Windhorse Journal Podcast

Dear Listeners,

This Podcast series on the Windhorse practice of Basic Attendance explores the discipline as an expression of the wisdom, compassion and resulting reciprocity that can manifest in ordinary human relationships when cultivated within a ground of openness and relational warmth.

I came to the Windhorse approach after graduating from the Naropa Institute—now University—in 1980, and I had the good fortune to be around when this was being envisioned with other Naropa graduates. My attraction to this vision and practice had to do with the emphasis on a person being fundamentally sane and healthy, as well as to the importance placed on having an engaging and supportive social environment as they work with their current life challenges. It also met my need to continue working with others in a setting where I could include my practice and understanding of Contemplative Psychotherapy.

My exposure to the first Windhorse Team that had formed was at a social event in the therapeutic household of the “client”, and I was struck by the mutuality of connection among all members of the Team, including the so-called “client”. There was such a felt sense of closeness and camaraderie among everyone, as well as warmth and acceptance. It felt so wholesome to be in this environment. As a result, I became involved with this approach and was fortunate to be an active member of Maitri Psychological Services (as the Windhorse organization was named then) through its duration in the 1980’s.

The presentations and ensuing discussions included in this Podcast represent a window into the range of experiences that can occur when a Team member and “client” are spending time together for their Basic Attendance shifts. I have always felt that the possibilities of what can arise and be included during a shift is only limited by the collective and mutual imagination of the Team member and the “client” at that time, given that the entire community where it is taking place is available as a support and inspiration for their engagement. As a result, they can engage in household activities like attending to the physical environment, food preparation, or making art, to name a few possibilities. Also, activities can occur outside of the household, which could include taking classes together, going to the gym or for long hikes.

The examples shared in the Podcast quite beautifully express the invitation to be present to what is arising within oneself and the “client” in the environment. This, to me, is the ground of the Basic Attendance practice, as an experience and expression of the co-presence between the Team member and the “client”. And given the Team member’s sensitivity, this can unfold into very poignant and intimate relational sharing.

So, the Art of this Practice—and it is precisely that, rather than a recipe or list of techniques to apply—is a very human endeavor which can bring out the best in each person. The invitation there also is to face the full range of one’s experiences—i.e. fears and joys—as this unfolds, in a relational environment that supports this. We hope you enjoy this Podcast about these intimate and potentially healing encounters.

Thank you for joining us,

Kathy Emery

Dear Listeners,

Welcome to today’s podcast, the conclusion of our five-part series of Julia’s first-person recovery story. By its nature, what’s being told here is certainly unique, as each person’s journey is completely individual. But in this case, the highly unusual nature of our series goes further, as her team—Janneli Chapin, Jack Gipple, and Chuck Knapp—are also sharing their perspective, making this a truly rare opportunity to experience the multifaceted inner workings of a recovery journey.

We had originally planned to have this series end after four segments. However, once we’d finished with the original plan, Julia recognized that there was a bit more we needed to discuss–having to do with looking at recovery altogether—what it meant to her, and its “moving target” nature. This led us into looking at what it took for her to actually want to recover, and the conditions at hand, including luck. There’s a tremendous amount to learn from this series, but probably the most important takeaway is about the power of healthy, honest, and committed therapeutic relationships. Over the arc of their work together, the team helped her to rouse her natural courage to keep stepping back into the wilderness of change, and to eventually tolerate feeling more healthy—and more loved—than she had in a very long time. Julia’s wonder at how she made it out of such entrapment gave rise to so much gratitude and love on her part—actually, on everyone’s part. That in itself will make listening to this podcast well worth the freight—a heart-opening glimpse into the kind of love that can come out of sharing a recovery path.

In wrapping up, let’s come back to Julia’s original inspiration for sharing her story, which is her question: could I be a voice for those still suffering? We didn’t know how this series would play out when we first began, but now that we’re done, I would most emphatically say YES—you, Julia, have been a voice for those still suffering! And most importantly, you’ve offered something to our audience which could be truly lifesaving, what Joanne Greenberg calls “our most prized possession: hope”.

