In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss how to handle situations when the problems affecting an agency’s client relationship stem from external contacts like procurement, IT, or the sales team.

They emphasize treating client contacts as allies and not enemies, and provide strategies to navigate bureaucratic hurdles and internal politics. The discussion covers creative problem-solving techniques such as using MSAs, having biweekly calls with VPs of Sales, and understanding cultural differences. The importance of having a collaborative approach and pre-building relationships to effectively manage challenges is also highlighted.

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’ve got this, this invisible guy over here, and he’s telling me what we need to do for this show today. And, and we have to follow it to the letter if we wanna record.

Gini Dietrich: Oh, who is it?

Chip Griffin: I dunno, but if someone, someone is telling me that we need to, to record an episode about what to do when your problem isn’t the client contact for your agency, but it’s someone else, someone off screen who’s telling them what they have to do and it’s causing problems for your relationship.

Gini Dietrich: Oh, someone like procurement or IT?

Chip Griffin: Someone like procurement. Mm-hmm. IT, the sales team.

Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm.

Chip Griffin: The CEO.

Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm.

Chip Griffin: All sorts of people who may not be involved in any of the day-to-day work that our client contacts are doing, but they are just involved enough that they can cause trouble.

Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Kind of like me having to tell a client’s VP of sales the other day that we’re not their local Kinkos.

Chip Griffin: Yes.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I actually used those words.

Chip Griffin: I mean, to be fair, FedEx Kinko’s now, so you’re, you’re dating yourself, but

Gini Dietrich: I, fair, yes, you’re right. But also it got the point across.

Chip Griffin: Yes, it got the point across, but, but did it resolve the situation or did they just say

Gini Dietrich: It did resolve the situation. Okay, good. Good. I think it made him mad, but he understood that we’re not here to just print the brochures for him.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. No, that is, that is not the role of an agency. But no, a lot of times we do have these, these pressures or our, or really it’s our client contacts who feel the immediate pressure, right? They get, they get told by procurement that they have to, to find a way to cut the budget with their agency. They get told by IT that, you know, you can’t do this with email or that with your website or those kinds of things, or there are all these extra hoops to jump through and there’s no budget to pay for all those extra hoops or, I mean, just any number of different things that, that we see as agencies that we have to find some way to deal with.

And it’s tough because when it’s our client contact, we can at least have a direct conversation. But when it’s someone who is, who is literally off screen, for most of us, since we’re doing these conversations typically by Zoom these days. Someone offscreen meddling is a lot harder to deal with. So, so what is your advice to an agency owner who says, look, I’ve, I’ve got these challenges and, and my client contact agrees with me, but, but how can I help them to get this across the goal line the way we need to?

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it depends on what it is for sure. I mean, we’ve had the situation where procurement, of course, has wanted us to reduce fees. So then it’s a conversation with the client contact to say, Hey, listen, this is what they’re asking us for. That means we’re gonna have to take this, this, and this out of this scope of work.

Typically the client contact can influence that and go down and talk to procurement or send an email or do a support ticket or whatever it happens to be, to be able to influence that. And sometimes they can even elevate it or escalate it above to their supervisor or their supervisor’s supervisor. It just depends.

But that’s usually where, usually where we start is saying If we do this, this is what it, this is how it will affect the work that we’re going to do together. And this is what you can expect. And typically they’ll, they’ll go to bat for you. So I would start there for sure.

Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, I think that that fundamentally what you’re describing is, is treating your client contact as an ally, not the enemy.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: And, and it is tough because sometimes when we, when we hear these things, it’s, it’s often, you know, we often put ourselves in the position of wanting to shoot the messenger because that’s who we’re, we’re talking to our client contact on a daily basis. And when they tell us, you know, these are the rules or these are the things we need to do, you know, we, we can get frustrated with them, but we need to remember.

Most of the time or many of the times, it’s not them. They, they have the same view we do. And so we need to try to figure out how we can work together to overcome their internal obstacle. And it, and it does mean that, you know, we may need to make some compromises ourself. We may need to, to invest a little bit more time and energy into helping things done.

