Tori talks to Melissa Urban, co-founder and CEO of Whole30, about her commitment to inclusion and justice in her personal life and business. You can find Melissa on Instagram at @melissau, and be sure to check out her podcast Do The Thing.

Within colonized spaces, members of a community are generally taught to expect punishment if they don’t comply with society’s demands. As people striving for antiracist policies and actions, this tool simply does not suffice. It also doesn’t work. We know from decades of research that punishment is one of the least effective terms for improving behavior in the long term. So what else do we have? (The resource I mentioned in the episode is called Exploring Cultural Values and Habits by Debby Irving, whose work can be found at DebbyIrving.com.)

We live in a society (and, frankly, a world) where black anger is policed, silenced, and shut down. Black people are praised for forgiveness but are frequently told that anger has no place as a response to harm caused by white supremacy. Andre Henry and Tori tackle this pervasive attempt to dehumanize black lives by limiting which emotions we are allowed to experience and express, and dig into the beauty that comes from listening to black voices.

Andre Henry joins me to talk about the importance of seeing whiteness as an integral part of antiracism. We discuss black joy, freedom, white abolitionists, and all the ways whiteness tries to avoid being seen.