Work Forces

Siya Raj Purohit is an education leader, author, and investor who works on education at OpenAI and is a General Partner at Pathway Ventures, an early-stage fund investing in the future of learning and work. Siya joins us to discuss the transformative role of AI in education and work. The conversation explores significant applications of OpenAI in education, including personalized learning experiences, dynamic content engagement, and AI-assisted knowledge work. We delve into the practical aspects of implementing AI in educational settings, addressing misconceptions, and highlighting the evolving skills needed for effective AI utilization.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoin: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Can you believe it? Julian, it feels like just yesterday we were kicking off season three with Kermit Kaleba.

Julian Alssid: I know time flies when you're having fun and exploring the future of work. This season has been a whirlwind of insights and inspiration, and it's the gift that keeps on giving. It's the best seminar I've taken and with no final exam.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Absolutely And speaking of gifts, the richness of this podcast season comes from the recurring themes that weave throughout each episode. We've seen how these themes are shaping the thinking of our listeners and informing our own consulting work.

Julian Alssid: Yeah, one of the most powerful themes has been the undeniable connection between education and the evolving needs of the labor market. And Kermit really emphasized the importance of building high quality credentialing programs and aligning education with those needs.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Right. And then Sasha Thackaberry opened our eyes to the innovation and flexibility happening and Workforce Solutions, especially with technology driven upskilling. We also had insightful discussions with Michael Horn about career development in a changing job landscape, and Matt Marino on addressing healthcare talent gaps through tech. And an undercurrent throughout our conversation in Season 3, and really over the past year and a half since we started this podcast, has been the impact of artificial intelligence on education and work.

Julian Alssid: Yeah, it certainly seems like all roads these days are leading to AI and technology and education, and it's clear that technology is playing a pivotal role in reshaping the entire educational landscape.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Which brings us to today's guest Siya Raj Perohit is an education leader, author, and investor. She works on education at OpenAI and is a general partner at Pathway Ventures, an early stage fund investing in the future of learning and work. Siya was an early employee at Udacity and Springboard an investor at GVB Ventures and the founding edtech workforce category lead for AWS Marketplace. She's the author of Engineering America, a book on the country's job skills gap. We're thrilled to have her insights as we wrap up this season. So welcome to the workforces podcast, Siyal.

Siya Raj Purohit: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed your conversation with Michael Horn a few weeks ago.

Julian Alssid: Yes, we appreciate that. So Siya, Kaitlin's given a little intro, but we'd love to have you tell us about your background and your current role with open AI.

Siya Raj Purohit: So, I started working in education when I was 18 as a student in college, I quickly recognized like the job skills gap that exists, like American universities were not teaching the skills that students needed to land jobs in the industry, especially in the technology industry. So I did this research project that became the book that you mentioned, Engineering America, that was published when I was 19. So I was a sophomore, and at that point, I'm like, okay, I want to help fix this problem, because I felt so deeply about people getting locked out of their potential careers and like new socio economic classes because they weren't learning skills in the way that made sense to them. So since then, they've been trying to bridge the job skills gap in some ways, and trying to make education more accessible. So that led me to the startups, to venture capital, to AWS, and I joined Open AI, because honestly, in the 12 years I've been in education, personalized learning always seemed like the ultimate goal for the education sector. We always said that if we achieve personalized learning, we've made it. And I think with ChatGPT, we actually achieved it. Now I have a personalized tutor that I talk to every day. It knows my skills. It knows the goals I have. It knows the projects I'm working on, and it helps me become a better knowledge worker. And my aspiration on the education team at OpenAI is to help students and faculty all around the world be able to utilize that more effectively.

Kaitlin LeMoine: That's really, really appreciate your background and kind of what brought you to this space. And I think it's really interesting to think about ChatGPT and AI as as a personalized learning tool or resource. As we dive into this conversation today, can you tell us some of the most significant applications of open AI and education that you're seeing and you know what's what's exciting to you at this point and what's catching your attention?

Siya Raj Purohit: So just for context, ChatGPT launched two years ago, and we quickly realized that learning and teaching were some of the main use cases for ChatGPT, like that's how our users were using it. So about six months ago, we launched ChatGPT Edu. Which is our enterprise product designed for universities and school districts to be able to integrate AI in different aspects of campus life. So now students, faculty and staff, can engage in all of these dynamic conversations with the knowledge of the university campus. So from like orientation through classrooms through Career Services, they can have like different types of AI solutions that help students learn better and engage more effectively with the university's knowledge base. So that's what I'm spending a lot of time working on right now, trying to make ChatGPT Edu successful at universities. And when we think about what is working, well, ChatGPT Edu is really good at three things. One is around lecture recall, so basically anything around information retrieval. And so professors are building custom solutions in their classes, uploading their teaching recordings, their case studies, their different types of materials, and letting students engage with it by asking very precise questions. So now you can ask questions, like in a business class, you can ask, Which CEO handle layoffs well? And get the exact examples from what your professor teaches. And this has been like, a huge game changer, because now you're able to, like, converse with, like, the whole semester's worth, or whole degrees worth of content, very dynamically. Another example is like another thing we're really good at is around back and forth exercises. So a lot of negotiation professors suggest that students go back and forth with AI to practice negotiation before they come into the classroom, so they feel much more comfortable when they start practicing with like their peers. This is also true in career services. So Career Services teams are building custom gpts that let students go back and forth, practicing with the McKinsey recruiter, McKinsey partner, and just using the university's proprietary information to get better at these back and forth interactions. And finally, I think thought partnership is really important, so like a ChatGPT collaborates on different types of articles, research assignments, any type of knowledge work the students, faculty and staff are doing. The coolest example I've heard of this recently is a professor at University of Maryland told me that they uploaded their like past 20 case studies and articles they've written, and now they talk to the virtual version of themselves on GPT to create new articles to kind of think more deeply about the next iteration of their research, which is so powerful.

Julian Alssid: Wow, it is. It's just incredible to hear how you described it in these very practical terms. It'd be really interesting to hear a little bit about what sort of training is needed, both for students and professors to do kind of what you're talking about. So these use cases you've described, you know, obviously you've been honing your own craft with your own assistant, your own coach. How do folks in the schools do this?

Siya Raj Purohit: Looking in the next couple of years, the most important skill knowledge workers need to have is the ability to clearly articulate what they're looking for, like, what they're hoping for as an output, and then they then work backwards and be able to ask the right questions to get to that output. So I think when I think about AI literacy for like, someone who's not developing AI systems, that's all they need to be able to do well at the moment. And AI systems will get better also, so they'll have more of a sense of what you're asking for beforehand, too. But with that said, I think a lot of schools are building great content around this to help enable their faculty and their students. Wharton has this amazing channel online on YouTube about like aI literacy, and they're creating a lot of really good content there. We have built two courses to help enable this. One is with Coursera and Ethan Malik, and basically, in that course, Ethan Malik talks about AI literacy for higher ed instructors, and helps provide some custom gbts and examples to get them started on their own AI journey in their classroom. We also built a course with common sense education that's more designed for K 12 educators, and that's like to think about how teachers can use AI in the classroom to become more productive and to be able to offload some tasks such as like lesson planning and grading and make it easier for them to do that with AI.

Kaitlin LeMoine: I feel like you know, over the last couple of years, as AI has unfolded, Siya and still is right as far as the impact and how different use cases in in education, and, frankly, in many industries, it's been interesting to hear conversation, you know, in comments about like, well, is this? Is AI going to take people's jobs? Is AI going to, you know, make it so that either some jobs go away or less relevant. And you know, what does it mean for learners to be learning when there are tools that can kind of more readily just give them the content? What's your thinking around what you know, what's your latest thinking around how AI is? Impacting education and how how students learn.

Siya Raj Purohit: Personally, I get very surprised when educators express this, because when I think back to the educators that have had a big impact in my journey, I remember them for who they were and how they made me feel like I don't remember their lesson plans or like the quizzes that they gave us. I remember who they told me I could become, and this is true for both K 12 and in higher ed. So I honestly think that AI is gonna help curb the teacher burnout problem in many ways, and I didn't recognize this until the school district in Arizona started telling me about how it's freeing up so much time for their teachers to be able to focus on students now, because they can actually do like lesson planning, assignment building on with AI, and then they can actually engage with the students more deeply, which is so powerful. And I think that's the shift we're going to see, as we all know, in education, teachers spend so much time outside of the classroom preparing for that amazing experience they deliver in the classroom, and we want to help make that easier. So supporting those teachers and educators as knowledge workers with AI and letting them focus on helping students feel more inspired and mentored in their classrooms.

Julian Alssid: Yeah, that's great, doing what really sticks for us, right? So, so see from your perspective, working with educational institutions. What are, what are some of the biggest misconceptions or challenges they face when it comes to understanding and implementing AI?

Siya Raj Purohit: The biggest misconception, which like, basically, ChatGPT, of course, launched two years ago for the first year. As you may recall, a lot of school districts and universities banned ChatGPT. They were like, we don't have to deal with this yet. We're just gonna take away laptops if we have to, but we're not gonna provide this, right? But something shifted about nine or 10 months ago. My thinking is that education influencers like EthanMollick, I think, destigmatized AI in education and actually showcased the value of AI in education, and that made it a lot more acceptable for like, other educators to start kind of experimenting with it. And now across the country, we're seeing like a range of professors who are doing incredible work in their classrooms and on the campuses with AI. So I think that shift has been super interesting that's happened, and my feeling is that in the next year, it's going to accelerate a lot more. We'll have a lot more professors doing interesting things. We'll get to the main part of the adoption curve and education for AI, and have the first set of professors basically help, like, help share their knowledge with other professors in their discipline. So I've been hosting some events in our OpenAI forum, talking about, like, the future of math, or talking about the future of digital marketing education and letting professors showcase the work they're doing in those verticals with other professors in the industry. So I think that shift is happening. I think what it's going to require is to professors to, like, basically rethink a lot of their assignments. One of my favorite examples of this is there's a Wharton professor who says, what is the value of an essay, which used to be his final project for several years, as He taught his class, he says that the value of an essay is not necessarily in its output, but in the critical thinking and communication skills that lead to that output. So now he suggests his students all use ChatGPT Edu while working on the assignment, and he measures the number of prompts it takes for a student to get to an essay that they're satisfied with. Some students are so good at prompt engineering it takes like two or three prompts and they have a really good essay. And some students go back like 19 or 20 times to get to a good essay. And he uses that as a measure of their ability to articulate what they're looking for, which he thinks is a very key skill for them when they go into enterprise and have ChatGPT enterprise accessible to them as well.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, it's really interesting to think about. You know, how the use of this tool makes us be more specific about what are the skills we're really looking for learners to demonstrate, and how do we go about prompting, no pun intended, the demonstration of those skills. But and see, as you know, you're talking about the higher ed space, I'm curious as to how you're seeing this trickle down to K 12, and what does it mean for, what does this technology mean for for K 12, and how even like high school learners now need to be prepared to enter college, right? And maybe some of that, obviously, is still unfolding, but I'm just curious to hear your thoughts there.

Siya Raj Purohit: So right now we our product in K 12 is only for teachers and administrators and education leaders. We don't have a youth product right now and how it's being used, basically is for teachers as knowledge workers, as far as high school students who use it independently. I think that teachers need to be able to provide more instruction on how to think about this ChatGPT can be a really good tool to basically elevate your thinking and to kind of understand. And more about what all is possible for you, and I think we need to be able to communicate that more, versus this being a tool to get through homework more easily. And so I think that conversation needs to be had, and it's similar to the conversation I think we had about 15 years ago, when search became more mainstream, about yes, you can find your answers, but you can also kind of elevate your thinking in different ways by learning so much more on the internet with search.