And some of that may be uncompensated time. If needed in order to, to try to, to clear these hurdles. But they are necessary hurdles to clear. Otherwise we may not be able to achieve the results or we may have to, to eliminate some of our profit margin or any number of different problems that we may run into if we’re not willing to invest in the short term in overcoming those difficulties.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I would say most of the time people are pretty reasonable. You can, you can say, and usually your client contact is gonna be like, Ugh, this is so frustrating. I can’t have you reduce the scope, right? Because we need to do these things and I’m held accountable to those results. And so, you know, so it, so the…It, it rolls downhill for sure. So usually they will go to bat for you and we’ve had a couple of examples where they’ve had to go to their supervisor and say, Hey, I need you to help me push this through. But for the most part, I think you’re right. If you can use your client contact as the ally, you can usually get things done the way you need it to, to be done.

Chip Griffin: And I think the other thing we need to do is, is remind ourselves that, that these unseen actors are by and large, not bad people either. They’re just, they’re, they’re doing their job in the way that they think is best. So, so even procurement, and we all love to dump on procurement. Fairly in my view, because a lot of them are looking just at the numbers and not really,

Gini Dietrich: it’s a little challenging.

Yeah, yeah.

Chip Griffin: So, but, but we need to remember that, that they are people. And so, you know, our first instinct as, as we usually advise on this show, is to treat other people like humans. And, and if you can, try to relate to them. If you can try to, I mean, one of the things I always advise is try to get them in the conversation.

Don’t, don’t play a game of telephone because a game of telephone is hard to win. You, you can’t because you know, now you’re just trying to coach up your client contact on, on what they need to say. But you’re not part of the conversation. You’re not, you’re not sure if, if something is getting lost in translation in either direction, frankly.

Right, right. And so you really want to try to get to a place where you can get in the same room with whoever, whatever that external force is that’s causing difficulty for your relationship.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, for sure. And I, I think that’s really good advice. I think it’s sometimes I have the tendency to wanna go directly to the source, and you also have to be careful that, that may, from a political standpoint, may not be the right thing.

So again, start with your client contact. Say, Hey, I’m happy to help you with this. Or, you know, wanna schedule a Teams call for all three of us, whatever happens to be, but… I’ve also gotten in trouble for going straight directly to the source to say, Hey, like how can we do this? So I would say, bring your client contact in as much as you can until they say, I’m happy for you to take this on, or let me schedule a call, or whatever happens to be.

Chip Griffin: Right. Or, or, I mean, I would say just the, the flip side to that is if you get all of you in a room, and I agree, that’s where you should start. If you read that room and there’s some friction between your internal contact and whoever you’re really trying to deal with, then I would try to extract your client contact sooner rather than later.

Yes, absolutely. Yes, because sometimes there’s internal politics going on or just personality differences or whatever, and so sometimes you can actually accomplish more if you, if you politely move on from having your client contact in those. It, you really have to, it’s a case by case situation.

Sometimes it’s better to have them there so they can see what’s happening and they can either intervene or translate or at least you know, know what’s going on so that they can’t say, well, I don’t understand why you’re not doing this well, ’cause, you know, so and so in procurement told us we couldn’t, or so and so in sales is pushing in this direction.

You know, you, you want to try to, to figure out what works in that particular situation. But certainly sometimes taking someone out the room who is part of the, the challenge can be helpful.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And you said the word translation. I think it, we have several clients who, procurement is done in another country, and so English is not their first language, and so we find that some of the, the barriers to success are because of that and not because of the other things that we assume it is. So we always try to bring in somebody who can translate between us and them. Even if they speak English, you know, English not being their first language, and certainly not the u US culture that we have. You, it’s always good to have somebody in the room or on the, on the teams call that can help kind of finagle those things for you, especially if you don’t speak, you know, the language.

