Water Prairie Chronicles Podcast

Show Notes:

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

Welcome to another enlightening episode of Water Prairie Chronicles! In this captivating interview, Tonya is joined by Occupational Therapist Kristen Jaslowich, a specialist in early intervention for children aged zero to three years. Kristen’s expertise in infant mental health and trauma-informed care makes this conversation invaluable for parents and caregivers seeking to better understand their child’s sensory development and integration.

Prepare to dive deep into the fascinating world of sensory integration in young children. Kristen sheds light on the crucial role sensory experiences play in laying the foundation for all subsequent learning and motor coordination. Get ready to explore the eight senses, including enteroception, vestibular, and proprioception, and how they shape a child’s ability to interact effectively with their environment.

Throughout the interview, Tonya and Kristen discuss common red flags that might indicate sensory challenges in children, from sensory avoidance to sensory-seeking behaviors. Kristen offers practical insights on the importance of seeking appropriate support and interventions for children with sensory integration issues.

Join us as we unravel the complexities of sensory development and its impact on a child’s overall well-being. Whether you’re a parent, caregiver, or simply curious about early childhood development, this episode promises to equip you with valuable insights and strategies to support your child’s sensory journey.

******************

This podcast episode provides entertainment and educational content. It is not a replacement for professional medical advice. For specific questions about your child’s sensory integration, development, or health, consult with their pediatrician or a qualified therapist. The host and guest are not liable for actions based on the information discussed. Always seek professional advice for individualized assessments and recommendations.

*******************

Connect with Kristen:

Resource mentioned during this episode:

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used:

“LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

 Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Kristen M Jaslowich has worked as an occupational therapist for more than 30 years. She currently works in the field with 0-3 year olds and their families. She is a certified infant massage instructor. Kristen holds a strong interest in infant mental health and trauma informed care. She has learned through her life experiences to go with her gut, but has also experienced the wonder if it is truly a gut instinct or a biased memory, thoughts in her head, or something else. With more and more research on the gut being the second brain, she started her journey to learn more about gut instincts, the science behind them, and how to trust them.

Kristen lives in New Mexico, USA with her partner, Kenneth, her dog, Flaca, and cats Jack and Lloyd. In her free time, she enjoys anything and everything outside – especially hiking, camping, and skiing. She loves to travel and immerse herself in other cultures. Kristen also crafts jewelry and sews.

Full Transcript of Interview:

Tonya: So welcome back to Water Prairie. We appreciate you joining us today. I have with me today, Kristen Jaslowich. And Kristen has worked as an occupational therapist for more than 30 years. She’s currently working in the field with zero to three year olds and their families, of course. And she’s a certified infant massage instructor.

Kristen holds a strong interest in infant mental health and trauma informed care. And she’s a member of the New Mexico Infant Mental Health Association. Kristen, welcome to Water Prairie.

Kristen: Thanks so much.

I’m looking forward to our conversation today because this is a topic that we haven’t really dug into a lot yet.

Um, but before we do that, those that have been listening and Kristen, I’ve told you ahead of time, we’ve been playing a game this season called two truths and a lie with each of our guests. And so I’ve asked Kristen to bring in three facts about herself. Two of them being true and one being a lie. And if you’re listening, your job is to either in the comments on YouTube or on social media, on Instagram and on Twitter, to go find the post that matches this, this release and put in your guess of which two are true and which is the lie.

And a week after we post this, we’ll come back and post the answer so you can check your work and see if you’re right or not. So Kristen, do you have your three facts for me?

I do. So,

All right, what do you have?

All right. I almost majored in French in college. My summer job in college was a step aerobics instructor. My first cup of coffee I had at age 35.

Wow. Okay. So if the last one is true, I’m going to be interested in that one. I want to, I want more, more information on that, but we’ll have to wait a week to find out what the answer really is. So finish listening to this podcast and then go and place your guess on these.

So, Kristen, we’re going to be talking today about sensory integration, how it develops to, to, with children and some of the signs and things. But to get us started, can you explain what sensory integration is and how it relates to the development of young children?

Sure. So sensory integration is the ability to take in and register sensory information and then once it’s registered it, you need to process that information. . So by processing I mean figuring out is this a threat? Is this information something that I need to respond to? And then figuring out what that response is going to be, that sensory modulation.

Can I just ignore it? Do I need to go towards it and have a response? Is it a threat? If it is a threat, how am I going to respond? Am I going to withdraw? Am I going to, you know, fight, flight, freeze type response?

Right.

So, does that make, does that make sense how I explain that?

Yeah, so it’s taking in the input that’s around us and then how do we respond to that input?

Exactly.

Okay.

Yeah. So and our senses, so There are not five senses. There are eight.

Okay.

So along with seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, hearing, we also have Interoception. Interoception is the ability to sense our internal states. So, things like hunger, thirst, elimination needs, emotions. Those are all internal, interoceptive sense.

Um, and then there’s vestibular. And vestibular is the sense of where our body is in movement, our balance, and then there’s proprioception. And proprioception is the feedback that we get from our joints and muscles in different positions, and kind of where my body is in space. How much weight I’m putting on one leg versus the other.

That type of sensation. So there’s eight senses. So when you think of information coming in, it’s, you know, the lights in the room, it’s the feeling of the clothes and jewelry on my body. It’s how my hair is falling on my face. The taste in my mouth, you know, it’s all of that external information coming in and being able to process.

What does all of this sensory input mean, and how do I interact with it?

So as you’re mentioning this I’m thinking right so before before we’re even born we’re feeling some of those inputs already, but then I’m just thinking the shock of the first moments of, after birth even, just you’ve got light for the first time, you’ve got sounds coming in.

I’m, I’m just amazed thinking of how, how much the human body actually takes in, um, right away. And then, um, thinking of, of my children when they were in those early stages. It makes sense knowing, knowing that beyond just the, the five senses. everything else that’s being, that’s developing too, that they’re learning how to, how to take all those things in.

Um, so how. So, even just, just wrapping my head around the eight senses instead of the five senses. Um, so it, it makes sense for some of that as I’m thinking through, but can you clarify how like developing young children, how those senses relate to them?

For sure. So children, they learn through sensory experience.

So having things like textured books, where they have to touch the sandpaper of the cat tongue and things like that. Those experiences are really, are really important for the child to learn what it feels like to take in those different textures. And to interact with all that information in the world,and how to do so. So sensory play, when you introduce a new sensory experience and they receive that information, the child’s then able to interpret and learn how to interact. And when you think of the more experience that child’s able to attend to multiple sensory input then they can learn how to filter out what’s important, what’s not.

So I’m listening to the teacher’s voice and not the humming of the air conditioner or the heater in the back of the classroom. And that you can filter that unimportant stuff out so that you can focus on what you, what your nervous system needs to be attending in that moment.

Right, right. So the, um, I like the connection that you made with those sensory books.

Because when, when I was reading them to my children when they were younger, they were just fun books, but I never even thought about the fact that they actually were serving a purpose with exposing them, especially for my daughter who had, um, tactile defensiveness. Um, it was really good for her to be able to touch the softness and in a safe environment with that. But I hadn’t even thought about the fact that that was actually developing skills for her beyond it just being a fun book to touch, you know. So nice.

Yeah, that, that, that sensory reception is, is really important. The sensory system develops, there’s, there’s a Pyramid of Learning visual that I can share with you.

That maybe you can put in the newsletter or the episode notes or something. Um, but in this, in this pyramid of learning, the sensory system is down at the bottom of the pyramid. All of that sensory development happens first before motor coordination. Before, um, any kind of, of postural stability. You know, the child’s being, the child’s being held, and kind of on day one, skin to skin contact with mom, nose, turn my, I feel the sensation, I smell the breast milk, turn my head.

And so, so things like that, like there are some sensory experiences that are already integrated at birth. And then it just kind of snowballs from there with, you’re still maybe supporting your child, their costal stability, but when they hear or see the rattle going by, they’re already like focused in on it and maybe, you know, hearing it and turning their head towards the sound of it.

As you’re still supporting them, all of that, all of that sensory information is the start of development before you, you need that feedback from your muscles and your joints in certain positions before you can make a motor plan to crawl. You, you, all of that, all of that feedback and you need the motivation to want to crawl.

So you need to be able to make sense of some visual information coming in that motivates you to want to crawl towards something, right? Like, so, so it’s, it’s very important to development.

So our, our children who are visually impaired. Would they develop some of those from, from their sense of hearing as far as wanting to know what it’s, that they’re hearing

for sure.

Okay.

You know, um, a primary caregiver can be off in the distance clapping or ringing a, a bell and they’ll know that echolocation will be coming in for a visually impaired child, um, unless there are also problems with hearing pretty well, where they’re going to be able to locate and be motivated to make a motor plan towards that sound.

Right.

So exactly. You’re just changing that. You could do scent as well for visually impaired.

Oh yeah.

Um,

right.

So yeah, there’s, there’s other modes of kind of getting in there, but that motivation to want to move towards a sensory experience, our brain is not going to want to move towards a sensory experience that we’re not fully able to register and process.

When that happens, we’re going to go more into an avoidance because our nervous system is protecting us from, if it is coming in as foreign, we’re not motivated.

So what are some of the, um, now we’re talking about really young children at this point. So what are some of the common red flags that might indicate that there’s a challenge or a concern for a child?

So one of the things that I just described like that, what we call sensory avoidance. Where a child may be avoiding certain toys, um, maybe is really, really difficult to keep clothes on. I know a lot of toddlers like to run around in their diaper and stuff, but really full on meltdown with clothes on as if…

The, the clothes are like hurting them. Um, right. They could be if they’re not fully perceiving and, and registering the feeling of the material on their skin. And if it gets registered as kind of muted and not a full connection there, then again, it’s this foreign object on my skin. Get it off of me. And if it’s, if it’s really that very, um, just meltdown response to, to clothing or very, very frightened to touch certain textures, that real hyper withdrawal with it, um, that kind of, that kind of avoidance, that’s going to be really difficult to, um, develop and kind of live in our very sensory rich world, and there are ways to help develop it so that you are able to register more properly.

So that would that would be one I think of high pain threshold. When you have a really high pain threshold these kids that I’m now I’m thinking of older kids that they’re out at recess or something fall off the swing and they don’t cry and everything’s fine and two days later it’s still red and swollen and the parents like yeah, we finally brought him in and they broke their arm. Right, but they seem fine about it. That’s again not quite fully registering pain And, and pain is obviously important. So when I think of my toddlers, you know, I think of the kids that when they’re first learning to walk and they fall and as a witness to that fall, you’re thinking, wow, that must have really hurt and they get up and just wipe it off and keep going and, and they’re not coming for the hug or the hour or the anything.

Right then, yeah, that, that’s something that can be indicative of challenges in this sensory integration area. Very picky eating. Kids that are real picky eaters. So again, avoidance, that sensory avoidance of, um, avoiding certain textures of foods being, being really picky. That’s another example of that. So, then there’s, on the whole other end of the spectrum, the sensory seekers.

So, we know that little ones and even older kids can be really, really active. They’re meant to be active. But, when we see the activity in an impulsive and clumsy manner, where they’re, they’re kind of running…

Before almost before they know that they’re running like they’re, they’re on the run without any kind of motor plan at all. And there may be falling frequently these kids that the parents will tell me they’ll be on even ground with great lighting, like, in the hallway of the house. And be running and it’s like they trip over their own feet.

And I know toddlers can, can do that, but when it happens frequently. And so they’re kind of ahead of themselves. Kids that are in constant motion, that’s unorganized. So they’re just spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning. And then they’re running around the room chaotically. A little different than the child that might be climbing onto the couch, jumping off the couch, and going around the couch, and doing that over and over and over again.

There’s more organization to that, or being on like a riding toy and knocking blocks over. So, toddlers and kids are meant to be in a lot of motor play, but when it’s that unorganized, all over the place, very chaotic play all the time. That, that can be an indication of sensory seeking motor that an occupational therapist can be helpful in kind of ramping that down and helping them with that impulsivity so that they’re more safe with their motor actions and helping with some play activities that don’t have them so over stimulating themselves with the motor activities that they’re doing.

But structuring them in such a way where they’re getting that proprioceptive feedback, that heavy feedback from the muscles and the joints, so that it gives more information to the sensory system that makes sense to them, to kind of slow down and do that heavy, Impact activity and that can keep them active, but in a calm, calmer state as far as their nervous system alertness goes.

So you’re talking about the sensory seekers. So I always thought that, um, especially with kids that may be autistic, um, whenever I think of someone that’s sensory seeking, they’re, they’re running, they’re, they’re spinning. But sometimes there is rhythm to it. There is repetition to it. So that’s not what you’re talking about in this one.

You’re talking about more of the uncontrolled or unplanned.

In this example, I’m talking about the, the more, um, uncontrolled, but also if they are repeatedly spinning over and over and over again, especially there are kids that will spin and spin and spin, and they don’t seem to get dizzy, that’s, that’s an indication as well.

So that, that very, that very. Rigid. Yes. That’s a, that’s a different sensory seeking kind of activity of my, my, I need control over my sensory environment to self regulate.

Oh, okay. Okay. So they’re, so they’re getting the benefit of can sometimes

Which can sometimes be a challenge and, and certainly with people with autism or neurodivergency can often have sensory challenges as well, and I would say occupational therapy evaluation could be helpful with that, with that. Um, the, the other ones that I was thinking of, oh, with the sensory seeking is also like kids that are always having to chew and bite and suck on something, like the sleeve of their shirt is sopping wet, or things, things like that that are overly seeking. When they play with Play Doh, it’s from head to toe.

Whereas, when we think of a child that would be sensory avoiding, they don’t want to play the, they don’t want to touch the Play Doh. They’re the ones that are… And both ends of that spectrum can be indicative of some sensory challenges.

Right. So I’m, I’m picturing everyone’s first birthday pictures of their children with the first time that they have cake or frosting or ice cream, whatever it is that they may have given them.

Um, my daughter at the, at the time, I can remember her being two and going to an older child’s birthday. And, uh, I think the child having the birthday was maybe seven or eight and they had met at the mall food court and they had the cake out there and so all of the seven, eight year olds had these messy plates and my two year old had the cleanest plate. Nothing was on her face. She had consumed it, but it was very dainty the way that she did it. But she was, um, one that would avoid things. And so, um, so she didn’t want to have that mess on her. She didn’t want to, to touch it and all.

But at the time, we didn’t recognize that that’s what was happening. It was just an interesting sight to see this clean little one that should have been the messy one out of the group with it. But then I think of my son with his, his first birthday picture. We do have the pictures of frosting all over him.

But it’s, uh, but I don’t think that’s necessarily what you’re talking about. That’s, that’s early eaters learning how to control eating and getting it all over themselves.

Right. And we want them, we want them to be really exploratory at that age. You know, you want the, you want the Play Doh and the finger paints and all of that.

And you want that, that messy play is really important. Um, it’s, I’m just saying, you know, the child that can sometimes that there were a couple others that I wanted to mention. 1 was when sleeping. And obviously, I know that that infant and toddler sleep is can definitely be a very, a nightmare with very typical sensory integration going well.

But, when they really have that crash and burn where they go kind of from that over arousal and the way they’re, they’re getting themselves to sleep is they get that fussy irritability, they’re fighting it and fighting it. And then they’re just screaming and crying themselves to sleep. And if that’s, if that becomes more often than, than not with naps and with overnights, and not just more of an, an anomaly, that sleep regulation, that’s something that also comes in to play here, like that interoception of emotions.

And, and there’s ways of assisting children through the states of arousal so that they don’t go from that crash burn. Where it’s, I’m, I am, I’m overstimulated from a lot of chaotic, unpredictable play that I’ve been doing. And now I’m tired, but I, my nervous system is telling me, stay awake, stay alert. You know, um, it’s too, it’s too difficult to kind of shut down all this stimulation now.

So now I’m going to amp up and start spinning. And, you know, running. So, when you see a child that’s doing that kind of chaotic play and parents say, wow, I wish I could bottle their energy. I’m thinking, no, your child’s exhausted right now.

Right.

But their nervous system is saying, stay alert. So, they’re just trying to amp themselves up and then they get into that fussy and their nervous system is still saying, stay alert.

And there’s ways of assisting with going through active play, to quiet play, to drowsiness, to light sleep, to deep sleep. So there’s, there’s states of arousal through different activities that can be introduced and sensory experiences that can be introduced. To help with that state of arousal and get more sleep readiness and better quality sleep.

How can, how can parents and caregivers differentiate between sensory challenges and a nervous system memory resulting from trauma in young children?

That’s a great question. And the answer really is, is that trauma can often produce sensory integration challenges where the person’s sensory processing is off.

Because the nervous system is receiving this information as a threat and you’re having this response. So, the reality is, you know, we’re, occupational therapists can, can help with the trauma therapy as well by, by coaching caregivers on introducing really calming sensory experiences that the child’s able to take in and when, again, when we understand it, so you can have a background scent of peppermint when you want your child more stimulated and stay awake and and it’s just something that they’re smelling, they’re able to process it, it’s there, their body likes that.

We, we don’t like chaos, and having very predictable things, like spinning a, a top, right, that you can just spin and spin and spin, and it’s predictable. So it’s stim, it’s visually stimulating, but at the same time, once, once you realize it’s going around and you process that. You have that, and that calms you down when you can kind of have that prediction.

It’s that homogenous. And that can keep you calm, so you’re introducing a lot of calming sensory experiences. Enveloping in a blanket can sometimes feel really calming because you’re getting that propriocep that tactile and that proprioception around you of just that tightness in your organs being protected and getting that information.

So, figuring out what sensory experiences can help a child’s nervous system. And then when you have that calm one, then that’s when you can introduce something that is producing a defensive response. So when I think of that, I think of the vacuum cleaner. Okay, so with the, with the vacuum cleaner, I get that one a lot from parents.

So with the vacuum cleaner, I’ll say, try introducing some very homogenous background noise like ocean waves, waterfall, you know, put that on your phone. Um, play that before you bring the vacuum out. You’re playing that music, and the ears have to tune into that music, and then they’re getting something calming that’s the same predictable, monotonous noise over and over and over again.

And then the vacuum is introduced, and then the vacuum becomes background noise. The brain’s really tuning into that more calming input with the vacuum in the background. So it has to compete. So that can be helpful and sometimes it’s like you want me to introduce more noise, but that’s the problem. But when you’re introducing it ahead of time and in that very predictable way, do you, do you see how that could help?

Yeah. Yeah.

And so it’s the same thing, you know, when we think of people having a, um, a trauma response, like I think of, of fireworks, it’s like, can you suck and taste something in your mouth that has a really strong flavor in it? You know, can you rock your body kind of back and forth in a rhythmic motion that’s very predictable.

Yeah. Yeah.

Can you give yourself a hug? You know, different things. Can you sip on something that you have to have that coordination and, and get in a flavor that you have to process? Will you also maybe wear, block out headphones for the, for the noise that helps diminish that? Um, with maybe also a background noise trying to compete with the fireworks.

So when you, when you create that multi sensory experience, but most of that, that sensory input is one that your brain can process and make sense of. And you kind of overload it that way, that’s helpful with the trauma.

So would that be a situation where, like with the vacuum cleaner, we’re having maybe some music or something on the phone or background noise on the phone before the fireworks display starts? Would that be something that would, that would help in that situation?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

So talking about this, um, and I know there are different types of trauma, um, and our brains normally go to extremes with this, but, um, but I wanted to share a story about my daughter when she was three or, well, she was almost three, she was still two. Her first day of preschool transitioning from the home visits with the OT and, um, vision teacher to the local preschool that should be assigned to they had her transition and to start the school year. So before she turned three in October In August, she started going in. So the um, the first day the parents went with the children. And it was more of just a meet the teacher, just a little general thing. And we had all come into the preschool classroom and um, the fire alarm went off.

And um, so we’re. You know, we’re all getting up, we’re getting in the line, and it was, it was good because the kids got to see how you do this. Um, we went down the hall, left the building, and um, went back in, finished out the time. And by the time we got home, it was probably about dinner time that night. I realized that, Emily had not spoken since we had gone into to the class and, um, she was just kind of withdrawn into herself.

She, she ate her dinner. We went through the normal routine of night. She didn’t speak a word. Um, the next day she still wasn’t talking. And, um, so I got out some crayons and some paper and thought, you know, we’ll just kind of draw because if she’s not going to talk to me, I couldn’t tell what was bothering her.

And what she drew was a perfect image of the hallway with the lights flashing. And, um, at this point in her life and for several years after that, she was afraid of closed doors. And, um, hadn’t even clicked to me that, not the noise as much, I think the noise and the light scared her, but the fact that the fire doors closed.

And now she was behind a heavy door that we had to open to go through. That’s where the trauma was for her. Um, that she was, she was in that trapped setting with it. And, um, and, and, and I, I kept the picture because I wanted to always remember how that was such a time, like a breakthrough moment for her to be able to draw the picture for me.

Um, it’s just like two rectangles with these starbursts at the top. But had I not been there with her, I would have had no idea what she was drawing for me, but it was the doors. That was it. It wasn’t the chaos. It wasn’t the people. It was the doors. And, um, and so we were able to talk through things and we went into the school when it was closed and could kind of walk through the doors a few times and only kind of help her, um, desensitize to that environment.

So she could go to school the next day when it came in. But that type of trauma for her, it didn’t seem like anything to anyone else, but for her. that door closing was, was a traumatic time. And, um, and it was because she was dealing with sensory challenges at the time too. Um, and we were still uncovering what they were.

Like I said, she wasn’t even three yet. We were still trying to figure all these things out. So parents, if you’re listening, sometimes it could be something mild that didn’t really trigger anything for you, but. The child may be having a different response to it, and I’m not talking as a professional here at all.

This is just as a mom who’s experienced it, but, um, but in a case like that, you know, it was that the way to go? Was there something else I could have done differently that would have helped her kind of process through all of that?

No, I, I, I think you did a great job and I mean, just the fact that you, you figured that out and then had her draw it.

That was great. Um, no, but when I, when I think about the door closing experience, so I think of the alarm going off and the initial sound is frightening and alarming, right? As it’s meant to be, and the lights is as well. So, but, but kind of once it’s on. It’s the same, uh, uh, right. It’s the same noise over and over. The lights are flashing in the same, it’s obnoxious, but

it is very obnoxious.

But again, it’s at a predictable repetition versus then you walk out and boom, the door, the fire door just slams behind you in a very unpredictable way and probably louder for her than someone without a visual impairment, right?

So, so for her, it and it was really loud and it just came out of nowhere. So I can see how that would have been the, the stimuli, the stimulus that, that did that versus we think it’s the alarm and it, and it wasn’t.

The alarm, the panic of the people around you. Any of those things could have done it, but that was what was surprising. It wasn’t any of those things. And it was, and, and that, that fear of closed doors continued for several years for her.

Once our nervous system gets imprinted with an experience like that, then it is very much, when we’re put back in that experience, when there’s a closed door. It brings you right back to that, it’s meant for protection, but we know the door is not always going to do that when it’s closed, you know, that it is okay. Um, but yeah, so, so there’s things like, I’ll have, I’ll have my kiddos, this, this door thing came up with, um, with one of my kiddos and I just told the, the mom, you know, just start playing with like, you know, With the door open, this is a child that was having trouble with closed doors.

Um, with the door open, just knocking back and forth and seeing each other, knocking and waving, playing a little peek a boo, you know, at the door and then closing the door and playing, you know, peek a boo like that way where you close it briefly and immediately you’re opening it again. And you’re showing him or her, you know, how quickly that can kind of happen that open close it as before the child almost has time to respond to it being closed.

It’s open right again, and you’re just kind of playing a game with it. And then you can kind of keep going from there, but the, you know, the way you, the way you reintroduced it back to your daughter with going to school and everything. It sounds like, yeah, but I’m, I’m not surprised that that was an experience for her for years. That’s how quickly our nervous system is there to protect us of, okay, you know, memory made now we know what to do the next time we, you know, see this object in this position. Um.

Right. When it’s, you know, and, and this was my first child and a lot of our parents listening are in the same situation.

You know, you’re still learning, you know, is this a, a child who’s struggling with some sensory integration issues or is this typical and you know, we’re all going to figure this out on her own. And this is why I think this is an important conversation. Um, not that I want everyone who’s listening that has a two year old who’s having a tantrum or whatever, to just jump to the conclusion that, oh, they, they must be having sensory integration issues, because they’re all learning their environment.

They’re all learning how to establish these, right. These skills that they all have to learn.

Yeah, exactly. And, and tantrums. You know, uh, yeah. They all, they all have their meltdowns. It’s developmentally appropriate, you know, we’re not getting it down to 0%. Um, but when the meltdowns, when you think it’s like my child hates the straps of the car seat and it’s a battle every time, or my child seems to get car sick and hates the, hates the car.

And when the meltdowns are around, Things like, like that versus he took my toy, you know, or yeah, or you said no, no more, no more phone, no more climbing on that. Now I’m going to have a tantrum meltdown or, you know, that they’re hungry or tired and they’re just not having it. But when it’s those other ones that I mentioned, like the, the getting dressed or the, yeah. And.

The socks.

And those, those are the ones, yeah. Yeah. Those are the ones that are more kind of sensory related. Another one I wanted to mention is if your child is, seems to have a, a very fearful response to a swing. There’s a lot of kids that they’re just holding on for dear life. And, and they really immediately want to get down and that tells us a lot about what they might be missing with their vestibular system when their feet are off the ground and they’re against gravity like that and they’re suspended in the air and in motion.

Is that vestibular balance sensory input coming in? And how is that being registered and processed to formulate a response to it? Um, so when your child avoids that, um, and then again on the other end of the spectrum, if they’re just swinging, swinging, swinging, swinging, swinging, and not interacting with anything else and constantly need to have their body in that motion, again, it’s just those opposite ends of the spectrum that both have their challenges with this sensory integration.

We’ve talked about some of the, the indicators that might be that there’s, um, sensory integration. Um, delays or stages that they need to come through.

What are some of the warning signs or indicators that might suggest that the parent needs to seek out professional intervention or therapy for their child? Yeah. And is, and what do they do with that information if they do feel that way? Right.

So, so the things that I, I talked about, like the, you know, After the mouthing phase at infancy, but when everything’s going in their mouth when they’re not Teething and they’re cheering and sucking on everything they can All of those things that that I mentioned when those things are happening more often than not, you know Parents have their struggle with toddlers with getting them dressed at times, but when the majority of the time is, I cannot get close on this child, then, and they’re wriggling around and really, yeah, just not having it, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s an indication.

So all of, all of those things that I had already mentioned, I would say, you could at least look into an occupational therapy evaluation for more information where that therapist could give you a sensory profile questionnaire. There’s a few different versions and get a profile of your child’s sensory skills and get an idea of if there are outliers there, because we do all have our, our things, not just toddlers, but there are clothes that I won’t wear.

There are, you know, I get the shirt and I have to rip the tag off. And there are things that… Irritate my nervous system that I get defensive to that others don’t, but it’s how much is that impacting, you know, how much is this going to impact their development, their learning experiences, their academics, that type of thing.

Um, so with those either ends of the spectrum, yeah, I would definitely say that. So for birth to 3 in all 50 states, there’s early intervention. And, and that’s by federal law, so, and that is free regardless of income. So, you can ask for your pediatrician for a referral to an early intervention agency in your area.

You can, I know for the agency that I work for, I don’t know if it’s this way in all 50 states. We take just parent generated referrals where they say, I just like my child’s development kind of checked and these are where I have concerns. And then they can get the evaluation done and then based on those evaluation results, you know, they can see whether occupational therapy further evaluation is indicated or not.

And also, if ongoing services are recommended or not. For older children, you could, again, ask your pediatrician for a referral and why you’re having concerns, what you’re seeing. You can Google just “Pediatric Occupational Therapy Clinics” near you. You can also check in with your child’s school. There’s, each, each school district kind of takes clinical observations and the sensory challenges in the classroom and addresses them differently.

But you can certainly call the special education department in your district or ask your child’s teacher about getting an occupational therapy screening for your child and kind of going from there and seeing if, um, therapy services might be helpful during their school day for that.

So this is, this is good. And we’ll put, um, we’ll put some of those notes in the show notes too so that If you’re a parent listening and you’re trying to remember all of this, you can, you can look in there to see, to see some of these, um, and we’ll also put a copy of the, the flyer that you had talked about with the stages, um, and there as well.

Um, so if parents have any questions, what should, what should they do? Who should they go to?

Yeah. Like I said, I think they’re, you know, their first stop could be the pediatrician or looking up an early intervention agency near them, um, or like I said, looking into a clinic or, um, or the, the school district. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s what I would recommend. Right.

Excellent. So Kristen has been sharing a lot of this information with us, but, um, I wanted to give her a chance to tell you a little bit about a podcast that she also is hosting. Um, she’s the host of the Gut Instinct podcast. So Kristen, can you tell us what you’re doing with that and, um, what you see coming up up down, down, down the road with the podcast?

Sure. Thank you. So, yeah, I started a podcast, Gut Instinct, and it is about my kind of gut instinct story of, um, journey of trying to tune into, listen to, and trust my gut and just my intuition more. I’ve noticed with age, just kind of that the times that I have done that, it’s really kind of worked out and there are so many times where I’d say, oh, I wish I went with my gut, and just figuring out what that really means. Um, things like that. So, I have a whole bunch of different guests that talk about the subject. Some with their own just kind of gut instinct story and how they went with it and what unfolded from all of that. And some that went against it, um, a gut health nutrition expert that just talks about the, the gut as the second brain and all of those concepts.

And it really does feed into the sensory integration of the interoception of our emotions do come from the gut and our emotion, our emotional regulation. And being able to support our emotions, that’s all at the gut level. So, it really does make a lot of sense to me as an occupational therapist. That, that works in sensory integration, that I’m, the gut instinct just makes sense to me on that level as well.