Thank you for making this journey with us,

Hello friends and listeners,

I am so glad that you are here, and I hope that you will enjoy today’s podcast. Hopefully you have had the opportunity to watch the first 3 podcasts.  I was very excited to have been given the opportunity to make these podcasts with Windhorse, and in particular with Jack, Janneli and Chuck.

In 1992 I took a medication that triggered a severe bipolar episode that sent me spiraling into a nightmare that lasted more than 20 years. You can hear about many of my experiences on the first 3 podcasts as Jack, Janneli , Chuck and I discuss our relationships over the first several years that we worked together. In fact, my relationship with my Windhorse team was only a part of a 23-year treatment plan that also included my psychiatrist, Dr. Michael Green.

In many ways, my severe illness—and some of the treatments I was given by the mental health system—made my condition more difficult for me to manage, and without the continuing support of my Windhorse team and Dr. Green, I probably wouldn’t have survived.

I am thrilled to be able to make these podcasts all these years later. It is a real gift for me to look back upon my relationships with Jack and Janneli and see how I was able to rely on their support to help me re-learn life skills, develop coping abilities, and learn to live again as a productive member of society. This was an amazing experience, certainly for me, but hopefully for anyone who wants to bear witness to the strength of the human spirit, and to one’s potential to recover and flourish if given the opportunity, the relationships, the skill and the love. I realize that everyone is different, and I was incredibly lucky. Some people might have every opportunity and still not make the recovery that I was able to achieve. I know that. But I also know that without Jack, Janneli and Dr. Green being the primary figures on my team, I wouldn’t be here today.

Many years ago, in about 2000, I started to write a book, which was also instrumental in helping me to heal. This book, ‘Raging Innocence’ is available online on Amazon, and goes into my life history in much greater detail. I hope if you are interested, you might consider reading it. In my book, as well as on these podcasts, I discussed the many negative and harmful experiences I had while being a patient in several in-patient psychiatric hospitals. The mental health system, while it generally means well, is flawed and needs major re-evaluation and educational input for those workers who get overwhelmed or burned out by contact with severely mentally ill patients.   On several occasions, while hospitalized, I was intensely and unnecessarily traumatized. On occasion, this was intentionally carried out by disgruntled mental health professionals who were unable to deal with my repeated self-mutilation.

It is my hope that this series of podcasts, and my book, will shine a light on the quality of care that is given to mentally ill patients. I am hopeful that the care I was given by my Windhorse team will be an example of what is possible and what should be aspired to. Those relationships are what allowed my fragile mind to recover, gain strength, and soar.

Thank you for listening,

Julia

Dear Listeners,

Welcome to today’s podcast, a first-person recovery story which we believe is a unique contribution to the resources on extreme state psychology—particularly around the phenomenon of cutting. In Part Three of this five-part series, we again join the members of Julia’s long-standing Windhorse team—Janneli Chapin, Jack Gipple, and Chuck Knapp—as they discuss the 12 years of their working together, along with her psychiatrist, Dr. Green.

Today’s dialogue covers a wide and dynamic arc. Beginning with the horror and helplessness of Julia’s former life having almost completely dissolved—still an uncomfortable reality all these years later. But in the depths of this meltdown, aspects of her health began to unmistakably emerge. Ordinary life was becoming more real—always powerful medicine—with checkbooks and keeping house. With this, glimpses of confidence began to flicker into view as she was feeling the uplift of small but sure successes. And Julia was also finding ways for her mind and body to reconnect, which brought forth a surprising array of positive consequences. Finally, as she reflected on this period where her natural sanity was beginning to flourish, Julia summed up the key to her healing: “the most important thing of all: relationship.”

What’s presented here is a beautiful emotional landscape of honesty and love—the kind that only exists in of such a powerful recovery path, especially at this stage. This is a rare glimpse into the working heart of a therapeutic team.