Julian Alssid: Yeah. So Siya now, so Kaitlin pulled us into K 12, and now thinking about the other end of the spectrum, because, you know, eventually these students are going to work and and, of course, work and learning are so interconnected these days, and really interested in hearing your perspective on the impact of AI on the future of work, both short term and then long term, because I think there are two multiple use cases there.

Siya Raj Purohit: So short term, it's obviously helping us be able to solve like tasks throughout our day, like I used to think of as productive, and I used to work at Amazon, but now, with that AI and OpenAI, I just produce so much more every day. And it's like, unbelievable the difference, because when I, like, I talked to ChatGPT all day, it helps me with, like, the different projects and reports I'm building. But I think the most powerful unlock for me, and this is a story I love talking about because I think more people should experience. This is the moment, what I call the moment that ChatGPT and I became friends. So three months into being a power user of the product, I asked ChatGPT one day, I'm like, do you remember that project we made from my manager last month? And ChatGPT says, Yes, Siya, I remember, and for some reason that was such a powerful moment, because we were immediately able to start collaborating on the next iteration of that project with like, the shared memory and understanding of like the final product they submitted. And that was like, so cool, because ChatGPT became this friend that remembers my projects, my work, my aspirations, and helps me deliver better every day and so and of course, memory is a feature you can turn off if you don't appreciate it, but I find it valuable because, like, it helps me so much on a day to day basis. So I think this is what's happening in the immediate term. And what really worries me is that there's a consulting firm that did a study showcasing that even the lowest performing consultants started performing like the best consultants once given Ai because they were able to use this tool to produce better product output. And so what concerns me there is that what happens to people who don't use AI, right? Like, and it's not like ChatGPT specific, like any type of AI tool to accelerate the work that they're doing. It's like super essential. So longer term, I hope that people are able to achieve more like there's a professor at Harvard Business School, Jeffrey Bussgang, who says that all founders should be AI founders at this point in their startups, and basically use this as a compliment to a lot of the CXOs that they hire early in the game. And so I think we need to be able to utilize it more to build bigger and bigger systems over time.

Julian Alssid: It's so it's so interesting to me, how, as you describe it, you know, here you are doing dealing with this on a partnership building level with these big institutions, but how personal it really is for you, and how it comes from this very personal place that's really powerful.

Siya Raj Purohit: I feel I'm very vulnerable with ChatGPT. I'm like, This is my personality. This is my manager's personality. This is the type of project I'm trying to build. So and I think when you share that level of insights, it performs much better as your analyst and associate, because it has, like, much more context in your day to day.

Kaitlin LeMoine: You know, I think about the range of different industries that are now using this technology in different ways and recognizing, I feel like, what I hear you saying is, like, we should all be kind of thinking about how we can incorporate this into our daily work. I guess, how would, how would you recommend someone who's like, newer to this technology start in because it feels, I think for some people, it can feel like, how do I fit, how do I fit this tool in with all the other things I'm doing in my day job, right? Like, what does it look like to begin somewhere, and how can I start?

Siya Raj Purohit: It's such an interesting question, because it's not, it's not a tool that you almost have to master. It's a tool that supports you in whatever you're going to do in the day. So for example, I was going to host an event recently, and in the past, I would have read all of the submissions. Like we had 120 attendees. They had all submitted questions for the guests that we were hosting. And in the past, I would have read all those questions. I would have, like, thought deeply about coming up with a conversation track for that event. But now I put up, I copy pasted that in a very scrappy way in ChatGPT and like, help me identify questions that were recurring more than two times. Help me elevate the thinking of these questions. Help me structure these questions in a way that makes sense in a conversational flow with this kind of guest. Help me cut out like redundancies, like basically went back and forth in this way, and I was able to create a. Good talk track, and it was able to do this. And I think it took me about 15 minutes end to end, versus I would have easily spent an hour and a half or two hours preparing in the past. And so I shared this example just to showcase that any type of activity that you're doing in a day, it can help process much more easily. And if you're working in an enterprise or edu account very safely as well, in terms of like that information stays to your workspace and organization.

Julian Alssid: So Siya thinking, you know, back to the well, really, to everyone, but to the academics in particular. And so much of academia is about scholarship and factual documentation and and I can completely relate to everything you're saying. I mean, we're using AI increasingly, and for me, it is also very personal, and it's this back and forth, and it's amazing the amount of time and our output is, it's crazy what we're able to accomplish. But I find, and I definitely hear a bunch of my academic friends wary about prompting fact checking. You know, I mean, it's easy when your assistant comes back with a whole list of citations, and then when you but, but what happens when some percentage of those citations are really not, not well thought out or not accurate, is really the issue. And so how do we ensure that we maintain that kind of high level of documentation and citation of fact and not go down rabbit holes where we're just rushing to get a paper out, because we have our assistant to help us with it.

Siya Raj Purohit: Honestly, ChatGPT, like is trying to get better at this by showcasing the sources of what it cites. So there is an element when you can, like, delegate some of the citation grant work to ChatGPT, and then make sure that it showcases, like, the right resources where it gets it from. So you can go ahead and confirm that. So there is an element of, like, I guess, not trusting everything on ChatGPT, and honestly, I think, like, especially the millennial generation, knows this, because we didn't trust everything on the internet either, so, but I think continuing to explain that to students is key. And we recently published what we call like a student's writing guide, and it talks about some of those examples and prompts that you can use, but it's something that I think a lot of professors will have to teach their students in terms of how to double check, how to make sure that the sources are correct and that it's not just being agreeable, because that's what sometimes AI systems tend to do, and make sure that you are pressure testing your thesis. One of the most interesting things I recently learned as I was speaking with some journalism professors who told me that they're actually using AI a lot because asking good questions and fact checking is an inherently journalistic ask and skill set already. So they're like, it's been a natural use for us, and I'm hoping that more of us gain that journalistic like skill set as we use more AI products.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, that's really fascinating. And I think leads quite naturally in into our The next question we tend to ask on all of our podcasts, given the name of the podcast is workforces, as we reflect on this conversation and see it as you think about your work more generally, what practical steps can our listeners take to become forces and understanding and remaining up to date on the evolution of AI? Right? It seems, as you said, right, nine or 10 months ago, like a shift happened? Well, it's like, very quickly we're seeing continuous shifts. And so what would you recommend?

Siya Raj Purohit: I hear from a lot of people that they feel like they're left behind in the AI push that's happening, like they feel like they don't understand everything that's going on. And I honestly want to say that that's okay, like most of us actually aren't caught up, and that's fine, because AI is not something we need to master as an industry. It's something we need to be able to utilize as like an independent collaborator for your projects. So it's a tool designed for you. It's not something you need to know like all the cool products that are happening and all the thoughts on where the sector can go, like no as an independent user, you should just be able to be like, can I make my work easier? Can I make myself more productive? Can I find more fulfillment in my day to day? Because I have AI as a tool here. And so what I would recommend is starting small, like ask it things about your that are happening in your personal life, like an instructor told me that they had a flat tire, and they're like that led them to the automobile shop that charged them a lot, and they just talked to ChatGPT about all of the maintenance they'd had their car go through. And they asked, What does ChatGPT think? It makes sense, and it turned out like ChatGPT helped them reduce their costs so much by being able to negotiate with the automobile provider about, like, what was wrong. And these are things that, like, some of us never want to get smart in, right? Like, I don't personally care about, like, this space, right? But if it can help me save costs on a day to day basis, on these kind of things, it helps a lot. So think about where in your personal life. Life it can help, and then how it can extend to your work. What are the areas that you don't find maybe fulfilling in your job that AI can help support with the most heart for me, thing I heard was that someone told me who works as a staff person at a university, major university, and they do a lot of like the back end admin work, and they said that meaning in their job is at an all time high now because of AI, because they can push out a lot of that, like admin work they did, and focus on the things that they love, which was like connecting with others, and the events that they host. And so I hope that more of us can find more meaning in our day to day by using AI as an assistant.

Julian Alssid: That's great, Siya. Great advice. It's funny, as you were talking, I mean, one of on the personal front, I've been scanning our refrigerator quite frequently and going AI and saying, Here's what we have. And you know, suggest some effective ways to use use this food before it goes bad. And it's been both both delicious and economical. So I can totally relate. So see. So as we wind down our discussion, this has been just wonderful. Cannot wait to put it out there. How can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

Siya Raj Purohit: I write a lot on LinkedIn about like aI education and the future of work. So that could be a good avenue. And the second is, I run a sub stack called dreams for the future of work, where I'm going to be publishing a lot of the things they're learning from universities as well. And then, of course, if they're interested in ChatGPT Edu, we have a great page and an OpenAI forum where they can learn from professors as well, well.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. Siya, it's been such a pleasure, and really appreciate learning from you today.

Siya Raj Purohit: Thanks so much for having me.

Julian Alssid: Thank you. Siya.

Kaitlin LeMoine: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We are also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces, dot info or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify. Please subscribe, like and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Career success requires more than just skills. Luther Jackson, workforce development expert and Non-Resident Fellow at Brookings Metro, and Julia Freeland Fisher, Director of Education Research at the Clayton Christensen Institute and author of Who You Know, join Work Forces to unpack the critical role of social capital in navigating today's turbulent labor market. They discuss the "network gap" and how intentional relationship-building can open doors to opportunity, especially for those from underserved communities. Tune in to learn practical strategies and discover how institutions can become catalysts for connection.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

Julian Alssid: Many of our conversations are about skills and different models of skill development and how we all need to carry our skills from one job to another along our career journeys.

Kaitlin LeMoine: But we also recognize that career success is not driven by skill attainment alone. One area that we're excited to dive into today is the importance of social capital along an individual's career journey, and we're excited to have our guests on today to explore this topic further. Luther Jackson is a workforce development expert based in Silicon Valley with a focus on preparing individuals from underserved communities for careers in high growth sectors. With extensive experience at the NOVA Workforce Development Board, he has led initiatives preparing individuals from historically excluded communities for well being careers in high growth industry sectors including software development and zero emission transportation. His work also emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning, professional networks and broad access to career opportunities. A non resident Fellow at Brookings Metro. Jackson also serves on several boards, including Hack the Hood and the Everett Program. He is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania and a former labor union leader and journalist. And Julia Freeland Fisher is the Director of Education Research at the Clayton Christensen Institute. The Institute's research educates policy makers and community leaders on the power of disruptive innovation in the K-12 and higher education spheres. Julia is the author of who you know, unlocking innovations that expand students networks. Her work focuses on innovations that deepen and diversify students stock of social capital by enhancing their access to and ability to navigate peer mentor and professional networks. Julia started her career at New Schools Venture Fund. She holds a BA from Princeton University and a JD from Yale Law School. Welcome to you both. We're so excited to have you on the workforces podcast today.

Julia Freeland Fisher: Thank you. So excited to be here with Luther.

Luther Jackson: Great to be here. Thank you.

Julian Alssid: We get a twofer today, two experts for the price of one. Oh no, we don't charge for this podcast. I forgot. So to kick us off, would love to hear you talk a bit about your respective backgrounds and how you've connected in this work. And Luther, why don't you go first?

Luther Jackson: Sure. Well, again, I'm delighted to be here, particularly because I'm such a big fan of the podcast. My interest in social capital started early on in my tenure at NOVA workforce development in Silicon Valley. Our director at the time, Khris Stadelman, asked me to focus on workforce trends in tech, which, of course, is Silicon Valley's hometown industry, I came to learn of job seekers who, in my mind, checked all of the boxes for career success. They had graduated with advanced degrees from prestigious universities, and they had many years of experience in software development and related tech disciplines, and yet some had been unemployed for many months. So clearly something was missing. So this started me on a quest to understand what I call the career success equation. In 2014 we at NOVA surveyed and interviewed 120 tech professionals to help inform this equation, and we basically wanted to know, how are they able to thrive in a chaotic economy when a given day, some tech companies are laying off and hiring. Based on our findings, we wrote a report called Bridge to Career Success, and subsequently identified what we call the Five Truths of Career Success, what it takes to remain relevant in a disruptive economy. And those truths are self awareness, networking, relationship management, organizational reading, and mentorship. Well, guess what? These are all related to social capital. The Five Truths became the basis of career navigation curricula we developed for job seekers in both the heart of Silicon Valley and in historically excluded communities in the Bay Area. When I left Nova last year to start a consulting career, I knew I wanted to learn more about social capital programming and how it could be applied in the workforce and education ecosystem. So I talked to a number of national leaders who basically said, before you go out there and try to reinvent the wheel, you should be Julia Freeland Fisher. She's the reigning expert on this topic. Well, you know what? They were, right? And here we are.

