: will there be a draw or will it be more messy and exciting?

31:35 Another Twitter question: if it was up to you, what would the format of the World Championship be?

33:08 Thanks to computers, there are no longer adjournments in chess: what has been the effect of this on how games are played?

35:50 Blunders in chess.

38:34 Another Twitter question: will our increasingly short attention spans affect chess?

40:30 Another Twitter question: why is there a paucity of women in chess?

46:08 Another Twitter question: why has such a slow, cerebral game become popular in drama as a backdrop?

46:58 Would you encourage others to play chess. Why or why not?

48:10 Mansa: chess as escapism, as a unifier, as egalitarian, as meritocratic, as a demonstration of personal responsibility; the beauty of chess.

Rob’s website:

https://www.robbrooks.net/

Rob’s academic profile:

https://www.bees.unsw.edu.au/our-people/robert-brooks

Follow Rob on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/Brooks_Rob

Rob’s column for The Conversation:

https://theconversation.com/columns/rob-brooks-1343

Buy Rob’s first book, Sex, Genes & Rock ’n’ Roll, here:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sex-Genes-Rock-n-Roll/dp/1611682363

Buy Rob’s new book, Artificial Intimacy: Virtual friends, digital lovers and algorithmic matchmakers, here:

https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/1742236855

References

Rob’s Areo article, ‘How Virtual Friends Can Influence People’:

https://areomagazine.com/2021/10/19/how-virtual-friends-can-influence-people/

Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0091906814

Timestamps

2:04 Iona reads an excerpt from Artificial Intimacy

7:58 An outline of the book; its themes and genesis.

13:39 ‘Digital lovers’—virtual reality porn, sex robots, smart sex toys &c. Iona and Rob debate: love, sex, and deception—are all relationships in some sense illusions? Is sentience essential for real relationships? Could all elements of ‘genuine’ human relationships be replicated by machines—could human/machine relationships become ‘genuine’?

27:26 More debate on sex, friendship, and companionship in light of the artificial. Can there be ‘real intimacy’ between humans and machines?

33:31 Digital friends. Dale Carnegie’s ‘likeability algorithm’: can AI also manipulate us in this way? Iona reads a ‘chilling’ passage from Rob’s book: how much do algorithms influence us, and how much more influential will they become in time? If Carnegie with his limited vantage point was able to codify how to effectively influence people, just think about what omnipresent AI algorithms could do!

44:08 Could machines get us to like them more than we like other people by using everything they know to be nice and appeal to us, by giving us the ‘tastiest’ parts of a relationship without the downsides? Case study: Eliza the chatbot. Can we be fooled/deceived by such machines?

55:42 The most controversial view in Rob’s book: if we assume that machines are going to get better at faking human interactions, especially regarding sex and relationships, to the extent that this is enough for a lot of people, then that could potentially be a very good thing. More debate/discussion on/of this and the dominance in our lives of the online.

1:07:30 A shocking plot twist. (And: Slavoj Žižek’s sex robots.)

Jamie’s academic profile:

https://iash.uq.edu.au/profile/2151/jamie-freestone

Jamie and Matthew McGann’s joint website/blog:

http://www.mcgannfreestone.com.au/

Jamie’s Areo articles:

https://areomagazine.com/author/jamiemiltonfreestone/

References

Jamie’s ‘The meaning of science’ blog post (about his upcoming book):

http://www.mcgannfreestone.com.au/?p=1984

Jamie’s paper ‘Contemporary Darwinism as a worldview’:

https://www.academia.edu/56111417/Contemporary_Darwinism_as_a_worldview

Jamie’s paper ‘Narrative: Agents Acting at a Distance’:

https://www.academia.edu/44253572/Narrative_Agents_Acting_at_a_Distance

Jamie’s Areo article ‘Climate Change: A Very Simple Story’:

https://areomagazine.com/2021/06/24/climate-change-a-very-simple-story/

R. Scott Bakker’s article ‘What is the Semantic Apocalypse?’:

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/what-is-the-semantic-apocalypse/

Timestamps

3:30 Iona reads an excerpt from a blog post by Jamie about ‘the meaning of science’: how it fundamentally challenges everyone’s view of the world.

