Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Matthew Bianco of the Circe Institute discuss the second part of Plato's Gorgias--the dialogue between Socrates and Polus—Gorgias’ spirited, “colt-like” student who bursts in at 461b accusing his own teacher of being “too ashamed” to admit rhetoric needs no justice, only the power to persuade.

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What follows is pure Platonic fireworks: Socrates refuses long speeches, forces short questions, and delivers the unforgettable pastry-baker analogy (462–466a), branding rhetoric as mere flattery—like cookery or cosmetics for the soul—that “has no speech to give about the nature of the things” (465a). Polus agrees with several premises yet recoils when Socrates concludes that doing injustice is worse than suffering it, and the unpunished tyrant is the unhappiest man alive (478–479).

The conversation spirals into a shocking vision of punishment as medicine for the soul: the wrongdoer should run to the judge “as to a doctor” (480b). Throughout, the hosts explore whether rhetoric itself is evil or only rhetoric divorced from philosophy, using the tripartite soul as a foothold—Gorgias as corrupted intellect, Polus as honor-craving thumos, Callicles (next week) as unashamed appetite—while Socrates models a just soul governing all three.

Dr. Bianco brings fresh insight into Socrates’ tailored pedagogy and the happiness that only a philosophical rhetoric can truly serve.

Key Themes & Search Tags:

• Plato's Gorgias

• Polus

• Rhetoric vs Philosophy

• Tripartite Soul

• Doing injustice vs suffering injustice

• Punishment as medicine

• Pastry-baker analogy

• Classical Education

• Socrates pedagogy

• Pleonexia

• Happiness eudaimonia