Vygotsky Podcast

On the topic of education, Peter Smagorinsky has likely WRITTEN more words than I have read. Though long, our conversation was not linear, and listening out of order might be the ideal way to go.  (Originally published January 20, 2020 at Chats about CHT http://tiny.cc/kmylsz)

Highlights include: 

1:00 - After 31 years, is Peter an expert? 

3:19 - Anthony most certainly is not (feel free to skip to 9:22) 

9:22 - Peter uniquely describes higher and lower mental functions 

13:45 - Challenges of reading Vygotsky and studying 'murky' social concepts 

17:10 - Why isn't there scientific agreement on 'good teaching'? 

21:58 - Where would Peter locate himself on the purist to pragmatist spectrum? 

26:56 - The difference between 'scaffolding' and ZPD -- and ZND! 

32:43 - Learning how to write like a scholar - and like a public columnist 

34:32 - The emotional confidence needed to write simply 

36:40 - Advice for teaching short-term and long-term simultaneously 

41:42 - Vygotsky's "great overlooked work" & the topic of 'deficit thinking' 

44:55 - Disastrous utopianism and equalitarian blindspots 

48:05 - Was Vygotsky more interested in how thinking develops or in how to develop thinking? 

50:21 - Distinguishing the unsavory from the useful (includes a bit on perspective-hopping)   

1:00:33 - What does Vygotsky have to offer teachers? (Peter's unique take) 

1:11:55 - (Vygotskian) frameworks and methodologies for Peter's research 

1:22:23 - Why do 5-paragraph papers get a bad rap? 

1:25:00 - Rounding out Peter's methodology (telos, setting, and tools is "a way to do it") 

1:28:32 - MLK, Vygotsky, nonviolence, and violence 

1:34:32 - The development of individuals and the development of collectives 

1:38:36 - A.I. and Vygotsky 

1:41:25 - Peter recommends . . .  

References: "Smagorinsky on Meaning - Text, Tool, Culture" (Excerpt) - http://tiny.cc/gbvkjz 

"What Does Vygotsky Provide for the 21st-Century Language Arts Teacher?" - http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/LA/LA2013.pdf 

Peter's public essays - http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/Vita/vitaweb.htm#PublicEssays 

"Educating the Public on the Public's Terms: An Open Letter to Academics" - https://writerswhocare.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/educating-the-public-on-the-publics-terms-an-open-letter-to-academics/

Chat 2 with Nikolai Veresov, continued.  (Originally published Jan 10, 2020 at Chats about CHT http://tiny.cc/kmylsz)

Highlights include: 

1:00 - Nikolai's own role in clarifying Vygotsky's research contributions 

5:00 - Should Conservatives be wary of this theory? 

8:55 - Why was this theory created; what is its subject matter? (the importance of contextualizing the theory, and how it is distinct) 

15:21 - The Why: 5 principles for conducting Vygotskian experiments (Nikolai's rationale) 

21:32 - The What: 5 principles for conducting Vygotskian experiments (Crucial distinction: "We do not have objects under study; we do not have functions under study; we have PROCESSES under study") 

25:03 - The Which: 5 principles for conducting Vygotskian experiments ("I select the principle that helps me to answer my research question") 

30:50 - To what extent was Vygotsky susceptible to motivated reasoning and/or confirmation bias? 

32:45 - The principle of drama (or category, or contradiction) 

39:20 - Nikolai and colleagues' research studies using the principle of drama (includes the long quote cited below) 

44:10 - A Vygotskian experiment with children: "the process of development of children's executive functions in the playworld" (paper here: http://tiny.cc/g73liz) 

47:46 - A Vygotskian experiment with adults: "a new system of professional development for school psychologists" (paper here: http://tiny.cc/lh4liz) 

53:45 - The principle of the "buds" of development   

"What makes us different is that we went through different contradictions, collisions, challenges.  As a psychologist, I'm interested in situations where we can specially create these dramatic collisions - for children and for adults - and then we look: Do they have enough higher psychological functions to overcome this?  If they can not, how they can begin to interact with others in order to drink from this source of development -- because Vygotsky said that social environment is the source of development.  But what does it mean, 'social environment is the source of development?' What does it mean that the river is the source of the water?  The river is the source of the water only when somebody comes to the river and starts drinking from it. "  

For more on the 5 principles: 

http://nveresov.narod.ru/KIP.pdf - Nikolai's paper, "Introducing cultural historical theory: main concepts and principles of genetic research methodology" 

http://tiny.cc/0oe4hz - my short article, "How to Use a Vygotskian Approach: a short guide for teachers & researchers"

Chat 2 with Vygotskian psychologist, Nikolai Veresov.  (Originally published Jan 10, 2020 at Chats about CHT http://tiny.cc/kmylsz)

Highlights include:

1:52 - The great puzzle of Vygotsky's time (The "Crisis of Psychology")

6:30 - Even Kant thought the crisis was unsolvable

9:22 - How to see the invisible (W. Wundt's experimental research challenge & discussion of Lower and Higher Psychological Functions, e.g., logical memory, voluntary attention, imagination)

19:50 - Why did Wundt separate LPF and HPF, and how did he study HPF?

