Welcome to the UnStruktured podcast!
In this episode, I talk to performance apparel design leader and former pro snowboarder JJ Collier. From snowboard to sewing machine to leading design for brands like Salomon, RLX by Ralph Lauren, Spyder and more, JJ and I talk about what it takes to design high end, high performance gear, and how to channel your passions into designing an authentic life.
Enjoy!
J.J Collier/ Founder, Collier Brands
J.J.'s design career began as a top rider on the Pro Snowboard Tour, where he first discovered a love of functional apparel and equipment. During his last two years on tour, he bought a sewing machine and started making garments. That, combined with a lifetime of natural drawing ability and a grand imagination, led to him pursuing design and fashion as a career.
After two years of building one-off styles by hand for custom clients, J.J. was contacted by Salomon to help them to launch their first skiwear line. He was offered the role of their first apparel designer and his career was launched. In the 20+ years since, he has worked at Salomon HQ in France, led outerwear design for Ralph Lauren’s RLX and Black Label collections, led the Design and Product teams for Spyder, been CDO of Triple Aught Design in San Francisco, and reinvented other top brands along the way.
Today, J.J. leads brands in apparel design, development, and storytelling through his company collier brands, llc with a focus on make, sustainability, and the future of design and development. J.J. lives to dream up new ideas and carefully craft stories that will engage and inspire consumers. His career has been rooted in seeking the correct ratio of forward design and commercial consideration. He loves to mentor creative people and entrepreneurs in navigating the apparel business and chasing their dreams within it.
J.J. lives in Boulder, Colorado with his family where snowboarding is his favorite sport. He fixes up old Porsches and loves exploring mountain back roads in/on any vehicle, and time with family is always number one.
UnStruktured is produced by Struktur Society. Original music and sound editing by Greg Brace Music. © 2023 StrukturSphere llc
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Read The Full Episode Here!
Michelle Rose 0:02
Welcome to the UnStruktured podcast. In this episode, I talk to performance apparel design leader and former pro snowboarder JJ Collier. From snowboard to sewing machine to leading design for brands like Salomon, RLX by Ralph Lauren, Spyder and more, JJ and I talk about what it takes to design high end high performance gear, and how to channel your passions into designing an authentic life.
Michelle Rose 0:34
I'm Michelle Rose and this is UnStruktured.
Michelle Rose 0:49
This episode was brought to you by Struktur Society, the community for creators in art design and music. For almost a decade Struktur has brought together creatives from across the industrial, apparel, graphic, and sound design industries, building professional relationships, creating a platform for knowledge sharing and raising the bar of product creation. From live events and workshops to publication and podcasting Struktur continues to evolve to build the strong creator community needed to craft our future. Find us at S T R U K T U R society.com and subscribe to our substack at struktursociety.substack.com.
Michelle Rose 1:32
I want to start off talking about branding, self branding, and where today we're living in a time like never before, there's never been a time like what we're all experiencing, and where each of us, we really need to look at ourselves like a brand. And this seems to be something that you've always done or have done for a long time. That's just something ever since I've known of you, have you heard of you that you've had a kind of a distinct identity. You have a very strong name. And I want to know who is JJ Collier? What is your elevator pitch?
J.J. Colliier 2:18
Well, that's, that's a fun one. It for me, it's always had to do with like, being real. And I know that's a term we use a lot right now, you know, it's kind of a trending word. But this authenticity thing for me has always been central to what I do. And that was true long before the design stuff came along. I wanted what I did with my life to matter. And that's actually from a very young age. Like, from a very young age, I believed in the dream, like I fell for the dream. I'm a super mega romantic. So whether that was like living vicariously through BMX magazines or seeing snowboarding in a James Bond movie, when when stuff struck me it struck hard. And I didn't just want to daydream about it, I wanted to do it. And so the elevator pitch for me is that I'm, you know, a creative leader, who only does work that is going to matter, and provides real experiences for people. Otherwise, I don't have the time for it.
Michelle Rose 3:19
Yeah, you've talked a lot about that authenticity. And that word has been used a lot in a lot of different ways over the recent years. What does it mean to you, being authentic?
J.J. Colliier 3:35
I mean, it means being a professional, first and foremost, like really understanding my craft. And again, whether that's sports, or motorsports, or certainly design, I want to be the best I possibly can be and I'm fortunate to love what I do, and so learning all the time just validates that... you know, you can't walk around talking about being authentic, and then not be authentic. You know, like, I'm gonna build snowboard stuff, obviously, I can snowboard, I want to test it. If I'm doing motorsports stuff, I'm very fortunate to be able to get in a, you know, a proper track prepared car and go test those things, you know? Or even if it's just to get away, like I still want the experiences to matter, you know, because we know we've it's a blip. We're here for, not to get dark but like, you know, take advantage of the time we have...make it matter.
Michelle Rose 4:29
Yeah, absolutely. Well one of my favorite things to do when talking with another creative or another designer (which I just love spending time talking with fellow designers and artists) is I love to talk about our background and I mean way-back-ground...like where do we come from? And, you know, digging into our childhood and understanding, you know, what is our foundation, what makes us tick, what formed us and what inspires us? You grew up in a small town in North Carolina, called Banner Elk never heard of it until I looked it up. What was it like for you to grow up there? Like, how did it inform you and help form who you are today?
J.J. Colliier 5:18
Well, it was magical. I mean, nothing short of magical for like a little kid to move from an army base where we have this life that I really enjoyed as a, you know, four or five year old. And all of a sudden having, you know, 20 plus acres, and literally nothing to be afraid of except the the stuff I made up was out in those woods, you know, and so it was very much a time of like, exploration and freedom and the ability to just kind of like daydream and explore and really, with almost like, almost in a no fear kind of environment. And my parents were the same way. My folks are amazing, they were so open and excited for us to have this opportunity to have like a low key mountain life. The town happens to be like, if you've ever heard of it, if you know it you love it.. it's kind of one of those little towns, there are ski resorts and amazing golf courses and all that. So it's actually quite a well known destination now some, you know, 50 years later, 45 years later. But, you know, it's where it all is really where it all started for me in terms of like imagining worlds that were bigger than the one I actually had to live in and only say had to live in because, you know, it's hard for a daydreamer in school sitting there squirming, you just can't wait to get back outside again. And so yeah, so it was the beginning of my creative life. Not right away, but as time went on, I was like, oh, wait a minute, like I'd start to imagine, you know, adventures.