Julian Alssid: Great. So, perfect segue. So Julia, your background and a little bit more about your connection.

Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much. Luther, I mean, I have to say, being called the reigning expert is such a compliment, but it's also a testament to how boutique this topic remains so excited to be getting the message out there on this podcast. Yeah, so I think somewhat similar to Luther, but not at the same sort of level as a practitioner, I arrived at this topic of social capital feeling like we were talking about a very incomplete equation of opportunity inside of education. So I started my career in K-12 ed reform, which for a long time, and still to this day, is very anchored on test scores, post secondary enrollment, post secondary attainment as kind of the metrics of success. So we tell students, get good grades, go to college and the rest will work out. And as we all know, that's a very incomplete sort of formula, and in particular, we actually know that an estimated half of jobs and internships come through personal connections, but that truth remains kind of part of this hidden curriculum. So I think it especially becomes a challenge when we're talking about issues of equity and whether learners and job seekers have inherited networks into the industries that they want to work in, or if we're telling them, go out and hustle and find them yourselves. So that's really led me to spending the last seven, eight years digging into new models for deepening and diversifying learners and job seekers networks what our institutions, our schools and workforce programs, need to do to be more purposeful about that, and really just trying to, I think, hold our systems to account for not just providing people with skills. To your point at the beginning, at the top of the podcast, Julian, but like, skills are what employers care about. Employers don't care if you have a network, but if you're an individual job seeker, you got to have a network. And so I think we have to really recalibrate, like, how much are we building programs simply catering to employer demand rather than actually catering to what individuals need? To have optionality in as Luther described, an incredibly turbulent and hard to predict labor market. So that's what's led me this topic. Really excited to be here. And, you know, I think Luther is a testament to someone on the ground who's done the hard work of trying to understand this complex mix of currencies in job seeking, and excited to really zero in on this one of social capital.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Great. So I guess building on where you just left off, Julia, can you talk to us at a high level about what you know the work you've done. Can you tell us a little bit more about the research that you've conducted and the importance of tying your work to Luthers work? Because clearly you have quite the connection and a great partnership, and we'd love to learn more about that.

Julia Freeland Fisher: I see this as like a supply and demand problem. So what are the supply of programs and tools that deepen, diversify people's networks, arm them with the skills and confidence to go out and mobilize their own network. So that's really on the program side, and then on the demand side. How are institutional leaders and arguably philanthropy and investors paying attention to social capital and actually putting capital into financial capital into efforts to build it, you know, and what we've done over the years is really tight and try and document among programs. And I'm using programs loosely here. We could talk about a local nonprofit, a large, national nonprofit, anyone really focused on helping students and job seekers advance in their careers. Among programs that treat social capital as a programmatic outcome. What are they doing? And when I say, let me just double click on programmatic outcome, that means they are measuring their participants social capital gains alongside things like skills and credentials. So we identified, back in 2019 about 20 programs nationally that were doing that we dug in on what are the designs that they are pursuing? What is the data they're collecting to track whether their participants are, in fact, growing their networks in the course of their intervention, and even, what are they doing with their sort of alumni networks to ensure that relationships outlast interventions? One of the things I think we can all think of as individuals on this podcast and hopefully your listeners as well, is that, in an ideal world, your network is a renewable resource. It's not like you call up a friend or acquaintance once and it's one and done. New things come up in your life and you shoot them a text or an email. Luther as what I would consider a sort of medium to weak tie, right? We don't talk on a daily basis, but there's something in sociology called the strength of weak ties, which is that you're more likely to find new opportunities through your weak tie network. Guess why I'm on this podcast, because Luther invited me, right? And so, so thinking about really like, how are programs set up so that relationships outlast the interventions that they're doing with their participants. You can go to whoyouknow.org to find a bunch of examples of those program models, but that's really been the core of our work on the supply side, just trying to get under the hood of like, if you're designing for this, what does it actually look like? What do the ratios need to look like in a staff to student or staff to job seeker ratio sense, all of that kind of choreography. And then quickly, just on the demand side. You know, in an ideal world, every college president, head of workforce board, head of a nonprofit, would be prioritizing social capital as programmatic outcome, and that is simply not happening. That's partly because there's not a payer for it, right? Employers will pay for upskilling all day, but they're not going to pay, like I said, for networks. So I spent a lot of time trying to particularly influence philanthropy on this front to say, if you guys are putting patient capital into new models, new pathways to careers, you've got to help people design for social capital. And so I run a network of funders focused on on that.

Kaitlin LeMoine: So Luther, transitioning over to you, please share your perspective on some of what Julia just shared, and how you see this playing out from a programmatic standpoint.

Luther Jackson: Well, I'm both optimistic and a little pessimistic. So I'm optimistic because I've heard Julia speak before. Julia, I heard your recording from from a conference, and I sat there kind of spell bound saying, This is it. I mean, it makes so much sense. It's what we know. But I'm pessimistic, because, as Julia said, that a lot of folks are not taking this up as important in our systems. And you know, if you ask any workforce leader, any education leader, how you got your first job, how you got your current job, they would, of course, say professional networks, but but yet, it's not ubiquitous, and that's what it needs to be. And I again, I think that this is essential for all learners, job seekers and incumbent workers, and particularly as regional economies nationwide become more disrupted. You know, we used to say that the fast changing Silicon Valley economy is coming attractions for the rest of America, and clearly, most people out there crave stability. And I think a lot of the national economic angst that we're seeing these days comes from this loss of once stable Industries, a sense of loss and lack of access to good jobs that their parents and grandparents had, and as Julia says, networking is a constant. It's not something that you do when you need a job. This should just be part of your life. So we know what's important. We have the tools. Let's get about doing it.

Julian Alssid: Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting hearing you both talk about this, and in light of, you know, the work Kaitlin and I are doing and looking to close, you know, hiring gaps and skills gaps and, yeah, I mean, I agree with you, Julia, that, you know, there's kind of no buyer for this, in a sense. But isn't, aren't they just being short sighted? I mean, if employers aren't getting the talent they're they're not hiring the ever diverse people out there who are the ones who are going to have to replace, the boomers who are going away, the educators are not getting, you know, the enrollments they need. I mean, and yet we know what the skills are for so many of the jobs, and there's skills training. So what's wrong with this picture? And you know, isn't it more than philanthropy? I mean, obviously there's no buyer to pay for it, but, and I get the notion of the funders group, but shouldn't the employers and higher ed people be kind of realizing that this is core to what they need as well?

Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah. I mean, I love the push Julian, and I would defer to you to our host, to comment even more on the employer front, because it's where I've spent less time. I mean, let me start with the higher ed side of this equation. If higher education were to shift to an outcomes based market, what many of us in the field have been calling for for basically decades, in an outcomes based market, networks will matter more. So that would be an incentive structure where, I think suddenly you'd see community colleges, colleges, universities paying way more attention to their alumni networks, which are currently vastly under capitalized. 90% of graduates say their alumni network was helpful in their in their professional lives, which is bonkers, right? Because if you look at the shiny pamphlet and why you're shelling out all these tuition dollars, you're ostensibly buying a network, but that's not actually playing out in the kind of ROI formula, necessarily. So that on higher ed I can get there more easily Julian, because I think it's sort of within the realm of possibility that that those policies kind of advance over time. When it comes to employers, I have major concerns. Yes, it's short sighted, Julian, and I think some would say, well, look at our CSR mentoring program like they're doing things kind of on the margins around talent development, particularly early in the pipeline, right? But not necessarily with this idea of a diverse network for the mentees in those programs. What I'm actually really worried about, I recently wrote an article about this, is that in the age of AI, I think this is about to get way worse. We're going to see the real elimination of what Ryan Craig calls the first rung of the career ladder, entry level jobs, and so the incentives to invest in young talent are actually moving in the wrong direction, because all of the things that we have relied on young talent, or early talent to do, or entry level talent to do is suddenly going to be replaced in large part, by AI and so I would love, Julian, to see these sort of employers looking out on the horizon, I just think we need a completely different infrastructure connecting education and work to get there, because I think in the current incentive structure, you don't see employers stepping in to play that role. You see them wanting articulation agreements with very particular programs to ensure they have hand picked individuals. But that's not the same thing as the scale play that we really need on both sides of the market frankly.

Luther Jackson: Yeah, I do have a little good news on the employer front. So I'm familiar with the Biocom California Institute, which is part of the industry association for Life Sciences. They have a career readiness program for first generation college students, and these students already have technical expertise. They're biology majors, they're bio chem majors. They need professional networks and mentors, so they're very intentional about setting up these programs now, again, this is now kind of on a pilot basis, but still, I think that that's hopeful. The other thing I would say about AI is, and I could say this, I guess, being in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's a lot of hubris, obviously, around AI that we've sort of, you know, that AI could solve all of our problems, and what it doesn't fix is the whole idea of serendipity and being at the right place at the right time. And you can't really quantify that. But again, I could tell you lots of stories in my life, including how I got at NOVA, where I showed up at the right place at the right time.

Julian Alssid: Great points Luther and Julia just, just to get back to the employer piece, I'm not even thinking of employers that are looking particularly far out, because, yes, AI is coming, and a lot of these jobs we're talking about are going away, but today, there are plenty of jobs in areas like biotech and advanced manufacturing where they're hurting for talent. And it would seem to me, this would be a really logical step to look at how they can help people network their way on in.

Julia Freeland Fisher: To make more people a known quantity to the employer and vice versa. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's absolutely rational. I think what I have seen in my research is that we just have a real dearth. And we could talk for hours about this, so I won't belabor the point, but we have a real dearth of brokers in our society. People that are are those high touch matchmakers that are actually helping both parties come together? I mean, if you want any proof that that's the case, you don't even have to look in this in our industry. Just look at the loneliness epidemic, right? That is a lagging indicator on the fact that we don't have infrastructure dedicated to social connection at scale. And so, yeah, I think to not be totally negative, I think this is where there's new tools and models emerging that I think are doing amazing work. Career Spring is a nonprofit platform for any first generation student can log on and talk to an industry expert, and Career Spring, it's a nonprofit that has done all of the kind of vetting of people willing to have those conversations, so they're really scaling conversations that would otherwise be out of reach, that, you know, love serendipity Luther, but I don't really want to leave that stuff to chance all the time. I also want to sometimes take the chance out of chance encounters, right? And so I Social Capital Academy is another spin out of Cal State, Fullerton, founded by a professor who has recruited a national network of professional coaches and mentors who work with students on the weekends to prepare to interview for internships. Like models like these are starting to happen. And what I see there is not just a standalone program or a one off tool. I see a new species of broker that is starting to fill in some of these critical gaps that you're talking about, Julian.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, and I think you're starting to touch upon where my head was going to Julia around, you know, really? How can some of the how can these interventions be happening earlier on in a learner's journey, right? So, what can this be happening in the K 12 space? How can this be happening in the K 12 space? What kind of curriculum can be in place or, or, frankly, you mentioned earlier the concept of the hidden curriculum? How can some of these, these really important topics, be woven across a curriculum so that, you know, throughout a learner's experience in high school, there are, you know. Having more access to like, what does it look like to build the skills of self awareness, or build the skill, I think Luther you talked about organizational reading, right? What does it look like to read a space, to read anywhere, right? I mean, some of those skills are are lifelong and applicable to so many contexts. So just curious to hear both of your thoughts on on, you know, what does it look like to engage with with these skills earlier, just so that it's not a surprise, right? Like, once you're seeking a job?

