Window Treatment Marketing Pros

Guest Profile: Brandon Moss

Brandon Moss, CEOBrandon Moss is the son of founder Mike Moss and now leads a nearly 50-year-old window treatment business as CEO. He carries forward his father’s commitment to quality and customer service while guiding the company through the changing expectations of today’s Florida homeowners.

Under Brandon’s leadership, the business continues to evolve by modernizing systems, adapting marketing strategies, and embracing innovation, all while staying rooted in affordability, trust, and service excellence.

Brandon brings a valuable perspective on generational leadership, balancing tradition with change, and running a mature business in a competitive, fast-moving market.

Other Notes/Links:

Website: Blinds & Shutters by Discount Mike

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TRANSCRIPT

William Hanke (00:01)
Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes. Today’s conversation is part of our quarterly series where we step back and talk about what’s happening right now in the window treatment industry, what’s changing and what business owners should be paying attention to this quarter. My name is Will Hanke and today I’m joined with

Brandon Moss, CEO of a nearly 50 year old window treatment business.

Brandon represents the next generation of leadership.

balancing longstanding values with realities of today’s homeowners and modern marketing. In this episode, we’ll dig into how legacy businesses adapt, what Brandon is seeing in the market right now, and the lessons other owners can take into the rest of this year. Brandon, thank you for being on today.

Brandon (00:51)
Hey, Will good to see you, you handsome little fellow, you.

William Hanke (00:54)
I appreciate that. ⁓ Fantastic having you on. I always enjoy our conversations. Tell me what it was like stepping into a leadership role in a business that your father built.

Brandon (00:59)
Yes.

So a little about my background for the listeners. My wife and I own a manufacturing company. We are in the dairy manufacturing and we manufacture ice cream.

I’m not really at liberty to tell you the companies that we sell to, but they’re very large. There’s a lot of quality control and safety issues that go into that.

I expect the manufacturers of window treatments to follow those same quality issues. about five years ago, my father had suddenly passed away. He started this blinds company in 1979. I grew up in it. I was literally playing in the basement on Graber G71 tracks. These were my toys.

William Hanke (01:31)
you

you

Brandon (01:48)
My

brother and I built forts with them and I would install on Saturdays. When I went off to college, my father bought me a pickup truck, a toolbox and said, while you’re studying, sell blinds. And that’s what I did. ⁓ At some point after college, I went back down to South Florida, worked with my father and his store for a little bit and decided, you know what?

William Hanke (02:04)
nice.

Brandon (02:13)
I don’t want to do this. Let me get out of this business. I came back to central Florida and my wife and I built this factory that makes ice cream. So when my father had passed away, we were closing things up, tying up loose ends and I just fit into it like an old sock, an old glove. It felt comfortable. And my wife took over the ice cream business and I’m rebuilding and relearning this window treatment industry.

William Hanke (02:40)
Nice, nice. So it was always there, but kind of out of mind, I guess. And now.

Brandon (02:46)
Yeah,

I left the industry just as there was consolidation from regional fabricators. And the major brands like Hunter Douglas and Graber were taking over fabrication at their own factories or overseas or, you know, over the borders, whatever they’re doing now.

William Hanke (03:04)
Yeah. What part of the the business that you’re now that you’ve been thrown into maybe voluntarily? What was kind of the hardest part to take ownership on early on?

Brandon (03:17)
I think the pricing strategy has been a real struggle for me. The name of our company is Blinds and Shutters by Discount Mike. And I think that worked in the late 70s and 80s, maybe even going into the 90s. But I think now, unless you want to do high volume on low margin products, there’s not a lot of money in discounting.

I think the consumer is not educated on what a window treatment is, what the product is, what the difference is between a premium brand or an off brand. I argue that 90 % of my customers don’t know the difference between Graber, Hunter Douglas, or ABC Blind Regional Manufacturer. And it means nothing to them. You have to demonstrate it to them. I think…

William Hanke (03:59)
Right.

Brandon (04:06)
You know, I was going off of some advice from some of my father’s old friends and people in the industry. And we had set some pretty high margins. We were losing sales, then we lowered it. And we’re trying to find a happy medium between, you know, 48 % and 60 % for every job, which is difficult sometimes. And you have to walk away. But I’d rather do quality jobs than a whole lot of little junk. I also personally don’t want to repair things.

William Hanke (04:30)
Yeah, that’s great.

Right. Yeah. I’d say probably 85 90 % of our clients don’t compete on price. We do have some that that is what they stand on is that will beat all the competition. But for the most part they are clients don’t want to compete on price.

Brandon (04:51)
Yeah, you’d rather do quality. I agree with that. I think another big challenge that I had was, ⁓

William Hanke (04:56)
Yeah.

Brandon (05:02)
and I didn’t realize this, but it became abundantly clear to me that there’s only so many fabric manufacturers on the planet and everybody basically has the same. the larger manufacturers, I believe they’re all dropping the ball.

I really do.

I think the I’ve come across a couple of regional manufacturers here in Florida that are doing a really great job. They’re providing good customer service. They’re available to answer questions. The challenge is they use different components. And what happens if they disappear? What happens if they have bad management with their money and they go bankrupt? Their lifetime warranty isn’t worth anything.

William Hanke (05:45)
Right. Yeah, definitely makes sense. think along those lines, your dad started this in 1979, you said.

What were some of the biggest things like pricing and like finding different manufacturers? What were some of the things that you found you needed to modernize along the way?

Brandon (06:03)
So my father was paper and pencil, know, carbon copy invoices went to a customer’s house and had the book, opened it up and sat on their table and went line by line. know, seeing that my father was in business for, you know, 15, 20 years just in central Florida where I am, I’m coming across repeat customers. They call, I go to their house.

We sit down at the kitchen table and they tell me about the conversations they had with my father. your father said this and he did that. My father was very, very entertaining. ⁓

William Hanke (06:35)
Okay.

Brandon (06:41)
My father made friends and joined that sit down. Trust was developed because we’re selling. Trust me, I’m going to take your deposit and I’m actually going to return.

William Hanke (06:51)
Right.

Brandon (06:52)
Join that period. There’s trust.

So there’s something to be said about the old charts where you open up the binder and you find the fabric and you come down and you pick it out and then you add the options to it and have your little calculator and add it all up because that’s the time period where you’re developing the trust. So now that I’ve switched to using the tablet and I’m using ⁓ software that has the pricing built in, I’m losing that.

that natural period to have a face-to-face, eye-to-eye conversation with somebody. So I’m finding myself having to stop and find, I love your dog, your dog is cute, and connect with the client to build that trust.

William Hanke (07:36)
Yeah, yeah, I can see that everything’s a lot faster and more automated, more optimized, but at the same time, you’re missing a piece.

Brandon (07:40)
Bye.

Right. Yeah. I think the technology is fantastic. I embrace it. I’m looking forward to the next wave of technology. I think the consumer is changing. The baby boomers are slowly becoming a consumer that they’re done renovating their homes. at the tail end of their lives. Fixed incomes, they don’t want to spend the money. Generation X, where you and I come from.

William Hanke (07:48)
Yeah.

Brandon (08:14)
We’re now starting to think about retirement and where we’re spending money, but you have the millennials and the newer generations that were built on do it yourself, learn how to do it. And they’re going onto Amazon and they’re finding a shade for $150. And they, when you say the same size windows, 400, 500, 600, they don’t want to buy.

William Hanke (08:37)
Yeah. Definitely makes sense the different markets or segments out there. then trying to, again, trying to build trust with all of them, but definitely in different ways.

Brandon (08:42)
Correct.

Yeah, you have to bring a value. If somebody is calling you to do an estimate and it’s just a discovery, you’re not going to walk away with the sale unless they’re an impulse buyer. If they’re cautious about their budget and they really want to know, it doesn’t matter. You come in there with a $5,000 quote, if that’s a thousand or $2,000 too high, they’re going to go and get other quotes.

If the other quotes are along the same lines of the same quality, the same warranty, and the same products, apples to apples,

your follow-up is going to be the most important. Make sure you get them on the phone. Make sure you’re texting them. Make sure you’re closing the deal as soon as possible. Within three, four, or five days of giving the quote.

William Hanke (09:31)
Isn’t it interesting how that’s always like in sales related calls or training that that’s always something people talk about as the follow up and yet it’s the most ignored piece of a sales relationship.

Brandon (09:46)
Yeah, sometimes it’s really hard to do. You leave a customer’s house. This just actually happened this morning. I spent three, four hours at this house. This is a $2 million home in a very prestigious area in central Florida. The quote was only $14,000. It was very reasonable for some motorized cell shades.

I thought that I was walking out of there. I discounted it heavily. It was going to be my last sale of 2025. It was before the new year. It was like December 29, something like that. And they said, you know, thank you very much. So I sent them a text this morning and immediately she said, can I call you? And we had a whole conversation. She removed 25 % of the shades to lower the bid, but I collected a deposit today. So you just never know.

William Hanke (10:33)
Congrats, that’s great.

Yeah, just from a text message. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. That’s great. So as a disclaimer for the listeners, Brandon is a client of ours, and you’ve been a client of ours for maybe a year and a half now, I believe. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you about marketing, but I didn’t want to set this up.

Brandon (10:37)
That’s it, just the text message. Yeah.

God, it feels like an eternity. I feel like you’re my best friend.

William Hanke (11:00)
From a marketing standpoint, what is really driving growth for you right now?

Brandon (11:04)
I would honestly, I don’t want to blow smoke up your skirt, but yeah, mean,

a good portion of it is the SEO work that you guys have been putting in a really good portion of it. I was really surprised. I understand the power of SEO.

I know how difficult it is to do and maintain and you have to have a good foundation for it, which is why I decided to hire you. I just didn’t want to do it on my own. I don’t have the time to learn it.

Running two complicated businesses is not easy. then, you know, doing the SEO. I stick with there’s only one company that I’m doing print ads with. I also buy a mailing list of people that closed on houses and every Friday we mail out postcards. But other than that, that’s all the marketing we do.

William Hanke (11:54)
Okay. What,

what are those postcards say? Welcome to the neighborhood. Here’s 10 % off.

Brandon (11:59)
⁓

Free paper shades, ⁓ congratulations on your new home, and standard stuff, yeah.

William Hanke (12:09)
Okay, okay. ⁓ Do you know if Florida homeowners are asking different questions today than they were maybe a few years ago?

Brandon (12:17)
You know what’s really frustrating to me? Florida homeowners or Florida builders, they are building sliding glass doors larger and larger, and the manufacturers are not keeping up with single roller shades or sizes that can cover those sliding glass doors.

William Hanke (12:39)
Interesting, okay.

Brandon (12:40)
Yeah, I mean, here in Florida, the clientele, have homes on the lakes. They have beautiful views. They want to see their views. They want to cover those windows up to stop the heat from coming in. But the roller shades, even the verticals, they max out at 144 inches. We’re seeing large sliders at 160 inches, 180 inches, spanning the whole width of these 3,000, 4,000 square foot homes.

it’s getting harder and harder to convince people to have a scene. So yeah, so the first thing that people usually ask is, what do I do about this giant door? My solution is to tell them to paint it.

William Hanke (13:14)
Interesting.

You

okay, that’ll work.

Brandon (13:28)
Yeah.

Let’s see. Again, I left the business and came back. I was in the business, it was wood blinds and faux wood blinds day in and day out. Now it’s roller and solar day in and day out. know, wood blinds are stuff that they had in the apartments. When I was selling and everybody wanted to get rid of their mini blinds, which is what were in the apartments or in the homes in the 80s.

Here in Florida, people want plantation shutters. They don’t want to spend the money. think the marketplace is saturated with so many different types of quality and what do they call them? Trunk slammers that they give it to them close to nothing and those are driving the prices down and it’s becoming harder and harder to compete. But those people don’t last long. They eventually go out of business.

William Hanke (14:23)
All

Yeah, yeah, not unusual for that to happen. I know it specifically in Florida. You mentioned the rollers. Are you doing a lot of exterior lanias, patios and porches? We might call them here in the Midwest.

Brandon (14:40)
I just started learning how to do that. I’m adding that’s a new business for me. I’m learning the brands. I’m learning how to sell it. I have found the market is really saturated. My first day out, so to speak, on a sales appointment, I was up in the villages. was selling a, the villages is a giant sprawling retirement area.

It encompasses four counties in Florida. It’s giant. Thousands and thousands of homes. A lot of people are putting these screens on their garage, these retractable screens. These were previous customers of mine. They called me back. They had three other quotes from three other companies. All three of them were selling them basically the same product for the cost I was buying it at.

William Hanke (15:33)
⁓ wow.

Brandon (15:36)
And that made me do a little research on what’s going on and it’s just a very saturated market.

William Hanke (15:45)
Yeah. Yeah. So is, is there anything you’re doing around the pricing side of things to help with it?

Brandon (15:50)
Well, I found another manufacturer. Yeah,

William Hanke (15:54)
Okay.

Brandon (15:55)
I found a local regional manufacturer that instead of a national manufacturer that was able to save some costs. But yeah, there are people giving it away.

William Hanke (16:05)
All right. So that’s a, that’s a good point to, find somebody local. Maybe you’re not paying for the delivery costs, the shipping to land it, that, that type of thing. Got it. Got it.

Brandon (16:14)
Correct. Correct.

William Hanke (16:17)
Is there anything that, that you’ve stopped doing because it just doesn’t work anymore?

Brandon (16:22)
Anything that I stopped doing, that’s interesting. I think I stopped measuring incorrectly because when you measure incorrectly, it costs you a lot of money. No, I’m just kidding. ⁓ I don’t know. I stopped a bunch of advertising because I was just everywhere in all these magazines and it just didn’t make sense. ⁓

William Hanke (16:45)
Yeah. Do you think that was a result

of your dad? Just a little bit more of the old school. You have to be on the yellow pages and you got to do all these other physical things.

Brandon (16:54)
Yeah,

I may have made a mistake after my dad had passed and I consolidated all of my vendors to basically two. I went with my gut instinct and said, I’m going all in on Graber. I’m Graber Springs industry, everything that they have, I’m learning, I’m going to master. You know, every manufacturer has different

thresholds and deductions and motor types and memorizing it all is almost impossible. You can’t have Post-it notes on your tablet to tell you what to do.

William Hanke (17:29)
Sure.

Brandon (17:35)
So, so I stopped selling every single brand, which was hard. I think, you know, letting go of Hunter Douglas was, one of the most difficult things for me because I know working with designers, they sometimes want the Hunter Douglas product. And I, I just, I wasn’t going to pay the money for it. My personal experience was my father passed away and we were running around repairing nothing but Hunter Douglas products. It was exhausting.

So I decided, you know, it was, you know, just after COVID, there was no sales rep in the area. I think we went through four different sales reps since my father passed away. And I just had enough with it. And the people that they’re hiring as a sales rep for these national companies, you know, my dog knows more than them.

William Hanke (18:25)
Fair enough.

Brandon (18:29)
In some cases, I mean, obviously there’s some seasoned reps out there that know a lot, but in my opinion, someone who had to relearn and had a lot of questions, I need to pick up the phone and ask a question right now. My sales rep needs to be available for me and has to have the answers. If they don’t have the answers, they have to be able to call and find the information. And it was very frustrating. I mean, even Graber is the same way.

the experts sometimes don’t even have the right answers or customer service contradicts you. And I don’t mean to put anybody down, but there’s so much detail that goes into this. They need to find a better way to organize it so that it’s at our fingertips.

William Hanke (19:12)
So do you find yourself doing a lot of fact checking? guess just even though you’re getting answers, you almost have to get two answers to make sure, you know, like a second opinion.

Brandon (19:20)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. I would call my rep and, or I would call customer service and then follow up with my rep and then find out what’s going on. Graber just started a couple of months ago, this text to customer service. It’s fantastic. It’s absolutely fantastic because before I would be on hold for 20, 30 minutes waiting for somebody to answer the phone. Now I text within five minutes, they get back to me and

And I’ve really enjoyed that service. I it’s one of the best things that Graber has done. So I really commend them. In my manufacturing business, we manufacture food. Let me kind of go off topic here, if that’s okay with you. We manufacture food and we’re highly regulated. So I have a lab in my factory that we take the product off the manufacturing line. We test it for coliforms and bacteria.

William Hanke (19:53)
that’s great. Okay. Yeah.

Brandon (20:16)
If it doesn’t pass the safety, goes away. Even the raw materials, everything is tested and verified. Somebody could get sick, somebody could die. The quality is really, really important. ⁓ We have ⁓ temperatures that have to be calibrated to verify and validate that everything is done correctly. So many things.

And it’s mind blowing to me that a blinds manufacturer can’t put the correct number of brackets in a box.

It’s just mind blowing.

mean, if we make a mistake, someone gets sick. If they make a mistake, it’s, I’m sorry. So I feel like those inflated prices that we’re paying from these national manufacturers, our orders are paying for their mistakes. So the smaller dealers, you know, my dad used to always say, make sure you’re making the least 50 % of your money so you can cover any…

Mistakes that you may have made I feel like Graber is doing that Hunter Douglas is doing that even Norman’s probably doing that So if a shade cost them, you know 50 bucks They’re charging us a hundred because they know they might have to remake it because of all the mistakes they make That’s my theory. Do I have proof? ⁓ But anyways, so the technology and trying to find information for my manufacturing company

William Hanke (21:27)
Yeah.

Brandon (21:37)
I had coded my own program. I had coded an ERP that helps us work in the exact way that we work using AI agents. It took me a year and a half to put that program together, but I did it. And now my company is running smoother because the information is at our fingertips. I’m not promising anything, but I’ve been experimenting with a blinds AI agent.

And what’s really kind of neat about it is I can put all of the price charts into an AI agent, provide the AI agent through a coded form of customers’ measurements, and it can spit out a quote. But what it can also do, what I’m hoping it can also do, what I’m leaning towards is messages. So for example, let’s say you put something in at 84 inches wide.

or 84 and a quarter inches wide. And the AI agent will be smart enough to know that you are at a price point break on that chart and can give you a warning. And then you could say, okay, I’m an eighth of an inch over. Can I get away? Do they have side panels? Can I save them money by reducing the size of this shade to get the job? Or can I manipulate the price a certain way? The other thing that it should be able to do, let’s say you’re quoting Graber.

It should be able to simultaneously suggest fabrics or products that other manufacturers have and give you simultaneous quotes instantly to offer the client other options.

William Hanke (23:16)
Sure. Yeah. And all that will pop up on your tablet. I mean, conceptually. Yeah.

Brandon (23:20)
Instantly, instantly,

it should take 10 seconds once you tell it to do it. This is important because the customers are getting information while you’re there. You’re measuring their houses, they’re on their tablet looking at Amazon, they’re looking over your shoulders, seeing the measurements. mean, because they’re not engaged in what you’re saying, they’re looking for the best price. So you need to be prepared for that. And I’m hoping that this works. My preliminary tests worked.

are working. The AI agent is doing it. It’s literally creating quotes. So what that means is these older software, these older quoting technologies are database driven. You don’t have to be database driven for an AI agent. You take a PDF of the pricing, put it into the AI agent, and it reads it, just as if you would.

William Hanke (23:58)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, definitely really cool. I love the AI play. I think customers are going to understand, you know, kind of what you’re doing from that standpoint. ⁓ It probably works to your detriment when it comes to back to what you said earlier about not spending a ton of time with them when it comes to the pricing piece, because you can because things are a lot more instant. ⁓ But that’s the way it’s going. You know, like it or not, right?

Brandon (24:29)
Right.

Yeah, the more, the faster you can measure, the more accurate you can measure. I know I’ve been looking into some Bluetooth solutions and things like that. I’m not quite comfortable with it yet, but I’d like to learn more and see how they work. getting accurate ⁓ laser measurements faster and quicker provides more time to spend time to have a conversation with your client. I think

William Hanke (25:04)
Yep. Yeah, definitely

makes sense. Right. Along the lines of customer expectations, do you see how or how have they shifted when it comes to service, speed, communication?

Brandon (25:06)
I think that’s the key. Be their friend.

Here in Florida, we have lot of retirees. So the response to the technology depends on where they are in their technical life, so to speak. Younger people enjoy text messaging. I don’t think texting and emailing is ⁓ the only form of communication. I you need to make a phone call.

If they don’t answer, then you text. But it makes life easier, especially when we automate it through like lead boomerang. It’s finding that happy medium of not pissing them off and constantly being, texting them, hey, are you gonna buy it? Are gonna buy it? Are you gonna buy? ⁓ But sometimes, there’s the old adage, you keep asking until they say no. But you just don’t, you don’t wanna piss somebody off.

William Hanke (26:11)
Yeah. Yeah. But you also want to stay top of mind, right? Yeah.

Brandon (26:14)
Correct. Correct.

William Hanke (26:17)
What advice would you give to other business owners who are trying to kind of meet some of these changing expectations in today’s ⁓ industry?

Brandon (26:27)
Keep your eye on the ball. Don’t put your faith in one supplier. Make sure you’re spread out and look for the changes. There are a lot of changes happening out there. There’s new product developments. There’s really nice fabrics that are coming to the table, operating systems that are better than the national brands.

It’s the national brands don’t mean anything. They really don’t anymore. And it’s unfortunate.

William Hanke (26:54)
I’m seeing that sentiment on various Facebook groups and things like that, that people are pulling away from them in some obviously more drastically than others. ⁓ But good for the local US-made manufacturers that are out there that now have maybe a little bit more of a chance.

Brandon (27:15)
If they’re organized, they can compete. My Jedi instinct is saying, Graber is moving in the right direction. My Jedi instinct is saying that they are really trying to fix this.

But they’ve got 5,000 people working for them. It’s going to take time. Unfortunately, I’ve got money to make and bills to pay. I have to do what I have to do for my business now. But I’m always…

I’m watching the improvements that they’re making. I wish the larger companies didn’t treat the dealer system as if they didn’t need us. Or I wish

the dealers in the dealer system understood that they need us to survive. Because without us, they’re not moving any product.

William Hanke (27:59)
Sure.

Right.

Do you see any trends over the next 12 months that are going to disrupt a little bit more?

Brandon (28:09)
I think, without getting political, I think that the world right now feels like we’re not standing on stable ground. And many people are uncertain of the direction that the world is going, which means that they are uncertain on how they’re living their life and the choices that they’re making. So people that were in a spending

mode three, four years ago, willing to redecorate or remodel or buy new homes, that might be on pause right now. So I think you just have to pay attention to your community, see what’s happening. Know the builders in the area, know, like Lennar here in Orlando, they sometimes offer blinds, sometimes they don’t. And we all know the builder grade blinds are awful. But you know, you market around that.

William Hanke (29:02)
you

Yeah. Your comment about the people maybe pulling back a little bit. Do you also see that because of COVID, right, there was like this drastic everybody in the world is suddenly remodeling because they have nothing else to do, including me. You know, that was what my wife, hey, why is that wall that color? Right. You know. So are we seeing a downturn because of that also that there’s a lot of people that don’t

Need to be in that mode now?

Brandon (29:36)
I don’t know. I can’t really answer that intelligently because at the beginning of COVID, I wasn’t in this business. So I don’t really know. I know that my father was extremely busy during COVID before he had passed. And I know that we had 20, 30 orders pending to be installed when he did die. And that was 2021. So I was at the tail end of COVID.

William Hanke (30:01)
Yeah.

Brandon (30:02)
⁓ So I don’t know what was happening at the beginning of it. I will say that ⁓ I don’t know what happened in the last, I would say three, four months, but we’ve just been skyrocketing in sales. It’s really strange.

William Hanke (30:06)
Sure, fair enough.

That’s great. ⁓ I mean, I guess that could be part of the fact that people are heading that direction, maybe. And it’s more, yeah, it’s more on their mind, right? we need to get this place fixed up.

Brandon (30:28)
Yeah, hopefully.

It could also be that they just want to give me money to get out of their house. Like the sooner I pay this guy, the sooner he leaves.

William Hanke (30:38)
Ha

You will stop asking questions and go away.

Brandon (30:44)
Apparently

you’re not supposed to go into the refrigerator and take a beer while you’re at their house. The trust only goes so far.

William Hanke (30:51)
Oh, That’s great. So Brandon, thank you for being on today. I appreciate it. I want to just do a couple rapid fire questions to wrap this up and and get you on your way. Is that OK? I know you’ve got an appointment to get to.

Brandon (31:03)
Okay.

That’s fun.

William Hanke (31:12)
What is one business habit that you would swear by? And obviously, if it’s related to window treatments, that’s great. But if it’s ice cream related, I’m fine with that as well.

Brandon (31:21)
Always improve your communication.

William Hanke (31:25)
Okay, always with the cut.

Brandon (31:26)
Yeah. In other words,

with the customer, with the installer, with the people setting the appointments, always improve it. So if I’m finding that my appointments are not in the, you know, communicate, hey, this is what I need or hey installer, you know, read the installer form. This is, this is what’s happening with this shade.

William Hanke (31:45)
I like that. That’s fantastic. What is the decision that felt risky when you kind of jumped into this, but it’s paid off?

Brandon (31:52)
lead boomerang, working with you. I was nervous at first, but it has paid off tenfold.

William Hanke (31:58)
I’m glad your expectations were low. Sounds like that’s fantastic. Yeah, same for my wife. I mean, same kind of situation there as well.

Brandon (32:00)
Ha ha!

I hear you.

William Hanke (32:14)
What’s what’s one thing that helps you reset clearly outside of work?

Brandon (32:18)
⁓ I like to smoke meat. I have a offset smoker, which means I actually build the fire myself. I don’t do this pellet nonsense with a computer. This is caveman barbecue. And, you know, it takes me two days. I prepare the meat and then the following day I start a fire and I smoke, you know.

William Hanke (32:23)
Okay.

Brandon (32:43)
tons of meat over the course of a weekend, know, Saturday and Sunday, ribs, turkey, brisket, and then, you know, freeze what we don’t. I usually eat it while I’m cooking it. That’s the, you know, the hard part. ⁓ But yeah, I enjoy that. ⁓ you know, it lets some air breathe into all of the distractions of work. And then you have a clear head on Monday and a full belly.

William Hanke (32:56)
you

Yeah,

that’s great. Let me know the next time you’re doing that so I can plan my next trip to Central Florida.

Brandon (33:15)
Anytime, you know, when you’re fishing in the Keys, just, you know, bring some of that dolphin up to my house here in Orlando and we’ll throw it on the grill.

William Hanke (33:25)
Fair enough, fair enough. All right, one last question. What are you most excited about over the next 12 months?

Brandon (33:33)
I’m really excited about learning how to sell awnings. I think that’s going to be a fun addition to my business and I want to learn it.

William Hanke (33:41)
Okay.

fantastic. We’ve got a good amount of our clients that are adding on awnings as an exterior option.

Brandon (33:51)
Yeah, I think they’re great products. I think it’s going to add a substantial amount of revenue to our business.

William Hanke (33:58)
You’ve got a couple good manufacturers in the Florida area too.

Brandon (34:02)
Yeah, I’ve been looking. I’ve been looking.

William Hanke (34:05)
Yeah, very good.

Awesome. Well, Brandon, thank you again for being on today. I appreciate your insight. I appreciate a little bit of history about how you got thrown into this and some of your ideas on what you think is going to happen next. Appreciate your time. ⁓ If anybody wants to reach out for other questions, what would be the best way for them to do so?

Brandon (34:26)
they can email me at my email address. I don’t know if you post it. [email protected]

William Hanke (34:34)
Perfect. We’ll put that in the show notes, of course, below if anybody wants to reach out and ask you some other questions specifically about your brisket ⁓ or the ribs recipe.

Brandon (34:43)
Yeah, shoot me an

email. I’d love to tell you how I do it.

William Hanke (34:48)
Yeah.

Well, thanks again. I appreciate it.

Brandon (34:52)
Thank you. Will

William Hanke (34:53)
So that wraps up today’s episode of Marketing Panes. Big thanks to Brandon Moss for sharing his perspective on leading a legacy business, adapting to market changes and staying grounded while evolving. If you found this conversation helpful, share it with another business owner in the industry and be sure to follow Marketing Panes for more real conversations like this one.

Thanks for listening. We’ll see you in the next episode.

Guest Profile: Wayne Feltman

Wayne Feltman is an accomplished sales management professional that has built a long-term career with VELUX Skylights, the world’s leading Skylight and Roof Window Manufacturer. Wayne started his career with VELUX as a territory sales representative and served in this capacity for about 4 years before advancing into a District Sales Management role overseeing the Eastern Great Lakes District for more than 20 years and most recently moved into a Business Development Management role responsible for the growth and development of the company’s Skylight Specialist Program across a 15-state area comprised of the greater Midwest.

Prior to VELUX, Wayne grew up working alongside his father in the family’s retail hardware business but also spent some summer months working for his grandfather, a residential homebuilder. Wayne graduated from Ball State University with a Bachelor of Science from the university’s nationally ranked Business Management and Entrepreneurship Program and while in college, had co-founded and operated a Landscape Management Company giving him a combination of academic and a first-hand real-world experience on what it takes to start and run a successful small business.

Through some early exposure to skylights, Wayne developed a passion for Skylights and Sun Tunnels due to their unique ability to transform space and bring an abundance of daylight and fresh air into the built environment where people live, work and play.

Other Notes/Links:

Velux Website: VeluxUSA.com
Contact: Reach out through the Velux website to connect with your local representative.

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke. Today we’re exploring a powerful but often overlooked opportunity, Skylight Shades. If you’ve ever thought skylights were just an architectural feature or dismissed shades as a niche product, you’ll want to stick around.

My guest today is Wayne Feltman, a seasoned sales management professional with deep expertise in new business development, sales training, and residential construction. With a strong background in roofing materials, skylights, and solar hot water systems, he now leads efforts to expand the reach of Velux, skylights, and sun tunnels.

In his current role, Wayne is passionate about empowering entrepreneurial minded individuals and build businesses that transform homes and lives with daylight and fresh air through a franchise like program that delivers turnkey success without the fees. Wayne, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Wayne Feltman (01:08)
Will, great to be here. Thanks for having us.

Will Hanke (01:10)
Yeah, I really appreciate it. So Wayne, could you start by giving the listeners a quick introduction and how, tell us how you got started in the industry.

Wayne Feltman (01:18)
Sure, absolutely. So I probably should start by just saying I’m based out of Indianapolis, Indiana, born and raised. I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs. My dad owned hardware stores. So kind of grew up doing the retail hardware thing. And through that, we interacted with a lot of trades. My grandfather was a builder and spent some summers working with him, kind of being the runner and the clean up guy. that did lead to me getting into landscaping. My brother and I had started and ran a landscaping business for a number of years.

I tried that, but ⁓ ultimately I had decided I wanted to go to college to be an architect. Initially went to school to be an architect, quickly found out in early 90s that a lot of those guys were struggling to find jobs. So changed my major. I was going to try to get a minor in business anyway, but ended up switching to going full-time business and entrepreneurship and management. Finished with my business degree.

I continued to run the landscape management business part-time with my brother for a bit, but tried a few different things. Just to give you an idea, the diversity of my background was a stockbroker financial advisor for about a year, then got into computer system sales for about two to three years. And I was chasing the almighty dollar like a lot of us do coming out of college and just wasn’t happy, wasn’t enjoying what I was doing. And through some early experiences,

with Skylights through my parents who had built or renovated a few homes where we incorporated Skylights. I knew a little bit about Velux and Skylights and saw that they were hiring a territory representative, applied for that position and had to do a pretty hard sales job on that. The hiring manager asked why a stockbroker turned computer sales guy turned landscaper wanted to sell Skylights for a living, but he took a chance on a kid.

and hired me on and I was the Indiana Kentucky sales and territory rep for about four years. So that was kind of my ⁓ humble beginnings in terms of how I came to Velux and the rest is history as they say.

Will Hanke (03:15)
Wow, it’s always interesting to hear people’s backstories about the random things they did that really had nothing to do with where they landed. Love that.

Wayne Feltman (03:22)
For sure, for sure. But it

really was some early exposures though. mean, had it not been, my parents had built a, well, the first exposure really was a lakeside condo, a real narrow kind of three story condo that we had built back in the 80s, early 80s actually. And they incorporated some skylights, vending skylights. And this was just a summer getaway for my parents. We didn’t vacation, that was our vacation, so to speak. Cause when you’re in retail, you’re seven, 24 seven.

Will Hanke (03:49)
Yeah

Wayne Feltman (03:52)
But we’d go up there and you know dad would have us go upstairs and open up the skylights to cool the place down because in the summer when we’d head up there be really hot ⁓ So that was my first kind of all-cott exposure at the time. You know, didn’t realize how relevant that would be in my life ⁓ And then several years later, we acquired a log cabin in southern, Indiana That was my grandfather something he had built back in the 60s And my mom wanted to always wanted to add a sunroom off to the back of it. So we hired a contractor

And to his credit, he said, once we had this sunroom off the back of this house, we’re going to cut off the vertical windows going into that kitchen and dining area. And it’s going to get really dark. And to his credit, he said, I highly recommend we add some skylights not only over the kitchen area, but into the sunroom. And of course, we were pretty much on board with it because of our previous experience with skylights. But it was with that remodeling project that I really came to understand the value and power of skylights. it totally, and this is a dark log cabin.

And it just totally transformed the space. ⁓ And we went on to add skylights to the boathouse, to a gazebo, to a detached garage. I definitely live and breathe it these days, and we practice what we preach.

Will Hanke (04:59)
Yeah, so you’ve been with the company more than two decades. What’s kept you excited about Skylights all these years?

Wayne Feltman (05:05)
Yeah, you know, when I first hired on, like I said, I was a territory rep for Indiana and Kentucky and really enjoyed the job, moved up into a district management role for about 20 years. And then here the last few years, I’ve been in a business development role across the greater Midwest. So I went from a state and a half to six states as a district manager to now about 15, 16 states. So with those roles comes a different focus.

But really, it’s just the variety of what we do. We interact with every type of trade. So we interact with roofers, builders, architects, remodelers. ⁓ So when you’re doing that variety of interactions, it just never gets boring, quite honestly. And then Velux, the company, I mean, every few years we’re bringing something new to market. It’s a very innovative company, builds quality products. ⁓ So just as you think you got your head around everything that we make and sell, they throw a curveball at us and introduce something new.

I think for all those reasons, know, it’s been 26 years, but I’ll be honest, some of my earlier career or jobs, I should say, seem like they were a lot longer than my 26 years at velux despite only being a year or two.

Will Hanke (06:20)
Yeah. For dealers that are not familiar, what does ventilation and light really mean in practice?

Wayne Feltman (06:27)
Yeah, no, great question. Actually, it’s fundamental to our company and our founding. So actually the name Velux is the root of two Latin words, V-E for ventilation, LUX, the Latin word for light. And just to give you a quick snapshot of the background of the company, mean, our founder was actually a glazing engineer by training and was given the task of converting attic spaces to classrooms. So this was back in 1941. There was a war going on. We’re based in Denmark. We’re a Northern European company.

And they were trying to utilize all the attic space. A lot of buildings were destroyed. But anyway, he was given the task of converting some attic space to classrooms. And at the time, materials were scarce. Resources were scarce. ⁓ And so he came up with an ingenious way of putting a piece of glass ⁓ in the plane of the roof that would pivot and rotate and ventilate ⁓ and daylight the space, make it a functional space. So those are our humble beginnings. But ⁓ we’ve diversified and grown from just that attic room application.

Today we have two core products. have some called roof windows, which are generally within reach applications. So think of like you’re here in the States, the most common applications would be the bonus room above a garage where you got the knee wall and the sloped ceilings. That would be a good application for a roof window that you can walk up within reach. Another one would be like story and a half type home where you’re finishing off your attic space and converting that into space, bedrooms or whatnot. Roof windows can meet egress requirements. But the more traditional application here in the States is what we call a skylight.

And you take your typical home that’s got 8, 9 foot, 10 foot ceilings today. And you got that skylight up in the ceiling, up at a reach. And so the product category is a little bit different. They’re designed for up at a reach applications in use.

But why you would want to skylight? I mean, it really comes down to a couple of things. First, obviously, natural light. You just can’t beat the value of natural light coming into a home. And if you think about it, where we put our artificial lighting, generally it’s on the ceiling through light fixtures.

Why would we do vertical or natural light any different?

And so there’s significant power and effect of bringing in natural light from overhead to skylights. But then there’s the ventilation aspect of it. It’s very powerful to utilize a skylight for natural ventilation. And it’s a scientific kind of concept called the chimney or stack effect. But the reality is heat rises.

So if you open a skylight up high and a window down low, you get this chimney or stack effect or thermal effect. There’s a lot of different names for it. Where that hot air wants to go up and escape through that skylight, you’re bringing in that fresh air through those lower windows. ⁓ In Europe, they call that air conditioning. when mechanical air conditioning came along, we kind of got away from taking advantage of that natural air conditioning effect that skylights can provide. And the good news is now that you know

Will Hanke (09:03)
you

Wayne Feltman (09:15)
society’s becoming more sustainable, we’re getting back to it. ⁓

But so the ventilation aspect is another key reason why skylights are, you know, I think particularly valuable in design and construction. And then the last thing is, is, you know, there’s a lot of areas in your home that you just can’t light with vertical windows, interior spaces, hallways, interior rooms, like closets and whatnot, or you’re trying to maintain privacy.

⁓ And so what’s unique about a skylight, obviously, is you’re bringing in that light from overhead.

And even in an interior room or hallway, you can pipe light in through the attic space, if you will, through a traditional skylight or an alternative product called a tubular skylight or a sun tunnel skylight, which is a very quick and easy way just to bring in light into an interior space. So that’s my quick one, too. I I hopefully gave your listeners a kind of a.

new perspective on the value of skylights. And like I said, it’s not any one. I think it’s a combination of all of the above. Depending on what the design needs are, the space you’re trying to apply the skylights to.

Will Hanke (10:06)
Yeah.

Yeah. Now I know they were big in the seventies and eighties and then they kind of faded for a while. you mentioned that they’re kind of back in style now. What do you think is driving that resurgence?

Wayne Feltman (10:25)
You know, that’s fair and I hear that a lot. what I’d like to say is, ⁓ well,

velux like I we’ve been in the States, actually, we just celebrated 50 years. So we’ve been in the States ⁓ for quite a while. you know, we ride, you know, the economy, obviously, the ups and downs of the economy. But I think it is fair to say that in 70s and the 80s, Skylights were more popular. There were a lot of other vendors, lot of other manufacturers in the game as well.

And our sales have grown year to year. We’ve consistently grown as a company. So daylight and fresh air never goes out of style. And I would argue even skylights really have never gone out of style. What’s changed is a lot of the companies that got into the business in the 70s and 80s that quite frankly were building inferior products that were problematic ended up having problems and they got out of the industry. The quality providers that really designed a quality product.

For the most part, they’ve been a quieter, they’re still in the game. And I think it’s unfortunate because, and I’m talking about the old plastic, tar down bubbles.

You still ask a lot of people today what a skylight is. Their vision of it, especially if they’re older, is the old plastic bubble that you can’t see through, that’s literally tarred down to the roof. And if it started leaking, they just added more tar and then you this ugly bubble on your roof. And I think that did tarnish the industry a little bit. ⁓

Velux, fortunately, has always made a quality product. We’ve always made engineered flashing systems to ensure that they’re watertight. But even our own product wasn’t as forgiving. Meaning if you didn’t do something right, it could come back to bite you and cause problems. And over the years, technology has greatly improved not only our installation processes, but the product itself. ⁓ is it fair to say that it was popular? Well, I think Skylights and the benefits they bring have always been popular. I truly do feel that way.

Will Hanke (12:05)
that.

Wayne Feltman (12:14)
It’s just that the risk reward ratio back in the early days, some of these problematic manufacturers caused people to rethink that, I don’t want to go there. Unfortunately, we’ve been clawing our way back to gain the confidence of consumers and builders, architects, and by and large, most of the folks that are designing today’s homes or building today’s homes ⁓ feel more confident about the product than that earlier generation.

