WASSAP: The Africa-West Asia Podcast

In this episode of the WASSAP podcast, hosts Desirée Custers and Hubert Kinkoh are joined by Hafsa Halawa, independent consultant and mediation expert, and Dr. Asnake Chanie, political scientist and Associate Fellow at CARPO, to discuss the growing interconnectedness between the Horn of Africa and the Gulf.

The conversation explores how geography, trade, migration, development cooperation, and regional politics have created new forms of interdependence between both regions. Hafsa and Asnake reflect on how Gulf engagement has transformed the development landscape of the Horn of Africa, the opportunities and challenges this presents for governance and political legitimacy, and the ways in which economic, political, and security interests increasingly overlap across the Red Sea.

A central focus of the episode is water diplomacy and the relationship between the Horn of Africa, Egypt, and the Gulf. The guests discuss the implications of the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam (GERD), questions of water governance, climate change, and food security, as well as the role of diplomacy in managing competing national interests.

They also reflect on Egypt's growing engagement in the Horn of Africa and whether a more integrated Red Sea regional order is beginning to emerge. Looking ahead, Hafsa and Asnake identify some of the key developments likely to shape Horn–Gulf relations over the coming decade, including maritime security, regional competition, and questions of access to the sea.

About the WASSAP podcast

The WASSAP: the Africa - West Asia Podcast translates the findings of a three-year research project on West Asian (Gulf)–Sub-Saharan African relations into an accessible, engaging audio format. It explores how economic, political, cultural, religious, and security ties between selected Gulf countries and African partners are evolving and why these shifts matter globally, particularly for Europe.

Hosts of the podcast are Desirée Custers (Project Manager, CARPO) & Hubert Kinkoh (Senior Researcher, CARPO).

About the WASSAP project

The project explores the multi-dimensional and complex relations between selected Gulf countries (Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Iran) and four Sub-Saharan countries (South Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, Ethiopia). It aims to deconstruct and analyze their economic networks, cultural and religious affiliations, and political and security cooperation. Based on empirical research, the project provides a better understanding of Gulf-African exchange, its challenges and opportunities, as well as its implications for Europe. The project is financed by the Robert Bosch Foundation and will run for three years.

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Big thanks for the support to our editor Marco Bussi.

In this episode of the WASSAP podcast, hosts Desirée Custers and Hubert Kinkoh are joined by Professor Anne K. Bang, historian at the University of Bergen and a leading scholar of the Indian Ocean world, to explore the historical and cultural connections linking East Africa and the Arabian Peninsula.

The conversation challenges the idea of the Red Sea as a barrier between regions and instead presents it as a space of mobility, exchange, and connectivity. Professor Bang explains how maritime trade routes connected coastal communities across the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean, facilitating the movement of merchants, scholars, religious leaders, manuscripts, and ideas over centuries. She highlights the role of trade, Islamic scholarly networks, and social relations in shaping interconnected societies on both shores.

Drawing on her research on Zanzibar, Professor Bang discusses questions of identity, belonging, and cosmopolitanism in port cities that have long been embedded in wider transregional networks. She also reflects on how historical patterns of exchange challenge simple centre-periphery narratives and why policymakers and researchers should pay closer attention to the complex identities and longstanding connections that continue to underpin Africa-West Asia relations today.

About the WASSAP podcast

Hosts of the podcast are Desirée Custers (Project Manager, CARPO) & Hubert Kinkoh (Senior Researcher, CARPO).

About the WASSAP project

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Big thanks for the support to our editor Marco Bussi.

In this episode of the WASSAP podcast, hosts Désirée Custers and Hubert Kinkoh are joined by Alan Boswell, Horn of Africa Director at the International Crisis Group and host of The Horn podcast, to explore the growing interconnectedness of the Horn of Africa, the Gulf, and the wider Red Sea region.

The conversation traces how Gulf engagement in the Horn has evolved over the past decade, examining the impact of Gulf rivalries, the war in Sudan, tensions in Yemen, and the fallout from the Iran crisis on regional security dynamics. Alan discusses how conflicts across the Red Sea increasingly spill over into the Horn, creating new patterns of competition, cooperation, and strategic alignment.