Thank you for joining us

Dear Listeners,

Welcome to today’s podcast. In Part Two of this five-part series, we once again join the four members of Julia’s long-standing Windhorse team as they continue to discuss their stark experiences and the realities of her recovery—particularly as this conversation takes them more vividly into her experiences of cutting. Speaking with unusual directness about the dynamics they experienced with each other and with the larger mental health system, this open-hearted discussion explores the power dynamics that harm and those that heal. Again, they speak about—and most importantly, model—the fundamental source of healing: genuine relationships and the care that held them together on their shared path of healing.

Please be aware that in this discussion, Julia shares details of her cutting that may be uncomfortable to listen to. But we included them as we’re confident that her candor and courage in sharing will create a powerful opportunity to learn more deeply about the state of mind that produced such acts of self-harm.

Thank you for joining us,

Jack Gipple

Welcome to today’s podcast, a first-person recovery story which we believe is a unique contribution to the resources on extreme state psychology—particularly around the phenomenon of cutting.

The arc of our story begins with Julia, who’s lost in a hellish life predicament, feeling “intrinsically ruined”—with no sense of a way out. At this point, pretty much everything she’s known as reliable reference points have been lost, and her confused acts and thoughts are only begetting more confusion and pain. Making matters worse, the trauma that lies at the root of her extremely dangerous cutting and suicidality is being compounded by systemic abuse—even as she’s looking for help. Life has truly become a nightmare, and any hope she once had has evaporated in the heat of her turmoil.

Dear Listeners,

In this podcast, four long-time Windhorse practitioners discuss the 4th (and last) principle of recovery: “No matter how disturbed a mind has become, recovery is possible.” Gabrielle Bershen, Jack Gipple, and I (Marta Aarli) share our insights and experiences of working for over 20 years on Windhorse teams, with host and moderator, Chuck Knapp. The conversation touches on the loss of connection with self, others, and the world—and the unique path each person walks to reclaim and reintegrate those parts of themselves that are innate but covered over by confusion. Each team works to recognize the client’s impulses toward health and support them in synchronizing with themselves through authentic relationships with the team members. This provides an antidote to isolation and loneliness while respecting each client’s choices as they build their confidence and reassemble their life—which can take a very long time. Each person’s recovery will be their own, and it may not look like what others want for them or what society defines as a normal life. Every team is a unique healing environment, a co-creation between a client and their team members. These principles are part of what makes the Windhorse approach so unusual—and the profound, long-term work that is possible in this setting.

We hope what you hear leads to greater understanding and empathy.

Marta Aarli

Dear Listeners,

Anyone who’s considered the territory of recovery from extreme mental states knows this to be a vast and subtle topic. And if this is a concern of yours, it’s also critical to reasonably understand—otherwise you may not recognize some of the key patterns as they’re occurring.

This podcast is the third in a four-part series. Senior Windhorse clinicians Gabrielle Bershen, Marta Aarli, and I (Jack Gipple)—along with our colleague and host, Chuck Knapp—take a deeper dive into the Windhorse assertion that “Recovery is the path of discovering and synchronizing with one’s own health and sanity.” The four of us have worked together over two decades on scores of Windhorse teams. This podcast reflects the depth of our shared experience as we discuss a number of interconnected topics: starting where you are, the individual genuine path of recovery, creating conditions of recovery but without a guarantee of recovery, finding confidence, cycles of recovery and regression, the long arc of recovery, and finally, the choice between the solitude of illness and the challenge (and courage it takes) to tolerate living in the world of consensus reality. These and more subtle aspects of recovery from extreme states of mind are the substance of this conversation among Windhorse clinicians and old friends.

We hope you find it engaging and enlightening.

Jack Gipple

Dear Listeners,

Welcome to this podcast discussion that explores the integration of the Windhorse approach with Dialogical Process that derives from Finland’s Open Dialogue treatment approach. We are also fortunate to publish here an original paper by Phoebe Walker, The Evolution of Dialogic Practice within the Windhorse Project, that provides substantial background for this exploration. Chuck Knapp and I recently hosted this discussion with Phoebe Walker, Cat Sargent, and Elise White. Phoebe, Cat, and Elise have each received extensive training in Dialogical Process while working as clinicians with Windhorse Integrative Mental Health, Northampton, MA. They and others in their home center have been working on the integration of these two clinical approaches for the past twenty years. We appreciated their willingness and readiness to accept our invitation to explore their work with such enthusiasm.

