In this episode of our podcast series produced in collaboration with the Journal of Democracy, Ferenc Laczó speaks with Andrés Mejía Acosta and Javier Pérez Sandoval about their new article, “Why Populists Hollow Out Their States.”

They discuss how, why, and when elected leaders seek to undermine the state; what libertarians and leftists share when it comes to practices of state erosion and where they might differ; how the pertinent examples from Latin America they present in the article may be placed in a global context; and in what ways the connections between low-capacity states and flawed democracy may be conceptualized.

Andrés Mejía Acosta is associate professor at theUniversity of Notre Dame’s Keough School of Global Affairs.

Javier Pérez Sandoval is a postdoctoral research associatein democracy at Notre Dame.

Alina Young edited the audio file.