Will Hanke (12:23)
Yeah.

That’s awesome.

So Wayne, most of the listeners for our show are window treatment dealers and awning dealers. They focus mostly on vertical windows. Why should they also be paying attention to skylight shades?

Wayne Feltman (12:52)
Yeah, great question, Will.

Well, believe it or not, about 10 to 20 % of homes have skylights. Now, it varies depending on where you’re at in the country. But on average, like I said, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 to 20%, you get into certain areas. It can be as high as 50 % of homes. Florida, my sister lives in Arizona. There’s a lot of skylights down there in Arizona. Here in the Midwest, where I live, Indianapolis, I would say it’s in the neighborhood of about 20%.

For your window dealers, when they get into a neighborhood, there’s a good chance that if a neighborhood has skylights, there may be a lot of them.

It could be every other home or every home for that matter. ⁓ so if they’re in there doing window treatments and they see that there’s a bunch of skylights and they don’t have some kind of window treatment or shades on them, it’s a great question to ask. Have you ever entertained the idea of adding a shade to your skylights? And quite honestly, Will, it’s been interesting over the years to learn that the average consumer just doesn’t, there’s just not the awareness to know that, ⁓

Velux makes products for their skylights, light control shades and blinds. But also the fact that you can actually just do that. It’s just not intuitive. Being that it’s a sloped piece of glass, you would think it would fall to the interior of the space or hang down and not look very good. But obviously, technology has allowed us to design operable shades that work just fine in a skylight application. And we just need help create more awareness that these shading products exist.

and that you can retrofit them into existing skylights.

Will Hanke (14:21)
love the idea of an easy upsell when you walk into the room. That’s great. What do you think are some of the most common objections or concerns that you would hear from a consumer?

Wayne Feltman (14:33)
Yeah, well, when it comes to skylights, and like I said, if you got a homeowner that’s had a skylight and they’ve lived in that home for years, especially if it’s a great room application, let’s say, whether you watch TV and whatnot, ⁓ certain times of the day and year, there’s a pretty good chance that the sun is shining through that skylight and to where they wish they could control that light. ⁓ So first is just observing that the home has skylights. Second would be asking a few questions, like are there certain times of day or certain times of year where you would benefit, think you would benefit from having a shade?

And I like to start with that because that obviously will probably resonate with most consumers. At some point in time, certain times of the day or certain times of the year, that sunlight’s probably coming in in a way that is making it difficult to see the TV or becomes blinding or whatnot. So I like to start with that. if they’re not really sold on that, I like to change and speak to the energy efficiency side of things. despite the fact and that.

Now, that skylight could be quite an old skylight too. And we’ve got product out there that’s 30, 40 years old still. Old clear glass skylights, old bubble type skylights, they’re not very energy efficient. So first thing is they should probably replace the skylight. Let’s start with that. But if it is even one of our newer skylights, there’s significant energy savings that can be had by adding shades. And that’s an argument that applies to any and every skylight out there.

Will Hanke (15:51)
So Wayne, what is involved in installing a shade in an already installed Velux skylight?

Wayne Feltman (15:57)
Yeah, great question, Will. So the first thing is we want to identify and verify that it is a Velux Skylight and what model type and size. And the good news is Velux has made this pretty easy. I think we spoke to this a little bit. All of our products from really the early 90s on have a silver tag in the lower left-hand corner. On a venting unit, it can be concealed behind the sash where the sash closes down. But we can help you find the tag. ⁓ But the tag tells us when it was produced, what model and type of Skylight is, what size it is. With that information.

You can reach out to Velux or your dealer or if you become a dealer and purchase a shade for that skylight specifically designed for that skylight and the installation process actually is quite easy. So the way our shades ship is that you know, they’re broken down in a box. You would mount a couple clips in the upper right hand corner, upper right and left hand corner, lower right hand corner. So total of four clips. The blind assembly snaps onto the clips up top. You mount a couple rails down both sides.

There’s a couple tensioners that hook within those rail assemblies. ⁓ And then you turn it on and configure it to the remote control. ⁓ And the whole process takes about a half hour. The most difficult process or part of the process is access, right? Getting up on a ladder, getting into that, depending on where that skylight’s located, it may or may not be very easy. But the actual installation process, as I said, is pretty simple. ⁓ First time, it’ll maybe take you 45 minutes to an hour.

Second one, you’ll get it down to that 45 minutes. That third one will be a half hour or less.

Will Hanke (17:26)
So Wayne, what’s the difference between performance of light filtering and room darkening skylight shades?

Wayne Feltman (17:33)
Yeah,

in terms of what velux manufacturers, we do have two dominant or two primary shade types. One is a double pleated room darkening shade. And it’s a honeycomb structure that’s got a foil liner on the inside. And that is by far our most energy efficient shade, just to give an idea of the performance values. And it varies based on the size of the window, obviously, because we’re talking about unit performance overall.

But the room darkening performance value in terms of U-value improvement is from 24 to 45%. So pretty significant. Now our light filtering shade’s a little bit different. That’s a single pleat translucent material. a fabric material that does let the light pass through. Gives you a nice soft, softens the light coming through. But because it’s not a honeycomb structure, it doesn’t have that foil liner, it’s not as good in terms of energy improvements. And the range on that’s from 9 to 28%.

Will Hanke (18:03)
Okay. Yeah.

Wayne Feltman (18:25)
So on the high end, we’re talking about 45 % U-value improvement with the room darkening up to 28 % with the light filtering. So it’s quite a bit of a difference there. Solar heat gain coefficient, that’s the other aspect of this. So U-value is like at night, if you were to close your shade and it’s really cold outside, how much of that insulation value that shade adds. Solar heat gains more that sun, direct sun, and how much heat is coming through that window and through that shade material warming up your space.

Will Hanke (18:36)
Nice.

Wayne Feltman (18:54)
And the room darkening, up to a 23 % improvement in terms of solar heat gain coefficient. And then the light filtering, up to 16 % improvement. regardless of which option you go with, there is benefit for sure. But the room darkening definitely has the benefit on the U-value, which is really where you’re going to save some money on your heating and cooling cost.

Will Hanke (19:15)
I like that. So ⁓

we’ll go ahead and address the elephant in the room that you mentioned earlier on. ⁓ Skylights used to have a reputation for leaks and being hard to control. How has technology changed with that over the years?

Wayne Feltman (19:29)
Yeah, great question. And earlier I alluded to it. I mean, there were a lot of inferior products sold on the marketplace back in the 70s and 80s. And it’s the old tar down, right? And I’m talking about the plastic bubbles that you would literally put a bead of caulk or roof cement around your opening, slap that thing in it, put more tar on it, and slap the shingles into it, and literally hope it didn’t leak before you got off the roof.

And the reality is the sealants weren’t very good back then. On a roof, got dissimilar materials, expansion and contraction. It was just a matter of time, generally speaking, before those kind of products, especially in a cold winter type climate, would start getting you problems.

I’m proud to say Velux has always made and engineered what we call a step flashed product. It’s the same way you install a dormer, a chimney on your house. You weave metal step tins in with your shingles. And it’s a dry installation, no tars, cocks or adhesives.

and installed properly with vapor barriers, these things are designed to last the life of your roof. And so going back to our founding, we’ve always prided ourselves on making those engineered flashing systems as an integral component to our skylight system.

That being said, even ours wasn’t very forgiving if you didn’t step flash it right. If you didn’t apply the underlayment or the vapor barrier, you can get some condensation issues, and it would cause some problems.

So believe that, gosh, it’s been almost 16 years now. But back in 2010, we redesigned our product line. And we came out with what we branded the No Leak Skylight. And with that, we designed in some redundant layers of protection so that even those little things that were causing troubles for our own product, we kind of engineered out. So now you get our Deckmount Skylight, for example, comes with an integrated deck seal that seals down to the deck and seals off that rough opening.

We provide an adhesive underlayment in the box, which is a vapor barrier, ice and water shield, that wraps the skylight. And then you apply our engineered flashing system. And those three redundant layers of protection, we call it, guarantee a leak-proof installation. In fact, we put a 10-year no-leak warranty on the product. And that’s product and labor. So we wanted to do what we could to bring back confidence in the marketplace. Like said, this was 2010, so going on 15, 16 years ago.

And by and large, it’s worked. People now feel confident that we’ve got a long track record now of showing that this product is bulletproof. So that’s kind how we brought confidence back to the marketplace, to answer your question. And like I said, if you ever did have a problem with one of our products, we’ve got a team of people across the country that if you’ve got a problem with the Velux guy, it’s a Velux problem. We’re going to take a look at it, make sure we can figure out what’s going on.

Will Hanke (22:05)
Awesome. The other big question that would probably come up in my mind is around durability, especially giving their direct exposure to sunlight. How have you guys used technology for that?

Wayne Feltman (22:17)
Yeah, great question. And this is where there’s been a lot of improvements in the technology as well. And there’s two ways I can tackle this question. One is just speaking to the glass and how glass has evolved over time. So for example, when we first started producing skylights in the United States in the late 70s, early 80s, clear glass was the norm. It was insulated glass, but it was a piece of clear glass over clear glass. 90 % of everything would come through, 90 % of the heat.

90 % of the UV rays, which is ultraviolet rays. And that’s what would cause damage. mean, ultraviolet rays, fades, tables, carpets, chairs, it’s damaging.

We were the first company in the industry in 1995 with our second generation product to add low E-glasses standard to our product lineup, which was a very smart decision and really, I think, propelled Velux to become the domestic leader in skylights.

And then fast forward to 2010, we moved to the third generation of low-E, what we call low-E 3. And just give you an idea how far it’s come. 99.9 % of the UV rays is blocked out with this glass. And UV rays being the most, all rays, visible light even causes some, I’ll call it damage, if you will. But.

When you’re 99.9 % of your UV is blocked out, you’re ensuring that things like your shades that you’re hanging under your skylights have some longevity to them. And then obviously the days of your tables, carpets, chairs, upholstery, and things like that fading from the exposure are gone as well.

Will Hanke (23:52)
That’s great. So I want to talk a little bit about consumer appeal, home benefits. We can start with solar since we’re kind of already on that track. I know that some of the items that you offer are solar powered, so tell me a little bit more about that.

Wayne Feltman (24:05)
Yeah, kind of back to the evolution of technology. So just to give you a history, like I we’ve always, at least since we’ve been in the States, had shades available and blinds available for our skylights. The early days, they were manual, meaning you would use, and if they’re up out of reach, which they typically are here in the United States, you’d use a rod and you would reach up and hook a little round hook on the top right-hand corner of your skylight. You would twist it and the shade would go up and down or the Venetian blinds would twist. It worked.

But we’re humans, we’re lazy by nature. The idea of having to get up off the couch, go over and grab that rod and hook this thing 10, 12, 15 feet up isn’t something you were gonna do on a regular basis. And the same is true with opening a skylight if you had a venting skylight. So, a few years later we realized, and again, we do a lot of market research that, hey, people are buying shades but they’re not opening and closing them. They’d stay always open or always closed. So we said, we gotta electrify these.

And so we came up with electric systems that made these, now you could go to a wall remote ⁓ and it was a low voltage system. So you had wires behind the wall that would go up to that shade or to that venting skylight and you would push a keypad on the wall and it would open and close your shades or open and close your skylight. It was great, worked well. Problem is how do you retrofit that into an existing home where you got to run wires? So there were challenges there. Now new construction, we had pretty high adoption and guys were embracing the technology.

But it was really as we were looking into our third generation product, we said, we just got to go all in on solar and solar technology. So I think it was 2008, and I said it was 2010 that our current third generation product came out. But 2008, a couple of years prior, we introduced a solar powered shade. And so the way this works is it’s a completely self-contained shade. So the shade literally mounts on the inside of the skylight.

But within that shade assembly is a solar panel and a battery. And the small integrated solar panel charges the integrated battery, and the shade actually works off the battery power. And now it is remote control. So you’ve got a remote control that you can mount anywhere in the room. And it’s a radio frequency remote, so it’s not line of sight. The days of having to point right at it to get it to work are over. So it goes through walls, windows, doors, and whatnot. So you can put that remote pretty much anywhere. And with the touch of a button, now you can operate your shades, which, again,

With that kind of convenience, now you’re going to use your shade when you need to use it and be smart about taking advantage of the benefits of that shade. And the same is true with our operation and functionality of our venting skylights now. We have solar powered venting skylights that work on an exact same kind of principle. Completely separate system from the blind solar panel. It’s got its own self-contained solar panel battery system and can work off the same or multiple remote controls.

Will Hanke (26:50)
Any smart home applications?

Wayne Feltman (26:53)
Absolutely. our current shades and skylights ship standard with a basic remote. Basic remote pretty much being a stop, up, and down button. And that’s true of the shade and the skylight. Now there is an upgrade you can make. It’s called our touch remote. Now the touch remote allows you to control multiple skylights with a single remote. And it also has some basic programmability. So it has a timer function. So if you had, for example,

a venting skylight in your bathroom and you wanted to open it up while you’re showering to let the steam out, you could set the timer for 30 minutes. It’ll open, open for 30 minutes, on, actually close. So that’s kind of step two. Step three then would be we have a gateway that we sell that now allows your shade to connect to the internet. So you download an app and now via your mobile device, you can control your skylight shades or skylight venting skylights, which is pretty cool.

And then the ultimate in technology is something we call Velux Active. And this is really where we’re trying to take things. And the idea behind Velux Active is the skylight is now smart. It’s working on behalf of you to improve your indoor climate in a number of respects. So what Velux Active is, is it’s a smart keypad that mounts the wall now that has three sensors built into it, a temperature sensor, a humidity sensor, and a CO2 sensor.

And so you’ve got complete control and programmability over your skylight as well as your shade. So you can say, every day at night, I want my shades to close to save on energy cost in the winter months at installation value. You can program it to do that. The bathroom application I was speaking to in terms of eventing skylight, if you had a velux Active system and this keypad mounted in the bathroom, you hop in the shower, start taking a shower as soon as the humidity levels rise in that bathroom.

it’ll automatically deploy your skylight, open it, naturally evacuate the humidity, and automatically close once the levels return to normal. So Velux Active is a really cool kind of first step in where this technology is going to go. It’s available today, though, which is neat. Like said, we’ve got a number of these skylights down at our lake house or cabin in southern Indiana. Anywhere in the world, I cannot check the status. So now in the winter, if I want to know if the heat’s working, I just check in on my skylights and make sure that the temperature is where it belongs.

But before I

Will Hanke (29:09)
That’s awesome.

Wayne Feltman (29:10)
head down in the summer, I can use my phone and open up all my skylights and cool the cabin off 20, 30 degrees before we get down there in a hot summer months. ⁓ So pretty cool technology. Now, if I wanted to, could act with the velux Active. I could let the system just run itself. For example, the sunroom application, when the sunroom heats up, I could have a parameter set where, when I reach this set point, this temperature, I want my skylights to open and cool this place off. And when it cools down, automatically close.

Will Hanke (29:19)
That’s nice.

Wayne Feltman (29:36)
Because we’re not there, don’t utilize, when we’re there, we’ll utilize that technology, but when I’m away, we’re more just using it for remote access and control.

Will Hanke (29:44)
Right,

yeah, yeah, very cool. I’ve always loved this part.

Wayne Feltman (29:46)
But yeah, these are things that the

average consumer doesn’t know exist today. like I said, one of the things that changed with COVID for us, and it’s really changed our product program as well, is instead of laying our people off, we decided we were going to start doing virtual consultations. And up until COVID, most of our interactions as reps and as a company were with contractors, roofers, builders, remodelers.

And today, generally, it’s the roofer that installs our product. ⁓ And that’s where our interactions kind of were. But with COVID, we said, you know what? We’re going to, on our website, give consumers the opportunity to talk to a guy like me. And if they’ve got an old Skylight they’re messing with, wanting to replace, or if they’re doing a sunroom addition or something, why would you want to add a Skylight to that and have a virtual consultation? And what was interesting is when our reps or a knowledgeable individual that understands all this technology and the benefits of Skylights and the benefits of this technology got involved,

that homeowner not only would incorporate a bunch of skylights, but they would incorporate the technology that is available. They would almost always buy the shade. They would almost always go to a venting skylight. Whereas before COVID, they were dealing with a roofer or a contractor that may or may not have had much knowledge of the benefits of adding that shade. And so our shade ratio historically was about 10 to 20%. With COVID, like said, when we were tracking our projects, we were in that 75, 80 % threshold.

Will Hanke (31:13)
everybody’s

home.

Wayne Feltman (31:14)
Yeah,

so we said there’s something to this. So we hired an outside research group called the ⁓ company by the name of Cantar, said, hey, here’s what we’re seeing. Historically, our sales don’t align with this. Could you do some research into this and make sure that we’re not missing something that we think is going on here? And we did. And obviously, the Cantar research came back very much that consumers want shades, in fact, that we’re willing to pay for them. ⁓ And the reality is it was an awareness issue.

And sometimes the contractor was maybe a hurdle for us to get past because, you know, what roofer wants to go inside a house and mess with a shade? You know, they generally don’t. so when we kind of had this new found knowledge and understanding that, you know, the majority of consumers actually 90 % is what our research came back with. Not only want to shade, but are willing to pay for it. said, you know what, we need to make this a standard part of our program. So actually this year, April, 2025,

we launched what we call the Velux system. Now we’ve always had a system.

It was a skylight, a flashing kit, and then optional shades and remote controls and things of that nature. Well, today, our core products are deck mount and curb mount products. And we don’t need to get into all the details and the differences there. But our core product lines now come standard with room darkening shades.

Will Hanke (32:26)
Okay.

Wayne Feltman (32:27)
And it was a direct result of that interaction through COVID with consumers.

Will Hanke (32:27)
Very cool.

I love that. So if I’m a window treatment dealer listening today, what’s the first step to add skylight shades to my offerings?

Wayne Feltman (32:39)
Yeah, so great question. And like I said, your customers see a lot of homes. mean, they’re in a lot of different homes. So the first thing is identify homes that have skylights, right? The second thing is they really need to identify what kind of skylight it is. And we can help with that. And I would encourage anybody that’s listening to this that’s interested in learning more about skylights and how they can make money on this opportunity to contact or reach out to us. And let’s put you in touch with your local Velux representative.

We’ve got a rep that covers every state in the country. And what we will do is we’ll come in and do some training. We’ll teach you how to identify the different types of skylights that are out there. The good news is the vast majority of them are Velux skylights. And there’s some unique features that identify it as a Velux. The other thing that’s quite powerful is all Velux skylights, going back to really the early 90s, have an ID tag on them that tells us exactly what model type and size that skylight is. So with that information, if we can teach your dealers

to identify that it’s a Velux skylight, get that tag information, then it’s a simple, OK, here’s your blind options that are shade options that are available for that product. And we still support all our back product with shades so that they can retrofit and add shades then to those existing skylights. And there’s a huge base, like said, up until really just the last couple of years. From COVID-4, we really moved the needle on our shade sales. And now today, like I said, our core product is coming standard.

Will Hanke (33:54)
awesome.

Wayne Feltman (34:05)
We’ve got a 50 year history where the vast majority of our skylights only about 10, depending where you’re at, 10 to 20 % of our skylights were going out the door with shades on them. So the vast majority of them are what we call naked skylights. And there’s nothing more that we would love than for your audience to say, you know what? That’s an opportunity I want to capitalize on. And I’m going to add some shades to those for these folks.

Will Hanke (34:25)
Yeah. So another segment of listeners for the show are ⁓ people that do awnings, exterior shading. Do you see this as a good add-on for them as well?

Wayne Feltman (34:37)
Again, the awareness consumers have of what their options are with skylights is pretty limited, unfortunately. ⁓ Most people, they have a skylight, right? And they don’t know if they got a bubble skylight. They don’t necessarily know that there’s alternatives that are much better. If they’ve got an old Velux skylight, they don’t necessarily know why they might want to replace that skylight or why they might want to add a shade to that skylight for energy improvement reasons and or just light control reasons.

I think there is an opportunity, regardless of whether you’re inside the home or exterior, when you see skylights, I think there’s an opportunity there. unfortunately for us, not too many people are dialed into this category and talking about it. So you can do a couple of things, whether you’re an interior window treatment specialist or an exterior awning guy. If you want to get in the game, first thing is reaching out to us and say,

You know, I heard this podcast, I think there’s an opportunity here. I’d like to learn a little bit more about it. And what we’ll do is we’ll come in and we’ll do some training and kind of let you know what the opportunities are in terms of, okay, if it’s this kind of skylight, here’s what you need to do with it. If it’s one of ours, here’s what your options are. But in a lot of cases, you might want to even do a partnership, you know, knowledge is power. And if you guys are at the home, have the relationship with the homeowner, part of what I do in my current role is develop a network of skylight specialists across the country.

And our skylight specialists, I mean, they make their living literally installing, replacing, and servicing skylights. So there’s an opportunity there, I think, where you could partner, if we have one in the market that one of your customers is working at, to create a partnership and say, hey, I don’t want to get in the business necessarily of replacing skylights. And hey, I’m not a roofer. I’m not comfortable with that. But I am a shade guy, or I’m an exterior awning guy, and I see an opportunity here. And depending on the age of that, you

installing the shades is easy, but you might not want to install a shade on a 40-year-old skylight, right? So there might be some synergies that could happen there. ⁓ And by all means, like I said, I’ve brought people into our industry, into our category of skylight specialists. A lot of our specialists had no former industry experience. And it is unique industry in that not everyone’s out talking about it, which that’s a positive in some respects, because it’s a niche then that you can really carve out a market for yourself.

Will Hanke (36:51)
So I think it all starts with paying attention, right? And just if you see those bubbles when you’re putting on and oning, you know, it’s time to have a chat about those probably.

Wayne Feltman (36:54)
For sure.

Yeah,

sure.

And like I said, I understand that their core focus is probably awnings or window treatments. this isn’t necessarily going to be for everybody. But for those that are interested, would say reach out to us and let’s talk. Let’s see what we can ⁓ kind of work out.

Will Hanke (37:17)
Yeah, so Wayne where do you think the skylight and shade market is going in the next two to three years?

Wayne Feltman (37:24)
Great question. I wish I had that crystal ball. Like I said, I really love our current product program because of the functionality, the solar power, the velux Active with the automation and stuff. ⁓ There’s a lot of other technologies out there. I right now we’re still relying on a fabric pleated or honeycomb style shade. There’s technology out there today. It’s just expensive where you push a button and the glass changes.

color. There’s electrochromic, photochromic glass, things of that nature. I don’t know how soon that is on the horizon. A lot of it’s cost. Some of it might be durability and longevity. And I’m not sure, quite honestly, how that, in terms of energy performance, the one benefit of putting a material fabric type shading device is you’re adding another layer to that glass and really improving the energy performance.

So from a solar heat gain, could see that technology being really good. From a U-value perspective, I’m not sure it would be as good as what we have today. But I do see a trend towards that probably, as it applies to skylights and even vertical windows. I imagine the folks in your industry are probably even more up to speed on that than I am. ⁓ But the other thing that I do see is

that the society is becoming much more energy conscious and much more sustainably focused.

We say this at velux a lot, and it’s true. A skylight is the most energy efficient window in the world. And when you hear that, you think, I’ve heard just the opposite. Skylights are energy hogs. They’re energy losers. Well, the reality is you get twice as much light through a skylight as you do a comparably sized vertical window.

So if you’ve got a 2 by 4 vertical window, you could put a 2 by 2 skylight, half the size, and get as much light, and I would argue a better quality of light through that skylight than that vertical window.

But when you talk about an energy envelope of a building, ⁓ that’s powerful. If you can get twice as much light or as much light but with half the fenestration area. And smart architects, smart builders, as energy codes get more stringent, I think our category and our products are going to become much more relevant. And I think we’re going to see the adoption of skylights and daylighting through the roof only improve. ⁓ in terms of my crystal ball,

And the other reality is, our market penetration now is, depending where you’re at, 10 to 20 % of homes. So we’ve got a huge growth trajectory to get to where we want to be, which is 100 % of homes out there having some kind of skylight or tubular day lighting device.

Will Hanke (39:52)
Yeah, sure.

Yeah, definitely. Lots of upside for you. That’s great.

Wayne Feltman (39:59)
Absolutely, absolutely. And for our

partners. I like I said, we’re a manufacturer, and we’re only successful if we got good partners out there helping bring awareness to our category. And that’s our biggest challenge. You need a vertical window. Codes currently require it. You need an entryway door. You don’t necessarily need a skylight. At least people don’t know that they need one. I would argue they do. They just don’t know it. And so over time, I think as we build out our network of installers, our specialists,

as our

company grows, our advertising and marketing budgets grow. And again, the sustainability argument really bodes well for our product category because it is the most sustainable way to daylight a house. It’s the most energy efficient way of doing it.

Will Hanke (40:42)
Wayne, I appreciate all the things that you’ve shared today. As we start to wrap up, I wanted to ask, ⁓ do you have a favorite success story where adding Skylight Shades made a big difference for a dealer or a homeowner?

Wayne Feltman (40:56)
boy. You know, the one thing I love about this job is we get to see some really cool homes and do some really neat things. I’ve been involved with a lot of the HGTV projects over the years and we’re in all the major shows. And what’s really cool is with those projects is, know, we the budgets kind of go out the window and we can load them up with skylights.

And I recently did one down in Nashville, Tennessee, where it was the center of a home that a central staircase, tall, narrow, three story type home. And we put a bank of five over five skylights above this three story staircase in the middle of the home. would have been vertical windows could have gone up it, but just wouldn’t have been the same. And they were venting skylights with shades and a touch of a button or a touch of your.

your app on your phone, all the skylights would open, all the shades could come down. And when you put a room darkening shade in that application, what’s really cool about it, when you got that many skylights and an application that really needs the daylight, when you bring all those room darkening shades down, you can see what that space kind of would look like without skylights. And then when you open them all, you’re like, wow, what a difference. I’m so glad we added these skylights.

And that’s just a one-off. we do lots of probably. We’ve got a system that allows us to do gangs or groupings of skylights. But those are always the most fun because the impact is so dramatic. And when you put the solar powered shades on it, you can operate them all simultaneously. And it’s really dramatic. So it’s not necessarily one project as much as those type of projects that I really like, because it really features the power of what we can do. And then on the flip side,

I work with a number of builders that, you know, small master, I’ll call it primary bass. And for whatever reason, they may not have vertical windows because it’s an interior type location. And then I may have a single two by four skylight. And same same thing applies though. Yeah, you know, put a room darkening shade on that. You know, Mr. Mr. Homeowner, especially if it’s in a model home, and it’s an option, which unfortunately, a lot of times builders just want to I don’t want to price myself out of the market. So yeah, I’ll offer skylights, but it’s gonna be an option.

And what we do on the sales agent training side is we go in there and we say, OK, here’s how you sell the skylights. You close the shade and say, OK, here’s this room now. Open the shade and say, here it is with the skylight. And then it sells itself. Even with a single skylight, it’s that dramatic.

Will Hanke (43:31)
Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, thank you. For anybody that’s interested in exploring this opportunity a little further, what’s the best way for them to connect with you or Velux?

Wayne Feltman (43:41)
Yeah, great question.

I would recommend starting with our website. Our domestic website is VeLUXUSA.com and there is a wealth of information out there. And then through that mechanism, through the website, you can reach out to our customer service team. You can email or there’s phone numbers out there as well. But reach out to us and just say, I’m in such and such a state. I’d be interested in connecting with my local Velux representative.

Like I said, we do have a representative in just about a

just about every state, but every state is definitely covered. And they will welcome your call and look forward to the opportunity to sit down and talk about what the opportunity is to partner with us. And like I said, we can partner in a number of different ways. It really just depends on their level of interest and what they’re trying to achieve.

Will Hanke (44:24)
Wayne, thank you so much for being on the show. This has been some fantastic insights.

Wayne Feltman (44:29)
Hey, Will, I appreciate the opportunity to be on and hopefully we’ll hear from some of your customers.

Will Hanke (44:34)
Awesome. Well, that’s a wrap for today’s episode of Marketing Panes A big thank you to Wayne Feltman for sharing his insights and showing us

how Skylight Shades are not just about comfort, but also about creating a new revenue stream for dealers already in the home. If today’s conversation gave you even one new idea, do us a favor, share this episode with another window treatment or awning pro who could benefit.

Make sure you’re subscribed to follow us on our social media and YouTube at Window Treatment Marketing Pros so you don’t miss future episodes packed with real world marketing tips and industry insights. And if you want to learn more about adding skylight shades to your business, check out the resources Wayne mentioned and connect with Velux. We’ll have all his info and links in the show notes on our website, WTMarketingPros.com. Thanks for tuning in and we’ll catch you on the next episode of Marketing Panes.

Guest Profile: Graig Weiss

Graig Weiss brings over 20 years of leadership experience and a people-first mindset that has shaped everything from public schools to personalized service calls. Before entering the window treatment industry, he led Foundation Academies in Trenton, taught in the South Bronx and the Dominican Republic, founded a school in Punta Cana, and consulted with Cambridge Associates.
Now, he’s the hands-on owner and operator of Bloomin’ Blinds of BuxMont, managing everything from sales consultations to installations — bringing the same passion and impact to home transformations as he once did to education. Under his leadership, Bloomin’ Blinds of BuxMont was named 2024 Franchise Owner of the Year, earned top national sales awards, and became one of the brand’s highest-performing and most recognized franchises.
With a degree in Finance and Accounting from the University of Pittsburgh, two master’s degrees, and a life full of family, travel, and skiing, Graig blends heart, hustle, and hands-on leadership.

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Welcome back to Marketing Panes the podcast where we dive into real marketing strategies, stories, and shifts happening in the window treatment and awning world. The guest joining us today brings over 20 years of leadership experience and a people first mindset that has shaped everything from public schools to personalized service calls. Before diving into the world of blinds, he led foundation academies in Trenton.

taught in the South Bronx and Dominican Republic, founded a school in Punta Cana, and consulted with Cambridge Associates. Now he’s the hands-on owner and operator of Bloomin’ Blinds of Buxmont, where he manages everything from sales consultations to installations, bringing the same passion and impact to home transformations as he once did to education.

Under his leadership, Bloomin’ Blinds of Buxmont was named the 2025 Franchise Owner of the Year, earned top national sales awards across multiple categories, and became one of the brand’s highest performing and most recognized franchises. With two master’s degrees from the University of Pittsburgh and a life full of family, travel, and skiing, he’s a guy who blends heart, hustle, and hands-on leadership. Welcome to the show, Graig Weiss

Graig Weiss (01:23)
All right, thank you so much. Great to be here.

Will Hanke (01:25)
Yeah, I appreciate it. So quick disclaimer before we just jump into the questions, Graig is a client of ours and has been probably for two years or so now. So we’ve been doing his marketing and just wanted to clear the air there and make sure everybody knew about that before we started. All right, so Graig, thanks for being on the show. Why don’t you give me the 10,000 foot view of what you’ve got going on currently with the business.

Graig Weiss (01:51)
Yeah, so as Will said, know, Bloomin’ Blinds, Buxmont, we’re up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, just outside of Philadelphia. We cover most, pretty much anywhere within an hour of where I live. Mobile-based business, Bloomin’ Blinds is a franchise system, like a lot of others.

and mobile base, mobile showroom. We go out to the customers, we can do consultations in their home and install high-end window treatments.

Will Hanke (02:26)
Awesome. And you’re located in Pennsylvania.

Graig Weiss (02:29)
Yes, just outside Philadelphia and in Pennsylvania, we also get over a little bit into New Jersey, over into the Princeton area of New Jersey, but mainly the surrounding suburbs of Philadelphia.

Will Hanke (02:41)
Awesome, awesome. So what drew you to the window treatment business and what drew you to Bloomin’ Blinds in particular?

Graig Weiss (02:49)
Yeah, so it’s a great question. If you would have told me five years ago that I’d be doing window treatments, I would have never believed you. I’m a former school administrator. I was running a charter school in Trenton, New Jersey. And after the pandemic, I knew I just needed to do something a little different. I needed to get away from school administration and started researching franchises. And there were a lot of things that I liked about Bloomin’ Blinds and window treatments in general.

And that was about three years ago and took the leap and have been growing it ever since. And I think the thing that surprised me most about it is how much I actually enjoy it. Originally it was going to be a side business for me and I was going to hire somebody just to kind of run it. And at the encouragement of the brothers that own Bloomin’ Blinds they were like, you got to get in the van, you got to learn the business. And I was very reluctant, got in the van and then decided, you know what, this is great. You get out there and meet some wonderful people.

You know, you make your own schedule. There’s a sense of accomplishment when you do projects and whatnot. And so it’s been a fun ride and we’re continuing to grow it.

Will Hanke (04:00)
That’s awesome. Now, coming from the education side, how has that background influenced how you’re running your business right now?

Graig Weiss (04:08)
Yeah, it’s, you know, lot of it, you know, kind of carries over. mean, one of the things that I would say is like, it’s all people first. You know, having run an organization, you’re always focused on the people and our customers are no different. We’re focused on what they need and listening to them and their needs and really delivering a service and a product that are really second to none. That’s the goal overall.

Will Hanke (04:35)
How do you think customers see Bloomin’ Blinds in your area and how do you want them to see it?

Graig Weiss (04:42)
Yeah, I mean, I guess the first thing is we want them to see it because, you know, I mean, that’s that’s marketing, getting getting them out there. And it starts with the pink shirts and the pink vans and, ⁓ you know, really just getting that brand recognition out there. ⁓ I think window treatments overall is it’s ⁓ it’s not it’s not an industry that’s necessarily that visible. I know before I got into the the industry, the only place is I kind of.

thought of were like, know, blinds.com and, you know, maybe blinds to go because they have their big, you know, red buildings. And maybe walk down an aisle at Home Depot. There are a lot of other, you know, great vendors out there. And so I think that’s that’s first and foremost. But I think, you know, Bloom Blinds in particular, I always try to put myself in the customer’s shoes and what what would I want as a potential customer?

And like really just treating our customers that way, showing up on time, doing what we’re say we’re gonna do, delivering a perfect product, non pushy sales, all those things I think contribute to ⁓ what we’re trying to convey to all of our customers.

Will Hanke (05:58)
Cool, thank you for that. So I want to talk a little bit about customer experience since we’re kind of on that train. ⁓ What does it actually look like in your business beyond even the install?

Graig Weiss (06:11)
Yeah, so I mean, you know, I would start with first that like 95 % of the customers that we have are really great people. And that’s one of the things I love about this business overall. You get out there and you meet some really great people that would probably have never otherwise encountered in our lives. you know, so the experience is actually, it comes naturally. Like we don’t have to fake it.

You you’re going out there, you’re listening to customers, listening to…

you know, what their needs are, what are they trying to accomplish? Because window treatments should be both beautiful and functional. And so we’re really trying to listen for and ask the right questions as far as what do they need and want their home to, what do they want their home to look like and what do they want their window treatments to be able to do?

And then it’s, you know, basically steering them in the direction and exploring different options.

I’m not a believer, we don’t have favorite window treatments. They all have their pros and cons and that’s really what we’re trying to go through and really trying to ⁓ just match up what a customer wants and what’s gonna work best for them.

Will Hanke (07:23)
I love that I actually had that experience a month or two ago. We had a company come out to do ours and my wife was thinking of Roman Shades and after having a great conversation and getting some consultation, we ended up with Shutter. So totally different than what we thought we wanted. But that consultation piece is really huge.

Graig Weiss (07:44)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, we find that often. you know, sometimes people call away something that they think they, you know, they saw on Pinterest that they think is going to work really well. And maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t. And so we’re just kind of like laying out the pros and cons in order to make sure that they’re happy customers.

Will Hanke (07:46)
Yeah, that’s.

Yeah, definitely makes for a better experience. Can you tell me about a time when some sort of customer interaction turned into a great marketing win?

Graig Weiss (08:12)
Yeah, so we often do,

I one of the things that’s really unique about Bloomin’ Blinds is we do repairs as well. And we do repairs not because it’s the highest, you know, profit margins or, you know, anything like that. We do it as a courtesy to the customer because if you have, let’s say you have a room filled with like eight window treatments and one of them needs to be fixed, you don’t necessarily want to buy eight new window treatments.

But oftentimes providing that service, you know, getting into the home and, sometimes fixing,

some of the window treatments down the road will often lead to ⁓ either referrals, ⁓ which are always appreciated, ⁓ as well as sometimes they’ll come back a year later and say, actually, now I want to replace them or something along those lines. And that just starts with, again, that non-pushy, pushy approach. We’re coming out there and we’re not going to be pushy. We’re not going to upsell. We’re going to deliver services that we know you’re going to be happy with.

Will Hanke (09:09)
Yeah, I’m a huge fan of playing the long game.

I think, you know, being patient and understanding that investing in these repairs, those types of things for you are going to pay dividends down the road.

Graig Weiss (09:22)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Will Hanke (09:23)
Yeah. How do you build these kind of like wow moments in without breaking the bank, doing just, you know, in a repair where you’re making a hundred, 150 bucks or something like that ⁓ versus obviously your time that you spent to do that as well. How do you kind of build that in?

Graig Weiss (09:41)
Yeah, I think it’s like you just said, it’s playing the long game. My philosophy the first year was like, if we make no money this year, it’s OK. It’s building that customer base, building that referral program, meeting those relationships, and then results will come. And so that’s really in our philosophy and all of it. mean, we’ll do everything from a small repair all the way up to high-end motorization.

jobs as much as $45,000 in one home. So we’ll do everything in between because that small job, might be the van is parked right in front of the house and the neighbor across the street is in the market for window treatments or that customer’s relative needs window treatments. So we’re happy to service all customers even when it’s seemingly in the moment where they’re not high ticket items.

Will Hanke (10:33)
I love the van idea, just the fact that that is doing work for you while you’re in a home, something like that. And then of course you got the whole Joneses thing going on, right? What’s going on over there?

Graig Weiss (10:45)
Yeah, for sure,

for sure. And the van is hard to miss. I mean, it’s white and hot pink. So it’s a moving billboard, for sure.

Will Hanke (10:54)
Yeah, yeah. How do you balance being part of that national brand, but keeping your message authentic and local at the same time?

Graig Weiss (11:03)
Yeah, mean, it’s a combination of both. mean, in the Northeast, Bloomin Blinds is not as well known as like, you know, in the South and some of those different areas. So it is about getting the word out there. I mean, at the end of the day, even though we’re a franchise system, we’re still family-owned business. ⁓ You know, my wife and I are 100 % owners in the company. ⁓ It’s one of the things I like about Bloomin Blinds. We don’t push any one product or any one manufacturer in particular.

We carry four or five manufacturers and so really looking for the products that offer the best value to our customers. So if a customer is looking for a specific name brand, we’re happy to pull those out. Otherwise, we’ll pull different manufacturers out based on our experience and the value that they bring. But it’s always putting that local touch on it.

Everybody that works in our market is local and community based. And so we really are that family owned business even though we’re part of that larger franchise.

Will Hanke (12:08)
Yeah. Now with you being in the Northeast, are there any brand decisions that you think work especially well in your area?

Graig Weiss (12:16)
⁓ Not really in particular. mean obviously, you know, we recently started offering Hunter Douglas.

Hunter Douglas is, you know, probably one of the most known window treatment products out there. So we were happy to add that to our repertoire and, you know, be able to offer that.

But a lot of it is just, again, based on the products. We kind of have our favorites that we kind of steer in the direction depending on the product. So if it’s shutters and faux wood, it might be one manufacturer. If it’s cellular honeycomb shades, it might be another manufacturer. Just on our experience with those various products. And again, that’s one of the things I love about.

know, Bloomin’ Blinds is that they don’t push one thing over the other. They’re really open to, you know, it’s your franchise. You decide what you are going to sell and work with on an ongoing basis.

Will Hanke (13:07)
I know that you’ve been expanding and really kind of building out your area. So I’d like to talk a couple of questions about that. ⁓ What resources or structures helped you feel confident in growing your location and expanding?