Michelle Rose 6:47
That seems to be rarer and rarer, you know, for kids today. I don't know. I mean, I live in Oakland, California, where it's almost non existent to be able to do something like that with with our children. And I don't know if you're able to provide that kind of experience for your kids?
J.J. Colliier 7:05
Yeah, we've certainly tried I mean, Boulder is has got its own, I mean, access to to all of that, but maybe not quite in the same way as having, you know, your own property and a lot fewer things around to eat you and stuff.
Michelle Rose 7:21
Literally. So did you grow up, I mean, were you involved in, you know, outdoor activities as a little, wee little one, when you were...
J.J. Colliier 7:32
Well, if playing army, and you know, getting my kit all together so I can look exactly proper Vietnam era together counts as outdoor activities, then yeah, I mean, that's definitely was our like, our main thing. You know, my dad's former Green Beret and, you know, a retired Army officer and so I was certainly inspired by his life. And we had these woods, and so yeah, for me and my friends running around, there was a lot a lot of that stuff. And it's so funny because, funny to me, you know, military reference is such a big deal in my life now professionally. That being able to go back and reference the stuff that I literally have my dad's like, my old, my original, his original ALICE pack, and his original helmets and web gear and fatigues. I mean, that stuff's still a reference for me. It's just hilarious to be holding the same things in my hands 45 years later.
Michelle Rose 8:23
Yeah, that's why you use the term kit all the time.
J.J. Colliier 8:26
Oh, yeah.
Michelle Rose 8:27
Right. I mean...
J.J. Colliier 8:28
I didn't get it from him. I picked that up elsewhere. But I mean, yeah, just that's, those references are central for me.
Michelle Rose 8:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, I know that people do talk about kit. It's just I've heard the most from you, especially as a designer. And that makes sense to me, you know, thinking about that, because that's what you're thinking about... is the whole package, how it all works together. What do you need to do the thing you're trying you're trying to accomplish? What was it like then in, I mean, in... particularly, I want to go into the 80's. What was it like in Banner Elk? What was the kids scene, the teen scene? What was what was going on there? I'm thinking about youth culture.
J.J. Colliier 9:09
Oh, boy. So it's like the Christmas tree capital of the world is Avery County, where I grew up you know, so it's quiet, it's rural. Sweet people, looks super low key. So in the 80's... I always tell the story about how I was you know, kind of looking at like a Sears catalog for probably my seventh grade birthday or something. I'm like, compound bow or BMX bike? I love both still.
Michelle Rose 9:35
What did you choose? What did you choose?
J.J. Colliier 9:36
Well, I happened to choose.... well, there was some, there was a place on my, on our property like up on, where we live where I was like, Oh, that could easily be a BMX jump. So I went into BMX. BMX led to skateboarding, skateboarding led to snowboarding and like... So it was all, and that was also to the beginning like, Michelle, of like the vicarious California like, Okay, I'm in this little town in North Carolina but all this West Coast stuff appeals to me. And so you know, here we are these little nerds running around with our spiky hair and jams and dreaming of, you know, being in, you know, Laguna Beach. And instead we were like, Yeah, in this one stoplight town.
Michelle Rose 10:15
Yeah. Well, where did you hear about it? Like, how did it.. how did all of that California, that sport culture, like, how did it reach you? How did you become... how did you know about it?
J.J. Colliier 10:26
I mean, literally, we just started like, I always do, I just started digging into it. You know, like, when I got my BMX bike, it's like, okay, I didn't know where we were getting magazines at the time, but BMX action magazine was the initial unlock. That was the first thing you know, and BMX was on fire, it was coming up '83, '82... it had been up happening before, but right around there '82, '83, boom! I caught it right as it was happening. In fact, the same was true for for snowboarding, too, you know, later.
Michelle Rose 10:55
Yeah, yeah, I wanted to dig into that too, as well. But, one of the things I love about digging into our youth culture, because we're similar age, and same type of thing, but I grew up in California and so, yeah, BMX bikes were the thing... all the boys had them, so... some of the girls wanted them. Rollerskating, skateboarding, any of that stuff. What didn't come up for us, obviously, was a lot of snowboarding, unless you live North, because we were Bay Area and Southern Cal and so it was very street sports. But I love to hear about how other people across the country heard about it, you know, the magazines, the TV shows, the music, maybe not so much when we're young. But all the different ways that people became aware of those types of culture. You know, how was it in your.. did you have other friends and other people at in Banner elk that we're getting into that as well, that you could hang out with?
J.J. Colliier 11:55
No, no. In fact, it's so funny, it's like.... back to the, you know, when I told you I'm in the woods, and it was early dreaming? Later on, nothing shaped my life more than James Bond movies. Like nothing, nothing.
Michelle Rose 12:08
I can see. I can see that in your work. Absolutely.
J.J. Colliier 12:12
Well so, I mean, it's in the work. It's in the cars. It's in the mountains and destinations and like, oh my god, like nothing triggered me more than Bond. I was like, Oh, that looks pretty good. And so it was a View To A Kill. I should know the year, I think it's probably '82 or something. The opening scene bonds being chased by some bad guys, the snowmobile blows up and the skid lands in the snow next to him, and he puts it on his feet and takes off. And I never, I mean, even as much as I loved BMX and all my other little passions, nothing has triggered me like that scene, where I was like, Oh, my God. I mean, it just crashed my hard drive. I was.. I will do that. And I think I'll be good. Yeah, so, like...so awesome!
Michelle Rose 12:55
Oh, man. So you have to answer then, okay...probably, of course... Who's your favorite Bond actor?
J.J. Colliier 13:02
Oh, God. That's... yeah. I mean, it's.... I'm sorry, but it's Daniel Craig. I mean, he's just... he just.... he reinvented the genre in such an amazing way. But the fact is, I loved them all. Ask me, you know... well, I don't know if I love them all. I certainly... the Bond era for me was more of a Roger Moore thing. It was late 70's, early 80's. So that's when I was really like, you know, getting deeply influenced. And I think they were what happened to be on cable at the time, too. We didn't, you know, you didn't get to see the Sean Connery stuff because it wasn't, you know, HBO wasn't playing it.
Michelle Rose 13:34
Yeah. You had to dig back into that one.
J.J. Colliier 13:36
Yeah. Yeah.
J.J. Colliier 13:37
So... but it was just so... it was so influential. And then, right around that time, Burton was... while snowboarding was starting to get covered a little bit in Transworld Skateboarding. And then I think before that era Burton might have even run some early ads in the BMX magazines, which of course was genius. And then, so yeah, so it just started to land.
