Immigration policy is one of the most contested areas of contemporary politics. It is also one of the most misunderstood. Public debate often degenerates to trading numbers – how many people are coming in, and whether that number is too high or too low – but as Madeleine Sumption argues, the reality is both more complex and more difficult to resolve than that suggests. 

In this episode of the podcast, George Miller speaks to Madeleine Sumption, director of the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford and author of 'What is Immigration Policy for?'. They discuss why there is no single ‘right’ level of immigration, how the same evidence can lead to such different conclusions, and why attempts to control migration numbers so often fail. 

Their conversation also explores the limits of data in policymaking, the trade-offs between economic, humanitarian and political objectives, and the ways in which public debate often misses the fundamentally different purposes served by work, family and asylum migration.

Madeleine Sumption is the Director of the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford, which provides impartial analysis of migration in the UK.

Find out more about the book at: https://bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/trade/what-is-immigration-policy-for

The transcript is available here: https://www.transformingsociety.co.uk/2026/05/05/podcast-why-immigration-policy-doesnt-add-up/

Timestamps:

01:33 - What drew you into immigration policy as a career?

07:39 - Do most people cost the state more than we pay into it?

08:48 - Why is data and policy such a tricky relationship?

14:41 - Why can't you effectively cap net migration?

19:54 - What is the current state of the immigration debate in the US?

24:35 - How can we improve immigration policy?

31:11 - What's the one thing you wish everyone understood about immigration?

Intro music:

Cold by yoitrax | @yoitrax

Music promoted by www.free-stock-music.com 

Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License

creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en_US

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.