A central theme of the episode is the relationship between regional geopolitics and state agency. The discussion highlights how actors in the Horn of Africa navigate external rivalries and partnerships while pursuing their own interests and ambitions. Looking ahead, Alan reflects on the challenges facing regional diplomacy and why the growing integration of the Horn, the Gulf, and the wider West Asia region remains one of the most important trends shaping the region's future.

About the WASSAP podcast

The WASSAP: the Africa - West Asia Podcast translates the findings of a three-year research project on West Asian (Gulf)–Sub-Saharan African relations into an accessible, engaging audio format. It explores how economic, political, cultural, religious, and security ties between selected Gulf countries and African partners are evolving and why these shifts matter globally, particularly for Europe.

Hosts of the podcast are Desirée Custers (project manager, CARPO) & Hubert Kinkoh (Senior Researcher, CARPO)

About the WASSAP project

The project explores the multi-dimensional and complex relations between selected Gulf countries (Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Iran) and four Sub-Saharan countries (South Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, Ethiopia). It aims to deconstruct and analyze their economic networks, cultural and religious affiliations, and political and security cooperation. Based on empirical research, the project provides a better understanding of Gulf-African exchange, its challenges and opportunities, as well as its implications for Europe. The project is financed by the Robert Bosch Foundation and will run for three years.

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In this episode of the WASSAP podcast, hosts Désirée Custers and Hubert Kinkoh explore the evolving economic relationship between Africa and the Gulf in the context of an increasingly multipolar world.

They are joined by Aparupa Chakravarti, a strategist working at the intersection of geopolitics, business, development, and social impact across Africa and the Gulf. Drawing on her extensive experience across both regions, Aparupa discusses why Gulf countries have become interesting partners for African states and how their investment approaches differ from those of more traditional external actors.

The conversation also examines emerging sectors of cooperation beyond the commonly discussed areas of ports and infrastructure, including renewable energy, technology, artificial intelligence, and the creative economy. A central focus of the episode is African agency, highlighting how African governments and businesses are shaping the terms of engagement with Gulf partners and moving beyond extractive economic models.

Lastly, the discussion explores how Africa–Gulf relations are being influenced by broader global shifts towards multipolarity, before turning to the role of people-to-people connections, education, philanthropy, migration, and remittances in sustaining long-term partnerships between the two regions. Looking ahead, Aparupa argues that talent flows and human capital may become one of the defining features of Africa–Gulf relations over the coming decade.

About the WASSAP podcast

WASSAP: the Africa - West Asia Podcast translates the findings of a three-year research project on West Asian (Gulf)–Sub-Saharan African relations into an accessible, engaging audio format. It explores how economic, political, cultural, religious, and security ties between selected Gulf countries and African partners are evolving and why these shifts matter globally, particularly for Europe.

Hosts of the podcast are Desirée Custers (project manager, CARPO) & Hubert Kinkoh (Senior Researcher, CARPO)

About the WASSAP project

The project explores the multi-dimensional and complex relations between selected Gulf countries (Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Iran) and four Sub-Saharan countries (South Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, Ethiopia). It aims to deconstruct and analyze their economic networks, cultural and religious affiliations, and political and security cooperation. Based on empirical research, the project provides a better understanding of Gulf-African exchange, its challenges and opportunities, as well as its implications for Europe. The project is financed by the Robert Bosch Foundation and will run for three years.

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Big thanks for the support to our editor Marco Bussi.

In this special World Cup episode of the WASSAP podcast, we explore how football is increasingly shaping relations between Africa and the Gulf, from the expanded 2026 tournament to Saudi Arabia’s hosting ambitions for 2034.

Host Desirée Custers is joined by Hubert Kinkoh and Dr. Sebastian Sons to examine how football has evolved into a field of geopolitical competition, diplomacy, and strategic engagement. The discussion highlights the growing role of Gulf states as key actors in global sports and unpacks how major tournaments and investments are embedded in broader political and economic agendas.

At the same time, the episode considers how these dynamics extend beyond elite football. It touches on the role of Sport for Development (S4D) initiatives and the ways in which football can contribute to education, youth empowerment, and social inclusion, particularly in African contexts.

The conversation also reflects on how these developments affect African stakeholders — from national federations to local football ecosystems — raising important questions about agency, sustainability, and the distribution of benefits within these evolving partnerships.

