It’s not every day that a puppet dog is attacked on national television at an award’s ceremony. But that’s exactly what happened 20 years ago, when the musician Moby was insulted and threatened by the rapper Eminem, who proceeded to also assault a puppet dog on live TV. As the world processes what happened with Will Smith and Chris Rock at the Academy Awards, I thought it’d be interesting to talk to Moby about his experience from 2002. And the conversation gave me a new perspective on the Smith/Rock fight.

While in many ways that fight is just one trivial feud, it lends insight into deeper questions about the human condition: Are the conflicts we go through biological, or cultural? Are human beings inherently violent, or can we evolve beyond it? And what hope is there for the future, when not just celebrities but entire nations can’t seem to stop themselves from literally beating and even killing one another? These and many other questions are discussed, and tentatively answered, in this conversation with Moby. And I think you’ll be as fascinated as I was by some of his responses: dark, at times; hilarious, at others; but always, above all, deep and provocative.

Music by Moby: Everything That Rises