And many of, many of the languages aren’t, that we face are not even like Spanish, French. They’re like Arabic, right. Or Chinese. And really, I dunno.

Chip Griffin: Well, and, and sometimes it’s not just the language, it’s the culture as well. That Right. That can impact. Right, because there are, yep. There are certain cultures where it, it may be that, that, you know, they will always demand more than what they actually expect.

’cause they’re expecting to, to have pushback and negotiation. There are others where people will just say this, this is what we need. Let’s figure out how to get there. And, and having someone internally who can help you to understand, you know, what are they really asking for? What, what, you know, is this, is this a take it or leave it kind of thing?

Or is there room to negotiate, either on, on price or activity or whatever to, to get to a, a happy place. And, and without that knowledge, that can be shared oftentimes by your client contact, it’s not just that you know, that you’re literally speaking different languages. It might be that, that there’s a lot in the, the culture that is different as well, that you need to, to grasp in order to get success.

Gini Dietrich: You raised such a good point because there are some cultures who expect negotiation, like that’s just part of their culture. So having that understanding I think is really smart. Because that will help you too, because if they’re expecting you to negotiate, don’t be scared of that. Like go into it to negotiate.

It’s kind of fun.

Chip Griffin: Right, right. And, and there are, I mean, there are, there are opportunities to negotiate. There are, you know, knowing the motivations of the people. Sometimes you’re dealing with a department that are, you know, absolute rule followers, right. You know, if you, if you, if you talk with most IT professionals for example, they’re like, well, our policy says this and, and there’s no real easy wiggle room there.

But sometimes you can have a rational conversation with them if you try to find alternatives. And instead of saying, well, we have to do that. Well, well, what if we tried this instead? Is there some other… Is there some other path that that might get us? Mm-hmm. To the same result? Mm-hmm. Or try to help them to understand why this really isn’t the risk that you think it is. I mean, I’ve, I’ve done in the past a lot of negotiations with defense contractors and those sorts of things, and they often have a whole litany of security procedures that you need to, to follow and that kind of stuff, and, and then, you know, you sometimes sit with them and say, well, look here, we’re not dealing with any sensitive information here.

Right. This is all. This is all public media information. There’s nothing here that, that needs that level of protection. So is there, perhaps, you know, can we perhaps reach some accommodation? Or sometimes procurement will say, you need to carry an insurance policy for, you know, vehicular accidents. And I’m like, well, why?

Like, I’m, I’m never gonna be driving for this contract. So that doesn’t really make any sense. And, and oftentimes that’s like construction firms, right? Where, you know, most of their vendors have some sort of a, a physical presence or something like that. And so you need to, to be able to have those rational conversations and say, okay, I understand this is your policy, but, but let’s talk through how might this actually apply to us and our situation.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that’s really smart. And one of the things that we’ve started doing is, especially with the, the big, big companies is becoming part of their network. So anything that we do, any information that we share goes through their network. We all have email addresses that are our client, that have our, that end in our client’s, URL.

We have access to their teams environment, you know, so we, we, for all intents and purposes, are part of their organization just for distributing information and nothing can come to our side, because they’re worried about IT and security. Right? And another thing is, is that we’ve, we always ask what the threshold is for financial amounts because there’s usually an amount of money that your client contact can approve without it going to procurement or to their boss or whatever happens to be.

So we always find out what that is and see if we can work within those constraints. And sometimes we split up scope of work so that it falls underneath that threshold so that our client contact is the one who gets to approve it and it doesn’t have to go through all these other hoops and and hurdles.

Chip Griffin: Right. And a lot of time it is also yet another argument for what we generally advocate for here, which is having a master services agreement plus individual statements of work. Yep, yep. So a lot of these things get dealt with just once when you do that master services agreement. That’s right.

And now you’ve got a lot more potential wiggle room to deal with issues later on. Because you’re not having to, to introduce as many people for renewals and all of that kind of stuff. And, and it’s, it’s why I’m such a big supporter of the evergreen MSA with, and just hang off individual SOWs as needed.

Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. I totally agree with that. We have one master of services agreement and we alphabetize our SOWs and I think we’re on AO right now for the year. So yeah, that, you know, that just tells you like how we’re able to do that without having to go through that whole rigamarole every single time. I mean, if we had to do that for all of those… I wouldn’t be able to get my day job done.

Chip Griffin: Right. Well, and and your your point about, you know, understanding, you know, what are some of the thresholds internally for things, it’s really helpful for you to, to do some of that creative problem solving with your client contact. And when you run up against an obstacle, or something like that, you know, trying to figure out is there a creative way that we can get from here to there?

Yep. Yep. And that might be by becoming part of their email system. It might be by have coming under a financial threshold. It might be by doing something through some affiliated organization. You know, maybe, maybe you become a subcontractor to someone else who’s already dealt with a lot of that kind of stuff.

And you know, there’s a lot of different options that that can help you. To solve these issues. It won’t solve every one of them. Sometimes you have to deal with them head on, but if you can find ways to creatively get around those obstacles, that can be really helpful.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I know that a lot of the big companies have usually an agency of record and will the, the AOR can bring in smaller agencies under their umbrella so that you don’t have to deal with those kinds of things.

So if that, you know, I would ask that question. Does it make more sense for us to come under the AOR? And in most cases, the agency of record is set up to, to handle that so that. You know, it makes, it makes it easier for the client to hire the teams that they want without the teams having to do all the insurance and all of the vehicular accident insurance and things that you really don’t need, but it prevents you from having to do that kind of stuff.

So that’s another question you could ask is, is there an AOR that we could umbrella underneath.

Chip Griffin: Right. So we, we’ve talked mostly about policy driven or financially driven obstacles from outside, but there are other, there are more strategic obstacles that can arise as well, or even tactical ones. And that typically comes from other business units.

Particularly sales teams or senior executives who are not necessarily directly involved in your day-to-day work. And, and those can be sometimes a little bit trickier to deal with because you’re not dealing, I mean, there, there’s some benefit to dealing with black and white policy, right? Because now you can figure out, okay, how do we, how do we deal with these?

Mm-hmm. When you’ve got a sales team saying, well, you’re not, this is not accomplishing enough, or this is not generating the right kinds of leads, or whatever it may be. That can sometimes be a little bit more challenging argument because it does, it often becomes a little bit more subjective. It often becomes a little bit more, you know, based on opinion as to, to what the best path forward is.

And so that can be a challenging one to deal with because, you know, now you’re, you’re dealing with things that are not as, as clear cut and you can just reach a simple resolution.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, I am a big believer in the account lead, having a relationship with the sales lead. In some cases that might be the agency owner.

You know, I have a really good relationship with at least three VP of sales for our clients, and I have biweekly calls with those guys to make sure that we’re on the same page, we’re doing the right things. I also have a relationship with one where I can tell ’em we’re not their Kinkos and we’re not here to print brochures. But I, I’m a strong believer in that. And I know we also talked last week about my process of doing quarterly assessments, and I think both of those things help in those kinds of relationships because now you have that ongoing relationship with sales. Who can, who you can say, let’s test this, or let’s test that.

Or you know, you were in our quarterly assessment and we agreed to these things. Do you wanna keep going or do you wanna move to focus on that? And I will say that in some cases, especially, you know, if you’re working with a mid-sized company, the sales leader is constantly being, you know pressured to do more sales. And sometimes they’ll come and say, I just got my sales number increased by 20% and I need your help to do that.

And I understand that it wasn’t part of our quarterly assessment. What can you do to help? So, you know, having those relationships and those on ongoing conversations I think helps a ton.

Chip Griffin: And I, I think a lot of the same advice that we offered earlier in this conversation applies. Treat them as human.

Don’t view them as the enemy, and instead say, okay, you know, I, I understand your challenge. How do we get there? And too often I see in organizations it’s, I think it’s fairly common for marketing to blame sales. Sales to blame marketing and sales and marketing both blame product or client service or whomever.