The WASSAP podcast is supported by the Robert Bosch Foundation.

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In this episode of the WASSAP podcast, we explore the role of energy, ports, and infrastructure corridors in shaping Gulf–Africa relations.

Hosts Desirée Custers and Hubert Kinkoh are joined by Dr. Maddalena Procopio and Dr. May Darwich, who provide insights into how Gulf states are expanding their economic engagement across Africa through investments in energy, logistics, and port infrastructure.

The discussion examines the structural drivers behind these developments, including shifting global economic dynamics and the strategic repositioning of Gulf actors. It also highlights how African governments engage with and leverage these partnerships to advance national priorities.

Importantly, the episode moves beyond macro-level dynamics to explore how infrastructure projects impact local communities, labour markets, and social relations, demonstrating how global economic transformations are experienced on the ground.

Overall, the episode highlights a dynamic relationship shaped by interdependence, strategic positioning, and evolving forms of agency.

The WASSAP podcast is supported by the Robert Bosch Foundation.

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In this episode of the WASSAP podcast, we explore a less frequently discussed dimension of Africa–West Asia relations: Iran’s engagement with the African continent and how African actors navigate their relationships with Iran.

Hosts Désirée Custers and Hubert Kinkoh are joined by Ambassador Frederic Gateretse‑Ngoga and Dr. Hamid Talebian, who bring institutional and research perspectives on Iran–Africa relations. Together, they unpack how Iran engages with African countries across diplomatic, economic, security, and cultural domains, and how its approach compares to that of Gulf actors.

The conversation also situates Iran–Africa relations within broader geopolitical and security dynamics, including the interconnections between the Red Sea, the Horn of Africa, and West Asia, as well as the impact of global conflicts and shifting power structures.

A key focus of the episode is African agency, highlighting how African states and institutions actively manage their partnerships with Iran — leveraging relationships, navigating global rivalries, and pursuing their own strategic interests. At the same time, the episode addresses risks such as economic shocks, security spillovers, and geopolitical competition, while pointing to opportunities for African actors to strengthen coordination, economic integration, and strategic autonomy.

The WASSAP podcast is supported by the Robert Bosch Foundation.

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In this episode of the WASSAP podcast, we take a closer look at how African agency unfolds in real-world partnerships with Gulf countries.

Moving from abstract conceptualization of agency to concrete examples, hosts Désirée Custers and Hubert Kinkoh are joined by Dr. Bob Wekesa and Dr. Amare Aweke, who bring perspectives from South Africa and Ethiopia. Together, they explore how African actors engage with Gulf partners in areas such as investment, infrastructure, and regional security.

Drawing on their research and policy experience, the guests highlight how African countries are not simply responding to external influence, but are actively shaping their partnerships and navigating opportunities, managing risks, and pursuing their own strategic priorities.

The episode reveals a dynamic and evolving relationship marked by negotiation, interdependence, and shifting global dynamics, where African agency plays a central role in defining the future of Africa – West Asia relations.

The WASSAP podcast is supported by the Robert Bosch Foundation.

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In this inaugural episode of WASSAP: The Africa-West Asia Podcast, hosts Désirée Custers and Hubert Kinkoh introduce the WASSAP project (West Asia – Sub‑Saharan Africa Partnerships in Flux) and set the stage for the podcast series.

Together with Jan Hanrath, CEO and co-founder of CARPO, and Dr Sebastian Sons, Senior Researcher of CARPO, the episode explores why relations between Gulf countries and Sub‑Saharan Africa are becoming increasingly strategic, how these partnerships are changing in a multipolar global order, how they different between Gulf countries, and why they matter for policymakers, researchers, and European audiences alike.

A central focus of the discussion is WASSAP’s flagship publication which introduces the NML-framework (Networkability, Maneuverability, and Leveragability) as a novel lens for understanding agency in Gulf-Africa relations. The conversation highlights how African actors exercise strategic agency and challenges common assumptions that frame these relationships as one‑sided or purely driven by Gulf states.

CARPO Study: Agency in Flux: Networkability, Maneuverability, and Leveragability between West Asia and Sub‑Saharan Africa (published November 2025)

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