Michelle Rose 13:58
Then from that point, when did you first get on a board?
J.J. Colliier 14:04
We had, I mean, I think certainly Bond was the first introduction to it. And then a TV show did a quick thing on it, but that was a few years later. But then there were snurfers. So before there was snowboards, there were snurfers and so we were able to get some, like, knock-off snurfers from a local hardware store. I still have mine. Made bindings out of cut up BMX tubes because standing on them was just a death wish. So I had to secure my feet you know, and that was the first time we had anything strapped to our feet. And then it was November '86 that I... my brother Dave and I got our first boards and went riding at Beech mountain and then it just very shortly thereafter we were like, Okay, we're.. we know how to do this.
J.J. Colliier 14:45
It's amazing
Michelle Rose 14:47
How... you were hooked, right? No?
J.J. Colliier 14:49
100%. Even with snowblowers and ice and and moguls and all of the stuff to contend with and East Coast skiing. I am so grateful to Beech Mountain I can't even tell you... because if they hadn't allowed it, I mean, if they hadn't allowed it, I would have been toast. It would have been all backcountry. The other mountains didn't allow it. Beech was like totally open to it. They embraced us...and it was totally awesome.
Michelle Rose 14:50
I remember that, because I didn't grow up doing snow sports, but I knew about it. And I knew about the snurfers and they were in some of my magazines and whatnot. But I knew that there was a lot of the fight going on, wanting to keep them out. And you know, and I've interviewed.. part of the Struktur community... Trent Bush, who was one of the Twist founders and you know, Scott Clum, who was with Sims and whatnot, some of those guys. Yeah. And, you know...
J.J. Colliier 15:39
And Scott...sorry, real quick, Michelle. Scott's in the magazine. Okay, like my friend brought me some magazines back from Myrtle Beach. You know, she's so sweet. Melanie. I always I'm like, Melanie, you'll never know what those magazines meant to me. And I found them at home recently and I saw Scott in there and I tore out his ad and sent it to him. Because it was... I never forgot what a rad shot it was, you know? So.. here I am daydreaming.
Michelle Rose 16:04
Yeah. And it's great. And it's just... the people I mean, for me to, like, to see that culture happen, and then grow and evolve... and the art and culture and creativity and design that has come out of that, you know, over the last 30-40 years is amazing. And I think it needs ...it will, it'll get more of its due but I do think more of that history needs to be documented.
J.J. Colliier 16:31
They're starting to. They're starting to do a pretty great job. Yeah. The recent Ride documentary and all that was a nice... nice retrospective. Yeah, it's cool.
Michelle Rose 16:39
Great. Yeah, I just think it has so much to do with, like, it's a very important piece of our cultural history. And it's a very strong piece of Gen X, you know, which we are not particularly good at tooting our own horn, and putting it out there. And so that's starting to happen a bit more. We celebrate, we keep things kind of to ourselves and to our, tribes and our people. And so I love to pull that out and share that a lot more. So, yeah, I mean, I was looking at another interview that you had done, and some of the things that I didn't know yet about you, but...you then, you'd been snowboarding for a while and you got your father to take you to Vermont for the US Open. And you competed and won.
J.J. Colliier 17:38
Yeah, I won. I won the junior moguls. In 1988. Yeah.
Michelle Rose 17:41
So, how did you get your dad to take you there? And....
J.J. Colliier 17:46
Oh, I don't know, we just... it was just such a stroke of genius. We have family in the northeast, it was like, you know, we really, really, I didn't know what... I don't remember Dave and I like working on our parents too hard about this. But yeah, but we got him to drive 17 hours to Vermont. In March.... and we competed and both did quite well. But yeah, but I wound up winning the junior moguls. And I think I might have had one of the highest... I think I might have had the highest score for the pros, too. I don't want to... I was... it was an unbelievable experience where I'm this 135 pound 16 year old. And I've learned how to... what did it was like it spin I could do a 360. And I don't know if anyone was doing... how many people really spinning, like really spinning. And the fact that I could spin this heavy giant board that was too big for me, I don't know. But that's what cinched it
Michelle Rose 18:38
Opportunities of the early days, you know, when you're just doing your thing, you know, at home in your own backyard or whatnot. And then you go out, and you do what you do, and you find out that you're doing pretty good.
J.J. Colliier 18:50
Well, and to be a little bit more open about it for a moment, it was like I could draw, and I could daydream. And that was sort of like, you know... I was an active kid. But I was too small to really be a BMX racer. I wasn't a natural skateboarder. I loved it, like, you know, dropping on a vert ramp and whatever later on. But like snowboarding was the first thing where I was like... wasn't like the last pick for, you know, kickball, like or whatever it had been my whole life. Whereas I was just too small to be like, you know. So when you find something like this, whether it's snowboarding or now like design work, and you're good at it and you love it, it's like nothing was going to... like... I was set. I was just going to be as good as I possibly could be because it was the first thing that had ever really unlocked my like persona for me in a way that I, where I really felt genuinely good about myself. Not that I felt bad about myself, but you know, preteen teenager you're like looking for identity and to find it snowboarding Holy moly. Thank you.
Michelle Rose 19:52
It's rough, yeah. We were talking about that, about the kind of the last pic thing. Was that something that you struggled with a little bit? I mean, I think we all struggle with it to a degree and we don't talk about it. Or we all have that fear that we're going to be that. Yeah.
J.J. Colliier 20:11
Yeah, it was real. I mean, I think it was... it's not something I dwelled on too much. In fact, I noticed it more later when I was like, Oh, yeah, wait a minute, I was kind of like... It never bothered me too much because I had my own little group of friends and we were doing our thing and that was great. But it's SO FUNNY In retrospect how acutely aware you are of even, like, elementary school social hierarchies. And so and it's something I've been cognizant of as a parent, too. Towards like, okay, just pay attention to what's going on, you know, so that you're aware of how people feel. But I don't remember it really bothering me very much. I just noticed it later. I guess I noticed it when I found that thing that sort of made me feel like I was set apart from the crowd in a way that was nice. Like, you know, I didn't have to, no one had to be put down for me to feel better. I just knew that I had something that was a little bit special. And it felt, you know, it felt good.