So it’s, it’s been really exciting to just have lots of different people on to talk about gut instincts. I think we all have them and children especially have it very strong, stronger than adults and making sure that we’re honoring that. So, yeah, and. I am on Instagram at Kristen k r i s t e n, gut Instinct Pod, and I have a Facebook group, gut Instinct hyphen the podcast, and you can find the podcast pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts.

It’s on Spotify, apple. Google podcasts, Amazon, Audible, you can, you can just kind of Google gut instinct and I’m sure you’ll find a way to it.

Well, Kristen, thank you for spending some time here and, um, helping us understand a little bit about sensory integration and, um, and even just the typical milestones that our kids are gonna be reaching, um, for our parents that have these younger kids.

Um, I think it’s always fun to, to hear what. What’s coming and sometimes what, um, what is normal behavior as well as we’re talking about some of the, the areas of concern for other parents, um, and parents that are listening. Um, I think you’ve got some great information that Kristen shared with us. So thank you, Kristen. I appreciate you being with us today.

Oh, thanks so much for having me. This was great.

The post Episode #69: Unraveling the Sensory Puzzle appeared first on Water Prairie.

Show Notes:

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

Today, we have a very special guest with us, Jill Urbane, The Mentor Mom, who has been working with families for nearly three decades. In this episode, we’ll be diving into the topic of early intervention for children from birth to age 3, and exploring the foundational knowledge, understanding, and skills needed to foster healthy growth, development, and learning in your child. So, whether you’re a new parent or a seasoned caregiver, sit back, relax, and get ready to learn from one of the best in the business.

Connect with Jill:

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used:

“LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

 Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Jill Urbane, aka, The Mentor Mom, is a Parent Educator and Social Worker who has been working with families in their homes for nearly thirty years. She is passionate about supporting families by providing them with the foundational knowledge, understanding, and skills needed to help parents foster healthy growth, development, and learning in their child while finding their parenting mojo.

You can learn more about Jill and her services at https://www.thementormomblog.com.

You can find links to her social media accounts and resources for families at https://www.thementormom.com/resources

Full Transcript of Interview:

Tonya: Welcome to Water Prairie. We appreciate you joining us today. I have a friend here today that I want you to meet, and her name is Jill Urbane. Jill is also known as the Mentor Mom, and she’s a parent, educator, and social worker who’s been working with families in their homes for nearly 30 years.

She’s passionate about supporting families by provide, by providing them with the fundamental knowledge, understanding, and skills needed to help parents foster healthy growth, development, and learning in their children while finding their parenting mojo. And we’re going to be talking a lot about this in the next little bit.

Um, but before that, welcome to Water Prairie, Jill.

Jill: Thank you so much for having me here. I’m so excited to chat with you.

So those that are listening, Jill and I have been going back and forth for over a month now trying to find a mutual time when we could talk, so I’ve been looking forward to this for a while.

So, so thank, thank, thank, thank you for, for working it out for me today.

No problem. Got to roll with the punches.

Exactly. Exactly. So the, um, this season we’ve been talking to our guests about, um, a little bit more about themselves. That’s separate from what the interview is about by playing a game called Two Truths and a Lie.

And I’ve asked Jill to provide three facts or pseudo-facts about herself to share with us. And your job, listener, is to guess which ones are the truths and which one is the lie. And, um, you can do this by posting your answer in the comments on the YouTube video if you’re watching that. Or you can go to Instagram and Twitter and write your answer on the post that matches this episode.

So, Jill, what are your facts?

My facts are that I am a solo musician, that I have a cat and three St. Bernard’s, and that I have written a parenting book.

Excellent. All right, listeners, don’t go now, but when you finish listening to this, go and guess, or go ahead and write in the comments if you’re watching on YouTube.

We’ll see how many of you are able to guess this correctly and we will post the answer a week after this episode releases. You’ll be able to find what the correct answer is. So, Jill, what I want to talk today is about the field of early intervention and parent educating and my family did have people involved in our lives in those fields and I can’t tell you how much we valued that because there was so much that I didn’t know, especially with my first child.

And, um, and I can remember just picking their brain on everything. But for you personally, what inspired you to become a parent educator and social worker?

Well, it’s kind of interesting because it was never on my radar. Um, I, I wanted to be a psychologist and then I found out that I had to do a lot more schooling than I really felt like doing.

So I decided to become a social worker and I always thought that I was going to be in the mental health field. Well, I worked in mental health, like in psychiatric hospitals and things like that while I was working on my undergrad degree. And. It wasn’t what I thought it was going to be. I enjoyed it and I learned a lot, but it, you’re limited.

I was stuck in a hospital and I just didn’t like being confined the entire time. And I thought, maybe I don’t want to be in an office all day long. And, um, from there, I ended up getting a job working for the Department of Corrections. And while I was working there, it was with young, um, young offenders between the ages of 15 and 21 that were, uh, maximum security.

And I was struck by how brilliant so many of these young men were and how tragic it was that many of them were going to be serving life sentences. And as they would share their stories, I would find out that they all had very similar backgrounds and histories. And it was a lot of neglect and abuse and trauma.

And from there, I thought, I wonder if there’s something I could do to maybe keep these young men from ending up here, you know, support them and their families. So there I ended up in children’s protective services. As difficult as that job was, I did that for about five years. I actually really fell in love with being in people’s houses.

That’s where I fell in love, with being in people’s homes, because even in the midst of the crises that were going on as a protective services worker, and how difficult some of those situations were, these were families that were in pain. That had many of the parents themselves had had, you know, neglect and trauma and those things happened in their past and it was just really real and raw to be able to be in somebody’s home when they’re at their most vulnerable and try to figure out how to support them to improve things for both them and for their children.

So I did that for about 5 years and then I started having, I started my family and it was just. Too much worrying about other people’s kids when I had kids at home, and I just I wanted something different that would allow me a little bit more time with my kids because as a CPS worker at 10 o’clock at night, you got to go out, you got to go out.

And I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to have to do that to my kids. Kind of not have that kind of control or not knowing when I would be home because if you have to do a removal and you have to go to court and you got to do this and you got to do that, it could be hours. So an opportunity to came, came up for a local school district that was creating their own early intervention program.

And I badgered the special ed director. for three months for that job. Every week I called her, have you hired anybody? Have you hired anybody? And she’s like, no, no, not yet. Not yet. And so finally she just gave it to me. I think she was just like, okay, nobody else wants it as much as you do. You can have it.

And I didn’t know anything about early intervention. I didn’t know anything about working with young children with developmental delays. And I loved it. I, I found that young kids are like little puzzles and you got to figure them out. And even though there may be some similarities with some of the things that might be impacting their development, what you do to work on that is very different from family to family to family to family.

And that was very intriguing to me and exciting to be able to have. I, I always, even 25 years in, still have to put my thinking cap on to try to figure out new ways. So that’s kind of how I ended up into it. It wasn’t the path I thought I was going to take, but I ended up where I was supposed to be because I love it.

So you’re a parent educator and, and a social worker, so the social worker is what got you into the parent educator position. And we’ve talked about early intervention a little bit on the podcast already, but can you describe the concept of early intervention and why it’s important for children from birth to age three?

So early intervention is a home based program for children who have been identified with some sort of delay. And, um, in the state that I’m in, and in most states, there are two areas within which children can qualify.

They can have a delay, and that’s like this big umbrella. Lots of kids under this big umbrella. And then underneath this other, there’s a teeny little umbrella, and that’s the special education umbrella. So, a child can be under the big umbrella and the special education umbrella, or they can just be under the big umbrella.

So in order to be under the special education umbrella, they have to have a 50% delay in one or more areas. As far as the big umbrella, I think it varies from state to state. It used to be back in the day that it was a 10% delay, or just a delay, and now we’re up to a 20% delay for young children to qualify.

And I always want to be clear with families who are looking into intervention that it is an educational model, not a medical model. So one of the first things I do whenever I start in a home with a family is I ask them what they, what they think we’re gonna be doing together, and sometimes they’re like, well, you’re here to work with my child.

And I’m like, okay, I’m actually here to work with you. And they’re like, oh, and I’m like, because we’re not here to do therapy with children. We’re here to teach you what to do with your child. I always say intervention happens between the visits. It’s what parents do with the tools. So it’s a coaching model and what it looks like for families is, you know, we come in, we’ve already identified some areas that the family has said that they have concerns about and if the child’s qualified.

We’re gonna work on looking at what do you want to work on? What have you been doing? What’s not working? Okay, here’s some strategies that we’re, that we’re going to use to try to work on this and then I’m going to model it and show you how to do it with your child and then I’m going to have you do it with your child and I’m going to coach and provide feedback.

That’s really the essential part of it is as an interventionist is having the parent practice these strategies while we’re there and give them the feedback because there’s all these little subtle nuances to these interactions with our young children, so subtle that sometimes parents are missing opportunities or misreading body language from their little one. So when we practice those strategies while we’re there, and the parent can be like, oh, okay, I got a different result that time because I did this. Then they can then use that strategy across the week in various different routines, because parents have more time with their children than a therapist does.

They have a more of a relationship with their child than a therapist does, and they have the best teaching structure as opposed to what a therapist has, and that is daily routines. If you infuse a strategy into, just say, mealtimes and snacks, that’s like five to six little mini therapy sessions every day.

Over the course of the week, it adds up to a lot more learning and progress for young kids. So, I’m highly biased. I think early intervention is one of the best ways to work with, with young children to see the most progress. Is if the parents have the tools, that’s where we’re going to see the transformation.

So for, for a parenting coach to be involved through early intervention, It doesn’t have to be a medical delay, or a medical delay.

Correct.

Okay.

Correct. And, you know, and one thing I want your listeners to know, too, is this does not have to come from a, from a doctor, a referral for early intervention.

There are a lot of parents out there that I see in Facebook groups and, um, and social media that are like, well, I’m going to talk to my doctor about making a referral for early intervention. You can contact your local state intervention agency and make a referral yourself. It does not have to come from a medical professional.

And what is the, like, how would, how would a parent find that, who they’re calling, because state to state it’s going to be different.

Well, so here’s the lovely thing. You can go to CDC.gov and there, on their website, they will have every single state’s early intervention program identified. You can click on the link, find your and then that will allow you to go to your state’s early intervention website and find the link for your local uh, county district and however that works.

Like in ours, they come in through the intermediate school district and some Some different areas. Sometimes it’s you have to go through your local school district themselves, like if you’re in this particular school district, so it can vary there, but the resources are right there on the cdc.gov to get started to at least be able to identify your state’s program and how you would access services.

We’ll put a link to that in the show notes too, so that if you’re listening, that’ll at least get you started, then you’ll, you’ll want to look from there to find your state. So, a parent could be, if they do have a child who has physical delays, um, you know, something that, that would require other help, they could be working with someone like yourself as well as an OT or a PT in addition to that, correct?

Oh yeah, I have lots of families, you know, and every family is different. I have lots of families who just start with the early intervention. I have some families who started with talking to their doctor and doing some outpatient therapies and then seek out the early intervention on top of that.

I’ve got some families that are doing both. I mean, it’s really up to the family and what their preference is.

So we were talking about some of the… If they were, you said now it’s 20% delayed?

In, in the state that I’m in.

Okay.

But I, I think that, I think that might, it might be different in every state. I’m not exactly sure on that.

Alright, so whether it’s 10% delayed, 20%, whatever it may be. Um, what area of delays are we talking about?

It can be any area of delays. It can be a motor delay. It could be a speech delay. And I’ll say that that is probably 90% of the kids that I’ve worked with over the last 25 years. The speech delays are the most common developmental delays amongst young children, affecting actually one in five kids is going to have a speech delay.

Um, it could be, uh, social, emotional, it could be health issues. It can really be like, and there’s some instant qualifiers like low birth weight can automatically qualify a child for services. So what I always tell parents is if, if there’s anything that you’re worried about contact your agency, because what’s the worst thing that can happen?

They come out, they do an evaluation, and they say, ah, we’re good. Here’s some other resources that you can access in the meantime. Or they say, yeah, we think we can help you. Don’t wait. Right. Don’t wait.

So for, for our family… Now, this was 20, 21 years ago now, I think it was. Um, I didn’t know anything about early intervention.

And I’m, I’m assuming that a lot of our parents are listening if it’s their first child. They, or maybe not even their first child. Maybe it’s, if it’s a later child, but the first child that’s had a delay. Um, it’s hard to know how to even get started. So, for us, I, I called our local school and just asked.

Because, because my first concern, because we’d already met with the doctor about my daughter’s visual impairment. And, had her first appointment, so she was, I think, eight months old, and she was eating her glasses. So my question was… Does anyone out there know how to keep a, keep a baby wearing glasses?

That was, that was my first one there. But that connection got us connected with the School for the Blind, with Early Intervention, with an OT. Um, and so, you know, start somewhere to get that call and start asking the questions. And even knowing now that what you’re looking for is the term Early Intervention.

I didn’t know that at the time.

Yeah.

Would, would help. But, um, but once we got connected and had that parent coach there, Then I had someone I could ask to get us connected with a vision teacher and with, to at least know, I didn’t know what those words were yet. And so that was someone who was more connected beyond just helping me as a parent because they had connections with everyone around.

So that’s where I see really the value here of having you come and share with, with my audience. Because I want them to hear that there’s more than just having occupational therapy. There are other options there. And because Emily was being served at the time that Christopher was born, when we noticed some delays with his speech, that was who I went to and asked, you know, can we have him evaluated?

Where do we need to go with that? And, um, and so they, they were able to help us see that, yes, there were delays. In his case, it was a physical tongue tie. That was causing that. And so, again, they helped us know what questions to ask and where to go. So, um, so parents, if you’re listening, the worst case is they’ll say, it’s all fine, they’re within the right range. Right. So, the best thing is, if you do need help, they can help you get connected with where you need to be. And they may be the person that you need.

Exactly. And I’ll say this, that I know plenty of parents who are regretting that they waited. I don’t know any parents that I’ve ever met who regretted getting help soon, sooner and reaching out. So.

And this is 2023, there’s no stigma associated with making that call. So no, you know, in years past, there were times where you didn’t want to have a label on your child. Today, there’s more understanding, there’s more support for you giving that child the chance to, to hit those early milestones and to be on track by the time they get to school.

And that, to me, that’s the biggest piece of early intervention is you’re getting them ready for the rest of their life.

Oh yeah.

And those little delays early on can snowball. So getting them where they need to be and, and it’s not too late. You know, if they’re three years old, it’s not too late.

Oh my gosh.

The earlier you can address it, the easier it is for you and, and for your child.

Agreed.

I say that like I’m a professional, I’m a professional mom, so,

who, who, who has, has walked that already.

Exactly. I understand. Exactly. So, um, but I do remember, um, you know, early on not knowing, you know, should, do we want to say anything about what it is that we’re facing, do we want, you know, and it’s just cause I didn’t know.

I had never run into anyone that had ever been in that situation before. Um, probably quite a few that should have been, but didn’t know either. Mm hmm. So, um, so I’m hoping that. You know, 20 years that have passed, make that a little bit easier for everyone.

Well, and you know, I, I often frame it to parents, uh, in, in, from the perspective of like a health concern.

If, if you were concerned about your child’s breathing or that they were running temperatures or you know, fevers or you would, you would seek out help right away. You wouldn’t delay. It shouldn’t be any different when it comes to development, because in those early years, this is where children, if you think about their development as being a house, these first three years, they’re building that foundation.

And what can happen sometimes with kids with development is they may be moving forward and hitting most of the developmental milestones, but they might be missing some we call those scattered skills. It may not seem like a big deal now, but later on down the road, one of those little skills that they might have missed out on or didn’t really perfect or get down 100% can impact this learning skill later on.

So that’s why it’s really important that we want to make sure that we have strong and solid development because it is the foundation on which all of their future learning is going to take place.

That makes sense, because you think about, you know, they, they learn to roll over, they learn to sit up, they learn to stand up. There’s all the, if you missed any one of those, the next one can’t happen because.

Exactly.

You had to get the muscles built, you had to have the stability and the balance and everything to be able to get to the next level. I mean, that’s a simple explanation, but, you know, and, and speech develops differently than, than physical standing, things like that. But um, and from what I know, I’m far from being a professional on this, but I know somewhere along the way I read that there’s parts of the brain that are, that are developing through those different motions that are happening with, between rolling over and crawling and things. Am I right? Or do you know?

Yeah. Well, uh, you know, motor skills are. They matter. They’re, they’re really, really important, especially when it comes to speech, uh, because we don’t really think about the fact that speech is very much a motor planning, uh thing, a procedure that we’re doing. We have to figure out how to move our lips, our tongue, our cheeks, expel a certain amount of air to produce certain sounds.

There’s a real motor planning complexity to it. And some kids struggle with that piece. I’ve had a lot of students that I’ve worked with over the years. They have apraxia, which is a condition where they’re struggling with that, that, that motor planning part of speech. And a lot of times there might be little gaps in some of their.

Bigger motor development that was impacting this motor development. So if there’s motor planning here that we’re struggling with, chances are there is maybe some very imperceptible to most people. Uh, motor planning issues and some of those other larger motor movements. So that’s why it’s really important to make sure that they are doing all of those things with appropriate quality because a little one might be walking, but if they’re not transitioning down to the floor smoothly, if they’re struggling to find where their body is in space, our motor plan, our, our, our motor development and our sensory development, when those things are out of alignment other development areas are going to be out of alignment.

Interesting. You know, you see different comments here and there, but like I said, I’m not a specialist in this, so it’s always interesting to hear why they all matter with each other. So that’s interesting.

Everything that we do, everything that we do, comes out of our motor development.

Wow.

Well, think about this, like our motor and our sensory, you and I don’t necessarily, well, I do because I’m clumsy, but most of us don’t have to think about when we’re walking down the steps. We don’t have to think about how to adjust our body in space and how to lift our leg and where to grab the banister and to do all of those things because they become autonomous through time and practice.

Young children don’t have any of those neural pathways built to know how to do that. And if they don’t build those neural pathways and I have to think about what I’m doing, it’s going to make it more difficult for me than to focus on your talking and you want me to say words. I’m just trying to figure out how to stand and not fall down.

So I can’t focus any energy in learning from you right now because I’m trying to master this skill. We have to layer these skills on top of each other until they become autonomous and second nature and they’re not thinking about it. So that’s a really important piece to understand, particularly with really, really young kids.

But you know, it was here, the, um, what is the phrase, um, that they can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.

It’s true.

It’s, it, I mean, it’s, it’s kind of the same thing if it’s not, if they’re not automatic behaviors.

And that’s something I don’t think parents really understand. The brain is designed to only do one thing. It can only concentrate on one unfamiliar new task at a time.

So once I learn how to walk and walk well and it becomes second nature, now I can learn how to talk and walk. Right? And then when I learn how to talk and walk, you know, I always use the analogy of a drummer playing a drum kit. They don’t start out being able to do all of it. First they do the boom tap, boom tap, boom tap.

Then they might add the high hat boom tap. Then pretty soon they can add in the fills because those other Skills became autonomous. Their body didn’t have to think about it. That muscle memory it’s, it’s a really, really complex, complex process.

Yeah. Never, never even thought of that, that it makes perfect sense. So we’ve talked a little bit. You said speech was the most common reason that you see. What are some of the other common ones that you would see as far as developmental delays or disabilities that you see in young children?

Um, I work with, you know, I have everything, honestly. I mean, I work with little ones who have motor delays, you know, that they’re not walking or they’re not crawling.

They’re not pulling to stand. They’re not getting into sitting. Um, I’ve worked with, um, students who are on the autism spectrum. A lot of times they’re little ones. They may not have a formal diagnosis for that yet. So that’s where that speech piece comes in. So, like I said, about 90% of the kids that I’m working with have some sort of communication, uh, delay.

And some of those kids are kids who may eventually later on be identified as being on the autism spectrum. I’ve worked, you know, with children with Down syndrome, with different, you know, genetic disorders, with health impairments, preemies, um, little bit of everything. But speech is by far the most common.

What I would think, um, preemies would be a, a big one too, just because they’re catching up from day one and trying to get back on so that would only help them get on track as they’re trying to, well, cause depending on how, how early they were to, they’re still, some of them aren’t even born yet as far as their, their actual age should have been.

Yeah, I worked, I think the youngest preemie I worked with was, uh, 25 weeks. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

That’s a long time before.

That is.

I mean, if you, if you think about their, their actual due date, when it was supposed to be, how old they are really before they’re even supposed to have even been born yet. And so they’re really not even three months old yet. They’re, they’re.

Exactly. And that. And that’s why when we’re working with children that were born prematurely, we are adjusting their age. So depending on how many weeks early they are, we’re not going to expect them to be at a one year level if they were born, you know, three or four, you know, a month, two months early, we’re going to expect them to be at, A 22 month level.

So 14 months. Yeah. They’re a year.

Exactly.

How long, and this is totally off what I was going to be asking you about, but I’m curious about this now. Um, so you have a, you have a preemie that’s, that’s six to eight weeks early. How long before they are in sync with their peers?

You know, it it really honestly depends on the child.

It depends on the family and the parent and whether or not they’re doing the strategies. I mean, there are a lot of families that I work with who struggle to implement the strategy. Sometimes it’s because they’ve got a lot of other things going on on their plate and for some parents.

And kids.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And you know, and for some parents to it’s it’s working on building up that confidence that they can do this. Yeah, exactly. They feel where they, it feels uncomfortable to do some of the strategies that we’re talking about because it’s not a second nature. Like I remember with my first, I knew that I should be talking to him a lot, but it felt really weird.

I’m putting your sock on, sock off, cup, juice, you know, going through the grocery store. Oh, what kind of cereal should we get it? It felt really, really awkward. I have never done self talk by myself like that. But by the time I had my second one, it was like, Oh, what do you think we should get today? Should we get some bananas or should we get some apples?

And she’s like, you know, two months old in her car seat while we’re going through the, through the grocery store. So for some families, it’s, it’s, you know, overcoming some of that uncomfortableness, but the more parents can get in there and do the strategies and do them consistently and tweak the areas that need to be tweaked, the better the outcomes are going to be for the kids.

So I’ve had lots of preemies that have caught right up really quickly. We’ve had some preemies that we’ve evaluated that didn’t even qualify for services.

Wow. The, uh, you’re reminding me of, um, when my kids were little. So Emily was my first, and Christopher’s 22 months younger. Um, so, We knew by four weeks that Emily had a vision issue.

We didn’t know what it was until she got a little bit older. But we got involved with the School for the Blind, and one of the classes that I went to there was a literacy class. Um, and you, you don’t think about your eight, nine month old with literacy, but what they taught us was literacy begins from day one, day one, and it’s visual most of it.

So they’re watching us. They’re learning how to put the world together before they ever read that first word. And um, and the part they were trying to point out to us was when your child doesn’t see what’s happening. There’s a gap in their literacy because they don’t understand the meaning of words before they even start understanding the words themselves.

And so they had us, um, bring her as close as we could and to start describing everything that we’re doing. And so I’d, I’d slide her eye chair over right, right by the counter when I’m mixing up the eggs and I’m talking about it. Because what clicked was, we’re in the grocery store, I’m buying that carton of eggs.

And she’s not seeing that carton of eggs. And then I’m getting home and I’m putting it in the fridge. She’s not seeing it go in there. Um, there’s no way for her to connect the grocery store visit with the scrambled eggs on her plate.

Right.

Where by the time my son was born, he saw all of that and more. And so it all connected with him. Um, and so we just started… narrating everything. So by the time Christopher was born, he was born into the world of narration. Um, by the time he got to preschool, the speech specialist, because he was in a, he was the only peer model in the whole preschool that he went to.

And because it was, it was Emily’s special needs preschool that we put him into. And the speech, um, specialist would go and grab him because she said he had this. Huge vocabulary for a three-year-old who still had speech delays as far as being able to say certain sounds.

Right, the articulation piece.

He still hasn’t stopped talking.

I always tell parents, I’d say… So we saw the value of that. Yeah, you’ve, I always tell parents, you want to be the noisy parents. You want to be talking all the time. You want to be making silly sounds all the time because we want our kids to be noisy kids. I know it sounds like later on, you’re like, I don’t want them to be noisy kids.

But if you want your kid to talk, you’re going to have to do a lot of talking.

And I became, I became very adept at narration of everything. And now I work part-time as a, as a cashier in a grocery store. I see parents coming through and I hear them talking to their kids. And I love it every time I hear it because it’s like it might seem kind of wacky to other people, but you see exactly what they’re doing.

They’re, they’re sharing the world with their child. And that child is going to have a higher level of literacy earlier because they understand all these things and they’re identifying the fruits that they’re picking up, you know, everything. Um, and so it’s, it’s kind of, kind of fun to see that. I wish I had had that before because I had no idea what I was doing. I just felt really strange doing it.

Well, you know, comprehension is, uh, you know, there, there are, there are five pillars, um, or pre-language skills that need to be in place for language to really start coming with young kids. And one of those is comprehension. And I think that a lot of times in my experience that parents focus so much on the talking, getting the words out, and they don’t realize, we need to put just as much, if not more, energy into working on our children’s understanding of what these words mean, because I can’t tell you I want a banana if I don’t know that that word represents that object.

And they estimate that a child has to hear a word about… 250 to 500 times before they’re going to be able to say it. Some kids, it may be a thousand and some kids, it may be more than that. So the more you do that label and that narration, like you’re talking about, every time you say that you are helping build this neural pathway in the brain between and make these connections of this object is always paired with that word. So until I understand it by demonstrating that I can point to it in a picture book, or I can, I can get it when you ask me to, or I can look at it when you name it until I can do those things. I’m not going to be able to say it. I had a mom today that was like, she’s not talking.

She’s not talking. Well, she’s not following directions. She doesn’t, when you say, where’s the ball, she doesn’t turn to look. She doesn’t understand that where means I should be scanning my environment. If I’m not understanding those things, how am I going to. Just randomly start talking. Comprehension has to come first.

When playing games like, like the, the, I can’t talk without stuttering here, Peek A Boo.

Peek A Boo, yeah.

So playing Peek A Boo, you’re saying, where, where, where’s Joey? Here he is.

Mm hmm.

Is teaching that word. I never thought about that before.

Well, that’s actually, that’s actually one of the markers on one of the evaluation tools we know we use is that what does their child respond to a game like pat a cake or peek a boo when they’re just hearing the words by doing an action.

So if I say, do you want to do pat a cake? And the child puts their hand together. Their understanding and that’s comprehension. Or if we say, do you want to play peekaboo and they lift the thing up to cover their eyes, that is comprehension. So it starts at even the youngest of ages.

So one of the other things that we did, um, and I haven’t, I don’t think I’ve ever told many people about this, but we made, um, story boxes and part of it was because of Emily not seeing the pictures inside the books.

So I had little stuffed animals and little objects to represent. But the pictures would have been inside the book. And so every, every shoe box that went with the book, she could pull them out and as we turned the pages, I would hand her the piece that went with it. So then she could hold it and play with it.

And Christopher, by default, benefited from that same story box. Um, and so our books became alive with, with, and I, I know we don’t have, I’m sitting in the playroom right now. I’m not seeing any of the boxes anymore, but for years we had those boxes with, um, little balloons and everything in it, depending on whether it was good, good, Good Night Moon or, um, you know, all the, all the stuffed animals for the, what was it? Brown Bear. What was the. Yeah.

Brown Bear. Brown Bear is a big one. Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, so, and we had, had the board book to go with it, but, um, but it made it fun and it was, um, you know, it wasn’t an exciting book as far as not, it was still suitable for bedtime. It’s just, you know, when we finished, everything was back inside the box cause we’d have them all laid out.

Um, but that’s, that’s something too that I think, you know. helping to put that definition beyond just a picture. They could feel and see the, the shapes of things.

Well, and let’s talk about what you were doing there because that was a killer strategy that you were using there because you were adding a sensory component to it.

The more senses that are involved in a learning activity, the stronger the learning that’s going to take place. So, if somebody’s just telling me something, That’s one modality, auditory, right? But if they’re telling me, showing me, and then walking me through it and allowing me to touch and participate in it, we’ve got three, four other sensory systems moving there.

So we have more cells and neural pathways being built, which means stronger learning. That’s why, like, nowadays, I mean, back in the day, I don’t know about you, but when I was in school, they were like, you can’t chew gum while you’re, you know, while you’re in school or taking tests. Well, now. What are they saying?

They’re saying, chew gum while you study.

And chew spearmint gum so that it stimulates the neurons and all.

Exactly, and then when you take your test, chew that same gum because it makes recall.

Use the same pencil.

Exactly, because it all makes recall easier for the brain. Right. So you were doing a fantastic sensory strategy right there.

Well that and I can’t take credit for that. There was in that literacy class or something similar to that at the school for the blind is where so shout out.

It’s awesome.

to Perkins School for the Blind, their toddler program. Yeah, I learned skills during that and it’s and again It really wasn’t because Emily has a low vision. She’s not she doesn’t have a severe Um, vision loss, but the details and books weren’t really there.

Mm-hmm.

And so that’s, and at the time we had no idea, you know?

Right.

We were still trying to figure out what she could or couldn’t see, but, um, but by default, Christopher, again, that three-year-old vocabulary came from all these exposures Yeah. That we’re in there. So it’s, um, so, but, but that’s something that I will continue to do as gifts to, to kids and all because it, and, and it was fun for me. You know, parents, you, you get tired of reading stories sometimes.

Yeah.

It’s a lot more fun when it’s interactive with it, because then you’re not having somebody squirming. They actually have something to do while they’re listening to the story. So, um, the, um, so when I did your, your introduction, I said you’re helping parents find their mojo.

Um, what advice do you have parents that are, for parents that are having trouble finding their mojo as a parent?

Well, I think that when we think about parenting, you know, the first thing I always say is that it’s going to be an ongoing process of learning about who you really are as opposed to who you thought you were and what kind of parent you thought you were going to be.

We all go into parenting with these, I’m going to be this kind of mom and it’s going to go this way. And then our kids come along and say, I don’t think so. So what I find in, in, in my many years of working with parents, I think parents who struggle to find that mojo are parents who are lacking tools, right?