Both approaches to healing communication have areas of deep overlap. Both place a high value on authentic human dialogue that tolerates uncertainty, is open to hearing all voices as distinct yet interrelated, and intends to clarify the truth of emerging social realities. Both are an intentional shift from “doing to” a person in mental extremes to “being with” the person with one’s embodied, responsive presence. This shift in stance frees the therapists’ awareness to be more in the on-going process of communication, rather than fixed on preconceived goal ideas of what should and shouldn’t happen. Both Windhorse and Open Dialogue share an abiding conviction in the inherent health in all people. This provides trustworthy ground for shared open inquiry that helps everyone involved to change and grow toward health.

Thank you for your interest in the Windhorse Journal. Our team hopes you find this podcast and paper engaging and stimulating. Initially, you may feel you are passively absorbing the information and emotional energy of the five of us from a distance. As you go on, you may begin to naturally resonate in the dialogue field with us. We are all then changed by this encounter.

May we listen well and read well,

Jeffrey Fortuna

Dear Listeners,

Welcome to this podcast, which is part 2 of Co-Presence: The Legacy of R.D. Laing. Again, our group of distinguished guests includes Nita Gage, Michael Thompson, Fritjof Capra, and Jeff Fortuna. If you’ve been fortunate to already hear part 1, you know you’re in for another feast of the mind and heart.

I had the good fortune to meet “Ronnie” Laing in 1987, while he was in Boulder as a guest lecturer at Naropa University. Though he was obviously brilliant, I didn’t really understand Laing’s impact on the field of western psychology until meeting Michael Thompson in 2015, when he invited us to the conference that he, Nita, and Fritjof had organized at the Esalen Institute—titled Laing in the 21st Century. My immediate and unmistakable experience of that gathering was that I’d just walked into a group of people that felt like a family I was meeting for the first time. I also had to laugh to myself, wondering where I was when the brains got passed out.

While just scratching the surface of his profundity, the atmosphere that Nita, Michael, and Fritjof created was an actual transmission of Laing’s mind and work: the spirit of open inquiry, passionate interest in ideas, high-octane intellectual discourse, a wide bandwidth that runs the gamut from ancient Greek thought to cutting-edge work with psychedelics, all moving fluidly from in-the-moment personal experience to societal and large system perspectives.

Capping it all off, this conference was held at Esalen, which meanders along the beautiful Pacific cliffs at Big Sur. Now having become a yearly event, these conferences embody the atmosphere Laing attempted to create in his therapeutic work—according to those who knew him well—including never missing the point that having fun is part of expanding our understanding of mind and how the world works.

A core element in the Laing Conference atmosphere is the acceptance of how we all, maybe especially Laing himself, naturally experience sanity and neurosis; it’s simply an aspect of being human. As part of that last point, “othering” someone for having extreme state experience is not just failing to understand mind and confused mental states, but it’s actually a deeply violent act. Beyond that, our family structures, society, and world politics are at least as confused and violent, but it’s what we’ve become familiar with, thus being “normal.” Being well ahead of his time, Laing was at times quite tortured with his insights. Even so, he always remained passionately interested in shaking the world out of its sleepy acceptance of “insanity and violence as normal.” Though not always easy to tolerate for those around him, raising awareness—attempting to wake the world up—was Laing’s way of expressing love and compassion for the world. 

Listening to this podcast conversation will offer a small glimpse into the legacy of R.D. Laing. I hope you follow your curiosity further into the individual work of Nita, Michael, Fritjof, and Jeff—all available on their websites. And if you really want to treat yourself, I highly encourage attending one of their conferences at Esalen. May it have as much of a transformative effect on you as it’s had on me.

Thanks for tuning in, and happy listening.