7:08 Jamie discusses his approach to science, how it differs from other approaches, and his upcoming book on the meaning of science in/for our lives. How his literature background and interest in science are strongly linked.

10:51 Jamie’s (and others’) outlook versus the ought-is rule and the gatekeeping philosophers. Jamie on now being out and proud about science’s applicability to all aspects of life: is-ought and fact/value as false dichotomies and red herrings.

16:28 The twin dangers of projecting morals onto the world and using science to justify eugenics, for example, and how these differ from Jamie’s approach of using science to inform morality.

20:22 Narrative in fiction and how it is understood by cognitive science and what it tells us about the evolution of cognition: the evolution of narrative and narratives of evolution. Jamie’s ‘grand theory’ of what narrative actually is and where the previous study of this has gone wrong. The importance of coherence in narrative and our use of ‘mental time travel’ when following narratives.

29:08 Theory of mind and mental time travel together give us our ability to comprehend narrative and explain the two key ingredients of a satisfying narrative (coherence and agent- led actions).

30:04 Foreshadowing and the accretion of meaning: earlier parts of a narrative illuminate later parts and, crucially, vice versa. The nature of skilfully constructed narratives: re-readability, a different story on each reading.

35:30 The difference between whodunnits (and other ‘popular’ genres) and ‘great literature’.

41:03 Jamie’s views on how narrative evolved. Jamie’s speculative views on the evolution of consciousness as being late-arriving: theory of mind is primitive and more widespread among species, whereas full consciousness with mental time travel is unique or rare. And: extrapolation in narrative.

50:48 The failure of scientists to create a compelling narrative on climate change (and Exxon Mobil’s and other ‘bad guys’’ spectacular successes in the opposite direction). Why we need to change this and how.

57:12 A digressive discussion of individual vs. national/corporate responsibilities to combat climate change. Plus: techno/Deutschian-optimism and resurrecting extinct species.

1:09:08 Jamie argues that even seemingly-abstract ideas like the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics have huge impacts on our lives and our ideas of meaning and purpose and morality. Could all fiction that doesn’t contravene the laws of physics be literally true somewhere in the multiverse?

1:19:48 Jamie on being at bottom a literary theorist and his advice on what and how to read. His ‘reading experiments’ and most controversial literary opinion. Plus: should we read translated works?

1:29:40 Why podcast hosts should always read the work of their guests.

1:31:53 Jamie’s recommendation on who Iona should interview.

Faithless Hijabi website:

https://www.faithlesshijabi.org/

Faithless Hijabi on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/FaithlessHijabi

Support the work of Faithless Hijabi:

https://www.faithlesshijabi.org/support-us/

Follow Zara on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/zarakayk

References:

Zara’s offending Facebook post featuring a photoshop of two men kissing in front of the Kaaba in Mecca:

https://www.facebook.com/zara.kayk/posts/3550692608358194

Zara and Nick’s Medium piece on their work and Mariam Oyiza, a Nigerian ex-Muslim who now fights for women’s rights, ‘On being a Faithless Hijabi’:

https://medium.com/@nickforbes_74938/on-being-a-faithless-hijabi-fa73f8827901

Mariam’s website:

https://letsaii.com/mariam-aliyu/

Iona’s Two for Tea conversation with Sadia Hameed:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/94-sadia-hameed-separatist-communities-in-the-uk-public-limited-version

Timestamps:

2:04 Zara’s ethnic background and her upbringing in Tanzania as part of the closed minority Khoja Shia community.

4:47 A tea-based interruption and interlude; Iona lays down the tea-law.

5:19 Zara continues discussing her upbringing.

6:36 The links between the Khoja community and Shiism in Iraq and Iran.

7:22 Zara’s languages and education.

8:19 Zara on the social life of the community growing up: religious and ethnic segregation and family networks. The Khoja community as a “parallel community.”

11:08 Zara discusses breaking away from the community and moving abroad; her desire to pursue higher education. Her feeling of liberation in Malaysia: a place where you could be a Muslim and not wear a hijab and meet people of other ethnicities and religions.

13:38 Zara on meeting a “flamboyant” gay man for the first time and Islamic homophobia. Her first argument with her brother was about his homophobia.

15:03 Zara on the “culture shocks” of coming out of the community bubble and her family’s relative liberalism. Moving to Australia.