Graig Weiss (13:23)
Yeah, I mean really, as far as resources go, it’s just, know, it’s really about people. I mean, this is really very, very much a people business and having the right partners in place like Window Treatment Marketing Pros, a little commercial there. But, you know, that’s a big piece to expanding, you know, just getting the word out there about the services that we provide and, you know, things like that. It’s…

I don’t want say it’s happened completely organically because there’s a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes, but this isn’t coupons or things like that that helps us expand. It’s reputation, making sure that that reputation is building online and things like that. As far as confidence go, a lot of it’s experience. You do things and the more that you do them, you get more more comfortable with both…

products and things that you’re installing in homes and knowing what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. ⁓ But again, you know, finding those vendors and those installers that are really going to knock it out of the park and, you know, deliver that perfection that we’re after. That’s really the key. And so it’s been somewhat, you know, slow and methodical. I mean, in some respects it’s been fast, but in some respects, you know, it hasn’t happened overnight. There hasn’t been a light switch that went off.

with the expansion, just, you know, it’s a snowball effect.

Will Hanke (14:45)
Yeah. Are there any common traps that you see from business owners that try to scale up their brand presence maybe a little bit too fast?

Graig Weiss (14:54)
Yeah, I would say again, it kind of comes back to people. mean, you know, we’re really particular in the people that work with us and, you we have high expectations and we need that to deliver. And I think that’s what our customers expect. I know that’s what I would want from, you know, from a vendor for them to come in and deliver on the promises that they’ve said and make sure that everything is perfect. I mean, our customers are paying for perfection and that’s what we’re trying to deliver every single time.

Will Hanke (15:22)
That’s awesome. So Bloomin’ Blinds has earned some strong recognition lately. And you yourself has as well. A couple different things that has gone on. You won 2024 franchise owner of the year. That’s pretty awesome. 2024 top overall sales for Ulta. 2000 top sales for Cellular Shades, Ulta again. Top product sales for Bloomin Blinds Cellular Shades and Soft Treatments.

Graig Weiss (15:37)
Yeah.

Will Hanke (15:52)
With all these awards, obviously they build trust, right, with your brand. ⁓ How is that for internal motivation?

Graig Weiss (16:04)
I would just say it’s incredibly gratifying. obviously when you start a business, as anyone who’s ever started a business, it’s a very nerve wracking experience and it’s more a mental game than anything else. When you start a business, I know for the first six months I pretty much woke up every day and be like, this the right decision? Am I making the right moves and things like that. Eventually you start to gain traction and that confidence builds and things like that.

But yeah, I I gave up a steady job with benefits and a pension and sort of took this leap of faith. And so when we got that award, was sort of like that moment where like, wow, we actually made this work and we can actually make a living out of it. So that was a really nice moment and some nice recognition for us.

Will Hanke (16:58)
Yeah, as I mentioned, great trust factor. Just having those types of awards from a consumer standpoint, these guys must be the best if they’re winning awards, right? ⁓ That’s always great. I think as entrepreneurs, we’re more likely to take crazy risks than maybe the average person would, ⁓ hoping that it pays off down the road.

Graig Weiss (17:22)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that was, you know, when I got into this, I was like, I’m just going to bet on myself on this one. You know, used, I used retirement money and it’s like, well, I can either put it in the stock market and let it ride or we can bet on ourselves. And, and, you know, you take that again, it’s a risk, but, you know, I think, you know, that entrepreneur, an entrepreneurial mindset is that now that, now that we’ve done it once, we can do it again, you know, so, you know, we continue to take those little risks and.

continue to the business.

Will Hanke (17:52)
Yeah, it’s highly motivating too if you’re that type of personality. My coach always says you eat what you kill, right? You got to get out there and make it happen or you can’t complain about it. Yeah, cool. So I know that you started in just a small service area. We kind of talked about your expansion. What was the mindset or what led you to wanting to start the expansion?

Graig Weiss (18:02)
Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Yeah, so it’s like really just being opportunistic. You know, I wasn’t really looking necessarily to expand. There was another Bloomin’ Blinds colleague that he had, he had several different businesses that he was running. He called me up at the end of last year and he said, hey, you interested in buying, you know, my territories? And so, you know, no matter what the case, I’m going to have the conversation. And one thing led to another. And we were able to, you know, buy those territories and, know,

you know, the plan is to continue to expand in a slow, deliberate way. So it’s really just being opportunistic and taking advantage of the opportunities that are presented. You just have to have your ears open and listening to them.

Will Hanke (19:01)
Yeah, I love that. ⁓ As you expand, how are you keeping the brand consistent as your physical area widens and you’ve got to juggle all these different things?

Graig Weiss (19:14)
Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely a challenge. I would even say that we’re not really, you know, we’re really not maximizing the new territories just yet. We’ve been really trying to build the team. And then once we have that team in place, then we can start to, you know, it opens up the capacity of, you know, of all of us to do a little bit more. And that’s when you can even do, you know, a little bit more marketing and, ⁓ you know, things like that to really maximize that area. So.

⁓ Even though we acquired the territories, it wasn’t day one that we hit the gas pedal on marketing out there because we just didn’t, you again, the opportunity arose. We took advantage of the opportunity, ⁓ but we need to build the team out to like really capitalize and make the most of it.

Will Hanke (19:57)
Yeah, you want to grow with your business, right? You don’t want to suddenly scale like crazy and then have to figure out how to make it work and start getting poor reviews. A lot of things could happen that way.

Yeah, yeah.

Graig Weiss (20:07)
That’s right. That’s right.

Will Hanke (20:11)
Was there a turning point for you when you realized like we’re ready to grow and your ear became more receptive to these opportunities?

Graig Weiss (20:22)
I don’t think so. I don’t think it was like one ⁓ catalyst that said that. mean, obviously, you kind of spoke earlier about the entrepreneurial mindset and like, you know, how as business owners,

in some ways it’s never enough. So you always want to be, know, once we reach a certain amount in sales, we want to be taking that next step and that next step and that next step. And so it’s constantly having that desire to grow.

But also being realistic about what are the steps that I need to put in place in order to grow this thing responsibly?

And at times that’s a tough balance I mean there’s definitely been months where I’m working seven days a week and doing installs on weekends to kind of get caught up ⁓ as we sort of build the team ⁓ But ⁓ you know, it’s all worth it in the end because you know at the end of the day we’re doing this for our families and you know, that’s what’s the most important to us to us all really

Will Hanke (21:13)
Yeah, what is it? I think it was Laurie from Shark Tank says entrepreneurs will work 80 hours to avoid working 40.

Graig Weiss (21:20)
That’s so true. You know,

it’s funny you mention that. think about two or three months in, I looked over at my wife and I said, you know what the biggest thing that scares me about this potentially not working? And she says, financial failure? said, nope, having to go back to a nine to five.

Will Hanke (21:38)
Yeah, by far, by far.

Thank you so much for the questions. I want to jump into some maybe kind of fun questions, if that would be OK. Have you ever had a customer request that totally caught you off guard?

Graig Weiss (21:45)
Yeah, yeah.

totally caught me off guard. ⁓ I’ve had customers ask for things, know, again my philosophy is that if I wouldn’t do it in my own home, I’m not gonna do it in somebody else’s home. ⁓ There have been things that, I’ll never forget, a customer had like a window that was 20 feet in the air and they wanted to put a continuous cord loop ⁓ all the way down 20 feet in order to operate the shade and ⁓ kind of caught me off guard but I was like, as I thought about it, I’m like, no, I’m not gonna do that.

Because at the end of the day, that’s not how it’s supposed to function. ⁓ My name is on it. I just didn’t think it was a really good move. So I kind of try to steer them in a different direction. I’ve had some other cool requests. I had a customer who was like, we want this to be the focal point. We want you to do something here that’s totally like that nobody’s ever seen before. ⁓ And so that was kind of a fun project.

At the end of the day, we had designed something that was very ⁓ outlandish, and they kind scaled it back and decided maybe we don’t want one as outlandish. But for the most part, those are few and far between, but they’re fun when they happen.

Will Hanke (22:57)
you

that’s fun. That

was probably a great learning experience for you. Even just building it out and then them having to scale it back. Very cool. What is the best and worst business advice you’ve ever received?

Graig Weiss (23:09)
Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Yep, absolutely.

Ooh, that’s a good question. Best and worst business advice.

I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that one. Nothing’s really coming to mind. it probably received a little bit of both, you know, in both regards, both good and bad advice. But I mean, that’s, you know, kind of goes back to, mean, one of the things that I’m constantly trying to do is talk to owners that are successful and beg, borrow and steal, you know, ideas from them. You know, that’s one of the benefits of being in a franchise system and the thing that I really value.

Will Hanke (23:37)
All right.

Graig Weiss (24:02)
is reaching out to the other owners and figure out what’s working for them and maybe what’s not working so well.

Will Hanke (24:08)
Yeah, on ⁓ the ⁓ project that you had where they said they wanted something really outlandish, have you ever come across a situation where you’re just not the right fit for the customer? And if so, how do you kind of handle that interaction?

Graig Weiss (24:27)
Yeah, mean, ⁓ it’s just being honest. I think people respect being really honest with what your capabilities are. mean, one of the areas that I would like to get into eventually is pergolas. We’re doing a lot more exterior screens. We’re starting to get into awnings a little bit more. But pergolas are just not something that I currently have the team to tackle. And so we’ve been asked about them, and that’s my response. If you talk to me in two years,

The answer might be yes. The answer right now is I just don’t have the team in place to execute a pergola. so, you know, and if I have, if I have partners that, you know, or recommendations, happy to provide those, you know, we do that in a lot of other areas. We often are in the home, we build that trust with customers and the customers are asking us for painters and, know, somebody to renovate their kitchen and, you know, things of that nature. And so happy to, you know, always provide.

those resources for other folks in the community who do an excellent job that have the standards that we do.

Will Hanke (25:34)
Yeah, there’s something definitely to be said about becoming a coach or a resource for a customer. ⁓ They really put quality into that and they consider you an expert, obviously. So that really kind of elevates you from just being a sales guy.

Graig Weiss (25:52)
Yep, yep, absolutely.

Will Hanke (25:54)
Love that. ⁓ Very good. Running a classroom and running a business, which one has more surprises?

Graig Weiss (26:03)
that’s easy. Definitely a classroom has more surprises. I’ve got stories. I’ve got stories.

Will Hanke (26:10)
Yeah, you don’t have to get into the stories.

⁓ But was it because of the age group? What was the big thing that was creating all those surprises for you?

Graig Weiss (26:21)
Uh, it’s, both it’s, you know, kids are kids, right. And kids are always going to be wires kids. And I know we all have stories that, you know, how we were when we were kids, but, uh, you know, kids are unique. And when you’re dealing with, mean, when I was running, uh, foundation academies in Trent, had 1200 kids. And so there was always those few kids that had those personalities that, you know, just kind of throw it, keep you on your toes, if you will. so, but I was also, when I was a teacher, I was also teaching middle school and.

school, you have to have a of unique sense of humor to appreciate the middle school sense of humor.

Will Hanke (26:57)
For sure. I bet along the way you learned a lot about leadership as well. Yeah.

Graig Weiss (27:01)
Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah.

Both learned it, you know, the hard way and, but that’s, I mean, it’s funny because like, you know, running a business is challenging, but it’s nothing like, you know, what I was doing before. That was just, you know, we had 1200 kids between parents and students and, you know, 150 staff and board members. There was just a whole lot to, you know, cut. At times you felt like a pinball and you were just kind of like…

Will Hanke (27:29)
you

Graig Weiss (27:29)
bouncing

between the different constituents and trying to keep things on the right track.

Will Hanke (27:35)
Yeah. Is there any one leadership lesson that’s really carried over in a big way for you?

Graig Weiss (27:41)
I think the biggest thing is humility. mean,

leadership will humble you quicker than anything. And I think that’s true in the business that we do.

I always tell customers, I can’t promise it’s going to be perfect. I’m going to try real hard because it’s going to cost me money if I don’t. there’s mistakes that we make. We mismeasure things and have to reorder things or things get damaged during shipping.

But I think the biggest thing is just that humility and being genuine with people and making things right in the long

And I think that that’s true in like any leadership position.

Will Hanke (28:20)
Yeah, smart advice. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Let’s talk about the future. What are you most excited about in the next 6 to 12 months?

Graig Weiss (28:30)
Yeah, just continuing to grow things, continuing to learn new things, offer new products. As I said, we’re doing more more exterior work.

So exterior, the retractable zipper screens. We’re doing now retractable awnings. And who knows, like I said, in another year or two, maybe we’re doing percolas and things like that.

I just think the exterior space, we’re really seeing high demand for the exterior spaces and it just makes so much sense. mean, it can extend your living space in a very cost-effective way to do some of these projects.

Will Hanke (29:11)
I love that. I would say two years ago, maybe 10 % of our client base did exterior. And now that number is probably 35 to 40%. A lot more of the window treatment offerings are turning to exterior as well.

Graig Weiss (29:31)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the thing that I love about, you know, the motorized screens in particular is most people think of them to knock down the sun, which they do. But in the Northeast, what they can do is if you put infrared heaters inside your, you know, porch or what have you, ⁓ they actually retain the heat. And so now you’ve gone from a three, four month porch to a nine month porch.

just by adding those retractable screens and some heaters. ⁓ yeah, that’s my favorite thing about the screens.

Will Hanke (30:07)
I like that. That expands your square footage as far as livable square footage in the winter, especially. That’s fantastic. I like that. Where can people connect with you to learn more about Bloomin’ Blind’s Buxmot and your journey individually?

Graig Weiss (30:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. So I’m pretty accessible. You can either email me at bucksco B-U-C-K-S-C-O @ bloomingblinds.com. Visit our website at bloominblindsbuxmont.com And ⁓ yeah, those are probably the two easiest ways, but I’m happy to connect with whoever and ⁓ see how we can share resources.

Will Hanke (30:51)
Yeah. Any awards that you’ve got your eyes on for next year?

Graig Weiss (30:57)
No, you know, I tend to think that those awards like happen organically. Again, really proud to, you know, have been honored to receive them. But we’re just going to continue to keep our head down, try to deliver exceptional services. And then, you know, maybe some of those awards will come up as a byproduct of our work.

Will Hanke (31:20)
Perfect answer. I love that. Keep your head down. Keep pushing forward, right? That’s awesome. Well, Graig, thank you so much for being on the show today. I really do appreciate it.

Graig Weiss (31:21)
That’s right.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate you and your partnership in this journey.

Will Hanke (31:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, we’re excited for the future. We’re excited for your expansion. Obviously, ready to help it however we can. Awesome.

Well, big thanks to Graig Weiss for sharing his perspective on what it means to build something that truly reflects your values from the way you lead the team to how your brand shows up in the community. His journey is a reminder that strong businesses aren’t just built on sales, but on purpose, consistency, and connection.

If you’re thinking about how to align your marketing with your message, we hope this episode gave you somewhat of a

roadmap. Subscribe, share with a friend and we’ll catch you next time on Marketing Panes.

Guest Profile: Joe Estrada

Joe Estrada, Account Manager at Coulisse Distribution, serving the Northeast and Midwest regions of the U.S. Joe partners with custom window shade fabricators to deliver innovative, high-quality solutions—especially in smart shading technology through MotionBlinds. With a focus on responsive service, long-term relationships, and empowering trade professionals, Joe helps clients stay competitive in a fast-evolving industry

Special Invite to Sun Shading Expo 2025

Heading to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis this November 5–7? We’ve got you covered!

Use code SSENA25WTMP when registering to claim your FREE admission ticket.

Don’t miss this chance to connect with top industry leaders, see the latest innovations, and experience hands-on demos — all at no cost with our exclusive listener code.

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Welcome to another episode of marketing panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning professionals about their marketing, innovation and business growth. I’m your host, Will Hanke. And today we’re diving into the world of smart shading and innovation with guests who knows this space in and out. Our guest today is Joe Estrada, account manager at Coulisse distribution, serving the Northeast and Midwest regions of the U S.

Joe partners with custom windows shade fabricators to deliver innovative, high quality solutions, especially in smart shading through technology called MotionBlinds, which we’re gonna dig into a little bit today. With a focus on responsive service, long-term relationships, and empowering trade professionals, Joe helps clients stay competitive in a fast evolving industry. We’ll be talking about how technology is reshaping the market and

the evolution of modular systems, and what’s next for dealers and fabricators in the smart shade

era. Joe, thanks for being on the show today.

Joe Estrada (01:07)
Absolutely. Thanks for having me Will.

Will Hanke (01:09)
Yeah, glad to have you. So for listeners who don’t know yet, can you share a little bit about your background and what you do at Coulisse Distribution?

Joe Estrada (01:19)
Yeah, yeah, so you touched on it. So I’m a sales rep for Coulisse . I’ve been with the company just a little over a year and a half, coming up on almost two years now, serving primarily the Midwest and parts of the Northeast. So our team, we have coverage throughout the whole country here in the U.S. as well as Canada, and then making our way down to Central America and South America as well. So we have local representation in kind of every corner of the country.

and my portion is the Midwest and a few accounts of the Northeast as well.

Will Hanke (01:50)
Nice. I heard a rumor this was your first podcast.

Joe Estrada (01:54)
It is, it is. think I was joking with you. I, I’m about a daily listener of some kind of a podcast, especially when I’m traveling. but this is the first one that I’m on. So you’re you’re kind of like an adult Santa Claus, you know, Santa Claus for adults making my, little dream come true here. So thanks again.

Will Hanke (02:08)
⁓

too funny. What made you say yes for joining us today?

Joe Estrada (02:12)
Yeah, so ⁓ obviously having the opportunity to share some of the exciting things that we’re doing at Coulisse , especially in evolving landscape in our industry right now. And you guys, the R+T group, you yourself, have always been really, really ⁓ kind to us at Coulisse So when the opportunity presented itself, we felt we had to jump on top of it. I guess you guys are stuck with me. So.

Will Hanke (02:35)
Yeah. Well,

it’s great having you here today. So let’s talk a little bit about Coulisse . I’d love to know what sets Coulisse apart from the other component and fabric suppliers in the window treatment space.

Joe Estrada (02:49)
Yeah, yeah, so I would say one thing that’s kind of unique about us is we are a global one-stop shop. So whether it’s components, hardware, our collections, and our own motors, we are a true, we sell a true system. So obviously you can take the parts that you like if you don’t want or need the full system, but really the beauty in what Coulisse offers is our system approach. ⁓ And we’re going to dive a little bit deeper into that, but I would say that’s something that’s unique.

and then I think our look, our feel kind of our marketing, our branding is a little unique to us. I’m obviously a little biased, but I think we do that part of, the business really, really well. so yeah, a few things that we offer that are unique in that

sense.

Will Hanke (03:30)
Yeah, as a marketing guy, always paying attention to that and I see you guys everywhere. So you’re doing a great job there. Yeah, yeah, very good. Well, let’s jump in. I want to talk about the absolute roller. What is it? How does it serve as the foundation for your product lineup?

Joe Estrada (03:35)
Yeah. Yep. Thank you.

Yes, so we are absolute roller 2.0 system. That is it’s a modular concept, right? So the terms that our engineers like to use is it’s kind of like working with

Legos. So interchangeable components and hardware. You don’t have a right and left bracket, for example. And you can go from our essentially what, you know, for lack of a better term, our dumbest system, our chain manual operated system to our smartest motorized.

motion blind system just by removing the mechanism, the chain clutch mechanism or what some people would call a clutch and replacing it with our motor. So the tube sizes are the same, the deduction sizes are all the same. ⁓ So obviously that’s handy if you’re upgrading a shade that maybe somebody bought years ago or maybe they’re going to buy now if they’d like to upgrade at some point in the future. But it really makes it easy for the manufacturers to work with as well.

So a lot less SKUS and components to work with. ⁓ And obviously we have different sizes, whether it’s a small, medium, large size, depending on the configuration and the control. ⁓ But the modular concept of it makes it user friendly, not only for the fabricators or the manufacturers, but also the installers and then eventually the end users as well, especially when you’re talking motionblinds.

Will Hanke (05:04)
Yeah, and I can assume with that modular approach, the inventory management side of things is easier as well.

Joe Estrada (05:10)
Yep, yep. actually an introduction into our space last year, I got an opportunity to work on a bid for a company and they sent me the existing system that they were using and had said, hey, here’s all the components and hardware and everything that we buy, tell me what your equivalent would be and kind of how that would look differently.

And that’s when I really, the advantage of the modular concept kind of sunk in for me because we talk about it a lot internally.

But when you’re looking at a list of you know hundreds of components and SKUs and I’m using the same 30 40 50 SKUs essentially for the whole thing That’s when it really sunk into me like wow if I was owning the fabrication business ⁓ Especially everybody has a limit on space some some really big some small But everybody’s trying to make the most of the space that they have and they’re in their facility That’s a real big advantage to using a modular concept like what Coulisse offers

Will Hanke (06:04)
That’s great. What are the benefits for like dealers and workrooms when it comes to the system?

Joe Estrada (06:11)
Yeah, very similar. for dealers, it’s easy to install. So if the dealers are paired with the installers or have their own installers, our hardware is very, very easy to use. Again, you’re not worried about a right versus a left and having any errors or issues there that you have to fix. ⁓ For workrooms, it’s similar to a fabricator, right? Depending on where the workroom gets it or starts working at it on the product in the process. Again, fewer SKUs.

the tube sizes are all the same. ⁓ so yeah, you don’t have to familiarize yourself with a bunch of different series or systems all under our umbrella. You get used to that system and it’s a little bit easier to work with from there.

Will Hanke (06:54)
that’s great. I love that approach. I think it’s a lot easier for the end users, as you said, when it comes to figuring out what they need. And you’re probably cutting down on the amount of things that they have to order as well.

Joe Estrada (07:05)
Absolutely. Yep, just because there’s fewer SKUs ⁓ and then yeah, you really notice it with our motorized products because we have a QR code kind of system to set them up. So you don’t have to familiarize yourself with these elaborate, you know, softwares or apps. So if you’re not super techie, as long as you know how to use the camera on your phone and a QR code, which most people by now are pretty familiar with.

Will Hanke (07:30)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (07:31)
You should be okay setting them up yourselves if you choose to do so. Obviously any installer that has a little bit of experience in our industry, it’s going to be easy for them too. So yeah.

Will Hanke (07:42)
That’s awesome. I’d love to kind of jump into the motorization since you mentioned that ⁓ it’s tech that’s turning heads across the industry, especially the motionblinds. So tell me a little bit about those.

Joe Estrada (07:56)
so anywhere you see Motion, it’s funny, so my first introduction to the industry was really at R+T Stuttgart last year. I hadn’t even been with the company, I don’t think two months, so talk about drinking from a fire hose as your first event. But I was really, really thankful for

Will Hanke (08:08)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (08:12)
it,

and our booth was MotionBlinds branded. And so a lot of people kind of came over and said, hey, we heard the Coulisse booth is over here, know, where are you guys? And we’re like, you’re right here.

So when you see motionblinds, that is just Coulisse ‘s motorization line, right? That is our own brand of motorization. So we have our regular Bluetooth motors that have been around for a handful of years now for a while that everybody’s probably really familiar with. And then we have our newer smart motors, our Eve motionblinds. So a lot of folks are probably familiar with what Eve is. If you walk into a Best Buy or Apple store, you’ll see their products. They’re like a smart home company, I would say.

So that, and then we do have a comprehensive wired motor program as well for kind of the contract space and the new build space. So a fully comprehensive line of motorization kind of no matter where you’re at as an end user, whether it’s just a homeowner or you’re building a new home, building a new building. So yes, and because of the nature of just scanning the QR code to set up your shades.

It’s 100 % data private, so you don’t have to create accounts, you don’t have to give up your email and phone number and address and rights to your first child, you just scan the QR code and go.

So again, kind of that user-friendly term is something you hear us throughout there a lot, but it’s not just something we talk about. Once you start playing with it, you really can feel the difference between maybe some of the other systems out there.

Will Hanke (09:33)
Yeah, I have some experience with that with some ⁓ security cameras at my house. You just you just shoot the QR code and it just pulls that right in really quick. Yeah.

Joe Estrada (09:41)
Exactly, exactly.

so and with so thanks for mentioning that well on the on the smart home process or conversation, our Eve motionblinds, those can be integrated into your smart home or your smart building. So they’re compatible with the Apple platform, Google, Amazon and Samsung. And our our motors are matter over thread. So matter is just essentially the smart language that a lot of these smart devices speak to each other.

And then the thread network is a mesh network. So the more wired or plugged in devices that you add to it, the stronger that network gets throughout a home or throughout a building. Whereas, you know, on Wi-Fi, the more you add to it, the more juice you’re sucking out of that network. you know, wireless shades don’t necessarily strengthen that network, but anything that’s plugged in or wired will. ⁓ So matter over thread is the system that our EVE

motionblinds work on.

Will Hanke (10:36)
Yeah, and I know Amazon does something similar to that with their sidewalk, ⁓ where multiple Alexis, for instance, talk to each other. That’s always nice to have that additional kind of boost.

Joe Estrada (10:48)
Yes, and you know, a lot of people think smart is just motorized, right? You can set a timer or set end limits. Really, what smart means is that your environment ⁓ can react without you needing to do anything, right? So you can set scenes or automations based on weather, time of day, ⁓ internal temperatures, the glare of the sun.

Your smart home works around you the way that you would want it without needing to do anything. That’s kind of what makes it smart. And so that’s kind of the key difference between a regular Bluetooth motor and say like the Eve MotionBlinds.

Will Hanke (11:21)
Yeah, I’ve mentioned on a lot of my podcasts and I’m kind of a smart home nerd. And when people come over to the house, they’re always like,

Joe Estrada (11:25)
Yep. Yep.

Will Hanke (11:29)
Whoa, that just happened.

So how do you think the smart piece is going to evolve in the next 12 months? Do you think it’s going to be optional for installs or you think more people are just going to want it?

Joe Estrada (11:30)
Hahaha

Yeah, that’s a great question.

I believe the timing is anybody’s best guess, right? We have kind of chosen to be on the front end of it. We kind of got out in front of this maybe a couple of years earlier than most. ⁓ Right now, it does seem pretty optional, right? But the more people that you talk to,

the more you realize smart homes are becoming kind of the norm for lot of people.

I was telling you, Will, we were in the Netherlands last week for our annual global sales meetings with Coulisse and our home office there in Enter.

And the eastern part of the Netherlands and on the way home I sat next to a guy who has a full smart home was familiar with matter-over-thread So that’s the first time that that’s happened where I’m just kind of striking up a conversation with somebody and they really know what’s going on so I would be surprised in the next 12 months 24 months 36 months that starts to become more of the norm and eventually whether it’s in a couple years five years ten years or more a Smart home is going to probably be

Will Hanke (12:25)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (12:42)
somewhat of the standard. And depending on all the estimates that you see out there, you know, by 2030, there’s some estimates that, you know, anywhere from a third to half of homes will be smart homes, at least have smart capabilities, right?

And smart shades are going to play a bigger and bigger part of that moving forward.

Will Hanke (13:03)
Yeah, when it comes to the smart shades, what do you think? What do you wish more dealers knew about those?

Joe Estrada (13:10)
Yes, ⁓ obviously, know, so like for our concept, for example, just by changing one clutch to a motor, not much about the shade is changing, but the revenue. So your average, you know,

your average cost per shade is going to go up usually by about three X, roughly, roughly speaking. And then typically your profit margins on a motor are a little bit better than, a chain clutch as well.

The chain manual operated shades are something that the really, really big guys do really well and they’ve done really well for a long time. And they have certain advantages that maybe some of the smaller fabricators or smaller work rooms just can’t reach like they can.

But motorized shades are still kind of, are still growing in our industry.

So not only can you raise the average price per shade and make yourself more revenue by selling the same amount of shades or hopefully more, obviously.

But there’s a lot of opportunity that’s out there for the taking. So it’s as we enter kind of a new landscape, there’s a lot of clients that are looking for something that they maybe wouldn’t have been interested in before because they already had a manual shade that came with the house or apartment that they bought or whatever.

But as more folks are looking for a motorized shade, that’s where a lot of opportunity is going to be there

to eat up those customers at a higher cost per shade and a higher profit margin from what we see with our clients.

Will Hanke (14:31)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah. As consumers get more into the smart home world like me, ⁓ we have obviously installers that are putting this stuff together and they kind of have to know what is going on. On the troubleshooting side, like what’s involved there? Is it easy to troubleshoot the motionblinds or is a lot of additional knowledge required?

Joe Estrada (14:53)
No, it’s very simple. every motor will or every motor I shade will come with a kind of a setup guide and a troubleshooting guide. And it’s usually just a handful of steps, right? If all else fails, if something’s wrong with your shade, you just reset it and reprogram it. And you can program our motors in three ways. So you can do it right from the shade itself, right from the motor. You can do it with the remote or you can do it from your phone with the app. So we like to give clients, dealers, designers, whoever’s programming that shade, the option to do it how they would like to.

Will Hanke (15:17)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (15:23)
And then we also have a relatively new motion blind chat bot that you can go on to as a consumer, a dealer, a designer, an installer, ask it your questions, or even follow some of the prompts to get specifically to the shade that you’re working with. And 80, 90 % of the questions that you have, that chat bot is going to be able to answer for you. Over time, the goal is 99.9 % of the questions, so.

Will Hanke (15:45)
That’s awesome.

Joe Estrada (15:49)
Just like any LLM, it’s being trained right now ⁓ and getting better by the day. And then obviously for fabricators, ⁓ they have their sales rep like myself, ⁓ based on where they’re at throughout the country or throughout the world that they can go to for, hey, I tried the chat bot, I’m trying to reset this thing. And for whatever reason, there’s still an issue, you can lean on your sales rep and we’ll help you out as well. luckily with the…

the user friendliness of the the motionblinds and just the entire system. We don’t get a lot of those calls because they usually kind of are able to self correct one way or another. And

then with the chat bot, that has really been a huge tool and we use it a lot internally too to kind of test it. You know, how accurate is this? And so far so good.

Will Hanke (16:33)
That’s huge. And that is leading edge stuff. I probably had three AI questions yesterday on different sales calls. Everybody’s starting to use it. Our clients are starting to get referrals from Chat GPT.

Joe Estrada (16:40)
Yeah. Yep.

Will Hanke (16:47)
So having that system in place, teaching it how to answer questions is just going to make the installers especially, or the dealers, that whole thing a lot easier for them.

Joe Estrada (16:56)
Yeah, and it’s funny you say that. I was just listening to a podcast the other day. there’s actually a lot of data that’s coming out that, especially the younger generation, so Gen Z and the really, really young millennials, a lot of us, if you’re looking for a service, a product, or whatever, a lot of times it would start on Google, right? A lot of those conversations or those prompts or those searches are now starting on chat GPT, like, hey.

I’m looking for the, I don’t know, the best motorized window dealer in Detroit, Michigan or whatever. Those prompts are now a lot of times starting from chat GPT. as I think just kind of a personal opinion, as you see those guys try to monetize their platform a little bit more, I’m sure you’ll see a lot more direct links or click to go check out that product that you just did your search for. So yeah, I think that’s just kind of.

a normal part of everyday life and will be more so moving forward.

Will Hanke (17:51)
Yeah, that’s awesome. ⁓ I know that you had mentioned that Coulisse is really committed to empowering fabricators instead of competing with them. ⁓ How does that look like in practice? What does that look

Joe Estrada (17:58)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. So we don’t have a retail outlet, right? So it’s funny at our shows, we always do an amazing job with our booth. Again, I’m biased, but if you’ve ever seen one, you know what I’m talking about. And we get people that come up to our to our booth constantly like, hey, these are awesome. Where’s your website? Can I order them right now? We don’t have a retail outlet per se. So we really empower our fabricators to be the the engine of us getting our products into the end user’s hands.

So, ⁓ you know, like we have the Sun Shading Expo coming up here in a few weeks in Indy, that first week of November. And it’s inevitable we’re going to get some dealer, designer, architect leads that come from that. And we refer those, preferably, to somebody locally in that community. So we’re pairing a local, call it dealer, with a local fabricator. It’s a win-win ⁓ of somebody that makes the certain system or shade that they’re looking for.

So we really empower our fabricators and are a true partner to them to try to help them grow their business because what’s good for them is obviously good for us too. ⁓ So everything we do, we kind of look through as the lens of a fabricator of how can we do things better or a custom workroom. ⁓ How can we do things better to help them do their business better and grow their revenue.

Will Hanke (19:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. In a world of direct to consumer pressure, ⁓ why is that B2B balance and loyalty so important for Coulisse ?

Joe Estrada (19:33)
Yeah, so, you know, it all starts with the partnerships and, know, a lot of these companies that we’re working with here in the US, our industry is a very, very old one,

right? Windows are very, very old. So there’s a lot of clients ⁓ or fabricators, workrooms that have done a really great job of building their own networks, right? Of dealers and designers. It’s taken sometimes several decades for them to build the ecosystem that they all have.

So by creating partnerships with them and getting our products to them,

we could take advantage of what they have built to a certain extent as opposed to trying to go right to the end user and try something new that we’ve never done

We kind of see it as we’re really good at what we do. We have a unique system that we can offer. And so now it’s just, hey, let’s get that system or at least parts of that system into the hands of as many workrooms and fabricators as possible. And that will eventually lead to more end users, more, you know,

architects, more building owners buying our products as a result of that as well.

Will Hanke (20:36)
Yeah, that’s a smart model. Any advice that you’d give to other supplier brands that are trying to balance growth with these strong relationships?

Joe Estrada (20:46)
Yes, so I mean, think at the end of the day, all comes down to, know, assuming you have a competitive product and a competitive price people buy from from people they like and trust,

right? So if you’re always the most likable and trustworthy one, ⁓ even if there’s bumps along the road and you create that true partnership relationship with your clients and vice versa, you’re going to lean on each

other, right? And look for solutions as opposed to, hey, here’s this problem.

Now what do we do? Well, we know what we’re going to do. We’re going to find a solution together that’s a win-win and move past it. And the other thing, I think you just focus on what you’re good at, right? Lean into what you’re really good at. Whether it’s a person or a company, we all have strengths and weaknesses maybe. ⁓ lean into what you’re good at.

And for us, that’s the B2B market. And our partners here in the US and all over the world.

have helped us grow our business in a really sustainable and meaningful way.

You know, we’re still owned by the same two brothers that started our company, know, 33 years ago now. And they’ve always kind of done things in a similar way just in terms of partnerships and relationships. And, you know, the results and the success speaks for itself.

Will Hanke (21:58)
I’d love to talk a little bit about inventory and supply. ⁓ You mentioned inventory levels are pretty strong right now, especially on fabrics and solar screens. What’s behind that strategy?

Joe Estrada (22:11)
Yeah, so that’s always kind of been the coolest way we, you know, there’s some nuance there, but we always try to keep at least six to 12 months or more of our key SKUs. So whether it’s our key fabric or our solar screen SKUs, our key motors, key components and hardware from the absolute roller system, you know, depending on who you talk to, you get a different number, but our on time delivery rate is anywhere from about 95 to 98 % here in the U S depending on the year. So that’s something that we’re really, really proud of. And

as certain things may be changing the industry and you see certain thought processes wanna get leaner and leaner on the inventory side for a various number of reasons, we’re kinda going the other way. And that’s really due to our leadership here in the Americas and our owners keeping their commitment to our clients where, ⁓ especially during COVID, everything got a little crazy, right? But a lot of people lost a lot of money and a lot of opportunities and created a whole lot of extra headache that…

that they maybe didn’t need just because of out of stocks and not having the inventory when your partners need it. So that’s something that, and our warehouse team is amazing. We have the right processes in place. So we’ve done a really great job of balancing, hey, you’d never want too much inventory, right? You have to move it, you have to sell it, and you don’t want wasted space. But we really, really have out of stocks. And if we do, it’s usually, it’s going to be here in a week or two. It’s not.

You know, I’ve heard some horror cases maybe six months or more. And at that point, if you’re the work room or the fabricator or the dealer, you’re going to have to reselect. And so if you have to reselect, ⁓ not only is that going to cause more headaches and issues, obviously,

but time kills deals. So the longer you stretch that, that, that deal or that opportunity out, the more chance there is for something to go awry and you lose that opportunity, which is just lost money, which we don’t want for anybody.

So,

Will Hanke (24:03)
Right. Right.

Joe Estrada (24:04)
Kudos to our leadership and to our owners for staying committed to doing things that way. And when you’re owned by the same guys that have built everything, I think it makes that easier to kind of stay true to that in the face of a number of issues kind of in and around our industry and the world globally.

Will Hanke (24:20)
Yeah. As a vendor, you’ve always got to play the balancing of the supply chain, right? you know, do you see, more people making purchasing decisions based on availability over brand loyalty now?

Joe Estrada (24:25)
Yep.

Absolutely, in both, but absolutely to the first point of availability. Just speaking for myself, my own clients, I know of a handful of opportunities that I think we would have, you know, I’d like to think we would have eventually gotten to have an opportunity at closing those deals. But some of them that are coming our way more and more because they’re recognizing the difference between us and maybe some others of being able to deliver.

on time at that, call it high 90 % rate where others can’t. And if it isn’t out of stock again, like it happens, right? It’s not a hundred percent, but if it’s a week or two, everybody can deal with that when it’s several months. That’s when it starts to become really, really challenging. So, just speaking for myself, I can, you know, just off the top of my head, I’m thinking of three or four opportunities that have come up this at the end of last year and this year so far, that I’m not sure we get them as quickly as we did. If not for,

essentially them trusting us to be able to deliver for them on time more than let’s say who we’re competing against. So yeah, there is a true business advantage to it. Absolutely.

Will Hanke (25:35)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. So a lot of our listeners are dealers. How do you think they can learn from how Coulisse is approaching the supply chain and stocking differently today?

Joe Estrada (25:50)
Well, you’re dealers and designers love us, I think more than anybody, right? Because we just are our branding, our marketing is very, very good. Just our style. ⁓ It’s very, very, ⁓ I would say modern. It’s very, very fashionable. So ⁓ dealers, dealers and designers, designers, think love us as much as anybody. ⁓ So in terms of what they can learn from that, I think it’s just, again, kind of building that partnership approach and attacking it from a partnership approach, not being so transactional with everything.

and then leaning into what you’re good at and, being reliable, right?

Say what you’re going to do and then do what you’re going to say.

⁓ and I think Huliss does an amazing job at doing that. And it makes our job as a sales rep really easy because you know that what you’re telling your clients, you can actually stand on it and your, teammates are going to do what’s necessary behind you to make sure that what you’re telling them comes to fruition. So, having that team approach.

and just being reliable, no matter at what point of the chain of the process that you’re in, I think will yield really, really good results for you on the business side.

Will Hanke (26:56)
It’s great that you have that awesome support. mean, it sounds like you got a great job.

Joe Estrada (27:02)
⁓ I do. do our team, you know, again, kind of going back to Chris and Maurice, they’re the two brothers. ⁓ it, Coulisse feels like one big family. So we’re a global company. We’ve got offices all over the world and representation all over the world, but we were all just together, you know, in, in a small little farm town in Eastern Netherlands last year. And it feels like one big family. So, ⁓ if I ever need engineering’s help, if I ever need marketing’s help, if I ever need to contact the warehouse supply chain,

I know who to contact and who to get a hold of and they’re always willing to lend a helping hand. And when you’re a global operation, a lot of people working remotely, you’re traveling all over the place, you have clients all over the place. It’s impossible to do this thing well if you’re not doing it as a team. So very thankful as a salesperson, makes my job much easier, which I really appreciate.

Will Hanke (27:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, for

sure. Yeah. So speaking of staying stocked and ready, let’s look at where Coulisse will be showcasing these innovations next. You mentioned earlier the Sun Shading Expo. Tell me about what you guys are doing there.