Michelle Rose 21:02
Yeah, it feels nice when you can find that thing. I mean, so many of us creative artists, creatives, musicians, right? You know, we all feel some sort of way of, I don't know... for some people, there's an outcast feeling, I didn't necessarily feel like an outcast. But I always felt a little... I was always the artist, myself personally, and and I always felt a little odd, little different, like I was trying to... and we moved a lot, so I always had to try to kind of re-fit in. And I always had friends but it became apparent to me, you know, over time that I often felt out of place. And that was the very thing that made me creative, and artistic. And that is the thing that I'm seeing with every artist I ever talked to, is that piece that made them feel a little bit left out or different or odd, is the thing that also really helped them be that unique piece. A finding that unique talent or that that thing that you bond to is part of that important life path. And maybe... I think about parents like driving 17 hours in March to bring their kids to something like this, they must have seen something or had some positive feeling of like, Yeah, let's do this. There's a reason.
J.J. Colliier 22:26
I mean, there was no hockey game every Thursday night or whatever, to see if the kid had it or not. Dave and I talked my dad into taking us. I don't know if he'd been to the mountain to see us ride. But like, you know, because it's kind of hard to observe snowboarding in any meaningful way. But like, yeah, he was, you know, he couldn't be more thrilled with the outcome. We both, Dave and I both had a good weekend. I came away with that first place. But he, you know, it opened doors for us and unlock things for my brother and I in a way that he couldn't have possibly anticipated driving us up there.
Michelle Rose 22:58
Yeah. Now. So how did that lead into going pro?
J.J. Colliier 23:04
Well, it just, I mean, try to imagine this... like before Stratton I'm reading the magazines and dreaming of living, you know, at writing at Donner ski ranch or, you know, wherever.... the magical places out west. Come back from the US Open, sponsored by Burton and with Oakley on the side. Like, give me a break. I didn't bring any Kleenex in here. I usually joke about this because I'm like welling up thinking about the impossibility of it compared to my dreams at the time. Like, I thought I might go up there and do pretty well. I didn't think I was gonna get offered Burton sponsorship while I was there. And that's, that's what happened. So I came back with my trophy, I'm sponsored going into my senior year of high school, you know, I've got my mullet. It just looks epic. Everything was clicking. But so it was like this. It was just an impossible dream. It was like, I can't believe this is happening. And then it continued to happen because I moved out west and still, you know, still really could ride against everybody. it was cool.
Michelle Rose 24:09
Yeah, And you were saying, I mean, I've heard you talk about that you were in that second wave of sponsored riders because, you know, as any new sport like this, and we don't see a lot of new sports come out so this is a big deal. snowboarding was a huge deal. And when it first comes out, it's a renegade kind of like, no one wants to take it seriously, want to kick everybody off the mountain. But then you start having these events and sponsorships and the first wave is always kind of the, you know, going through the machete carving a path. The second wave has another experience and you get plenty of other waves after that. Talk about your wave.
J.J. Colliier 24:50
Well, the first wave was like the guys who were in the magazines, you know. Like this was Terry Kidwell, really OG Tahoe rider legend, lay down the initial tracks like that were just unreal, like, and then, you know, similar timeline, Craig Kelly, Shaun Palmer, like these early names who were just legend, you know, legends... still legends. And then there was this, you know, from '88, '89 forward, the 16, 17 year old guys were starting to come up... me and Jeff Brushie and Todd Richards and like, you know, a bunch of these other names that are like, really, you know, had good careers in it. And were really part of what I guess I would consider the second wave. So we were competing against Shaun and Craig Kelly and like, those guys were all in the same contest, but they were just old enough that I feel like they were the ones who really laid it down the first time. And I can, I mean, I'm sorry, I could list 40 other names, but you get the gist. We were like, the just the second round of young guys coming up.
Michelle Rose 25:48
But what was that like for you guys? In terms of like, well, the grand scheme of things. I'm thinking about people listening now, and some people are going to know this history, some people are going to be younger. And they want to know a little bit about, you know, like, what were you, I mean, what was it like to be sponsored? How often were you? What were you doing, who was sponsoring you?
J.J. Colliier 26:10
We were just coming up, you know? I graduated from high school, moved to Breckenridge, I was just doing the amateur tour, you know. There was the, the the pro riders and then the amateur riders, and we would, you know, sometimes Burton team, like Noah Brandon and Jason Ford and the guys would like Jimmy Scott would like, you know, conveniently show up in Breckenridge. And of course, we were like, Dude, you can stay as long as you want. You know, we're getting to ride with the pro team, you know. And so.. and from that epic coaching, and friendships and all that, but so it was just the, it was my amateur years. II was trying to win contests and so I won contests when I could, you know, and racing and halfpipe. Like had a couple of great amateur seasons in a row. Won it overall '90 and '91. This is ancient history, but turned pro and '92 to see if I could you know, hang with the big boys and managed to do pretty well.
Michelle Rose 26:59
Yeah. And then you were working with, like, the brands on not just sponsorship, but on gear.
J.J. Colliier 27:06
Later, not until much later.
Michelle Rose 27:08
Really? That didn't come in til....
J.J. Colliier 27:10
Oh no, that really changed. I mean, there was certainly rider feedback, of course. But to the extent that it seems to happen now it was just getting started. Like, you know. Craig was a master board shaper working with Paul at Burton and doing like, incredible stuff. And I'm gonna leave names out. I don't mean to but it's like, but certainly there was there was rider feedback. But on apparel, I don't know if it was as much as it was on hard goods, where it was like, you know, they were learning things every day about bindings and boards and flex and side cut and all the stuff. But on apparel that was kind of like very much... no one had time for clothing at the time. I mean, it was, initially it was like how do we make the boards as good as they can be? And you know, there were certainly people doing cool emerging clothing brands, you know, like Twist. But that happened just a little bit later. Late 80's I really feel like the main focus was on getting hard goods figured out. And then soft goods came on really strong, you know, a little later.
Michelle Rose 28:09
It's the development of a sport, and then an industry that follows the sport. You know? So... when you were starting to ride pro then, because you know, the focus is probably so much more on the gear, but you're still being filmed, photographed. You know, what was your... I'm not gonna get into hard goods, I'm gonna go into apparel, because that's your history, your pathway. You know, what was your choice of gear? When did you start to really pay attention to the apparel that you were wearing? And what were your thoughts about, you know, what you were using at that time in the 90's?