When we have more tools in our parenting toolbox, it makes it easier for us to parent with more confidence and know what it is that we’re doing. And that’s why I think that the early childhood years are probably the most challenging years because we’ve got these new little humans that we’re responsible for and they don’t come with an instruction book and I can read this book or that book over there, but it’s doesn’t seem to be working with my child and now I feel like I’m a bad mom or a failure.

I’m not going to be any good at this. And so it’s really easy for us to start kind of beating ourselves up or second guessing ourselves. And so I always say that if we want to have that good parenting mojo, you’ve got to start from the beginning by getting as many tools in your toolbox as possible. And the tools that I recommend the most, number one, understanding development.

Understand how little ones brains work, understand social emotional development. Those are the two where parents get stuck the most, because when we understand the development and what’s driving the behaviors and the things that we’re saying, then it makes it so much easier to make sure that we’re meeting our children where they’re at.

Too many times parents are expecting kids to have this skill up here, and they’re still way down here. With their brain like parents will say my two year old is so mean he’s doing this and they don’t have the ability to be mean it to just so y’all know they’re they’re just trying to figure out their world.

That’s all they’re trying to do. They’re not trying to drive you crazy. They’re not trying to be difficult. They’re going through so many social emotional stages as a toddler. So when we understand that we can look at what’s going on rather than it being a challenge to who we are and what we think that they need to be doing as a parent, we can look at it as, Oh, okay.

He’s struggling with this skill. Okay. Let me see how I can better support him through this.

How can parents find what those are, like what they should expect?

Well, my number one recommendation for every parent on my, my must read list is The Whole Brain Child by Dan Siegel. In that book, he talks about how the brain in young children works and it is just, it’s so beautifully written in such clear and easy, concise turns. You don’t turn in, he’s not trying to turn anybody into a, uh, a brain surgeon or a neurologist or anything like that, but he, he really helps break down like how the progression of development happens in the brain. Like for example, kids don’t really get to the analytical part of the brain, the logical part of the brain, until anywhere between five and seven years old.

So when you’re expecting your child to be able to manage these big emotions, they’re not, they’re not there yet, right? They’re still, they’re still gonna resort to the feelings. And it gets particularly challenging, I think, when we’re talking about preschoolers because preschoolers start having this huge growing vocabulary and this imagination and talking and telling stories and all of that, but then they’ll have a meltdown because you gave them the wrong colored cup.

And it’s like, wait a minute, you need to, and they’re doing this, they’re not doing it on person, on purpose. They are just in the middle of feels. And when they’re in the middle of the feels, I have no access to any kind of higher level thinking.

I can remember, um. with my son, removing privileges, not as a punishment, but what we realized was his world was getting too big for him.

And so he would have these meltdowns. And so we would, we would go back to just two, two, two, two choices. It was just an either or nothing else was factored in until he could handle that again. And then we would slowly start adding in. And there was a phase there around four or five. Where we had to go backwards, I don’t know how many times before we finally could emotionally handle having five choices to get it.

Because it was just an overwhelming thing. And it, you know, and so I think a lot of times you’re right. It’s just, it’s more than they’re ready for. But we forget. Because they seem like these little adults and these little bodies. And they’re able to have these conversations, and they can tell us all these amazing things.

But they’re still little, little bodies still. Emotionally, they’re not there yet.

Yeah, I like how he uses the analogy in his book of a downstairs brain and an upstairs brain. And the downstairs brain, I always tell parents, that’s where toddlers are living. The downstairs brain is all the emotion and the feeling.

I can’t have that. I’m mad. I’m falling down on the floor into a big meltdown. And preschoolers, they… They’re up in the right side of the upper brain, which is still the emotional part. It’s not over to the logical side yet. And they’re up there. They’ve got some stairs from the downstairs brain to the upstairs right side.

They’re not opening the door and peeking in on that analytical side yet. And every now and then they tumble down the steps into the downstairs brain. So when, when we understand that these emotions that they’re feeling are just them struggling with a limit or not getting something that they wanted, and it’s not that they’re trying to be difficult, that they’re just in the middle of emotions.

Our job is always to calm them, connect with them. Then we can look at whether or not we need to correct a behavior and talk about what we need to do next time, or whether or not we can just redirect them and move them onto something else.

I like that. Calm, connect, and then maybe Correct?

Yeah, it’s either correct or redirect.

It depends on the situation. I always say that we have to correct if it’s something that involved like hitting or potentially hurting somebody or hurting themselves, right? If they’re just mad and like today had a little guy, he was mad and he threw the wipes across the room, not towards anybody or anything, he just threw the wipes across the room.

You know what, I’m not, I’m gonna redirect there. I’m gonna say, oh, let’s go over here and try this now. Right? Because it didn’t hurt anybody. So I’m not gonna, I’m gonna pick him, choose my battles. He’s in a bad mood. Let’s just move on and find something fun to do. And he’ll forget that he did that. So it really depends on the situation.

But if it, if it involves something that could harm somebody or harm themselves, that’s when we definitely want to do a correct, but correction should always take place when our kids are back in a happy mood.

Right. Right.

We don’t, we don’t want to try to do it when they’re still in the middle of the feels because that’s just gonna,

they’re not going to hear you.

Right. Right. Right. No.

It doesn’t even exist.

Angry, upset, scared brains don’t hear at all.

No. And that’s not just for toddlers.

No.

That’s pretty much anybody.

Well, you know, and I honestly, I think if parents looked at what was going on, what’s going on with their children in those moments through the lens of what would I want as an adult.

Their responses would be markedly different, and they would probably be a much better fit for their child in those situations. Because what we want in those situations is sometimes to be left alone, to be given some space. Sometimes in those situations, we just want comfort from somebody. You know, what we don’t want is to be yelled at. What we don’t want is to be shamed. What we don’t want is to be lectured. And none of those things have any kind of efficacy.

Right. When half the time, the emotion that we’re feeling is, we’re already feeling that way. So, we don’t, we don’t need it to just be rubbed in there even. So for our parents that are listening, if they want to get in touch with you, um, what’s the best way to contact you?

They can contact me through my website, which is thementormomblog.com.

You’ve shared a lot of information with us. You’ve told us what, what you’re doing professionally, but what else do you have going on?

So I offer a couple of different services. So I am available for one to one coaching and all of this is available on my services page or on my website. I also have a low cost monthly membership program for parents who are.

Looking for that support where I do once a month, we do a group coaching session. So if you’re like, Oh my gosh, I’m, this kid is driving me crazy. I don’t know what to do about this behavior. We address that together as a group. I give you some strategies and feedback. Um, it has a community that’s involved.

So you get ongoing support that I pop in there and answer questions and share resources. And then once a month I do a workshop with my members. Like this month, we’re going to be doing it on sensory system and sensory strategies, because it is such an important part of development for young children.

I’ve done them on parenting styles. Um, I’m going to be doing one on attachment and attunement, which is. The biggest indicator of whether or not our children are going to have mental health issues later on. If we don’t get it right. So every month I’m doing some kind of topic. I’ve done one with a certified sleep coach, which was really, really helpful for the members who are struggling with their little ones having sleep regressions. So I do that once a month. And then for those parents who are struggling with their little ones, uh, language and communication, or maybe they have an infant and they’re wanting to make sure that their little one stays on track with their communication. I have an online digital course called how to get your toddler talking.

Oh, wow. Oh, nice.

It’s everything that I’ve learned. Yeah. Yeah. All on my website.

Oh, good. Well, Jill, thank you for taking the time to talk through these things. I have so many more questions, so we may, we may have to connect again sometime down, down, down the road. But I appreciate you taking the time today to go through all this.

I, I have, even having gone through this stage myself, I have a better understanding now of what your job is and how that connects with the whole picture of early intervention. So thank you very much.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I’d love to come back.

The post Episode #68: Early Intervention: Why It Matters and How to Make the Most of It appeared first on Water Prairie.

Show Notes:

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

In this enlightening interview with Dr. Kirk Adams, we delve into the important topic of employment opportunities for individuals with disabilities and how parents can support their children in finding meaningful work. Dr. Adams provides valuable insights and addresses common concerns parents have regarding their disabled children’s employability.

He emphasizes that individuals with disabilities can indeed find employment and have successful careers. The key lies in developing disability-specific skills and creating a strong support network. Dr. Adams encourages parents to connect with organizations and associations dedicated to disability advocacy and support, which can provide guidance and resources in navigating the disability in the workplace landscape.

Dr. Adams highlights that while challenges may exist, there are numerous career opportunities for individuals with disabilities. Employers are increasingly recognizing the value of inclusive workplaces and the unique strengths that disabled workers bring. He stresses the importance of dispelling misconceptions around disability in the workplace, such as the notion that having a disability automatically hinders one’s ability to work effectively.

Throughout the interview, Dr. Adams emphasizes the importance of self-advocacy, resilience, and skill development for individuals with disabilities, highlighting that disability employment is possible with the right support and mindset.

For parents raising children with disabilities, Dr. Adams provides guidance on fostering independence, developing essential skills, and building a strong network of support. He encourages parents to connect with local chapters of disability organizations, seek mentorship opportunities, and leverage available resources to help their children navigate the path to employment.

In summary, this interview with Dr. Kirk Adams sheds light on the possibilities of employment for individuals with disabilities and provides parents with valuable insights and actionable advice. It reinforces the importance of creating inclusive work environments, dispelling misconceptions, and supporting individuals with disabilities in their journey toward meaningful and fulfilling careers.

Connect with Kirk:

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Resources mentioned during this episode:

Music Used:

“LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

 Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Kirk Adams is a Professional Speaker and the founder of Innovative Impact LLC., focusing on groundbreaking, high-impact projects that accelerate the inclusion of people with disabilities in the workforce and supercharges a company’s bottom line.

Kirk Adams earned his PhD in leadership and change. He is known as a master connector of key decision-makers in government, corporate America, the nonprofit sector, and disability advocates guiding them to create collaborative solutions that have a real impact in increasing the employment of people with disabilities.

Full Transcript of Interview:

Tonya: Dr. Kirk Adams is a professional speaker and the founder of Innovative Impact LLC, focusing on groundbreaking high-impact projects that accelerate the inclusion of people with disabilities in the workforce and supercharge a company’s bottom line. Today we’re going to be discussing employment opportunities for our children with disabilities and how we can help our children prepare for their future careers. Kirk, welcome to Water Prairie.

Kirk: Great to be here. Thanks, Tonya.

Thanks, I’m looking forward to our conversation today. This season I’ve been having each of my guests share a few things about themselves and we’re playing the game “Two Truths and a Lie.” So, before we get into the interview, would you be willing to share three pseudo-facts and facts about yourself for us to figure out?

Sure. Two are to be true and one is to be a lie, correct?

That’s correct.

Okay. So, these are, I’m a Washington State person. I’m talking to you from my office in Seattle, and so these are all Washington State-centric. So, the first is that I was born in the same hospital in Aberdeen, Washington as Kurt Cobain, the founder of the band Nirvana.

The second is I was an extra in the Pike Place market scene in the movie Sleepless in Seattle.

And the third is I was the first totally blind person to summit Mount Rainier.

Wow. Now, I’m really curious, but if you’re listening, your challenge is to, if you’re watching on YouTube, go to the comment section. If you’re listening to it in another format or reading on the website, go to Instagram or Twitter and find the post about this section and type in your guess. See if, if, if you’re able to guess which is the lie and which of the two truths on this one. And a week after we post this video, we will go back and post the answer to it so that you’ll be able to check your answers.

In our questions today, we’re going to be talking about some employment opportunities, but I want to go back a little bit because I like for all my guests to kind of share how they’re connected with what they’re doing right now. Um, so Kirk, can you share us. Can you share us? Can you share with us your personal journey and how you navigated your own vision loss?

Oh boy. Yeah. Um, first of all, I was born sighted and had 20/20 vision until I was in kindergarten and then both of my retinas detached, there was, um, some congenitally weak blood vessels that hemorrhaged and the pressure from the hemorrhage.

Detached the retinas and uh, not, not quite sure what precipitated the hemorrhage. But, um, yeah, I became totally blind very quickly within a couple days. My parents, I was born when my parents were in college. They were both, had started their teaching careers. So, I guess they were probably 26 years old and had never met a blind person before.

And all of a sudden, they had a blind child. Right. And, um… This was 1966, so the um, local school that I had been attending was very clear and adamant that no, no, Kirk cannot come back to school here. Uh, we are not equipped to teach a blind kid. So, he needs to go to the state school for blind children. So, my parents visited the Washington State School for the Blind in Vancouver, Washington, and were quite dismayed.

By what they saw as far as the academic activity going on there, or lack thereof. It’s an excellent school now, but not then. My retinal surgeon was at the University of Oregon Medical School in Portland, and I was going there very frequently. Had quite a number of painful, ineffective eye surgeries there. But, um,

Were they trying to reattach?

Trying to tack the remnants of the retina down and remove scar tissue. Or the two things. But in any case, someone there mentioned that the Oregon State School was excellent. So, we, we visited there, in Salem. And they were very pleased and impressed. So, um, to their credit, of course I didn’t realize it at the time, what a big deal it was.

They quit their jobs, in here in Washington State. Moved, um, I had a younger brother. Uh, younger sister came later. But moved, moved the family. to Oregon, um, settled in a little town called Silverton, which is about 15 miles from Salem. So, I could go to the school for the blind, but I could be a day student and stay at home rather than in the dorm like so many of the other students from farther away.

And I went there for first, second, and third grade. And I had an amazing teacher, Mrs. Summers, whenever I’m at a conference and they say Shout out the name of the most influential person in your life, I always say Mrs. Summers. Because she taught me to read braille, um, write, write braille. Um, we had these big heavy, well for me they were heavy because I was six, um, sweepback books she called them.

They were just lines of symbols to practice the correct movement of, of the hands. Started reading the line with the two index fingers together. Reading to the middle. Finishing it with the right hand, while sweeping back and finding the beginning of the next line with the left hand. And she made me practice and practice and practice, and I would say…

Can I learn to read now? And she would say, nope. You got to get the, got to get the sweep back, mastered.

What I’m thinking too, you were at an age where you weren’t reading before this happened, correct?

No, I mean, I knew letters, my parents were teachers, so I remember, you know, we had letter blocks, and I think I knew the shapes probably of the capital letters, but it certainly wasn’t, I certainly wasn’t reading, reading.

But, um, boy, reading was so important to me, and, um, you know, particularly, I spent, you know, ten days at a time in the hospital after an eye surgery, completely immobilized. And, you know, I would have my big stack of, uh, boxes from the Braille library and read, read, read away. And I learned how to travel using a white cane.

Um, as a six-year-old, learned how to travel independently and safely. And, um, learned how to type on a typewriter so I could… The model was, go to the school for the blind, learn your blindness skills so that you can, um, survive in public school and then go to public school. Which I started in fourth grade.

But I think the most important thing, there were like 110, 120 blind kids. And, um, it was run by a bunch of really cool hippies. And they had us, this is the 60s, they had us backpacking. In the Three Sisters Wilderness area, horse, horse riding, um, going into the tide pools at the Oregon coast, going up in the mountains and building igloos, uh, in the winter.

So they were, you know, climbing trees, um, falling down, getting scrapes and bruises and they, they taught us to love. Our bodies as blind people and to be comfortable moving through space and comfortable taking risks and Sometimes I’ll talk to kids of little blind or parents a little blind kids and I’ll say you can measure your success by how many trips to the emergency room you take with your child. That was just a seminal experience for me. You know, strong, whatever your disability, strong, strong disability skills.

In my case, strong blindness skills. You know, that’s a predictor of thriving as a blind adult, so if parents are listening to have a blind child, the more time and emphasis you put on helping them to acquire these awesome, unique, special skills that blind people use to thrive, um, it’ll be time well spent.

We’re going to fast forward to, to a couple of years later, so somewhere along the line, you became an advocate for inclusion and accessibility. How did that happen? How did you feel that that was a calling that you had or something that you wanted to work toward?

Yeah, so my parents didn’t know any blind people. I didn’t know any blind people. I grew up in small towns. Um, in the Northwest, I was always the only blind kid in school. Um, when kids in small towns turn 16, two things happen, they get a driver’s license, and they get a job. And I, I didn’t get either of those, um, right away. But then I, I did get a job. I was really into sports.

My father was a basketball coach at the high school. And I, um, became the sports editor. of the school paper. And in Snohomish, Washington, there was an arrangement where the sports editor of the high school paper got to write a weekly column for the Snohomish Tribune, the little weekly paper. So, I got to write a column on high school sports.

So, I got paid minimum wage and I wrote my articles and filled out my timesheet and got a check. Another early predictor. Um, you know, kids, most, most, blindness is my thing, so I, when I say blindness, it really applies across disability, but, you know, less than a quarter of young blind kids get any kind of paid work by the time they’re 23, something like 70% of non-disabled young people do.

So then, um, another kind of pivotal moment is I was in the college bound group at my high school. And my senior year, first period we all went to math analysis. Second period we all went to physics. Third period we all went to chemistry. And when I walk into chemistry, the chemistry teacher says, no, no, no, you can’t take chemistry.

That’s a safety issue. You’re going to have to go to the office and get assigned to another class. And so, I went home and told my parents and they were educators and they said, well, if Mr. So-and-So says, then that’s, that’s that. So, I didn’t know how to advocate for myself. They didn’t know how to advocate for me.

We didn’t have a network. Um, and now of course, uh, I know blind chemists, uh, Hobie Wedler, blind guy, PhD in chemistry is like a world-renowned wine expert. I know a gentleman, Dan, Dan Berlin, who’s a chemist who grew his own company and sold it for a vast sum. I know blind people who teach chemistry. So, I know, I know that was not true, but I didn’t know it then.

And then my first, uh, kind of experience out of college, I graduated with an econ major. I had a 4. 0. In my field, had a Phi Beta Kappa, cum laude, and started applying for jobs. Applied to a couple of grad schools, got in, decided I wanted to work, and marry my college sweetheart. We’ve been married 37 years now.

Uh, get a house, have kids, and those, those, those things meant thriving to me. And, of course, thriving is defined by the individual. But for me, that’s what I wanted to do in my early 20s. So, I started applying for jobs, um, sending out my cover letter and resume. Um, I knew I needed to live in a city. Uh, so I was applying in Seattle because I needed to live somewhere with public transportation not, not available in my little hometown. And, um, I would get a phone interview. It would go great. I’d be invited in for the in person. I’d walk in with my white cane, my slate and stylus, and my little, you know, folder with some Braille paper to take notes and, you know, the confusion would set in over the room.

And most employers, uh, have not had an experience with a successfully employed blind person. They have no idea what, um, skills we learn, uh, in order to thrive with our disability. They don’t know what kind of tools we use, technology. And I think they often project and think, If I woke up tomorrow and I was blind, there’s no way I could do this financial analyst job this guy is applying for.

So, then I started disclosing in my cover letter that I’m blind, been blind since age 5. Here’s how I’ve done what I’ve done. Here’s how I’ll do the job. And then I wasn’t even getting the phone interview. So, I had that very frustrating experience that so many young people with disabilities have, as only 35% of us working age adults with disabilities are in the workforce.

And that’s about half the general population, where it’s about 70%. And, um, you know, I started casting my net wider and wider, and I finally sent a resume and cover letter to a little family owned… Securities brokerage firm that underwrote tax free bond issues, and the sales manager had gone to my same college, Whitman College in Walla Walla.

He was an econ major. He had some of the same professors I had. He was maybe 12, 15 years before me, so he called some of the professors and so can this Kirk Adams guy sell tax free municipal bonds over the phone? Of course, he can. So, so I, I took that job, and I was in securities sales for 10 years, um, out of college, 50 cold calls a day, every day.

And I made a fine living and bought the house that I’m sitting in right now. I got married and had our kids and then I turned 30 And got very clear that I did not want to do that the rest of my life. So, I got the What Color is Your Parachute book in Braille out of the Talking Book and Braille library.

And I followed every step and did all the exercises. And um, at the end, uh, got clear I should be, I should pivot to the nonprofit sector. I should be in leadership. And I should work. For nonprofits that create opportunities for other people who are blind. So, I set out to accomplish that. And the next step, they say, is to interview people who are doing what you want to do.

So, I reached out to a handful of nonprofits that I had either donated to or experienced. Um, one of my first ones was with the, uh, CEO of, uh, Planned Parenthood of Western Washington. And I went in and talked to her. And I honestly don’t even remember her name. This was 1993. But she, I told her my little story and she said, well, I was also a securities broker.

And I also decided I need to be in the nonprofit sector. And if I were you, I would enter the sector by becoming a professional fundraiser, because you’ve talked to, for ten years, you’ve talked to wealthy individuals about their financial goals, you’re comfortable with that, and there’s such a need for professional fundraising, that that would be the way I’d get my foot in the door if I were you.

So, I started applying for fundraising jobs, and not getting them because I didn’t have any experience, which was totally fair. But then I got a newsletter from the state talking book and Braille library, uh, the librarian whom I’d known well, cause I’m a huge Braille library user. And she said, our funding, um, has been frozen and we are going to need to raise 200, 000 or close down our evergreen radio reading service.

So, I called her and told her the same little saga and said, How about I come down and volunteer to raise the 200, 000. I’ll come and spend 20 hours a week until I’m done. And then I will job hunt the rest of the time. And that will let me put something on my resume that shows I have experience. And, um, she said, sure.

So, uh, a side note. As I mentioned, early work experience is a heavy predictor of future success in employment as an adult with a disability. And the research shows that volunteer work is just as strong a predictor as paid work. So volunteering is a really great way to go to get some traction and get a foot on the career ladder.

So, she said sure. Uh, I… Got a book on writing grants, recorded on tape for reading for the blind and dyslexic. I listened to it. She assigned me a library volunteer to read through the Washington State Trust Directory, which is as thick as a big city phone book, listing all the foundations in the state.

And I started writing letters of inquiry to those that I thought would be a fit, and I was given the opportunity to apply for some grants, and I had some beginner’s luck. Got a couple of, um, what I know now, what I know now is beginner’s luck. So, I got a couple nice big checks pretty quickly. And, uh, they, uh, offered to create a position for me.

And so, my first nonprofit job was a development officer for the Seattle Public Library Foundation, which was administering the statewide. talking book and braille program. So, I was a development officer, Seattle Public Library Foundation, raising money for the state talking book and braille library. I did that for about three years, got very clear that this was my future.

And went back to school and got a masters in not-for-profit leadership. Um, had a couple other fundraising jobs. Uh, was hired by the Lighthouse for the Blind here in Seattle to start their fundraising program and their foundation. Did that. Um, was asked to take on more and more and more things, um, was given the opportunity to intentionally by, by the Seattle Lighthouse for the Blind to go through a professional development process so that I would be qualified to apply for the CEO role when my predecessor who was sighted retired.

So, I went through about a 15 month professional development process. Uh, they hired a search firm. I put my name forward. I was given the great opportunity, uh, to be the president and CEO of the Lighthouse here. And then, uh, later was asked to join the American Foundation for the Blind board, which I did.

And then had a similar opportunity to step into, uh, American Foundation for the Blind, which was Helen Keller’s organization. Uh, probably the most iconic organization in the blindness field. And so, I, uh, joyfully accepted that sacred trust of leading that organization. And my, uh, wife and I moved to New York City and lived in Brooklyn and worked in Manhattan and then to Arlington, Virginia, and now back home to Seattle. So here we are.

Wow. But it, it sounds from, from your story, you, you know, that personal struggle of trying to, to get your name out there, to get. And when you’re telling the story of, um, early on when you would go through the application process and then get to that face to face, um, I’m picturing a lot of our, um, listeners are probably thinking that same thing, um, for their child or if it’s an individual that’s listening.

Um, they may have already experienced that. And, um, and that’s why I wanted to talk about this today because I think it’s really important that we understand some of those, those pieces that need to be in place so that. Um, you can find success, um, and a lot of it, you, you made the comment, um, that they were projecting their own ideas on if they were to lose their vision today, could they do the job or not, which is unfair.

We know that looking at it. But I think it’s hard for us not to, we try to connect, and we put our personal feelings into that connection, um, not realizing you had had how many years of life to learn how to do that. You made another comment, um, that after that experience that you included, I think, in your letter you said, how you would address the issues.

Yeah. So that’s a question. If you have a visible disability, I obviously do because I’m totally blind and I use a cane. Um, when to disclose? When in the process do you disclose your disability? Um, it’s a kind of a personal choice. I think there’s… There’s some strategy around it, and there’s a lot more opportunity to be strategic now um, that many employers are actively, uh, intentionally seeking to be more inclusive of people with disabilities in their workforce.

Well, I was thinking too, as you were talking, a lot has changed since you were at that stage of life.

Yes, thank goodness.

However, there’s still a lot of room that we need to improve. How well can they, not, not the person who’s disabled, but the able-bodied person that’s coming in and they’re, they’re projecting into that communication part.

Um, but I’ve also interviewed several guests who have had the same thing. Um, Heather is, um, is deaf. She shared; she’s working on her master’s in social work right now. She shared how in an internship she was being talked down to while her classmate that had the same internship was being treated with, with a higher level, level of respect by the same supervisor. And, um, she had to call, um, her supervisor. Call the supervisor out on it that, you know, I’m not, I’m not deficient in my intelligence here.

Right, right, right.

You know, I, I just can’t always hear what you’re saying.

Yes, right.

And um, and so those advocacy skills do need to be there from day one. We need to really build those in our children so that they know how to speak up.

Yeah, and one, one really easy, well nothing … relatively easy way is to include your child in the IEP process. So, you know, the individualized education plan that kids with disabilities are entitled to. And there’s a process where you work with the school to outline what they’re going to deliver to your child. And have your, have your kid in those meetings from the beginning. Even if they’re really little.

I was going to ask how, how, how, how young would you include them?

As soon as you have one, you know. And, and they don’t need to be actively involved perhaps, but just say, you know. We’re here, we’re going to talk with your teachers, there’s some really cool stuff that you’re going to learn. And we just want to make sure that we’re all set up to teach you, um, these wonderful things.

And, um, we’re a team, we’re working together. And, um, sometimes the actual IEP is not such a team experience, but the IEP is crucial. And I tell parents, if they have six people in the IEP meeting, you have seven. If you need to have it in the gym, have it in the gym, because it’s super, it’s super important and not every school district is as cooperative as others. It’s a little bit of a hit or miss depending on where you happen to live.

I know for my own children, the school, especially when they were, before they were 14, because parents that are listening, when your child hits, I believe it’s 14, they’re required to be invited. to be included. But before that point, you’re the one that’s being invited. The child’s not on that invitation. But, um, they would always schedule during the teacher’s planning period. So, my child would be in class somewhere. And, um, and I never thought until they were older to pull them out.

Yeah, yank them right out. Yank them right out of class. They’ll never learn as much in that class as they will in that hour at the IEP.

Well, and I think it is, it is good. And there were times when I would be at the IEP meeting and I remember at one point pulling out the, my child’s picture and putting it on the table and just telling the team, you know, we need to remember, this is why we’re here. It has nothing to do with budgets or anything else. And if the child’s sitting there.

I would certainly highly, 100% pound the table, say, bring a successful, thriving adult with their, with their child’s same disability to that meeting. You can bring whoever you want. Um, but, uh, for instance, in blindness, there’s the National Federation of the Blind, American Council of the Blind.

Um, they have chapters, they have a network, a structure. If you, if your child is blind, you can, you can contact the federation or the council. Talk to the president of the local chapter and say, I have an IEP coming up, I need a, I need a successful blind adult with me. And they will make that happen. Um, all disabilities have structures and associations and groups and Facebook groups.

And, as I mentioned before, my parents had never met a blind child until I woke up in the hospital as a blind person. And, um, No advocacy, no network, but today with technology and social media and search engines and chat GPT and all the things, um, you know, you can really, I think, I think connecting and building that support system is super important for families and now that it can be done virtually, I wouldn’t hesitate to reach out. Um, 99. 99% of adults with disabilities you reach out to are going to want to be helpful.

It’s, and, and that’s information that I, now I’m looking back, my kids are in college now, so we’re not in that IEP time now, but I went out and found those individuals, but never did it cross my mind to ask them to come with me to the school.

So, I was doing my research outside of school and formulating what my questions were, so I knew what I was asking for when I got there and why I was asking for it, but never even crossed my mind until you just said that. Um, but I did interview another family. She has, she has young children, um, and both of them are, are deaf with cochlear implants, but she was able to find a deaf mentor because like, like your parents, she had never met anyone who was deaf until she met her children. And, um, and so she knows coming into it that she doesn’t know that connection. And that person is working with her to help her understand the deaf community, to help be able to teach her children. And so, the same, same is true with what you’re sharing there. You know, if your child is blind, any level of vision loss, reach out and find an adult who can walk with you with this. I think, I think it’s, it’s great advice.

Yeah, it works and, um, you may get a lot of resistance from the school, and you may have to, um, make yourself uncomfortable to, to do what’s best for your child. Um, they may say, oh no, it just has to be you. And you can say, no, no, no. I can bring whoever I want. So, you might have to be, you might have to be a little tough.

Right, right. And, and you can do that. It’s um, I, I think letting the school know I think is just out of courtesy.

Oh yes.

So, they know how to prepare.

Right.

So, um, you, through, through your experiences with working with, um, encouraging companies to create an inclusive, um, what are some, um, can you give us like an overview of, of what you’ve done with companies so far to kind of help them create a workplace?

So, what’s exciting is there is a lot of traction and energy around diversity, equity and inclusion that didn’t exist probably 10 years ago. And a lot of companies started out understanding that a diverse, inclusive workforce makes them a better company and a stronger organization. And most started with race and gender. But now, um, you know, so a small percentage of companies are broadening their approach to think about being inclusive of people with disabilities.