Joe Estrada (28:06)
Yes, so we will have our ⁓ booth like we always do and we will have all of our products on display. So we kind of separate it by, you know,

we’ll have like a child safe by design table,

which I actually haven’t jumped into just yet. It’s a, you know, child safety has been a huge topic of conversation the last few years all around the world, but especially here in the U.S. So we have systems, mostly our twin pull, our balanced roller, our zero gravity system.

and our motionblinds obviously that are child safe by design, right? So you don’t need a tensioner device ⁓ or something additional to make it more child safe. We have those solutions as well for our manually operated shades, but we will have them all separated. So we’ll have a child safe by design table. We’ll have a motionblinds table. We’ll likely have a wired motor, a wired motionblinds table, some of our manual solutions. We’ll have our entire US. ⁓

fabric collection on display. And then we’ll have all the individual components, hardware, motors as well to kind of get as granular as we need to with a fabricator or installer or even a dealer maybe. ⁓ So whether you want to see the really pretty finished products that everybody comes over and wants to buy a bunch of right away, or you want to look at the little bits and pieces, we’ll have it all. ⁓ And we’ll have coffee, we’ll have water. I think in the afternoon we usually switch it to the good stuff, the beer and wine as well.

Will Hanke (29:31)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (29:31)
If you’re going to be at Sunshading Expo, you have to come see the Coulisse Booth

Will Hanke (29:35)
I guess I know where I’ll be in the afternoon. Any sneak peeks that you can share with the audience?

Joe Estrada (29:38)
That’s right. Yeah, that’s right.

Yes, so we do have something that’s new with Coulisse is our absolute silent program that we will be kind of rolling out, call it next year. ⁓ So the first part of that is a silent bracket for our cassette, our medium sized cassette system. ⁓ So what that is is with our motorized shades, everybody’s always trying to, hey, how do we make the system, especially if it’s in a ⁓

cassette or if it’s in ⁓ fascia, ⁓ how do we make it quieter? How can we make it ⁓ even more quiet for the end users, right? Especially if it’s in a bedroom or so. ⁓ We’re always making tweaks to the motors themselves to make them quieter and quieter. And then we also are going to have the bracket, for example, that’s for lack of a better term, enhanced with some additional ⁓ advantages on it. ⁓

that will help make the system quieter. ⁓ So eventually we’ll have a ⁓ silent crown and drive as well that can be included. So I kind of anticipate the silent components just kind of overtaking maybe some of the other components that we’ve sold previously for our motionblinds. ⁓ But again, we’re about giving clients the option so that option will stay there. I know I will be pushing my clients to use those silent components.

just to give the end user an even better experience, right? If it adds an extra 10, 15 % enjoyment and satisfaction to the end user’s experience, I think it’s worth it.

Will Hanke (31:20)
Yeah, you and I lucked

out this year because it’s in the Midwest. We don’t have far to go, right?

Joe Estrada (31:25)
That’s right. I know. I

know. I told, ⁓ I told our team down in Miami, bring their coats and their scarves and their winter hats. So I’ll have some, I’ll have some hot cocoa waiting for them when they get up North. ⁓ and then the, the, the other thing too, sorry, we’ll is, we’ll have our wired motors. we have kind of a new comprehensive wired motor program, mostly for the contract market, but also for the residential market, especially a new build. We’ll have those on display as well. So if you’ve always, you know, if you’re an existing client with Coulisse .

Will Hanke (31:31)
Right?

Yeah.

Joe Estrada (31:53)
You’ve always wanted to work with Coulisse so you’re just interested in what we are doing on the wired motor side. Come stop by and we can show you that new program as well.

Will Hanke (32:01)
Yeah, so definitely stop by the booth for some goodies and ⁓ what’s going on. Why do you think the Sun Shading Expo is important to our industry right now?

Joe Estrada (32:05)
That’s right.

One, you can, know, especially we were talking about AI earlier, I think more and people are working remotely, myself included. No matter what, it’s still a people business. It’s still kind of a contact sport, right? So anything that gets people together from the industry, you’re going to have fun, right? But you’re also going to make a lot of progress on the business side. You can exchange ideas. ⁓ It’s kind of good to see, hey, what’s our competition doing, right? That’s a great opportunity for us to see what they’re doing. What are they highlighting? ⁓ But it’s a…

One place where you can meet clients, you can meet prospects, you can get in front of new people that maybe don’t know as much about you, or who, you hey, you always get the most out of who and what somebody is in person. ⁓ And then all the different learnings that are available, right? I’m new to the industry, so anybody that’s new, there’s a lot to learn. ⁓

Even though the industry feels smaller and smaller by the day, there’s still a lot to learn, not only about, you know, your own stuff.

but what everybody else is doing as well. So if you want to crash course and to be incredibly efficient, a trade show like Sun Shading Expo, there’s no better place to be for a week to again, kind of drink from a fire hose, all things window coverings.

so

Will Hanke (33:24)
Yeah,

yeah, and it’s massive. I’m blown away how big it is.

Joe Estrada (33:27)
It is.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s again, I think it’s really cool that it’ll be kind of centrally located in Indianapolis and the fact that it moves around to different locations throughout the country is is a huge advantage, I think.

Will Hanke (33:41)
Yeah.

Yeah. So what are you most excited about in the months ahead?

Joe Estrada (33:46)
Yes, motionblinds for sure. We are incredibly bullish on that side of our business and where we want to go with that. ⁓ Here in the Midwest, for me, there’s a ton of opportunity on the motion blind side just because we’re still a relatively newer region for Coulisse . We’re a 33-year-old

but we’ve only been in the US for about, call it 13-ish years, 13, 14 years. So the sky is still the limit for Coulisse all around the world, but especially here in the US.

So what we’re doing on the motion blind side and just on it with motorization in general, and we’ve got some stuff maybe in 2026, 2027 that’ll be coming out as well. Incredibly bullish on that side of our business, but on that side of the industry, I think you’ll see, I forget exactly what it was, but there was a link that was shared that I think it was some event with Apple.

where they spoke about Eve and they spoke about kind of smart home stuff and they had kind of a segment where they highlighted smart shade specifically as an industry. So ⁓ I think it’s as exciting of a time as ever to be in our industry and you’ll see a lot of cool stuff on display here in a few weeks and moving forward.

Will Hanke (34:57)
Yeah, that event is November 5 through 7 in Indianapolis and there are tickets available. We’ll put a link in our show notes below if anybody needs to get, grab some tickets, we’ll be able to do that. Love to talk just real quick about yourself a little bit. What’s something outside of work that keeps you creative and grounded?

Joe Estrada (35:03)
Yes.

Yeah.

grounded my friends and family that bust my chops constantly. So probably them, but no, I’m a husband, father, and a dog dad. Great group of friends, great group of colleagues. I would say you could add my colleagues to the bunch that keep me nice and grounded as well. ⁓ But as I get a little bit older, I’m playing less and less of the, you know, no more basketball and football. now golf is kind of my new obsession. ⁓

Will Hanke (35:23)
you

There you go.

⁓

Joe Estrada (35:45)
that,

that drives me nuts because just like most people that play it, I’m, not, I’m, I’m not all that good yet. So, ⁓ if I’m not doing that really just spending quality time with my friends and family. ⁓ I’m actually headed to, ⁓ to a wedding this weekend down in Cancun for, ⁓ me and one of me and my wife’s dearest friends, getting married down there.

Will Hanke (36:01)
Okay.

Joe Estrada (36:04)
So the older you get, the more responsibilities that are kind of thrown your way, the less of those types of opportunities you get. So, ⁓ I’m incredibly excited about that.

So and it’s a little sunnier down there than it is up here in Grand Rapids, Michigan this time of year. So just a touch.

Will Hanke (36:19)
Little bit. I’m headed

off to Miami next week for a conference, so it’ll be nice and warm there as well. ⁓

Joe Estrada (36:26)
Ah, yeah,

and hey, you know, while you’re down there, if you want to see the Miami is where our US headquarters is for Coulisse , if you want to see the office, the warehouse, the showroom, you let me know and we’ll get you set up for a nice tour down there and we’ll give you that. We’ll roll out the Coulisse red carpet for you. So.

Will Hanke (36:37)
nice.

That

would be great. What trends do you see like shaping the industry over the next three to five years?

Joe Estrada (36:49)
Motorization for sure, smart shades for sure. ⁓ It’s interesting kind of what’s happening in the exterior space,

right? Since COVID, I think a lot of people have jumped into that space and there’s a lot of cool stuff happening there. ⁓ But I think motorization and then AI as well, ⁓ not only just on like the actual product side, but how businesses are going to use AI to empower their employees. So I think a lot of people get a…

Will Hanke (36:59)
Yeah.

Joe Estrada (37:16)
you know, get kind of scared when they hear AI and how it may replace them. I think the better way of looking at it is like, how can you help it? How can you use AI to do your job even better and be even better at whatever it is that you do? So that’ll the effects will vary depending on what it is that you do. But I know at Coulisse we are kind of always looking to be trendsetters and stay ahead of the game, especially with new technologies. And it’s no different ⁓ with AI. So.

At our meetings last week, we got to learn a little bit about how our leadership and how our ownership is going to help empower us with AI and help us all do our jobs better and reach our goals by 2030 and beyond. So just kind of the, just like every industry, think right now it’s technology, it’s AI. In our industry, our company’s no different. So motionblinds for sure, Eve motionblinds. And then how we’re going to leverage AI to continue to grow Coulisse here, you know, in the States and abroad throughout the world.

Will Hanke (38:12)
I think that’s really smart of vendors to kind of embrace that. As a user of AI, an end user, I think you have to get over the fact that it is going to replace everything that you do. Once you kind of, there’s like a hump, right? Once you realize, oh, it can do that for me, oh, it can do this, then the whole world opens up and you’re like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

Joe Estrada (38:29)
Yes.

Yeah, and you know, just kind of on the sales side or on the marketing side, I think it’s just gonna make the great sales reps and great marketing reps amazing. I think it’s gonna make the good great because you can just, you’ll get more output with the same or less input, right? So yeah, I think, hey, what could go right? What’s the pro here? Not just looking at all the cons. And how can you use this to do your job better and help your company? And again, I’m thankful that, you know.

our company is thinking forward for us and empowering us, hey, this is how you can use this to do your job better, to service your clients better.

So yeah, if you’re an existing client of Coulisse or you will be here shortly, I think you’ll see some of the things that we’re doing make your life much easier, much smoother. It’ll save everybody time and it’ll be a good thing moving forward. Absolutely.

Will Hanke (39:24)
Yeah.

Well, Joe, this has been a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Before we wrap up, let’s tell listeners how they can connect with you and Coulisse . So what is the best way for them to learn more about Coulisse in general or connect with yourself?

Joe Estrada (39:28)
Yeah

Yeah, so on the Coulisse side of things, MotionBlinds.com first and foremost, that’s where you can learn more about our, again, everything we’re doing on the motorization side. You get a good feel for our branding as well, kind of how we position ourselves. So if you’re a dealer, designer, fabricator that wants to leverage that with your clients and have maybe a little bit of a unique offering in the market, you can get a feel on MotionBlinds.com and then Coulisse .com as well. So those are the two best places. If you have LinkedIn, Coulisse is very active on

LinkedIn, think just about daily posts going on. So you can always stay up to date with us there, at the trade shows like sun shading expo. We’ll, we’ll always be there. and then for myself, just, you know, my email, [email protected]

Will Hanke (40:13)
Thanks.

Joe Estrada (40:24)
and again, we have representatives all throughout the country, all throughout the world. So that that service their areas, you have local representation, that know their markets intimately.

And so no matter where you’re at, no matter at what point of the chain that you’re at, if you get in touch with us, we’ll get you in the hands of the right person and you help us sell more Coulisse

Will Hanke (40:45)
love that. Thanks again for being on the show. I think we’ve learned a lot, both about lease and trends that are going on, what you guys are focusing on. Any final thoughts for fabricators, dealers, or designers that want to stay ahead in this industry?

Joe Estrada (40:49)
Yeah

Yeah, don’t be so afraid of change, right? Our industry is changing a ton right now. I think embrace that. Find your lane, lean into your strengths. And if you’re looking for somebody that’s going to take a little bit more of a partnership approach, you know, a lot of the fabricators, they are family owned. That’s one thing that’s interesting. As a supplier, you know, we are also family owned. So I think there’s levels that we can connect with each other that might be a little bit different.

And if you feel stuck, if you feel like, I’m just, I’ve been doing the same thing for a while. It’s not yielding the results that I want. need something a little bit different, maybe a little bit fresher. Get in touch with us at Coulisse . We can show you at least what we can do. And then the decision is yours from there, whether or not you want to move forward. So, yeah, use us, use us for all the things that we have to offer. We’d love to be a partner if we’re not already.

Will Hanke (41:48)
Awesome. Well, that’s a wrap on today’s episode of Marketing Panes Huge thanks to Joe Estrada for joining us and sharing such valuable insights on innovation, modular systems, and smart shading tech. If this conversation gave you even one actionable idea, do us a favor.

Share it with a friend in the trade and subscribe so you don’t miss our next episode. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, or at our website, Window Treatment Marketing Pros. Thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you next time on Marketing Panes.

Joe Estrada (42:22)
Thanks Will.

Guest Profile: Will Hanke

Will Hanke has two passions: supporting our US veterans and helping window treatment and awning businesses tell their story online – providing them with increased exposure, more customers, and higher revenues. For over twenty-seven years he has helped mom & pops, startups, and multi-million dollar companies with their digital marketing strategies.

Will hosts monthly online training events and has spoken at conferences across the US on a wide variety of topics from analytics to lead generation through his company, Window Treatment Marketing Pros.

Special Invite to Sun Shading Expo 2025

Heading to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis this November 5–7? We’ve got you covered!

Use code SSENA25WTMP when registering to claim your FREE admission ticket.

Don’t miss this chance to connect with top industry leaders, see the latest innovations, and experience hands-on demos — all at no cost with our exclusive listener code.

Other Notes/Links:

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Subscribe to Marketing Panes for more expert insights, strategies, and real stories from across the window treatment and awning industry.

Spotify: https://bit.ly/4j20C49

ApplePodcast: https://bit.ly/4c2VN8s

Sun Shading Expo: Visit Website

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TRANSCRIPT

William Hanke (00:00.046)
Today, I’ve got a bowl full of questions. I’m going to pull them out one by one and we’ll talk through them. It’s time for another episode of marketing pains. The podcast about marketing for window treatment and awning companies. Hey everyone. Welcome to Marketing Panes. The podcast where we dive into real marketing conversations for window treatment and awning pros. I’m Will Hanke and today we’re doing something a little different.

So instead of a guest, I’m pulling questions straight out of real conversations I’ve had this year. Some came up during discovery calls, others from pros who are following along and just trying to figure out their marketing. These are real things people want to know whether they’re about to hire or they’re still running things themselves. So today I’ve got a bowl full of questions. I’m going to pull them out one by one and we’ll talk through them. So, all right, I’ve got my fancy Home Depot bucket here, paint bucket.

I were remodeling the bathroom downstairs. So I just thought I’d use this before I filled it with paint. So what I want to do is obviously just pull out some different questions and see what they are, answer them lives. By the way, I’ve got 27 different questions in here that we’ve identified over the course of this entire year that are the most common questions. So, all right, let me just pull one out. See what we got here. How should I deal with negative or low star reviews? All right.

Throw that in the trash. So low star reviews. The first thing that I would do is not reply. So I would write a reply to a one or two star review, but don’t publish it. You need some time to kind of chill and relax and get over that initial anger. So we tend to tell our clients, take a day or two to relax, write the review. And then after those 48 hours or so, go back and rewrite it.

And maybe even consider using chat GPT to help you make it a little bit less angry and a little bit more factual. I think people respond well to one star reviews if a very good reply comes along with it. So listen, people understand we’re running a business and sometimes customers just aren’t great. But if you have a great written review, a reply after that, then

William Hanke (02:23.885)
A lot of times that makes people think you’re more real, more legit. And I’ve even heard people comment that 0.8 stars is better than five only because it makes you look more like a real company. So we all have those customers. We all get those kinds of one-star reviews from time to time. Take some time before you reply. Make sure you craft a reply and make sure you do reply for sure, but just, you know, don’t do it fully in anger. Do it very factual.

And hopefully that will actually help your business down the road. All right, let’s grab another one out of here. Put that down. Can I spend $10 a day on Google ads? Sure. I wouldn’t recommend it. That is $300 a month. For our clients, we recommend that they start at $1,500 a month, which is what? 50 bucks a day.

Um, the reason is a couple of things. $300 a month is going to get you one or maybe two leads in a new Google ad campaign. You should expect to pay between 160 and $210 per lead. So by recommending 1500 as a starting point, you should expect to get seven or so leads out of that money out of that spend. If you’re decent at sales and you close four of those seven.

If the average job is, let’s say four grand, that’s about the average for, for a room that’s a $16,000 in revenue for $1,500 spend. Pretty nice return. If you’re spending $300 a day, one of the problems is early on in a Google ad campaign, Google puts you into a learning phase and that learning phase is learning who is going to engage with your ads. Who’s going to convert into an actual customer.

And at $300 a month, when you are getting, let’s just say $200 cost per lead, that one lead per month is not enough for Google. There’s not enough meat on the bone for Google to really do a good job of getting you in front of the right people. If you only want to spend $10 a day, I would probably recommend doing some good SEO on your site, the best you can. We’ve got a great SEO masterclass that you can go through for free.

William Hanke (04:47.053)
and then run Facebook retargeting ads. So basically people that have already been exposed to your brand in some way, you can follow them around on Facebook, probably have a hard time spending $10 a day on retargeting ads on Facebook. That’s probably where I would put my money. if you want to do Google ads, you’re going to need to be spending closer to that 40, $50 a month or a day, which sounds horrible, but.

Listen, if you can put a dollar in and $10 comes out, how many dollars do you want to put in? Now the other piece to that is the cost per lead doesn’t stay at that 160 to 210. If we can drive that cost per lead down to 150, 140, even a hundred dollars or lower, that would be fantastic, right? We’re not asking you to spend more money, but you’re getting more leads for the same spend. So that’s a better approach.

Than just trying to spend a couple hundred bucks a month on Google ads probably save that money and put it elsewhere Alright next question. Is it better to do SEO or ads first? So good aunt good question the Correct way to do this is you need to start on SEO right away And I saw one of the other questions in the bucket that was how long does SEO take SEO can take eight months nine months twelve months to really start to gain momentum

And depending on how many other people in your town are also doing SEO, you know, that could really stretch out. So you have to run ads while you’re working on your SEO. Both of these have to work in tandem. Ads are going to get the phone to ring now. SEO is going to get the phone to ring later. The idea is as your SEO really starts to gain momentum, maybe you can pull some of that ad budget back.

or divert some of that ad budget to next door or Facebook or Instagram, some of these other places and just really start to increase that momentum as things go on. But they really need to work together. All right. Let’s grab another question. Let’s see what we got here. How much time do I need to invest each month into a valuable marketing campaign?

William Hanke (07:01.299)
So this depends on if you’re able to hire a company to do it. If you’re able to hire a company like mine to do your ongoing marketing, you don’t have to spend a whole lot of time working with the marketing company monthly strategy calls or quarterly strategy calls. Make sure that everybody is working in the same direction is always a great thing. after initial onboarding and sign up, which can get a little time intensive, ongoing can be pretty small.

Now, if you’re not able to hire a marketing company, then it really just comes down to how much time can you put in? You’re busy running a business, which takes a lot of your time. Do you also have time to do the marketing piece of that as well? We provide a lot of resources to help people with that so that you can get to the point where you can actually hire a marketing company like us. But early on, it’s a lot of guerrilla marketing.

getting out there and pounding the pavement, optimizing your site, getting a well-built ad library going. There’s a lot of moving pieces to it, but it is very possible to do yourself. It’s just going to require a lot of time outside of actually running your business as well. It just depends on what that trade-off is. Is it better to spend that money and have somebody doing that? If you have that revenue, obviously, if you don’t have that revenue, then it’s a pretty much a no brainers.

All right, let’s grab another one. this is a short one. What is geofencing? So geofencing is basically drawing a fence around a specific physical area on the globe and showing ads to that area. An example could be, let’s say you got a budget blinds in town and you want to run ads to people that are in their parking lot.

Is it the best use of your spend? Probably not because if somebody has already gone to budget and decided that’s where they’re going to go or Home Depot or Costco or wherever, most likely that’s where they’re going to make their decision, right? If they suddenly see an ad for ABC blinds in town, they’re probably not going to engage with that business. So maybe not the best use of your money, but you know, if you can get it really cheap, there’s, can run geofencing.

William Hanke (09:19.867)
ads without, you know, without issue, but that’s what it is. Basically just drawing a, a, not really a square drawing some sort of shape around a location and showing ads specifically in that location. All right. Let’s see what we got next. Do next door ads work. So about maybe close to a year ago now next door revamped their ad platform. Prior to that, it was pretty sketchy.

Wasn’t great, but the revamp that they did really up, up to their game on the ad side of things. So do they work? Yes, they work fantastically. You can really dial down on subdivisions, zip codes, very specific areas that you want your ads to show. And you can get pretty direct with those. We have a lot of clients that obviously start with Google ads. Maybe they’ll add Facebook ads as a secondary or.

Yelp or Nextdoor as that secondary where they really just want to gain more momentum. I would not recommend Nextdoor as the first piece of your strategy. Google ads is pretty much always that piece, but Nextdoor ads do work. You can get very local. You can get very specific on affluent parts of your town, those sorts of things, and really reach out to the right.

clientele. I think the bigger jobs are in those, you know, more affluent areas typically or new construction, those types of things. But yes, absolutely. They do work. So, all right, let’s pull another one out of here. Is it worth signing up for online directories? Yes. So online directories, business type directories are a fantastic citation related tool. And one of the things that Google looks at

In order to rank people in the Google maps area is the amount of citations they have. Citations are mentions of your business around the web where it lists your name and your address and your phone. Typically those things, it might add a link to your business, but it might not. Google smart enough to know if name, address, and phone match that they’ll actually count that as a link for your business. So the more online directories that you can get listed on.

William Hanke (11:41.96)
the better off you are. Now the more relevant, meaning industry related or local related business directories that you can be on, those are even better because they send signals to Google about who you are, but also that you work in this specific area. So those are fantastic. Now we actually have an online directory called America’s best window treatments. That is a fantastic place to get your business listed. It has been.

noted as a citation source in a lot of things, including chat GPT. So we have clients or we have customers now that are going to chat GPT, typing in who is the best window treatment company near me and chat GPT. Those language models are using citation sources to make those decisions and recommendations.

for the best company near this person, this searcher. Absolutely. Business directories are a great place to start. A couple ideas there. So we use brightlocal.com as the source for building citations and monitoring those citations. There’s also Yext. Y-E-X-T is fairly popular. There’s one called Moz Local, M-O-Z Local. And one of the best well-known ones is out of Canada. It’s called Whitespark.

Whitespark.ca. Cool thing about Whitespark is you can go and type in like what you do, window treatments, and then you can put your area and it will find you a lot of local business directories that you can add yourself to. Now, in addition, obviously joining the chamber, the BNI, if any of those list you on their sites, those are great ways of getting additional very local citations. And another way to do that is Little League Sponsorships.

Sites like that where you’re typically donating money in exchange for some sort of sponsorship. Those tend to work really well, although a lot of times they expire after a season or a certain amount of time. All right. Next question. Are trade shows worth it or a waste of time? So trade shows, home shows, those sorts of things. Most of our clients do these in their local town, their local home show.

William Hanke (13:55.513)
And absolutely worth their time. In most cases, they’re not terribly expensive to get a booth at these shows. is a great brand exposure play. If you have something there that you can give away, let’s say a brochure or something, maybe a little nicer than just a flyer. But if there’s something you can give away where people will be able to reference that at a later point, I think those are all great options. And again,

a great brand exposure play more than lead generation. It’s just another opportunity for you to stay top of mind. Now on the other side of that is trade shows where you’re going to the sun shading expo for, for instance, and looking at all the vendors that are offering services for your business. These are great to go to as well. If you’re looking for new vendors.

If you’re looking to upgrade some of the things that you offer, maybe add some new lines in. course, these are great places to go. Everybody’s in one spot. You can have those conversations. You can learn more about their products. A lot of times you can see their products. You can play with their products. You can ask questions to their reps or to their salespeople about how the products work. And then of course, get pricing all of that as well. So absolutely worth going and checking out.

A lot of our clients will go every two to three years, it seems like, and they’ll usually time it around when the trade show is a little closer. So travel is not as expensive. For instance, we’ll be at the Sun Shading Expo here in November. I think it’s November 5 through 7. And that is a fantastic show. If you’re wanting to look for new vendors related to window treatments, awnings.

exterior shading. All of those are going to be in one place at this show in Indianapolis this year. Very excited to be at the show. And if it’s centrally located this year, which is really nice. So if you’re looking for an opportunity to go to a trade show, that’s probably the best one that you can go to right now. I’ll put a link to that in the description below at sunshadingexpo.com. All right. Let’s finish up with one more question here. I’m going to choose.

William Hanke (16:11.784)
this one. What sort of report should I expect from a marketing agency? Great question. So at the end of the day, the best report is again, as I mentioned earlier, you put a dollar in and $10 came out. That’s a great report, right? You know that things are working. Now that’s pretty generic because you need to get a little bit more specific about maybe you put a dollar in one

program and $20 came out, you put it in another program and no money came out, right? So you still want to see some sort of lead source report that shows by lead source, how many leads are we getting? How many of those are turning into opportunities and how many of those are we actually closing? And having that information by lead source is really going to help you with strategy and show you, you know, we put money into Google ads.

And we got this out, we put money into Facebook retargeting. We got this out. We put money into some door hangers and this is what we got out of that. So having all that tracking in place and then looking at it by source is really the ultimate goal for you to know what’s working, what to do more of and what maybe not to do more of as well. That is probably the best report that we provide for our customers.

because it is the one that tells them if it’s working or not. The average customer needs around 12 touches before they engage with a business. 12 touches is a lot of touches. So maybe you’re running Facebook ads and maybe you’re boosting a post on Facebook and they see you as they’re scrolling through. They might not engage with that, but just the fact that you’re staying top of mind because they scrolled past you on that.

That does count and it should get some attribution at the end of the day towards creating that final sale. However, typically we only are able to track the first attribution, the first touch point with a business and, or the last one, the last thing they did before they actually set the appointment. But in reality, there’s a lot of other pieces in between there that you don’t get. sometimes those lead source attribution reports are not a hundred percent accurate.

William Hanke (18:28.444)
but should still give you a decent idea. If you’re running things like call tracking on your Google business profile and on your Facebook ads and your Google ads, you’ll be able to directly tell that this phone call came because of this platform. So that’s nice. But again, there were probably touches before that that helped encourage that person to decide to reach out to you. Lots of different ways you can go about this. And you should be doing a lot of these things.

It’s just hard to be able to do all of these things and know that they’re working or not working. So cost per lead is probably another report item that we always report on because at the end of the day, that’s what clients want to know. How much did I spend to acquire leads this month? And what was the conversion rate for those leads? So I could have got a hundred leads, but if they were really bad quality, I only closed three of them.

That’s not as great as getting 25 leads and closing 50 % of them. Right. So it doesn’t just count on eyeballs or impressions on your brand, but more importantly cost per lead. How much did it cost you to actually get a lead? And then did they convert into actual business actual signed proposals? All right. If any of these questions sounded familiar, you’re not alone.

These are the things that window treatment pros are really asking and talking through them helps them make smarter decisions about where to spend their time and money. If today’s episode gave you something useful, share it with another business owner in the trade. And don’t forget to follow Marketing Panes for more practical straight shooting marketing advice. Thanks for listening and I will catch you next. As the industry evolves, staying informed about trends and innovations is crucial for success. Embracing the future of window treatments means adopting new technologies and design concepts that meet changing consumer preferences. By doing so, you position your business to thrive in a competitive landscape. As you continue to refine your approach, consider exploring innovative marketing strategies for window treatments that can elevate your business. Engaging with your audience through social media and targeted advertising can create lasting connections and boost your visibility. Remember, the right strategies can transform your brand and lead to greater success.

Guest Profile: Joseph Cloute

Joseph Cloute is the owner of Bumble Bee Blinds of Madison, Wisconsin, bringing over 20 years of customer service and hospitality experience to the window covering industry. Known for his people-first approach, Joseph is passionate about delivering a seamless, worry-free experience from consultation to installation. With a background inspired by his father’s craftsmanship and a deep love for design, he’s committed to quality, integrity, and helping people love where they live.

Whether you’re in the window treatment & awning industry, exploring franchise ownership, or just curious about what it takes to build a business from zero, Joseph’s story is packed with insights and inspiration.

Special Invite to Sun Shading Expo 2025

Heading to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis this November 5–7? We’ve got you covered!

Use code SSENA25WTMP when registering to claim your FREE admission ticket.

Don’t miss this chance to connect with top industry leaders, see the latest innovations, and experience hands-on demos — all at no cost with our exclusive listener code.

Other Notes/Links:

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Subscribe to Marketing Panes for more expert insights, strategies, and real stories from across the window treatment and awning industry.

Spotify: https://bit.ly/4j20C49

ApplePodcast: https://bit.ly/4c2VN8s

Sun Shading Expo: Visit Website

Books Mentioned

• The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss
• Blue Ocean Strategy by W. Chan Kim & Renee Mauborgne
• Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara
• The Road Less Stupid by Keith J. Cunningham
• Outgrow by Alex Goldfayn

Video

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Welcome to another episode of marketing panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke. And today we’re talking with someone that brings a fresh perspective and a whole lot of range from biotech labs to culinary kitchens, to building a business from scratch.

His career is anything but typical. He’s now the owner, operator of Bumble Bee Blinds in Madison, Wisconsin. We’ll talk about what made him choose to be in the window treatment niche, why he bet on a franchise, and how he’s approaching growth in a saturated market with a brand new name and a ton of drive.

If you’ve ever wondered what it’s like to start from zero and build fast, this one’s for you. My guest today is Joseph Cloute He’s the owner of Bumble Bee Blinds. He brings a strong background in project management, operations, and customer success to the window covering industry. With a proven track record in driving efficiency, fostering client relationships, and leading teams to exceed expectations,

Joseph combines operational excellence with a passion for delivering outstanding results for his customers. Joseph, thank you for being on today.

Joseph Cloute (01:21)
Will thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here today.

Will Hanke (01:25)
Yeah, no problem. So as I mentioned in the intro, you started kind of in the biotech world. Let’s start with that story. How has somebody who’s a microbiology grad and a chef, from what I understand, end up in window treatments?

Joseph Cloute (01:42)
That’s the question I continue to answer in every networking group, et cetera. One of my answers is always, well, the guidance counselor in high school didn’t quite have window treatments franchises, like one of the options that you pick, right? So here we are.

Will Hanke (01:46)
You

Joseph Cloute (02:02)
at the age of 44 starting a business. I’ve had 26 jobs throughout my lifetime. Yeah, and so…

you know, kind of what led to this was just not quite being fulfilled in each of those circumstances. And so this was, you know, not only a venture that I took to try to integrate myself and be more a part of the community, but I’m also looking for that fulfillment. And part of that is through serving others and serving others through providing them window treatments and window covering solutions.

Will Hanke (02:37)
I like

that I had a similar path. No matter how many jobs you take, you feel like there’s just something out there. I ended up reading The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss and that’s really what kind of spurred me into action to, okay, how can I actually quit my job and start this thing for real? ⁓ Yeah, good stuff.

Joseph Cloute (02:47)
Tim Ferriss, absolutely.

You’re after

my heart when you start talking about, you know, reading books, continuing to discover yourself, finding, you know, your skill set and what personality traits, you know, you can utilize to the best to serve others, right?

Will Hanke (03:12)
Yeah, for

sure. I’ll have to ask you at the end about your favorite books or the ones you’re reading lately. So we’ll do that. ⁓ So tell me what attracted you to Bumble Bee specifically. There’s a lot of different franchise options out there. ⁓ How did you land there versus all the other ones?

Joseph Cloute (03:29)
Yeah, ⁓ was an interesting journey that started with the Entrepreneur Source. So they reached out to me and I actually utilized them and we looked at a number of franchises and part of that journey is some personality tests, some like…

get to know you with your coach and stuff like that. And I won’t lie to you, the first three that he put on my discovery center, one of the first ones was Bumble Bee Blinds and I just looked at him and I was like, I thought we got to know each other. ⁓ You put blinds on here? Like, what are we doing? And he’s like, trust the process, be curious.

ask questions and be open to new opportunities. And honestly, the more I learned about each franchise and their model and, you know, what the franchisor, you know, is doing with you and the partnership that they were creating, this just made more and more sense. And, you know, on the day that I signed the franchise agreement, Dwayne called me and he was just like, so do you trust me now?

You

Will Hanke (04:46)
great. I love that. ⁓ You mentioned this was your fourth career out of 26 jobs. What lessons from those past lives are helping you now?

Joseph Cloute (04:51)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I would say the…

Finding control in the chaos of being a chef and working in kitchens It has been a big one because things get a little chaotic and you know I will never forget being at training with Bumble Bee and they were like, you know, all right Are you ready for this like journey? And you know, they’re trying to prep people who have like, you know lived in corporate life and lived in this you know, little bubble that they create in corporate and I was like Yeah, so like I was a chef

for seven years and they’re like you’re gonna be fine. We don’t think you’re gonna be gonna struggle here at all. So you know that was a big part of it and with working in customer service whether it was in project management or whether it was in the culinary you know that level of hospitality right culinary school they were like if you are you gonna choose to be a cook or you’re gonna choose to be a culinary?

Like, you gonna be a master of your craft or are just gonna come here and put in the time and collect a paycheck? And that is my approach to my business now. It is, I wanna be master of my craft. I wanna be the go-to person who knows not only the systems, but the products and the operations and any of the, you know, accounting and business portion and how to network, how to grow, all of the things just full circle.

I want to be a master of it all and you know part of that is that background that came from through kitchens and through project management as well.

Will Hanke (06:38)
while you’ve had a pretty wild ride, if your next move wasn’t blinds, what would it have been?

Joseph Cloute (06:45)
Great question. I think about that often. ⁓ I would say it would be my 27th job, which would have probably led to my 28th job, which would have led to my 29th job. So I was happy to find this.

Will Hanke (06:53)
Great.

Yeah, makes sense. So I know that you just recently started with the Bumble bee franchise. How far are you into that?

Joseph Cloute (07:08)
Yeah, we just celebrated 100 days.

Will Hanke (07:11)
100 days, okay. So how’s it going so far? Any surprises, anything that you didn’t expect?

Joseph Cloute (07:19)
⁓ I think Bumble bee Blinds set us up ⁓ with at least expectations. Has there been surprises? Well, well. ⁓ I don’t know if you’ve lived in America since January, but there’s been a couple of surprises that have occurred. ⁓ So those were unexpected. ⁓ I signed paperwork on January 6th.

Will Hanke (07:32)
you

tell me more.

Joseph Cloute (07:43)
I don’t know that any of us could have predicted some of the economic and tariff volatility that we’ve had. ⁓ I would say unprecedented, but you’ve been in the business longer than me, so maybe you can chime in on that one.

Will Hanke (07:57)
There’s always ups and downs in the world of pricing. hahaha More ups than downs.

Joseph Cloute (07:59)
That’s a good blanket statement. like that. ⁓

But yeah, I would say outside of that, ⁓ the biggest surprises would be, you know, firing ⁓ my design consultant on day one and taking over that role, ⁓ learning a bit about myself and the fact that I can execute.

as a salesman at a high level. ⁓ That was unexpected to me. ⁓ Even my family when I’m like, yeah, so I do all the sales and they’re like, okay, and how’s that going? And I’m like, actually, it’s awesome. I like, I really enjoy it. It’s one of my favorite parts of the business is being out there with the clients, ⁓ helping them find solutions, solving their problems and that kind of stuff. ⁓ But overall, it’s been going better than expected. ⁓

I am hitting the corporate franchise KPIs that they set out. So meeting their expectations, I would say, as a franchise owner. ⁓ Not meeting my own because I don’t know if I ever will because that’s just the personality type that I am.

My girlfriend often asks me when I’m gonna celebrate my wins and I’m like, well, when I get some and she’s like, you just hit all of your numbers for the month, that’s a big win and I’m like, wow, those are their numbers, they’re not mine.

Will Hanke (09:36)
Right, it’s good to ⁓ have a goal in place and then obviously try to exceed that goal. So, very good. On the franchise side of things, any challenges or things that you didn’t expect there?

Joseph Cloute (09:40)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

I wouldn’t say challenges. I would say they’ve created more and more opportunities. They continue to bring on vendors, ⁓ which, you know, A, was part of the reason why I chose Bumble bee Blinds, as there is other window treatment franchises. ⁓ But they continue to kind of exceed those expectations of pushing themselves to do more.

to help the franchisees more to find and solve issues that are currently happening, right? Whether that’s bringing on new vendors, either from the marketing side, from insurance side, from even the window treatment vendors themselves, right?

Will Hanke (10:38)
Yeah, sounds like they really set you up for success.

Joseph Cloute (10:40)
Absolutely, yeah.

Will Hanke (10:42)
That’s great. And you mentioned KPIs, so they give you some sort of KPIs, metrics that they would assume you would want to hit, ⁓ they’ve this before.

Joseph Cloute (10:51)
Absolutely. One

of the things that you go out there for your discovery day and that KPI Dashboard spoke to me so much because I am fairly competitive by nature. So if you give me, here’s your carrot, like go get it. I’m gonna get after it and I’m gonna hustle and I’m gonna do everything in my power to…

to hit those marks and then if you’re putting me up against the other franchisees, now we’re talking.

Will Hanke (11:23)
Yeah, yeah, that makes it a lot more fun. ⁓ Especially when they have, typically the franchises have a year end get together and the top earners are up there on the stage and everybody in the audience is thinking they wish they were up there.

Joseph Cloute (11:26)
yeah.

Or strategizing how you’re going to be up there next year for sure.

Will Hanke (11:43)
Right,

for sure, yeah. So Madison is a pretty competitive market. How are you carving out your own space there?

Joseph Cloute (11:52)
Yeah, I was gonna ask you a question right back about that Will. Talk to me what you consider a competitive market.

Will Hanke (11:56)
Okay.

⁓ I think the first thing would be lots of other window treatment companies. And in my world, lots of window treatment companies that are actually doing digital marketing or marketing online. Yeah.

Joseph Cloute (12:13)
Gotcha. Yeah.

I mean, I did my competitive market analysis, ⁓ you know, prior to even signing on with Bumble bee and I saw nothing but opportunities in the market. I think it was something that helped guide me to be like, yeah, this is a yes. I can see an opportunity here where I can bring

my skill set and exceed expectations here. But yeah, I think some of the big ones is, you know, just getting out in the community is has been a space that I’ve carved out. ⁓ You know, whether it’s a chamber event, whether it’s a networking event, I don’t see my competitors at any of the events. I don’t see them in networking groups. I don’t see them participating in the chamber. And as we kind of touched on earlier,

Will Hanke (12:53)
Yeah.

Joseph Cloute (13:07)
That was one of the reasons why I got into this. I wanted to be a part of and help the community and get to the point where I’m sponsoring things and, you know, just helping more and more people. And part of that was being able to go to these groups and provide, you know, a level of service to them and help mentor people in other spaces. And, you know, this is really allowing me to do that. And, and I just, you know, that’s my niche, I would say that I’ve carved out is I’m

out there there in the community, networking, and doing that kind of stuff.

Will Hanke (13:44)
Yeah, yeah. Since we’re going to have some book references here, if you’ve ever read Blue Ocean Strategy, that sounds very similar to what you’re talking about. Even though there is a decent amount of physical competition in the area, if they’re not doing the right things, that’s an opportunity, no matter how many there are.

Joseph Cloute (14:04)
Yeah, absolutely.

Will Hanke (14:06)
Yeah, very good. ⁓ Since we’re talking about marketing, any marketing or sales moves that have helped you stand out early on?