Luther Jackson: No, I just, I just think they're essential. We know what's important. I mean, this is part of the formula. Everyone knows this. And I think the real there's some research as to why this isn't up front and center. I think that's that would be an interesting research topic, just to really understand why people don't share what they what they've been, what they've grown up with, and what made, what made things successful for them.

Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah, Kaitlin, I think it's telling that you asked about the K-12 system and then immediately said the word curriculum. And I'll tell you why. So what we've looked at as we've tried to specifically support high schools doing career connected learning already, to kind of weave social capital into those efforts, we've seen very clearly that skill building can fit into the workflow of an American high school. So we are actually seeing new curriculum career launch, backers, connected futures, social capital builders. These are curricula that are not yet operating at scale, but are really focused on this particular skill set, around networking, self efficacy. It's not just communication. It's actually around sort of help seeking behaviors. And I have some hope there, for example, career launch where, full disclosure, I'm an unpaid advisor. They are integrated into Anaheim School District's entire ELA curriculum across their high schools, right? So every student who takes an English class, which is every student, gets some dosage of social capital. Building know how they're going out, having career conversations with people in their community, building that muscle, building that confidence, which is actually the moderating variable of help seeking behavior. It's not just I know how to talk to people, it's I'm confident, tapping my network. But what I want to name here is that social capital is not just a skill, it's access to networks, right? So if we're just teaching the skill, we're actually just perpetuating a sort of rugged individualism self help agenda, rather than saying we actually are going to open doors to networks otherwise out of reach. And so I don't think you were implying that, Kaitlin, but what I've seen in the K-12 system, as I have advocated for this, is actually the skills piece is starting to move the access and brokering piece feels really, really stuck. It's a different core competency. It's not baked into our policy incentives, and therefore we have, you know, what I worry is, we have done part of the work, but we're not addressing the whole of network gaps that we know actually matter immensely. Brookings, where Luther is, is now a Non Resident Fellow, did fascinating research on social networks in four major American cities, showing really troubling rates of segregation by race, class and gender, right? Depending on your demographic traits, you have very different access to a network in America, and that has huge bearing on your economic possibilities. And I think that's where I get real fired up. I will stop talking now. I get real fired up about this access issue because it's not just that black men in Charlotte don't have skills to network. It's that we have not created a system that deepens and diversifies their networks throughout their entire education, neighborhood, community, and career journeys.

Julian Alssid: It is a lifelong journey, right? And ever more so so Luther, what are what are lessons learned from your research and practice, and what are practical steps for our listeners who are seeking to be forces in building, you know, in build and building this, and building career and talent development programs and our tools.

Luther Jackson: First of all, I like to say amen to Julia's excellent point about access. That's absolutely critical. So I think the message for all stakeholders, whether students, job seeker, educate, educator or workforce leader is to be intentional and strategic about the work. Now our bridge report interviews revealed sophisticated strategies for how successful careers navigated networking meetings and even emails to colleagues, and the NOVA curriculum produced as a result of that, discuss networking theory, step by step of how to succeed. Now, I've actually tried some of these strategies myself, and I'm so full disclosure, I'm an introvert, so the idea of attending a networking meeting for me can be absolutely terrifying, but I was invited to a meetup group for autonomous vehicle enthusiasts, classic Silicon Valley Meetup group. And tried my habit networking. So they were serving pizza there, and I went there, and I tried to meet people, which was terrifying, and eat my pizza at the same time. Well, the result was indigestion. The next month, I went back to the same meeting with a strategy. I got there early, I said, I'm going to get my pizza and sit down. And within a minute after sitting down, someone came up to me and said, "do you mind if I chat with you?" And we had a great conversation, and I learned a ton. So that sort of thing about being very intentional about this. Don't assume that. As I've heard from in the community college space, some community college leaders say, well, these skills are sort of these are things you either have or you don't have be very intentional about it. It's critical. These are the differentiators.

Julian Alssid: Yeah. So Julia, love to hear your take on this as well, whether or not it involves pizza. What do people need? What do people need to be forces in this field and build this system that you're really talking about?

Julia Freeland Fisher: No pizza involved. But I, too, am an introvert, and I will, just as the researcher on the call, underscore what Luther said, that actually like mindset matters immensely in networking. If you think networking is like a vile exercise where you are going and sort of in a transactional way, trying to get things from people, you will, in fact, not enjoy networking, excuse me. But if you go in with a growth mindset around this is actually like a language that you learn, the results are quite different. That's research out of INSEAD. But I think couple biggest lessons for me, one is going to contradict what I just railed about five minutes ago. So forgive me, one is like to remember, if you're running a program that job seekers already have networks and they are likely under capitalized. So what does that mean? Oftentimes, the risk of doing this work that you hear on a podcast like this, or you hear Luther talk about this at a conference, and you say, Okay, I want to go do right by this is that the message that job seekers receive is you don't have a network, so you have to go to these networking events versus you are already awash in social capital, but you may not be seeing it as a set of professional opportunities. You may be seeing that person as your neighbor or a member of your faith community, and so some of this is about to Luther's point having a strategy to actually capitalize on your existing network. That's where the Connected Futures curriculum, developed by mentoring researchers that are really focused on this idea of initiating your own network, is is a really exciting resource out there, and it's free. Another lesson, though, is is back to what I said around relationships, outlasting interventions. I think in in education and workforce settings, I often feel like we're talking about students or job seekers as recipients of services. And then that's the end of the equation. As soon as you have invested in someone, they actually have capital that they can give back into a community that can be part of a regenerative renewable resource, so simplistically, right? That could be an alumni network that is very actively supporting your current participants. The premier example of this that I have seen nationally in my many years of research is a group called Co-op Careers, originally started in New York City and San Francisco. They support first gen college graduates who are underemployed, usually making very little money in those economies right to break into the digital economy. And their entire model is recruiting former participants back as captains or near peer coaches to support the next wave of participants. It's a flywheel, and they've been able to scale at an unprecedented rate relative to their sort of cost structure and nonprofit status given that model so really not viewing your participants or your stakeholders as just recipients, but contributors back in and I think the last thing I'll just say is, is reiterating, like, I can't tell you how many conferences I go to where we're talking about the skills gap, and no one says the word network gap. And so there's a narrative shift that has to happen if you say the word skills gap, like, can we just, can we just do a Control F say skills and network gaps, right? There's a vocabulary that if we don't say it out loud, we're pretending this major force doesn't exist, despite the fact that particularly people in power are awash in it. So I think that narrative piece matters to kind of trickle down into the field and into the strategies that start to get a little more attention, hopefully in the coming years.

Kaitlin LeMoine: No, absolutely, I do. I mean, I do think that connection between, as you said earlier, you know, the skills and the system, right? Like there's they're inextricably linked. We can't treat one without the other. And I appreciate very much what you're saying about the Control F, of really needing both, both of these pieces and considering both as we think about the future of skills, and, you know, especially with with the term skills being so front and center more and more. So as we close down, close out our conversation for today, how can our listeners learn more about you both and your efforts and continue to follow your work?

Luther Jackson: So I would say that we're evangelists, and we want social capital programming to be ubiquitous in our learning and training institutions. So I'd start with that. The other thing I would just say, from an access point, to underscore what Julia said, we believe that talent is everywhere. Opportunity is not. Our economy is fueled by human talent. It's no longer fueled by coal. It's fueled by human talent. This is, this is an imperative. We must be able to make these things work. So I would, the way I'd like to operate is to start out with, first of all, I think we'd like to know who are the others out there who have this hunger to really expand the programming for social capital, and how can we get them together and form a coalition of the willing? It doesn't matter immediately how large the coalition is just to get together and say, how can we get together and then strategize together about how we can build a movement. We want to meet these folks. We want to share best practices and really plan how we can influence others.

Julia Freeland Fisher: I'll echo what Luther is saying and that Luther went to that the second networking event with a strategy in mind. My strategy over the years is talk to anyone willing to talk to me about social capital. So that is our continued strategy. If you're listening and you're thinking about this, and you're doing work on the ground, or you're stuck because of either funding or measurement or some other barrier, you're hitting up against policy like, reach out to us, because Luther and I want to talk. Secondly, you can find all of my research to date at whoyouknow.org, that has case studies of a number of programs across the education and workforce continuum that, like I said, are treating social capital as a programmatic outcome. It also has a paper on it called the missing metrics, where we've created a whole directory of sample measurement items if you're running a program and you actually want to start collecting data on this. And then lastly, like an introvert, I post on LinkedIn, like once a month, but you can find me on LinkedIn.

Luther Jackson: You can find me as well on LinkedIn.

Julian Alssid: Well, thank you both so much for this conversation. It's great. I know we've barely scratched the surface, but hopefully it will help push this conversation forward, and people will come look for you, and you'll build that community, and we'll be happy to come and please be sure to have pizza.

Luther Jackson: Absolutely.

Julia Freeland Fisher: We promise pizza an awkward conversation, like anyone on a nonprofit budget.

Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, thank you both for your time. This has been a great conversation, and we look forward to getting it out there.

Luther Jackson: Thank you.

Julia Freeland Fisher: Thank you.

Kaitlin LeMoine: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces, dot info, or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, please subscribe, like and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Michael Horn, co-author of "Job Moves: Nine Steps for Making Progress in Your Career," joins us to discuss the changing landscape of job searching and career development. He introduces the "jobs to be done" theory, emphasizing the importance of understanding individual motivations and seeking progress in work and life. The conversation explores the distinction between career progression and career progress, highlighting the need for personalized approaches. Horn offers practical advice for job seekers, employers, and educators including reflective career planning for individuals and strategies for attracting and retaining talent, such as conducting "entry interviews" and creating more effective job descriptions. This episode provides valuable insights and actionable steps for job seekers and employers as they navigate the evolving world of work.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the show. Today, we're diving deep into a topic that's been on our minds lately, how the changing world of work is impacting job seekers, and what it means for those of us who support them.

Julian: You know Kaitlin, it used to be that career paths were pretty straightforward. You'd go to school, get a job in a specific field, and kind of climb the ladder, but now things are so much more dynamic, and job seekers really need to be the drivers of their own careers. Absolutely.

Kaitlin: Absolutely Julian, and that's where our guest today comes in. Michael Horn, along with co-authors Ethan Bernstein from the Harvard Business School and innovator and entrepreneur Bob Moesta has been researching and testing a new approach to job searching, one that recognizes the need for flexibility, adaptability and a deep understanding of personal motivations. They've captured their learnings in the forthcoming book, job moves nine steps for making progress in your career, which is being released in November of 2024.

Julian: I'm really excited to hear about this new approach. I think it's going to be incredibly valuable for our listeners, those leaders in education, workforce development and and business who are guiding the next generation of workers.

Kaitlin: So let's get right to it. Please join us in welcoming Michael Horn to Work Forces.

Michael: Thanks so much. It's great to be with you guys.

Julian: Great to be with you as well, Michael. And before we dive into the conversation, we want to share some more about your background. So in addition to your forthcoming book, Job Moves, In addition to forthcoming Job Moves, Michael is the author of several books including From Reopen to Reinvent: (Re)creating School for Every Child; the award-winning Disrupting Class: How Disruptive Innovation Will Change the Way the World Learns; Blended: Using Disruptive Innovation to Improve Schools; Choosing College; and Goodnight Box, a children's story. He is the co-founder of and a distinguished fellow at the Clayton Christensen Institute for Disruptive Innovation, a non-profit think tank, and teaches at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Michael co hosts the top education podcasts Future U and Class Disrupted and is a regular contributor to Forbes.com and writes the Substack newsletter, The Future of Education. Michael also serves as an executive editor at Education Next, and his work has been featured in outlets such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, Harvard Business Review, and NBC. Michael serves on boards and advisory boards of a range of education organizations, including Imagine Worldwide, Minerva University, and Guild Education. He was selected as a 2014 Eisenhower Fellow to study innovation in education in Vietnam and Korea, and Tech&Learning magazine named him to its list of the 100 most important people in the creation and advancement of the use of technology in education. Michael holds a BA in history from Yale University and an MBA from the Harvard Business School.