And that’s from a business strategy standpoint as, um, there’s a battle for talent in corporate America and people can’t hire enough good folks. And, um, as I mentioned earlier, 35, only 35% of people with significant disabilities are working. Um, probably a third would say they’re underemployed. So, there’s a lot of, there’s a big untapped pool of talent.

And beyond that, the lived experience of disability living every day with a disability gives you opportunities to develop unique strengths in areas that employers say they need. So if you live every day with a disability, you are going to learn persistence, uh, resilience, you’re going to develop grit, which is kind of a buzzword in employment now, you’re going to, um, learn how to solve problems creatively, you’re going to learn how to analyze and manage risk, You’re going to learn how to communicate with all different kinds of people.

You’re going to learn how to put a team together and support a team. So, um, Disability is a creator of strengths, a creator of assets. And so, to have those conversations with those companies who are trying to get a competitive advantage and find those who want to, um, intentional about including people with disabilities.

Those are the types of, of companies I’m looking for and finding, which is super cool. So, I’ll give you two examples, a manufacturer called the United Safety Technology. They are a manufacturer, uh, personal protective equipment. They set up a factory to make respirators right when the pandemic started. The Department of Defense became a customer.

They subsequently got a 100 million grant from the Defense Production Act to stand up domestic production of medical gloves, because the bulk of medical gloves are imported, and we ran into shortages during the first phase of the pandemic, so our first line responders didn’t have what they needed. So strategically, we, um, the government has decided we need domestic sources for all PPE.

So, they got 100 million to stand up medical glove production. They’ve leased Bethlehem, former Bethlehem Steel plant outside of Baltimore. They’re standing up production. They’re going to have 2, 000 employees. The owner has a severe learning disability, which he’s kept hidden his whole life. And someone connected us, and we started talking about disability inclusion.

And he had the notion of, you know, hiring a few people to do some simple tasks. And then I took him to the Walgreens distribution center in Anderson, South Carolina, where 40% of their employees have disabilities. They’re the most productive of Walgreens distribution centers. They have the most efficiency, lowest turnover, lowest absenteeism, best safety record.

It’s all documented, and he and his team came out of there, um, super excited about disability inclusion, and their goal is to have 30% of their workforce, or 600 people with disabilities. So, I’m helping them connect with the right government agencies, nonprofit organizations, and community based organizations, so they can do that.

Uh, another is a company called NovaCoast, which is a cyber security company. Um, challenged in hiring enough qualified entry level, um, cybersecurity analysts, so struck upon the notion of, uh, tapping into the blindness community. So, we’ve created a 10 week virtual program, uh, to train blind people to be cybersecurity analysts and to sit for the first two industry certifications that are typically required when you apply for those types of jobs.

It’s called the Apex Program, so people can find it at theapexprogram.com. And we’re just launching with our first students. Uh, we have, um, I’ve had the opportunity to go to two cyber security conferences that NovaCoast puts on. And I’ve talked to probably 90 chief information security officers from Blue Cross Blue Shield, Kaiser Permanente, Chase, AT& T.

Um, big, big companies, they all face the same challenges, they can’t find enough cyber security people to hire them. They’re all very, very eager to interview any blind person who goes through this program and gets those two certifications. So those are two examples.

The um, so the cyber security. So, it’s a 10 week program, but do they need like a college degree before that 10-week program?

No, and I’m learning a lot about cyber. Degrees don’t matter. Certifications matter. So, this is 200 hours of training, 20 hours a week. You can get, you have to do 20 hours each week for 10 weeks. You can do the 20 hours whenever you want. But um, then there’s a one week of hands on with a mentor where you’re actually doing cyber security analyst work. And then you sit for the two certifications. They’re administered by Pearson. I’ve worked with them. So, the, the, the tests are accessible with screen readers. And people can do the tests from home using their own equipment. And the software they’re used to. So, I think, I think it’s going to be a winner, Tonya.

Oh, it sounds like it because then you’re not, so you’re able to work from home.

Yeah. There are some remote and there are some that require being on site just depends on the customer on the contract. But I will say this back to disclosing whether you disclose your disability, it’s really now you can decide based on is it going to be helpful to me to let them know I’m disabled or maybe not. So, if you look at companies, there’s an organization called Disability: In which you can go to their website

It’s 400 plus companies who’ve all made commitments to including people with disabilities in their workforce, in their product and service design and marketing and in their supply chain. So, to do business with disability owned business, but all of those companies have a specific target and commitment and mission to employ people with disabilities.

So in that case, it’s good that they know you have a disability. Um, another thing people can do if you’re thinking about working for a larger company is take a look at their website and just look for a couple things. I look at their diversity, equity, and inclusion statement. And does it specifically say disabilities in their official statement as the CEO or the board chair, um, made that statement?

Um, do they have. An Employee Resource Group, an ERG that’s focused on disability. And when you look at their, um, recruiting and hiring page, do they ask if you need any accommodations as a person for your disability? If, if it’s yes to all those things, then that is a company that has a predisposition to hiring people with disabilities. Um, I would move them up higher on my list.

So, one of the questions that always comes up and, um, and this goes back to, when, when Steve and I wanted to start our family, um, we were, we, we had years of fertility issues that we were working through. And so, we started looking into adoption. Um, I have multiple sclerosis.

On sight, you don’t know that I have it, but on MRIs, we know that I have it. And so, we were disclosing that. Um, but we were actually turned down by even the foster care system because in their mind I wasn’t healthy enough to raise a child. And so now this was, well, my, my daughter’s 22. So, this was probably about 25 years ago.

Um, at the same time I was running international programs in New England, student programs. And one of the families that I had hosting for me, the husband had MS. He disclosed it to me because he wanted to be fair to the child coming to live in the home because he knew there would be times when he would need, possibly need some type of medical treatment.

He wanted that to be open, but he wanted it to be clear that I could not say anything to anyone else because his job would be in jeopardy if they knew that he had MS. So, things have changed in 25 years. But I think you still have that.

They’ve changed some. There have been cases where a state agency has wanted to remove a child from two blind parents. And I… There are terrible, terrible stories.

It’s, you know, and to you and me because of our personal experience that makes no sense to us.

Right.

And, um, and so, so what I’m thinking now is, right, so I have two, two children who will be in the workforce soon. They’ll be through school and in the fairly near future, my, my pocketbook is hoping it’ll be sooner rather than later.

I’ve been there. I had two back-to-back myself.

But the, um, but both of them have disabilities that they’re going to have to decide, do I disclose this or do I not? And both of them are going to need accommodations. So, the question that’s coming to mind for me is, if you disclose it up front, you take the risk that you may not even get the interview, because they know about it. If you don’t disclose it up front, can you now still require that they provide accommodations for you?

Absolutely.

Okay.

Absolutely.

So, um, so you don’t have to disclose it until after you’ve gotten the job, if you don’t want to.

No, they can’t ask you either. But if you’re in a wheelchair or you have a long cane in your hand, you might as well just cut to the chase and say, say, you may be wondering how I’m going to successfully perform this job. And here’s how, because you want to be a problem solver, not a problem creator.

Right. And accommodations. I mean, ADA does provide protection that wasn’t there years ago.

Right.

Um, but getting past the point of them finding another reason not to hire you is kind of the challenge, I think. So, um, and that, I know what protections are there. I meet successful people all the time who are disabled. But my mind still says there has to be a certain percentage. of unfair situations that are still out there.

Oh, of course there are. Of course. I mean, you talk to the average, you know, employed blind person they’ve had to do, send out 20 times more resumes, and go on 10 times more interviews than, you know, the sighted people who have the same basic, you know, education experience.

And how many are taking another job because that’s the one they could get and not the one where they’re…

Yeah. So, um, I just want to mention the reality that to thrive as a person with a disability you have to do more stuff, uh, than your neighbor next door who doesn’t have a disability. You need to learn more, you need to develop, um, more patience and forgiveness and, um, resilience than the person next door.

So, in school… When I was at the American Foundation for the Blind, quite some years ago, they developed a concept called the Expanded Core Curriculum for Blind Kids. And it basically said, as a blind kid, you have to learn everything the sighted kids do, and these nine extra things that they don’t.

So that’s using assistive technology, traveling independently with a mobility device, um, advocacy is on the list. So that doesn’t end when school ends. Um, as an adult and in transition, um, it’s just the reality that you have to probably work harder and focus more and pay more attention and the flip side is, like I said earlier, that allows you to develop some really great strengths and skills.

Um, it also costs It costs more to be a person with a disability to have the tools and the assistive technology. And the flip side of that is, those tools and technologies exist, and they didn’t in the past. When I went to college, which was 1979, I took notes in class with a slate and stylus, which is a hand punch method of creating braille.

And I’d go back to my dorm at night and I’d recopy my notes. On a Perkins Brallier, which is another manual machine. I got one right here. And, um, you know, I just, I had to type, type my tests. Um, when I took my graduate record exam, my GREs, it wasn’t accessible. I had to have someone read me my test and record the answers.

They were not an econ person. So, it was very challenging having them try to describe graphs. I’m just, I’m just saying to you, there’s every opportunity in the world for you or your child to thrive and live a wonderful, wonderful life. But it, it doesn’t just happen. Um, it, it takes attention and work and focus and um, which is tiring.

And you need to build in self-care and build that network. And find some parents who have, who have kids with the same disability who may be a bit older than yours, so they’ve gone through some of this stuff. And, and again, I think it’s, um, relatively easy to find people to connect with now.

When I think, I don’t want to paint this rosy picture. I think this is important that we are talking about this part of it too. Because it is a reality. But parents who are at this stage where their children are getting older, they’ve already experienced this because school is the same type of, of challenge where their child has had to work harder. They’ve had to be creative in finding ways to overcome those. But as you pointed out, that’s creating skills that they’re going to be able to use. in their favor as they get older.

Yeah, so when I was 18 and went to college, uh, I had, I had mostly, I had my textbooks in braille through high school. Um, sometimes it would, you know, be the fifth, the third edition of the Spanish textbook while the other kids had the fifth, things like that.

Oh, right. But I, but I mostly got them. And then when I went to college, I got none. Um, just because, you know, the professors would put the syllabus together, you know, a couple weeks before the semester, whatever. So, I, I, I got, I got some of the books on cassette tape from Recording for the Blind. But I had a lot of books that I had to have read to me, so the State Department of Services for the Blind provided me with funds to hire readers as an accommodation they provided.

So, um. And, you know, I’d find another econ major who had to read the same book and say, would you like to make minimum wage and read that out loud? And, um, so as an 18-year-old, you know, I was interviewing people, uh, hiring people, scheduling, invoicing, um, firing people. So, you know, it was an experience my other classmates, freshmen in college, they weren’t having that experience. So that’s, that’s. There’s a silver lining to all of this. There’s some silver linings to all of this.

But they, I think most of our parents, unless their child is very young, um, they should have learned by now that thinking outside the boxes is a way of life and, um, and you can come up with some great, great way of ways of doing things that will help others around you that haven’t thought of that.

So, um, so I encourage everyone to, to get a little, little creative. There’s not always a. Direct path from A to B, but, um, but it can be a fun way of trying to find the challenge. I mean, your child can be involved with this too. And, um, and learning some ways to kind of navigate a little bit differently. And, um, and getting what they need. Um, like you’re saying with hiring your, your classmate in your, in your class. It was, it was a win-win as long as they were able to read it where you could understand what they were reading.

That’s I will recommend a website for families with blind kids. Um, American Foundation for the Blind developed it, it’s now housed at the American Printing House for the blind, but it’s, it’s called Family Connect and it’s for families with younger, with kids.

It’s for families with, with blind kids. So, there’s a lot of good resources there. I’m sure other disabilities have some, is it Family Connect? I think it’s Family connect.org. But it’s one word with a capital F and a capital C. If you put Family Connect in a search engine, it should come up.

We’ll double check all of that and put those in the show notes. From your experience, what are some effective ways for employees to communicate their accommodation needs to their employer or the HR department?

I think it has to be a team process. They are there to have successful employees. They want you to be able to be efficient and effective. I think to involve the Vocational Rehabilitation Agency in your state is a great idea. If it’s a, if you are not employed and you are becoming employed, um, The Voc Rehab System has resources that you are entitled to.

So that’s funded through the Department of Education. Um, each state has one or two Vocational Rehabilitation Agencies to get them involved. And, um, to be very collaborative and cooperative and approach it, um, from a learning standpoint for everybody. And also, not to suppose that you know… everything that you need because there’s lots of new stuff out there.

Um, when I was running the Lighthouse for the Blind, I can’t remember how many people we hired and we asked them what they wanted for accommodation and they would, they would mention a model and make of a CCTV, closed circuit television, from the 80s. And we’d say, there’s something 10 times better. 10 times cheaper and 10 times smaller.

So that’s what you’re, that’s what we’re going to give you. And we’ll, we’ll train you on it. So, I think to go into it from that collaborative team approach. With the understanding that everybody needs tools for their jobs. Um, standing desks are a thing. So, some people want a standing desk. These are people without disabilities. Some people want to sit on an exercise ball at their desk.

Yep.

Some, some people say I need to get my child to daycare so I’m going to need to come in at 9:15 instead of 8:45. So, employers who want good employees and happy employees, they make all kinds of arrangements for people. And people with disabilities just have a unique set of arrangements that need to be made. And, um, I. I’d go, go about it with that attitude.

Yeah, because you’re not, you’re not saying that you can’t do the job. You’re saying I can do the job. This is how I’m going to do it.

Well, yeah. I mean, people need pencils and pens and staplers and, uh, computers and monitors. And some people want two monitors, and some people want three. And like I say, every, uh, good, good employers will provide their employees with the tools and the training they need to be successful in their job.

I’m always curious. What are some common misconceptions or myths around hiring individuals with disabilities? We’ve mentioned a couple as we’ve talked. But are there some others?

I can tell you exactly what they are. Um, based on no data, employers are concerned about safety. Will this person cause safety incidents, safety hazards? Uh, there’s excellent research that shows organizations that intentionally include people with disabilities have better safety records primarily because people actually follow the safety policies and procedures that everyone should be following.

Another is around, um, legal stuff. Um, will I get sued if I fire this person with a disability? And the answer, again, is data shows that if you follow HR procedures and protocols, just like you do with everyone else, there’s no greater level of litigation around that.

And then the next one is about perceptions. Will fellow employees, will it, will it have adverse effects on their fellow employees and colleagues? And that answer is, employee satisfaction goes up in an inclusive environment, an environment that includes people with disabilities, that changes the culture to more of a team-oriented culture, a more highly communicative culture.

And then will customers be turned off if they see people with disabilities in my place of business? And again, the research shows that the opposite is true. That, um, customers, if they have a choice, tend to want to do business with the inclusive organization.

And I’ll throw in that there’s a fear of the expensive accommodations and, um, most accommodations are either no cost or under $500. It’s very exceptional to have a more expensive one. So those are the main fears, and they’re all unfounded, and they’re all actually opposite of the truth.

So, if it’s, so if it were a situation where, and I don’t know if you’re equipped to answer this question or not, but I’m going to throw it out there anyway. Um, if it were a situation where, um, I mean like you had mentioned a standing desk, someone wants it, you may have someone who actually needs it. Um, those aren’t, aren’t cheap. If that’s there, does that fall on the employer to have to fund?

Yes, um, well, yes and no. If, if it’s a, if it’s a new work situation, if the person was not employed and they’re being hired by a company, so they are, their status is changing from unemployed to employed, then the vocational rehabilitation system should be involved and they are obligated to purchase the equipment and make the accommodations that are needed for that employment situation.

The ADA does allow for small employers of a certain size to not be required to provide accommodations should it, um, create an unusual financial hardship. But, um, I’m, I’m pretty sold on corporate America and finding those companies that are embracing disability inclusion. They have budgets for that. They have accommodations processes.

They have a centralized budget for accommodations. So… You know, the expense doesn’t fall on individual departments. So again, um, you know, those kinds of those signs we talked about. Do they have disability inclusion in their DEI statement? Um, do they have an employee resource group devoted to disabilities?

Do they ask if you need accommodations in their hiring and recruiting page? So those, those, those types of organizations are, are not going to have any Difficulties or friction or tension around accommodations.

Okay. So, yeah, because I had wondered if, if, uh, Voc Rehab would be part of that if you’re, so if you’re starting out, they may be, depending on the situation.

Yeah, now if I’m working for company X and I get hired by company Y, Voc Rehab isn’t involved because I’m maintaining employment. Um, also if you are in the workforce and you are, um, becoming disabled if you have a degenerative condition and you get to the point where you are disabled. Uh, Voc Rehab can also be called to come in to help you retain and maintain your employment.

Okay. Okay, good. The um, and parents, we’ve, we’ve mentioned Voc Rehab before, but if you haven’t heard those, um, at, I’m assuming this is the same in all states. At age 14, you can refer your child, um, for a consultation with them, or they can self-refer themselves or a teacher can refer them. They’re, pretty much anyone can, can refer the child from starting at age 14.

And I would highly recommend that you get involved with them at that point to start talking about their education beyond high school. They can help you with IEP meetings. They may have some resources.

Yeah, many Voc Rehab agencies have summer work experience programs for older high school kids. Um, they, they have a lot of resources that are underutilized.

Yeah. And unless your school has mentioned it to you, you may not be familiar with that. So, um, so that’s any, any, anytime we can mention these that pretty much every state’s going to have everyone who’s listening, who’s in the U S at least can, can, can, can look, look for this.

The other thing for blind parents, since we’re parents of blind children or blind parents, uh, National Library Service for the Blind and Print Disabled is a great resource. To, to, uh, borrow braille books. They have print braille books that have both print and braille for the little ones.

I mean, I read them too, since I’m blind, I read those to my kids, uh, when they were little. Um, lots of books on disability. Lots of books on parenting kids with disabilities. So, National Library Service, NLS. gov. Great resource available in every state.

Do you have any strategies or programs that you would recommend for companies to use that would raise awareness or promote a better understanding of disabilities with their workers?

Yeah, I think, uh, Disability In, uh, has a tool called the Disability Equality Index and it’s on their website, disabilityin.org, but it’s a self-assessment tool that companies can use. It’s very thorough and it covers every aspect of a company. A ask asks questions that will give you an indication of areas where you may need to, um, focus to be, become better as far as disability inclusion goes.

Um, so that, so that, that’s one. Um, it really depends. I think partnering with nonprofits is a great way in every community there’s. of any size. There are community based nonprofits that have a mission of, um, supporting people with disabilities in employment. And so, to do two things. One, if a company is interested in hiring people with disabilities, connect with your state vocational rehabilitation agency.

There’s a research study that shows out of those companies who say they, uh, want to hire more people, people with disabilities, less than 10% are connected with vocational rehabilitation system. And they, uh, an example in California, there’s 8, 000 blind people with open cases with their blindness VR agency right now.

So, there’s 8, 000 people, um, they each have a vocational rehabilitation counselor. They have a resume. They have an individual, individualized plan for employment. So, in Washington state where I live, there’s probably about 1400 blind people with open cases with the Department of Services for the Blind. So yeah, connect, um, just do a little search engine work and find out the nonprofits in your community that have that mission and connect with.

Vocational Rehabilitation Agency. First off, after they fall off their chair, um, with joy that an employer has reached out to them and wants to hire people, uh, they, they’ll give you lots of help.

Is there anything that you want to add to what we’ve discussed on that?

Uh, to be successful in any major endeavor, you have to align all the stakeholders. So, there, there’s silos out here, but there are organizations and agencies that have a common goal, and that’s to get more people with disabilities in the workforce. So, really it takes government, corporations, nonprofits, and the community working together.

So what I do in my consulting practice is basically find the right people from each of those groups and bring them together around a table, uh, virtual or real, and, say, define our common goal, and then look at roles and processes, who, who, who has what programs, who has what assets, how can we fit all these together to create pathways for people with disabilities and into careers.

So, um. Yeah, if you’re a company, reach out to the nonprofits and the Voc Rehab. If you’re a Voc Rehab person, reach out to your companies and nonprofits and around, around, around the circle.

We, we’ve talked in past episodes about, um, um, some of the, like the, between SSI, SSDI, um, as parents are looking for future planning for the child, things like that. Um, but what we’re talking about today would actually eliminate the need for that. If we can get a young adult into a career that would support them.

Yeah. Yes. Those things are, are resources and they, they need to be considered and, um. A couple things. Many, many people don’t use those assets to their fullest as far as the, for instance, gainful employment, the types of expenses that you can put up against the gainful employment limit.

So, each, each area in the country has an ombudsman that is paid for by the Social Security Administration. That’s to help you with your benefits planning. To understand it all, to take full advantage. They’re usually a, a, a nonprofit that’s contracted by SSA. But, um, to find your Social Security Ombudsman is a really smart, good thing to do.

They don’t, it doesn’t cost you anything, but you can really understand it and use it to full advantage. And then it’s, you know, career planning and benefits planning as your, your child gets to school to work transition. To take that into account, to understand. What, what kind of, uh, wages they would need, um, to move, um, beyond that resource. So, it, it’s, it’s important to use it, but it’s also important not to get stuck by it. So…

Well, that’s what I’m thinking, because there are so many financial limitations if they are relying on that.

And I know many, many families are reluctant to, um, separate from that, um, source of income. But there, there are trial periods and ramp up periods. Um, so really incumbent upon you as a parent of a child with a disability to understand it. And again, there are people who are paid to help you understand. And, uh, so find your Social Security Ombudsman.

So, how are you spelling that?

Ombudsman. O M B U D S M A N. And I think it’s a formal designation. They’re all called that, so. If you just, uh, if you live in Pittsburgh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, just, you know, if you live in Pittsburgh, search Pittsburgh social security ombudsman and, uh, something will come up.

Yeah. I’ve never heard of that before. So that, that’s, uh, another.

We used it a lot when we were running the Lighthouse for the Blind here in Seattle, we had, you know, 250 people were blind and deaf, blind, many who were on SSDI. And our mission was to get as many people beyond that resource into self-sufficiency. Right. So, we, we had individual benefits counseling done, um, for many, many, many people.

So that, and that, it’s a question that I had not asked anyone before, but to me, to me that the potential of earning increases dramatically if we can get someone into a career.

Yes, absolutely. And then, again, we’ve, I’ve had experiences where people would not want to be promoted, or would not want to take extra training, uh, or would not want to work full time, um, in fear of losing that check. So, it, it, it’s a thing, and, uh, it needs to be, um, considered and it needs to be utilized to the fullest. If your child has a disability, they’re entitled to that resource, but they shouldn’t be constrained by that.

Right. So, to dig into it and there are children who are going to need it. Mm hmm. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. It is there for a reason. Right. Um, but I don’t want that to be the automatic fail safe that every parent is going to go to. If there’s other options for their child, too. Because you’re talking about your first job. You realized that that was not your career path that it should be. Let’s help them find a fulfilling future path for themselves, for each of these children.

Yeah, and, you know, kids with developmental disabilities, multiple disabilities, the leading cause of blindness in infants now is cortical visual impairment. So, it’s not the eye function, it’s how the brain processes information. So, most of those kids have additional developmental disabilities. Um, there are so many different, um, supports and networks to help your child thrive and thrive. Um, you know, live as fully as possible. So, I’ve worked with hundreds of nonprofits who support people in employment with severe and multiple disabilities. So, there’s job carving, and job sharing, and job coaches, and uh, all sorts of resources. So, you just need to um, you know, reach out and connect with those resources.

So, Kirk, how we we’ve talked about a lot of different things here. How can our listeners get in touch with you?

Yeah, I use LinkedIn a lot. So, Kirk Adams, if you just put in Kirk Adams, Seattle, I should come up. My consulting firm is called Innovative Impact LLC. The website is under construction. Or you can just email me and it’s my first name and last name followed by three zeros at Gmail. So [email protected]. And I’d love to talk with anyone who’s listening that I can be helpful to so please don’t hesitate to reach out by email or on LinkedIn.

So, parents that are listening can contact you. Would you, um, also, um, be open to businesses if someone’s, um, working with a business that may want to know more about inclusion?

Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Excellent. So, what other projects do you have going on? Anything else you want to share with us?

Oh, boy. Um. I’m, I’m, uh, involved in a couple of startups. I’m learning how to do crowdfunding. So, I’m raising some funds for a company called Curb Cut OS for curb cut operating system that helps companies make sure all of their apps and websites and things are accessible and a very small part owner of that.

And then I’m. Also involved in a startup called EYE C Better, E Y E, letter C, Better. And it is a platform to support, um, people in managing their glaucoma. And, uh, my excitement is their business plan calls for hiring, uh, several hundred patient care coordinators. And they’re eager to have, um, qualified blind and visually impaired applicants for those jobs.

So, that, that’s, that’s, employment is my thing, so. Company says their business plan calls for employing people who are blind. I’m, I’m all, I’m all over it. Those are a couple more things.

And then, um, for your, for your main company, um, how, so how business is coming to you, are you going out and finding them, how are you connecting?

Um, mostly it’s been people I’ve known. I’ve been in this disability employment space for about 30 years. And when I decided to make a change and, uh, the American Foundation for the Blind announced, uh, last spring that I was, um, exiting, I was contacted by four or five, um, companies and individuals I’d, I’d developed relationships with to ask if I was available, um, you know, to, to work on some projects as a consultant, and then people just refer folks.

I, I just, uh, signed an engagement today, a really interesting one. There’s a non profit here in Seattle called Seattle Theatre Group. They manage three historic, iconic theaters that are event spaces and concert spaces. And they’ve got about 500 volunteers and 100 staff. And they want to be… more inclusive of people with disabilities throughout their organization.

And, um, so I’m going to do a discovery process with them, just interview their leadership, find out what they mean by disability inclusion, find out where they’re at so far, find out what they’ve done, find out who they’re partnering with, and then I’ll be able to come back to them with some recommendations of how to accelerate, um, progress toward that goal of being disability inclusive.

Nice. It’s an exciting thing that you’re doing, it’s um, I mean, it, it’s gotta be, it’s gotta be hard in trying to get all the connections and the training and all, but so fulfilling whenever you see the end of that project.

Oh, I’m having fun.

And how many staff are now being included that would not have been looked at before.

My goal is to get a thousand people with disabilities employed this calendar year through my efforts. So I think, I gotta hustle. To get there. But I can. It’s doable.

So we’re, we’re in May, so how far are you now?

Uh, probably 150, 175.

Okay, so that’s a start.

Yeah.

Well, I can picture it snowballing too though once you get going.

Yeah, it’ll be a bigger goal next year.

Right, right.

We’ll start with, we’ll bite off a thousand here for this year.

Well, Kirk, thank you for spending some time with me today and talking through all these questions that I had. I think the information you’ve shared has been wonderful. Thank you for spending this time.

Absolutely. It was a pleasure. And again, anyone who wants to get in touch, feel free. Don’t hesitate. Don’t be shy. Just email me, kirkadams000 at Gmail. com. Looking forward to talking to you.

The post Episode #67: Changing the Narrative: Shattering Stereotypes of Disability in the Workplace appeared first on Water Prairie.

Show Notes:

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

In this captivating interview, we delve into the world of postnatal depletion and its impact on exhausted mothers with renowned expert Christiane Panesar. Join us as we explore the fascinating link between baby ‘colic’, gut health, and mental well-being. Christiane shares her wealth of knowledge, providing invaluable insights and practical strategies to help mothers conquer fatigue, support their babies’ gut health, and reclaim their own vitality. Discover the hidden connections between a mother’s well-being, her baby’s health, and the path to postnatal recovery. This episode is a must-listen for any mother looking to break free from exhaustion, embrace self-care, and thrive in all areas of life.

Please note, all information provided during this interview is for entertainment purposes only and should not replace the advice of your doctor and therapist.

Connect with Christiane:

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used:

“LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

 Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Christiane Panesar specializes in helping exhausted mothers conquer fatigue (while helping their babies sleep) so that they can ditch the Postnatal Depletion and become the mother, the business woman, and the lover they know to be. She created Postnatal Depletion Recovery to support mothers who have been putting themselves last for far too long, so that they can make the shift from Zombie to Goddess IN WEEKS, not decades. In fact, her clients now have plenty of energy for family, business AND themselves even if they are juggling being a mom and a business owner, have a baby with ‘colic’ or eczema, or are pregnant.

Full Transcript of Interview:

Tonya: Our guest today is Christiane Panesar. Christiane specializes in helping exhausted mothers conquer fatigue while helping their babies sleep so that they can ditch the postnatal depletion and become the mother, the businesswoman and the lover.

They know they can be Christiane. That’s a, that’s a lot of information there. Can you tell us a little bit more about who you are and, and a little bit of, of what you do?

Christiane: Definitely. First of all, thanks for having me, Tonya. And, um, Yeah. How I came to this topic was, uh, really through my own story and my own children.

Um, after I overcame my, my own health challenges, I found it Heart-Food Holistic cuz I wanted to help others. But when I became a mother for the first time, I hit like a totally new wall of difficulties that I didn’t expect. Well, I really, and you probably, you might know what I’m talking about. Well, I really tried to prepare myself for, for pregnancy, healthy pregnancy, healthy childbirth, and postpartum.

I had like no idea really what postpartum meant because nobody really shared with me, um, about their difficulties in postpartum before. So I, I really just expected I’d be back up my up on my feet after a few days. Um, But what I didn’t know was that I would encounter this extreme, extreme sleep deprivation.

Um, you might be able to relate, like I was sleeping on average about three hours at night. And the problem was that baby would just not sleep like she was up till almost four or 5:00 AM every day. And we went through like a typical case of what people would call baby colic. Um, and then the thing was when she finally slept, then I couldn’t sleep anymore because I was just in this extreme hypervigilance where I could not shut down anymore.

I was so worked up, I was so worried about her. Um, and I really felt like I was going insane at that time and felt really ashamed that I was going through this and that I. Couldn’t handle things better. And I had just like the wrong expectations of everything as well. And I just didn’t know what was going on with me, what I was doing wrong, why she wasn’t sleeping.