Joseph Cloute (14:14)
Yeah, I would say you talk about the brand setting us up for success. ⁓ One of the things is you get a vehicle, your vehicle’s wrapped, and if you haven’t seen a Bumble bee Blind wrapped vehicle driving around your community, let’s just say they stand out. ⁓ My minivan that is wrapped in ⁓ bright yellow with Bumble bee decals,

Will Hanke (14:26)
Okay.

Joseph Cloute (14:44)
His name is ⁓ Ricky Babee and he’s got his own Insta handle so you can follow him around. ⁓ But, you know, that kind of stuff. You know, we’re out there intentionally parking the vehicle in prime spots. ⁓ You know, we chose to do the Fourth of July parade, which we made a family affair. So grandma was driving the vehicle.

My son dressed up as the Bumble bee Transformer. ⁓ You know, playing off of the bee stuff. We have a Bumble bee costume as well. And my girlfriend walked along too and we handed out a of honeys. I mean, it was such a great day and now, you know, my son who’s six is just like, when do we get to do the next parade? I was like, well, kind of 4th July is about that time. So next year. So, you know, just things like that where we’ve

Will Hanke (15:14)
Thanks.

Ha ⁓

Right?

Wow.

Joseph Cloute (15:40)
Taken marketing, we’ve made it fun. We’ve made it something that, you know, the family gets to participate in. And I think that speaks to the level of wanting to be a part of the community.

Will Hanke (15:51)
Yeah, yeah, the brand makes it easy to have a lot of fun too.

Joseph Cloute (15:55)
Absolutely, absolutely. And we’ll get into those Bumble bee puns, I think, a little bit later.

Will Hanke (16:01)
Perfect, that’s great. So let’s dive in a little bit on the franchise side. I’d like to educate some listeners that maybe don’t know the differences or the pros and cons. For anybody who maybe is unfamiliar with Bumble bee Blinds in particular, what sets that brand apart?

Joseph Cloute (16:18)
Yeah, Bumble bee Blinds is one of nine home service franchises that is run by horsepower brands. So when you talk about things that are at that scale, you know, that increases not only their buying power, it increases, you know, vendors coming to them to want to work with them. And then they can spread that across all of their home services, Bumble bee Blinds being one of them.

So that’s been really great. I think they are at the front end of kind of utilizing technology. You know, they have ⁓ an AI ride along tool that they use so that way I can work on, you know, how I’m communicating with my clients and just get better at that type of stuff. They have an AI system to just help us with.

general everyday questions, whether it be product specific stuff, whether it be, you know, where do I find this document type of stuff. So leaning into those kinds of things, you know, from coming from the corporate side and working as a project manager in the pharmaceutical space, you know, we were on the front end of that and I see that with them as well. And it’s just helped gain so many efficiencies that, you know, I wouldn’t be able to.

put together have if I chose the independent route.

Will Hanke (17:44)
Oh, for sure. Thing that comes to my mind is SOPs, just having those already in place, even if they were built for, I don’t know if they have maybe a plumbing niche, right? But the end product is mostly the same, right? When it comes to SOPs, they change a little bit here and there, but having that horsepower, for lack of better term, is fantastic.

Joseph Cloute (18:10)
Absolutely. You know, the online learning that we did prior to opening as I continue to expand my team, they have learning paths for every role that you’re going to have and do trainings and all of those things, which absolutely speaks to me of having those systems and structures in place.

Will Hanke (18:32)
so you mentioned the online learning that you took early on. Is that what led you to let your designer go?

Joseph Cloute (18:42)
I would say it was more the hands-on stuff. you know, early on, I didn’t really know the personality type that would be successful in that role. And now that I’m doing it, I think my next hire is going to be a much better fit. ⁓ you can imagine not living in the window space, not being a salesperson myself. ⁓

and hiring someone who you think is a good fit because of their background and history. And then you’re like, ⁓ like this is not quite right and not going to be a good fit. you know, and part of it was the team and, you know, leaning on the franchise themselves. Like they’re trying to look out for you and your best interests and having, you know, that those voices as well to help guide you in.

in a spot where you’re learning just as quickly as everyone else ⁓ has been a big help and it was probably one of the best decisions I made for the business.

Will Hanke (19:47)
That’s great. When I started my business 28 years ago now, ⁓ I used to always roll my eyes at the personality tests and those kinds of things. But at some point somebody did one for me and I was like reading it. I’m like, my God, this is…

This is like all the things, this is how you should talk to me, all these different things. And it really opened my eyes to the hiring side, that it’s not just experience, but it’s also, is this person going to be a good fit for our culture?

Joseph Cloute (20:17)
Yeah, exactly. And trust me, ⁓ it will be part of the new onboarding process because it just makes you a better leader of other people because you’re able to speak to them in a way that they can hear you, right?

Will Hanke (20:33)
Right, yeah, very good. So since you’re part of a larger network, how does that kind of ⁓ hive vibe play out day to day?

Joseph Cloute (20:44)
Yeah, we have a great owners chat. ⁓ We do call it the hive. You know, each weekend in my Bee & I group, the buzz in the hive this week is, you know, and it’s something new every week. ⁓ But it’s been awesome. ⁓ I think that was one of the things that also attracted me to Bumble bee was the support you get from the other owners. They all want to see you succeed because when…

one franchise succeeds, everybody succeeds and it’s all good for the brand. ⁓ So whether it’s sharing resources, whether it’s sharing, you know, print collateral or something like that, or just answering a question of like, which vendor do I pick for XYZ and who’s using this marketing team and you know, how are you seeing? So having that resource and somebody who’s in that all the time has been great.

And then equally, I have people who I’ve built what I feel like is going to be lifelong friendships, both on the personal side. And, you know, we talk family, we talk kids, we talk business. You know, I’m sending pictures of the food I just cooked, you know, those types of things that just keep you engaged. And, you know, and then when you do go through those, you know, as you said, there’s ups and downs. When you do go through those downs, you know, they’re there to.

lift you back up and support you because they’ve all been there before.

Will Hanke (22:14)
That’s great. I love that. How much freedom do you have to market and operate locally?

Joseph Cloute (22:20)
Yeah, quite a bit. Like I said, it’s been awesome that they have vetted a bunch of vendors that are available to us. But equally, you know, we’re allowed to utilize them or not utilize them. ⁓ It’s great that they screen them. That creates a huge efficiency on my side. If I was just typing into the Google machine, you know, who should I use for digital marketing?

⁓ and trying to sift through the thousands of companies doing that type of stuff, right, would be really difficult. So the fact that they have great relationships and they’ve vetted these out ⁓ really is a benefit of the franchise itself. But also there’s plenty of room. I’m part of my neighborhood associations newsletter and email blast, right? Something that I wanted to do to give back to the neighborhood association, you know.

I pay them a fee to be advertised, but I was like, this is literally my neighborhood. I want to help all of my neighbors achieve whatever goals they have for their house. So best way to do that is be a part of the newsletter that helps sponsor all of the things that we do, the Turkey Trot, the Go Meet Santa Claus, the Egg Hunt, right? So, you know, it just allowed that and it’s great that Horsepower equally allows us to do those kinds of things.

Will Hanke (23:48)
That’s great. Are there any systems or tech tools from corporate that you’ve really leaned on?

Joseph Cloute (23:54)
Yeah, well, one of our brand differentiators with Bumble bee is the fact that we have, we utilize a large number of vendors. So I have like six vendors that I work with on a pretty regular basis. And I don’t know if you know this, but each one of those vendors likes to utilize their own platform and system for ordering, for tracking, for everything.

Will Hanke (24:18)
course.

Joseph Cloute (24:19)
So leaning into the Solitech software that Bumble bee Blinds has available to us, where it’s one platform that works with all the different vendors. So I only had to learn one system versus six systems. And then, you know, the amount of orders and remakes goes way down when you’re used to using the same software over and over again. So that’s been a huge tool. I think we touched on the

the AI ride along, ⁓ being able to hear yourself, find little tweaks, ⁓ the AI tool where it’s like, listen to this minute and a half of your three hour appointment. This is something we could clean up, right? Those types of things. You don’t have to listen to the whole thing. ⁓ Huge, huge benefits. I mean, we’re all trying to get better every day, right? So to have that kind of a resource at your disposal has been great.

Will Hanke (25:04)
wow, great.

Yeah. What advice would you give to somebody who’s comparing the franchise model versus just kind of starting from scratch?

Joseph Cloute (25:24)
Yeah, I think one of the biggest things and I had the benefit of the entrepreneur source doing it, but you got to learn more about yourself. And you talked about taking a personality test, great way to do it, right? But I mentioned, you know, figuring out the skills that I had that I wanted to, you know, utilize in this venture, right? So I think finding that right fit is important. And then

Thinking about it as, you know, the franchise is not your boss. They’re a partner in this. So if you think about it as a partnership and if you were going into a marriage or something like that, is this somebody who, you know, you wanna partner with for the next 10 years? You know, are they gonna hold up their end of the bargain and be a good partner and, you know, want the best for you or not? And then equally, you know,

thinking about how long your runway is. Because the ramp up, I mean, I wouldn’t be in the place I am 100 days in if it were not for the franchise. I can say that 100%. ⁓ So if you have enough runway and you think the independent route is the way you want to go, awesome. But I mean, the ramp up is intense even for having the franchise and the large amount of resources that I think we already touched on.

Will Hanke (26:55)
Yeah, yeah, so let’s talk a little bit about the first 100 days. ⁓ What’s the biggest mind shift that you’ve had since you started?

Joseph Cloute (27:04)
Yeah, and you kind of talked about a couple of things through your book reading and knowledge and stuff like that. But I have a really good gratitude practice, you know, waking up every day, thinking about the things that I’m grateful for, writing those down, think about where I want to go this next week, this next month, and those types of things has been really key.

And then I always say, even though, you know, it’s chaos everywhere and I’m learning as I go and those types of things, I never tell the universe I’m busy. I have the capacity to take on anything that you want to bring into my space. And with that, you know, I always see more and more appointments and leads come through and opportunities continue to come my way because I’m calling them in by, you know, if I woke up every day and said,

I’m so busy. I’m exhausted. All of those things. I’m saying stop, stop, stop. Like don’t give me more leads. Don’t give me more opportunities. Don’t give me more people to help. And so I’m always focused on that. Like I have the capacity to help so many people. So just keep sending them my way. And then I would say the other thing was I didn’t realize this until I was actually in it, but I’m in the solutions business and it just happens to be window treatments, right?

I’m here to solve problems and help you. I’m not here to sell you anything. And that came through, I wouldn’t have known that had I not had the opportunity to be out there doing the consultations.

Will Hanke (28:39)
What is the saying? ⁓ They don’t need a drill, they just need a hole. Sell what they actually need, not the tool to get it there. That’s great. I’ve got an accountability partner I meet with every Monday and we do something called Win the Week. And basically it’s what is the thing that if on Friday you got done this week, you would consider this week as a one week.

Joseph Cloute (28:47)
Exactly, exactly.

Will Hanke (29:06)
⁓ And I think those mind shifts mindset kind of shifts are really important for business owners

Joseph Cloute (29:12)
Yeah, absolutely. Accountability partners are great. And that’s one other thing with that whole gratitude thing, you know, and you got to be grateful for that person too, right?

Will Hanke (29:15)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Any unexpected skills that turned out to be crucial?

Joseph Cloute (29:28)
man, yes. ⁓ So one of the 26 jobs was actually a professor of microbiology. And so I did that for a couple of semesters to cover maternity leave. I didn’t realize that being an educator and the skills that I learned teaching other people was going to be such a huge part of this. ⁓ So as I go into, you know, consultations, I’m there to educate.

Will Hanke (29:29)
you

Okay, yeah.

Joseph Cloute (29:57)
And if you want to utilize some of the things that I have and they solve these problems, that’s great. I mean, that’s what I’m here for. That’s why we’re here. But, you know, it’s providing that transparency and educating the client on why we’re choosing this, why we’re not choosing something else. And equally, most people don’t know most of the products that are out there. Like things have come so far in the last…

five to 10 years, whether it’s motorization or some of these other type of coverings that we have the opportunity to sell that, you know, seeing their eyes open up of like, I’ve never even seen this before. This is awesome. I’m going to be the talk of all of my friends. So those types of things have been really great. And then I would say the other one is active listening. ⁓ I think it’s, you know,

Will Hanke (30:42)
you

Joseph Cloute (30:53)
a great tool. It’s something that I continue to come back on over and over again. You know, you’re not only listening to what they’re saying, you’re listening to how they feel about different things, right? And trying to work with them through all of those things to find that right solution.

Will Hanke (31:13)
Yeah, yeah, very, very important. ⁓ Biggest win, personal or professional?

Joseph Cloute (31:20)
Yeah, I think one of them and this is, you you talked about what your next job was going to be. I almost said coaching and coaching, not like sports coaching, but coaching other people, you know, in whatever thing they’re in, right? Place they’re in in their life, any of those things. So one of the opportunities that I’ve had is to be a mentor for some of the other franchisees and

that is like my wheelhouse. Like let’s talk all the stuff. Let’s talk the business part of stuff. Let’s talk about, like you said, your mindset. ⁓ Who are you reading? What podcasts are you listening to? You know, how are you bringing in information to help you grow as a person and then your business will grow equally, right? So the mentorship for sure. And then one of the other things that’s been a big win is kind of that

seeing the transformation of people’s homes and then hearing some of the feedback, ⁓ you know, the success stories of like, my gosh, my kid’s sleeping for 10 hours straight and they were used to be up like at the crack of dawn or not be able to fall asleep during the summer or those types of things because you’ve found a solution that’s helped them, right? And studies continue to come out about kids in sleep and, you know, adults in their sleep and the things that you need.

to have a successful sleep. I think window treatments plays a huge role in that. So I think that’s been a huge win as well.

Will Hanke (32:54)
That’s awesome. So let’s switch it up a little bit. I got a couple of quick hits for you and we’ll jump into some of that hive humor that you mentioned earlier. What’s your go-to pitch when a homeowner is skeptical about going maybe with somebody that’s only 100 days in?

Joseph Cloute (33:04)
Yeah, let’s do it.

Yeah, my favorite one is, well, I’m not retiring anytime soon, because I just got into this, right? I’m going be here for a while. So whether we want to move forward right now, whether it makes sense next year, I’m still going to be here. Call me up. I’ll be ready to help you whenever you are.

Will Hanke (33:18)
You

Yeah, I like that. I also know that you like puns, which I’m a huge fan of, especially one liners. One liners are my favorite. But what is your favorite dad joke that you’ve used with a customer?

Joseph Cloute (33:51)
Well, we kind of talked about, you know, ⁓ this is the thing I’ve been buzzing about all week, ⁓ you know, is always a good one. And then I always like to leave people with, you know, Bumble bee Blinds of Madison, we’re your window covering specialists and we have prices that won’t sting. Just kind of slip that one in there.

Will Hanke (34:10)
Nice.

I like that. ⁓ What’s your go-to strategy if you know a competitor is also quoting the same job?

Joseph Cloute (34:20)
Yeah, I think it goes back to the educational piece that I was kind of talking about where, you know, I always try to let them know that you got to be comparing apples to apples, right? And equally, you know, we talked about solving your specific problems, and I think this is going to do that. And the value that that’s going to bring is probably more important than the price point oftentimes. So if you’re just shopping price, like I try to convert to

value and quality over just shopping who’s going to come to the lowest price. ⁓ And then I always leave them with, you know, I would love the opportunity to walk through your other estimate and discuss it with you and compare it to mine ⁓ and tell you why we chose specific things versus what they chose. you know, if I never talk poorly about my competitors equally, they’re out there just like me with the family at home.

doing their best every day. So I would rather do it in a way that is continuing to educate the client versus choose me because they’re terrible people, right?

Will Hanke (35:31)
Right. Good, good. What is one thing that every business owner should automate right away?

Joseph Cloute (35:41)
They’re window coverings. Will, come on, let’s go. Motorization is the future. Tell Alexa to turn it up, turn it down, show you the sunrise, all the things, automate your window coverings.

Will Hanke (35:43)
you

Bye.

I like that. That’s pretty smart. Then you know what you’re talking about, right? Real-world example.

Joseph Cloute (36:01)
Hey, it’s made me

a better salesperson to install, to learn the tack, to do the motorization trainings and to have it in my own home.

Will Hanke (36:12)
Perfect, perfect. ⁓ If you had to pitch Bumble bee Blinds in one pun-filled sentence, what would it be?

Joseph Cloute (36:19)
Dress up your hive with Bumble Bee Blinds. We have the prices that won’t sting you.

Will Hanke (36:25)
Love it. That’s awesome. That’s great. Thank you. ⁓ So before we wrap up, I want to talk about books. You mentioned that you’re an avid reader of, guess, what we could call self-help type books. ⁓ What books, what other books have influenced you, your approach to business, your personal growth, and then of course, how have you applied those to your new venture?

Joseph Cloute (36:28)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Simon Sinek, Across the Board, his podcast, Him as a Human, all of his books, fantastic. Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara ⁓ Obviously spoke to me a little bit with my chef background as he was the one who helped bring Eleven Madison Park to the number one restaurant in the world. But him speaking about hospitality versus service.

and hospitality being how you make people feel versus service just checking the box that you completed the job as kind of required is a huge thing that I think about every single day. Like what can I do to help people feel better, whether it’s in my presence or about their decisions that they’re making. And then I’m working through good to great right now, because as we talked about.

I’m doing good. How do we do great? When do we scale? How do we scale? When’s that next step? Those types of things.

Will Hanke (37:46)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that’s a staple for sure.

Joseph Cloute (37:54)
Absolutely. And then Bumble bee Blinds, hands out, traction, ahm using an EOS system early on and that’s been super helpful as well I would say.

Will Hanke (38:00)
⁓ great.

Yes.

Yeah. Huge fan of EOS. I sent traction to all of my clients. It is fantastic. So great mention. Right now I’m reading one called The Road Less Stupid, which has been phenomenal. It’s all about thinking through.

Joseph Cloute (38:15)
Yeah, how about you? What are you reading?

Will Hanke (38:26)
things that you need to solve ⁓ and making those decisions, educated decisions, taking the time to just stop and think ⁓ has been fantastic. ⁓ traction, I think, is great, as you mentioned.

There’s a book called Outgrow, which is basically EOS for sales. It really shows you how to apply a system to sales, to outreach, to upselling, all that kind of stuff. Fantastic book. Definitely recommend that.

Joseph Cloute (38:59)
Very cool.

Will Hanke (39:00)
Very good. Well, thank you again, ⁓ Joseph. Any last bit of encouragement for those that are starting out and considering the franchising route?

Joseph Cloute (39:10)
Yeah, absolutely. I have listened to so many things about entrepreneurs and they all talk about the grind. And you got to figure out what that grind is and then find fulfillment in the grind. What part of that like really speaks to you. And we mentioned mine is I get so fulfilled actually going out on the consultations and helping people that

when I was entering into this journey, I asked all my friends who are entrepreneurs and I was like, do you have to, does it have to be your purpose, right? know, my friend who owns the gym, like you’re super passionate about fitness. Like I’m not necessarily at the time, wasn’t super passionate about window treatments. I was like, so how am I gonna, it’s not really my purpose. Like, am I gonna be fulfilled by this? And they’re like,

you gotta find the parts that fulfill you. And for me, that’s the working with the client, the finding the right solution to them, the troubleshooting their problems and those types of things, like gets me out of bed every single morning excited to be here. And so just know that you gotta find that. And there’s the parts that aren’t as fun, know, running a sales tax report and paying those types of things, like not my favorite part of the job, but absolutely.

you know, something that gets me to that next appointment, right?

Will Hanke (40:42)
Yeah, you mentioned Simon Sinek, Find Your Why, I think. Fantastic video. Yeah, yeah, great. How can people follow your journey and your van’s journey if they have questions?

Joseph Cloute (40:45)
Very, very similar, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. bumblebeeblinds.com/madison-wi You can find Bumble bee Blinds Madison on all of your meta, your Insta, my Google profile. We’re out there all the time. Gonna be out there this weekend. We have a kids triathlon that we’re gonna be at. So find Ricky there.

Find us hashtag, follow Ricky’s journey as well. But yeah, looking forward to talking to you in a year and talking about how we’re gonna continue to scale and where we’re gonna scale to.

Will Hanke (41:35)
Yeah, that’d be a lot of fun to hear that journey as well. Awesome. Well, Joseph, thank you again for being on today. This has been some fantastic insight. I really do appreciate it.

Joseph Cloute (41:38)
Absolutely.

Absolutely, it was my pleasure Will and love talking to you and what you’re doing as well.

Will Hanke (41:51)
Awesome. Well, that’s a wrap for today’s episode of Marketing Pains. A big thanks to Joseph Cloute for sharing his journey from building a career across diverse industries to launching Bumble bee Blinds of Madison, Wisconsin.

and giving us an inside look at how he’s carving out space in a competitive market with a brand new name and a whole lot of determination. If you’ve been thinking about what it takes to start from scratch, grow fast, or bring fresh ideas into a saturated industry, I hope today’s conversation left you with inspiration and some practical takeaways that you can put to work.

As always, if you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing or sharing it with someone in the industry that you think might find it useful. You can find more episodes and resources over at Window Treatment Marketing Pros on YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, all the usual places. Until our next episode here at Marketing Panes thank you for listening.

Guest Profile: Bert Bolton

Bert Bolton – Blind Cleaners Network

Bert’s been in the business for over 20 years, and he’s built something that’s part training center, part network, and part powerhouse support system for people in or entering the blind cleaning space. He has blended his expertise in the fields of education and cleaning to support a growing network of professionally minded blind and drapery cleaners.

His facility is one place major fabricators like Hunter Douglas and Springs Window Fashions send new products or fabrics for testing, cleaning, and evaluations. Students from as far away as Australia also come to learn this niche of the cleaning world, whether it be ultrasonics or OnSite Fabricare.

When not working, Bert and his wife Miriam enjoy time on the water in their kayaks, fishing (water or dirt) or sneaking away to visit their Idaho grandsons who are not quite old enough to do any of the above things unsupervised yet.

Description

What if blind cleaning and small repairs could unlock thousands in repeat business — or even lead to six-figure design projects? In this episode of Marketing Panes, host Will Hanke sits down with Bert Bolton of the Blind Cleaners Network to uncover the hidden potential in cleaning and repair services for window treatment businesses.

You’ll hear real-world stories, including:

• How a simple cord repair turned into a $2,000 cleaning job
  :white_check_mark: The decorator who turned six blinds into $100K of work in her first year with a client
• Why cleaning is one of the most overlooked yet powerful marketing tools in our industry
• How repeat commercial contracts (like schools) can bring in thousands every few years
• The role of the Blind Cleaners Network in training, credibility, and creating new business connections
  
  Whether you’re a window treatment pro, workroom, or designer, this conversation will help you see blind cleaning and repair in a whole new light, as a pathway to long-term, high-value clients.

From Dust to Dollars: Is Blind Cleaning a Secret Sales Engine?

Blind cleaning may not sound glamorous, but it can be one of the most powerful sales and marketing tools in the window treatment industry. What often begins as a simple cleaning or repair can open the door to long-term, high-value client relationships, repeat contracts, and even six-figure design projects.
In a recent episode of Marketing Panes, Bert Bolton, founder of the Blind Cleaners Network, shared how blind cleaning has become a hidden sales engine for dealers, decorators, and cleaning professionals alike.

Summary

Blind cleaning and small repairs are often dismissed as “low-margin” work. But for forward-thinking window treatment businesses, these services create a gateway to stronger client trust, repeat business, and new revenue opportunities. By combining credibility, expertise, and the right partnerships, blind cleaning can transform into a growth strategy—not just a service add-on.

The Overlooked Power of Blind CleaningWhy Dealers Often Skip It

Many window treatment dealers hesitate to offer cleaning services because the immediate profit margins appear smaller compared to selling new products. However, this view can overlook the bigger picture. Cleaning provides more than income—it creates opportunities to enter homes, build relationships, and position yourself as the trusted go-to provider.

Cleaning as a Door Opener

A minor repair, like fixing a cord, might only take minutes but can lead to thousands in additional work. As Bert shared, one decorator secured a $100K project that started with cleaning just six blinds. Another example: a school district that first engaged through a small repair ended up providing recurring cleaning contracts every few years, creating steady revenue.

Turning Service Calls into SalesTrust Leads to Bigger Projects

Once inside a client’s home or business, a cleaning job often uncovers more opportunities. A customer who starts with a single blind cleaning may later request quotes for replacements or upgrades, all because they’ve already built trust with the provider.

Marketing Value in High-End Homes

Cleaning provides entry into homes and spaces that dealers might not otherwise reach. In luxury markets, this can be the perfect introduction to clients who value quality and are likely to invest in larger projects down the road.

Building Credibility Through Training and NetworkingThe Role of Blind Cleaners Network

The Blind Cleaners Network equips professionals with the tools, training, and credibility to deliver quality service. From hands-on workshops to manufacturer partnerships with Hunter Douglas and Springs Window Fashions, the network helps raise professionalism across the industry.

Why Certification Matters

Being part of a professional network communicates reliability and expertise. This credibility not only reassures clients but also makes it easier to build partnerships with decorators, dry cleaners, and restoration companies who may pass along referrals.

A Hidden Sales Engine Worth Exploring

Blind cleaning isn’t just about maintenance—it’s about positioning your business for repeat contracts, high-value projects, and long-term relationships. By reframing cleaning and repairs as a marketing tool, window treatment professionals can unlock a steady stream of new opportunities.

Ready to Explore New Growth Opportunities?

If you’re looking for fresh ways to expand your window treatment business, consider blind cleaning as more than just a side service. At Window Treatment Marketing Pros, we help businesses uncover hidden revenue streams, build credibility, and attract long-term clients.

Learn more or connect with Bert at: https://blindcleaners.biz/

Special Invite to Sun Shading Expo 2025

Heading to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis this November 5–7? We’ve got you covered!

Use code SSENA25WTMP when registering to claim your FREE admission ticket.

Don’t miss this chance to connect with top industry leaders, see the latest innovations, and experience hands-on demos — all at no cost with our exclusive listener code.

Other Notes/Links:

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

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Video

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Hi, welcome to another episode of marketing panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke. Today we have another fantastic guest joining us for an interesting topic. Let me tell you if you’ve ever written off blind cleaning or repairs as low value work.

this conversation might change your mind. From turning repairs into long-term clients to why cleaning is one of the most underused marketing tools in the industry, we will cover all of that today. My guest is Bert Bolton from the Blind Cleaners Network. Bert ‘s been in business for over 20 years and he’s built something that’s part training center, part network, and part.

powerhouse support system for people in or entering the blind cleaning space. He has blended his expertise in the fields of education and cleaning to support a growing network of professionally minded blind and drapery cleaners. his facility is one place major fabricators like Hunter Douglas and Springs Window Fashions send new products or fabrics for test cleaning evaluations.

Students from as far away as Australia also come to learn this niche of the cleaning world, whether it be ultrasonics or on-site fabric care. When not working, Bert and his wife Miriam enjoy their time on the water in kayaks, fishing, or sneaking away to visit their Idaho grandsons, who are not quite old enough to enjoy any of the things mentioned above unsupervised quite

yet.

Bert, thank you so much for being on the show today. I appreciate it. I love the outdoors thing. ⁓ I’m an outdoors guy myself ⁓ and waiting on the grandkids to get a little bit bigger as well.

Bert Bolton (01:50)
Thank you.

Yeah,

it’d fun to teach them to fish and do those things.

Will Hanke (02:05)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. Well, thanks again for being on the show. I want to dig into the blind cleaners network a little bit later on, but for now, can you give us, tell me about your journey into the blind cleaning industry? How’d you get started 22 years ago and what drew you into this specialized niche?

Bert Bolton (02:27)
Well, at that time I was ⁓ leaving education. I was kind of at a crossroads looking for something to do in the area locally. So I was looking around for different opportunities and this little blind cleaning business was for sale. ⁓ Somebody just started it and they were going to retire in a few years. So they put it up for sale and I started investigating this little niche business and the more I kind of investigated it, the more intrigued I got by

this specialty niche business versus just a bigger business like carpet cleaning or window cleaning or something that had a lot of competition.

Will Hanke (03:07)
Yeah, so when you started investigating it a little bit more, I guess you figured out it was a viable business model. ⁓ How did that evolve for you?

Bert Bolton (03:17)
Well, as I mentioned, it was just a small business they had started. At that point, you know, I saw the possibilities that, you know, you could build it into and grow it into a viable business. so, you know, I took a few years learning the tricks of the trade and taking the knocks in business. But, you know, that ramp to success isn’t straight line. It’s got ups and downs, but, you know, it’s been a good ride.

Will Hanke (03:39)
You

Yeah. And then along the way, I guess you documented things, figured out what worked, what didn’t work.

Bert Bolton (03:50)
Yep, yep. I had no

background in custom window treatments and so I had a lot to learn.

Will Hanke (03:56)
Yeah, yeah. And then you mentioned ⁓ earlier that you had 70 members in your network and you’re growing. What’s driving the ⁓ increased interest in professional blind cleaning right now?

Bert Bolton (04:08)
I kind of think kind of coming back off of COVID a few years ago and all, there’s a couple of different trends. People are kind of tired of big business or looking for opportunities outside of the corporate world. They’re out of just a pay per hour. So, you know, they’re looking for businesses that offer flexibility and good compensation. think also there’s owners of

Some of these cleaning companies and restoration or even dry cleaners that as fewer people are wearing suits and ties to work, they’re looking for other revenue streams. So cross-selling customers with another service is good. And then finally, we’re seeing a lot of the decorators and retailers that realize that, you know, blind cleaning might not be as profitable as a transaction, but it is profitable as a business and it can boost sales and

Keep employees busy in slow seasons and also helps with marketing.

Will Hanke (05:10)
Yeah, I like that. You mentioned cleaning and repair is kind like a door opener. Can you share what that means?

Bert Bolton (05:16)
Mm-hmm.

Well, I think the big thing that people don’t realize is, you know, they look at fixing a cord on a lumenette may not be that big of a repair job, but I’ve known it to lead to $2,000 cleaning job. I know of many instances where doing a repair for a client gets us in the door for hundreds of dollars of blinds or thousands of blinds and commercial customers, all kinds of doors it opens.

Will Hanke (05:46)
Yeah, I’ve also heard people mention that getting in the door, like you said, with a repair type job can still turn into a five star review, ⁓ which obviously is a good thing to have as well.

Bert Bolton (06:00)
Oh yeah, yeah. We just had a job last week where a lady called us to clean her Luminette And I mean, I made another $500 cleaning the Luminette but in several hundred dollars doing some vignettes for her, but she was looking to get some new Nantucket shades. So we’re quoting her a bunch of new shades because we have a cleaning relationship and she’s done work with us. She wanted to, you know, check us out.

Will Hanke (06:18)
Okay.

It makes sense. It’s an easy next step in a value ladder, right? You’re already in the home. You already have the trust. So that’s fantastic. I like that idea. You’ve also mentioned that it becomes a bit of ⁓ marketing tool to get into more high-end homes. Can you tell me a little bit more about that strategy?

Bert Bolton (06:49)
Well, the best example would be one of the decorators in DC area that came to us number of years ago for training. And she wanted to get in these high end homes and ⁓ somebody called her about cleaning half a dozen silhouettes. She went in there as one of the first jobs as they just finished training and ⁓ clean these six silhouettes. She got talking to the homeowner and they were remodeling one of the wings of this mansion.

She, as a decorator, started giving the lady a few bits of advice and they hit it off. in the first year, she came back to tell us later, they did $100,000 worth of work with that lady. I mean, just because of six blinds that, you know, it wasn’t her customer, but it was her ideal client and she was in the home.

Will Hanke (07:32)
That’s awesome. Wow.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. Now a lot of window treatment dealers kind of hesitate at offering the cleaning side of things typically because of the lower profit margins. How could they see the bigger picture like you just explained?

Bert Bolton (07:54)
Well, you know, some think of commercial jobs like mini blinds and stuff, but I know a school district that years ago we lost the bid to put new blinds in that building. But since I have a relationship with that district that came through doing a few repairs, ⁓ we’ve cleaned those same blinds in that school every three to four years now and made money off those blinds, know, thousands of dollars for a day or two’s work multiple times, you know.

And then like you just mentioned, I mentioned this other story, that lady in DC area now has several crews cleaning. She’s bought more machines and she’s got crews cleaning and it’s because she recognized the marketing value.

Will Hanke (08:39)
Yeah, yeah. So ⁓ I’m assuming our listeners, or lot of our listeners are window treatment dealers. Are there instances where they just would like subcontract her out to do that piece of the work?

Bert Bolton (08:51)
Well, they could. Some of the cleaners operate as independent businesses. Some of the cleaners get a relationship with, like I said, their janitorial or their dry cleaners and they just provide a cleaning service. And if they get networked with a blind cleaner and they’re passing referrals back and forth, it leads to a lot of business. mean, I work with a whole bunch of decorators in our area and we pass a lot of business back to them.

Will Hanke (08:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I can definitely see the value there ⁓ for business owners that can look a little bit longer term overall. Definitely.

Bert Bolton (09:27)
Because it’s

like you’re in the home, you’re working on it. A lot of the older blinds or drapery even, you inspect it and say, I can’t clean this, it needs to be replaced. And they say, well, who do you recommend, you know? And if I’m in there as a referral for that company, I’m going to refer that company. But if it’s an open referral, then obviously I’m going to refer the companies that work with me.

Will Hanke (09:40)
Yeah.

Right, for sure. Yeah. So speaking of companies that work with you, tell us a little bit about Blind Cleaners Network. Who is it for? How does it work?

Bert Bolton (10:02)
It’s a network for the professionally minded blind cleaners. Our goal really is to be a support to the trade, helping those that want to learn how to do this professionally. We also network with the fabricators like Hunter Douglas and Springs window fashions ⁓ that are looking for how to best clean their window treatments. They like to sell them, but they know that at some point

they’re gonna need cleaning or accidents happen. And then also we’re helping to connect the cleaners to the consumers because these companies refer our network. And so it channels their referrals right back to the members.

Will Hanke (10:43)
I love it. So it’s a membership based program. Tell me a little bit about that.

Bert Bolton (10:47)
Yes.

Well, we have members that join the network and support us and they get ⁓ support through materials we’ve got. Some of the things we provide are free. You don’t have to be a member, but if you want to be in the referral program, it’s part of that’s just the training and certification that we offer so that these companies are assured that the technicians or the people doing the cleaning understand the best practices for.

how to do things.

Will Hanke (11:16)
Yeah, you mentioned training. What kind of training do you guys typically provide that people would probably tend to overlook?

Bert Bolton (11:25)
Well, you know, there, people tend to think that some of this is just, you know, a spray and suck it off or wipe it down or things like that. And some of these different window treatments, but they don’t understand the, some of these are well-made products, but they’re delicate and there are proper ways to clean them and you can quickly ruin them if you don’t know what you’re doing. So we offer training at our facility or we offer resources online and.

membership side of our website to help those doing this understand what’s the best practices.

Will Hanke (11:56)
Okay.

Nice, so they can get a lot of training just online, but they could also potentially actually visit you at your facility. Okay, ⁓ what does a typical training session look like at the facility and ⁓ what are people maybe most surprised to learn there?

Bert Bolton (12:08)
Right, correct.

Well, you everybody has different learning styles, but we use a mix of training when people come in. I’ve got a conference room that, you know, we’ll go through presentations on the screen and show pictures to tell stories and kind of help people understand things and make sure they understand the different products and the best practices. But we’re also home to my local shop, which is an operating full-time blind and drapery cleaning business. So when we’re out in the

shop they’re actually hands-on with all the equipment and an operating shop so it’s not just a staged dog and pony show as it were it’s like an operating shop they can see real world ideas they can ask questions they get hands-on

Will Hanke (13:06)
like that. How often do you host these or the are they one-off events or do you just do it like a couple times a year?

Bert Bolton (13:14)
We have a schedule where we offer four to five times a year, different types of training, whether it’s ultrasonic or injection extraction, but then we also offer custom training like I just had one the other day for a company that send their employees in and we can customize the training to what they need to learn.

Will Hanke (13:35)
Oh, that’s great. So you can.

Bert Bolton (13:36)
I mean they may already

have a background in window treatments or they may know something or they may be just somebody doesn’t know anything and then we got to start from scratch.

Will Hanke (13:47)
Yeah, that was my next question. What was, what is the percentage or do you know of, of like current dealers that just want to add this on versus somebody who’s maybe like you were 22 years ago where you’re just like, I should buy this.

Bert Bolton (14:01)
It’s probably about half and half. And we’ll have a lot of even experienced cleaners if they’re dabbling in cleaning or been doing cleaning, they’ll send their techs to get trained because I teach a comprehensive background of how to do it. And it’s kind of brand neutral and equipment neutral, if you will. I’m not trying to sell a certain chemistry, a certain product. I’m trying to teach them the best practices. And of course, as you know,

A lot of these treatments have a bunch of different names, but it’s the same kind of products.

Will Hanke (14:35)
Yeah. And you mentioned you have people that come in, not just window treatment related dealers, but restoration companies. That’s a great value add for them as well.

Bert Bolton (14:46)
Yes, yes, a lot of them it’s a niche business so if they don’t understand how to clean window treatments or the value of the custom window treatments a lot of them aren’t doing it and they’re really just throwing away or bypassing money they could be earning.

Will Hanke (14:59)
Yeah. From a dealer standpoint, you could always partner up with a restoration business in town and say, by the way, we can, we can add this on and, ⁓ share the revenue or something. don’t know.

Bert Bolton (15:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, what happens is if you have a restoration job, it’s pre-loss condition. And if you can’t, it’s a total loss. Well, they don’t know window treatment. So if you’re a dealer, you right there can say, well, we can replace that, you know. So you’re selling them new to replace what you couldn’t clean. It’s a win-win.

Will Hanke (15:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

It is. Yeah. And smart business owners should always be looking for those joint venture opportunities anyway, right? Yeah. So ⁓ for window treatment dealers listening who might be considering adding cleaning services, what is your advice for them to get started?

Bert Bolton (15:37)
Mm.

I would say the best thing is just we have a free newsletter that out once a month, the email. And ⁓ there’s a few articles on our website, the blindcleaners.biz. So they could just email us ⁓ to sign up for the newsletter. If they’re really serious about it, then ⁓ become a member. You can do monthly. So just start learning about the industry. I would really…

them to talk to us and learn a little more about it get their questions answered before they go buying any expensive equipment because I’ve seen a lot of people waste a lot of money and then figured out too late they didn’t need that.

Will Hanke (16:30)
Yeah,

yeah. So research, filling your head with knowledge really is the first step.

Bert Bolton (16:37)
Yes, correct. Because there’s a lot of misunderstandings out there and there’s a lot of wrong perceptions that, like I said, people chase something and don’t realize that’s not really the best fit for their business maybe or what they want to do.

Will Hanke (16:53)
Yeah, okay. You mentioned equipment and investment. ⁓ Does it require a big investment to get started with a lot of equipment or how does that work?

Bert Bolton (17:05)
Well, there’s

two types of equipment in this business. Injection extraction cleaning machines, they do fabric window treatments or to do drapery and the high-end treatments. Those little machines are about $5,000. So if you buy one that can do wet and dry cleaning, you’re looking at a, you know, not too big of an investment. The ultrasonic cleaning that does

like mini blinds and faux woods and some of the fabric blinds, anything that can be immersed in water. Those machines, new costs 20, 30, $40,000, but there’s a lot of used ones out there for 5- $10,000.

Will Hanke (17:49)
Okay, all right, so there’s a little bit of an investment to get started, but I’m assuming ⁓ maybe not a direct payoff just from the cleaning, and maybe there is down the road, but like you said, you still get your foot in the door, right?