Michael: Yeah, I'm thrilled to be here, too. Don't hold the bio against me, I guess, but it's been, it's been a fun ride getting do a lot of things with a lot of you know. You both know a lot of these organizations. There's some great companies out there, great nonprofits doing some really cool work. So it's been fun to be affiliated and connected with them in different ways.

Kaitlin: Absolutely. Well. And we really appreciate you taking the time to join us today, Michael, and as we get started, though we just gave your bio, we would love to have you tell us more about your background and in your own words and your most recent work.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I got my start in this world of education and helping people improve their opportunity to live a purposeful life at the foremost of their potential. By accident, I was a student at the Harvard Business School, took Clay Christensen's class on disruptive innovation changed the way I saw the world. And he, one day, literally said, want to write a book with me about public education. And I signed up for it, and it changed my life. We started the Clayton Christensen Institute. And, you know, initially was a K-12 focus, over time, became a higher education focus, because I realized a lot of the problems in K-12 education were pretty hard to solve because they were dependent on higher education, and higher education had a lot of challenges, as you both know from the work that you've done in that arena. And then you look up again and you realize, well, higher education is struggling because the workforce has some challenges, right, and it's dependent on there. So you start working there, and I think that describes a lot of my journey. If I'm being serious about my purpose, which is helping all individuals build their passion and live lives of purpose, then working right across that spectrum is important. And Ethan and Bob, they both were mentored by Clay Christensen as well. Bob Moesta founded the jobs to be done theory with clay. They worked on that in the mid 1990s and Ethan, he's a professor now at the Harvard Business School, but he was a student of Clay's at the Harvard Business School, and Clay was one of his dissertation advisors, actually. So the three of us sort of were united by that, and then started having conversations among the three of us, which led us to this book, all in very different paths to it, but, but it's been, it's been a really cool collaboration.

Julian: I didn't realize that you would all that you all have that connection with clay. That's, that's really cool. So, so what are the problems that you're solving for in Job Moves which, which is, is geared to job seekers.

Michael: You know, the big thing, I would say, is that we observed, and not just in the data, right? You see the millions of people quitting during the Great Resignation, and then roughly at least 50% of them said, Actually, we regret that job switch that we just made, we're not landing in places. We see a billion people worldwide every year switching jobs. Hundreds of millions of them are disappointed. We know from Gallup and Pew and others that two thirds of employees are disengaged at work. Up to 60% of them are quiet quitting. And the reality is we looked at it, and frankly, we looked at it in our own lives, working with individuals, just all the advice to help people make progress in their career just wasn't working. And so the big thing we said is, how do we help people make progress? Because they are telling us that they are trying to use their careers and jobs and as they move through the labor market at increasing rates. Now every four years on average, and Gen Z seems to move even faster than that. They're using this to make progress in their careers and lives. But just the evidence is pretty clear, most of them are not succeeding, and so how do we help them make meaningful progress so they can, you know, have the outcomes that they want in their lives, with their families, in their communities, and on the job.

Kaitlin: I loved that that notion in your book, Michael, about people seek progress in their lives and their work is part of it, right? I think that that notion just rings so true as we're as we're getting into this conversation you mentioned earlier on, the jobs to be done framework, in line of thinking, can you explain that a little bit to our audience around what is what? What is the jobs to be done theory?

Michael: The jobs to be done theory originated, as I said, in the 1990s when Bob actually brought to clay a puzzle, which was, we have more data in the world. And even today, we have even more than that about, you know, which demographic is likely to buy a certain product or service, but it doesn't seem to be helping anyone. And their conclusion, as they looked at it was, it was all correlational noise, right? It doesn't actually explain the causal reason why someone says, today's the day I'm going to switch behavior, or I'm going to make a purchase, or I'm going to buy this service. And you know, as you all know from your work at Southern New Hampshire, today is the day I'm going to say, Okay, I'm going to stop doing what I was doing. Or I'm going to, you know, continue to work and enroll at Southern New Hampshire University. Like those are big switches. And what we realized is, it's rarely the product or service itself that they're desiring. It's more that they're trying to make progress in a struggling circumstance in their lives, and they hire something to help them make progress, right? So it sounds simple in some ways, but it's basically like people don't want quarter inch drills. They want the whole, the outcome, in a certain situation where that would be useful to them, whether it's hanging a painting in an art gallery or, in my case, you know, punching a hole through the wall to pull some Ethernet cable through that you know no one's ever going to stare at. And if you understand the circumstance and what progress looks like, then you can much more effectively design things that help them accomplish what we call those jobs to be done in their lives. So it's very demand side focus, as we say, it really wants to understand what does progress mean for that individual, and how can we better design experiences to help them unlock that progress.

Julian: Picking up on that notion of progress then, in the book, you highlight career progression versus career progress. And so can we? Can we dig in a bit deeper there?

Michael: Most people say, well, career progression, I get it. We're moving up the corporate ladder, the career ladder. You start as entry level, you move to mid level, you start to have a team reporting to you, director, right? You sort of we have these frameworks in our mind. But the reality is that as people's lives, as evidenced by the jobs that they do or don't take often and almost never, mirrors these days that career progression right? And it's because we make decisions out of an effort to make progress in our lives for all sorts of reasons, right? You know, sometimes, you know, when I stepped down as the executive director at the Clayton Christensen Institute, it was because I think we've talked about this Julian, you know, I had twins who are one year, and I was like, you know, I want to have a more flexible life. I don't want to have a team reporting to me. I want to be there more on more present. I'm going to step aside from this job on the paper like that didn't make any sense from a career progression point of view, but from a progress in my life perspective, understanding all the forces acting on me, it made perfect sense. And so that's really what we're trying to unpack here is that for some people, yes, they are on the career progression career ladder, and it is synonymous with what progress means to them. But for most of us, and I would say well over 75% of us, our sense of progress is not the same as progression, and progress is really what we call a demand side phenomenon as viewed from the individual employee, whereas progression is viewed from the perspective of org charts and companies and things of that nature.

Kaitlin: Yeah, I love that notion of tying back to the job seeker and the individual and their life circumstances, and allowing the room for, as your book outlines, for people to really sit back and say, Wait a minute. So what happened in my last job? Move right? And that reflective component, I think that's a really interesting piece of this book, is like pushing people to really say, well, what, what did I do last time? And why? I'm interested to hear a little bit more about what made you start at that point.

Michae: Well so I'll tell you, and I'll give you the actual full origin story, which was in 2009, Clay Christensen said to Ethan Bernstein, you need to come to my class today. There's this guy named Bob who's going to do this thing that you need to come see. So Ethan shows up, not having any idea what he was in for, and he watches Bob do an interview about when someone purchased some random product or service. I don't, I don't know what it was. And basically the interview is about something you've already switched on. And the reason for that is we say, as you know, in the book, we say bitchin ain't switchin. And we complain all the time, but like, we actually want to know when someone makes the big choice to change behavior, to change what you're doing. What were the forces that were acting on them that caused them to make that switch? And so essentially, the interview, it uses criminal forensics techniques, and we basically use it to create a mini documentary of the last time someone switched behaviors in whatever area we're interested in studying. So Ethan watches Bob do this, and he goes, oh my God. I just earlier this morning, was counseling someone who was asking for job advice, career advice in my office, and I had that person in there for like an hour and a half, and I realized when I watched Bob do the interview that my advice was completely worthless because it was completely decoupled from their situation, their struggles, their sense of progress. If I had just interviewed them like Bob, just interviewed someone there, I would have learned so much and could have given so much better advice. And so honestly, that was the origin of the collaboration between Ethan and Bob, and Ethan created an entire class around it, and so as a result of that, we've been able to, as you know, study literally over 1,000 individuals changing jobs to build this data set around why did and it starts with, why did you last change? Really, to unearth those forces, and once you understand how they work in your life, then you can start to pull them forward and recognize the patterns going forward about what might be causing you to seek something new right now.

Julian: So just to kind of now, put a little spin on this, given Michael, given that our audience is composed of many of the people who are educating and hiring individuals, what are some of the key concepts that are relevant to them? I mean, I was, you know, we really was struck by the whole concept, for example, that you lay out of like employees hiring their employers. What does that mean for those of us who are hiring and training and educating?

Michael: Exactly? And I'm sorry I buried the lead when you asked about the jobs to be done there as well. Because Originally we wanted to call this book, Hire Your Next Job, because the big switch here, right is that we as individuals have agency in our lives, and you actually hire your next job. And the publisher said we hate that title, because no one thinks about the job market that way, and we're like, oh, but you do? You do hire your next job, and this is the big switch we want them to make. And so the big argument in the book, right? For individuals, and I'll get to the employer side in a moment, but for individuals, is if you understand that you actually hire your next job, meaning you choose, do I want to work here for the money that they're going to pay me for the title that they're going to give me for the responsibilities, et cetera, et cetera, right? That's a choice you make. And so yes, employers are hiring you, but you are also hiring your employer and the job you take. And there is a two way street there that we too often don't recognize, and when you do, it empowers you. Now for employers, the implication there is, hey, actually, even though people haven't thought about it this way, if you look at behavior over the last couple decades, it is increasingly clear that more and more people feel empowered to hire their next job because they're leaving, they're quitting, they're changing careers, right? We employers talk about this all the time. We would invest more in our workforce, except they're only here two years, and then they jump to something different, or what if they go to a competitor? Et cetera, et cetera. And so our big argument to employers is we actually have the root causes in our data set of over 1,000 job switchers of what causes them to say, today's the day I'm going to change my job. We know why employees quit in sharper detail, I would argue, than we've ever seen before. And so if you can understand the progress that individuals are making when they decide to hire your job, how do you create a workplace that people want to rehire each and every single day, as measured in their engagement, their productivity, right, their excitement for being in the job. And so out of that, and I will be super honest here, we have three conclusions of what we think this means for employers, of how they can do it differently. And we've really tested the heck out of this in the individual side. We have not tested the heck out of this on the employer side. And so, like, what I hope is employers read it and be like, Those are three good ideas to start, and here's two more. Or here's how I would perfect this, or here's how I would shape it. Because I think there's a world of things. Is my guess that employers would do differently with a real understanding of why people are hiring their companies in the first place, why they are firing them ultimately, and how do we become places that they want to rehire each and every single day?

Julian: I think I may be seeing your next book.

Michael: Or maybe we'll all collaborate together.

Julian: Sure!

Kaitlin: So yeah, I mean thinking we'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about what those recommend, what those preliminary recommendations are, Michael, recognizing that, as you said, maybe they not as well tested, but especially as we're thinking about talent development and retention, and what does it look like to as you said, have employees rehire their jobs every day, and have their jobs kind of shift and mold with them in their lives as they progress. What? What are what you know? What are your preliminary ideas? What are some moves that employers can start to make to respond to that reality?