Sure. May be in that particular organization and, and none of that is helpful because you are all on the same team ultimately. And so you need to try to find ways to work together and figure out, okay, how can we get the best possible outcome? Yes. And if it’s simply marketing saying, well, sales isn’t doing a good job of closing. Or sales saying, you’re not giving me enough good quality leads, that’s not helpful.

Have a conversation, figure out, you know, why is it not achieving the results that, that you want or that executives want? Are, are those results even possible? If so, how do we get there? Is it changing our ideal client profile? Is it changing some of our tactics? Is it investing differently?

There’s a lot of ways that you can get there, but it needs to be done collaboratively. And so in those cases, I strongly encourage you to work with your client contact to bring those other parties into the room and have a candid conversation. Yeah, yeah. And talk through what’s possible and honestly what isn’t. I mean, sometimes there are unrealistic views of what can be done.

You know? Oh, let’s, you know, let’s double our leads next month. Okay. Well. How are we gonna do that? Mm-hmm. You know, you don’t just wave a magic wand say, okay, we’re gonna

Gini Dietrich: Right. Woo, double your leads. Woo.

Chip Griffin: We’re gonna, we’re gonna send you twice as many SQLs next month as last month. Or all of a sudden we’re gonna get, you know three times the earned media coverage.

So sometimes it is just you really have to educate. This is not possible to do this on this timescale and instead talk about what is possible on that short timescale and what it would take to get to some of those more ambitious numbers. But you can only do that if you are having a real conversation in the room or if you’re talking with your client contact and saying, what do you need from us?

How can we help you to have this conversation? Because sometimes they, they can’t or won’t bring the agency directly into the conversation. That’s your ideal. But you may just need to try to coach up, educate and provide resources to your client contact so that they can carry the water forward.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know what, last week we talked about. Not doing proposals for free and not giving away all your ideas and, and creating a sort of discovery phase in your process so that you’re getting paid for your ideas. And I think that’s part of this is part of that, which is as you’re doing your discovery and having conversations.

It’s not just with the CEO and the CFO and the CO, like bring in the sales team, bring in the IT team, bring in members from those other customer service, the other teams that are gonna help you do your job. And not only that, but understand the culture and the organization better. Start to build those relationships in the beginning so that when these things happen, and they inevitably do happen, that you have those relationships already built and can have those really have really good, robust collaborative conversations.

Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, that, that’s a, that’s a great point is to, to make sure that those relationships are not the kind of thing that you only think about when you’ve got these challenges arising. Yeah. They, they need to be pre stocked, if you will.

I, I will say that, that I had a mild moment of panic when you said last week we talked about, and I’m like…

I can’t remember what we talked about last week. Thank you. So thank you for elaborating on that. So I was not

Gini Dietrich: So you may remember. You’re welcome.

Chip Griffin: And I, and I realized that last week in our universe for this is only like four days ago,

Gini Dietrich: Two days ago. Yes.

Chip Griffin: Because of some scheduling anomalies. But yeah, my, my elderly brain was not able to remember that.

Gini Dietrich: I think it’s ’cause you’re overly tired.

Chip Griffin: Uh, that’s possible. It happens. Yeah. Plus I’m old, so there’s that too. On that note, I think, before I forget what we’re actually talking about here today, we’ll just draw this episode to a close. I think we’ve offered some useful tips that hopefully will help you to navigate some of these difficult challenges.

And, and meanwhile, I’m gonna go talk to the invisible man and see if I did a good enough job that, that we can continue this show moving forward.

Gini Dietrich: Maybe we’ll get a raise. Ask for a raise too, please.

Chip Griffin: I mean, I just, I just, I don’t, I don’t want him to cancel the show, that’s all because I, I do enjoy recording this, even if I can’t remember what we talked about.

So on that note, I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich,

Chip Griffin: and it depends.