Bert Bolton (17:53)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I would encourage people to just, you know, they can buy good used equipment or they could, if they’re going to just do one thing, get the machine that’ll let them do wet and dry cleaning fabrics, because that’s good money. And then they can grow into it and buy more if they find that it’s, you know, worth the investment.

Will Hanke (18:17)
Yeah.

Okay. ⁓ what is the, ratio, for the people that come through, maybe some of your training that do residential versus commercial.

Bert Bolton (18:35)
Most people do residential work, but there’s some that do commercial work, dedicated commercial work. But most of the companies that learn the cleaning end up doing a lot of residential, but then commercial too. mean, it depends on what their business model is. In our case, we do it full time and we do.

both and it just ebbs and flows during the year and the seasons.

Will Hanke (19:03)
Yeah, yeah, I’d say most of our our clients are doing residential window treatment installs. But at the same time, a lot of them also want to get into the commercial side of things because the maybe the the overall profit margins are smaller, but the jobs are a lot bigger. So I see getting, you know, doing the same thing for the cleaning side, like you mentioned the school earlier, right? ⁓ That’s true.

Bert Bolton (19:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, well what’s happened

with us and then tomorrow I’m going up to a Catholic school to consult with them and it started with a cleaning relationship doing some shears but now they need to replace all the blinds or the shears. They’re going to replace them with roller shades but they don’t know where to start. So I can go consult with them. I can show them everything and I could even

bid several different dealers if I want to, but basically it’s me, me or me that they’re going to look at. And the profit margin there is a lot better than I’m not competing against three other unknown bidders for the lowest price.

Will Hanke (19:59)
Yeah.

All right,

yeah. Yeah, I’ve also spoken to people in the past who did ⁓ restaurants, you know, because they needed, you know, there was a mandate or something that they had to have those cleaned every so often. So.

Bert Bolton (20:19)
Right. Yeah, there’s

some restaurant chains that require every four times a year or something. We’ve got some commercial jobs that we do because of in the medical field that they’ve got to have certain things clean twice a year or four times a year.

Will Hanke (20:36)
Okay. And one last comment on this. know that there are government contract opportunities as well for some of this stuff.

Bert Bolton (20:45)
Yes, yes, there’s some niche. There’s even niches within this niche that we could chase that some of them right now are evolving opportunities. mean, aircraft control tower blinds is a whole special niche, but people don’t even think about it. But it’s just knowing where to bid, who to bid, what to do.

Will Hanke (20:51)
Right?

No.

Yeah, yeah, so I can see this as a great add on, especially for, like you said, the ebbs and flows, the seasonality of window treatments. It’s a fantastic additional revenue stream.

Bert Bolton (21:22)
Yeah, well, it’s like you mentioned a minute ago, there’s a senior community near us that, you know, we get introduced to them by doing a couple repairs or cleaning a few blinds, but then they’ve got valences and drapes throughout the facility that need to be cleaned. And once you get a relationship with them, and then when they come time to do remodeling or updates, if you happen to be a decorator or you happen to be selling that kind of stuff, I mean, you’re right there in the front row.

Will Hanke (21:44)
yeah.

Yeah, fantastic. ⁓ So a couple of fun questions for you. ⁓ Is there a worst mistake you’ve seen someone make when cleaning blinds?

Bert Bolton (22:01)
The one that comes to mind right away is a cleaner in a major city. think it was like Cleveland or Cincinnati years ago that just got into the ultrasonic cleaning business and they got a job to clean all the blinds on all the floors of a big building downtown and apparently didn’t really know what they were doing and they they clean the blinds wrong and damage the paint on the blinds on a whole floor of one of the buildings and ⁓

Will Hanke (22:30)
don’t know.

Bert Bolton (22:32)
Of course that was a disaster because they not only lost that job, but they just blew their reputation in that whole downtown market. Because word spreads fast if you don’t really know what you’re doing, you know, if you’re damaging things.

Will Hanke (22:41)
Yeah, yeah. Wow, that’s…

Yeah. And, this is a great opportunity, you know, for, for people to take some of your knowledge and some of those studies, you know, so that they don’t make, those same types of mistakes.

Bert Bolton (22:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

we’ve been there, done that, or we know of those mistakes. And that’s where, you know, simple green takes the color out of certain blinds, you know, it’s like, or laundry soap is good for laundry, but it’s not designed for some of these other things.

Will Hanke (23:15)
That’s great. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn’t want me to do it because I would just do water and bleach or something. I don’t even know what I would do. Yeah.

Bert Bolton (23:21)
Yeah, well bleach is a great example. There’s a lot of what you see on the internet, even on the decorator

websites. It just makes me roll over. I have to hold my tongue.

Will Hanke (23:32)
Yeah,

yeah. Is there a type of window treatment that you just hate to clean?

Bert Bolton (23:38)
It’s gotta be the, some of the specialty blinds that have come out. Hunter Douglas had some that were only in production for a few years. They’re just not designed for real world cleaning or real world life, like the Aluettes and trios and things. The veins are kind of like an airplane wing and they’re just not. And then a greasy micro mini blind over a kitchen sink is probably the worst.

Will Hanke (23:56)
Yeah.

Bert Bolton (24:08)
you

Will Hanke (24:09)
yeah,

I can imagine so.

Bert Bolton (24:11)
not worth

cleaning. You know, it’s the results and what’s going to happen and all, it’s just not worth it.

Will Hanke (24:17)
yeah, all the effort required just to get it done.

Bert Bolton (24:19)
Yeah, versus the real rewards in the some of the nicer high-end products. I mean, they’re easier to clean in a lot of ways, which they’re easy to clean and they’re better money. And some of the basic drapery valances, you know, they clean up really well and you get a happy customer. They’re not hard work and you get a really good paycheck.

Will Hanke (24:39)
Nice. ⁓ So speaking of paychecks, you share just some generic numbers on, let’s say, a residential job?

Bert Bolton (24:51)
It’s not unusual like when we’re talking about blind and drapery cleaning, rule of thumb, and this is just rule of thumb because across different markets the prices vary, usually 10 to 20 % of retail value would be an average number for cleaning. So if something’s $2,000, then getting $200 to $400 to clean it wouldn’t be unheard of in some markets even higher.

Will Hanke (25:20)
Okay.

Bert Bolton (25:21)
And then if you’re doing some blinds, you know, it’s a commodity. other words, a mini blind for a school might be $25, $30 a blind or a shade in a hospital might be $30 to $50 a shade to clean. And it’s just volume. You crank out so many per hour, but in drapery, stage drapes and other things, I mean, it could be very lucrative.

Will Hanke (25:45)
Yeah, yeah, interesting. If you set it up right, I could see some benefits. I just called a pest control company and I think it was 250 bucks for them to come out to the house the first time. But as soon as I set that appointment, they said, by the way, we can come out, you know, four times a year for, I don’t know, 99 bucks a visit or something like that, right? So before I know it, I’m signed up for $600 a year, you know, and they’re just gonna show up, do the thing and take off.

Bert Bolton (26:07)
huh.

Mm-hmm.

Will Hanke (26:14)
having that recurring revenue for them, I mean, it was fantastic for them, right?

Bert Bolton (26:18)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah, but that’s you bring up a good point there. These retailers that understand cleaning or use cleaning as a sales leader, they include the first cleaning. If you clean within the first two years or three years, the first cleaning is free. And then, you know, they’ll keep, you know, let’s get a maintenance program. We’ll come back every three years or every two years to clean. ⁓ And the idea being obviously,

they’re in the home and they’re gonna make cross sales of other things. For us, you inspect the blind, the older blinds, I mean, you’ve gotta say, hey, this is too risky to clean or it’s gonna fall apart, you’re gonna need a new one. And so you’re in the house with a relationship to sell them the new one.

Will Hanke (27:03)
Yeah, yeah, so that’s interesting. The people that are that you’re hiring, if it’s not you as the business owner, you have somebody going out to do the cleaning. I’m assuming they need a little bit of sales training slash knowledge as well.

Bert Bolton (27:18)
Well, they need to be familiar with the different types of products and obviously which ones would be, you know, dangerous to clean because they might fall apart or the fabric obviously has got too much damage from age or UV or whatever. And so, you know, they need to recognize that, but they don’t, you know, if they’re working in conjunction with your sales team or somebody, then obviously they’re just handing it off for saying, you know,

this person is the one to talk to.

Will Hanke (27:50)
Yeah, yeah, at least refer the lead over. So is there a window treatment that you really like is your favorite to clean or a certain type?

Bert Bolton (28:02)
I like seeing results. It’s just nice to see results and some of the blinds like the silhouettes, some of the sheer shades are really nice because you can see such a transformation. People don’t realize over the years how much dirt they do pick up because they’re on window air filters, but when you get them clean, then they’re just like, wow, you know.

Will Hanke (28:14)
yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and they probably feel good because that’s an investment that they didn’t have to rebuy, right?

Bert Bolton (28:30)
Oh

yeah, yeah, and you always show them the dirt, you know, take a picture, show them if you’re cleaning in the house, it’s easy because you’ve got that bucket with dirty dry cleaning or dirty wet cleaning solution.

Will Hanke (28:43)
Yep, yep, makes sense. So speaking of cleaning gadgets, what’s one cleaning tool or gadget that you swear by no matter how ridiculous it looks?

Bert Bolton (28:52)
Cut off a Hunter Douglas mini blind wand, a hollow wand, and then you jam in a cut off toothbrush. So you’ve got a toothbrush on the end of a long clear wand and then you can reach in and get the little fuzzy bugs or lint or things out of silhouettes or honeycomb shades or whatever. It gives you little tool to do a bunch of different tasks with.

Will Hanke (29:20)
I love that, yeah. It just a toothbrush head and a mini blind wand that’s a great one. That’s great. Well, cool. Thank you so much for sharing information about the, especially about the Blind Cleaners Network. I really enjoyed that. Can you tell me where people can go to learn more about this?

Bert Bolton (29:21)
but it’s just a toothbrush head on a mini blind wand.

They just go to our website blindcleaners.biz We have a website with a few general articles for the public. And then obviously we’re still, it’s a fairly new website, so we’re still adding information, but we have schedules of training and other things. They just contact us directly.

Will Hanke (29:57)
good.

Okay, yeah, they can go to the website if they have more questions, contact you to learn more about that. So we’ll put all that in the show notes so that you can access that later. ⁓ Any last thoughts for the professionals that are trying to grow in this industry?

Bert Bolton (30:18)
The big thing I think some of them miss is that if they’re part of a professional network, part of it is raising the professionalism as being part of a group adds credibility. You know, they’re recognized and the Hunter Douglas and Springs and the others say, hey, you know, these people have got more credibility because they’ve had a training or have the knowledge that we understand. And the other thing is it helps them if they’re going to some of these other

referral sources to be able to say, I’m part of this professional network. It sets them at a higher standard, just like any certification or specialization.

Will Hanke (30:54)
Yeah.

Makes sense, yeah. Well, again, Bert, thank you so much. It’s been an incredible conversation. If you have been thinking about adding cleaning as part of the services or you’re already in the industry, I hope that you were able to learn maybe a thing or two. ⁓ If you’ve even got one idea or useful strategy out of the conversation, do us a favor and send this to a friend in the trade. I would appreciate it.

⁓ Bert , thank you so much for being on today. I really do appreciate your time. Yeah, no problem. If you want to hear more episodes like this, don’t forget to follow and subscribe, share it with a colleague and check out the rest of our marketing panes episodes and we’ll catch you on the next one.

Bert Bolton (31:28)
thank you, Will.

All right, thank you.

Guest Profile: Susan Woodcock

Susan Woodcock is an entrepreneur, educator, and one of the most recognizable voices in the custom window treatment world. She owns Home Dec Gal, a to-the-trade workroom, and is the founder of Workroom Tech—the only trade school in the U.S. dedicated to custom home decor sewing professionals. She and her husband also produce the Custom Workroom Conference, an annual gathering that draws passionate small business owners from across the country. Today, we’re diving into her journey, what it takes to train the next generation of fabricators, and why education is more important than ever in our trade.

The Journey Into Custom Workrooms

Susan Woodcock’s path into the window treatment industry began in her mother’s drapery workroom and quickly grew into her own business in the late 1980s. From English drapery styles to modern fabrications, she developed her skills through real projects and long-term relationships with designers. Today, Susan is recognized as one of the most influential voices in custom fabrication and education.

Why Education MattersHands-On Training vs. Online Learning

While online tutorials are convenient, Susan emphasizes that hands-on experience is irreplaceable. Fabrics require physical interaction—draping, measuring, and managing large cuts—that can’t be fully captured in a video. That’s why her school, Workroom Tech, offers small in-person classes with direct mentorship, complemented by interactive online sessions that expand access worldwide.

Training the Next Generation

Workroom Tech attracts students from all walks of life—young parents seeking flexible careers, professionals transitioning from healthcare or law enforcement, and retirees looking for creative encore careers. What unites them is a shared passion for fabric and craftsmanship.

Starting and Growing a Successful WorkroomTools That Matter Most

According to Susan, the most important investment isn’t a machine—it’s a professional work table. Large-scale projects like draperies and Roman shades require space to spread fabric, cut precisely, and assemble with ease. With a table and basic sewing tools, many successful businesses have started from home-based setups.

Building Value Through Craftsmanship

Susan encourages fabricators to highlight the handcrafted, custom nature of their work rather than competing on price. High-quality window treatments last decades, and clients—whether affluent or budget-conscious—value the uniqueness and durability of custom pieces.

Branding and Marketing That WorkEstablishing a Presence

Susan credits much of her growth to building websites early on, which helped past clients reconnect. Social media, particularly Instagram and Facebook, has since amplified her reach, giving her a direct way to showcase projects and connect with future students.

Consistent Branding

For Susan, branding is about more than visuals—it’s about consistency. She avoids discounts to reinforce the value of craftsmanship, teaching students to maintain pricing integrity. Her strategy is simple: quality, authenticity, and confidence in the value of custom work.

The Role of Conferences and CommunityThe Custom Workroom Conference

Beyond the classroom, Susan co-produces the Custom Workroom Conference, an annual gathering that combines education, networking, and community. Attendees gain exposure to new methods, connect with peers facing similar challenges, and build relationships with suppliers and mentors.

The conference is known for its welcoming atmosphere—something many small business owners in this niche industry deeply appreciate. It’s less like a trade show and more like a family reunion for fabricators.

Conclusion

Susan Woodcock’s journey shows that the custom window treatment industry thrives on a balance of education, craftsmanship, and community. From equipping new fabricators with essential skills to fostering collaboration through events, her work highlights the importance of building a trade on both tradition and innovation.

Show Notes

• Guest: Susan Woodcock – Founder of Workroom Tech, Home Dec Gal, and co-producer of the Custom Workroom Conference.
  
• Topics: hands-on education, starting a workroom, branding and marketing, and the role of community events.
  

Learn more about the Custom Workroom Conference: customworkroomconference.com

Other Notes/Links:

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Home Dec Gal: Visit Website

Workroom Tech: Visit Website

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke. Today we’re joined with Susan Woodcock, entrepreneur, educator, and founder of Workroom Tech. the only trade school in the U.S. for custom home decor sewing pros. She also runs Home Dec Gal and produces the custom workroom conference, fabricators together from all over the country. In this episode, we’ll talk about her journey, the importance of hands-on education, and how workrooms can thrive in today’s industry.

Susan Woodcock is an entrepreneur, educator, and one of the most recognizable voices in the custom window treatment world. She owns Home Dec Gal, a to-the-trade workroom, and is the founder of Workroom Tech, the only trade school in the US dedicated to custom home decor sewing professionals. She and her husband also produced the Custom Workroom Conference, an annual gathering that draws passionate small business owners from across the country. Today we’re diving into her journey

what it takes to train the next generation of fabricators and why education is more important than ever to our trade. Susan, thank you so much for being on the show.

Susan Woodcock (01:24)
Hello, Will, thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here with you today.

Will Hanke (01:27)
Thank you. So let’s jump in and talk about custom work rooms. What exactly are they? And tell us a little bit about the story of how you got into this side of the industry.

Susan Woodcock (01:39)
Okay, well a custom workroom is ⁓ usually a small business. There’s also some larger commercial workrooms that do custom work, but works directly with interior design trade to create those beautiful window treatments and custom upholstered pieces. And then some workrooms work retail and work directly with customers, helping them with their interior design. So it’s an industry full of people that work with their hands and are actually making things in their businesses.

Will Hanke (02:14)
I like that. So before focusing on the fabrication and teaching students how to sew, did you do any other types of sewing like for a different industry that moved you towards this?

Susan Woodcock (02:28)
No. I think I’ve made one dress in my life, no garment sewing, dabbled in quilting a little bit. My mother had a drapery workroom in her home, and that’s how I learned. And then I started my own drapery workroom. When I left college, I was an art major, fine arts. And ⁓ there were so many jobs for fine art majors out there, right?

Will Hanke (02:30)
Okay.

I bet. ⁓

Susan Woodcock (02:56)
So I started a drapery workroom in 1988 and been doing it ever since.

Will Hanke (03:04)
wow. What do you guys focus on mostly in the workroom?

Susan Woodcock (03:08)
draperies, round shades, slip covers, that sort of thing.

Will Hanke (03:13)
Okay, okay.

What did the early days of getting started out of college, what did that look like?

Susan Woodcock (03:19)
Well, I started out with one designer and she was very busy and very successful and she really directed the style of my work. So she did English drapery method which is bump interlining and ⁓ back then in the late 80s it was chintz fabrics and silks and valances and trims and ⁓ a lot of things that we’re seeing come back now which is exciting.

But it really gave me an opportunity to learn on the job, but just hand methods, hand sewing. And I worked with her exclusively at the beginning of my career. We had an exclusive contract and did that for three or four years. And it was a great way to learn. And it really set me off on the path that I’ve done for the rest of my career.

Will Hanke (04:13)
i love that. Has the audience changed over the years of who you’re serving?

Susan Woodcock (04:18)
No. As far as my custom workroom, no. In fact, I’m still working for some of the same customers that I worked for back then. But now it’s their children and their grandchildren. Yeah, that’s pretty exciting to see.

Will Hanke (04:26)
wow.

That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s awesome.

I love to hear that the 80s prints are coming back. I doubt some of the crazy ones are coming back, but still, that’s exciting to me.

Susan Woodcock (04:38)
I know.

Yeah,

the grand millennials are trending us towards the fashions of years ago and it’s fun to see.

Will Hanke (04:53)
That’s awesome. Awesome. So I know you’re really busy. You have Home Dec Gal, Workroom Tech, and the Custom Workroom Conference. Why do you think it’s necessary to separate them in the digital space, and how do they intersect?

Susan Woodcock (05:08)
Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s difficult when you’re self-employed to separate yourself from the businesses. The Home Dec Gal is definitely me. I’m fabricating. The customers are hiring me because they want me specifically doing their work. But for the conference and the school, we started the conference first. And it was one of those things where I said, you know, I want something to sell in the future.

and my workroom business is really tied to me. So the conference, one of the reasons we started it, one of the small reasons was to have something to build and sell later. And the same thing with the school. We do try to keep it somewhat, not neutral, but so somebody else could take it over in the future. It could be sold and grow and change and not be ⁓ so connected to me personally.

And I think it’s worked out pretty well. Sometimes, you know, they all sort of blur together. That’s okay.

Will Hanke (06:11)
Yeah, yeah.

It’s always great to start a business with kind of some sort of blurry exit strategy in the mix. Even if you’re not exactly sure what that is, just to have that kind of long-term outlook is pretty smart.

Susan Woodcock (06:19)
Mm.

Will Hanke (06:26)
Yeah. So ⁓ let’s talk a little bit about Workroom Tech. What inspired you to launch that after the first conference, I guess? And what made you feel like there was a need for that?

Susan Woodcock (06:34)
Mm-hmm.

When we started the conference, the one thing people kept saying to me was, this was great, but we need hands-on training. We can sit in a seminar, it’s great to see exhibitors and to meet other workrooms, but I need to learn hands-on. And we heard them. And we moved to an area, Tri-O, North Carolina. It’s a lovely small town.

I looked around and said, you know, this is a great place for people to come to visit, to take classes. Not so much when we were living in the Charlotte area. You know, we would have been, you know, in an office park somewhere. But here, our classes, our building is in the middle of town. So it really, the town sort of helped us make that decision. We rented a space and said, you know, we’ll give it.

three years, we had a three year lease, and see how it goes? And after three years, we bought a building, I mean, we were committed. So it’s been very successful, and I come from a long background of teaching, started teaching in 2003 for Cheryl Strickland, who had a trade school, and that was the only trade school in the US at that time, which ⁓ she passed away. The school sold and moved, and during the recession, it didn’t survive.

So there was a gap in the industry for about five years with no hands-on school. And we decided to try to fill that gap. And we did it differently. It’s not the same as the school that Cheryl had, but it’s been pretty successful and we’re pretty proud of the students that have come through here.

Will Hanke (08:16)
That’s awesome. Speaking of students, what kind of students typically come to Workroom Tech?

Susan Woodcock (08:23)
oh boy we have it all. We have everything in age from 17 to 70. People that are starting careers, young moms who want a stay at home career, people that are retired that want an encore career that’s creative and satisfying. We have a lot of people that have been in medicine, ⁓ law enforcement, ⁓ military. ⁓

Accounting, you name it. A lot of healthcare people, a of nurses that want a career of working with fabric. Everybody loves fabric and that’s why they’re here.

Will Hanke (09:01)
That’s awesome. I love the variety in who’s going to come through the door, right? The next, the next course. That’s great. ⁓ Could you, could you walk me through like, what is a typical training week or course look like?

Susan Woodcock (09:05)
Mm-hmm.

A typical class would be two or three days and they’re specific for style. So we have custom draperies level one where they make three drapery samples that give them the tools to take that back home and make full-size drapery, pleated drapery, agroma drapery, a gathered drapery. We have a class for Roman shades, same thing, get you started to learn about cord safety, learn how shades are made.

black L shades and line shades and the different lift systems that are available. Same across the board for pillows and cushions. ⁓ Basic upholstery, we don’t do ⁓ too many upholstery workshops here. We have a basic upholstered ottoman and our introduction to re-opholstery class that’s really popular. So most of our classes are geared towards getting people started.

Will Hanke (10:03)
Okay, wow.

Yeah.

Susan Woodcock (10:10)
and

then they can go home and they want to come and take more classes right away and like you kind of need to practice first.

Will Hanke (10:16)
Nice. Well, that’s a testament to the ability of the teaching, I think.

Susan Woodcock (10:22)
Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, we have great teachers here.

Will Hanke (10:23)
Yeah,

that’s fantastic. ⁓ How does somebody coming to take a course with you differ than, let’s say, just watching YouTube videos?

Susan Woodcock (10:35)
Oh, yeah. Well, hands on is a different way to learn, especially when you’re working with fabrics, when you need to have tension or you need to drape something. It’s really difficult to show that through a video. When we started Workroom Tech, our hamburger, we were going to make one really good hamburger and our hamburger was hands on training. And then COVID came and we had to switch and add

Will Hanke (10:49)
Mm-hmm.

Susan Woodcock (11:05)
online classes. So we have been doing online classes since 2020 and they’ve been very successful. So I don’t know why I was, I had pushback on that. I personal pushback. I was devoted to hands-on training, but the online classes have really brought us more students. So they didn’t replace the hands-on training.

Will Hanke (11:13)
interesting.

Interesting. But still the online’s, mean, you’re still demonstrating, you can answer questions, that kind of stuff. It’s not like a one-sided video where you can’t ask any questions when you’re watching it. Yeah.

Susan Woodcock (11:36)
Exactly. Yeah,

the online classes are interactive and students get the recording where they can work on their projects and have a recording, but they can ask questions during the class. And ⁓ I can make changes. Like I have a class that I did on Roman Shades and now that system’s not available. So, you know, I had to make some changes. can, the same class, but, you know, switch out the system at the end. And ⁓ so they’re pretty easy to keep updated.

Will Hanke (11:48)
yeah.

Susan Woodcock (12:04)
And so I’m not just making one video and then selling the same video over and over. It’s new every time.

Will Hanke (12:08)
Right.

OK, very cool. What is the ratio, do you think, for online classes versus in person?

Susan Woodcock (12:17)
Well, we have a very small class sizes for in-person. So we have about 75 students a year that come here to try on to take classes. And then we have at least double that, you know, or more than online classes. Because they’re class sizes for hands-on classes, we only have three students. And that’s about the best ratio for teachers.

For some classes, like we just had a lampshades class where they’re not using the industrial sewing machines and needing as much equipment. We have more students and the teachers can handle six students. yeah, it’s about for the hands-on classes, it’s three students and they each get their own work table, own industrial machines, own staple gun so that they’re not having to share. And it’s real life experience. It’s just like working in a work room anywhere else.

Will Hanke (13:11)
Yeah.

I love that. That’s great. If there was one course out of all the ones that you offer, what is the one that you wish more workroom pros would take?

Susan Woodcock (13:21)
Probably Roman Shades just because there’s so many things to learn to keep it up with the industry. And custom draperies is the mainstay and that’s one of our most popular classes. Our instructor Terry Sandlin does a great job with that and once you learn to make drapers in Roman Shades you can learn anything else.

Will Hanke (13:42)
Okay.

Wow. Okay. Well, you heard it here. That’s the class you need to be watching for, right? That’s a good one. What’s been the most surprising student’s success story?

Susan Woodcock (13:57)
wow, we’ve had so many. I mean not just surprising, but it’s to see someone come here, take classes and start a business and then five years later they’re successful. I we have students that started with us that are now teaching for us and they’re being published and it’s just really exciting to see what people can do with hands-on training and

Will Hanke (14:16)
wow.

Susan Woodcock (14:25)
and going home and getting started. And it’s not a lot of money to get a workroom started. You can start pretty small. Yeah, gosh, there’s so many, so many examples. I ⁓ always joke with the students because I don’t have children. So I said, you your success, I’m like a proud grandma. Every time I see you post something online, that’s like my grandma moment, you know?

Will Hanke (14:43)
No.

That’s great.

Sure, yeah. It’s always good to see your kids have success, right? Or your grandkids. That’s awesome. So we will add information on Workroom Tech to the show notes if anybody wants to learn more about your upcoming classes. But I want to talk about the custom Workroom Conference that’s coming up as well. ⁓ It’s right around the corner from when we’re taping this live and you do this every year. Is it always in the September range?

Susan Woodcock (14:51)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, we try to keep it last week of September to first week of October. And if we go any later, too many workrooms are hitting their Christmas deadlines starting October 1st. Yeah.

Will Hanke (15:31)
Yeah.

Okay. And is it always in the Tennessee area?

Susan Woodcock (15:36)
No, it’s all over the place. We’ve done them in North Carolina, ⁓ South Carolina, Virginia, Rhode Island, Tennessee. We try to move it around. probably will not go, we’ve done Ohio. We probably will not go too far west. know people always want us to come to California, but most of our exhibitors are East Coast or.

Will Hanke (15:38)
Okay.

Wow.

Susan Woodcock (16:05)
Midwest and attendees as well. Not as many small work rooms and our target audience are small businesses.

Will Hanke (16:15)
Right. Yeah. Well, this year, 2025, it’s in Tennessee and pretty you had to twist my arm pretty hard to come to ⁓ Tennessee in the end of September when the when the leaves are just starting to maybe change a little bit. So very excited about that.

Susan Woodcock (16:31)
Yeah, it’s in the mountains. It’s a really gorgeous venue. it was a surprise when we went to do our site visit. Why is this here in the middle of nowhere? It seems like the middle of nowhere. But it’s ⁓ in Kingsport, Tennessee, which is near Bristol, Virginia, Johnson City, Tennessee. It’s a great area for outdoor sports and hiking and biking in small towns and country music. And the venue has a golf course and it’s a

it’ll be a retreat as much as an educational conference.

Will Hanke (17:02)
Yeah.

Wow. That’s great. And what are the dates on the conference for this year?

Susan Woodcock (17:07)
September 23 through 25.

Will Hanke (17:10)
September 23 through 25. Okay, awesome. So let’s talk a little bit about the workroom owners, things that happen with them. What are some common mistakes or misconceptions that you see new workroom owners make?

Susan Woodcock (17:26)
watching a YouTube video or going on Instagram and just because they saw it on Instagram they think that’s the way it’s supposed to be. Yeah, we get a lot of that here. Students come in and, well, I was doing it like this because I saw it on Instagram. ⁓ Yeah.

Will Hanke (17:28)
Okay.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Okay.

Susan Woodcock (17:50)
I was just going to say, I always tell students there’s at least three right ways.

So don’t feel like they’re doing anything wrong because they’re doing it one way. There’s probably two more ways you can do it. there can be, on social media, can always be voices that are not supportive and they see you do something one way and they’re like, that’s wrong, you never should do it that way. And I give them permission to go ahead and do it the way that works for you. ⁓ Because there’s things that…

Will Hanke (18:18)
I love that. I love that you have an open mind.

Susan Woodcock (18:22)
that are shown on Facebook groups and on YouTube that some workrooms say you always do it this way and students will come and I’ll say well I’ve never done it that way. you you have to broaden your knowledge and that’s why learning from as many different teachers as you can is valuable.

Will Hanke (18:44)
Yeah. So taking a course I think is great. Is there any one tool, let’s say for somebody starting at home, any one tool or skill that they absolutely need to get going?

Susan Woodcock (18:55)
They need a work table. A professional work table is the most important tool. You can get started with a home iron with a domestic sewing machine, but a work table, you can’t work on the floor. You can’t work on a dining room table or kitchen island. And that’s the one thing about custom window treatments that is different than other sewing is you’re working with really big pieces of fabric.

And that’s what’s really intimidating. The skills are not extraordinary. It’s not like sewing clothing. That’s like, know, couture sewing is amazing and quilting. But draperies has a lot of big pieces, long seams, but you have to have space for these 120 inch long cuts. So a table is very important.

Will Hanke (19:49)
Okay, that makes sense. ⁓ When it comes to fabricators trying to explain their value, you know, either to designers or to end clients, do you have any tips there?

Susan Woodcock (20:00)
Yeah, handcrafted is key and it’s so valuable. It can’t be outsourced. It’s custom for that individual, whether they’re wealthy or not. You can have custom window treatments that are affordable, they’re custom. Of course, a lot of what we do is for extremely affluent people. And having something handcrafted,

to order. I mean, that’s amazing. Yeah.

Will Hanke (20:32)
Yeah, for sure.

And it can be a talking point, you know, for your living room or something like that too.

Susan Woodcock (20:39)
Yeah, and custom window treatments and upholstery lasts for years and years and years, know, 25 years. If you invest in good materials and workmanship and craftsmanship, end product is really highly valuable and our part is just a little part of it. know, the cost of the fabrics far exceeds the cost of the labor, I can tell you.

Will Hanke (21:07)
Yeah, yeah, cool. So I wanna talk a little bit about your self-employment growth strategies, obviously marketing a little bit. What’s one thing that’s really helped you get the word out about the school, workroom tech, Home Dec Gal and maybe they’re not all the same thing?

Susan Woodcock (21:26)
Well, I started Home Dec Gal 2013, I’m trying to remember. And I put up a website and I took a gap in my career when I was getting a divorce and I moved to North Carolina. And when I put my website up, one of my old customers called me within days.

Will Hanke (21:53)
Okay.

Susan Woodcock (21:54)
and said, see you’re back in business.

So whenever a workroom’s like, I don’t really need a website because I work to the trade, I was like, you know what? Yeah, that works. Now that was before Instagram. That’s been huge for us. But the websites for all three of our businesses are what drives most of our traffic. And the workroom tech website,

people find us so easily. Because there’s nowhere else. When you put in trade school for custom draperies, we’re it. So we really try to take advantage of that.

Will Hanke (22:36)
Yeah, I love that you’ve cornered the market on it, Yeah. ⁓

Susan Woodcock (22:39)
Well, trying to.

For our little school, you know, it’s a pretty big deal. People come here from all over the world and it’s been remarkable. And our town is just blown away. They’re like, people are here from where? To take a sewing class? Yeah.

Will Hanke (22:54)
that’s awesome. Right? Yeah. that’s great.

I love the effect that you’re having on the community as well. That’s great. Cool. So you said you had somebody reach out a couple of days after you went live with your site. Tell me a little bit more about the personal branding and how that mixes into what you’re doing.

Susan Woodcock (23:03)
Yeah, it’s fun.

Yeah, so for Home Dec Gal when we working on the logo and everything it was to be approachable, to be kind and quality, right? Quality craftsmanship. And all of that ties in as well with teaching. So when I’m teaching, I’m always thinking about our brand. And so for…

classes here at Workroom Tech, we never offer discounts because we don’t want our students to feel like they need to offer discounts on their labor or on their products, right? So we’re not going to start doing, you know, buy one, get one free when I don’t teach that in my classes. So we’re always trying to keep the branding unique to us and always have that same sort of theme throughout.

all of our companies and to reflect our core values and try to work with people that also respect that.

Will Hanke (24:20)
Yeah, yeah, I think working with affluent people, which is obviously the probably the target market for the majority of people doing this. they kind of look down on discounts, right? They they immediately assume you’re reducing your value. So I love that you teach that.

Susan Woodcock (24:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And you, we would be surprised at what people will pay who value the handcrafted products. Yeah. And not everybody does. Not all affluent people value handcrafted products. They’re happy to buy ready-made shades at a home improvement store and they value other things. You know, maybe it’s cars or, ⁓ you know, vacations or something else.

Will Hanke (24:45)
yeah. Yeah.

Susan Woodcock (25:04)
So it’s, and there’s people that are not as affluent that save for years to have custom things done. So it’s all about people that value that handcrafted product.

Will Hanke (25:14)
Definitely. I think that’s a smart strategy. What marketing channels have worked best for your audience?

Susan Woodcock (25:18)
Yeah.

Instagram and Facebook, most of our students are women and we’ve had really great success through Facebook and Instagram. And there really isn’t anywhere else for us to advertise. We do a podcast with Sealed to Google IAMU with a So Much More podcast that’s once a month. That’s been really great for us.

for Workroom Tech to have the monthly podcast. And word of mouth, know, when people attend custom Workroom conference, they tell their friends. And the best marketing for us is when somebody attends a class or attends the conference and then talks about it online and shares their experience.

Will Hanke (26:04)
Nothing better than personal referrals.

Susan Woodcock (26:07)
Yes.

Will Hanke (26:09)
Nice and warm right off the bat, right?

Susan Woodcock (26:11)
Yeah,

I know. I wish more people would do that.

Will Hanke (26:14)
Right, yeah. How do you balance sharing educational content on Instagram, those types of platforms, with promoting services?

Susan Woodcock (26:23)
Probably look at it in thirds. So a third promotion, a third something of value, and then a third just, you know, something fun. Vacation pictures or inspiration pictures or sharing other people’s content, sharing your students when they succeed. And it’s not, I don’t make a true effort every month to make sure it’s a third, third, third, but I sort of try to remind myself when I’m

doing promotions that the next one needs to be something of value.

Will Hanke (26:58)
Yeah, yeah. People obviously love the value, but you know, have to be careful about providing value without giving away the farm, right?

Susan Woodcock (27:08)
Yeah, yeah, that’s right. And you’d be surprised what people love to see. Sometimes the simplest tip, if people just go crazy over it, you just never know.

Will Hanke (27:20)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. I love that you’re using the different platforms though. ⁓ If someone is hesitant to market themselves, what advice would you give them?

Susan Woodcock (27:32)
Start with micro photos of your work. And that’s our students that don’t have a body of work to share. So on your Instagram account, you don’t have to show a finished room. You can show in the work room a close up of hand sewing, a close up of applying fringe, know, your hands doing something, pulling the fabric over the frame.

know, stapling things in place, hang stuff up in your workroom and take photos from below. So just try to get some detailed photos and get the most mileage that you can out of what you’ve done.

Will Hanke (28:12)
That’s great. I think that’s a good start. So let’s talk about the upcoming conference. Want to make sure everybody gets a little bit of a sneak peek about that. And if you’re listening to this after the fact, you do this every year in a different place, as you mentioned. What can first timers expect when they come to the custom workroom conference this year?

Susan Woodcock (28:14)
Yeah.

it’s different than any other trade show. And we hear that over and over and over again. It is welcoming. It’s friendly. It’s warm. And everyone there is excited to meet another small business owner. So many people in this industry work by themselves or in a small group, you know, one or two employees.

So to get out and see all these people from around the world together that all make things with their hands in their businesses, it’s amazing, it’s remarkable. It’s like a family, more like a reunion. And we have the metrics for this year, we have almost 40 % of the people are first time attendees and 60 % have been in business under 15 years. So there’s a lot of new people.

Will Hanke (29:22)
Okay.

Susan Woodcock (29:29)
So don’t be shy, know, don’t be, feel like you’re gonna be the only person there that’s never attended. ⁓ And we give a ⁓ little designation on the name badge if it’s your first time attending, because the exhibitors wanna know that too. They’re really excited to meet people for the first time.

Will Hanke (29:44)
Yeah, very good. ⁓ How has the conference evolved since it started?

Susan Woodcock (29:51)
⁓ The very first one we did, we said, you know, there hasn’t been a conference for the industry in a long time. Let’s try to do something. Maybe we’ll get 50 people, and we got 200 people. So we learned really fast with that first conference. And that was in 2016. It has evolved to include more upholstery. So once the National Upholstery Association started, we’ve been partnering with them.

And of course we partner with the Window Coverings Association of America as well. But to get, I would love to see 50-50, upholstery and drapery people. I mean, probably about 30-70 right now. But over the years, I’m starting to see more upholstery people taking window treatment classes and more window treatment people taking upholstery classes. And that I love. I love to see that cross education. We’re all serving the same customer.

Will Hanke (30:41)
yeah.

Susan Woodcock (30:50)
So there doesn’t need to be a separate upholstery industry trade show and one for trapeze. The customers are all the same.

Will Hanke (30:55)
Sure. Yeah.

Right, yeah. Without giving away too much, are there any themes or sessions you’re especially excited about?

Susan Woodcock (31:08)
Well, I’m teaching a class this year, so that’s kind of fun. I don’t always teach classes, but I’m doing a class with ⁓ my friend Terry Sandlin on dual and tandem Roman shades. And one of the things that I do here at Workroom Tech is product development and ⁓ fabrication development, trying new methods. other people and their businesses don’t have time to try new things, so I’m always trying new things for them.

Will Hanke (31:10)
Oh, there you go.

Susan Woodcock (31:37)
So if I can come up with a ⁓ new method or try something new in the industry, a new head rail or a new drapery lining, I can do that here. So I developed a tandem Roman shade, which is two shades on one head rail and ⁓ either a roller tube or a ⁓ head rail track with spools and drive rod. And ⁓ it’s pretty cool, so I wanted to share it. So ⁓ I talked Terri into teaching with me because

I might be tied up at the first half of the class. Because I’m sort of spinning a lot of plates while I’m at the conference. But I wanted to show that at the conference. yeah, I’m excited about teaching a class. And we also have two classes this year ⁓ with teachers from England. One of them is a drapery class and one’s an upholstery class. And so that’s really exciting.

Will Hanke (32:09)
yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you are running a conference. Yes.

that’s great. I’m also going to be speaking digital marketing on a budget, so I’m excited to be sharing some information there as well.

Susan Woodcock (32:35)
Yes.

I’m looking forward to that. I can always learn something new to help us with marketing because it’s always changing. I don’t even know how you can teach a class. like the day before, they’re going to change something that you have to be up to speed with.

Will Hanke (32:43)
Yeah.

for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There’s a little effort to keep yourself educated in this world because Google, like you said, is always they’re always up to something, right? Yeah. Well, cool. Where can go where where can people go to learn more and get involved with the CWC? ⁓

Susan Woodcock (33:03)
my

Customworkroomconference.com is our website and the event brochure can be found on the website, their list of teachers, a list of exhibitors, all the information is there and we can be contacted through the website as well.

Will Hanke (33:26)
Yeah, so somebody wants to attend this year, they could still contact you.