Michael: The first one I would say is, you know, we know what exit interviews are when people it's their last day on the job, but if there's someone you really wanted to retain, an exit interview is way too late. Number one, you can't do anything with the data. Number two, the data is probably false, because no one really wants to be in an exit interview. They just want to get the heck out. So what we say is interview them on the way in about why they hired you. So the interview that I just described, we are trying to teach people and give them a free assessment to jobmoves.com that you can use with all of your employees, that they can actually use to say, Okay, now I understand these are the forces, the pushes and pulls that caused you to say, I want to work here. So that's number one. Let's understand why they're here, and once we do then, if you think about it, every single performance review, every single time we're meeting with management, they can say, hey, I remember that one of the reasons you left your last job and came to work here was because you felt like you were being micromanaged, right, really stifled by your boss. You know, are we falling into that same pattern here? How do we make sure we avoid that? I remember that you really wanted to stretch into these capabilities, you know, develop your management responsibilities or something like that. You know. How are we doing giving you those opportunities? I was mentoring someone the other day, and he said he hired his current employer, because he wanted to do product development that was customer facing, really get out with customers. And two and a half years in, he was only doing product development on internal systems. He was going nuts. Well, if you knew. That on the front end, you know, you wouldn't have lined him up right and made that mistake. So he's looking to leave. So that's number one. Number two. Job descriptions, as you know, have become hopelessly confusing and burdened and meaningless, I would argue, because essentially, the way we create them today is we take the job description of the last time we hired, and then we add all the skills and experiences and things that our competitors have, and then we get around in tables and think about all the other things we could use to filter people out, and we write those in as well. And so you get, like, laundry lists of meaningless job descriptions that by the time you finish it, you have no idea what this person actually does on a day to day basis, or what the real skills at the heart of the job are. To some extent, we're copying, and this is Ethan, because he comes from the HR world and his research at HBS, but you know, he's saying, like, look, these job descriptions, they're probably not going anywhere, because they're essentially legal documents to allow us to hire and fire employees and justify it legally. But if that's the case, let's create shadow job descriptions at the very least, and rather than, like, listing, you know, eight years of experience for an entry level job, good luck with that one or, you know, the bachelor's degree requirement or critical thinking communication, which are like great buzzwords, but I have no idea what they mean in practice in this job. Let's instead just write down what's the day to day and week to week, you know, experiences like in this role, and can I find people who have done the sorts of things that I, you know, want them to do in this job so we can do a better job of finding fit on both sides of the equation, so no one's misled when they when they show up on day one, and it's completely different from what they expected. And then the last thing is number three. When we sort of say the first two things, a lot of chief learning officers, chief human resource officers, they'll say, Well, we know all these things, but stupid managers, they won't do it. And it's because, I think it's asking a lot of managers to sort of remember, oh, the reason someone you know came into this role was they were trying to escape these things and move toward this. And now I have to incorporate it in my meetings and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, it's a lot. And so our push is, let's work smarter, not harder, by embedding these things into our actual HR systems. So let's embed the reasons that they left their last job, for example, in the performance management systems. Let's actually understand right on the HR review cycles. Let's have this be part of the form, so that we can say, How are we doing against your goals and your reasons that you hired the company initially, things like that, to really make it systematic, as opposed to ad hoc, hopefully will help us better align, you know, what progress means for an individual with what progress means for a company, because, you know, you got to hit your KPIs too, so that we're all swimming in the same direction. And by the way, if at some point it diverges, we can have a really transparent, upfront conversation about it, as opposed to something that's acrimonious. Because the one thing I know is true is no one will be in a role forever. That's just, that's not the way the world works. That's not the way humans work, and we will never be in a role forever. So let's just acknowledge that up front, stop making it something taboo, and have much more transparent, open conversations with each other.

Julian: So Michael, going back for a moment to the to the individuals who are seeking employer here their next job, many of our listeners are particularly focused on low income, first generation, you know, college students, people who may be new to this culture, if it's we're talking about the US and just just wondering, you know, and process that you describe in Job Works is very reflective. I mean, it's takes a lot of sort of soul searching, and it's very holistic, and, you know, and what about folks who are maybe hard pressed, you know, and racing from activity to activity, just trying to get through the day or paycheck to paycheck? Does it apply? Have you looked at these folks? Have you thought about how this might work?

Michael: I'm so glad you asked the question. So a lot of the research was actually on frontline employees and people in blue collar jobs. So we know that the process works with them. That said, You're right, the biggest thing that they face is time poverty. How do you carve out the time? I will be super honest, in my view, it's more about finding the right next step for someone, as opposed to you have to do all nine steps. And so what I mean by that is, I think there's a bit of a choose your own adventure when I when I'm counseling someone, and I'm probably on the phone, you know, once a week with someone who's looking for career advice, I try to listen to where they are, understand what their questions are, and then I try to give them the one. One Step or maybe two, that I think will really unlock progress at this point. And so I think that's number one is, if you're, you know, working with someone who's low income or has multiple jobs and is just, you know, trying to make ends meet, what's the leverage point you can, you know, you can use at the right time to help them unlock progress and get a deeper sense of what they're trying to achieve. And that's the last chapter of the book. Is like, pay it forward for mentors, right? And so I hope that's helpful. Is like, and I don't know if it's shared with all my co authors, but my own belief is, like, you don't have to do all nine. It's like, find the right one for you at the time. Some people, I think, are so consumed by just sort of, they're on the hamster wheel, right of job to job, and sort of thinking, Oh, it's about boosting pay and so forth. And what you realize, if you step back from it is, if you're not energized in your job, you're not going to do a great job, which means you're never going to get that promotion to get more money. To me, in that situation, like the most impactful thing you can do from our process is look back at your past roles and just figure out, like, what what drives your energy and what drains it, so you can get a clearer sense of like, oh, I should avoid, you know, even though it's like, you know, pays $1 an hour more, I realized from my past moves that like, I'm gonna stop showing up to work, or I'm gonna quit after two months, because it doesn't align with what gives me energy. So that can be, like, a huge boost, right? Because now I get, as you know, again, job seeker of limited time. This actually doesn't take a lot of time. It's like, over the course of two weeks. Anytime you think about, oh man, another meeting with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I remember that sucked in my last job to write it down. And by the end, you have, like, a collection of, like, very small insights that add up to something really big. And you can say, oh, wow, I really hate it when I have to be in ad hoc meetings without knowing in advance that it's going to show you know, again, I'm making it up. But you know, some people who are in shift work, for example, some of them maybe don't mind getting called to the manager, you know, on an ad hoc meeting with no notice, right? Because you get to pow wow with friends. Others, it's like the worst thing in the world, because I had lined up childcare in the following way, and it was dependent on me being home at such and such time, and now you just blew up my entire schedule. What the heck do I do? And so I, you know, that's something I think that can really give you a lot of insight into what does and doesn't work for you, to make sure I'm not going to take a job that that, that, you know, makes me do that thing. And yes, there's going to be other trade offs I do make, but like, I'm going to optimize around these one, two or three things that really are important to me.

Kaitlin:It's really helpful to hear how you think about, you know, which kind of which one, which steps do you need most imminently, and being able to build from those steps, you know, proactively, without necessarily needing to follow all nine. So following up on that idea, and you're already giving us so many kind of practical steps through what you've outlined, but I would like to give you the chance, given that our podcast name is Work Forces, I'd like to give the chance to we're going to specifically ask this question about being forces in this effort and around how can education and business leaders develop better strategies for supporting employee growth and development, and you've already said so much. But if there's anything else you'd like to add, I wanted to throw that question out to you.

Michael: I appreciate it. Well, I'll say on the educator side, I think number one, I actually think you can embed the nine steps into your programs. It'd be an amazing way not just to revamp Career Services. Frankly, but also a really clever way. I think you know talking to the people who did this when Southern New Hampshire University, like a project based College for America, right curriculum? How do you make sure that we're prototyping work before you actually take the job? Because that's also one of the big things of the book is like, how do you learn before switching rather than after you've switched? Because by the time you've switched too late, you know you're in a bad situation. If I can learn before switching. And so I think coupling some of the insights with the book with real work based learning for educators could be incredibly powerful, and I hope to see that for employers again. I mean, I think we have the three steps, but I think probably the bigger thing is, you know, as a manager, as a mentor, as someone seeking to guide those on your team, how do you have that? Right? You know, I see the struggle you're having. Let's have the right conversation at the right time. Rather than trying to overload your working memory with like the, well, you have to do an interview about the last time you switched jobs. Otherwise, we can't have the conversation about the no, right? Like that may be what's required, but it often won't be. So it's like, oh, you know, the big thing is, you don't know, you know Julian, how to pitch your career story in 30 seconds. Let's teach you how to tell your career story. That's the value add you need right now, really, using the process as a way to shape your conversations. Because, again, personal experience, but also, you know, a lot of people talk about this, most of us give really lousy job advice for the most part when we're asked. And we hope this gives you a template for how to do it better.

Julian: Yeah, it's so great to hear you lay that out. And it's funny, because so much of what you know, this podcast and Kaitlin's and my work is about, is making switches. And so, I mean, even as you were talking, yeah, jobs, but this is a conversation that switches the way we think about learning. That switches the way we think about how we spend our free time. I mean, it's just, it's a we've got to get to a better place.

Michael: Actually, can I bend your ear both on that for one second? Because it's, it's sort of my view that we are talking a lot, as you know, about skills based hiring, both in work and higher ed. But I think what we mean by that all of us have very different conceptions of it right now. And my own view through writing this book is like, if we think it's going to be some sort of technocratic exercise where, like, I have an assessment that defines critical thinking and like, and somehow I fit these. It's not going to happen, because employers have no idea what the skills are called at the heart of their successful employees, nor should they, and we don't know how to do those stuff. But what we do know how to do is like, oh, you know, in this job, this is somewhat, this is a task, or this is an experience, something you know, someone does many times. Okay, so in the education, how do I build opportunities for someone to be able to do that over the course of their educational career? And then, you know from that, oh, I see I actually have to build your skill or knowledge in this thing, so I'm going to have some direct instruction, you know, around this thing, to build you up to doing this project or work based thing. And I think if we we can migrate if it's almost experience based hiring as opposed to skills based, again, it's, I mean, it's, I'm sort of bashful, because you guys kind of built this, but like, I think we can unlock a lot of this realignment that we want to see, and between work and higher education in ways that I think right now are a bit of a mystery to folks, and we're all trying to build taxonomies and languages, and I just don't think it's going to work.

Julian: Yeah, and I think, and that's why Job moves is so of such great interest to us, and so exciting, because you're beginning to break it down, like, how do you practically take these steps? And I love that. It's a bit of a pick what works for you, whether your co authors agree or not. It seems very practical. I mean, for me, it's almost like an update of what I did when I read, What Color Is Your Parachute I, you know, I way too add to understand the whole thing, but I zeroed in on what is that I love to do, that I do best, and that's kind of guided my career. And every decision I've made, very simple but very profound,

Michael: 100%. And I think I mean, our hope is this is honestly the 21st century refresh of What Color Is Your Parachute is sort of the thing that I've had in my mind. It's much shorter than what color is your parachute and to your point, it's okay if you don't get every nine, all nine steps right, like, it's okay if the petal flower and what color is your shoot parachute exercise doesn't work for you. It's like getting the right leverage at the right time for you.

Kaitlin: Yeah absolutely. And I would circle back on your other point around, you know, I think this concept of experiential or scenario based hiring, I mean, I think it rings so true, especially in light of the fact that so many job,. I mean, any job is inherently multidisciplinary, multi skilled, right? You can't say, Okay, well, if you have skills in this one area, then yes, you'll be successful. It's if you take on this situation, right? What skills are you pulling on in order to be successful? And so that really, that that rings true to me, as especially as we see, you know, the emergence of different types of technology that can support some of our work. And what are the skills that are becoming more and more essential as as you know, AI and other tech forms kind of take shape and have increasing influence.

Michael: 1000%. And really quickly off that, like, if the rate of change of what work is accelerates, our only way to keep up to it is not to codify it in some overly technocratic way, but to give people actual experiences using the AI and things like that to keep up with it. And I think then the answer to folks who say, Well, you know, people from privileged or upper income backgrounds, they're going to have more chances to get those experiences true, which is why I think education has such an important role to play here, because you can actually embed this into your program so the low income students are not left behind in this era.