22:43 - Vygotsky's main contribution (not just theory but *new method*)

Key point: when something is currently invisible, or inaccessible, (e.g., HPFs), see if you can go back to its infancy and track its development before it "disappears underground"

http://nveresov.narod.ru/KIP.pdf - see Nikolai's paper, "Introducing cultural historical theory: main concepts and principles of genetic research methodology"

This is the first of a series of chats with Vygotskian psychologist,  Nikolai Veresov, who discusses the enduring relevance and popularity of  Vygotsky's work, distinctions between learning and development,  continuing misconceptions of ZPD, the value of cultivating difficulty,  and key principles for conducting Vygotskian experiments.  (Originally published Jan 10, 2020 at Chats about CHT http://tiny.cc/kmylsz)

Highlights include: 

1:04 - Our target audience & our main goals 

2:01 - The enduring relevance of Vygotsky's theory -- and the challenge of understanding it accurately  

6:49 - Huge interest in the theory is developing outside of academia 

9:55 - "Vygotsky discovered the fundamental laws of the cultural development the human being" 

11:37 - Learning vs. Development (not all learning is developmental) 

18:27 - ZPD is only one, and not the main, concept of cultural-historical theory 

22:49 - Is this a blank slate theory, or something else? 

26:28 - We can't understand zone of proximal Development until we understand Development 

27:26 - "ZPD as a concept, used everywhere, is a victim of misunderstanding" 

36:00 - Are our objectives merely Task-oriented or Developmentally-oriented? 

43:04 - 5 Principles for Designing and Conducting a Vygotskian Experiment 

55:44 - Principle 2: the necessity of Drama, Collision, Contradiction (V's General Law) 

1:00:56 - How Vygotsky applied dialectics to psychology (no development without contradiction)  

1:07:38 - Advice for teachers: Cultivate Frustration, Create Small Crises, Help Find Solutions 

1:10:11 - Relationship between personal dramas & personal values 

1:15:33 - Is the Trump era a collective drama, or category? Collective development?   

Dog playing Jenga: http://tiny.cc/ul55hz  

Referenced sources:  "How to Use a Vygotskian Approach: a short guide for teachers & researchers" (Barra 2019) - http://tiny.cc/0oe4hz 

"Nikolai Veresov’s video-lecture, Fu Jen Catholic University, Taipei, Taiwan" (Veresov 2010) - http://tiny.cc/hse4hz 

"Reading 'Thinking and Speech' (Vygotsky)" (Veresov 2010)- http://tiny.cc/0re4hz 

“Zone of proximal development (ZPD): the hidden dimension?” (Veresov 2004) - http://tiny.cc/sse4hz 

"The zone of proximal development in Vygotsky’s analysis of learning and instruction" (Chaiklin 2003) - http://tiny.cc/d315hz

Peter Smagorinsky speaks about his concrete and abstract understandings of and experiences with Vygotsky's theory of concepts.  (Recorded January 2012 and published Jan 3, 2020 at Chats about CHT http://tiny.cc/kmylsz)

Highlights include: 

0:31 - challenges (and rewards) of reading Vygotsky without the benefit of mentors  

5:00 - many topics are at play re: Vygotsky and concepts  

5:48 - why Peter is interested in concepts (as an Educator and a Landscaper)  

7:33 - difficult concepts are rarely learned without a cost (plants and otherwise)  

10:00 - concepts of good teaching are hard to pin down (social world is less cut & dry than biological)  

14:40 - spontaneous vs scientific concepts aren't so neatly divided  

19:30 - sturdy concepts are produced by the interplay between experiential & formal knowledge 

22:38 - studying how concepts develop: twisting path or twisting pretzel? 

