Justin Wolfers teaches economics 101 at the University of Michigan. It’s an introductory course about supply, demand, and trade. The basics. He wishes President Donald Trump attended.

Wolfers, an Australian known for his research on how happiness relates to income, is one of the more prominent economists speaking up about Trump’s sweeping tariff policies. He says that they not only betray the most basic laws of economics, but could very well tip the US into a recession unnecessarily.

On this episode of More To The Story, Wolfers sits down with host Al Letson to discuss why today’s tariffs are markedly different from the ones Trump imposed in 2018 and why tariffs almost never produce the intended effects that are often promised.

Producer: Josh Sanburn | Editor: Kara McGuirk-Allison | Theme music: Fernando Arruda and Jim Briggs | Fact checker: Serena Lin | Digital producers: Nikki Frick and Artis Curiskis | Interim executive producers: Taki Telonidis and Brett Myers | Executive editor: James West | Host: Al Letson 

Read: Democrats Grill Officials on Insider Profits From Trump’s Tariff Reversal (Mother Jones)

Read: Trump’s Trade War Is Here and Promises to Get Ugly (Mother Jones)

Listen: Trump’s Deportation Black Hole (Reveal)

Listen: Think Like an Economist