And I also didn’t expect this kind of change in me, like from feeling like really capable to all of a sudden not being able to do like a healthy snack for myself anymore. And the weird thing was that I could take care of baby without a problem, but I could just not take care of myself anymore. I had like no sense of self care, anything like that.

And I didn’t know why I was feeling so depleted, although I ate what was generally deemed as healthy. And I was already a nutritional consultant at that time, but not even nutrition school taught me how to help my baby and myself. So then I. The day my midwife popped by to see how I was doing. I could see on her face how I was doing, reflected back, like she was just so shocked to see this transformation in me.

And she added the words postpartum depression. And it really shocked me in a good way because I was like, oh my God, like this is what might be going on with me. I’m not crazy. There’s actually some explanation for what I’m going through. And I think this is really important for moms to hear because so many moms are being sent home by the doctor with just anxiety pills and reflex meds for baby.

And the recommendation to just wait it out and. That really igni ignited a spark in me when I, when I heard that possible diagnosis of depression, and I went through like a few low points. Um, when and when I really realized how bad things were. Like one, uh, one time, which I share a lot with, with my moms, um, is where I was breaking down on the ground with my baby in my arm and I was crying and my husband came rushing and, and he said, what’s wrong with the baby?

And I was like, oh, the baby is okay. I’m not okay. And I started yelling at him and it was really good for me to, to actually speak it out loud that I’m not okay and I need help. And I could see like, while this self-sacrifice, um, being so selfless is very noble, um, as moms, but I could see it was really going in a actually dangerous way.

And it, it wasn’t like that I couldn’t take care of my baby anymore, but it was just going in a direction of just the thought of, oh my God, if I’m not. Doing well, she won’t be doing well. And I really, just like a lightweight went on in me. And, um, so I started to look into this and I found out that there’s actually more than just postpartum depression.

There’s something that’s called postnatal depletion, and that’s a syndrome that affects one out of two mothers. It’s estimated. And baby colic actually affects one out of four babies. And that’s just the official numbers. And I, I strongly believe that the unofficial numbers are much higher than that. And because I know it’s a hard thing for moms to realize and to talk about.

So for me, I just couldn’t accept this. Well just wait it out. This is just normal. I couldn’t just keep on watching my baby suffer and not do anything about it to help her. So something in me also didn’t believe that it was true, that there’s nothing I could do about it. So I wanted to turn things around and, um, This postnatal depletion to, to stop this postpartum depression.

And it was a journey. But fast forward, I found out how to help my baby with a colic and sleep, which made all the difference for her and for us. And I found out how to help myself get over postnatal depletion, where I used my postnatal depletion recovery system, which I’m now helping moms with. And postnatal depletion is just something we have to take care of.

Like I, I just had this strong urge to, after my own experience, to share this with moms and, and tell moms, okay, you don’t have to wait it out. You don’t have to suck it up. You can, you don’t need to wait for things to get worse, but you can actually overcome this and in way less time than, than I needed to overcome this.

Wow. You know, you think about, um, especially because my target audience or families with special needs children, we find it easy sometimes to fight for our children. But you’re right to recognize a need in ourselves so that we can be that stronger advocate for our children. It’s important. And that starts from those early, early days when we’re, we are all exhausted.

No one can go through that stage and not be exhausted it. Um, so it hits all of us at different ways. So I’m, I’m looking forward to hearing more about this as, as, as we talk more,

and that’s can be such a good motivation. You’re totally right, Tony. Um, because often we might not speak up for ourselves or ask for help for ourselves, but when it’s about our baby, like then, then we do.

And I wasn’t really good at this before, became a mother to ask for help, and I’m still not the best at it, but I did it because it wasn’t just for my own sake, but for, for my children.

Right, right. Well, we’re gonna talk more, but this season I’ve been asking each of my guests to prepare a little game that we’re gonna play and it’s called Two Truths and a Lie.

If you have not been listening or are not familiar with the game, the guest is sharing three. Facts or pseudo facts about themselves. And it’s our job as listeners to decide which two we think are true and which one is a lie. And we’ll be posting these on Instagram and Twitter, and we’ll an we’ll post the answer a week after this episode releases.

So if you wanna try to post your guess out, um, go to those platforms, or you can put it in the notes on the, the YouTube video and check back a week later to see the answer. So, Christiane, what are your two truths and a lie that you’d like to share with us?

So number one, I live on an acreage in Canada.

So make sure that, that you try to see if you can guess, guess what the answers are here and we will post the final answer in, in a week after this is posted.

But for the reason that we’re on the, the call today, we wanted to talk some more about what we can learn on how to help both the babies and our moms. And um, so I know a lot of our parents that are listening may have older children, but sometimes they have larger families and they may be back through the stage again.

And if not, they can at least help those neighbors and, and family members who are going into the stage of life that we’re talking about. So, Christiane, what are some of the common misconceptions about baby colic? I know what I’ve kind of heard, but what have, what else is out there that, that parents may have heard about or been told when they had their children who may have had colic?

So first of all, colic is a term that people, especially doctors use when they actually don’t know why the baby is crying. So a common definition of colic is when a baby’s crying lasts for more than three hours a day happens for more than three days a week, and occurs for more than three weeks.

So that’s, that’s the definition of colic. It’s, it’s being defined by the length of a baby’s crying. So it’s a total misconception that this is just about the hours of the baby’s crying about, um, right, that it’s normal, that it’s harmless, cuz it’s, that’s what people are being told and that it goes away on its own.

So these are all misconceptions cuz what most often happens is that things rather grow into even bigger problems, which can show in other symptoms such as eczema, ear infections, food sensitivities, or behavior problems slash mental health problems. So a big problem here is really the normalization of colic, which leads to that we’re not listening to our children’s symptoms anymore cuz they’re being told it’s just normal and we should just wait it out.

Um, and often the only solution a doctor has to offer is, um, symptoms, suppressing meds, suppressing the healthy stomach acid and to wait it out, which is really not a good idea because we actually don’t get to why the baby’s actually crying. Like, what is the root cause? Um, it’s all just being put under the same umbrella.

And if we, if we shut down digestion by suppressing our healthy stomach acid, you can imagine that that’s not a good idea, especially if we do it like for a long period of time. And that’s where so many problems can come from. So we really need to ask the question, why is the baby crying and what is the baby communicating to us?

Interesting. Now, my, my experience, my second child, my son was diagnosed with colic and it was the case that you’re talking about where changing the formula, it, it was all digestive issues. That was what we were told, that it was just a matter of maybe he couldn’t tolerate one type of milk, he had to have a different type.

Um, and it was just pretty much grin and bear it until he got past that stage. And, um, and it was a long, a long period of time with, with a lot and on my side, a lot of checking on him to make sure that he was dry, um, fed, you know, safe wherever he was, nothing was wrapped around his fingers causing any pain and just letting him cry it out.

Um, and that’s, that’s what we were told to do. So exactly how you’ve described it is, is the way that we were told to address it. I spent lots of hours washing dishes in the kitchen so that the water would help. Soothe my nerves while I’m trying not to hear it quite as loud in the, in the, the background.

So, um, yeah, so speaking of that, having them cry it out and, you know, checking on those safety things that you wanna check on first, how can a mother differentiate between that normal crying that all babies are gonna go through, cuz that’s their first way of communicating and colic type of crying?

Yeah, good question. Um, first of all, I wanna say here that it’s really important that mothers actually trust their gut instinct. Like if they feel there’s something you’re not quite right with baby, please investigate. Like, even if others, even health practitioners say it’s normal because like you are the expert of your baby. And by the way, you’re also the expert of your own body. So it’s, it’s, it’s really important to, to trust that. And second, um, not every crying is the same. Like if it’s a sudden intense crying, for example, and baby hasn’t been startled or anything like that, it can be a hint of that there’s a baby’s experiencing pain.

Or if baby’s just inconsolable for the longest time and not even milk or rocking and nothing works, like that’s, that’s another sign that there’s something not quite right. Um, and what we call colic often comes together with other symptoms other than crying. Crying is also just a symptom really, such as other symptoms could be like a tight tummy or a gas, or when baby does what looks like baby crunches, like just crunching together or baby making fists or arching back or any, any redness on the skin or what we call diaper rash.

It’s. Not, not necessarily from diapers. Quite often it’s, it’s not just from the diapers, um, eczema and these kinds of things. And also if there’s any odd stool or any hard stool, for example, constipation. So those are also other symptoms. So to see, okay, there’s, there’s something going on. And, but again, it’s not about determining if it’s colic or not because colic isn’t a disease like what we call colic.

It’s really just a symptom as well. Um, but it is about listening, um, to our children’s messages. And if it’s unusual crying or other unusual behavior and other symptoms I, I just mentioned. So, so colic is just a symptom and that like crying is attributed, attributed to something unknown. So that’s how it’s basically defined.

So what we need to do is really find out what is that unknown, what is the root cause, and um, it’s really worth investigating for. For parents. Like it’s even if you find, okay, it was just something harmless or it’s just actually that, but why, why risk that baby, um, has disadvantaged for the rest of her life because we overlooked something.

And, and I heard that story like quite often that moms have been told, oh, this is normal. And then they found out like a year and a half later that, that it wasn’t. It’s really important for moms to not, uh, follow this “wait it out” advice and “it’s just normal.”

And I wanna give an example of, um, uh, somebody named Lynn who was given that advice and she was, uh, going through depletion and baby colic and really tried to help her baby, but just could not find out what it is. And doctor said, well just, just wait it out. Um, It’ll go away. So she really tried to be a hero and tried to push through and tried to push past her depletion.

And she even kept on working out with a personal trainer and tried to be so healthy, but she felt like crying when working out. And when her son was already a year and a half old, she found out that there actually was a real reason for her babies endless crying in a year and a half of sleepless nights.

But by then it was too late for, for Lynn, cuz she’d reached her breaking point and she ended up with adrenal fatigue and an autoimmune condition that she’s still dealing with eight years later. So mom’s really like don’t just, uh, settle with this is normal. You’re a mom now, and your baby’s crying is normal.

Like if your gut’s telling you there’s something not quite right, um, follow that and just look into it. In the worst case you find out, okay, actually we are okay. But in the best case, like you find something and you actually are able to take care of it.

So think, thinking back again for my son. So we’ve always talked about how he was such an intense baby and part of it was a lot of what you described describes my son, um, to the point where we could pick him up underneath his armpit.

And hold him, and he, his body would be so tight that he was just ramrod straight. It’s just, he was just so bunched up. Um, with, with tenseness. And that was during this time that we were told that he had colic. Um, so it makes sense. He also had had the, the eczema and, um, you know, and, and very sensitive skin.

Yeah. So I’m sure a lot of these things are there. So for a young parent that’s listening to this, so you’re telling them to investigate, where are they going to investigate? Are they going to the doctor that told them it was colic? Or how do they know where to start with this?

Yeah, so I definitely, um, like check connections.

Like for example, when they just ate something and then after that they’re like altered, like they’re, they’re crying or they’re cranky, or there’s okay, all of a sudden the skin’s flushing or something like that. Um, and to, to actually take note like yourself, because every baby is different. So they’re, there’s also not just like one.

One or two things you do for colic for everybody. Like it doesn’t work like that. It’s, it’s about symptoms and looking at or keep the connection where it’s coming from. And if you have a good doctor that can actually, you know, help you with that, that would be great. But unfortunately, most doctors are simply not trained in that.

Um, not even pediatricians unfortunately. So it’s something, it’s something we do in like a thorough assessment. It’s something I do with my clients, um, with mom and baby and we gotta look at mom and baby together. Like, they’re like, um, really intertwined. And um, also like, we do like a lot of, uh, like working over a period of time to work with the body’s feedback.

Cuz we’ve really gotta see, okay, how does, how does that body work? How does that body likes this? Like, how did this work? And if it doesn’t work, we gotta fine tune and adjust. So yeah.

I like, I like the point that you made about, um, keeping notes and just kind of recording what’s happening. Cuz then you’ll start to see patterns with it and um, and so I, I, I wish I had had you when, when, when my son was small cuz it would’ve been easier, I think to at least just to know that some of those concerns that we had and, you know, was it a feeding issue?

Was it, was it an allergy of some sort, you know, the, the eczema that was already showing up. Things like that, you know, where is that happening and not being able to really know beyond just being told this was just a normal phase. So I, I think this is, this is great information that you’re providing here.

And I wish I could give you like a quick answer here, but it could be like, many, many things like food, food issues can be, can be one problem. Especially because baby is so, has such a brand new system, right? Like it can’t just handle. Things, how, how we can as adults. Um, and like foods can be one thing, but it’s not necessarily always the cause.

Like it could just be one trigger of something else going on in the gut. Like it could be like microbes, for example, or they could be even toxins in, in the body easily from, from food, from sprayed food comes through the breast milk, from things from formula, things in our environment. Um, so like there’s unfortunately not like one, one quick answer, but, but just to really actually start asking questions and looking at it and what’s actually going on, instead of just labeling it is, oh, this is just colic.

We just have to wait months and it’s gonna get better instead of actually like investigating, if that makes sense.

Right. No, I, I, I, I really like, like that this is being shared. The, um, now you talked a little bit about your connection. With getting started with this, but what inspired you to focus on the link between baby colic and gut health and mental health? The three of those together?

Yeah. Definitely my experience with my, with my own, um, daughter, especially with the first, first one, I have two daughters. Um, the first one is four now, the other one is two. But with my first daughter, um, uh, when she went through colic, like she was just inconsolable. And it, it came to a point, like people always told me, oh, it’s gonna get better.

It’s gonna get better. And like, I tried to do all the things right. We got the, we got the family bed, the big, we bought the big mattress, the king mattress. We bought this swiveled sleep. So she would be as close as possible to me if I ever wanna put her in her own bed. We bought like the whatever, four moms, uh, electric swing that would swing her at night.

Like nothing worked, nothing. And she woke up like, like it got worse and worse till to a point where she woke up every 45 minutes to nurse.. And she just needed that comfort. And it just, Drove me crazy. Like I really wanted to do that for her, but I just could not. But right when we actually started asking questions and looked into her gut health and started taking care of things, she was a totally different child.

Like she was calm, happy. She actually slept, she slept for like at first three hours at a time, which was unheard of before then, five hours at a time. So it was like so obvious that connection between her emotional and mental wellbeing and um, actually that what we call colic or, uh, gut health and actually taking care of the problem.

And then again, when she was two and a half, she developed an eczema, um, starting on her private parts. And it, uh, it looked really bad, like it was like a burn and it really hurted her and bothered her. And then it was in her beautiful face, and then eventually it moved to the whole body and. Again, I could have just brushed it off as, oh, it’s a normal two year old terrible tooth.

Um, just going through these emotions cuz it came with like extreme, extreme emotions and it was like, like not that she was never upset before or never had a meltdown before or after, but it just a sudden just changed to this extremeness and when, when the rash came. So I was like, okay, there, there must be some connection.

Um, but we could have just been like, well this is normal. Uh, they must grow out of eczema. That’s what people say and we’ll just slap on some steroids. Um, but we actually like, like I actually felt like there was something for me to listen to, something to do. And we actually took care of it by number one by adjusting her nutrition.

Um, and again, that’s very individual because you know what was right for her might not be right for another baby. So we had to work a lot with the feedback, uh, for her. Then number two, actually cleansing her, her system gently, and number three, also taking care of emotional and energetic factors.

And again, after that she was like a totally different child. So it was just so interesting and obvious that connection, but I actually was already interested in that topic, like when it was about my own, um, health and the connection to my mental health, and it was just, again, so obvious. And also from working with clients, um, for over 10 years.

It, it’s just like a very obvious thing and there are lots and lots of, um, studies on that as well. So yeah, I basically got interested in it because of my, my own story. Um, and, and it’s good we went through this because now I can, I can help others, um, with that. So it’s all good for something.

Well, the way that you’re explaining it, I can see how they all go together because even if it’s just the eczema and nothing else, that’s painful.

Where she, where she had it especially. And so you can only take so much irritation before it starts wearing away your patience as an adult. Even if you have an area that’s that’s uncomfortable, your, your patience is shorter. Your temporary is shorter. Yeah. And so thinking of a two year old even more so, you would see, see those little outbursts and things too.

When I introduced you, I mentioned the term postnatal depletion and you’ve mentioned that as well, many of our new mother mother’s experience exhaustion, but what sets postnatal depletion apart from exhaustion?

Yeah. Um, so postnatal depletion is a syndrome that includes exhaustion, but it’s not limited to it. And it has to do with the depletion from pregnancy, uh, childbirth and postpartum. And so many moms, they’re already depleted as they enter pregnancy. Then they create this baby human, um, from her own resources, even if she doesn’t have enough.

And nature always favors the baby. Like the placenta actually shoves the nutrients to the baby, even if mom is depleted. And it’s a wonderful mechanism because any mom would want that. But it comes at the cost of the mother who’s very often being left depleted. And, um, then childbirth is just this major transcendental and taxing life event, uh, of a woman.

And then when she would actually need to rest and recover, then she’s taking care of her baby pretty much 24 7. And there’s just not enough support for moms in our modern society. And moms often think they should do, do it alone and. It really doesn’t have to be just one or the other. Like we can actually take care of mom and of baby, so we don’t have to completely sacrifice for baby.

And it’s, it’s also not really good for baby, like mom needs to be taken care of too. And baby’s health is also dependent on mom’s health as we, as we, um, touched upon. So just the, the depletion is something that actually happens physically. It’s a real thing. Um, so for example, a mother’s brain actually shrinks 5% to 8% during pregnancy.

So this is something we need to take care of and, and nourish and replete. And it’s also a postal depletion is also a thing that affects mothers, um, mentally and emotionally. So it happens on, on several levels and affects really all spheres of a mother’s life. So it’s not just exhaustion, although that’s a big part of it and it’s very common.

It’s not just to new mothers, but all mothers. And often it affects mothers even later. Like sometimes it’s the first child that really takes it out of us. But often it’s that things are being compounded as, um, the, the more children we have. And, um, it’s, yeah, it’s very common and it, it can last for a long time.

So this advisor, or just wait it out, it’s gonna be over after, whatever, three months or six months. It’s in most cases, like this can last like five to 10 years if we’re not taking care of it properly. And also it can turn into, into other problems. Again, it’s just all. Symptoms, like the body’s messages of telling us there’s something going on.

And if we’re not taking care of the body of the person, then the body’s gonna give us louder and louder messages till we take care. And this is a book by Dr. Gabor Mate, um, which, which I studied under as well. Um, it’s called When the Body Says No, so like till we’re actually listening to our body saying, no, okay, you haven’t had enough.

You gotta take care of yourself. And eventually the body will say no for us. And so many moms end up with adrenal fatigue and autoimmune conditions and it’s just very, very common with moms. And the longer we wait, the more difficult it is to repair.

Wow. Wow. Yeah, cuz I’ve, you’re the first person I’ve talked to that I’ve ever heard that, that term before. So that’s why I was, I was wondering how, yeah. How recent is it since they’ve, they’ve been talking about this. Is it, is it really recent?

Very recent, yeah. Just in the last few years. Although it’s not a new thing. Although I believe it’s more common in modern society than it used to be. But even like we, we talked to just like, uh, grandma lately, and her, um, aunt was like also being put in a mental institution during postpartum.

She just could not handle it. It was, it was too much. So it’s, it’s not a new thing. But I think, um, just with the, the modern medical system and how society is just not supporting moms, I think that’s actually, um, more and more common. But it, but the term is a new term and only, only slowly the medical world is actually putting attention to this.

So they are, there are, um, health expert doctors that, that are like treating this, but it’s like, it’s, it’s very hard to find. So that’s why I really, uh, wanted to specialize on this because like, I, it took me a long time to find help and I had to pull it together from so many different angles.

Yeah. Well, cuz, cuz you hear, um, postpartum depression when you mention that that’s, that’s something that at least in my lifetime has been tossed around. You hear you hear of that quite often, but this is not the same thing. Um, exactly. It sounds like that could be part of this, but not exactly the full piece.

Like I would say postpartum depression is actually part of postnatal depletion. Um, and, and like when I, when I went through this, I was so glad to find out about this because I was like, well, either it’s postpartum depression or not. So either we’re right, okay, or we’re totally depressed, postpartum, depressed, but that there’s actually, there’s so many stages in between that moms can be like a little bit depleted.

It can be severely depleted. It can, it can address more those on those levels. For this mom and for another mom, it’s more. Different levels and expresses itself in different ways. So, um, right. Yeah. It’s really good for moms to see, okay, there’s actually a real thing going on with me. It’s the real health condition and, and there’s something I can do about this, and there’s help.

So I don’t just have to have to, um, suck it up as a mom because this is what it’s like being a mom. And that’s what moms have been told, unfortunately.

Right. Well, I’m thinking too of how many, how many moms I know. Um, I mean, I even had with, with my first, um, toxemia going into, to the delivery. So for the last month, my body was fighting its own health with trying to carry my child at the same time.

So now I’m trying to care for her, internally, trying to care for myself. So I didn’t hit the delivery stage at the optimum health level that it could have been. You know? And how many others have had, have had medical issues that they’re facing that may. Have jeopardized the pregnancy, so they’re having to go on bedrest, things like that.

So they’re already going in depleted before they even go to the delivery itself. And then, um, and then the, as you say, you know, you’ve, you’ve pretty much, you’re the baby’s here surprise. You’re, you’re taking care of this baby 24 hours a day now, and there’s, there’s no time to even think about yourself anymore.

So it’s, it’s, it’s not surprising that this is a, but I’m glad that modern day medicine at least is recognizing that there’s something there. And I’m thinking of how much stronger our moms can be now by having the opportunity to be able to address these needs and to not feel bad about saying, I need help.

I need, you know, I’m, I’m not feeling Right right now. Something needs to, to change. To make me a better mom.

Yeah. I think it’s really something we need to spread the word and, and the awareness. Um, cuz most moms still feel guilty to actually take care of just their basic needs even. And, um, Actually, like, take some time to, to take care of the body and, and, um, what’s often just recommended is just like a standard diet for mothers and Okay, jump right back into exercise.

But, um, actually we gotta, we gotta take care of this syndrome. We’re gotta take care of the PO body and, and replenish everything a mom on, on all those levels. And not just nutrition, but it, it’s something that’s yeah, that’s not well known. And, and I’m feeling very passionate about, um, spreading this because it made like all the difference in my life.

And now in the women I’m, I’m working with just, just knowing this.

The other thing I’m thinking of too is how many, just because my kids are older now, you know, you, you meet other moms who are younger and you, you always wanna give them advice or, or just share, um, things that, that you learned on your journey, um, is kind, kind of what, what Water Prairie is all about as far as trying to help, help share our journeys with each other.

But the, um, but how many moms I meet who are young. And are at the stage where their child’s not sleeping through the night yet. And, and whenever you ask, you know, are you finding ways to, to rest whenever your child is sleeping? They always say, you know, no, the house needs to be cleaned. I need to do this.

That’s my time for me to do the things that I want to do. And I understand that, but I don’t know if they recognize that their body needs that rest so that they can’t, you know, it’s such a short time. The things that they wanna do will be there in a few months whenever their child is sleeping through the night, and they can get a good night’s sleep too.

But it as hard as, especially a first time mom, because you know, you still wanna do things, you still want to be able to, to, to talk on the phone with your friend or to, to have somebody over when, when it’s just you. But you’re doing that at the expense of taking care of yourself too during that time.

Yeah. And it’s something so common. And I definitely did that with my first daughter, not anymore with my second. I, I learned something I knew better, but I think there’s the subconscious pressure that we put on ourselves. So that’s maybe also expected from, from society to, to bounce back as soon as possible.

Right. Well, first of all, there is fully no bouncing back. Like everything’s different after birth. Like we are different. We’re like, went through like a major initiation and we’re not meant to be how we were before birth. This subconscious pressure of like, okay, I, I gotta get back on my food feet as much as, uh, like as soon as possible and all of that.

So, um, and, and that’s, we’re being told and that we’re being taught. So, um, I think it’s really important to, to share that with moms because I, I remember, I, I could not even accept that from a friend who actually came over and said, well, I’ll, I’ll be with your baby for an hour. You take a nap and just why?

Sleep? Could just not do it. At the time, I, I, first of all, I was too worried about baby and I just felt so responsible and so guilty for lying down. And I could have, I could have not slept anyways, so the second baby I could. So

yeah, I, I was the same way it was with the first, it was like, I, I wanted that companionship with my friend, so I didn’t want to go sleep because I wanted to visit with her too.

So it, you know, and that’s part of it too, cuz you’ve been in isolation for a little while so you’re ready for, for friendships, but, um, can be, have them come beneficial too. Yeah, it can. It can, but you need both. You do need your rest too. So we talked a little bit about, uh, the mental health side of it.

So, and, and I think there’s, there’s extremes that everyone can understand of how a mother’s mental health can impact the baby’s health. But I don’t think what you’re talking about is, is the extremes of mental health. I think you’re talking about. Just the mother’s basic mental health and how that can affect the, the baby.

Can you explain that a little bit more for me?

So it can be, it can be, um, extreme or can be, can be not extreme really. Um, but, um, babies really sense the mother’s energy and state, and if the mother is not doing well, then the baby definitely gets affected by it, like, more than, than we think.

So even if the mother doesn’t want that, of course. And of course it’s really trying to protect her baby. It, it can still happen. For example, when a mother is just being sad and depressed, even if he’s trying to hide it, the baby will notice that and will definitely influence the baby’s nervous system because the nervous systems are so tied together.

Like, like they were just one, like till baby came out. Like they were one for the longest time. And so they’re still kind of, A little bit like one and, and definitely also when their mother is stressed or, or angry. And that’s also, that’s for both of the parents. It will affect the baby because the vi environment we’re in affects us.

And even, even still, when we’re in the womb, it, it does, it does affect us and children easily take on the parents’ burdens, um, to a degree. And it’s very well known how our emotions affect our physical and mental health. And they can even have a stronger effect on us than, than the kind of diet we we eat.

And same with babies. And I’m aware of that. This is a highly sensitive topic and I don’t wanna scare any parent here. And I just wanted to mention here that, that really none of us had a perfect childhood and some difficulties also good for our evolution. However, there is help and there are things we can do to help the mother and therefore the child and vice versa.

So we really don’t have to settle here, but just, just waiting it out and sucking it up basically. And, uh, we really need to take care of mom and baby. In tandem together. So quite often I see that, oh, like they say, oh, baby has colic, and now maybe we’ll cut out these, whatever, five foods and, and that’s it.

Instead of actually looking at, okay, what’s going on for the mom? Or is she breastfeeding? Or, um, what’s going on energetically? Or vice versa, like, oh, mom having a hard time, um, with anxiety or with sleep, for example. Then we’ll just give her some, some anxiety pills or sleeping pills instead of taking care of, oh, well, if the baby’s crying all night, like, no wonder the mom has like anxiety and can’t sleep.

So we really gotta look at this, this unit together, mama and baby. Um, that’s something I’ve, I’ve learned to really treat, treat both of them together. And it’s, yeah, as, as we just touched upon earlier, it’s so important that a mother really takes time for herself. And I know this can be the most difficult thing for moms.

It has been for me and still some is. However, it’s just so crucial, not just for the mom, but for everyone in the family. Because like the mother is just like one of the most important parts in the family. And that happened to be, um, this person or that person. But it doesn’t mean that person is now, I don’t know better or get something special.

But it’s just like that’s how the family unit work works. The mother needs this kind of a care and that will affect everybody. And if the mother’s doing better, then she can also take care better of, of everybody. Um, but what’s quite common is that moms just wait till they break down, until they really allow to take care of themselves and.

Even just like a couple of minutes of, of hiding in the bathroom to do like a short reset and reconnect with ourselves of like, what’s actually going on? Like what, what am I feeling? Um, can be super helpful because, um, we’re being, we’re being told to just bottle things up and push through.

But we’re never like actually looking at what’s going on or when the kids are sleeping, um, or playing. If the kid, um, doesn’t have naps anymore. You can also like lie down next to your child and actually, um, close your eyes if you know they’re, they’re safe, um, for us as much as possible and, and just like actually rest rather than trying to catch up on the laundry.

Um, and it’s really good for a child also to see when the mother takes care of herself. Like that’s how they, how they learn that. And a mother that actually. Has some boundaries like, like children really need that from us. They don’t want us to destroy ourselves for them. And that’s what we often think.

And they will, they will learn to do the same in life if they see us actually taking care of ourselves. And, um, There are techniques we can do that are more powerful even than naps that only take a few minutes, cuz I know mothers don’t have time. They’re being interrupted all the time. So there are things that mothers can do that are actually many more times recharging.

So taking care of the nervous system to which everything else is tied to in the body is just like so crucial. Um, and an important aspect of what we need to do to help mothers balance the nervous system and give them practical tools so they can do this on their own. So, um, for the sake of baby and Mom, because it’s so tied together, the, the most, two most important things for moms I recommend here is really to take time for themselves and do whatever works best for you to improve your state, whatever you need to do.

And, and that can be even a few minutes here and there, like even a few minutes stretching here and there. For example, even if you don’t make it to the hour and a half yoga class, that it’s something I really had to learn that it’s not all or nothing and we just have to be a more creative, um, Like just to change the energy in the body.

Um, and, and that’ll also help help our children. And then number two is, is to get support. We all need someone to talk to and someone that can help us get back up on our feet when, when things are overbearing. And I know this can be a real challenge for moms to, to ask for help and do something for ourselves.

Spend money for ourselves. And, and I’ve been there and I, and I found, um, really only when I opened up to other moms and I was vulnerable with, um, the challenges I was going through. All of a sudden they opened up to me. And, and, and almost everybody had a very similar story that, and I didn’t even think that of, of that person.

Like, you don’t always see that from the outside, but then when, when you become vulnerable, all of a sudden others are vulnerable too. And you see how many people are dealing with this. And, um, going a little bit off topic here, but, um, wanted to.

No, you’re, you’re fine. This is good. Okay.