Kaitlin: Absolutely. So Michael, as we wind down this conversation today. I mean, I feel like we could, we could continue to speak about this for much more time, but given that we're winding down, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you want to check out more about the book, it's at jobmoves.com. It's got a free chapter there, the intro, as well as the assessment I talked about and some other tools and ways to purchase the book. And then if you want to follow me, I'm on all the social networks. At MichaelBHorn, whether that's X or LinkedIn or even Instagram, I'm not on Tik Tok. But then you can always follow me at Michael B Horn on sub stack at the future of education or my website, michaelbehorn.com

Julian: Thank you so much, Michael for taking this time. It's always so great to talk with you, and it's kind of an update and a very important one, I think, and can't wait for this to get out there to the world.

Michael: Appreciate you both. Thank you.

Kaitlin: Thank you. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We are also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces, dot info or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify. Please Subscribe, Like and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Matt Merino, CEO of Education Management Solutions (EMS), speaks about the innovative ways technology can be used to address talent gaps. Matt discusses the challenges and opportunities of leveraging technology to improve training, onboarding, and ongoing development for healthcare professionals. While Matt's focus is healthcare, his insights on leveraging technology to innovate and scale learning solutions offer valuable takeaways for leaders across all industries. He also shares his perspective on the importance of continuous evaluation and the need to start developing talent pipelines earlier on in a learner's journey. Tune in to learn more about how technology can be used to create a more efficient and effective healthcare system.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

Julian: One of the themes that keeps coming up on the podcast and in our consulting work is the need to pair work experience with learning.

Kaitlin: That's right, Julian, there are many innovative approaches emerging to address industry skill and hiring gaps, whether through apprenticeships, work and learn models or tech enabled simulations. We're excited to have a guest on the podcast today who is a leading expert in these tech enabled options with a focus on healthcare.

Julian: Absolutely, healthcare is a particularly ripe topic for discussion, given the challenges of regulation and providing hands on clinical experience. And so to introduce today's guest, Matt Marino is CEO of education management solutions, or EMS. Prior to his role at EMS, Matt served as the chief experience officer at Orbis Education, a program development and management company working with universities and healthcare systems to expand educational programs in nursing and therapies. During his many years in higher education, Matt led teams involved with the initial launch of online and hybrid programs for Arizona State University Online, the University of Miami, George Washington University, and Southern New Hampshire University. And before his career in higher education, Matt was a member of the United States Army Special Operations community, serving in over a dozen different countries. During his time in service, he was ordered over a dozen medals, including the Bronze Star in 2004. Thank you for joining us on the podcast today. Matt.

Matt Merino: Thanks for having me, and thank you for that extended introduction. I appreciate it. It makes me uh, reminds myself just how mature I'm getting. So I appreciate it.

Julian: Oh, and we had to edit that one down so you have even more to tell.

Kaitlin: Indeed with that being said, Matt, we did give that bio, but please, we'd like to hear a little bit more in your own words about what led you to education management solutions and more about your background.

Matt: Thanks for having me once again. For me, Education Management Solutions (EMS) is just another continuation on the path of what I've tried to do throughout my my career, and that's finding places that I believe can have impact on what I consider to be critical issues that affect people, regardless of things like socio economic status or location or race. Something that that has mass impact to all of us. So with EMS, this was just another opportunity to step into an organization that I thought had incredible potential to really drive at some of the deepest challenges we face and what is the most, in my view, indiscriminatory fact of life, and that is our health and our end of life at some point. So that's what brought me here. I've always lived in the higher ed world just because, uh, it speaks to me from a purpose standpoint. I came from a family of educators. I realized at a very young age that I was never going to have the patience required to be an educator myself. So next best up, let's, let's find a way to work in industries that can assist educators or assist workforce and people moving forward with their lives.

Julian: So what are the problems that EMS is addressing, Matt.

Matt: The problems that we face, that we're really going after now are trying to leverage technology solutions to assist with what I consider the big challenges we're facing in healthcare. One is we just don't have enough people. These shortages in critical roles are really a combination of two things. It's how many, obviously, clinicians are being able to be produced. But we're just in a situation where we have an aging population, demands in health care, and the needs in health care continue to go up. So we have a shortage of people. We have more people needing care. Solving it with a purely a people perspective, that's a long term solution. It takes time for the education process, through certification, being able to get all the way through and being able to work in an actual clinical setting. I do believe that what we're doing is we're trying to attack the shortage, the onboarding and then the delivery of care in a way that we're trying to do it on a continuum with not only higher education, but directly with providers. But we're trying to give them technology solutions that allow for the most rapid onboarding for new clinicians, gets them at the top of practice, and makes it so that they really do have tools that can take away anything that isn't working with patients directly. Is probably the best way to say it.

Julian: So tell us a little bit about the tools that you've developed at EMS and how they work and exactly which level of clinicians are you targeting.

Matt: Yeah. So very interesting. You know, our roots started in the world of simulation solutions for nursing schools, medical schools helping to to train doctors and nurses using those simulation capabilities that are all been used either to replace clinical experience or prep for clinical experience. So that's the roots of the organization. We see simulation has moved absolutely into the provider space, and is gaining traction there right now. On our end, though, something we were really excited about in the past year introducing was two other pieces to this, and the first one was taking all of that simulation, which traditionally has been done in a very large facility with dedicated real estate and rooms, so a high capital expense, in creating those same capabilities in a mobile solution that can be wheeled around in a 25 pound case as a way to not only reduce the cost, but reduce the requirement related to space needed and whatnot. The second thing we did is we've invested heavily in competency, education, management and tracking, which is really related to how do doctors, it goes all the way down to medical assisting. It can be used for technologists, anyone who works in a clinical capacity in the workforce. This is designed so that organizations can have a way to not only evaluate where their clinical competencies are for their specific role, and that role could be the same job title, perhaps, of nurse, but they could work in one of 30 specialty areas. So really knowing where their competencies fit based on what's required for the role they're in, and most importantly along the way, is instead of trying to do a one size fits all for training and developing clinicians throughout their time with an organization, the tool gives the insight, the calculations, the data, the visibility, so that they can now plan out more of a custom and more efficient and effective ongoing clinical training model within the systems. It helps with standardization. It also helps with just a broad overview. So when those times come and you see this all the time, where they've got to flip different clinicians to fill in for different shifts in different areas, who's best suited for that, so that the quality of care remains right where the expectation.

Kaitlin: So Matt, as you're talking about these different solutions, it sounds like they're very focused on the end user being the learner. Is there also a side of this that focuses on the needs of HR teams? Or how? What is the link there?

Matt: Yeah, so, so one of the things that we're really focused on with this, and it's a great point, is visibility all the way throughout an organization. So there is the HR component. And oftentimes what we see in the clinical setting is that we'll integrate an HRIS into the system, since ours is strictly focused on clinical skills. But what it does do, it has all these different permissions sets so an administrator could see the entire system, and perhaps someone working just at, let's say, one hospital in a set of 30, could see just their hospital, maybe a floor manager can see just their floor, and a shift manager may just be able to see that shift. So we're going to give views all the way through, to give all the business intelligence that's needed for the organization, regardless of level. And you know, the other side of it that we do that I think, is really important. It gets overlooked a lot of times. I am an eternal optimist, believing that whatever people choose to do with their career, they want to be good at it. They want to be successful. So the learner or clinician, in this case, can see where they're at based on expectation, and it can even give a plan of here's areas to focus on, and recommendations on what could be done next. You know so often times when, when we're going through evaluations or being evaluated, the most important piece that sometimes gets the least amount of attention is just that I have the awareness of where I'm at and what could be done next, as opposed to, oh, well, here's your final report, and you're deficient here, here and here. If I can see that ongoing and see improvement over time, that's really what we're chasing for, for the individual user, to be able to see.

Kaitlin: Matt, you know, I think we, having spent a number of years designing competency based education, I'm curious to know when we, when you're talking about competencies, who's defining them? Are they coming as like predefined in your system? Are you working with individual employers to define those, to define competencies? What's your process?

Matt: I love that question because it's really important. So I think of competencies right as kind of the end all be up at the roll up of a bunch of different things. And what that leads to is that you often we'll see the same title used for a competency, but what our partner organizations feel makes up all of those sub competencies and skills that roll up into it there is variance between them. So oftentimes, we will come with a framework that says, here are some of the examples of what we've seen from like organizations, without giving away who they are. But I think what our partners appreciate is the flexibility, because even sometimes with the same competencies, not only are there different areas that roll up into them depending on who you're working with, but there's different value based on them. So you will see a different value, and we don't want to make it so that each competency is weighted the same. We want to give you the ability to be flexible with that, because we do understand that, you know, we could have a world where someone needs has 15 different competencies that they need to be successful at, or they want to measure or be considered knowledgeable, and that doesn't mean that all 15 of those carry the same value or the same weight from the organizational perspective. So we try to give that flexibility in the system.

Kaitlin; Really interesting. And I feel, yes: It's like, depending on what role you're in, depending on where you're being employed, exactly the emphasis on those skills might be different. So I appreciate there's like, a level of variability within the different competencies as you're talking about, I guess, like how they roll up. I appreciate that.

Matt: In a perfect world for us, right? We'd live in a world where everyone valued in every Health Core organization the exact same skill and competency in the same way. But that's never going to be the case. So as opposed for our viewpoint, instead of trying to force someone into, quote, unquote, our ideal. Let's listen to them and see what they consider the ideal for their organization and help them get there.

Julian: Matt, at this stage, what are the what are the greatest challenges you see with taking this, this work, to scale?

Matt: Boy, I think there's a lot of challenges right now. I think the first one is when you're working in an area that has so many pressures on it. And I would say healthcare is absolutely that there is pressure coming from all different angles right now. Sometimes you're just battling to get through the next week, the next month, the next quarter. And really where, where this is focused on is a long term solution that you'll see impacts, but the impacts just get greater and greater with the solution, the longer you're using it. So it's not a magic bullet. And sometimes when organizations are struggling, they're looking for magic bullets. I'd say there's one. I think that it is a mindset also that no different than other areas in workforce that we have to get to that, and it's hard to admit, for some people, is that we all get educated. And I learned it. I was excellent at it. I have that skill now, but over time, if you don't use it all the time, it starts to degrade a little bit and like, if we would put a third year business calculus problem in front of me right now, I'm pretty sure I couldn't answer one of them, but, you know, 25 years ago, I was pretty good at doing those types of things. So I think having that mindset of continuous not only improvement, but continuous evaluation, so that it can't be an event, right? How we evaluate people shouldn't be an event. It should be just part of what we do every day. So there, and I think that also is a bit of a mindset shift in an environment in any industry that has regulation and whatnot, it's documentation. We're going through this regulatory event, and we're done, and now we're done with this, and let's move on. I really think we have to get to a world where we quit thinking of things and events and just thinking of as things we do all the time. And the final thing that we have to really do is that we have to understand that in these very specific verticals like healthcare, you have brilliant minds that are there to be clinicians. They're not there to be technologists. They're not there to be people that come from other areas, and this is something we work on. We do this. We're not just there to sell people the solution and walk away. You've got to give them resource to help it get set up and educated. Because the term competency in itself has been–had liberties taken against it over the past few years, to say the least. So I think there's an education at standpoint of what really is competency, because it goes way beyond just doing a checklist and looking at skills. So I think you've got to provide resource and education and partnership with these organizations as you get them on the path.

Kaitlin: Well, right? And then it's interesting to think about the complexities of implementation of these tools, right? So then it's not just about, oh, here's your tech tool. Implement it, it. There's so much more there.

Matt: I think so many have lived through that, right? Like they've lived through the world of someone's going to come in and they're going to sell me this and and they'll show you what the end product looks like, and you're like, Oh, this is amazing, but there's a bunch we have to do along the way. So when we do it, we don't really sell it as per se or offer it as and here's a piece of software that'll do this. It's more of, yes, it's going to be a piece of software, but let's work with you, with some of our resource our experts who have done this, to help you get everything organized how, and then we can build off that as we go, and then get it to the point over the first six months where then we really, as we're sitting right next to you, putting the system together, we're training you how to maintain it yourself. So so it's a bit different approach from that aspect, and a lot of technology organizations go but that's why I like the word a technology solution, and not just software.