17:58 Zara’s recent return to Tanzania on family business: weird experiences, harassment, and detention and questioning by police for 72 hours about her opinions and posts (including a photoshop of two men kissing in front of the Kaaba in Mecca) on social media. Nick’s role: he and others formed a group to make noise about Zara’s disappearance.

31:26 Zara’s difficulty getting out of Tanzania and back to Australia after her detention. The Australian government’s reluctance to help.

36:08 The bigger picture in Tanzania: police and political corruption, brutality, and repression of activists.

39:38 Nick talks about his conservative Christian background, leaving his faith, becoming woke, becoming un-woke after Charlie Hebdo, and becoming involved in ex-Muslim issues. and Faithless Hijabi: what it is and how he got involved.

41:39 How Nick got involved with Faithless Hijabi. What Faithless Hijabi is and what it does: supporting ex-Muslims with mental health issues.

43:38 Zara describes the origins, evolution, and work of Faithless Hijabi. The plight of ex-Muslims and the issues they face.

51:19 Nick tells the story of Mariam, a Nigerian woman who was helped by Faithless Hijabi after she left her conservative Sunni community.

52:08 Faithless Hijabi’s therapist vetting process. Risks and trust issues with seeking therapy as an ex-Muslim/apostate.

56:19 The left’s failure to support ex-Muslims and apostates. ABC’s cutting of an interview with Zara because she spoke about being an ex-Muslim activist.

57:18 Zara talks about what people can do to best support ex-Muslims: we need free and open and nuanced debate between people of all backgrounds about sensitive issues like the hijab rather than caving to claims of offence or prevaricating with cultural relativism.

Will’s website:

https://willstorr.com/

Follow Will on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/wstorr

References

Will’s two previous Two for Tea appearances:

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/17-will-storr

https://soundcloud.com/twoforteapodcast/30-will-storr-the-psychology-of-stories

Buy Will’s book Selfie: How the West Became Self-Obsessed:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Selfie-How-West-Became-Self-Obsessed/dp/144728366X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1551697010&sr=1-1&keywords=selfie+will+storr

Buy Will’s book The Science of Storytelling:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Storytelling-Will-Storr/dp/0008276943

Buy Will’s novel The Hunger and the Howling of Killian Lone:

https://www.amazon.com/Hunger-Howling-Killian-Lone-ebook/dp/B00B73VMCE

Buy Will’s book The Heretics: Adventures with the Enemies of Science:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00B7N26DS/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i3

Buy Will’s latest book The Status Game: On Social Position and How We Use It:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Status-Game-Will-Storr/dp/0008354634

The Rise of Victimhood Culture by Bradley Campbell and Jason Manning:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rise-Victimhood-Culture-Microaggressions-Spaces/dp/3319703285/

‘Who Is the Bad Art Friend?’ - by Robert Koller New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/magazine/dorland-v-larson.html

‘Tight and Loose Cultures: A Conversation with Michele Gelfand’ - by Dave Nussbaum, Behavioral Scientist: https://behavioralscientist.org/tight-and-loose-cultures-a-conversation-with-michele-gelfand/

Timestamps

2:03 Iona waxes lyrical over Will’s reading voice.

3:16 Iona reads an excerpt from The Status Game on “the tyranny of the cousins”.

6:18 The three different types of ‘status games’: dominance, virtue, and success. How these still influence our social life today. How we share these games with other animals.

10:23 How Will’s concepts link with Jason Manning and Bradley Campbell’s delineation of three types of culture: honour, dignity, and victimhood. How different types of status games have been dominant at different periods of history. How we have returned to virtue games after a period dominated by success games.

13:14 The Bad Art Friend controversy and its relation to the ideas in Will’s book. Why status matters to us as much as food and water. Why we become annoyed when other people claim status: the relativity of status.

19:52 Will further explains the concept of “the tyranny of the cousins”. How this applies to today’s social media and cancel culture. Social media just changes the landscape within which our instincts act.

26:10 Have we improved morally over time? The Pinkerian view à la Will: progress as a story of our overcoming how beholden we are to primitive status games. The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution replaced virtue games with success games: status rewards for knowledge. Success games = progress. Status-seeking in science.