J.J. Colliier 28:53
Well, as a young broke kid, you know, it was like, I was getting my stuff that was issued to me. You know, I'd pick colorways and stuff from Burton, but I was taking my Burton stuff. And then later on, I was partnered up with the the team at Spyder that was like most brands in the early 90's trying to figure out snowboarding. It's really hard when you're ski brand. And so it wasn't until I was sort of a little bit more on the inside. Because Spyder was in Boulder, I could come off the hill and meet with the team and like, provide feedback. But it was in that era where I would sit down and, you know, I basically would draw my jacket and pants and provide feedback. And I think it was appreciated. But at the time, it was like We've got designers for that. And I've actually been told that. We've got designers for that. And I was like, oh, boy, this is interesting. So that's where the.... it's not that I didn't appreciate the feedback but it was like when I started wanting to design in my later, late in my career, that's when we really sort of got the We've got designers for that. But it's the early days of like Spyder and Strike they were pretty receptive to at least functional feedback. And then I wasn't trying to move design lines around or provide new solutions for features. It was more just direct feedback on stuff that were issued, you know.
Michelle Rose 30:00
Yeah, and on a side note that, you know, outside of my focus here is thinking about, you know, I came into designing for the outdoor industry in about 2001. And I did not... I came out of fashion school and not from being a big snow sports user. I started working with Columbia Sportswear and started working on their snow sports. And by then it was already, I really remember people talking about, especially when I went to The North Face few years later, being a user, you know...They're not a user, you know, or They're just a designer, they're not a user. And it kind of feels a little bit, the opposite of what you're talking about is okay, I'm a user, I have some ideas. And they're saying, we have designers for that.
J.J. Colliier 30:50
Well, there was one.. I've just, I'm referencing one example for what it's worth, like, certainly all the brands came at it differently. And in my career with highly valued, you know, athlete feedback, years of working with Chris Davenport, and these other athletes, you know, that we're providing real world feedback that was really, really interesting. If you work at Spyder, you know, or Solomon, you're very often you're a user. Not everyone's a user, a lot of the design team are. So we had our own thoughts on things. But you know, if you're doing a custom collection for somebody, and they they've got ideas and whether they're aesthetic or functional, it's amazing to have that resource.
Michelle Rose 31:26
Yeah. Well, you being a user from the get go, already informs that knowledge for you of how valuable that is.
J.J. Colliier 31:33
Yeah, that's true. I do respect it maybe differently than someone who isn't an end user at this level.
Michelle Rose 31:38
You come to the table with that. So I want to talk about that next piece. Okay, so how long were you pro? Do you remember?
J.J. Colliier 31:45
I rode, yeah, I rode the pro tour until '98. Yeah.
Michelle Rose 31:49
So...and then... what started to happen for you, then?
J.J. Colliier 31:54
Well, I was like, I didn't want to be the old guy at the club. You know, I always say this. Like, I knew that something was going to have to change. By '96, '97..... I went back in because the Olympics were coming. I tried to stop earlier, and got back in for the Olympics and wound up having a couple of epic seasons. And that was awesome. But in the first of those last two seasons is when I bought my sewing machine and started recognizing that I had this splinter in my mind, as as Morpheus would say, that just wouldn't...like I kept sitting down and drawing. I was always drawing. And when I was drawing, I was always drawing the clothes. And when I was drawing the clothes, the clothes were on a character and the character was in a scene. And it was like, Okay, what's going on here? And in fact, I even started curating tear sheets before I even knew what a tear sheet was. I'm like, why am I doing this? Why am I tearing images out of magazines and setting them aside just because I like them? I had no idea what I was doing. I was just doing ,I was just curating. And then, and then it, it hit me. I'm like, Oh, this is so obvious. I'm supposed to be an apparel designer, you know.
Michelle Rose 33:06
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Michelle Rose 33:55
I mean, I'm really intrigued by that, you know, like, and that transition of knowing, because this is a place where, you know, as I talked about this...part of the focus of our episode here is having to change careers, right? Career changing...and we have to reinvent ourselves many times through our lifetime. We don't necessarily know that when we're younger. We start to see it when we're older, and we see the pathways that we've made. But to know, when a career is starting to kind of wind down or that you want to shift, you know, that you want something different. It's more than that. And want to know that when you're that young as well is not necessarily something a lot of people can do. But I guess you're also in a young sport, right? Like a youthful sport, like you said, you're seeing the younger people coming up. You're getting older and you're not necessarily seeing that you're going to continue? I'm kind of wanting to dig into that. You notice that you're making tear sheets and you're drawing, and you clearly have an affinity towards a look and a sketch and ideas. How does that bridge over into buying a sewing machine when you don't even know how to sew? And sewing for guys isn't a big thing, right? Obviously you're not hung up on that, but it, it wasn't back then. So how does that happen? I want to dig in a little bit more. Like what do you think for you?
J.J. Colliier 35:35
Well, nothing's gonna happen if I don't do something. Like I mean, it's the most basic thing, right? But like, I can sit around thinking about it, or I can, or I can go buy a sewing machine, you know. Like I was drawing, I didn't know anything about pattern making. I'm a pro snowboarder. It's all I've ever done. You know, I mean, you know, I've done some work with brands like in between the two snowboarding eras, I have some time off and was a sales rep, which actually really mattered later, when I was looking at a roomful of sales reps, but we can talk about that later. But like it was during that period of like, okay, I like this, but I don't want to do this forever... sales rep thing where I was like... that's where I started to really think about what was going to matter to me. What was going to be authentic to me and what I what I cared about. Sidenote, I'd already met Shannon, my wife and like, I was like, Okay, I don't want to be away from her all the time. I want to be... and then want to do something meaningful. And at the time, I was probably a little bit hung up on being visible and being like the next Ralph Lauren or something. But that happened a little bit later. It was more just that I felt this and I wanted to act on it. And just like snowboarding, like I felt like I could I could do it. So I just started doing it.
Michelle Rose 36:49
Yeah, and I think there's a thing about when you have a positive experience doing something, you tend to then build on that without not realizing it maybe and creating other positive experiences. So you had a positive experience in falling in love with snowboarding, trying it, doing it having some success going pro, like, it creates a pattern within us, you know, and probably within you to Okay, sure, try something new, let's take some chances. And because you already have a belief that taking those chances can work out, and they can work out pretty good.
J.J. Colliier 37:29
Yeah, that's true. And that's definitely... I'm wired up that way. It's a little, I don't know, I was gonna say it's easier when you're younger. I don't know if it is I think there are things about it that are extremely hard when you're young, you know. When, you know, when you're trying to manage what little money you have, and what little time you have, you know, for me, it was a big period of change and certainly scary and certainly with some stress. But, you know, here I was, I didn't really party very much. I wasn't a gamer. You know, you ride the halfpipe for four hours and come home and it's like, okay, what now. So I had this, I had the benefit of having a job.. snowboarding...and a bunch of free time. And so that's when I was initially starting to sew and it was great. My buddies, roommates were really supportive.