I just wanted to say just, um, really wanna remind moms that it was difficult for you to take time or spend money for yourself to get help. It’s, it’s not just about you because your wellbeing, um, is the wellbeing of your baby and the rest of your family. And when you thrive, your family thrives too.

What are some common symptoms that mothers experience with postnatal depletion?

Yeah. So, um, the most obvious one would be severe fatigue. And when you wonder, okay, what does that mean? So if in the last two weeks you would rate your fatigue, um, on a scale from one to 10, 10 being, let’s say zombie, like super, super fatigue, uh, if you would rate your fatigue from a six to 10 over the last two weeks.

Also, if you’re tired, even after a good night’s sleep, that’s definitely a symptom. Um, brain fog, aka baby brain or mom brain. Mm-hmm. And if you’re forgetful, you just can’t think, um, hypervigilance coupled with unease or anxiety if you just can’t relax. And yet some constant alert, um, a sense of guilt or shame around the role of being a mother.

So if you feel like you’re doing everything wrong, you feel guilty for taking some time for yourself. Um, that’s also quite common is loss of self-esteem. So when you felt like you were capable, confident, and ambitious before you had baby, and then everything changed and you’d turn into this anxious, unmotivated, unsocial person that just wants to hide at home.

So that’s what mom’s quite often experienced as well. Um, another symptom would be when they’re feeling overwhelmed and are unable to cope, and they’re like either losing it or tuning out on a regular basis. Uh, also aches and pains in the body that are, um, new that have haven’t been there before. Baby, uh, digestive issues that have worse since, since baby.

Um, and also health conditions, new health conditions that showed up in pregnancy or postpartum. And another symptom would be a loss of libido and also if, if it’s has been a while, if it’s been like one, three or five years since your last childbirth and you’re still feeling like you’ve never recovered.

So, It’s sometimes a little bit hard to pinpoint postnatal depletion cuz it’s a syndrome, not a disease. But I have a postnatal depletion test. Um, and I can share later where, where people can find that some moms can just take that online and, and check.

Excellent, excellent. Um, so before we wrap this up, what are some, um, some advice or some tips that you would give to new mothers who are struggling with exhaustion and postnatal depletion?

Yeah. Um, so one thing is, uh, nutrition. Just to really look at nutrition and not follow any general nutrition advice that’s from the internet. And also to not just kind of go into dieting or looking at calories and just looking at calories. Um, And yeah, we, we do need more calories when we breastfeed, but it’s really, um, about the quality of the nutrients.

So, um, we wanna get nutrient dense foods that are easy to digest, cuz digestion really suffers in, um, pregnancy and, uh, through childbirth like hormones. Also really throw that out of balance and, and also high fat meals, so don’t skim out on, on fats. So pressure cooked meals would be really great for depleted mothers.

Um, and, and to really to not follow any one size fits all approach, but again, to listen to your body of, of what you need. So, for example, if you don’t feel like eating any cold foods from the fridge, that makes a lot of sense because it’s really good to have warming foods that support digestion at that time.

Um, and what happens is that moms just often like follow these fad diets, which are not suited for recovering and depleted mothers, and they’re definitely also not tailored to the individual. So, um, now looking at, looking at exercise, um, what I wanna see here is like similar advice to, um, not follow, like just the standard exercise regime of, okay, the doctor said after six weeks you’re good to go.

That doesn’t mean like, okay, now you can do everything you did before because, um, you, you’re not really good to go because the tissues are still healing and, um, tissues are very, very soft still from the hormones. So, um, Exercise is important, but it’s important to not do anything that’s too much because it can be really harmful if it’s, if it’s too early or too intense.

And so many mothers are struggling with, um, diastasis recti, which is separation of the abdominal wall or pelvic floor issues. So we really gotta, um, even look into specific, um, exercises for that. So again, listen to your body. And also what I wanna say here is for moms to really pay attention to the emotional state because it’s not just postnatal depletion isn’t just on the level of nutrition, but it’s really about, um, Like it’s, it’s on seven levels.

Um, so one of it is really emotional, energetic, so we gotta look at, for example, at birth traumas, possibilities of, of birth trauma, which is quite common. Or traumas often come up for moms, um, their own traumas from childhood or something once they have their own babies. It’s very interesting and you wanna check in how well you handle stress, for example.

And if you don’t handle stress well, it’s not, there’s nothing wrong, wrong with you. It’s actually a symptom again of okay, something we need to take care of. So, um, and I also wanna say like, while supplements can be, can be important, um, we really cannot take care of postnatal depletion just with supplements alone.

Um, and, and I know it’s suggested online, but it’s, it’s really a syndrome that happens on so many different levels and it’s a really important aspect to actually look at. Um, Energetic blocks of healing, for example, nervous system, um, underlying beliefs and so on. So, um, like, well, I can’t explain it maybe within like a quick minute, but what I, what I wanna say here for moms is to just look at, um, what’s going on, like when they feel an emotion to just, uh, develop some awareness of something’s going on here, maybe some, some patterns, and, and to not just like bottle it up, but um, feel it, hold space for it, be kind to yourself and that it’s, it’s nothing bad, but that eventually we just, uh, get to discern that this is not really who we are, but it’s just an influence.

And, um, while it can be extremely uncomfortable to feel, it’s, it’s really not, not bigger than us and it’s, um, it’s part of the work I do with, with my moms. So, um, we’ll, we’ll go deeper into all of that if moms are interested in learning that.

Excellent. And because some of our listeners may not be future moms or moms who have just gone through this experience, they may be a neighbor or a friend or a family member of someone who is at this stage of life.

Do you have any suggestions for them of how they can support that young mom? Or even if it’s when the, in the first few years, as you’re saying, it could be more than just right after childbirth, but, but how they can help support that?

Yeah, definitely. Um, so definitely to keep on reaching out to that mom, because I, mom might just say, no, I’m, if you just ask, how are you?

Like, just let me know when you need something. It’s very unlikely that mom’s gonna say, oh, and I’m, I’m not doing okay. And I’m going and actually gonna pick up the phone and say, Hey, I need some help. Like, it’s very unlikely. So it’s really important to actually keep on. Reaching out or just showing up.

Just maybe bringing some food by, put it, uh, by the doorstep and actually ask the mom what’s the right food? Because I remember in the beginning I was too polite to turn on any food and then I couldn’t eat it because my baby, um, was reacting to certain foods, so I had to give it to my husband. So like people really like, uh, knowing how, how a mom needs to be supported.

So just if, even if a mom feels shy to tell you, just like ask, ask the mom. So food is always a really good idea or coming by and actually not just, um, come for a visit, but actually come pick up, pick up some dishes and they do it in a sensitive way. Some mom doesn’t feel bad about it, like just supernatural or pick up, pick up the baby.

Some mom is com is comfortable with that. So the mom can have a shower or lie down. Um, And like, what I found really helpful is actually to have a, to put a sign on the door for the mom that can be written like midwives notice of like with some, uh, guidelines for, for visitors, especially if it, if mom just has given birth a few weeks ago with some rules of like, whatever, on your way out.

Like, pick up some garbage or like, wash some dishes and wash your hands before you come. Oh yeah. All these things that moms might be shy to say that, but to actually help her, um, protect her cave, hold her space and, and help with some people that might not know how to do it properly. And, and maybe one more tip is, um, like, well, it’s nice to give, uh, baby gifts as, as a gift, like whatever new, new jumpers or toys, but.

Like baby’s okay cuz the mom’s taking care of baby perfectly. But like, help the mom. And what’s a really good idea is actually just collect some money or just start like a fundraiser or something cuz everybody gives a little bit so that the mom can actually get the support she needs for some, for some self care.

Um, I think that’s like a really, really good gift.

Nice, nice. I I like that. Thank you. So we’ve talked about a lot of different things and some of our listeners are gonna be in your area or close enough to be able to work with you. If someone wanted to join one of your groups or to work with you, how would they get in con in contact with you?

Yeah. Um, so my website is Heart-Food.com. That’s Heart-Food.com. So they can, um, read a little bit about everything and join my free Facebook group from there and write me from there. And, um, also they can follow me on social, social media,

Well, good. We’ll, we’ll put those links in the show notes. So whether you’re listening to the audio or on the website or watching the video, look where the notes are and you’ll be able to see those, those links to be able to, to see what she’s doing on her website and to get in touch with you if you need to.

So what else do you have going on? So tell us a little bit more about what you’re doing with the Facebook group and things like that.

Yeah, so I opened, uh, a free Facebook group to support moms that are going through this and like a place where also they can meet and support each other and help each other.

Usually moms at different stages. So it’s really good to get together and to see, okay, we’re not the only one going through this. And there, there is help and other moms made it through. And, um, if moms want more, um, one-on-one support and also more group support, I’m focusing, uh, currently on, uh, what I call postnatal depletion recovery, which is a 12-week transformation for moms, um, from, I call it from Zombie to Goddess.

And at the same time, we’re taking care of baby’s distress. So it’s from moms and babies and really look at, okay, what’s going on at underlying, um, root causes. And we also include the other kids usually in that, and even the husbands quite often. So really the whole family is, is, uh, taking care of you. And it’s really not just about, um, managing symptoms.

It’s not at all about managing symptoms or trying to just, uh, do some co coping strategies, but we’re actually taking care of what’s going with moms and babies. And, um, yeah, as I said, it’s completely tailored to mom and baby and individual pace and needs. So for moms that are looking for that close support, um, This is, this is for them, so they can just check out the Facebook group.

Um, it’s through my webpage. You can get there or it’s on Facebook, um, Facebook group. And I also offer free, um, 60 minute calls from moms, um, call ’em conquer fatigue calls, um, that are totally free. So just to see what’s going on for moms and see if it’s maybe a good fit. Um, look at the baby’s symptoms and moms can apply for that on the website or from within the, the Facebook group.

Great. Great. Well, Christina, thank you so much for sharing with us today. This is a totally new topic for me, even though I experienced a lot of what you’ve described, had no idea what that was, and, um, and I know how much it would’ve helped me. And, um, and I can only imagine how many that are listening, whether they go through it themselves or have someone that they know that they can pass on this information to, to help get them the support that they need.

So thank, thank you for sharing this with us today. So thank

you so much for having me, Tonya. My pleasure. Yeah.

The post Episode #66: Understanding Baby ‘Colic’ and Postnatal Depletion appeared first on Water Prairie.

Show Notes:

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

In this episode of the Water Prairie Chronicles podcast, we dive into the world of feeding difficulties with occupational therapist, Dr. Samantha Goldman, also known as Dr. Sam. Dr. Sam shares her expertise and practical strategies for helping parents navigate the challenges of feeding their children. From overcoming picky eating to addressing sensory issues, Dr. Sam provides valuable insights on nurturing healthy eating habits and creating positive mealtimes. If you’re a parent seeking advice, parenting support, and effective mealtime strategies, this interview is a must-watch. Discover how occupational therapy techniques can empower you and your child to overcome feeding challenges. Join us as we explore the keys to enhancing feeding experiences and nurturing your child’s development. Don’t miss out on this opportunity to learn from Dr. Sam’s wisdom and gain valuable insights into childhood nutrition and mealtime stress.

Subscribe to our channel and sign up for our monthly newsletter for more expert tips and exclusive content on parenting, child development, and creating a harmonious family life. Together, let’s unlock the secrets to successful mealtimes and nourish our children’s well-being.

Please note, all information provided during this interview is for entertainment purposes only and should not replace the advice of your doctor and therapist.

Connect with Dr. Sam:

Resources for parents mentioned during this episode:

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used:

“LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

 Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Samantha Goldman (“Dr. Sam”) is a pediatric occupational & feeding therapist who teaches parents how to help their child with sensory needs & SPD introduce new foods – without the mealtime battles! The parents she supports dream of their child as an adventurous and happy eater. But instead, they feel defeated and exhausted, and confused about how to help their child when nothing seems to work. As a self-proclaimed food & sensory nerd, Samantha loves to empower these parents with the education and resources they need to confidently and consistently introduce new foods to their child – without the tears or fighting.

Full Transcript of Interview:

Tonya: Welcome back to Water Prairie. We appreciate you being with us today. I have a guest with me that I met recently in a podcast group that we’re together in, and this is Dr. Sam Goldman, aka Dr. Sam to some of her patients. And she teaches parents how to help their child with feeding difficulties, explore and try new foods.

And so I’m looking forward to, um, to hearing a little bit more about what she’s doing. But for now, welcome to Water Prairie. Sam.

Sam: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I am very excited to be here.

I’ve, I’ve been waiting for this for a while, so I’ve been looking forward to it. But before we go any deeper, I’d like for you to tell us a little bit more about yourself, cuz I only touched on a little bit of who you are with that.

Yeah, so I’m Sam, the doctor is a doctor of occupational therapy, not a medical doctor. So I am an occupational therapist by my training and I help kids learn how to explore new foods when I work with them one-on-one in therapy. And then in my own personal business, I am obsessed with empowering and teaching parents how they can do the same for their children at home.

Because I really do think that education is key, and I think it’s one of the most missing ingredients when it comes to working on these things with your child at home.

Excellent. Um, this season we’ve been playing a game called Two Truths and a Lie, and I’ve asked Sam to prepare three facts or pseudo-facts about herself to share with us.

And your job as a listener is to see if you can decide which two are true and which one is the lie. And you can either put your notes in the, um, the comments if you’re watching on YouTube, or you can go to Instagram or Twitter and find the post there and put your answer there.

So, Sam, what are your two truths and a lie?

Yes, and I, I mentioned before I wrote these down because I am an awful, awful liar, so I think I could probably keep it, keep them a little more neutral if it’s written down. Okay, so number one, I ran a marathon. Number two, I was held back in kindergarten. And number three, although I am on it for business, I don’t actually love social media.

Ooh. All right. So, those are very different types of answers too. So yes. So your job listeners is to go and guess or to put your comments down.

So, Sam, What led you to specialize in helping children with feeding difficulties? I mean, occupational therapy is a broad range of areas, so how did you get focused on feeding?

It is a broad range. I mean, to say the least, and I actually wouldn’t have said that it’s a chosen one. I kind of got thrown into it when I was working in one of my jobs.

I had just started at a new hospital. I was pretty new out of school still. And the therapist who was at the hospital that was supposed to be training me, teaching me everything a week in, she gave her notice. And so their prime feeding therapist, NICU therapists, hospital therapists had just left. And so there were a couple other girls who were still specialists in feeding, still specialists in the NICU, and they really took me under their wing.

I initially thought I was just going to be doing general kind of OT for the hospital, and all of a sudden I was a feeding specialist and never knew that I would’ve loved it, but I really did love working with the kids on that. And when I was in the hospital, one of the things that really just stood out to me so much was some of these things that could have been prevented.

Some of these kids might not have needed to make it to the hospital. If we were able to provide parents with this education at home. And so that’s kind of how that led into me also doing it in that outpatient setting.

Wow. It’s, it’s actually really interesting. You know, you don’t think about, um, about how the, it starts that early too.

With, uh, the, the younger children. Yes. Um, and thinking back with, with my kids, my, my first had, um, had feeding issues at the very beginning and, um, and I don’t, don’t think about that very often, but, but yeah, it was, it was a little, um, chaotic at first trying to figure out what to do and how to get her to even learn how to, to take in food. So, uh, yeah.

Yeah. You know, a lot of people, when they see us in the NICU, they’re like, What do you mean? A baby doesn’t know how to eat? Don’t they just, aren’t they just born knowing how to eat and, no, actually it’s, it’s a learned thing. Yes, they have reflexes when they’re born that help them, but sometimes those reflexes aren’t developed or sometimes something isn’t going right and then as you grow up, those reflexes go away and you need to have that skill.

So yes, I mean, definitely. I’m sure you’ve, you saw that in the beginning.

Well, we were more with a tongue tie issue. And so trying to, um, to find adaptive, uh, nipples for the bottle to be able to help hit hitting the back of her, of her mouth more. Um, which I never would’ve even known that there was a difference on it.

So, so it took, it took a while to get to the right person though, to help us with that, cuz there was some frustration along the way. And it, it was a good 10, 10, 12 days before we had that resolved. And, um, meanwhile she was not getting nutrition during that time, so it, it was getting, getting a little scary for a while there.

But that’s, yeah, we, we saw how quickly a child can lose weight when they’re just starting out. And she, you know, thankfully she was not a preemie, so she had, she had her initial body weight there to help, but, um, but I could only imagine, you know, with, with the, the NICU babies, you know, how, how, how quickly something could change for them.

Yeah, absolutely. Oh gosh. I’m so sorry you went through that, but so glad you found the answer.

We learned a lot. We learned a lot during that time. The beginning of parenting. It, it just, there, there are lots of questions along the way as most of our parents that are listening know already.

Mm-hmm.

So speaking of feeding difficulties, they can be challenging for parents and for children.

I mean, not necessarily just the NICU, but as kids are getting older too, what are some of the common misconceptions or misunderstandings about this issue that you come across frequent frequently?

Yeah. Well, I will say the absolute biggest misconception, the one I hear from parents, from siblings, from grandparents, the ones I see on social media, is that if they are not eating, that we should withhold food because if they are hungry enough, they will eat.

So we should withhold what we, what they want to eat, the treat, the snacks, those things that make them comfortable until they’re ready to eat what we want them to eat. And that, I think is the biggest misconception and also the most dangerous misconception because the truth is when a child’s not eating, there’s a reason usually behind why they’re not eating.

Whether it’s their oral motor skills, like their tongue ties or something like sensory processing. So the way that their senses look at this, or even a medical concern. There’s a reason in their body they’re not eating, and their body is smart, their brain is smart. We are always, always, always going to protect our body first.

So the majority of the time a child will, they’re, they’re more happy, not more happy, but they are more comfortable with avoiding just eating. And they’re, they’re gonna take that discomfort of not eating as opposed to putting in something inside their body that feels like it’s gonna harm it.

Interesting.

So, um, so yeah. And that, that’s one that I have heard before, or maybe not in those specific words, but the same idea around it before. Um, and so as we go through here, I’m hoping we’re gonna maybe find out how we can dispel some of those, those myths.

Oh yes, of course.

So what, in, in your, in your experience, cuz you’ve, you, you, you work with kids from NICU up till when, I mean that your early on time was with NICU, so now what ages are you working with?

Yeah, so I even work with young adults, so I actually really enjoy, I really thrive in those older kids as well. So anywhere up to 17, 18, I work with. As young as 21 or as old, not as young as old and young as 21.

Okay. So pretty much all, all, all ages are working with you now? Mm-hmm. Okay. And, and with parents, with the younger children too. Um, so what are some of the most common feeding difficulties that you’re encountering?

Yeah, so I would say I do primarily personally work with four kids, aged four plus. But when it comes to the most common ages, I think that kids start to see difficulty is around that like two year mark I think is like where most parents see that. They’re like, wait, they ate everything up until the age of two. And then at two everything hit, you know, the fan. And they just can’t understand why, why something had such a big change.

And part of it is it’s developmental. So at the age of two, kids are learning that they are their own person. Until then, they think they’re part of their parents. So they’re learning. They’re their own unique person. They can say no when they don’t like something. They have preferences now. And so part of it is developmental, and part of it is really those difficulties starting to show in a new way.

We’re adding more difficult foods. So when kids are younger, most of the time we’re giving them. Softer foods, easier foods to chew. Then we’re all of a sudden we want those chicken, we want that meat, we want those hard cruciferous veggies. And so these difficulties start to show a little bit more.

Okay. I, I hadn’t thought about, about the being the time that, that we are bringing in those.

And you’re right, those textures are pretty extreme from, from the mush out of a, out of a soft food jar or even making it yourself. Um, so. So that’s the age group. What are some of the common feeding difficulties that you might see?

Oh, yes. So common feeding difficulties that we see are kids having a hard time with variety, I would say is the most common, is the variety.

So every time I, I speak with a parent, they’re like, they will only eat a handful of foods. I can literally count on my hand how many foods they can eat. So number one is that number of food for parents. Also the types. So a lot of our kids are completely ignoring certain food groups. So most often proteins, fruits, and veggies, carbohydrates are usually usually a winner.

Those are kind of the most biggest ones. But the causes too are also what we need to think about. So those are what parents come to me for when they say they’re having a difficulty with this. It’s like that anxiety around food. It’s the variety of food. It’s the constant mealtime battles. But what’s actually causing those are something different.

So I actually personally specialize in sensory processing. So the majority of the time, the feeding difficulty that I’m seeing is because a child’s sensory system is getting in the way of them feeling confident, exploring a new food.

Right. Okay. Makes, makes sense with that. Um, so you’re an occupational therapist, so what are the key principles or approaches that you’re following when you’re working with parents to help their child with feeding difficulties?

Yeah, I would say the number one, as an occupational therapist, we talk about our occupations, so not our jobs, but the things that make up our day. And for a child, Their main occupation in life is play. And so from my standpoint, when I’m working with a child, or even when I’m teaching parents how to help their child, I am working on how do I make this a playful thing?

How do I make this an enjoyable thing? How do I make it something a child wants to do? Because they are gonna be more motivated. And actually research has even shown kids learn better through play. So, Key one as an occupational and feeding therapist is, how can I incorporate play at the table to help them learn?

Okay. Now, I saw a post that you had recently on Instagram that, um, that it wa it wasn’t play-based, but it, it kind of came across to me like you were showing a transition. Of going from, and those that are listening, you may wanna go check out her Instagram because, cuz she has some, some interesting tips and tricks in there.

But this was like a graphic that you had posted from going from eating a toaster, toaster waffle to fresh blueberries. And I thought that was kind of an interesting transition. And you’ve had some other things like that where, um, it’s not going from just one to the other, but you’re showing some of the, the steps in between.

Mm-hmm. And I thought that it was really interesting, but I never even thought about. About it until I saw your, your graphic with that as far as the transition going through, um, can you give an example of maybe just a, a play idea that, that you’ve used to, to help maybe some, something re re recently that, that you’ve posted or something.

Yeah, so when that graphic you’re talking about, that’s actually called food chaining and that’s another technique as an an OT and feeding therapist that I really, really enjoy. So kids are gonna be more likely to try a food. And to like a food if it’s similar to something they already know. So as opposed to jumping from that waffle and then being like, you like waffles here, now here’s a blueberry.

We’re actually introducing it to them in kind of those little steps. So, Okay. They like this one brand of waffle and no other ones well can we work on now practicing a different brand of waffles, a different flavor of waffles, then a blueberry waffle from there. Can we put a blueberry on the side? So I also think in this process, parents get stuck a little bit when they try that next thing and it doesn’t work.

I almost never expect a child on a first time to like anything I give them. It is that first time. We are always like, our guard is way up. It could take multiple, multiple times. So I’d just like to put that before I even talk about the play idea. So I can even use that as an example. So if I was gonna introduce a new waffle from a different brand or a new flavor, I would maybe try and just put it on their plate and see what they do, but then if they’re not about it, maybe I would take out a food cutter and make a puzzle out of it.

So maybe I would take little food cutters and cut out different pieces and have them see if they could fit the little puzzle pieces in. Maybe I would see if I could cut a face out of my waffle and hold it up to my face. My question is, how can I help this child be more comfortable around this food?

How can I help their anxiety decrease around this food, their nervous system, relax so that this new food doesn’t seem quite as threatening or scary.

So all those times that I was told not to play with my food when I was a child. Hmm. It could have been a good thing. Right.

From an OT perspective. Yes.

Parents don’t love when I tell them that. Right, right.

Maybe not have syrup with that waffle that you’re cutting out with it.

So the other thing too that I really like to tell parents though is just because we’re playing with our food, doesn’t mean it needs to be on the floor. It doesn’t mean that it needs to be this whole big shindig of, you know, throwing and playing and messy and you’re gonna be cleaning for the next five hours.

It could literally be as simple as you handed them a food cutter and they just cut a piece out and they got involved with it. It could literally be as simple as being like, oh, hey, my waffle looks like a basketball when I hold it up. It doesn’t need to be this elaborate process. But how can you start to think about it in a playful way, because that’s the best way for a child to learn.

I’m even thinking whenever you get to the blueberries with the waffle, now you have the grid on the waffle and the blueberries. What patterns could you make, you know, with the, with the berries on it or something?

A hundred percent

nice. So the, um, and I, I really like the idea of the, of the, the mini cutters are making a puzzle out of it. I never would’ve thought of that. So great, great, great tip there. What role do parents play in addressing feeding difficulties?

The biggest. The most influential, the biggest rule. So another key principle that I should have talked about, and another misconception I should have talked about is that as an OT and a feeding therapist, I never personally believe that a child’s eating challenges are parents’ fault.

And I think parents come in with so much guilt about that. And again, like we mentioned, there’s usually something going on in their body that’s making eating hard. However, as the parent, we can influence what we do and how we go from here. And so a lot of the times parents will go to therapy or parents will start, you know, dabbling in some things and they’re like, it’s not working.

But maybe when they go home, they’re not really carrying over their techniques from therapy as much and we’re not practicing it as much. So the parent is actually the most influential person because you are with them the majority of the week. And so I really think the role that a parent has is.

It’s overwhelming, but it can be so influential when we start to make those little changes. Doesn’t have to be big changes, little changes that can really support your child. Magic really can happen.

I would imagine that especially for your younger children that are coming in, the work that you’re doing with the parent is probably the most important part because as you say, they’re with them 24 7, so they’re the ones that are going through, it’s, it’s, it’s like we’ve heard when we’ve talked about speech, it’s almost for the parent more than the child because they need to know how to reinforce all of these strategies. And watching you introduce it with your child is, is definitely important, but then being able to take that skill and continue to see that.

Yeah, absolutely. We’re doing, when a parent comes to see me, I am spending so much time educating that parent also, why, as I mentioned, my key thing now is that I do is educating parents because, What you do in every moment with your child, they are learning every single second.

Every time we respond, every time we do something, they are, they’re little sponges. You see it from the way they repeat our sentences. So even the things that you do, the way you talk about food, the way you are around food, that’s teaching them how to respond an actor on food as well. Right?

Right. Um, Can you share some practical strategies or techniques that parents can use at home to support their child’s feeding development?

Yeah, so my number one thing that I always recommend for a parent is to have a safe food on the plate. So kind of like we talked about before, I am not the biggest fan of that starvation method of. Let’s just take away the food and they will eventually eat what they want, what we want them to eat. A safe food is a food that a child will eat about 80% of the time or more.

So it’s a very, very, very preferred food. And the reason that we put that on the plate is so they do feel safe coming to the table. They do feel like there’s something they can eat. And something really interesting is that it will actually you, you will see them. Feel more comfortable when they see that and be more open to the other things on their plate because they know they have something they can fill their belly up on.

So that’s number one of the things that I recommend. Number two is when you introduce new foods to ditch the pressure. And so I say with new foods, I used to say we don’t do pressure at the table. I still personally do not use a no pressure method at the table. But when I’m doing podcasts like this and stuff and you’re not working one-on-one with a therapist, If you remove everything the way you were doing before, you will probably see their intake drop for a little bit.

So I like to say, now why don’t you just try with a new food? So whatever they’re doing, however they usually eat at the table. But next time you introduce a food that’s totally different, could you introduce it in a way with no pressure? Could you introduce it in that playful way of a game? And then just see what happens.

Don’t pressure them to take a bite. Don’t pressure them to take a lick. A kiss that’s become really big recently is, can you take a bite? Can you take a lick? Can you take a touch? But instead, how can we do this in a non-pressure way that they’ll actually be excited about?

Right, right. What’s I’m thinking too is they’re, if they’re that relaxed when they’re playing without even thinking, they may take a taste of it, or

There are so many times in therapy and even when I talk to parents who are in my membership that they’re like, I can’t believe it. They’re like, I, they just, they took a bite, like we didn’t do anything. They just took a bite. And even last week I was seeing a child and they just, they stuck an orange right in their mouth and we hadn’t even done anything yet.

And you’re just, sometimes you’re like, wow. As soon as they feel comfortable and confident and that food matches, With their system, with their confidence. They just, something clicks sometimes. And so I like to say, when you introduce that new food, can you try it without the pressure this time?

And then I’ll give you one more. Yeah, yeah, please. So my third one is, I like to make sure to introduce a plate that has a protein, a fruit, or veggie and a carbohydrate. So, and I usually like to do that for snacks and for meals. So a lot of the times, dinner becomes this really big point of contention because dinner is the meal that we think needs to have all of our nutrition.

And then for snacks we give like, you know, just the cookie, just the cheerio, just the, this. But kids feel more comfortable at snacks. So what if that new food was introduced at a snack time? Would they feel more confident and comfortable taking a bite? Then if we gave them those other foods around snack time, would we not feel as pressured at dinner that they have to take a bite of these things? So that’s my other one that I really enjoy doing with my parents is adding those three things on the plate.

Well, I like that too, as far as for future health of the child. Now they’ve learned a more balanced approach where they’re not having just a day of carbs between breakfast, snacks and all. And then, like I said, dinnertime, adding all, all the protein in the veggies just in one meal. So they, um, you know, as they hit those teen years and all, they may have a healthier balance of what they’re eating, um, and into adulthood too.

Yeah. And it helps balance their blood sugar for going into class and learning, and they feel. They feel more full. Of course. I know there’s a lot of parents out there immediately thinking, Sam, what do you talking about? My child does not even have those foods yet. I can’t even put a plate together of that. But even if they’re not eating it yet, I like to introduce just like a little size of your nail. So I like when I do a new food. I like it to be a really tiny piece of new food because that’s less overwhelming. And just leave it on the plate and start there.

Yeah. So how, how long, like, so when something starts out like that, so you have a little sliver of carrot or whatever it may be, um, how long would you typically expect it to still be on the plate afterwards, before a child even attempts to try it?