30:08 Michele Gelfand’s ‘tight’ vs. ‘loose’ cultures and how Will applies these concepts: tight vs. loose games. Tyrannies and cults as tight games. ‘Tight virtue games’ on Twitter: conformist, punitive.

34:34 Do we need tight games such as religion to function as a society? Has there been a decline in the quality of the kinds of status we can aim for today? Lack of pride and dignity as a hidden form of deprivation in the post-religious world. Is our obsession with virtue nowadays a result of the lack of meaning in our capitalistic lives?

41:52 The shift away from in-person interactions to online interactions. ‘Being listened to’ as a form of status that we now seek online. ‘Inflation’ of online status in this regard. How the online world negates our brains’ complex, evolved social systems.

45:52 Why do smart people believe stupid things? Why do ordinary, decent people do evil things? And how does all this relate to status? How does the status game perspective explain the Nazis?

and more on full version.

Follow Kat on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/katrosenfield

Kat’s website:

https://katrosenfield.com/

Some of Kat’s non-fiction writing, for UnHerd and Spectator World:

https://unherd.com/author/kat-rosenfield/

https://spectatorworld.com/author/kat-rosenfield/

Purchase Kat’s new book, No One Will Miss Her, here:

https://www.harpercollins.com/products/no-one-will-miss-her-kat-rosenfield

Listen to Kat’s podcast, Feminine Chaos, here:

https://shows.acast.com/femininechaos

Support Feminine Chaos here:

https://www.patreon.com/femininechaos

References:

Who Is the Bad Art Friend? - New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/magazine/dorland-v-larson.html

Feminine Chaos episode discussing the Bad Art Friend controversy:

https://shows.acast.com/femininechaos/episodes/conflict-is-stored-in-the-kidneys

Papers in the Wind by Eduardo Sacheri:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Papers-Wind-Eduardo-Sacheri/dp/1590516427

Timestamps:

2:20 Kat introduces and reads an excerpt from her new novel, No One Will Miss Her.

7:03 Kat discusses her previous novels in comparison to her new one.

7:45 Why are women attracted to murder mystery novels? Is it because women constantly feel at risk from men and want to take control? Why was Kat drawn to the genre?

11:43 The historical and current associations between women and the novel—both in general and with murder mystery/whodunnits in particular. The particular expectations of women writers/readers vs. male writers/readers.

14:27 The connection between the novel of manners and the murder mystery.

15:43 Kat’s literary (and musical) influences and inspirations.

19:58 Is there a difference between the way men and women write in this genre or is the individual’s approach more important?

20:58 Kat’s experiences of the differences between writing YA fiction and adult fiction. What restrictions and freedoms are there in these genres? The passing of the early 2010s ‘YA moment’ and YA now—the current constricting focus on identity in YA and literary fiction.

25:03 Is there a real distinction between ‘literary fiction’ and other forms of fiction? ‘Literary fiction’ as a social scene or community rather than a distinct mode of writing. Pulpy fiction vs. literary fiction. The Bad Art Friend controversy.

30:43 Is fiction by and for women devalued because of its femininity? Male novels vs. female novels in the 18th century. ‘Trashy’ masculine novels. ‘Chick lit’ and ‘dick lit’.

34:22 Have there been surprising reactions to Kat’s new novel? One maddening review. How to construct mysteries and twists effectively. The pleasures of reading well-constructed plots.

37:08 The importance of plotting and how literary fiction is often lacking in this regard. The difficulty of coming after Agatha Christie, the master of construction and plotting. Good surprises in fiction vs. bad ones. The pleasures of re-reading well-constructed plots.

42:47 Kat’s feelings on her new novel being finished and ‘out there’. Her anxiety over surpassing herself in her next novel.

44:55 Kat’s choices about the ‘left-behind town’ setting of No One Will Miss Her. The challenges of writing mystery in the age of the internet and constant interpersonal connection.

49:15 Connections between Kat’s fiction and non-fiction: exploring the same questions via different angles.

50:00 Is there a specific theme running through Kat’s writing that she sees as ‘her own’? What are the subjects and questions that interest Kat? How women’s traditional social skills give them an advantage in the digital age.

52:08 The differences between male and female violence/aggression.

53:50 Kat discusses why she loves the process of writing.