Susan Woodcock (33:30)
Yes, so even though the registration deadline is September 1st, but we can still get you in. I’ll just have to do the name badge. It’s a little different. No big deal.

Will Hanke (33:40)
Yeah, they’re custom. That’s all.

Susan Woodcock (33:42)
Yes, custom, custom

made. Yeah, I should print them on special paper.

Will Hanke (33:47)
Yeah, yeah, that’s

cool. ⁓ Well, cool, thank you for sharing all that. ⁓ A couple just wrap up fun questions if you don’t mind. What’s one fabric you love working with but others might avoid?

Susan Woodcock (34:01)
⁓ Probably linen. People hate linen because it’s so unpredictable. I always tell the students it’s like owning a cat. It’s beautiful to look at, but you can’t train the linen to do what you want it to do. But I love working with linen and I have some linen draperies coming up, getting ready to cut. It’s a linen fabric from Scotland that was custom printed for the customer. So yeah, I’m excited about that.

Will Hanke (34:16)
yeah.

Susan Woodcock (34:31)
But yeah, there’s a lot to think about when you’re working with linen, but it’s beautiful.

Will Hanke (34:33)
Yeah, wow,

wow. What’s something outside of work that keeps you creative?

Susan Woodcock (34:40)
I love to paint and draw and do art. So that’s my mental health ⁓ break is when I can paint and in the evenings or draw and I try to keep a art journal, even if it’s just a simple five minute sketch and it just sort of takes me away. That’s the one time when I’m not thinking about work or anything else is when I’m doing art or listening to music. So ⁓ art and… ⁓

the arts, I should say, really are important to us.

Will Hanke (35:13)
Which makes sense, you got a degree in that. My wife ⁓ also enjoys painting. I got one over here that she does. So I can understand the whole getting away and kind of just focusing on what you’re doing aspect of things.

Susan Woodcock (35:16)
Yeah, true. Yeah.

nice.

Will Hanke (35:31)
So if you could go back 20 years ago and give yourself one piece of advice, what would that be?

Susan Woodcock (35:37)
Personal Susan or business Susan?

Will Hanke (35:43)
either one or both.

Susan Woodcock (35:45)
Personally, Susan, I would have gotten a divorce earlier.

Will Hanke (35:48)
Okay,

fair enough.

Susan Woodcock (35:53)
business, Susan, probably would have been more organized as a business professional. I’d been better with investing and, you know, it’s difficult when you’re self-employed to wear all the hats and try to do everything yourself. ⁓ 20 years ago, I should have had more help from accountants and ⁓ I should have had an LLC.

You know, I did that later. But, you know, now that we take advantage of those other professionals to help us run our businesses, you know, we have an accountant and we have a payroll person and a good lawyer, ⁓ the business really, the investment is worth it. Yeah, I mean, the businesses make so much more money and they do so much better. so don’t be shy about getting the help you need. And the parts of the business that…

You can’t do it all. Yeah.

Will Hanke (36:54)
Yeah,

I would definitely 100 % agree with that. Yeah, that’s smart. Well, ⁓ thank you again so much for being on today. I really appreciate it. ⁓ I love all the different things that you’re doing at the same time. ⁓ As you mentioned, kind of spinning lots of different plates. ⁓ But the things that you offer to the industry are fantastic.

Susan Woodcock (36:58)
Yeah.

Thank you. We really have a great ⁓ business. We just love the people that come to the school, that come to the conference. That’s what really drives us is the relationships with the people that we’ve met, whether they’re suppliers or students or other workroom owners. So it’s just amazing. We love it.

Will Hanke (37:39)
Yeah, very good. We will put links to everything related to this in the show notes, of course. And if people want to learn more, they can reach out through the websites. ⁓ And appreciate you being on today.

Susan Woodcock (37:52)
Thank you, we all look forward to seeing you next month at CWC. Yeah.

Will Hanke (37:54)
Thank you. Yeah, not too long, so very

good. Well, thanks again to Susan Woodcock for joining us today and giving us a closer look into the world of custom workrooms, education, and entrepreneurship. If you’re thinking about leveling up your skills or simply want to connect with others in the trade, make sure to check out Susan’s sites, homedecgal.com, workroomtech.com, or join the custom workroom conference this year.

And if you like this episode, send it to someone who’s dreaming about starting their own workroom or needs a little nudge to grow. We’ll see you next time on Marketing Panes

Guest Profile: Randy and Andy

Randy Meppelink runs a 4th-generation family business based in Michigan that doesn’t just sell machines, they also teach fabrication. Whether it’s building roller shades from scratch, improving your current workflow, or launching new products like outdoor shades, Randy and his team help window treatment pros go from retailer to full-on fabricator. He brings a rare perspective: real-life experience in fabrication and hands-on product knowledge. His facility doubles as a working fabrication space where businesses can test machines, learn the ropes, and get hands-on experience.

Andrew Meyer is the Vice President of Sales & Marketing at Indiana Coated Fabrics, a U.S. manufacturer of high-performance textiles. With over 20 years in sales, marketing, and brand development, he now focuses on serving the window shading industry through ICF’s U.S.-made blackout and light-filtering fabrics. Known for pairing market insight with a hands-on approach, Andrew helps fabricators, distributors, and designers navigate supply chain challenges and design trends. Outside work, he’s a devoted husband, father of three, and active community volunteer.

Other Notes/Links:

Window Products: Visit Website

Indiana Coated fabrics: Visit Website

Sun Shading Expo: https://sunshadingexpo.com/

 

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

 

 

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)

All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke and today we’re joined by two industry leaders helping dealers cross over into the world of in-house fabrication. So first is Randy Meppelink.

Randy runs a fourth generation family business based in Michigan that doesn’t just sell machines, they also teach fabrication, whether it’s building roller shades from scratch, improving your current workflow or launching new products like outdoor shades. Randy and his team help window treatment pros go from retailer to full on fabricator. He brings a rare perspective, real life experience in fabrication and

hands-on product knowledge. His facility doubles as a working fabrication space where businesses can test machines, learn the ropes, and get hands-on experience. Andrew Meyer, meanwhile, represents Indiana Coated Fabrics, one of the last U.S.-based manufacturers of coated-shade fabrics. While they’re known for blackout materials, ICF goes far beyond that.

They work with some of the biggest names in the industry, providing custom converting and finishing services for companies that want to apply ICF’s precision to their own textiles. For 60 years, ICF has supplied everyone from massive commercial brands to independent dealers. Andy’s mission is to help more US fabricators, big and small, access top tier materials and stand out with local made quality.

Together, they’re showing us what it really takes to bring fabrication in-house, adapt to industry shifts, and build a more resilient, profitable window treatment business. Guys, thanks for being on today. And I’m a… Yeah, and I’m out of breath now, right?

Randy Meppelink (02:03)

Yeah. Thanks, Will. We appreciate the invite. You bet.

Andrew Meyer (02:03)

Thank you. Yes.

Randy Meppelink (02:08)

Hahaha!

Andrew Meyer (02:08)

That

was quite the intro. ⁓

Will Hanke (02:12)

Yeah,

so, so let’s jump in. Randy and Andy, could you each introduce yourselves briefly and tell us a little bit about things that maybe we don’t know yet?

Randy Meppelink (02:23)

Well, thank you very much. And like you said, I am fourth generation. My family immigrated from the Netherlands. they went from Holland to Holland. So real original, right? We went from Holland, the country, to Holland, Michigan, the city. So place they felt comfortable. But a lot of people may not know a couple of things.

I’ve been in the industry really a long time since I was a child, you know, picking up or helping my grandfather. You know, we were fabricating drapery rods and, you know, shades way back in the 70s and stuff. but fast forward a little bit. One of the things that some people know and maybe a lot of don’t know, but there was a mini blind that was sold by a company called Leveler.

for years, and they had a paint system on there that was a dust guard paint that repelled dust. And I was the inventor behind that. And so that was ⁓ one of mine. so that’s something that you asked of people may not know about me. That’s one. It’s not really out there. You’d have to do the research to find it. yeah, that’s what it And I’ve been involved in a lot of product development with companies that are, whether it’s

Will Hanke (03:19)

nice.

Have a cool.

Randy Meppelink (03:39)

Hunter Douglas, Levolor, Comfortex, used to be Comfortex. Over the years, where I’ve contracted and done individual engineering products for them. So there’s many products that are out in the industry today that I have touched in one way or another in that product design. So yeah.

Will Hanke (03:58)

That’s awesome,

awesome. Very cool, how about you Andy?

Andrew Meyer (04:01)

⁓ Yes, so my name is Andrew Meyer here with ICF. While Randy and I do share the same barber as well as facial barber, I didn’t realize we’re both sporting the go-to today. I’ve been with ICF for about five years now. Tim Foster, whom a lot of the industry folk know, brought me into kind of… ⁓

kind of reinvigorate how our approach was and how we’re going to market with what we do. A lot of people in the industry know ICF and we’ve been kind of doing this blackout material for a long time. However, we do a lot of other things. Outside of shading, we do an art and entertainment ⁓ materials. We do converting work for various shade fabrics as well as other industry materials.

⁓ And we work in the industrial sector as well in making fabrics that get used in various applications. know, everything from tarmacs at the airport to your fabric HVAC materials. So lots of different things that we touch. The bulk of what we do is in the shading world. So which is why we’ve got great relationships with people like Randy and many others out there.

And as you kind of mentioned in the intro, we work with some of the biggest names in the shading industry, all the way down to the small mom and pops. And that’s what’s a lot of fun, is to be able to kind of work with both ends of the spectrum in what we do in providing fabrics to the industry.

Will Hanke (05:27)

that. love that. Randy, you mentioned that your company is four generations strong. What does it what does keeping it in the family, you know, kind of mean and for how you serve the industry today?

Randy Meppelink (05:39)

So family dynamics are extremely unique when you’re dealing with four generations in the business. Me being the third, but the fourth generation now working in the company and managing. One of the things that we did, and we ran out of kids, my wife and I, we created different divisions within the company so that they work together, but they don’t really cross over.

Andrew Meyer (05:58)

You

Randy Meppelink (06:06)

And that way it helps with the family dynamics piece of that because they’re directly responsible for their own division, whether it’s on the machinery side or whether it’s fabrication side or whether it’s supply, the different things like that involve. So that’s one of the important pieces with a family business, I think, is to have some separation for each of the members.

Will Hanke (06:27)

For sure. Yeah.

Yeah, I like that. My daughter works with me and she’s, it’s tough to keep the two things separated sometimes between dad and boss. ⁓ But so I know about the family dynamics a little bit at least. So ⁓ Andy, you mentioned that your business is, or that the business is 60 years, been around for quite a while now.

Randy Meppelink (06:41)

Yes.

Will Hanke (06:52)

How has it evolved over the decades?

Andrew Meyer (06:55)

Yeah, so ICF actually started by Bill Haldowing. He worked at a very large, just not gonna name him, very large company that did some window shading, but they also did movie screen projection screen fabrication. they had started to slow down the shading side of their business, so he actually started ICF to kind of fill that void. And…

ICF started as our name says in long format, Indiana Coated Fabrics, we coated fabrics and we made various coated textiles to service, like I said, shading industry and then morphed into projection screen industry. And then somewhere in the 90s, early to mid 90s is when we actually got our first laminator. And that opened up a whole new world of shading, shading material opportunity. So we went from

just coating fabrics to then going into being able to provide a blackout material that was laminated and not go the coding route. Now, fast forward even further, we actually do various textiles that use both of those practices. So we’ve got materials that are both laminated and coated to provide different textures, different approaches to the shading industry, as well as the projection screen industry, and as well as some of the other

other ⁓ sectors that we service. So we started with this one idea and we’ve kind of really morphed based on the needs as well as our capabilities. And so now we run ⁓ two laminators. We run a narrow width and a wide format width. And then we also have our coating oven, which has different ways in which we can apply coatings to fabrics.

Will Hanke (08:32)

Yeah.

1. Very interesting. One thing that we’ve seen a lot lately, obviously, is motorization and exterior products really are kind of trending. How do your businesses support dealers and fabricators that are looking to expand into these areas? Let’s start with Andy.

Andrew Meyer (08:51)

So yeah, we’ve been approached, obviously internally as well as some of our customers of asking, can we provide some exterior materials? like you’ve mentioned, we’ve seen significant growth. Last year ago, February, when we were at Stuttgart, it seemed like exterior was all the rave at the show out there. So we knew that’s something we need to start focusing on. And so we’ve been…

looking at bringing in some material, applying some waterproofing components to it to make it ⁓ worthy of outdoor shading or awning. So we’re exploring those. We’ve got a lot of R & D underway. So we don’t weave anything in-house, so we look for different opportunities to be able to convert fabrics to make it worthy of ⁓ outdoor, whatever the application might be. But yeah, exterior is a big focus right now for us.

Will Hanke (09:43)

Yeah, yeah, how about you, Randy?

Randy Meppelink (09:45)

I agree. It’s one of the fastest growing categories right now that we see. fabrication of exterior shades can be unique because you do need some special pieces of equipment. But us being also a fabricator and selling fabricated outdoor zip screens and channel guides, wire guide shades, we can kind of walk that dealer through to the right system that they need.

On the motorization side, you know you mentioned motors. motors are absolutely, they’re really, and you need a good brand behind it. There’s a lot of motors that are out there that can be used that are not maybe the best ones right now. so we try to help that dealer understand what are the good brands of motors? Where should we be focused on for that? But I don’t see any slowdown in the outdoor market. ⁓

Will Hanke (10:32)

You

Randy Meppelink (10:32)

It was interesting, our third person that’s going to be in the third company that’s going to be in the booth without jumping ahead was here this past week. And when we get to that part, I’ll introduce him. But anyway, we were talking about how many outdoor shades in the country of Australia are sold. And it’s phenomenal. And Australia, while it’s landmass the size of the United States, the people probably would not even fill California.

Will Hanke (11:01)

Right.

Randy Meppelink (11:01)

And yet they outsell the US in outdoor shades. And I said, my first comment to him was, well, that’s because it’s a tropical location. And he’s like, no, it’s not. says, Melbourne down in the South, he said, we’re five hours flight from Antarctica. He said, it’s cold in the wintertime, which is there now. They go north when they want to go to a warm climate. But people see that, and we’re seeing that growth move from

Will Hanke (11:25)

You

Randy Meppelink (11:30)

countries like where outdoor living is so big and it’s really gonna and when it takes off and it has but as it grows in the United States as with anything it’s going to boom.

Will Hanke (11:42)

Yeah, yeah, I don’t see any slowdown in it either. Randy, you mentioned helping people cross over into new products like the outdoor shades. Can you break down a little bit of what that looks like for a company that’s maybe just starting out?

Randy Meppelink (11:56)

Sure, sure, absolutely. And we tried to, in the beginning, and I guess probably why we enjoy helping others, obviously it’s part of our business model, but we’ve been down that road where we tried the things that if there was only somebody that could have told me way back when we started with it that, don’t do this, don’t sew the zipper on the side because that’s really not.

you should weld that on. The thread’s going to give way after years of being exposed to the out, even if you use marine threading, that type of thing. that’s what we do then with that person. When they want to do that crossover, step into a new product line. One, we always invite them to our facility. They can see what it’s like and experience. Look, these are pieces of equipment we recommend, but not everybody has a budget for this.

but maybe we can steer you towards this or we can help you get started. Maybe we’ve, you know, we’re very good at finding and moving used equipment throughout the country too, to dealers that, you know, where they have a fixed budget, how much they can spend to get started. That’s kind of what we try to do though, is just try to find those right places and right fits for everybody in that.

Will Hanke (13:08)

like that. That’s awesome that you have ⁓ the access to be able to do that. Andy, what does the domestic manufacturing mean for your customers, especially in today’s market where tariffs are top of mind?

Andrew Meyer (13:21)

This is like hot topic number one right now. ⁓ man, especially with a continually moving target on what’s going out there in the landscape. It’s actually, you know, we’ve definitely seen an uptick in a lot of smaller fabricators and smaller shops kind of turning to us. And I think, you know, as they’ve gone out to source,

Will Hanke (13:23)

Right.

Andrew Meyer (13:43)

fabrics, they’re running into some obstacles. Whether we talk about the tariff, we talk about delays in getting material overseas, there’s definitely been an uptick for us, which is great. And one of the things that we always vocalize is, hey, we are one of the last standing domestic manufacturers of what we do, which is good and bad. It definitely provides opportunities so that we can continue to provide US

made goods. Now I will give the disclaimer that you know some of the material raw materials that we have to source there are components that come from various places. We try to source as much domestic raw material as we can. However we’ve got limitations too. So we do have to go overseas for some stuff. But it is a awe inspiring moment when you you’re having a conversation you’re meeting with them you’re on the phone whatever it is and they say well so you guys actually make this stuff in Indiana. So absolutely. So

⁓ It is, it’s a humbling experience to be able to still provide that for people.

Will Hanke (14:38)

Yeah, I’m having more of those conversations with potential customers for our business as well. That’s something that is definitely top of mind right now. So ⁓ as more dealers start to fabricate in-house, what do you think is really driving that shift?

Andrew Meyer (14:49)

Absolutely.

Randy Meppelink (14:58)

I, yeah, well, I mean, what’s driving it is control, right? I mean, now you’re able to control, when you can start building it yourself and allying yourself with the correct suppliers to get what you need, you get to control the narrative of what you’re supplying. And, you know, people say, sometimes I hear it’s like, we’re not near big enough, you know, we’re not large. No, yes, you are, okay? If you build,

Andrew Meyer (14:59)

I’ll Randy answer that.

Randy Meppelink (15:22)

If you were gonna do 25 shades a week, okay, on a very small scale, there are ways to jump into fabrication that you can do that and you can, and margin and profit is not a bad word, right? And it’s all what people want, you wanna put that onto your products. so if you can build it, you can definitely be successful.

Will Hanke (15:46)

Yeah. Randy, as you work with those types of businesses, are there any patterns that you see in the people that have success implementing that?

Randy Meppelink (15:57)

Yeah, know, some of the biggest ones are, and shade people or window covering people in general, if they’ve been in business for a while, they’re very ingenuitive, intuitive, they’re very, you know, I never, I should let me back up. I am always amazed and I’m always learning from other people and unique.

procedures. Just the other day I was working with an audio visual company and they told me a way that they were installing a shade system behind columns in an office building and they were mounting it on a board first and then putting the board up behind and then mounting the board. It’s like I never heard of that idea before. It’s that’s fascinating. It’s great. It makes complete sense. You’re not trying to tuck yourself in behind and mount a bracket.

So window covering people, by far in the majority, are set up to do that. Because they do have to figure out unique things in a lot of unique situations.

Will Hanke (16:57)

Yeah, yeah, so two part question. How hard is it to get started on the fabricating of shades? And then what are some common misconceptions or fears people might have about going down that

Randy Meppelink (17:12)

So the hardness to get started is what pieces of equipment do I need to make the shades? If I’m going to do roller shades or outdoor shades, do I need from a saw to a welder to inspection hoist to a cutting table? Those four pieces of equipment are your most important pieces of equipment. And then we would look at with a fabricator that’s looking at doing it or even one that’s starting it on a small scale.

What type of space requirements do you have in your building? Make sure they understand that if they’re going to go into building outdoor shades, those extrusions come 19 to 20 foot long. So you may not be able to stand those up in your building. Now they’re going to be, how do you store them? And that being said, also understanding what freight costs can be. So if you’re ordering extrusion and it’s 19 foot long links,

you’re at the high end of what your trucking companies are going to charge because there’s a thing that they call extreme length charge. And that’s going to be a big fee. And if they’re residentially, let’s say they’re a fabricator that’s working out of their shop or barn or garage or whatever, because we run into that, that’s also a piece that’s going to be, OK, now you’ve got that fee on top of it. So those are just some of the things that we try to.

point out to them as they’re going along and they want to step into that fabrication world. Andy can pass the ball to Andy here. I like this on the screen. can move it over. But freight costs probably are one that you see a lot too as well.

Andrew Meyer (18:43)

Absolutely, it’s, you know, especially with kind of what you just mentioned about how the companies is the longer you go, the worse it gets. I mean, we do a lot of wide format material. So when we’re sending out 10 foot long rolls, it’s, know, these guys will run it through a quoting process. And it’s kind of like, okay, you you want five skids of this stuff.

you’re up against ⁓ some logistic stuff as well. So definitely those things that you kind of as a fabricator, you got to keep that in mind how to build that in.

Will Hanke (19:06)

You

Yeah, yeah, definitely an important piece of it. since we’re on this kind of thread a little bit, what is your guys take on how fabrication affects margin lead time and just overall business control?

Randy Meppelink (19:32)

So one of the things, and I’ll talk from a fabricator to a supplier a little bit here, So understanding what lead times can be and fabrics, everything that you want to order, we all want to order as a fabricator on a just in time, right? We all want to bring it. We want to order when we need it. And we’re assuming that our supplier stocks it. maybe, but they’re

If you walk a mile in their shoes, they can’t stock everything either. So it’s a fine line of material availability. And that’s the first thing. Am I right, Andy, on that? I mean, that’s it.

Andrew Meyer (20:11)

Yeah, I believe we got an order from a company called Window Products the other day asking, I’m going to send somebody down to pick up a couple of rolls. I said, hold on, let me make sure I got these.

Randy Meppelink (20:22)

And it was even after close, will you set the rules outside the building? We’ll pick it up at 2 a.m. in the morning or whatever.

Andrew Meyer (20:24)

It was!

No, there’s a lot of truth in that and I think a lot of it starts with managing expectations. Whether it’s all the way down at the end, end fabricator going straight to the consumer or all the way coming up through us and providing the material to the industry. As long as we set those expectations, everybody should be set up for success. So Randy just mentioned, a lot of the times we do our production, should say that, we do a significant amount of production as made to order.

However, while we’re doing that, we’re trying to anticipate what the market is going to do based on forecasting from some of our larger customers. So we’ll go ahead and try to run stock on three, four, or five different colors in a certain category of material. It doesn’t always work out perfectly that way, or there are situations where large orders come in and completely evaporates your

your inventory. we tell customers, hey, we’re about a three week turn on narrow width materials. We’re up to four weeks on wide width materials. And that’s just how our production scheduling runs. But we try to beat those expectations 99 % of the

Will Hanke (21:39)

Sure.

Yeah. Under promise, over deliver, right? So I’d like to, yeah, I’d like to kind of dive into the whole, like the importance of quality materials, domestic sourcing, that kind of stuff. Andy, ICF is more than just a fabric supplier. Can you walk us through what else you guys actually do for your partners?

Randy Meppelink (21:43)

Exactly.

Andrew Meyer (21:45)

set it up back, let somebody pick it up.

Absolutely, absolutely. So as I mentioned in the beginning, we are known for our four ply vinyl blackout lamination. That’s what we do. We make four ply vinyl blackout day in and day out. We do a lot of other things. We do an artist material for the art and entertainment industry. So if you picture people doing murals in kind of high end office settings or even high end homes.

⁓ We have a lot of artists that will paint these murals in studio and then reapply it in the final installation. And it’s a 100 % cotton weave that we do some acrylic coating to it to prime it and basically make it ready for the artist to do their work. That is actually one of my favorite things to work on because it is such a niche product, but yet it has such a wonderful

traction and who we deal with. So one of the things I’ve been working a lot is how to grow that side of our business just because we actually work straight with the end artists. We don’t go through any dealers or any wholesalers or anything. So that’s kind of a fun thing we do. ⁓ Projection screen, which I mentioned, we do a lot of projection screen that gets used in kind of educational format, office settings, things like that. But we do a lot of converting work.

And that’s been a huge growth sector for us. So we’ve got some pretty sizable ⁓ customers out there in the market that will send us material, whether they want to take a material that had some opacities to it and they want to make it a blackout. So we’ll go ahead and finish it with lamination to convert it into a blackout format. We might take a material and apply an FR package to it.

apply, like I mentioned earlier, apply a waterproofing package to it. Still, it’s a finished product, but they want to offer it in a couple different ways. I will say from us being domestic and doing what we do, we have been on a mission to, we got rid of the bad anemone a handful of years ago.

We’re now about 96, 7 % of the way there to get rid of anemone in its entirety. So for all of the fabric people out there, the anemone, there was a good anemone and a bad anemone. And like I said, we got rid of the bad one many years ago and now we’re getting rid of the good one so we can be completely free of the anemone additive to make ⁓ an FR package. So we’re really excited about that. And I think being domestic, we kind of have that…

that ability or that foresight to know Massachusetts, California, these states that are being very proactive and trying to get rid of that stuff, we’ve got our ear to the ground so we can be able to kind of try to be ahead of the game. And so when those things do happen and when those changes happen, we’re ready to go, we’re ready to pivot, or we already have. So yeah, we dabble a little bit in, ⁓ like I mentioned earlier, the industrial market.

And in that sense, we’re taking material and we’re putting a neoprene finishing to it. We’re making it a conductive material so that we’ve got a customer that uses this material and there’s a lot of static electricity in the application that they use. And we need to make sure that a current can pass through the fabric and so that there’s no charge being built up. So…

We get to do a lot of fun stuff. It’s just not stuff that the end user is typically aware of, because we’re so early on in the process, but a lot of different things that we do.

Will Hanke (25:31)

very cool

Will Hanke (25:31)

So Andy, let’s talk about US-based sourcing. It’s a hot topic right now. How are you seeing the industry shift and what’s kind of driving that demand?

Andrew Meyer (25:41)

Absolutely. Us as a supplier here domestically, we’ve definitely seen an uptick. And we’ve even seen it where we’ve got customers asking us, where do your raw materials come from? And we exhaust every measure possible to provide domestic raw material sources. And as I mentioned earlier, we still have to get some things from overseas. It’s just the way the industry is.

but it’s definitely something that is actively being sought after. And it’s something that is part of an active conversation when you’re introducing yourself as a textile manufacturer, people are digging to find out where does this stuff come from? So it is very much a hot topic.

Will Hanke (26:22)

Yeah, Randy, anything to add to that?

Randy Meppelink (26:25)

⁓ it’s I agree with everything Andy is saying for sure. And, you know, we’re even adding on the machinery side of things. We’re building one particular cutting machine model now in the United States. We are soon working on some other projects as well. We’re manufacturing it here only because

of the uncertainty of we don’t know where with the whole global thing of where it’s going and not to be political. We don’t know where you know we don’t know where tariffs are going to go. But you know I will say it seems like they’re here to stay for a while. So as good as any good businessman would do or woman you’re going to reinvent yourself in today’s economy and you’re going to say OK if it’s going to be US sourcing that’s what we’re going to work on. And that’s and we’re we’re definitely making a push on that whether it’s

with working with Indiana Coated Fabrics on a couple of fabrics that they can do that and whether that or with other fabric suppliers that are manufacturing the fabric here in the United States, you know, we definitely want to be sourcing locally when possible now for sure.

Will Hanke (27:33)

Yes. So, let’s let’s jump in on the tariff thing just a little bit ⁓ without going too deep into the politics side of it. How are they impacting dealers and how does working with a domestic supplier help them?

Andrew Meyer (27:37)

boy.

Ha ha ha.

Randy Meppelink (27:40)

Yeah.

So the dealers are seeing pass-through tariffs. We’re passing through tariffs as we get tariffs added to ours, whether it’s on tariffs with our component suppliers, machinery, all of it. mean, there’s basically anything that’s coming into the United States now has a tariff on it of at least 10%. Now, that 10 % is not 10 % to the dealer. So what we do is we need to

We need to figure out that number as it trickles down because what we saw, and there are suppliers out there that are charging 10 % tariff. And when you question them, like, well, that’s what the tariff is. But they’re buying it here and selling it here. They’re using it as a profit generator. And in my opinion, and Andy and I have had long talk, we kind of both agree.

Andrew Meyer (28:33)

Mm-hmm.

Randy Meppelink (28:42)

I don’t want to do it as a profit generator, but it’s not something we as manufacturers can absorb either. But we need to find that right number to pass along. I think that’s key as how you do that. A 10 % tariff trickles down to a 4 to 6 % tariff somewhere down that line. And not every product that’s even products that we source in the US

use componentry or parts of that product that they have to get from overseas. So even a US-sourced manufactured product can still have a tariff applied to it of a small percentage.

Andrew Meyer (29:17)

Yes.

Will Hanke (29:23)

Yeah, but it’s not 10 % because it’s either not fully from overseas parts or they’re doing 10 % off of the final price instead of their actual costs.

Randy Meppelink (29:34)

Yep, exactly.

Andrew Meyer (29:34)

Exactly,

⁓ We, much like Randy, we are in a similar boat. We’ve implemented a surcharge on our invoicing. We went out to every single, not every single, almost every single customer, whether we sat down with them, got on the phone, got on Teams calls, and basically talked through it and said, hey, we have been forced. Here’s where we’re going. You know, we talk about our

Will Hanke (29:36)

Yeah.

Andrew Meyer (29:58)

our raw material supply chain. We talk about how our fiberglass weave, while that’s a domestic weaver, they’re getting the yarn from India or wherever it might be. So it trickles down as Randy said. The gratifying part is after I have these conversations with all these customers of, we do have to start implementing a surcharge for the tariff, we come out to about 3.5 % is what we’ve had to put down.

What I’m hearing is some of these companies like Randy had mentioned are absolutely gouging customers on just dropping this full tariff amount. it doesn’t make sense, and you’re not doing anybody justice by doing it this way. I guess maybe in the long run it’ll help us, and people will steer away from trying to source those materials from people that are just not playing a good game.

But it’s almost in everything that we’re doing and we have to do it. It’s the only way to continue to go forward. But I can say with confidence that we have kept it as absolutely low as possible. And we’re gonna be reflective of what happens with the US administration. As Randy said, yeah, it’s probably gonna be here for a while. If it changes, if it goes down, we’ll make it go down. We don’t want this thing on there any more than the customer wants it.

will be reactive as the government reacts.

Will Hanke (31:23)

I think there’s something smart about being transparent with it. Like you said, just opening a conversation. I think that’s pretty smart. for the ones that are just blanket adding a percentage, when we see an economy kind of go down a lot, a lot of those companies start to feel the pressure and it shakes them out. And the cream rises to the top, I guess you could say.

As my mom would say, they’ll get their comeuppance, right?

Andrew Meyer (31:50)

hahahaha

Will Hanke (31:53)

So

Andy, going to toss you a little bit of a softball here. For businesses that want more control over product quality, turnaround time, what are the advantages of partnering with a US-based fabricator like ICF?

Andrew Meyer (32:08)

Absolutely. I will say first and foremost, turnaround time. Even though we’re gonna give you the expectation of roughly a three week turn, it’s gonna be typically a lot quicker than that. You’re not sitting here waiting on a ship to come overseas. You don’t have to buy an entire container. We will sell you two rolls if that’s all that you need. Would I like to sell you a container? Absolutely. But we have the flexibility of doing a

a single roll all the way up to 20 skids. So whatever the application might be. And we have a lot of flexibility because we have so many different coloring options, we have so many different finishing options. All of this being right here in the Midwest, we can do it fast and we do it with the utmost quality and we source as much of a quality component as possible.

Will Hanke (32:59)

That’s awesome. Thank you for that. So both of you, as you mentioned earlier, Randy, you guys are going to be at the Sun Shading Expo in November. ⁓ What can people that attend that show expect to see there?

Randy Meppelink (33:08)

We are.

Well, we, so we’re gonna wet the whistle on our booth, we’re not gonna, we’re just gonna say is we’re gonna have an experienced booth, okay? And we invite you to come by our booth and have, we’re gonna have a really good time, okay? And while having a good time, we’re really gonna be able to talk to you about what our theme is, taking it from fabric to finish, okay?

And that’s kind of why, you know, we have Indiana Coated Window Products, Global Machine Innovation with us and UltraCut, okay, where we’re the, together with those companies and we invite you to see why we’ve partnered with them. And, Will, one of the things, and I think I said this before, but, you know, we speak fabricator. So when we talk machines at the show,

OK? We’re walking the walk, right? I mean, we’re talking to machine. We’re not just a machine company that sells a particular line of machine. And it’s a cure-all for everything. And it does everything. We sell the machines we use every day. And that’s why when someone comes up here to see us, it’s really unique. anyway, back to the show. We got it.

We’re in Indianapolis, and that’s the race capital of the world. And that’s going to be my intro as to a little bit about what to come to expect to see ⁓ at our ⁓ booth.

Will Hanke (34:41)

Alright, fair enough, fair enough. So they can come for the experience, but they can also bring questions, like real world questions that you guys will actually be able to answer.

Andrew Meyer (34:42)

Definitely.

Absolutely, we are going to be there showcasing everything from fabric as if you just needed to get fabric and how that then translates into the process of fabricating a shade. So stepping you through from the beginning all the way to a finished product.

And that way we can field questions. Hey, I’ve got technical questions on the material. I’ve got technical questions on the end use of the fabricated shade or anything in between. So we’re really excited to be able to kind of create this kind of three dimensional approach utilizing ultra cut window products in ourselves in a booth setting. So I will say you better race to get to our booth. What?

Will Hanke (35:33)

I like that. I have a booth as well. hope mine is facing towards yours so I can see some of the fun, right?

Should be good. So what role does collaboration between companies like yours play in helping dealers succeed? Randy?

Randy Meppelink (35:50)

So really, where that comes in is when we start with a fabricator, we start talking to them about a cutting table and then fabric. We have that conversation typically then about, well, where do I get fabrics from? What’s my best sources? And that’s where our partnerships like with Ediana Coated is. We want to tell the story to that fabricator. We want to say, we’re going to put you in touch with Andy. You need to talk to him.

And they’re going to take care of your needs in this particular line of fabric. And if you need this style of fabric, we’re going to guide you in those directions. And motorization, same thing. Some of the products we sell, we’re not taking any back end or commission or anything. We’re just wanting, we want them to be successful. Because.

to borrow a term from a friend of mine who’s retired out of the industry, but John Fitzgerald, and I got to call his name out, he was the vice president of Comfort Tax, him and Tom Marczak, but he coined the term a long time ago, your success is our success. And when he said that, I’ve always remembered that. That was 25 years ago when he said that at a meeting. that really is, their success, a fabricator’s success is my success, it’s Andy’s success. And that’s how we.

That’s how we grow together.

Will Hanke (37:08)

Yeah, yeah, there’s something really good about as a business owner or representative of being a coach for somebody. So they come into your booth, we need fabric. go talk to that guy. You know, you’re the resource, but you’ve also kind of brought them all together in one spot. That’s fantastic.

Andrew Meyer (37:08)

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Will Hanke (37:28)

Yeah, really cool. What are you guys most excited to showcase at the expo? And you’ve kind of already hinted to some sort of surprise, but I’m curious what you guys are excited to showcase.

Andrew Meyer (37:40)

I think it’ll be fun that we’re gonna be able to demonstrate the fabricating of a shade. We’re gonna be able to demonstrate kind of all that is involved with that. But obviously there’s gonna be some fun stuff for them to do when they step into the booth. But yeah, being able to showcase this 360 degree approach, whether it’s a wholesaler, whether it’s an end fabricator, we can touch all these different points of the market with one stop.

Randy Meppelink (38:06)

We’re going to have a new cutting table, brand new design. This cutting table is designed for the entry level person that wants to get into shade fabrication, whether indoors or outdoors. And we’re super excited about that. We’ll have a mini model of it for display and operation. then we have on the outdoor side with Ultra-Cut, we’ll have some of our new products

our new welding equipment with that as well. we’ve got some brand new stuff coming to the market that we’re excited to share.

Will Hanke (38:36)

And as you mentioned, the ⁓ Sun Shading Expo is in November. This is 2025 that you’re listening to it right now. Excited to do that. Obviously it’s in Indiana. As a midwesterner, that’s fantastic for me. I can drive to it. That doesn’t happen very often, but I guess you guys probably can too, right?

Randy Meppelink (38:53)

Correct?

Will Hanke (38:55)

That’s awesome. So a couple quick bonus questions for somebody who’s listening and considering the in-house fabrication. What’s the first step they should realistically take?

Randy Meppelink (39:08)

Wanting to if, OK, the first step is preparing your budget. How much do you want to spend to get in? OK, now, that being said, nobody wants to spend more than they have to. ⁓ but realistically, come up with a realistic number of what is where you’re at. And you might be shocked at what it takes to get into making shades.

Will Hanke (39:21)

You

Randy Meppelink (39:35)

It may not be as high as what you think it is. A lot of people from the machine side of things here, and they see all the fancy XYZ type CNC cutting machines, they can be very expensive. They can be very, ⁓ what’s the word I’m trying to think of, awe-inspiring. It’s like, wow, do I really need all that? we did a test here. ⁓

on Thursday, we had an XY table and we had an operator working on a Y-axis only table. And we timed it in a good shade cutter, outcut the XY, the computer table. And we were all shocked. And because if we were all betting, we would have thought the XY was faster. But it wasn’t. And it is in some cases. it’s not. And so really, start out with your budget.

Space requirements, how much, you know, come talk, when you talk to me, I’m going to ask you those questions. I’m going to say, how big a space do you have? Okay. We can do a layout for you. You know, Mitch in our office will actually do a factory layout on a CAD system as to how your factory should look like. You know, what, that needs to see. And, and then how much space do you have to store fabric? You know, we want you to store a lot of Indiana coated fabrics. So it’s ready and available to make shades.

Will Hanke (40:51)

Okay.

That’s good. Thank you for kind of laying that out. Big picture. What trend do you guys will shake up the window covering world in the next three to five years?

Andrew Meyer (41:10)

I think the exterior side of that business is gonna continue to just be explosive, something we’re gonna be paying a lot attention to. And I think a lot of the work that we’ve been doing lately, we’re seeing a lot of, ⁓ man, how do I say this? We’re seeing a lot of textiles that…

didn’t necessarily come to the market as a blackout format are now having that option added. So I think you’re going to see a lot more design centric be.

in combination with those types of characteristics. I think you’re also going to see some more dual shade stuff come out too. I mean, I know there’s a good portion of it, but ⁓ we’re seeing a lot more requests of, we want this fabric of yours to be in conjunction with this other fabric that we’re sourcing for a dual shade purpose. yeah, that’s my crystal ball, but by no means is it crystal clear.

Will Hanke (42:04)

Yeah. All right. Anything to add, Randy?

Randy Meppelink (42:06)

I would agree on ⁓ looking in the same crystal ball on outdoor shades and dual shades. Those are the two fastest growing categories we see. And for a fabricator, since we’re talking to fabricators in this podcast, a dual shade is two shades on one window. That’s twice as much product that you can make. those are opportunities, not negatives. Those are opportunities for growth.

Will Hanke (42:35)

good, very good. If my wife knew that there was such a thing, I’m sure she would order it, right?

Not necessarily because she needs it, just because she wants it, right? So thank you guys for being on today. ⁓ If somebody wants to learn a little bit more and connect with you guys, what is the best way for them to do so? We’ll start with Randy.

Randy Meppelink (42:56)

OK, so emailing our company is probably the best way. We will always talk to you on the phone. Don’t get me wrong. But with the amount of phone calls that come in, it’s very difficult to as much time and effort as you are not effort, but as much time into speaking to everybody. email is the best that we can get started and then kind of gives us some direction. Great way we’ll respond. I’ll get you to the right persons in the company here, whether it’s machinery, fabrication, new products, that type of thing.

at that would be randy @ window products inc inc.com so [email protected] and I’ll direct that email and I respond to everybody so I will definitely respond back.

Will Hanke (43:24)

Okay, what is that email?

Okay, perfect.

Awesome, we’ll put that in the show notes as well if anybody wants to, if you’re driving and can’t write that down at the moment, we’ll make sure that you get that. How about you, Andy?

Andrew Meyer (43:48)

⁓ Yeah, very similar setup to what Randy mentioned. ⁓ By all means, check out ⁓ www.indianacoatedfabrics.com A good amount of resource on there to kind of illustrate what it is we do and the different sectors that we kind of play in. But also, shoot me an email. ⁓ Phone calls are great, but kind of like Randy said, it’s just constantly…

bouncing off the hook here, but Andrew.Meyer M-E-Y-E-R @ indianacoatedfabrics.com.