37:37 - the link between concepts & happiness (the roles of affect and metaexperience) 

46:30 - failure, perseverance, and concepts 

50:31 - word-meaning and concepts 

58:09 - Vygotsky, concepts, and death   

Peter's book, VYGOTSKY AND LITERACY RESEARCH: A METHODOLOGICAL FRAMEWORK, winner of the prestigious David H. Russell Research Award, can be found here: sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/practice-of-research-method/vygotsky-and-literacy-research/

Jan. 27, 2012 interview on Vygotsky's theory of concepts with Andy Blunden, author of Concepts, A Critical Approach (available here: brill.nl/concepts). Part 2/2: Andy discusses the development of true concepts, covering topics such as word meaning & definitions, artifacts & actions, social knowledge, ideal lines of development, spontaneous & scientific concepts, and flowers & freeways.  (Originally published at Chats about CHT http://tiny.cc/kmylsz)

Highlights include: 

1:00 - "The first thing to get straight is that Vygotsky does not have a typology of concepts" 

2:36 - Two lines of development: spontaneous and scientific concepts  

7:28 - "Fundamentally, concepts are transmitters or containers or expressions or forms, whatever you like, of the wisdom of many generations...passed down through the generations by various means"  

8:47 - Concepts are problems and solutions to those problems are encapsulated in a word and the systems of practice around that word, and possibly also in an artifact of some kind  

12:08 - "A true concept has to incorporate that element of the transmission of socially, historically acquired knowledge."  

15:58 - "Origin, path of development: one begins from book knowledge, the other begins from immediate personal interaction; any actual concept has its roots in both"  

18:03 - "Everyday life is penetrated by knowledge that comes out of institutions"  

20:27 - A concept is like a city...is a many sided thing, and it's realized in many ways  

23:57 - "A concept is like a cloud, and word-meanings rain from this cloud" 26:11 - The relationship between the words 'flower' and 'rose' 

29:56 - Romance and problem-solving ("ordinary, everyday people are becoming aficionados of the social sciences") 

33:38 - "True" concepts - what is true about a concept is inaccessible through "spontaneous" alone 

37:56 - "Vygotsky was an original thinker; the words didn't exist for what he was trying to say" 

40:19 - "A unit of life -- a unit of a culture to be more specific -- is a concept, and more specifically it's a solved puzzle; it's the identification of a problem which arose in a specific way of life, and the naming of it, and the institution of a series of related practices organized around that solution.  So that's what a concept it."  

44:30 - "In the capacity of a teacher, V knew that real conceptual knowledge can only be acquired when it's the means to the solution to a problem"  

49:49 - A compelling challenge for teachers: designing relevant instruction with Concept Development in mind (i.e., concepts as solutions to compelling problem)   

"That's what a concept is: it's the identification of a problem and a solution that goes with it (or the solution and the problem that goes with it) within a specific system of practice, or institution -- because if you don't have some system of practice then problems never arise, because people just do something else."  

References: 

Paula Towsey on the Blocks Experiment: http://tiny.cc/ewb9hz  

Andy Blunden's vimeo channel: http://tiny.cc/q2b9hz 

CHAT on Vimeo: http://tiny.cc/z0b9hz

2012 interview with Andy Blunden on the real preconditions for independent thinking!  (The sound quality is old.) In this video, Andy discusses "pre-conceptual" processes of psychological development, including syncretic, complexive, and pseudoconceptual thinking, as well as pre- and potential concepts. (Originally published December 29, 2019 at Chats about CHT http://tiny.cc/kmylsz)

Highlights include:

0:15 - Syncretic thought-forms (the view from a speeding train in a foreign country)

3:35 - Complexes (different types of shaky beginnings of synthesis, via associations, and abstraction)

12:29 - Collection complexes (fork, knife, cup - functional associations by everyday situations)

14:55 - Pseudconcepts (learner uses an adult word, but not in the same way)  19:31 - Potential concepts (animals can form potential concepts; e.g., trained pigeon habituated to red button)

23:27 - Pre-concepts and more

30:00 - Andy nicely summarizes the psychological functions that correlate with preconceptual thinking

Andy Blunden is the author of Concepts, A Critical Approach (available here: brill.nl/concepts). This is the first of two interviews on Vygotsky's theory of concepts (Part 2 is here: https://youtu.be/7UsQRLCpdiw, or here: vimeo.com/35819238).

Great quote:  this chat is about "the development of psychological functions which are preconditions to operating as an independent person out there in the social world: dealing with ideology, professional responsibilities, raising your own family, and so on. You need certain psychological functions s before you can even make a beginning on that. . . . When you go into the big wide world...you begin to learn a different much broader type of thinking which entails inheriting and making use of the knowledge of all the past generations."

An open invitation to anyone willing to enlighten me. (Originally published February 20, 2020 at Chats about CHT http://tiny.cc/kmylsz)

What the heck does this mean?    

"[A better understanding of child psychology is possible] . . . only if we radically change our representation of child development and take into account that it is a complex dialectical process that is characterized by a complex periodicity, disproportion in the development of separate functions, metamorphoses or qualitative transformation of certain forms into others, a complex merging of the processes of evolution and involution, a complex crossing of external and internal factors, a complex process of overcoming difficulties and adapting" (Vygotsky 1997, Vol 4. pp. 98–99)  

Thanks!