So I would love to have a better answer to that for you, but the research is all over the place with that. And it really depends on the child you’re working with. So a child who’s had a lot of negative experiences with the food they’re going to take a lot longer. A child who’s had a lot of pressure at the table, a lot of fighting at the table, it’s gonna take a lot longer. And so, the research goes anywhere from like, it takes eight times of exposing a child to a food to, it takes 50 times and there’s somewhere in the middle. So I really wish there was a better answer. I would say in general, the field of us say it takes 20 times of a child tasting a food to know if they like it.

Okay, so even, even once they’ve tasted it, so parents that are listening don’t give up if you’re just starting and it’s just been a few days.

Yes. Don’t give up. Actually, again, the research shows that a parent tries three to five times before giving up on a food, and yet we’re saying a child needs to taste it 20 times. So a lot of the time we’re giving up way ahead of the curve. There are some foods that might take a year. There are some foods that a child may never like, but what we wanna do is to get into what I like to call a food explorer lifestyle.

So a lifestyle where we continually expose them to stuff, continually introduce them to stuff just like we do. We go out and we try different things all the time. We learn different things. We put different things on our plate. So instead of hyper focusing on this, one food instead of hyper-focusing on, did they take a bite of peas at dinner tonight?

Focus on how can we create this lifestyle that supports food exploration and their own love of food.

Right, right. So are there any specific milestones or signs that parents should look out for to identify a potential feeding difficulty or problem? Okay.

Yes, absolutely. So I would say number one, and the one that usually gets looked over the most, um, parents go into the pediatrician and they’re constantly saying, my child’s a picky eater.

My child doesn’t eat anything. Meal time is awful. And a lot of the times they’ll ask, oh, okay. But they’re, they’re gaining weight, so it’s okay. But if you are continually fighting with your child at dinner every single night, if it is miserable for you, if it’s miserable for them, I always say it’s worth getting an evaluation.

Along with that. If your child is eating less than 10 foods is a big, big red flag. If they’re eating even 20 to 30 food, that’s kind of like that yellow flag. If they exclude entire food groups and if they’re losing weight,

Okay, and would it be an occupational therapist that they would call at that time or would they go to the pediatrician? Where would they go to get help?

So typically your first stop is gonna be the pediatrician because usually you need a script, especially if you’re gonna go with somebody insurance based, you’re gonna need a script for therapy. Sometimes some states, like in Florida, we don’t need, um, a script, but insurance probably won’t cover it.

So your first stop, I would say, would be your pediatrician. Then from there, there are different types of feeding specialists. So there’s occupational therapist. We are really, really skilled in sensory processing. There’s speech therapists. They are really, really skilled in swallowing and any kind of signs of choking.

That’s another one. Any choking, coughing, things like that, I would immediately go to a feeding evaluation. Then there’s even psychologists, so if you feel like it’s really anxiety based, there’s psychologists. And last you have your dieticians, so they’re gonna be working with you on that calorie. So anybody who really feels like their child’s not getting enough calories, I always recommend they start a dietician. So there’s different ways you can go.

Right, right. Well, and depending on what the, what the situation is, and I would imagine it may take a trial and error with a couple before you find out what the real underlying problem is.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Depending on how much your child can communicate with you.

Yeah. And we’re also gonna wanna rule out before we start feeding therapy is if there is any kind of GI related diagnoses. If there’s any kind of other medical, there’s over 400 medical diagnoses that can be related to eating. And so we wanna first have that first stop at your doctor to rule any of those out.

Right? Right. So, Uh, you know, we’ve talked a little bit about, you know, some of the stress that happens with feeding. Um, and so it’s, I think everyone would agree that, um, feeding difficulties could cause some stress at mealtime and some anxiety probably for both the parents and the kids, especially if they have guests over or if they’re at the grand grandma’s house, that type thing.

Um, so I’m just picturing how, how high that stress might be. Mm-hmm. How do you recommend managing those emotions but still maintaining a positive environment? When you’re feeding your child.

Yeah. Well, number one, again, I wanna remind parents this is not your fault. So exhale, like I think that, I think that just takes a load of stress off.

Another exhale is I wanna remind parents, it’s not your job to make your child eat. It is your job to provide them with the opportunities to do so in a supportive environment. And when you let go of that, I have to be the one to make him take a bite. Oh man, that’s another big exhale. But aside from that, it’s really important as a parent to take care of your own mental health.

So when I, I took a course once and there is a big feeding mentor. So one of my favorite approaches is called the SOS Approach to Feeding. That is a big thing I use as a therapist. And Key Toomey, Ph.D., she founded it, in her description and when she’s talking, she says, every single one of you guys here, should have a therapist.

She’s like, when you start waking up in the middle of the night thinking about these children, she’s like, it is time. And I was like, okay. I wake up all the time thinking about these kids, making sure that they, so I am a big proponent of therapy. I will say personally, after that with her, I was like, okay, I’m gonna go talk to somebody. And of course we don’t share any information about kids, but learning how to manage your emotions and how to separate that from your child’s emotions so that you can be the best version of yourself so that you can help them. And we actually, we talk about this in therapy, is that a child is learning their skills of regulation from your regulation.

So if you are screaming at them about taking a bite, they are gonna learn how to respond, is to scream back at you. Versus if we kind of get down to their, we take our deep breaths and we relax. And once you kind of figure out how to help yourself, you can better help your child how they stay on an airplane.

Put on your mask first. I know this is easier said than done though. So realistically, how to manage this. Sometimes you need to go in another room and take a couple deep breaths. Sometimes you need to get help. Sometimes you need to reach out to somebody for help, so you have support through this.

Sometimes it’s working with your partner and making sure you guys are on the same page so that this is less stressful for you both,

Right. Right. I’ve, I’ve had quite a few of my guests talk about that as far as just the, the need of making sure that you’re taking care of your own self too. And so I appreciate you emphasizing that as well.

I think, think we all need to hear it. It was not something that I thought about focusing on when I was at that stage of being a young parent, but I see the value of it looking back on it, that it, it, it would’ve decreased stress. I think in a lot of ways.

Absolutely and especially any parent of a child who does have unique needs and does have kind of a different path than you were initially thinking.

It’s a, it is a lot of extra work to go to therapies. It is a lot of extra work to advocate for them at school and to do all these wonderful things you’re doing. But we also need to make sure that you are filling your cup as well.

Yeah. Yeah. The um, So if, if a parent hasn’t been helping to address these issues, um, with their child, so they’re getting older, it’s been years.

Now you’re saying some of the patients that you have are in their teens and early twenties even so, Um, are there any long-term implications or consequences if the feeding difficulties are not addressed?

So there’s definitely long-term we see kids, you know, maybe have some issues with nutrition, so of course, you know, maybe their blood tests will come back.

A lot of the times we do see, you know, low iron results and low this, right? So yeah, definitely if we’re not eating certain things, um, I hesitate to go too much into the long-term consequences because they could be really scary. Of course, this situation, this situation. But long-term, if you don’t, if we don’t address it early on, if we don’t start working on it early on and we just keep fighting with our child, we’re not gonna get to that place where we wanna get to.

Right. And um, how can early intervention make a difference with that?

Yeah, so anybody who knows about early intervention, the entire point of early intervention, at least where we are in Florida, is from zero to three years old. The brain is what we call very plastic. So it means that the brain is continually learning, laying down new pathways.

Our brain is always laying down new pathways, but at that age it is expanding rapidly. So kind of like we talked about, every interaction you have with a child, it is laying down that pathway. Now, if we can get to them really early and really in that beginning, we can lay down a lot of positive pathways about food, a lot of positive interactions about food.

A lot of. Memories and associations with food in a great way. If we keep having these mealtime battles and mealtime keeps being not fun. We’re laying down the opposite. We’re laying down pathways of, okay, wait, I gagged on this food. Okay, wait, this food wasn’t enjoyable. I fought with mom. I don’t wanna come to the table anymore.

So the way that early intervention can be so helpful is that before we form. Really, really strong habits over time. We’ve actually gotten in there really early and made some changes so that we have maximized their development at a younger age.

Right. Okay, good. And um, what are some additional resources and support networks that you recommend for parents that are dealing with feeding difficulties with the children?

Yeah, so I actually, I thought a long time about this question and. I have a lot of sensory ones, but I would, for any parent out there, I would go to Feeding Matters. Feeding Matters has a wonderful website with a lot of education for parents, especially when it comes to kind of that question of is it pediatric feeding disorder?

Is it our fit? Highly recommend you guys watch that. Uh, webinar Key Toomey, the founder of SSS, she has a two-hour parent, free webinar on her site. That is incredible. So that’s somewhere I would start. And then if your child has any kind of sensory processing challenges, I really love the Out of Sync Child, which is a book.

And I really love Sensational Child, which is a book.

Okay. So we can, we can put those links in the show notes so that those who wanna look more into that, um, so you can find them easier. And, um, so I appreciate you sharing that with us. But while we’re talking about links, what, um, for anyone who’s listened to this and wants to get in, in touch with you, what’s their best way of contacting you?

I know you have a website. Give us all of your connections out there.

Yes. Yes. So I have a website. The website is not the same name as my business anymore. It is theot4me.com. And over on there you will find My Food Explorers membership. So as I mentioned, I think education is key.

I think it’s a way to empower you and make you feel confident and more connected and ready to. Kind of take on this challenge, but I do also share a ton, as you mentioned, on my Instagram, which is @DrSamGoldman. And then I do have a podcast that just launched recently, and that is the Food Explorers Podcast.

And we entirely dedicate that podcast to teaching you how to help your child become a confident and happy eater.

And I will say from what I’ve listened to of the podcast, um, Sam is really easy to listen to. It’s, it’s always upbeat and I, I wish I had had that resource when my kids were younger. So if you, especially if you have a younger child, listen into her podcast. She has some great information coming through there.

Oh, thank you.

Oh, you’re welcome. The, um, so you’ve mentioned the food explorers. I want you to tell me some of the things that you’re involved with, some, any projects you have going on or any programs that, that our parents might be interested in.

Yes, yes. So actually in June we are launching Camp Food Explorers, which is going to be a fun three day challenge where we are having, each family’s gonna be their own little team, and there will be prizes, and it’s all about exploring a couple new foods, having some fun at the table, starting to make some really happy, fun changes in those three days.

In your own little camp. Okay. And then in the Food Explorers membership, we actually decided to add some sensory master classes. So what we do in the Food Explorers membership is we explore a new food together every single month. So by the end of the year, you should have added 12 new foods to your repertoire, but I really, really wanted to hone in on that sensory part.

And so going forward in the next couple months, we’re adding some sensory masterclasses on different topics on how it affects the table, but also how sensory processing affects kids throughout the day, at school, at home, et cetera.

Wow. Wow. So, um, so these are great. And so if they go onto your website, can they find access to each of these

so they can find access to the Food Explorers Membership and Camp Food Explorers should be up at the beginning of June.

Okay. Okay. So actually by the time you’re hearing this, it will be up. So we’ll have the link Yes, the, the link on that. Well, Sam, I really appreciate you spending the time to go over all these questions with me today. Um, like I said, I, I wish I had had your resource when my kids were younger, but, um, but as I meet other people, I’ll be able to pass this on to them, and I hope a lot of our parents that are listening will start applying some of the ideas that you’ve given them.

And if they, if they do have some concerns, now they know where to go to. To start looking for some help. Um, and if anyone that’s listening, if you take part in the Food Explorers or the Camp Food Explorers, um, send us a note and let us know how it’s going. Cuz I’d like, like to, to, to hear some feedback on that too. But Sam, thank you. I, I appreciate you taking the time today.

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

The post Episode #65: Feeding Success Starts Here: Techniques for Tackling Feeding Challenges appeared first on Water Prairie.

Show Notes:

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

Looking for a unique and exciting way to explore the natural beauty of National Parks with your family this summer? Look no further than Park Pioneers, the new FREE program from Expeditions in Education. In this interview, we sit down with Dacia Jones, co-founder of Expeditions in Education, to learn more about the Park Pioneers program and how it can help families connect with nature and each other like never before. Whether you’re an experienced outdoor enthusiast or just looking for a fun and educational way to spend time with your loved ones, you won’t want to miss this conversation with Dacia. Join us for a fun look at how you and your family can participate in what the National Parks have to offer even if you aren’t able to go there in person!

Connect with Dacia and Expeditions in Education:

National Parks Junior Ranger Program Books: https://spgfan.com/nps/junior-ranger-program-directory/

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used:

“LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

 Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Dacia, also known as Dr. Drizzle, is an internationally recognized educator who travels the country inspiring teachers and administrators alike to integrate STEM into everyday instruction. Dacia has been empowering educators to engage students through STEM for more than 20 years. She is known worldwide for her innovative approach to learning and is passionate about building relationships, building the culture of STEM, and building capacity. Dacia and her husband, Steve, work together to bring as many high-quality STEM opportunities to students, teachers, and schools for free. Their nonprofit, Expeditions In Education, allows them to travel the country and bring relevant, real-world, virtual, and face-to-face opportunities to students in the United States and around the world.

Interview Summary:

In this interview, Dacia Jones introduces us to Expeditions in Education, a nonprofit organization dedicated to enriching education by integrating national parks into the learning process. With a focus on promoting environmental awareness and fostering a deep connection to nature, Expeditions in Education offers a range of programs designed to inspire and empower both students and educators.

One of their initiatives is the Park Pioneers program, which takes students on virtual field trips to national parks, bringing the wonders of these natural landscapes directly into their home. Dacia explains how these interactive learning experiences create a sense of awe and curiosity, igniting students’ imaginations and nurturing a lifelong love for the outdoors.

STEAM in the Park is another highlight of Expeditions in Education’s offerings. This innovative summer learning adventure program provides educators with professional development experiences in national parks, emphasizing the integration of Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts, and Mathematics (STEAM) education. By immersing teachers in the natural environment, STEAM in the Park encourages them to develop creative and engaging lesson plans that harness the power of experiential learning.

Throughout the interview, Dacia shares personal anecdotes and insights, demonstrating her deep-rooted passion for education and her unwavering commitment to creating meaningful learning opportunities. She unveils the fascinating characters of Marvin and Huck, who take young readers on captivating adventures in national parks through a series of books. Dacia’s books not only entertain but also provide valuable lessons about kindness and the importance of preserving our natural heritage.

Moreover, Dacia highlights the hidden fireflies scattered throughout the books, using them as symbols of light and hope. Children are encouraged to spot these fireflies, fostering a sense of wonder and reinforcing the power of even the smallest acts of kindness.

Listeners interested in supporting Expeditions in Education and their noble cause can contribute through donations, volunteering, or purchasing the captivating books authored by Dacia Jones. By doing so, they actively contribute to the organization’s mission of transforming education and nurturing a love for the environment in future generations.

Connect with Expeditions in Education through their website, expeditionsineducation.org, to explore their work, learn about upcoming programs, and find ways to get involved. Follow them on Facebook and Twitter to stay updated on their latest initiatives and join a vibrant community of like-minded individuals dedicated to inspiring education through national parks.

Prepare to be inspired as Dacia Jones shares her journey, the impact of national parks on education, and the incredible opportunities that lie ahead for students and educators alike. Immerse yourself in this engaging interview and discover how Expeditions in Education is revolutionizing learning through the awe-inspiring beauty of our national parks.

The post Episode #64: Park Pioneers and the Magic of National Parks appeared first on Water Prairie.

Show Notes:

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

Maddie Rogers, the General Manager of Howdy Homemade Ice Cream in Cary, North Carolina, recently sat down with Tonya Wollum on the Water Prairie Chronicles podcast to discuss her experiences in the ice cream industry and what makes her shop unique. One of the things that sets Howdy Homemade Ice Cream apart from other shops is their commitment to employing individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities (IDD).

Maddie explained that this commitment came about after she completed an internship at Gigi’s Playhouse, a nonprofit organization that provides educational and therapeutic programs for individuals with Down syndrome, autism, and other developmental disabilities. During her time at Gigi’s, Maddie saw firsthand the potential of individuals with IDD and how they could thrive in a work environment with the right support and training.

Maddie emphasized that the key to successfully employing individuals with IDD is to provide them with the right training and support. She explained that people with IDD often learn best through repetition and clear, simple instructions. To accommodate this, Howdy Homemade Ice Cream uses a lecture-based training approach broken up into simple steps, such as a 1, 2, 3 breakdown.

In addition to providing training, Howdy Homemade Ice Cream also provides ongoing support to its employees with IDD. This includes regular check-ins with managers, opportunities for additional training and development, and a supportive work environment where employees are encouraged to ask questions and seek help when needed.

Maddie believes that employing individuals with IDD is not only the right thing to do, but it also makes good business sense. She explained that individuals with IDD are often highly motivated and dedicated employees who take pride in their work. They also bring a unique perspective and set of skills to the workplace, which can be valuable in a customer-facing industry like ice cream.

One of the things that sets Howdy Homemade Ice Cream apart from other shops is their commitment to making all of their ice cream in-house. This allows them to offer unique flavors that can’t be found anywhere else. If you’re in the area, be sure to visit Howdy Homemade Ice Cream in Cary, NC, and tell them you heard about them on the Water Prairie Chronicles podcast!

Connect with Howdy Homemade Ice Cream:

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used:

“LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

 Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Maddie Rogers is the general manager of Howdy Homemade Ice Cream where they offer amazing ice cream served by amazing people. Maddie helped open the shop in February 2023 to bring more inclusive jobs to people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. Maddie’s dream is to lower the unemployment rate for those living with IDD and provide a fun and safe place for them to not only scoop ice cream, but to learn valuable life skills. She finished her degree in Human Development and Family Sciences at UNC-Chapel Hill in December of 2022 upon completion of her internship with GiGi’s Playhouse. It was there that her passion for those with disabilities grew deeper roots and led her to her current position at Howdy.

Ep 63 Interview with Maddie

Tonya: Today we’re talking to the general manager of an ice cream shop who is changing the game when it comes to employment for individuals with disabilities. This shop is not only serving up delicious treats, but also creating meaningful job opportunities and transforming lives. Get ready to hear about the heartwarming stories and impactful mission behind Howdy, homemade ice cream in Carey, North Carolina.

Be sure to stick around to the end of this episode to meet a few of Howdy’s employees too. Welcome to the Water Prairie Chronicles, a podcast created to encourage and support parents of special needs children. I’m Tonya Wollum, and I’m glad you’re here. So today our guest is Maddie Rogers. She’s the general manager of Howdy homemade ice cream in Carrie, North Carolina.

And I had the pleasure of meeting some of her staff after my interview with Michelle and Matthew Schwab at Gigi’s Playhouse Raleigh a few weeks ago. And if you missed that one, I’ll link that one here so you can watch that video or listen to it. I knew that I needed to have Maddie come on and share firsthand what she’s doing with her ice cream shop after taking the visit there.

And so today, Maddie’s agreed to join me. And Maddie, welcome to Water Prairie.

Maddie: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Tonya: So, I didn’t tell much about you. Do you wanna share a little bit about who you are before we go into our, um, our icebreaker?

Maddie: Yeah, sure. So, I, um, actually am not a native from this area, but I moved down here for college, uh, in 2019.

I went to Chapel Hill, um, and just graduated in December with a degree in human development and family Sciences. Congratulations. Um, thank you. And I actually did my college internship at G’S Playhouse, um, at their old location back in Raleigh. Yep. So, I know Matthew and Michelle very well. Yep. Who you just mentioned actually.

And, um, I, that’s how I ended up in this position. Um, another one of my employees, her mom, um, she ended up having connections to both Gigi’s and Howdy and, um, recommended me for the position. And now I’m the general manager of Howdy homemade ice cream right next door to the new Gigi’s location. Wow.

Tonya: Wow. So, you’re, you’re starting off pretty, pretty young here to have just graduated and r be a general manager.

Maddie: Yep, absolutely.

Tonya: So, I, I’ve told you before, but we may have some new listeners, each of our guests this season were playing the game of Two Truths and a lie. So, it’s just a little icebreaker to help you get to know our guests a little bit different from what we’re talking about on the topic. And so, each guest is sharing three facts about themselves.

Two of them are true, one of them is a lie, and your job listeners is to go to social media, to Instagram or Twitter. And to respond to the post there and leave your guesses of which you think is the lie and which are the, which you think are the truths. A week after this airs, we will post the answer. So, you can go back and check your answers and see if you’re right or not.

So, Maddy, do you have your facts ready for us?

Maddie: I do. And they are strange. I will tell you that. Um, so my three facts, for them to figure out if, if it’s a truth or a lie, is number one is I took fencing lessons as a kid. Number two is that I love pickles. And the third one is that I have run a 5k.

Tonya: That’s gonna be hard. We’re gonna have to see, so, so listeners listen through the full interview. Maybe she’ll give you some hints. Somewhere along the way, we’ll see. We’ll see if it comes up or not. Who knows? Have a feeling that the pickles may not come up in the conversation, but we’ll see.

Maddie: It might, you never know. I might throw that in there somewhere. Who knows?

Tonya: Right, right. So, Maddie, what inspired you to help start an ice cream shop that hires individuals with Down Syndrome and other intellectual disabilities?

Maddie: Um, I honestly think I have to go back to seventh grade, Maddie. Um, when I was in seventh grade, my little cousin, his name’s Joel, was born with Down Syndrome.

Um, and so that was kind of my first like firsthand experience with someone with a, with, uh, with IDD and um, I remember just kind of falling in love with him and loving him as a person and watching him grow up, um, and just being a part of his life and seeing how he just completely saw the world in a different way.

Um, I think that’s probably where it initially started. And then, like I said, I did my internship with Gigi’s Playhouse and, well, they were in Raleigh and down Carey. But um, I think, you know, the first day I walked in there, I kind of knew like. This is what I wanna do with my life, and these are the people that I want to, that I want to pour my time, um, into helping and making sure that they have the opportunities that they deserve in life because they have so many things that they don’t get, that they do deserve.

Um, so I think, you know, just honestly being immersed in their lifestyle is what inspired me to just come on board and help start Howdy.

Tonya: Excellent, excellent. Now, Howdy is a chain, is that correct?

Maddie: Yeah. So, it started in, um, in Dallas, Texas. Yeah. The original one was in Dallas. Yeah. And then they branched out a couple of other locations in, in, uh, in Texas.

And now there’s two in North Carolina and there’s um, a couple, you know, out west as well.

Tonya: Do all of them employ individuals with disabilities?

Maddie: Yes. We all share the same mission.

Tonya: Nice. So, um, how have you seen your employees grow and develop as a result of their work at the ice cream shop?

Maddie: That’s a really, really good question.

Um, I actually get this question quite often from just everyday customers. Um, and I think the reason why is because people want to know, like, there’s a why to why we do this, but does it work? Um, yeah, so I think the answer that I would give you is I have seen them specifically work with, um, vocally asking for help.

So that’s something that I’ve really kind of driven home for them is when I’m, when I’m training them, when I’m here and when I’m training my shift managers who are neurotypical to help them, um, I always say, listen, it’s okay for you to ask for help, and I want to hear you use your words. Because even though, you know, not everybody communicates with words, a lot of people can hear those words.

Um, and so it’s really good for them to learn to vocalize that need for any sort of help, you know? Um, so I think that is one of the biggest areas I see in them grow and develop, um, is just learning that it’s okay for them to look at someone and say, Hey, listen, I need help. Um, and I need help with this specific thing.

So, um, I think that that’s probably one of the biggest ways I’ve seen them grow and develop as a role result of, of working in, um, especially in a food service business where a lot of them have not had experience and they, you know, figure out how to wash a dish properly or something like that. But they may need help the first time they do it.

So, they’re learning that it’s okay to not know how to do something all the time. Right, right.

Tonya: The, um, your employees, are they, are they teenagers? Are they adults? What age do you employ?

Maddie: So, we employ starting at age 16, um, and up, so anyone from, you know, I have an employee who’s. 16, 17 years old and I have an EMPLO employee who’s 40 with a disability.

Okay. So, we have all kinds of age ranges here, which actually is something that I really love is because we’re not taking just from one age pool, we’re pulling from just the disability community as a whole. Right.

Tonya: I was thinking about that. Whether they were all brand-new first-time employees or they may have been coming in with some other training when they couldn’t get to you either way.

Maddie: Yeah, sometimes they are first-time employees. I have a lot of first-time employees actually. Um, because cuz of the unemployment rate for people with IDD, uh, which is super high. But yeah, a lot of them have never had a job. Um, and then some of them, of course, have had small jobs or done volunteer work that, that requires them to act like a real, like, like it’s a real job.

Tonya: Right, right. Um, you mentioned a little bit of just a skill that’s been learned, but can you share some success stories or experiences that demonstrate the positive impact that it’s had on the employees?

Maddie: Yeah, for sure. I think, uh, one story comes to mind, um, for an employee of the month, or we call them Heroes of the month here at Howdy.

Um, and her name is Grace. Uh, she, one day I was in the back with the shift manager who was on duty, who was one of my neurotypical employees. And we were having a conversation. I don’t, for the life of me, don’t remember what we were talking about now, but it must have been something important. Um, and so the next thing we know, we go back out to check on Grace and make sure that no, like customers have come in and, and she didn’t need extra support.

And there were four people sitting at a table all with ice cream and they were not there the last time we were out there. And so we came out and we were like, Grace, did you scoop all this ice cream, take all the orders and like put it through our point of sale system and, and take their money and everything?

She was like, oh yeah, I took care of it. It’s fine. And we were like, what? That’s incredible. So, she’d never done that before. So, Grace earned a spot as Hero of the Month from that story for sure. Right. Um, I think it was, it was nuts cuz the, um, the Shift manager and I were both so like, what this, we didn’t know she could do the whole thing by herself.

So, we were just amazed. And so, and not even, I mean, not surprised, but definitely amazed that Grace just kind of showed up and was like, and she was so nonchalant about it, which made it so funny. She was just like, yeah, I did that, which was great. Um, so I think that’s one of my favorite success stories for sure, um, with one of my employees for sure.

Tonya: How do you ensure that your employees. Receive the necessary support and training to succeed in their roles.

Maddie: That’s a huge question. Um, goodness gracious. That’s, that’s a tough one. I think I could probably talk an entire episode about that. Honestly, the first thing that comes to my mind is communication with parents, um, which might not be the most, um, Predictable thing that you would think that I would say.

Uh, but I think something for me, um, personally with the parents of my employees is having an open line of communication with their parents. Cuz most of my employees, their parents are their caregivers, um, and their spokespeople for their lives. Um, so when we have an approach like we do at Howdy, which is basically like an individualistic approach, um, meaning that I take my employees’ abilities on a case-by-case basis, right?

And I, if need be, sit down with those parents and I say, hey, listen, X employee is really struggling in this area and I, I want to know how I can better support them. Like you’re the person who knows them the best. How can I implement maybe some of the things you’ve learned at home? At work so that I can give them the most successful experience.

Um, but also that they know that this is, you know, an ice cream shop, a functioning ice cream shop. So, we have to be able to do our jobs well so that we can serve people well. Um, right. So, to ensure those, I guess, necessary support and training pieces, the parents are a huge, huge part of that. Um, just communication with.

Parents and caregivers, um, or, or guardians or, you know, whoever is in charge of, of them, right? As a person, whoever helps them with their lives, I want to be in contact with that person because they’re the ones who are gonna help me get to know their child or their, you know, the person in, in their care.

Um, so really talking to them, setting up meetings. I’ve had, I can’t tell you how many meetings I’ve had in my office or outside on a nice day with, with a parent who I’ve just sat down with them and said, okay, listen. This is what’s going on. It’s not a bad thing. I just need to know how you approach these things so that I can do the same thing and be consistent at work with whoever I’m speaking about.

Right. Um, the other thing that I have found is that training never stops. Um, you know, you say you hear that all the time. It’s like you’re always learning, you’re gonna always be learning. Um, and that’s completely true, but I’m always teaching, so it’s just kind of, the role has slipped. Um, but I feel like I’m always, I’m still always training.

So, this consistent, overseeing observance that I have, um, is part, as part of my job is I use that to say, okay, maybe we can tweak this procedure just a little bit to make it more conducive to a, a better a work environment. Um, for, for my heroes. The other thing that I do is constantly listening to what they’re saying to me, um, to ensure that they’re getting that support and training that they need.

There may be an area, like I said, that they need more help in, and they ask me for that extra help, right? They need a, I, I’ve never had this happen, but if someone needed a pair of headphones at work, like that’s something they could come to me and ask and, and that would be an accommodation that we would make, right?

So that’s one thing that I absolutely love about Howdy is because. We take it on an individualistic case-by-case basis. There’s nothing that you can’t, that my employees can’t come to me about that and say that, you know, I’m gonna say no to them. Right, right. If that’s something that makes them more comfortable, if that’s an extra piece of training that they need, or if that’s just a concern or they have a better idea of a way to do things in the shop, I’m always completely open to that communication coming in and also going out.

Um, that input is super important because they’re the lives that I’m impacting. I need to listen to what they have to say about themselves. Right. So, I think that was a whole roundabout way of saying that, but yes, listening, communication are probably the two main things there.

Tonya: Well, it sounds, sounds like you’re creating a safe space for them so that they can grow in their advocacy skills as well.

Maddie: Yeah, absolutely. And they learn to advocate for each other, which is another thing that, oh yeah, we really love because they’re working on a daily basis with people who are part of the IDD community but may not have the same exact disability that they do. So, they’re learning how to advocate and help their coworkers at the same time.

Tonya: When it’s a skill, whether they stay with you for the long term or they move on to another job, they’re learning skills that are gonna go with them throughout their life. So, absolutely.

Maddie: And that’s, you’re making a difference. Yeah. And that’s something we’re all about here at Howdy is. Not just teaching them how to scoop ice cream, but, but, you know, teaching them how to clean a toilet and teaching them how to wipe a counter and mop a floor, and how to, having adult conversation with a customer.

Um, all of those are, are life skills that they’re gonna take with them into their either next job or into their life as a whole. Um, that’s all something that, that they’re gonna find, you know, important as they go out into the community and continue to do just human things.

Tonya: Yeah. I think it’s a great platform too, and again, just as you were describing what you’re doing, it just sounds like it’s such a safe place for them to be, to be able to kind of stretch their wings and, and make mistakes and learn from them and not Yeah.