Michelle Rose 38:17
I'm like, alright, I want to ask you...
J.J. Colliier 38:19
Nice sewing machine.
Michelle Rose 38:21
...I was gonna ask you, what type did you buy?
J.J. Colliier 38:23
No, we still have a good laugh about it to this day, because, you know, my oldest friends from that era, like, Holy moly, man, you really made this work. And like, Yeah, it seems to be working. I bought a Janome in Charleston, West Virginia. My wife, Shannon was getting her Master's at WVU and I found a sewing machine shop, and I bought it and I showed up in her dorm and I was like, What do you think? So...and then I proceeded to leave for Colorado for a few months. So yeah, so it was a it was really a period of like, this, a bit like snowboarding where it's like, Okay, if I'm, if this is my little world where I can be successful, then I need to make it work. I need to work hard. And so it was the same thing with the sewing machine. It's like, I didn't know anything, but I was going to learn, you know. I had to make it.... I had to make it matter.
Michelle Rose 39:09
Yeah. What did she think about that?
J.J. Colliier 39:11
Well, she thought a little crazy, but she knew...she knew that I loved this topic, you know, and then I was really taken by the fashion. And this was fashion at the time and I really wanted to do I didn't really particularly want to go back into ski. I was trying to get out of ski and snowboard, because quite frankly, I felt... I wasn't in ski, sorry, I was only in snowboard... and in snowboard, because of some of my maybe buttoned up tendencies, I was maybe a little bit of a...not an outcast, but I always felt a little bit on the outside of snowboarding. too. I didn't do it the way a lot of other people did it and I've got my, I've got highs and lows on that for what it's worth. But so I was feeling like, Okay, not only am I aging out of this, but it's maybe not again, not my most natural thing. I haven't been good at it but, culturally, am I one of the insiders? No. And so it was like, Okay, what's, what's the next thing? Like, it's been great to me forever and ever. Thank you. But like, what now? And so now I had to make the design thing work.
Michelle Rose 40:15
And so in that design phase, how much at that point in time did you already know about fashion, Ralph Lauren, any of the brands? What, what was your exposure?
J.J. Colliier 40:27
Well, it's occurring to me now that I should be forever grateful to print. Because, you know, I didn't go to school in England or Italy for this, so right back to the BMX magazines, all I had was, you know, a stop at Barnes and Noble when I was on the road as a tech rep. So you know, the various high level $20 fashion mags that showed all the collections way before the internet? Like that was my intro. So I was looking closely at Jil, sander and Armani certainly, and...but Ralph, you know, we can talk about Ralph all day. He was the master of the dream more than, really, in a way that was different than the other brands. Some of those other brands had masterful adherence to design language. These were not words I was using '97. But, so I understood if you asked me describe our money, in five words, I could do it. But Ralph had really mastered, as far as I'm concerned, the dream, of the portrayal of the dream in a way that the other brands just didn't have quite as much texture, you know,
Michelle Rose 41:32
The storytelling. You know, they were masters.
J.J. Colliier 41:35
They had me hook, line and sinker, you know?
Michelle Rose 41:37
Yeah. Yeah. He's always been a master storyteller. I mean, you'd walk into any of his shops at any point in time. And you know exactly where you are.
J.J. Colliier 41:46
You know where you are. Yeah, no one has to tell you when you're in a Ralph Lauren store.
Michelle Rose 41:50
Yeah, I think there's elements of his work that still...he wasn't one of my absolute favorite designers. I was more of a modern... I loved Jil Sander. back in the 90's. I was going super modern, super futuristic. And, but, you know, and he'd been around a long time, I've been very into fashion since the early 80's As a young girl, and so I was always very aware of him. But whenever, as soon as I started designing and doing more lifestyle work, I started to really come to love his work and appreciate the materials. You know, like, for me, I think a lot of like, the natural leathers, the wood, the gray wool, the, you know, the just that kind of look, you can still see it in my life and in my home. Because he was so masterful with apparel, with home with lifestyle with everything, the horses, you know, every, every little piece, you can just feel all the textures. And they're very luxurious and very nurturing. I think of him as a nurturing, nurturing brand, in that sense.
J.J. Colliier 42:53
Yeah, that's true. It was. And my more modern tendencies had always been there because of childhood references that I didn't know were references yet. But you know, like, my whole life, nothing has informed my life more than a late 70's Porsche 911. But I didn't know how much it impacted me until much later in life.
Michelle Rose 43:17
That's what I wanted to kind of... before we dig into the design aspect of it.... because a lot of us as designers, we find that we're really passionate about certain things in our lives and we don't know why. But we find out later it's because they were really well designed inside and out. And you're really into, you know, clothing, and fashion, but you're really into cars. And then maybe more than that, I don't know if you're into bikes and stuff as well,
J.J. Colliier 43:51
A little bit but the cars have been, you know, for 40 years as... well for 20 years is a dream and then the next 20 years as an owner Yeah, so it's been, I've just been fortunate to have those opportunities to know what I wanted and to buy them and keep, you know, sort of flipping and trading and all that stuff. So..
Michelle Rose 44:10
How did that start? That started when you were young...
J.J. Colliier 44:13
iIt started again back to print in Banner Elk, and there was like this, you know, big being a resort town there was one person in town who we knew had a Porsche but I hadn't really noticed it until I saw it in, like, a road and track magazine and really started to understand that the 911, you know, the classic sort of round, frog-eyed Porsche, it was something that mattered to me. Like, a red Ferrari did not do it for me. A, you know, a black or silver or white 911 was my, that was the thing that that struck a chord for me. It was just, that's what... when then finally there was one sitting there and Banner Elk, a black one, with a tail with a whale tail that I got to just actually walk around and stare at. And it was just like, you know, you could hear these tings in my head going Ting, ting, ting!, like just hammering in lifelong love, you know, just no going back. It's just great,
Michelle Rose 45:07
Like, this is a time when none of us have phones and... there's no such like digital cameras to take pictures or anything. So it's what you, it's what you remember, or experience. And you see it in...
J.J. Colliier 45:19
Yeah, in magazines I couldn't take home, like I, you know, they were at the library at the local college. My mom and a legendary stroke must have sent away, you know, by mail, I had to get the 19 I guess it was 80 911 SC catalog from Porsche and I still have this mint 911 catalog. So whenever I wanted to see when I could see one, you know. It was great,
J.J. Colliier 45:20
Great parents.