Will Hanke (44:19)

Awesome. And again, we’ll put that in the show notes with a link to your website and everything. Thank you guys. Any last thoughts for professionals trying to grow in this industry?

Randy Meppelink (44:30)

My biggest one, as you’re going to hear this before the trade show, go to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis. Please. It’s a great opportunity. you’re considering fabrication, or if you’re considering even looking for new suppliers, whether it’s fabrics, or components for your motors, or anything in our industry, go to the trade shows. Trade shows are so important. And this one.

This sun shading expo is really geared towards rolling products, things that roll up, up and down. That’s the biggest part of our industry right now. And if you’re selling that, you need to be there.

Andrew Meyer (45:10)

Same sentiment is come check out the show. Indianapolis is an extremely easy city to get to, whether by car or by plane. And obviously being downtown focused, the show itself is going to be so well contained that it’s just very accessible and there’s going to be lots and lots of great stuff there for people to check out.

Will Hanke (45:29)

Yeah, it’s a great show. I’ve attended the last three or four years in a row now and it seems like it gets bigger every year. It’s fantastic. Yeah. Well, thank you guys again for being on the show today. You shared some fantastic things that ⁓ that really, really can help people that are maybe thinking or maybe they weren’t even thinking of going that route. So they’ll reach out to you, hopefully.

Randy Meppelink (45:38)

Absolutely, it has been.

Will Hanke (45:55)

to talk a little bit more about that. But thanks for giving us kind of a behind the scenes look at what’s really possible for dealers to take fabrication into their own hands.

Randy Meppelink (46:05)

Well, thank you. Thanks for having us.

Andrew Meyer (46:06)

Yes, yeah, thank you

Will Hanke (46:06)

Yeah,

Andrew Meyer (46:07)

for having, yes, thank you so much. It was a lot of fun.

Will Hanke (46:07)

yeah, appreciate it. Yeah, if this got you thinking about the next step for your business, whether it’s sourcing smarter, fabricating in-house, or simply finding more control in your process, I hope you found something actionable today. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, consider subscribing or sharing it with someone in the industry who might find it helpful. You can find more episodes and resources over at Window Treatment Marketing Pros on YouTube.

Spotify, iTunes, and all the usual places. Until our next episode at Marketing Panes thanks for listening.

In this episode of Marketing Panes, host Will Hanke sits down with Russ Elinson of Arjay’s Window Fashions and Rory McNeil of Shading and Automation Solutions to unpack what’s really happening in the window treatment world as we head into Q3 2025. It’s not all bad news despite economic headwinds, dealers are finding smart, strategic ways to stay profitable. From industry trends to overlooked tools and lead sources, this episode offers real-world insights for professionals navigating a shifting landscape.

Guest Profile: Russ Elinson

Arjay’s Window Fashions

Serves as Principal of Arjay’s Window Fashions, spearheading strategic growth at Window Products Management, Inc. A USC graduate, Russ brings proven leadership in the window coverings industry.

Rory McNeil

WindowShading.Pro

Seasoned leader in the window coverings industry and founder of WindowShading.Pro. With decades of experience, from launching Eclipse Blinds in the U.S. to co-founding TechStyles, He now heads Shading & Automation Solutions (SAS), continuing to drive innovation in shading and automation.

The Reality of “Survival Mode” in 2025

Many window treatment dealers are adjusting expectations this year, shifting from aggressive growth to business stability. As consumer spending softens and buyers delay home upgrades, staying flat is considered a success. Russ describes it as “flat is a win,” and this mindset is helping dealers focus on internal efficiencies, consistent lead flow, and retaining talent.

Why This Isn’t a Bad Thing

Survival mode pushes dealers to double down on what works. From hiring in-house installers to improving scheduling control, it’s about building a resilient, self-reliant business that can weather slow quarters and bounce back stronger.

Import Duties and Industry Shake-Ups

One major challenge in Q1 and Q2 of 2025 was the rapid increase in import tariffs—jumping from 10% to 50% without warning. This has created a cashflow crisis for many fabricators, especially those with goods already in transit.

Who’s Gaining an Edge?

Surprisingly, manufacturers based in Mexico or sourcing outside China are gaining traction. They can avoid steep U.S. duties while still offering competitive pricing, giving them an advantage in a tight market. Domestic fabricators are also seeing opportunities, especially if they can offer shorter lead times and stable pricing.

The Tech Tools Closing More Sales

Technology is playing a big role in helping dealers stand out and close faster. One standout mentioned in the episode is Sunseeker, a sun-tracking app used to visualize how sunlight moves through a room. It’s a powerful tool for convincing skeptical homeowners that window treatments aren’t just a luxury—they’re protection for their floors and furniture.

Automating Quotes and Simplifying Installs

Top dealers are using laser measuring tools and quoting software like Solatech to speed up the sales process, reduce errors, and close deals on the spot. Even simple app control for motorized shades is becoming the norm, with clients expecting remote or phone-based operation.

More Than Just Homeowners: Diversifying Your Lead Sources

With residential leads slowing down, forward-thinking dealers are expanding into commercial work, partnerships, and media opportunities.

Russ’s Lead Generation Advice

• Commercial Projects: Small to medium jobs (25 to 300 windows) are often ignored by national companies and can be very profitable.
• Trade Partners: Relationships with general contractors, designers, and real estate agents pay off long-term.
• Traditional Media: TV segments and direct mail still work, especially in markets where digital competition is tight.
• In-Person Networking: From hosting events in showrooms to attending trade expos, showing up matters.

Show Notes

• Sunseeker App
  A solar tracking app used during consultations to show sun path and help clients understand the value of solar protection and proper shading.
• Windows Shading Pro Newsletter
  Curated by Rory McNeil, this free newsletter has been around since the 1990s and provides industry updates, product highlights, and business insights.
  Sign up here: Windows Shading Pro Newsletter
• Sun Shading Expo 2025

Other Notes/Links:

pssst…. want to be a guest on the show?

Listen to other episodes

Arjay’s Window Fashions: Visit Website

WindowShading.Pro: Visit Website

Video

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TRANSCRIPT

Will Hanke (00:00)
All right, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. My name is Will Hanke. Today is a special episode. We’ve got not one, but two industry leaders joining us and we want to talk about Q3, which is just around the corner.

And maybe we’ll talk a little bit about Q2 as well and see how well it went. But we’ve got some great guests today. So Russ Elinson serves as the principal of Arjays’s Window Fashions, spearheading strategic growth at Window Products Management, Incorporated. A USC graduate, Russ brings proven leadership in the window coverings industry. And Rory McNeil, who’s been with us before, he’s a seasoned leader in the window coverings industry.

And founder of Windows Shading Pro. With decades of experience from launching Eclipse blinds in the US to co-founding TechStyles, he now heads Shading and Automation Solutions, or SAS, continuing to drive innovation in shading and automation. Gentlemen, it’s fantastic to have you here.

Rory McNeil (01:13)
Thanks for having me.

Russ Elinson (01:13)
Thanks for having us.

Will Hanke (01:15)
Appreciate it. So let’s jump in. want to I don’t want to spend too much time bantering back and forth, but let’s talk about what pulled you into the industry. Maybe we’ll start with Russ. What kind of pulled you in? Was it love at first sight or was it more of a slow burn?

Russ Elinson (01:30)
Well, my situation is perhaps a little different. I was born into the industry, so that could be a blessing or a curse, depending on how you look at it. I grew up in a window covering manufacturing business. So from five years old, running around a warehouse and assembling brackets and sweeping floors and counting rolls of fabric. I never thought I would wind up in the industry. Coming out of school, wound up in the family business.

I was there for 10 years and been moved on into my own business venture on the retail side of the business that was 14 years ago.

Will Hanke (02:03)
Okay. long time ago. Rory, what about yourself?

Rory McNeil (02:03)
Long time ago.

Russ Elinson (02:06)
To be 45 and have 25 years plus experience in the industry full time is a lot.

Will Hanke (02:13)
You

Rory McNeil (02:14)
The wild thing is Russ that back when Russ was running around the floors in that fabricator, I was visiting them from the UK. That goes back a long way. Yeah.

Russ Elinson (02:23)
well

Will Hanke (02:25)
You’re dating.

Russ Elinson (02:26)
So needless to say, Rory and I have known each other a long time.

Will Hanke (02:29)
Yeah, yeah. Rory, what kind of pulled you into the industry first?

Rory McNeil (02:33)
Nepotism just like Russ. Yeah, my father and uncle had started a window covering business in the UK. That was called Apollo Blinds was first this retail franchise operation and been Eclipse Blinds applied the franchisees with Apollo branded product. And they also supplied every other independent fabricator of blinds in the UK. And been I got involved in the company in the mid 80s to start the export department because we we’d grown so much in the UK.

Will Hanke (02:35)
Okay.

Rory McNeil (03:02)
Only 65 million people to work with, you it’s not a big market. And so within about five years, we were selling to 36 countries around the world. A lot of fun.

Will Hanke (03:11)
Yeah, wow, what a journey that’s been. Thanks for sharing that. Russ, I know you guys, Arjays’s is doing quite well in the Southwest, I guess is where you guys are at. What was the point when you thought, know, okay, we’re not just surviving, we’re leading?

Russ Elinson (03:28)
I think the big change happened once we started hiring full-time installation technicians. Stop relying for the most part on subcontractors and just building a full team that would be with the company for a long time. That allows us to pivot our installation team almost daily if we need to when schedules are behind or ahead of schedule, just to control our own destiny in that regard.

Will Hanke (03:50)
Love that there is definitely something to be said about an entrepreneur that has to, you when you get to that point where you start hiring and you’re like, wow, this is incredible. It’s scary at first, but been it’s also quite freeing, you know.

Russ Elinson (04:01)
Yes, for sure.

Rory McNeil (04:04)
Will, do you notice that with some of the more successful retailers that they do employ their own installers? Because it’s quite important.

Will Hanke (04:13)
Yeah, think for most clients, think early on, they’re the ones running sales and installs. And finding installers a little bit tougher than it has been in the past. But yeah, absolutely. If they can start to find their own installers or somebody that’s moonlighting maybe two or three different window treatment companies in the same city, that seems to work out well.

Rory McNeil (04:33)
Russ, how have you been able to find new installers? Do you train them from within?

Russ Elinson (04:39)
It’s a kind of a mixed bag. Some of them we found with just construction experience and brought them on and been they’ve trained from a more master seasoned installer. Others we’ve been fortunate that as our businesses have grown in each of the markets, it’s been a good source for recruiting where people just wanted to come work for our company because they’ve heard our reputation of building a team and the cool projects that we were going after and the continual flow of work that’s been happening with our company.

So it’s definitely a mixture.

Will Hanke (05:08)
That’s nice. Always nice when you have people coming to you and raising their hand versus you having to go find them, right? Yeah, that’s fantastic. So I want to talk about 2025, been obviously another strange year in the window treatment world. What do you guys think is driving growth right now? Let’s start with Rory.

Russ Elinson (05:13)
It does happen.

Rory McNeil (05:27)
Well, I would say that most retailers in the marketplace and most fabricators are just hanging on for dear life while they’re watching people pause their decision making and hold on to their earnings and the importance of pause of non-essential purchases. People can put off window covering purchases if they think that there’s trouble ahead. And we’ve been looking at six months worth of trouble.

Will Hanke (05:52)
Yeah.

Russ Elinson (05:53)
I have to say I agree. That’s what we found. I don’t know that this has been a year of growth. It’s more a year of being stable, hopefully, or minimizing your decline. ⁓ Certainly, the fear of tariffs had a little bit of a spike towards the end of the first quarter, where everyone rushed to buy beforehand. But once the tariffs hit and it impacted so many businesses in our industry, whether or not price increases moved down the

Will Hanke (06:03)
Yeah.

Russ Elinson (06:19)
The supply chain homeowner’s mentality is like, hey, I’m going to be paying too much. I better pause for a second as Roy was saying and wait. I think it’s flat is a win for any dealer.

Will Hanke (06:34)
Definitely same thing we’re seeing from the marketing side. A lot of our clients had a pretty good Q1, but it’s been, I don’t know about downhill, but it’s definitely been trending not as uphill, I guess would be a good way to say it.

Rory McNeil (06:49)
Yeah, there was definitely

Russ Elinson (06:49)
Yeah.

Rory McNeil (06:50)
A lot of business optimism in Q1, but that’s been tempered a little bit by just not knowing what’s going to happen next. mean, I know fabricators who have a container on the ocean with, you know, $100,000 worth of aluminum in it. And at one point they knew that there was 10 % duty and now there’s 50 % duty. So that’s the difference between paying $10,000 and $50,000. It’s a cashflow nightmare.

Will Hanke (07:17)
Yeah, that’s interesting to hear about it like that, but definitely makes sense. So do you think it’s also affecting manufacturers like Made in the USA, where they kind of say, don’t have to pay tariffs, but I guess they have to pay on the actual hard products?

Rory McNeil (07:33)
Russ?

Russ Elinson (07:34)
Well, I I think they’re paying the tariff to some degree on components, right? Very limited amount of actual window covering components that go into the finished product actually come from the U.S., right? So there’s some level of tariff. think some of the smaller fabricators that build in the U.S. have held off perhaps too long, raising pricing from their perspective, thinking that that would generate more market share growth for them. I don’t know whether that’s happened or not. We’ve seen some modest price increases with domestic fabricators. It’s been more extreme with those that are manufacturing in overseas or across the border in Mexico, for sure.

Rory McNeil (08:11)
Yeah. And Will, what’s interesting is that if you’re a manufacturer like Springs or Hunter in Mexico, been you’re able to bring in goods to Mexico with very minimal duties and been sell into the U.S. without the same duties that U.S. manufacturers have to pay on fabrics and aluminum coming from other countries. So it gives Mexican manufacturing an advantage over U.S. manufacturing, which is kind of, unfortunately, the opposite of what was was hoped to have been created.

Will Hanke (08:40)
Yeah, we’ve also seen an increase in phone calls from manufacturers in the marketing world because suddenly they’re thinking they have an advantage that they need to get out in front of dealers. know, hey, by the way, we make this right down the road from you. You should buy it from us.

Rory McNeil (08:58)
Yeah. Well, Russ knows as well as anybody else that there’s certain extruders of profiles for shutters that manufacture in Taiwan and not in China. And that gives them a big advantage in the market until there’s a Chinese tariff deal reached, which apparently is imminent for the last six months.

Will Hanke (09:15)
Sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

Russ Elinson (09:17)
And been it’ll get moved to another country, which will be hit with that same thing and another and another. So the cycle continues, unfortunately.

Will Hanke (09:25)
Yes, it does. Let’s talk about emerging trends. What are you guys seeing in the window treatment industry in the last couple of months? And how can the listeners kind of start to align their businesses to stay competitive?

Russ Elinson (09:39)
From our perspective, I think there’s a growth of people interested in both exterior product and also a continued growth in automation, motorized projects. But something that simple app control from their phone, it doesn’t have to be tied into a third party automation system. It doesn’t have to be in a huge mansion. Just regular homeowners are looking for convenience and timer scheduling. Certainly outdoor living spaces is a big area of growth in our part of the country in Southern California and the Phoenix market where we service. retractable awnings, retractable exterior screens, that’s an area of growth for us, certainly.

Rory McNeil (10:18)
Will, you deal with lot of retailers who are dabbling with exterior shading and awnings. It’s not always that easy to see a retailer who’s typically in the interior window covering business make the transition into exterior. But the best retailers understand that that’s the business they’re in. They’re in the business of shading all of the areas of the home inside and out. It’s just that they have to go to seminars, they have to train their installers, they have to do the work that’s required to train staff.

And Russ has been doing that at least for 10 years. When’s the first time you sold a exterior shading job, Russ? Yeah.

Russ Elinson (10:49)
Years. that’s probably 10 years ago.

Will Hanke (10:54)
That’s amazing. Yeah, I’d say two or three years ago, we probably had less than 10 % of our clients that did exterior stuff. And now that number is probably creeping up towards 30%, 35%. Yeah, they’re all looking at the exterior stuff. What I hear is it’s a different breed of installer that they have to find. So that starts almost all the way over, finding those kinds of installers as well.

It’s definitely an uphill battle for some of these clients, but a decent amount of them have started to transition.

Russ Elinson (11:25)
The nice thing with exterior sales is the average invoice is going to be higher typically than the average interior window covering invoice.

Will Hanke (11:32)
Right, for sure. Yeah. On the marketing side, getting those leads is not as difficult or not more difficult than getting a window treatment lead. But like you said, the average ticket value is a lot higher.

That’s really nice. Yeah. Is there is there any since we’re talking a little bit about marketing, is there any marketing thing that you’ve done, Russ, maybe that has completely flopped?

Russ Elinson (11:56)
Yelp from many years ago, that was a terrible flop. ⁓ I think that company is extortionist. So, I mean, that’s pretty well known, but that was definitely a failure years back.

Will Hanke (12:01)
Okay.

It’s interesting you say that because you’re in California. The one thing that I’ve learned is Californians love Yelp for some reason. Most of the rest of the US doesn’t, but it seems like our California clients seem to want to advertise on there and they use that. Like we, we don’t even think I have Yelp on my phone. But interesting that you say that. I have heard people call it mafia style tactics on Yelp.

Russ Elinson (12:38)
for sure.

Will Hanke (12:38)
And they’ve also been kicked out of Google a couple times because of those unscrupulous tactics.

Rory McNeil (12:43)
Yeah,

daughter went to UC Davis and went to school with a guy who became a sales rep in Yelp. the stories were pretty horrific. How they incentivize the sales guys, know, basically extortionist Russ is talking about, you know, we have Arjay’s on our system and they’re getting all the leads should be you should be paying into our system. You know, that’s just fear and fear and

What was the word? Fear? forget what the acronym is, just FEE? Yeah, something like that. FOMO? Yeah. Pretend FOMO. Yeah.

Will Hanke (13:08)
Yeah.

Russ Elinson (13:12)
We are missing out.

Will Hanke (13:15)
Yeah.

I also spoke to a guy the other day who was using or was spending money on Yelp. I think the minimum seven fifty a month. In the meantime, he got a one star review on Yelp and now he’s afraid to stop spending the money because that one star review is being suppressed because he’s an advertiser there. And so he was he was spending the seven fifty for the one star not to show up.

Rory McNeil (13:37)
Okay.

Russ Elinson (13:42)
What’s so scary about all of that is that people do look at Yelp and our ratings on Yelp are lower because they hide any five-star review if you’re not advertising with them. So our design consultants, when they’re in the home, will try to get ahead of that and direct the homeowners to look at our Google reviews, which your company, has been so instrumental over the last year in helping us grow that review base ⁓ and seeing all the five-star reviews that come out of Google hopefully wash out.

Will Hanke (14:05)
Yeah.

Russ Elinson (14:11)
Yelp and can be explained away. That’s a business that only generates money when you’re paying for advertising.

Rory McNeil (14:17)
Yeah, I think it’s clear that Google’s gonna eat their lunch on restaurants and businesses reviews for a long time to come.

Will Hanke (14:26)
Yeah, yeah. So as we look at Q3 and maybe even into Q4, are there any tech related shift things that business owners should be prepared for? Whether that’s product availability, pricing, customer demand, what do you guys see in there?

Rory McNeil (14:42)
Russ, do you see that more of your customers want their window coverings wired into the home through a central control system or are they still kind of looking at them as different motorized solutions, smart home solutions?

Russ Elinson (14:56)
I think it’s different motorized solutions. The challenge becomes most people that have existing homes aren’t going to be willing to have an electrician rip open their walls to pull wiring. Does it happen? Sure. Did I do it at my house? Yes, because I didn’t want to deal with charging batteries. But for the most part, I think that’s not the case. So an existing home is getting a retrofit rechargeable battery solution and new construction. That’s when you have the opportunity to get in and recommend wiring.

Rory McNeil (15:25)
Do you ever have any homeowners who say to you, I’m trying to standardize around matter? Are you guys offering matter compatible motors?

Russ Elinson (15:32)
Matter actually has not come up at all with any homeowners. Zigbee barely has come up with any homeowners. I think the homeowners mentality generally is, can I have a remote? Can I have a switch on the wall? Can I operate it from my phone? And beyond that, they haven’t thought much further. Occasionally you’ll have an engineer that’s done some research and requests a Z-Wave system or a Zigbee system. But in general, it’s

I just want to operate it from my phone and a remote.

Will Hanke (16:01)
I’ll say that would be me. I wouldn’t want to be able to have Alexa do it all for me just by me raising my right hand or something, right?

Russ Elinson (16:08)
Yeah,

Rory McNeil (16:09)
Yeah.

Russ Elinson (16:09)
I mean, it’s definitely a mixture for sure. We’ll see.

Rory McNeil (16:12)
And how many go ahead, we’ll try.

Will Hanke (16:12)
Russ,

you see a difference in the type of customer that’s asking for those things, maybe like an age difference?

Russ Elinson (16:20)
I think people that like automated, I should say motorized shades may tend to be those with more discretionary income, perhaps more on the retirement end or later in their career path, where they just don’t want to walk over and pull chains. They’ve lived in homes where manual shades just stay down most of the time. There is a trend though in I would say millennial and end of generation X where they’re more comfortable with automation.

and having an app control. And so to them, it becomes less about having a remote and more about being able to control it from their phone and being able to set scenes or timer scheduled events. I think that’s important to the couples that are getting closer towards retirement or are there. Maybe the app control is not so important, but just having the ability to operate the shade with a button as opposed to pulling the chain.

Rory McNeil (17:09)
What about periodic or scheduled opening and closings? Do most of your installers set up those schedules for consumers, Russ, when you do installation?

Russ Elinson (17:19)
We don’t generally set them up because we found that they will keep our installers there for hours after the installation has happened. So they’ll pair the motors to the app system. Generally, we’re using Bond for most of our RTS controls. We’ll show them how to operate the shades, how to set up a scene, how to set up a schedule, perhaps one, and been that’s it. And there’s plenty of YouTube videos that walk them through that process if they struggle.

Will Hanke (17:46)
yet.

Russ Elinson (17:46)
We’ve also had to recommend to our design consultants to perhaps not offer app control to those homeowners they can see up front or perhaps not technologically savvy.

Rory McNeil (17:57)
Yeah, makes sense.

Will Hanke (17:59)
Yeah, definitely makes sense. Are there any tech tools on the sales side that you guys think dealers should be using right now?

Russ Elinson (18:08)
I mean, I think there’s a movement of dealers towards automated quoting systems. There’s several obviously out there, Solitech being one and a few others using those type of automated systems in the home to quote while you’re there, minimizes mistakes. I think anyone who’s not using it or something like that is missing out for sure. The days of pricing jobs by hand out of a giant product reference guide should have long been terminated. So for anyone getting into the industry or someone who’s been in the industry a long time but isn’t using one of those software packages, I would highly recommend researching which one would be right for their business.

Rory McNeil (18:49)
Russ, do you see anybody using like disto measuring tools with Bluetooth capability? Do any of your design consultants do that?

Will Hanke (18:49)
Agreed.

Russ Elinson (18:57)
I think there are some, I mean, we have laser measures for all of our design consultants. We choose not to integrate it directly into the quoting software. Things change while you’re in discussion with the homeowner. So I’d much rather walk in with a yellow legal pad, take my notes, I shoot my measurements with a laser, those that are inside mount at least, and been record everything. So that way I have a firm idea if something changes from inside mount to outside mount, or it goes from a cellular shade to,

maybe a natural shade or something where the height measurement matters more, just so you have a clear written idea of what you measured. It’s my preference.

Rory McNeil (19:33)
Do think it makes

a difference if you’re the only retailer calling on this customer who’s using laser measures and everybody else is in there with the foldable bendable tape measures?

Russ Elinson (19:45)
I’m sure there’s some positive response that you get out of it. Wow, what’s that? I’ve never seen one before. And been we just explain how precision measuring is something that’s a part of our business model.

Will Hanke (19:56)
So we had, we actually wanted to get some windows done. have some faux wood blinds that we’ve had since we moved in 15, 16 years ago. So we actually had a window treatment dealer out to our home this week. And Russ, you’re spot on because my wife got involved and we went from roller shades to just regular pull down shades to shutters all in the matter of 20 minutes. And the guy visiting, that’s basically, he just wrote everything down because she was

Russ Elinson (20:21)
Yep.

Will Hanke (20:26)
going through all these different decisions, obviously guided her in a direction. And once we decided, been he popped open his, I guess he maybe had an iPad with a keyboard on it or something, plugged everything in and I mean, took our credit card and we were done. It was fantastic.

Russ Elinson (20:42)
Yeah, and measuring for a faux wood blind is very different than measuring for a shutter. There’s more critical measurements at many different points, so that’s why I like writing things down.

Will Hanke (20:52)
Yeah.

Rory McNeil (20:52)
From a sales standpoint, the quoting software you’re talking about Russ, if you’re in the home and you’re not able to close the sale while you’re in the home, been you’ve increased your chances of losing the sale.

Russ Elinson (21:05)
Absolutely.

Will Hanke (21:07)
Yeah. On the other side of this, is there any tech trend or product that you guys think that has been overhyped and not really delivering the ROI?

Rory McNeil (21:15)
Russ, do you want to handle that?

Russ Elinson (21:17)
I don’t know of one specifically that I’m thinking of. there something that comes to mind for you, Rory?

Rory McNeil (21:23)
There was something earlier, but now I can’t remember. I’ll come back to that. That’s what happens when you get too old, I guess.

Will Hanke (21:26)
no.

Russ Elinson (21:30)
I mean, just on perhaps one end, I think there’s a large marketing effort towards Zigbee automation motors and it’s a very good system. I agree. I don’t think it’s applicable at this time for the typical homeowner. I think what’s tried and true with RTS that’s been out for 20 plus years still works really well. Certainly we’re going to all be pivoting towards a Zigbee or matter or some solution as it’s related to that.

But from my perspective, I’m gonna wait a little bit, continue with what works for us and see how the market hashes itself out technologically wise and what communication protocol wins over the next few years.

Rory McNeil (22:09)
Russ, do you have any design consultants who use any kind of azimuth solar range or solar movement apps to show how the light changes in the house?

Russ Elinson (22:19)
I mean, I do for sure and a couple of hours do there’s a wonderful app called Sunseeker. I don’t remember what yeah, I don’t remember what that one costs at the time. Maybe it’s $15 or something. But it’s always interesting when you get a husband and wife that are arguing over whether or not they should put shades in a certain room and you look down at their beautiful flooring and realize that you’re south facing or west facing and the amount of sun that’s going to come through and they say

Rory McNeil (22:26)
Yeah, I have it.

Russ Elinson (22:47)
No, no, no, there’s no sun that comes through here. And been you pull out an app and you show them in 3D the path of the sun during the summer and winter, winter when it’s lowest and can penetrate in the deepest or summer when it’s higher and they don’t notice it as much. And been quickly the attitude changes of, they start thinking about how much it’s gonna cost to refinish that wood floor and the shades quickly become back on the table.

Rory McNeil (23:11)
Yeah, curiously, well, Lutron basically created an app around that kind of technology and guys like Russ’s business partner, John Edwards, who you’ve communicated with. John is kind of an expert in that area. So he’s an expert in, I guess you’d call it a fenestration, right?

Will Hanke (23:30)
right. Well, that’s cool. I didn’t know about that app, but we’ll look that up and make sure to link that in the show.

Russ Elinson (23:30)
Yes, and he could explain it incredibly well.

Rory McNeil (23:34)
He

Russ Elinson (23:38)
Yeah, it’s a great tool. John actually found that app many, years ago, introduced it to me, and it’s been so useful in many regular design appointments with homeowners and also in commercial projects where perhaps the architect doesn’t think they’re going to have a sun problem, but they certainly do.

Will Hanke (23:54)
Interesting. Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. I appreciate it. So we talked a little bit about the maybe the economy slowing down. People are not making as many spending choices or not in our favor, at least right now. What would you advise as we’re going into Q3 for window treatment business owners really to put their focus on as we move through the rest of the year?

Rory McNeil (23:55)
Cool.

Russ Elinson (24:16)
I think continuing to diversify customer base, if they can at all. For us, what’s helped us, whether the ups and downs of the economy is just targeting different groups. So we work with regular homeowners. We’re heavily involved in the Costco window fashions program. We go after small commercial projects where we do work on schools, multifamily housing, like apartment buildings, small commercial tenant improvements.

So we’ve built a relationship with a number of general contractors, both on the commercial side and the custom home residential side. So just trying to build your business and diversify your customer base so it’s not all reliant on the phone ringing from Jane Doe that found you on Google or Facebook. Trade partnerships with interior designers or real estate agents, those are all good sources of leads that

continue to pay dividends for years to come.

Will Hanke (25:08)
Good points. Rory, anything on your radar that you see?

Rory McNeil (25:11)
Yeah, I I was going to ask Russ if he’s doing more email marketing to his existing customer base to try and mine the customers who are already familiar with you.

Russ Elinson (25:21)
The reality is we haven’t yet. That’s an area we’ve not done a very good job at. We are going to be moving more towards that. It’s part of our plan for third and fourth quarter of this year. We’ve done the old style of postcard marketing to our past customer base, and that’s always generated a good return, or at least a decent return. It’s not very expensive, obviously, to market to past customers. But certainly going after a more digital approach is better for a long-term perspective.

Rory McNeil (25:49)
The biggest mistake there is I see retailers just deluging their customers with weekly emails and it’s just too much. Once a month, once a quarter.

Russ Elinson (25:59)
Yeah, I think once a quarter is probably appropriate because those that email me regularly, I just delete them.

Rory McNeil (26:05)
Yeah.

Will Hanke (26:05)
Yeah, there’s something to be said for just the fact that they showed up in your inbox and you saw them again. If you’re just deleting them, they’re still staying top of mind to you, right? Yeah. So we recommend our clients once a month, even if they’re getting a slow open rate, that kind of thing. When that time comes and they’re thinking about it and that email pops up, yeah, I need to call these guys. So anyway, that’s good.

Russ Elinson (26:14)
Mmm. Fair point.

Will Hanke (26:31)
Postcards, the postcard thing, we’ve got a couple clients doing that now. And we’ve got a system where we can actually reverse engineer the visitors to their website and send postcards to just those people. And that works really well because they’ve already kind of raised their hand to engage with your business or maybe they didn’t engage, but they came to your website or clicked on an ad or something for some reason. So hitting them from a different angle.

is a nice little approach a couple days later. Yeah. Yeah. So that works really well. I wanted to, before we finish up, I wanted to talk about industry gatherings. Is there any industry gatherings that are on your radar next quarter or later this year?

Russ Elinson (26:58)
That’s a idea.

Rory McNeil (27:13)
This is a great question because there was a show in Anaheim last year, I think you were a speaker there Will, called the Sunshading Expo, and I begged Russ to attend the show for the first time in a while because it was in his home state and because he would go to all the… You did come, yes. Was it useful?

Russ Elinson (27:27)
I like it!

I thought so, yes.

Rory McNeil (27:33)
Yeah,

yeah. So industry gatherings are always going to be critical. so they just wish people to just go there, support them, look for the new, you can see what the trends are. You know, the the Anaheim show was probably 40 % exterior shading guys. mean, that says something.

Will Hanke (27:49)
Yeah, it was a good show. I’m speaking at the one this year again. That’s in November. ⁓ Yeah, we’ll put a link in the show notes for that as well. I’m speaking there. I’m going to be doing some live podcasting from there too as well. So that should be fun with all the the ambient noise in the background.

Rory McNeil (27:53)
Yeah, Indianapolis.

Yeah, because they’ve set up your area right in the middle of the show, right? So looks like it’ll be more busy rather than off to the side.

Will Hanke (28:12)
That’s right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that’ll be a lot of fun. Any other events?

Rory McNeil (28:16)
Are there any other, there’s no other trade shows you go to, Rasa. I kind of like the building product shows because you learn more about how windows are changing. Like in Europe, we see a lot of tilt and turn windows. And in this country, you don’t see them so much in it, except in very specific markets. And in Europe, the manufacturers over there have developed special, usually cellular or pleated or roller shade systems that snap into the inside of the sill.

So as the window tilts forward, the shade is under tension, it stays with the window. Or if it tilts into the room, been the shade is under tension, bracketed around a frame. And that’s kind of a cool feature that I think will grow as windows are used better for ventilation and buildings, for smart buildings certainly, lead buildings.

Will Hanke (29:02)
Interesting. Do you think the Sun Shading Expo is good for exterior as well? I know it’s tied to the ATA show as well. So I know they have a lot of exterior vendors there.

Rory McNeil (29:09)
Yeah.

They have exterior vendors and so does the Sun Shading Expo side. So between the two, there’s quite a bit. I I think that’s one of the reasons why Sun Shading partnered with the Advanced Textiles Expo. So those were all exterior fabric companies and been it was logical that they became exterior shading companies. so when Russ was there in Anaheim, he probably saw on that side, a lot of guys who made stainless steel hardware that could be good for some solutions on exterior wire guide systems.

Will Hanke (29:17)
Right.

Rory McNeil (29:41)
Where are you gonna see that, you know?

Will Hanke (29:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for mentioning that too, Rory. We’ll put a link down below. think I’m going to end up having some free tickets to give away to that as well. And it’s close to me. Indianapolis isn’t that far of a drive from St. Louis. So I get off cheap this time. No flights or anything. So that’s always nice, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Russ Elinson (29:43)
Yeah, it was a great experience going there.

Rory McNeil (30:00)
Yeah, okay. Always good.

Will Hanke (30:05)
For dealers that are listening, Russ, I’m really interested in how you guys approached things like networking for some of your designers, some of the local lead generation. How are they doing it now and how has that changed over the years?

Russ Elinson (30:20)
interesting. I mean, I think we’ve tried different things over the years. Fortunately, our business has been around for several decades. a lot of people find us just organically. We’ve done networking events in our showrooms to host architects before and had different vendors come in and present one after the other to get AIA credit for those architects. That’s been helpful. Let’s see.

Calling actually general contractors, just picking up the telephone the old fashioned way and asking if we could get onto their bidders lists for commercial projects and have a blueprint sent to us that we read and do commercial bidding off of. That’s been very helpful as well. We have a designer that’s joined AIA and participates in those type of networking functions and generated some leads from there.

And been also in our Phoenix based market, we actually do a TV show that’s tied to home improvement in Phoenix called Sonoran Living. And that’s been very effective too.

Will Hanke (31:17)
wow.

Wow, are you the star on that show?

Russ Elinson (31:24)
I am not, because I’m based out of our California location, but we have a few different design consultants that rotate some of their more interesting projects that get filmed for that show.

Rory McNeil (31:34)
Have you ever seen those, Will? Because I normally put them on Window Shading Pro Newsletter because they’re great and I’m just trying to encourage other retailers around the country to copy that style because it’s so useful, I think. It’s very smart.

Will Hanke (31:34)
brilliant.

Yeah, those are great.

Yeah.

Video.

Russ Elinson (31:48)
But I am headed to Phoenix

tomorrow and we’ll be on camera Tuesday. We’re doing a shoot in our showroom.

Will Hanke (31:52)
There you go. Nice,

nice. Video is huge for this industry. I think it’s a missed opportunity for a lot of dealers.

Rory McNeil (32:01)
I did

have a question for you, Russ, about construction companies talking about networking with construction companies to be able to get in on bids or projects that might be, you know, a couple of hundred cut down shades or stock horizontal. I find that when I’m looking at quotes around the country for those kinds of projects, that there’s about a point of maybe about twenty thousand dollars in value to the construction company that most other national

companies who are going after contracts find it too small to waste their time on getting installers into that marketplace. Do you find that there is kind of a sweet spot in terms of the size, the quantity of windows that you don’t get competition from national companies?

Russ Elinson (32:43)
Sure, I think that our strong, our area of success in commercial bidding as a window covering dealer is going after small to medium sized commercial projects. I would say generally we don’t bid projects that are above 300 windows. Sometimes the commercial projects are 25, sometimes they’re 75. Large apartment complexes and also it depends.

upon the geography, right, where you’re at. If you’re in a major metropolitan city, there might be several commercial window covering companies that that’s all they do. And perhaps that’s not the right customer for a residential window covering dealer. If you’re in a little bit more rural area or outside of a big city, those big commercial window covering dealers may not find it worth their time to travel up for a three or four or five hundred blind project. So I think it depends on your market.

We found our sweet spot in a part of our area and it’s that small to medium sized job that’s generally not exceeding 300 windows, but we have certainly tackled projects that are larger than that. It depends on the relationship you’ve built with that specific general contractor. From my perspective, I think it’s better for individual window covering dealers to build relationships with small regional, excuse me, small regional,

general contractors as opposed to large national general contractors, which there’s not much margin in it at that point for any of us.

Rory McNeil (34:09)
Yeah, that makes sense. That’s a cool sweet spot,

Will Hanke (34:11)
Yeah,

really nice. So before we finish up, I just wanted to ask you guys one last thing. There might be a lot of business owners or people that are new to the industry listening to the podcast today. If you could give them advice, what would that be? Let’s start with Rory.

Rory McNeil (34:28)
Well, we used to be a preferred vendor to a budget blind group. And all the time we would see new franchisees who came from middle management, upper management in corporate jobs. And the most inspiring thing about these new people coming into the window covering business after just having spent $80,000 to buy a franchise is that they were sales machines. It was all about sales and tracking leads and tracking quotes and

Many of us who sort of grown up in the industry just, you know, do the work and expect all that comes behind, you know, everything just flows. That’s all changed in the last 10, 15 years where you can’t afford to not mine your own customer database and you can’t afford to stop doing marketing. I meet so many people who’ve been in the industry a lifetime that they just assume they’re getting word of mouth. Well, you know, your customers are dying, you know, there’s more people you’ve got to find.

Will Hanke (35:21)
Thank you, Russ. What about you?

Russ Elinson (35:21)
I’m

Rory McNeil (35:22)
That’s

Russ Elinson (35:22)
sure I think.

Rory McNeil (35:23)
an optimistic note, isn’t it?

Russ Elinson (35:26)
The advice that I would give takes us right back to a conversation we had a few minutes ago, which is investing in technology, investing in a laser measure that Rory mentioned, and investing in quoting software so you can quote those projects in the home. Don’t try to do it by hand. You’ll drive yourself crazy. You’ll fall asleep on your price books at night. And you’re going to serve your customers and yourself better by investing in quoting software.

Will Hanke (35:50)
Awesome,

Rory McNeil (35:50)
On that note,

there’s something like four or five software companies exhibiting in the sun shading experts. So they’re from all over the world.

Will Hanke (35:57)
Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for your insight today. Incredible conversation. Before we wrap up, Rory, I just wanted you to give us the one minute elevator pitch about the Windows Shading Pro newsletter.

Rory McNeil (36:09)
Oh,

I can maybe do 30 seconds. So I created Windows Shading Pro as a newsletter, a free newsletter for the industry in maybe 94, 95, long time ago. And there’s about a little over 3000 window covering professionals subscribed to it. And I just write articles that I think are or I find articles from all over the world and been editorialize them as to how I think they relate to the window covering business.

Will Hanke (36:12)
Okay.

Awesome. We will put a link in the show notes for your to sign up for your newsletter as well. Appreciate you doing that, by the way. That’s great. So thank you guys for being on today. I definitely appreciate your time. I know that you’re both very busy. Thank you also for listening to the podcast today. If you got one idea or a useful strategy out of this conversation, please do us a favor and send it to a friend in the trade. And don’t forget to follow us on YouTube, Facebook, all the different socials.

And thank you so much for listening and we will catch you on the next episode. Rory and Russ, thank you guys. I really appreciate it.

Russ Elinson (37:12)
Thank

Rory McNeil (37:12)
Thanks for your

Russ Elinson (37:12)
you.

Rory McNeil (37:12)
time. Nice chatting.