Not feel like they’re gonna be criticized all the way through it. The fact that absolutely, you’re reaching out to parents and bringing them in that speaks a lot because, most employers are not gonna do that. So, yeah.

Maddie: See, I think that that’s something that’s completely uncommon, but I’m at an advantage knowing, you know, coming from being an intern and then like you said, going straight to being a general manager.

I know that like communication between, you know, people who are in charge of the life and people who are in charge of the work need to be, you know, in communication for, for, to be a good boss. And so that’s something that I’ve, you know, taken to heart is what would I want in the situation that I was in, you know, six months ago as an intern.

And what was something that I really appreciated about my supervisors when I was an intern. Um, and then applying that to the position that I’m in now.

Tonya: So, for other business owners who are interested in creating job opportunities, like what you’re doing, what advice would you give them?

Maddie: Train well train well, um, and, and hire well, um, the hiring process and the training process are both two things that I really didn’t know anything about.

Um, that, so our owner, Phillip Lynn, um, really has taught me a lot of, of what I know about HR stuff now. Um, but that’s definitely where I would start is hiring well and training well. Um, and what I mean by that is, conducting interviews that are actual interviews, like ask hard questions. Um, they, they can handle so much more than you think that they can.

And you wanna push that limit. You wanna test that limit. You wanna see, you know, how hard those questions are, and, and you wanna know how they’re gonna respond to those questions, um, just like you would with any other neurotypical employee. Um, so that’s definitely something that I did that I’m glad that Philip helped me with, um, was learning how to interview well.

Um, and then the other thing that I’ll spend more time talking about is training, um, and training employees for one. It’s difficult, it’s not an easy thing to do. And I learned that very quickly because I was barely trained myself. And then I was like, okay, now I gotta teach a bunch of people how to do a job that I’m still learning how to do.

Um, right. But the way that I did training was kind of different from, you know what, you know, what normally people would tell me to do. Um, I actually did a lecture-based training broken up into two different parts. Um, and it worked really well. And the reason why I think it worked well was because I kind of drew on my experience at Gigi’s and, and learning, you know, from my internship there and then learning from my classes at UNC.

Um, that people with, with IDD love, like a 1, 2, 3 breakdown, um, where things are simple and said, okay, here’s step one, here’s step two and here’s step three. It doesn’t always have to be a 1, 2, 3. I mean, it can be a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or however many bullet points or numbers that you need. But that’s the way I broke down training.

Um, so that’s the way, that’s the way I would tell business owners who want to employ people with IDD or any sort of disability too. Clearly outline, hey, this is the one, two threes of our business, and this is the one, two threes of your expectations. These are the things that you’re expected to know and learn, and this is the way you’re expected to act right at work.

Um, and that really went, it went really well. So, like on opening day when we finally got to the shop, um, and my, my heroes finally got in there for the first time, and they were really working their first shift. And it was crazy that day I was not behind the counter. I was standing there watching them do all of the things that I had verbally taught them, and I was like, whoa, that I can’t believe that it worked that well.

Right. And so, I think I figured out later on, learned later on, now that I’ve been in this job for, what, three, four months now or three months, I guess that the one two threes and structuring training that way for people with disabilities. Really speaks to their brains. You know, you’re gonna have someone that you know is not the same, and that’s just part of being a human in general.

But I really think that’s the piece of advice that I would really drive home is, Use that 1, 2, 3 method of training. If that’s in person, you show the 1, 2, 3 step. Or if that’s in lecture, give them a set of notes or let them ask questions and stop you when you’re talking to them. But that 1, 2, 3 method of teaching, um, of teaching about your business and then teaching about those expectations.

That’s the most important thing that I would say that I would give business owners who want to create jobs for people with IDD. Um, at Howdy, we do have. You know, step-by-step instructions. Um, and they have like clock in numbers when we, when they get in and they, they punch their codes in to clock in and those are all like printed out on a sheet next to them.

We have little order forms. It basically has all of our flavors and toppings organized by a numeric and, um, by an alphabet system. So, each topping is. Correlated to a letter, a capital letter, and each flavor is correlated to a number. So, okay. That way my friends don’t even, like, they don’t even have to be able to fully understand English or be able to fully read, right?

So, they know how to circle those, and they just pass down the line. And that’s still that 1, 2, 3 step, but just in a different, a different way, right? It’s still that visual 1, 2, 3 step, and then when they make milkshakes, right? So, I’ve laminated those instructions. To a t, like to how long, which button to push, you know, all of that kind of stuff, right?

As detailed as possible. And that’s posted right behind the mixer, right behind the blender, um, where our, where we make our milkshakes. So, things like that. And then reminders to wash your hands and reminders of our rules are always there. You know, things like that so that when you are still training, like we were just talking about, active training, you can say, oh, look at your rules.

Those are what we’re gonna talk about today. You know?

Tonya: What are some of the challenges that you faced while running the shop and how have you overcome them?

Maddie: I think that one of the biggest challenges is communication with parents. Um, just to be a hundred percent transparent. I think that, you know, sometimes when you get to the point where you’re not communicating directly with your employees, sometimes, um, you know, things get lost and, and crossed.

Um, I think that is a huge challenge for me. But I think another one that I haven’t mentioned yet is scheduling. Oh, my goodness. Scheduling is wild. Um, especially when you are dealing with sometimes parents handling those situations, um, and those scheduling things. People asking for time off. Um, you know, it just can be a whirlwind when it’s neurotypical people.

But when you add a disability, sometimes the understanding level is a little bit different. So it’s harder to say like, I need you to work an extra hour. Instead of saying that, I’ll have to be like, okay, I’m changing your shift to these hours. Right? And I had to learn all of that scheduling stuff. Um, so scheduling can be a really big challenge.

Um, I think the other challenge is that people from the general public sometimes still expect less of my employees. Um, and I see that and that hurts me. Um, and as the mama bear of the group, I kind of wanna just like, ah, but I can’t. Um, so I have to remember to be nice sometimes, um, because some people, you know, they, they don’t do it out of malice, but they will like, Say if I’m behind the counter, which it happens a lot when I’m behind the counter, I, I get looked at for taking orders and for fixing mistakes and for all of anything, any communication.

It goes to me if I’m behind the counter. And that’s, it’s, it hurts me to know that some people don’t quite understand the world of people with disabilities. Um, the way that I do and the way that. That my employees do. Um, so it’s challenging sometimes to interact with the general public in a, in a situation where I’m so used to working with people with disabilities that I push them, and I know how far I can push them.

And I know that they can do so much more than everyone believes that they can. But out of ignorance, not out of malice. Sometimes, you know, you have a. Someone off the street who may not have interacted with a person with a disability as much as I have, um, who just, just kind of just looks over them. Um, and that’s a huge challenge for me.

One, reigning myself in when that happens. And two is the challenge is, is getting them on board with saying like, hey, this, you know, they can take your order. And then once they see that, it’s awesome because they see the fact that, oh, Ryan or Rebecca or Grace or Alan or any of my employees, oh, they really can do it.

I just didn’t expect that. Right. Um, so that, I guess the, the challenge I said, I would say is overcoming those expectations, um, and showing people that. Those expectations should not change for someone with a disability. The expectations should say the same, but accommodations should be made, um, for those, for those people who need those accommodations.

But yeah, definitely a challenge too, to sometimes work with the general public who. Sometimes just don’t really, just don’t understand the world of someone with IDD. Um, and I think that that’s my job and Howdy’s job and me and Phillip’s job to show people. And I think that’s something, you know, Phillip and I have talked to a lot about is we’re not here just to pl provide employees jobs.

We’re here to show the community that these people are valuable and that they always will be valuable and that will never change. And those expectations of them. Are going to be high at Howdy, and we want people to come in knowing that I have an employee who is trained to talk to them, right? So, don’t talk to me, talk to my employee, talk to the person who is actually there running the show, you know?

Tonya: Yeah, we had, um, last month we had an episode on with, um, the Sanchez family. And part of what we talked about were, cuz the topic was, parenting a child with Down syndrome. Um, part of that interview we discussed some of the common myths surrounding Down syndrome and how do you counteract that?

And so, you’re facing some of that with that? Absolutely. It’s the, absolutely, it’s the misconceptions that are out there. And so, um, so you’re educating your employees, but you’re also educating your customers. And in a practical way. Yeah.

Maddie: Because, and sometimes even parents. Yeah, sometimes even parents.

Tonya: I could see that. But having them, the parents have cared for this child. They’ve maybe bought into the idea that they can’t do more than they’re doing, but this, this may be their first time pushing them out and letting them try something. Oh, absolutely. On their own.

Maddie: So, Mom and Dad, yeah. With parents, it’s not the, you know, they just don’t know.

It’s the fear sometimes with parents, right? And you don’t, I think that’s another part of my job that I really, that I really love is saying, Hey, here’s a progress report for your kiddo. This is what they’ve been doing at work. This is what they’ve been experiencing. This is how they’ve been handling it.

And they’ll, I’ve had so many parents be like, what?

Maddie: Like they did that, like seriously? And I’m like, yeah, yeah, they totally, I thought you taught them how to do that. They were like, no. How did they?

Tonya: So now they can do it at home.

Maddie: There you go. Now they can sweep the kitchen.

Tonya: They can clean the toilet.

Maddie: They know how to clean their bathroom. You’re welcome.

Tonya: In general, how has the community responded to the business and its mission?

Maddie: Yeah, I, I love this question. Um, I get, this is another one of the ones that I get a lot in the shot. Um, and I love to answer it with a story because there’s no better way that I can tell you. And describe to you how the community has responded to having Howdy as part of downtown Carey than this story.

So, I’ll just, I’ll just go ahead and tell you the story. So, on opening day, uh, February 11th of this year, 2023 was, that was our opening day. So, we get there. Next thing I know, I look out the window and there’s people in chairs outside my door and I was like, oh, alright, so maybe we bit off more than we can chew.

Little fear starts setting in right there, you know, but I was also excited. So, we opened the doors and I looked down the street and the line is wrapped around the building, like wrapped around the street. Wow. These people from this community came out in droves to support the opening day of this shop.

We, we had, uh, you know, done a social media presence before opening and things like that, but it was. Unreal. Like I’m still kind of speechless about it because it was unreal. I walked out the door. I was the one who got to open the door for the first time. It was so much fun. But when I walked outside, I looked down the street and it’s like around the corner, and I was like, Oh my word. This is insane.

Tonya: Um, you can’t seat all those people.

Maddie: No. I was like, okay, we gotta get like to-go Cups going on. Like Right. My staff is brand new to this. I was like, it’s okay. We’re just gonna fly by the seat of our pants. It’ll be fine. Yep. But you know, since then, since then, it hasn’t stopped. Like the, of course that line has not happened since, and I’m kind of thankful for that cuz that was nuts.

Right? But you know, people still come in and they’ll be like, oh, I saw you on opening day. And I’m like, I’m sure you did. I probably don’t remember it because I saw like a thousand people that day. But like people won’t stop coming in. And the amount of emails that I get from. Other community members who have either a connection to the disability community or have a connection to some sort of ice cream, something, um, or a business locally.

I get emails constantly, hey, can we do this collaboration? Hey, can we do this fundraiser with you? Hey, can we? You know, can you cater our event? Um, cuz we do have like a catering department, so we get all kinds of phone calls, emails. From people who came to opening day who saw that wrapped around the street, but people who have talked to, people who have talked to people who have talked to people now know about Howdy, and it just kind of exploded from there.

So, the community has been beyond accepting, being next door to Gigi’s and having a, an active partnership with them has been yeah, a huge networking success for us. Um, here at Howdy and we, you know, love our, our partnership with them. But I mean, we’ve started partnerships with, you know, all kinds of fun stuff.

We just, you know, finished catering, um, an event at Duke, a couple of events at Duke. And so that’s like partnerships that we never really thought we would have this soon. Um, but the community has just been like, Octopus arms, they’ve just grabbed on and pulled us in. And we are so excited that we have such an awesome community.

I’ve been telling people that I’m gonna call Carrie the inclusion boom. Um, because all of a sudden it seems like Carrie has become this hub for the inclusion boom in the triangle for sure. Right. Nice. But yeah, it’s been, it’s been amazing. We’ve had people from esteemed come down and bring us signs and, and stuff that are actually just sitting in my office right over here.

Welcoming us to the town and, and to the community.

Tonya: So those that are listening, um, Esteemed Coffee is in the same general area and they’re, um, hiring similar employees. You talked a little bit about how their, like, what their response has been. How can people support your shop in its mission?

Maddie: Yeah, so the, the biggest way, I think I would say, um, there’s two ways that come to mind.

The first is just coming to the shop. Need to just get in your car, drive down here, park in the parking deck, and walk to the doors. You know, I can guarantee you’re gonna leave with a smile on your face. Um, if not, because of my employees, it’s gonna be because of the ice cream. Believe me, me, we make all of it in house and people, I swear I’ve never seen someone, you know, be upset when they taste ice cream.

Especially Howdy Ice Cream. So yeah, we make all of it here. Um, and that’s a big selling point. A lot of people love that we make our ice cream in-house and, um, that my heroes get to help with that process too. So, first thing I will say is just get in the car, drive down here, experience it. You’re gonna wanna come back.

I can tell you that for sure. I have a hard time leaving myself, and I work here. Um, the other thing, um, that I’ve been working on is very, very, like new in the works is, um, a fundraiser for us. We, um, kind of want to do a big, you know, summer Bash sun, like fun in the sun, some type of fundraiser. Um, I haven’t figured out what the theme is.

I will be taking ideas if anyone, if anyone in the community, anyone listening has ideas for that. Um, but that’s something that we are hopefully going to have this summer that I really want to push out to the community and say, Hey, if you really wanna support us, you know, if you really wanna support what we’re doing here, then, then financially help us out so that we can continue to provide those jobs for people.

Part, as part of the disability community, right? Give us the funds so that we can turn around and create a job for someone that you may know. Um, because, you know, we want to continue expanding and we want to continue going out into more parts of the community and doing the same thing with the same business model and saying, hey, this is what we’ve started.

We want it to grow. Like, you know, Moss on a rock. We want it to go crazy. Um, and we can’t do that without, you know, without the support of the community financially. Right. Um, so I think that’s another thing that I would, I would say that, that we’re really pushing, or that I’m really pushing, and that Philip and I have been talking about is doing a, a, um, a very large.

Summer fundraiser theme, TBD. We don’t know yet. Great details to come, but to come.

Tonya: Ice cream will be related.

Maddie: Yes. There will be ice cream. There will be ice cream. I can promise you there will be ice cream. At some point in that event, it’ll probably be the showcase, the showstopper. Maybe we’ll even create a flavor for the fundraiser.

Who knows? But yes. Supporting us coming into the shop, talking to my employees. They love it. You know, just come in and support them. Um, but really, like, keep an eye out for that fundraiser, um, on our social media and stuff like that. And, um, we will, you know, announce details and things like that. But really coming and participating in that fundraiser or helping, helping me put on a fundraiser, that’s another thing.

Looking for volunteers, um, to help me put on this fundraiser. For sure cuz that’s our first big event where I can use volunteers. Um Right. But yeah, a call for volunteers to help me with fundraiser. Anyone out there listening please? I would love it.

Tonya: Before we wrap up here, is there anything else you’d like to share about the shop or about your employees or your mission?

Maddie: Yeah, um, I think one thing I always answer when someone asks me that after, you know, we’ve been talking for a while, is. The fact that my employees don’t know how much they bless me, um, I think it’s a common misconception that I’m the only one that’s blessing them because I’ve given them a job. I’ve given them a chance, um, and I spend my time with them, and I choose to spend my time with them.

They think that I’m just like a blessing, just a blessing to them. But what they don’t realize is the fact that. When I go home at night and I go to bed, I wake up excited the next morning to come and spend my day with my employees. You know, I get elated to come to work because I get to spend time with my favorite people on the planet, and they just happen to have disabilities.

They don’t, you know, they don’t understand, and the parents specifically, and my employees don’t understand how much of a blessing their families and their children and my employees. Are to my life. They, they fulfill a hole in me that is my calling. Right. You know, God called me to be in the position that I’m in and having people fulfill that and say Your blessing to us automatically becomes a blessing to me.

So, they don’t know how much love and acceptance and just genuine. Joy that they bring my heart just by me being able to, to be their boss, you know, to, to show up and say, all right, today we’re making this flavor of ice cream and I need this much scoop for catering. You know, we dance, we have fun, we laugh, and that’s just, it’s just joyful.

And it brings me, it blesses my heart to know that I’m blessing others, but it blesses my heart more to know. That I’m a part of a community who is constantly blessing me and they just happen to have a disability.

Tonya: It’s, it’s nothing like going to work and not actually working. Because you enjoy it so much.

Maddie: Absolutely. That’s a really good way to put it. It doesn’t really feel like work. I just kind of feel like I get to, you know, play. I mean, you think as a kid, right? You know your dreams are okay, I wanna be a vet, I wanna be Right. You know, an astronaut,

Tonya: an ice cream shop, this kid, come on.

Maddie: Yeah, this kid, I wanna run an ice cream shop.

Well, guess what? I’m 22 years old. I’m an adult. I’m doing that and it’s a lot of fun for sure.

Tonya: All right, Maddie, before we go, how can our listeners get in touch with you if they wanna contact you, or even, um, if you wanna give the address for the shop too, we’ll put, we’ll put all this in the show notes, but go ahead and tell us how, and we’ll, we’ll post that as well.

Maddie: Yeah, we are super active on social media. Um, all of the DMs or messages on Facebook will eventually get back to me, um, or to Philip. Um, so the best way to do that is through probably through our social media, um, which our handle is @howdytriangle. Um, and that’s for pretty much any social media that you could ever think of.

We have Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, those kind of things. Um, direct messaging is great. It, it ends up back at me most of the time. Um, and then our shop address is three 70 South Walker Street. Um, and that’s Cary, downtown Cary. It’s right behind the, the new library. Um, it’s right across the street from, um, the Cary Arts Center.

And then you go right down the street on the backside, we’re on Walker, right where the new park is going in and Howdy is right there.

Tonya: So those that are, those that are in the area, if you park in the parking garage, just walk around the building. She’s, she’s right there. So absolutely easy to find.

Maddie: You’ll see a sign.

Tonya: Maddie, thank you for joining us today. I really appreciate you sharing about what you’re doing at Howdy Homemade ice Cream. Thank you for taking the time to, to kind of connect all the dots for us and to tell us more about, about what you’re doing.

Maddie: Yeah, absolutely. It was such a pleasure getting to, getting to talk to you and letting you into my world and into my employee’s world for sure.

—- TOUR OF HOWDY HOMEMADE ICE CREAM —

Tonya: So, Allen, what’s your favorite part about working here?

Maddie: Um, getting to meet people and make friends.

Tonya: Annie, what’s yours, what’s your favorite part about working here?

Maddie: Um, my favorite it is, I. She works here. So, I work with my friends. Friends, yeah. It is, she is my friend. She’s my friend mad.

Tonya: Oh, okay. Maddie.

Maddie: So, Maddie’s the general manager.

So that’s how um, Anna got hired because Maddie had been her tutor. Oh, when, when you were at Gigi’s.

Anna: Right.

Tonya: Okay,

Cherie: So, she asked her if she’d want to come work here. So, you know, so a lot of, and it’s been really fun to see some connections that have happened, you know, with all the employees since.

Tonya: What is your favorite process of that?

Anna: My favorite It is, um, uh, uh, iPad,

Cherie: this cash.

Tonya: Oh, do

Allen: I like the, the, um, cash register. This is, um, fun, but I like doing the toppings and stuff.

Tonya: Oh yeah.

Allen: Even though I’m really messy at it. Especially the sprinkles.

Cherie: That’s what the tray is,

Tonya: yeah.

Cherie: That’s what the trays for.

Allen: Yeah.

Tonya: So, are you, um, do you smell like ice cream by the time you’re finished with the shift?

Allen: No. Um, I don’t think I smell like ice cream, but I want ice cream by the time I’m done with the shift.

Tonya: I was gonna ask, you either want it or you don’t want it at all. So, so, so you, you actually want it by the, by the end of your shift.

Allen: Oh, there, yeah. But, um, I don’t eat ice cream every day after I’ve finished with my shift.

Cherie: Yeah. His mom says once a week. Once a week. Once a week.

Allen: So, I do, uh, at the end of my work week.

Tonya: Oh, nice. So, a little celebration of the, of the week. Yeah, I can see that.

Cherie: Anna gets it every shift, don’t she?

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Cherie: She gets it. She gets it before she just had hers already. She gets it before she can’t wait, so, and she gets marshmallows right on top.

Anna: Yeah.

Cherie: You like that all? So anyway.

Anna: Yeah.

Cherie: So, they enjoy it.

Steve: If you’re enjoying this show and want to support us, consider making a donation at buy me a coffee.com/water prayer. Your contribution helps us keep bringing you great content week after week.

Tonya: Thanks for listening to today’s interview. It’s amazing to see the positive impact that can come from creating inclusive employment opportunities.

For individuals with disabilities. If you want to learn more about Howdy homemade ice cream, look for their contact information in the show notes. And if you’re in the area, stop by for a scoop of ice cream and tell them you’ve heard about them on the Water Prairie Chronicles.

The post Episode #63: Changing Lives One Scoop at a Time: An Ice Cream Shop with a Mission appeared first on Water Prairie.

As our understanding of neurodiversity continues to evolve, it's become increasingly clear that our education system needs to adapt to meet the needs of all learners. Today, we're joined by Dr. Evisha Ford, the Founding Executive Director of the iCan Dream Center, a therapeutic school that serves neurodiverse learners and their families. Dr. Ford is a leading advocate for inclusive education and has dedicated her career to helping schools create environments where all students can thrive. In this episode, we'll be discussing how parents can help encourage their children's schools to become more inclusive, as well as practical strategies that educators can use to support neurodiverse learners. So, whether you're a parent, an educator, or just interested in learning more about neurodiversity, this episode is not to be missed.

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

As our understanding of neurodiversity continues to evolve, it’s become increasingly clear that our education system needs to adapt to meet the needs of all learners. Today, we’re joined by Dr. Evisha Ford, the Founding Executive Director of the iCan Dream Center, a therapeutic school that serves neurodiverse learners and their families. Dr. Ford is a leading advocate for inclusive education and has dedicated her career to helping schools create environments where all students can thrive. In this episode, we’ll be discussing how parents can help encourage their children’s schools to become more inclusive, as well as practical strategies that educators can use to support neurodiverse learners. So, whether you’re a parent, an educator, or just interested in learning more about neurodiversity, this episode is not to be missed.

Order Dr. Ford’s Book, Benches in the Bathroom: https://amzn.to/3qgaUrl

Connect with Dr. Evisha Ford:

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used: “LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Dr. Evisha Ford is the Founding Executive Director of iCan Dream Center, a therapeutic school in Illinois, that serves the needs of neurodiverse learners and their families. She began her career serving inner-city homeless youth in Chicago. She is a former Assistant Superintendent, Director of Special Education, and Assistant Professor of Educational Leadership.

Dr. Ford is a sought after thought leader in schools nationally and internationally. She specializes in trauma-compassionate leadership, program design, cultural and racial equity, and effective school and nonprofit leadership. She is the author of Benches in the Bathroom: Leading a Physically, Emotionally, and Socially Safe School Culture. Dr. Ford was honored as one of the influential “100 Black Women in Chicago” for her educational contributions. However, her most generous recognition as “best mom ever” is granted by her two sons.

To learn more about Dr. Ford’s work, visit her website https://drevisha.com.

(* Transcript will post soon)

The post Episode #62: Creating a Culture of Acceptance: How Inclusive Schools Can Build Stronger Communities appeared first on Water Prairie.

Show Notes:

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

Discover how an elementary school music teacher from Ohio is revolutionizing education by creating sensory and emotionally inclusive classrooms. Through his personal experiences with ADHD and sensory processing disorder, Bryson Tarbet advocates for removing barriers and empowering students to embrace their unique selves. Join us on this episode of the Water Prairie Chronicles as Bryson shares his insights and strategies for incorporating music education to help students with ADHD and SPD develop self-regulation skills that extend beyond the classroom.

In Episode 61 of the Water Prairie Chronicles, Tonya Wollum interviews Bryson Tarbet, an elementary school music teacher from Columbus, Ohio, who is an advocate for creating sensory and emotionally inclusive classrooms. Bryson shares his personal experiences of being diagnosed with ADHD as a child and sensory processing disorder (SPD) in recent years. He embraces his unique way of processing the world and uses his experiences to shape his teaching methods.

In the Two Truths and a Lie game, Bryson reveals three facts about himself: he has been in multiple professional operas, a deer once jumped through his classroom window, and he aspired to be a paramedic when he was younger. Listeners are invited to guess which fact is a lie by posting in the comments.

The conversation then focuses on ADHD and SPD, with Bryson explaining that both are neurological disorders affecting how individuals process the world. He shares how ADHD manifests for him, often resulting in hyper-fixation and forgetfulness. In contrast, his sensory processing disorder is characterized by sound sensitivities, which can lead to overstimulation and mood changes. Bryson embraces these challenges and aims to create a classroom where students can feel comfortable being themselves without conforming to neurotypical standards.

Tonya asks Bryson about the importance of creating sensory-friendly classrooms. He explains that sensory needs are fundamental and meeting those needs helps prevent disruptive behaviors and promotes safety. Bryson emphasizes the significance of removing barriers and providing opportunities for students to regulate their sensory experiences, ensuring they do not feel punished for things beyond their control.

Regarding music education, Bryson highlights how it can help students with ADHD and SPD develop self-regulation skills. As someone who found solace in music, he believes it offers validation and allows hyper-fixations to be channeled into something the world values. Bryson mentions that music education teaches collaboration, teamwork, and understanding individual contributions. He appreciates the flexibility music provides for movement, allowing students to learn in ways that suit their needs.

Tonya and Bryson discuss how music education extends beyond the classroom. Music helps students understand their emotions and how different music can regulate them. By fostering introspection and reflection, music education equips students with tools applicable to various aspects of their lives.

Challenges associated with teaching music in a sensory-friendly manner are also addressed. The music classroom presents distractions such as instruments, bright lights, and sound triggers. Bryson shares strategies he has implemented, including fidget tools and headphones for tactile feedback and sound dampening. These accommodations are available to all students, not just those with sensory needs, to promote inclusivity.

In conclusion, Bryson’s interview sheds light on the importance of creating inclusive classrooms that address the sensory and emotional needs of students. He demonstrates how music education can be a powerful tool for self-regulation and empowerment, allowing students to thrive beyond the classroom.

Connect with Bryson:

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used: “LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Bryson Tarbet is a PreK-6th grade general music teacher just outside of Columbus, Ohio. He received his Bachelor’s of Music in Music Education from Ohio Wesleyan University his Master of Music in Music Education with a Kodály emphasis from Capital University.

Bryson spent his first year out of college as part of an elementary school intervention team and he fell in love with working with students with disabilities. Due to this experience, as well as his personal experience as a neurodiverse individual, Bryson feels very strongly about advocating for sensory and emotionally-inclusive classrooms.

Bryson started That Music Teacher, LLC with the goal of sharing different perspectives on issues pertaining to the lives of music educators across the country. He also hosts That Music Podcast, a podcast for elementary music teachers and is the educator behind the Elementary Music Summit.

More information about Bryson and That Music Teacher can be found at www.ThatMusicTeacher.com. Bryson can also be found on Instagram and Facebook @ThatMusicTeacher.

(* Transcript will post soon)

The post Episode #61: Sensory Needs Matter: Empowering Students Through Music appeared first on Water Prairie.

Have you ever tried to travel while using a wheelchair? Does the thought of trying to get around while on a vacation cause you anxiety? Today, we have a very special guest on our podcast - Kristin Secor, an adventurous traveler who has explored the world in a wheelchair and while on a ventilator. Kristin's journey with muscular dystrophy has not blunted her thirst for travel, and she has discovered some amazing tips and tricks for traveling with a disability. From visiting the National Parks to camping in an RV to traveling around the world, Kristin has seen it all, and today she will be sharing her insights and experiences with us. So, grab your travel notebook and get ready to plan your next trip after hearing Kristin's story.

Find the full directory at waterprairie.com/listen.

Have you ever tried to travel while using a wheelchair? Does the thought of trying to get around while on a vacation cause you anxiety? Today, we have a very special guest on our podcast – Kristin Secor, an adventurous traveler who has explored the world in a wheelchair and while on a ventilator. Kristin’s journey with muscular dystrophy has not blunted her thirst for travel, and she has discovered some amazing tips and tricks for traveling with a disability. From visiting the National Parks to camping in an RV to traveling around the world, Kristin has seen it all, and today she will be sharing her insights and experiences with us. So, grab your travel notebook and get ready to plan your next trip after hearing Kristin’s story.

Connect with Kristin:

National Parks Access Pass Information: https://www.nps.gov/subjects/accessibility/interagency-access-pass.htm

Connect with Us: https://linktr.ee/waterprairie

Support this channel: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/waterprairie

Music Used: “LazyDay” by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Kristin was born with a rare form of Muscular Dystrophy, which impacts her mobility, strength, balance, endurance, and breathing.  While her disease presents challenges, she is determined to live life to the fullest and hopes to help others along the way.  A former mental health counselor now turned wheelchair-accessible travel blogger; she hopes to combine her love of travel with her desire to help others to inspire people with mobility problems to travel to places they may have never thought possible.  Kristin has traveled across the United States and abroad and shares her accessible travel information with others through her blog worldonwheelsblog.com.  Thus far she has been to four continents and twenty countries with the hopes of visiting all seven continents by the end of 2026.  She also plans to visit as many US National Parks as possible. 

(* Transcript will post soon)

The post Episode #60: Breaking Barriers: How to Travel the World with a Wheelchair appeared first on Water Prairie.