J.J. Colliier 45:23
Yeah, masterstroke. I don't know.
Michelle Rose 45:49
That means everything. So what else? What else with that, like when you would talk about like, because these things that you know, the things that you've worked on, which we'll dig into a little bit more in the cars, the racing, there's a nice blend of beauty in the design and functionality, performance, you know, and luxury. What, what else? Would you package in there as something.....another....Is there any other passions that kind of sit in there with those for you?
J.J. Colliier 46:28
I mean, those I think you've nailed them. I mean, and just... not to belabor the 911 point, but think about it, this was a... a) it was European. So it was exotic to me, like, you know, European thing. It wins races. So the capability there you mentioned functionality, the capability is there. It's you know, there's this beauty to it, that was like, happen to strike a chord for me other people like a, you know, a flat Italian Ferrari or Lamborghini. I like the 911. And then yeah, there's, like ,back to that sort of stuff. It wasn't luxury in the classical sense. It wasn't a Rolls Royce, but it was beautifully designed and finished. And yeah, you felt like you could show up at a, you know, a hotel in St. Moritz, or run it down to the grocery store. Like it just had this versatility about it, that it and again, I wasn't thinking this way as a 10 year old. But this stuff was it, like, Porsche got me, like, they got their hooks in me as a brand because of all those things. And and it's just...and I pay close attention to things like that now in my work, because it's, like, why did they get me? Well, how did Oakley get me as a as a 13 year old, you know. I didn't have, whatever they were, $75 for sunglasses in 1985. But I scraped up and found a way to buy Oakleys, you know? And I liked their grips better than anybody else. These brands just found a way to get into my head and stay there. And I'm really taken by that.
Michelle Rose 47:57
And they come back forever and inform the work you do.
J.J. Colliier 48:01
Yeah, they do... forever.
Michelle Rose 48:02
I mean, I can see it in the work that you've done. I know, your work from spider, I know your work from Triple Aught Design. And it's, for all of us, that that's where we come from. That's what makes us tick and that's where our creativity kind of.... how it comes out. Do you have any specific things when it comes to... especially like the 911 and the colors that you love and the details that you know, have really infiltrated into, you know, the the ski wear and the outdoor gear that you have built?
J.J. Colliier 48:38
Well, it's a little... there's an inherent sort of taste level as I would say, which sounds like terribly pompous kind of like thing, but it's, it's really what I'm talking about. Like, people have different taste levels, designers do customers do. So I have kind of a fundamental baseline of, like, wanting the things I am associated with to meet the criteria that... most of the criteria that I just outlined for the 911, you know? But when I'm working with different brands, like, I feel like I learned so much at Ralph, you know, at Polo. I didn't go to school. I went to school at Ralph Lauren for six years, you know, and that's... people say that he has said that it's a fact. And so that design language, even though I was doing RLX, you know, where it wasn't all the things you outlined so eloquently earlier, you know? We did gray flannel, we did leather, but really, that was punctuation for a runway.RLXS was all about, you know, building authentic technical product and coming from Salomon, they hired me because they knew I knew technical product. But I still, you know, so we were referencing Ralph's car collection. If we did a yellow and black collections because of his yellow and black, you know, Ferrari 360. So it was that design language was... I knew what it was going in. And we had tremendous fun for years doing it. Spyder, shifting gears a little bit, that was a different world. I had grown up aspiring to have Spyder, I couldn't afford it growing up, I found a way to get a few pieces here and there, and then rode for them later.So I kind of knew it. But coming in now, 10 years later, as the head of product, you know, it's... all of a sudden, it's really my baby. And so the pressure now having been on like a friend of the family, all of a sudden it's my baby, that was gnarly. But I respected the heritage, you know, and we had an opportunity to really reinvent it. And those, you know, the race car references, the color and the color blocking, it's, you know, it's not for everybody, but I knew who it was for, and I knew how to level it up. And I had an amazing team. And we we, we had an amazing run at it. And even though the 911 stuff, for example, doesn't play back into Spyder the way it might play back into Polo, the proportion and the finishing and the details and the experience with touch points and all that. Absolutely, absolutely applied.
Michelle Rose 51:09
And you're getting to, with all of these, you're getting to design to high price points. I mean, you know, when I was coming in, in the early 2000s, doing skiwear it's like, that was how I was learning about skiwear. I was looking at Spyder, I was looking at RLX, all through that period of time. Of course wanting to do that at that level, and the brands that I was working for did not work skiwear and, you know, at that level, and so we were pulling inspiration, you know, from that. But it's also the... when you were talking about, you know, a taste level, and there is absolutely something about... it's not pompous, I mean, some people might think about, you know, we buy a brand, because we want a certain kind of ...what is it ?...identity. We want to be identified with that brand.
J.J. Colliier 51:13
Right. Yes,
Michelle Rose 51:16
It's different when you're coming in, like I didn't grow up with a lot of that and so I had to become exposed to it to see what was really nice, you know, be exposed to nice materials, be exposed to great design. And the more you're exposed to it, and you see how beautiful and wonderful, and the craftsmanship or the, you know, sure some things are just higher price points, but their materials are nicer, the details are nicer. You fall in love with that. And you once you get exposed, it's just like being exposed to really nice wine or really good cheese, or just really nice food or anything in life. It's hard to go back to where, maybe, you came from. And so your taste level changes because you get exposed to the possibilities that are out there. And then as a creative, you want to make the coolest possible shit that you can, right, you know? And so you're like, Well, of course I want to work with, you know, this wool and this really high level three layer fabric and I want to build these amazing... we had, you know, I was working on trying to relaunch the old brand, Raffe, which cambia had bought. And we were going to relaunch it as a women's fashion ski wear brand it did not go through, that never happened. But we worked on it and worked on it in conjunction with Nordstrom. But I was looking at, you know, really nice silver pulls with bamboo inlay and that type of thing, like the dreams that you know, you push your levels up. And so when you work with brands like that, you get exposed to higher levels. And then you get to bring that to the next place you go. So I can see that, you know, your experience of working with Salomon, and at that time, Ralph Lauren's RLX line, you know, trying to be really relevant as a sport line, they need the technical. And going to Spyder you get to bring also the technical and the fashion side. You know, and so you bring that piece to both of those companies over time.
J.J. Colliier 54:08
Yeah, that was...they were amazing experiences. And like most things, you know, Ralph does a bunch of runway but the ,you know, a lot of the businesses in entry price point stuff, which is great, because like, I don't, you know, it's not about exclusion, like, you know what I mean, like, getting to work with brands and have kind of carte blanche like we did at Polo was fine. It was certainly fun for a designer, but it also matters to me more than ever that the we build not just the stuff we wanted to make, but stuff that that people are drawn to and that they actually then buy and that they then keep for a long time. Because we know about the challenges with with our business. And so for me, it wasn't about building the most expensive or the most of anything, it was building things that people would like cherish and that's what I feel most, easily the most fortunate about my work.
Michelle Rose 55:03
Yeah. And to me the most sustainable business model, or at least it starts there.
J.J. Colliier 55:08
It should, it should start with quality. I mean, that was the running joke with Spyder was that we were like, you know, we'd see these guys on the mountain, like, That jackets from 1992. You know, it's 2012 and we would see these thing, we're like, How do we get that guy into a new jacket? But his, you know, his jacket was made 40 years ago with Japanese materials that Dave Jacobs paid, you know, to invest in his product because he wanted to make the best stuff...and the stuff was, there it is, 40 years later, and that person still loved it. I mean....
Michelle Rose 55:37
In that cycle, 40 years is cool again.
J.J. Colliier 55:40
Well, yeah, we did start to reference some of the big eagle you know, USA stuff at one point. But it's just the fact is, you know, if you... my Schoeller Salomon stuff, those, some of those prototypes, my dad was wearing one the other day from 2000. And that Schoeller, those Schoeller goods look as good as they did the day that product, you know, hit the market. And, you know, Harris Tweed, too, were sort of where it all started for me, really, if I look, you know, tick back again, my dad is kind of, had kind of a sad upbringing in Boston and goes through ROTC in high school and shows up... gets recruited to Bowdoin College to swim. And he shows up there with like his crappy state issued blazer and he's looking around, going, Yeah, I need a new blazer and he goes and buys his Harris Tweed jacket with probably every cent he had. And so for me for 40 years, the first time, I'm 52, the first time I heard that story, I've thought, Okay, file that away. Harris Tweed is good. And now, you know, now here I am, like, Harris Tweed is still my one of my favorite mills, you know, all time. That's a shocker. Big profound statement. Anyone who knows Harris Tweed is like, wow, cool. Congratulations, you and everybody. But it's like, oh, my God, and those materials look as good, the odd moth hole aside, his Harris Tweed stuff looks outstanding today. I mean, and so that's not luxury or hype. That's just quality and, okay, it's not, maybe not everyone can always have it. But like, if you're gonna do something, that's the way I want to do it. I don't really do... I'm kind of repelled by, by things that are overpriced because of hype. And I understand it, and maybe I'm being a tight ass, but like, I feel like you should build things that are representative of their price tag. Or vice versa, maybe it's vice versa. Yeah.
Michelle Rose 57:42
Quality and craftsmanship, I think, you know, the age that we grew up in with industrialization, just, you know, things got very, very cheap so there could be a lot of them. And we're finally starting to move away from that because we've seen what it's done to our environment, to our lives and whatnot. And I'm thankful for that, you know, that that the idea of fewer better things... that we spend a little bit more for the things that we really love that we're going to keep, you know? It's why I have more Pendleton wool blankets on my bed than any any polyester...
J.J. Colliier 58:15
Yeah, Target ones. Yeah. I know what you mean. And it's and it's hard, right? Because we know that not everyone can make that choice. But I also, I do believe, too, that a lot of people don't know that that is a choice. Education is massively lacking in terms of like, you know, helping share that some of those, you know, they're... they came long before Yvon, but that idea of buying fewer things better, I think is just not being broadcast adequately.
Michelle Rose 58:43
Yeah, it's the exposure, you know, and getting more of that out there.
J.J. Colliier 58:47
Yeah.
Michelle Rose 58:47
And luckily, I think we're seeing more, we've been seeing more of that through more design choices, like you know, better design at places like Target and whatnot have helped. It's not necessarily the best, you know, the best, always the best stuff. But as soon as you start making things a little bit nicer, and people start wanting nicer things, and we just need to make them last.
J.J. Colliier 59:10
Welll, and I don't mean to interrupt you. but I mentioned Target, I didn't mean to dig on Target on the blanket a minute ago. Target's actually one of the... is doing, your right, in women's wear, for example, really some really great looking stuff. And that T shirt will last 20 years if you want it to, but if you take care of it, the punch line is if someone's telling you that T shirt isn't cool anymore. That's really the problem. Like if you got rid of it long before it's the end of its serviceable life because somebody said it wasn't a cool t shirt, that's where we open up a whole fashion Pandora's box here that you know, as a hired Design Director, I should probably be careful being too hard on... but we know why the landfill looks the way it looks. Let's be honest.
Michelle Rose 59:54
Yeah, absolutely. It's the remarketing of new stuff and encouraging people to keep buying cheap new things. Also the awareness, I think, of where things are made, who's making them how much they're, you know, costing to make. If I'm gonna buy a $2.99 tank, tank top...
J.J. Colliier 1:00:12
I know, I know.
Michelle Rose 1:00:14
Nobody was paid well enough to make that thing happen. So...
J.J. Colliier 1:00:18
That is true. And like I said, this is a huge topic because, like, how do you make sure that people who need clothes, firsthand clothes, you know, that ...where they want to live their life like the rest of us, have access to things that are affordable and nice. Nice enough to portray themselves in the world the way they want to and dream to? I mean, I'm close to this because I grew up very modestly, you know, I've become a bit of a snob but I wasn't born one. So I'm like, so I'm acutely aware... acutely aware of seeing things that I wanted and couldn't have. And I think that's another thing where I'm like, I just know I'm not as cool as these other kids because you know, I'm first generation Nike, too. Think about it... like you, you and me both, like 8 years old and I'm like, Wait a minute, it's obvious that those sneakers are cooler than mine and I'm feeling a little bit less than because of it. And that's the first time I started to realize, it's like, Oh, this matters, you know? Little 8 year old punk with my shoes from the PX, the Postal Exchange on base, you know. Nothing wrong with my sneakers. But as soon as I realized there was something better out there, it really hurt.
Michelle Rose 1:01:28
Yeah, yeah. And that's that other awareness... you become aware of what you don't... and that comparison.
J.J. Colliier 1:01:33
Yeah, it... and that, if we want to dig in, I mean, if you don't think that impacted my desire to like, be... somehow do something cooler. It certainly, it certainly did.
Michelle Rose 1:01:49
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