Kaitlin: Right. It's a higher touch model where your focus much higher touch. So, Matt, just to drive us to the concrete for a second. Could you give us an example or two of like, when you mentioned, you know, the mobile solution for a simulation like, what are some of the content areas like that are addressed, like, can you give us an example?

Matt: So, so there's many healthcare organizations that have annual trainings that are required for clinicians, and if you're a large organization, or let's, let's take a large healthcare system that maybe has 180 different clinical environments, and those can be hospitals, maybe clinics, but everyone has to go through this training. Well, they have a couple options. One older model that's still heavily in use is, let's bring everybody to one place and train them, or send trainers around location by location to do it. The old satellite model that's incredibly expensive and time consuming. Another model has been that we've all seen in my military days. Saw this all the time, the train, the trainer. So let's take a group that we're going to turn into to people who's going to deliver this block of instruction. Let's bring them one place get that, and then let's send them out there to all the different locations. And we know there's individuals, there's changes that goes on, and the consistency sometimes lacks there. So that is an exact use case we were dealing with, without revealing my partner's name, 180 locations, trying to figure out, how are we going to deliver consistent training? So they took our mobile solution being able to put those at the sites. It goes beyond just being able to observe the training, because it is integrated with team and Zoom, or WebEx or whatever your preferred methodology is, so you can have synchronous, one person, delivering, evaluating a time. But it also comes loaded with these mobile solutions with a tablet with our software on it that allows you to record it. It allows you to make annotations while you're doing it. It allows you to set up checklists ahead of time so that you can have a consistent evaluation and you can debrief it, which is very popular, where people are going to record it, then afterwards they're going to watch it together and go through here's what went well. Here were the opportunities and more that it can be saved and then automated and rolled up into one system. So that's where it becomes different, that instead of people having to transfer data or enter it one by one. Once that's stored and saved, it can go right into to the bigger system. So it creates an efficiency with managing it. So there's an example on the on the mobile training side, right?

Kaitlin: So it sounds like it both decreases the concerns around variability and also allows for maybe more responsiveness as training needs change and evolve.

Matt: I would say, not only responsiveness, accuracy, which I think is a huge challenge right now, every organization struggles with that is, if you're a large organization, consistency and evaluation of the training and development you're delivering. That's a tough area.

Julian: Building on that comment, Matt, you know, so that your company is currently focused on innovation and healthcare space, but, and while we have many listeners in and interested in that space, what, what practical steps can our can the audience take to become forces in leveraging, you know, technology to address talent gaps in in other industries

Matt: Yeah, I think there's, I think there's a few. I think the first one is, and this is the hardest one is sometimes is not to be scared of the tech, if that makes sense, because it changes rapidly. It moves rapidly, and when I say not be scared of it, understand. It that what's out there is learnable. I think, over the past, call it 12 to 18 months, we've all been bombarded with the nebulous term of AI, thinking that AI is going to solve everything for us with a wave of wand, but it's not. It's a great tool to use as assisting but it's not a replacement tool. So I think that, no matter where you're at, you can't be afraid of the technology. I think number two, it goes to that mindset of, I should look at technology solutions as a way to take the repetitive or the mundane or something that doesn't require my skill set to do. And that's where I should find my technical solutions, and the stuff that does require that thought, that expertise that I bring to the table or my organization does, that's not what we're going to try to wipe out with tech, nor should we. And then I think the final thing is understanding I mentioned this earlier. There's no magic bullet. Nothing solves it overnight. You have to think of it as a continuum of what are the areas that I have those opportunities to bring technology into? And it doesn't mean that day one I flip the switch and it's doing all of it, but having a longer term strategic vision of where are the areas that I would if I could say tomorrow, we don't have to spend 10% of our time doing that, well, there's where I think you have to develop more of a longer term view of how do we get to that place, using some tech enabled resource.

Kaitlin: I'm curious to talk a little bit more I think about the not being scared of the tech, because I feel like there's this balancing act right of Sure, not being scared, but also recognizing Technology is everywhere, and what does it look like to successfully integrate these tools or or, or determine which ones to use. Like, it just, I think that is, it feels like that's a big challenge for so, for so many people right now, is just like, Okay, well, you know, we know there's so much out there, like we have to use, we want to use it all, or we have to start, you know, we have to integrate the newest thing. And so it's not even necessarily, there's the fear piece. There's also the excitement. And it's like, how do you think about this technology in a strategic way, recognizing that maybe you know you want to seize the moment and get the next best thing that's out there?

Matt: Yeah, I think that. Look, if nothing else, most technology companies are really tremendous marketing tools. But I'll say this, so there's another side of the equation. So yes, you should be excited. Yes, we can't be afraid of it. Yes, we have to have a plan to know what we want to take on. But then there's the other side. The other side is, what are our capacities, internal capabilities and skill sets and resources we have? Right? Because if you try to do everything at once on limited resources, nothing works. So I think there's the first step. It's saying, okay, what are the first things that we what does our internal resource looks like, and what's our internal capability look like? I think it's really important when you're picking technology solutions, that you have to have the right people at the table. So yes, there's always, you always got to have your people from your technology group and understand the security and how it integrates into other tools and whatnot. But I always want the end users in the room when we're having these discussions, because if the people who are going to be using it aren't comfortable, or it's not user friendly enough, or they don't see the value in it, none of this matters. And we've, I bet all of us have worked at an organization at least once in our lives, where there was this really flashy tool introduced that did something and no one really ever did anything with it. So that's kind of my viewpoint is, if you have the people who it is meant to impact giving their direct feedback, and they may say, look, we'd love to use it, but this looks really complex. I don't know if we can Okay, then we probably need to find something else. Or if they say, yeah, it's easy to use, but I don't know how it helps us. Well, that's probably not the answer either. So I think it's that internal view that so many organizations miss, because when talking with technology companies, and look, I'm one of them. I can look at it and say, yes, this is exactly how we could impact your organization. But I think it's important we take a step back and say, but we need to first of all give you a realistic view of what that lift looks like. And let's talk about the resource you have in your end users to make sure that it's hitting your need.

Kaitlin: And making sure, like you said, it's staff from the purchaser's end, right? Like that, in the end of the day, well supported. On, on, I know you have a high touch model, but also making sure the staff is there to support the tool.

Matt: But in the end, right? No organization wants to be reliant on an outside organization to run internal things they consider critical to the foundation of what they do, right? Like they want to have a tool that they've got assistance with, getting it up and running, working with the solution, but then they want to be able to handle it on their own. And quite honestly, that's what we want for them, too. So I think having those conversations and not just hey, someday, it's putting time flights and timestamps on things. And I think you have to do that when working with another organization, internally in your organization, you have to say, we're going to make this investment. And that's what it is, an investment now, well, 90 days we need to be here, and in 120 days we need to be here. 180 days we got to be at this point of usage of these said solutions. So I think it takes some really specific conversation.

Julian: It makes me wonder about opportunities that you see in the future.

Matt: Boy, you know, the thing about the opportunities of the future are for me, I look at it and say, I have a high level of confidence that in talking strictly in healthcare right now, but this applies to most verticals. I think that have a specialized form of education, training, whatever it may be. Most of the time, people who enter verticals such as these, a they know this is what they want to do. It's not so much. I'm trying to find a way to make more money, or most people who are going to work in the health professions, I always feel it's more of a calling. More of a calling for them than a job, per se. I'd say that number two, we know how much intense pressure is on our health care professionals right now, and both those things I just said could come across as really negative, but that's what I think leads to the opportunities of the future, is that right now, we haven't given those tools fully to those professionals, and when we do over time, as we have better prepared clinicians, better ongoing, skilled clinicians that are being utilized to do what they're there for and not doing mundane other work, taking time away, it's going to lead to elevated care, and it's going to lead to better outcomes, and that's a world that we can get to, and I think we have to have a we have to change our mindset of the future, of the possibility where we can't wait till things devolve into a crisis before we do something about that, which tends to be how we function. It seems lately is that we wait for something to be an absolute crisis, and then we try to figure out a plan. The good thing is, we still know, I don't want to call it a crisis yet, it's extreme strain, but we know it's coming, so we have time to do something about it. That means we should be in the educational phase. We should be working with people at younger ages to identify who potentially would want to work in healthcare. And if, and I've seen some really interesting things going on, where you see these high school academies getting built in partnership with healthcare organizations to actually build out a healthcare focused education, focused secondary education, which I think is really smart, right? So for not waiting till someone's a senior to have an experience or working in the summer, all four years of high school, they are integrating and weaving healthcare education into every subject. And I think that's where we've got to start thinking about every field of need, of profession in this country, is we've got to start younger and younger with getting people involved in it. And it doesn't mean with it, people need to decide by the time they're 10 years old whether this is what I'm going to be but when we know that there is that interest in that drive, the best way to foster and encourage it is to do it at a younger and younger.

Kaitlin: I think that's a theme we're seeing time and again, as you're saying across industries, Matt, that the need to start to build this pipeline earlier and just an honest and build the pipeline. But also, as you're saying, just make everyone aware, right? When we say, when we talk about jobs in healthcare, here's what they are, and here are the skills you use, and here's what a day looks like, right? I think more and more there's the need to build that in to secondary learning experiences, so that people know that kids know, like, here are the options available. And especially we're talking about changes in tech around implementation of tools. But changes in tech really do impact these jobs as well. And so what it looks like to be in a lot of these roles is really different than 10, 20 years ago.

Matt: You're absolutely right, and I think it'll change even more in the next 10 or 20 years. You know, as an interesting conference a few weeks ago talking about healthcare, and one of the questions posed was, and certain professional roles, or clinic clinical roles. Are those skills going to have to be redefined, or those competencies gonna have to be redefined over the next decade as the the world of work changes with the technology involved with it, I think it's a fair discussion, but once again, we need to have the discussion, and we need to be thinking about it before it's on top of us.

Kaitlin: 100% so with that being said, and with us talking about future opportunities, how can our listeners continue to follow the work you're doing and learn more about your work.

Matt: Easiest place to follow us is at ems-works.com. Can also follow us on normal social media. Pick your your favorite social media, Instagram, X, LinkedIn, whatever it is. And we will continue to do what we like to do. You know, we are, we are focused on that whole idea of, how are we going to give people the tools they need to be successful at what they want to do? And we're going to have some exciting stuff coming up here in the next three or four months of new announcements of additional technology we're putting into this space so you can follow us there and and hopefully it keeps everyone informed, and hopefully more p

Julian: Well, thank you so much, Matt. It's been a great conversation, and we so appreciate your time, and I'm ready to save your site and keep checking in to follow your progress.

Matt: Well, I really appreciate you having me. Really enjoyed the conversation and appreciate the work you're doing and putting some light on a really needed aspect of the world that we are in, and the world, more importantly that we are going to be.

Kaitlin: Thank you so much, Matt for taking the time. Thanks so much. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces, dot info or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, please subscribe, like and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Pardis Mahdavi, a professor of medical anthropology, founder of Entheon Journeys, and former university president, discusses how higher education can evolve to meet modern workforce demands through technological innovation and cultural transformation. She examines the growing disconnect between student needs and traditional higher education approaches, emphasizing how educational technology can enhance learning outcomes and promote equity. Mahdavi draws from her extensive leadership experience across diverse institutions to outline practical strategies for creating sustainable innovation in higher education. She argues that embracing technological enhancement in education is crucial for maintaining higher education's relevance, supporting social mobility, and strengthening democracy.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

Julian: It feels like the last few weeks have been a whirlwind of activity between the kickoff of a new academic year coupled with our own rebranding Kaitlin.

Kaitlin: Oh, I know it Julian, there's been so much activity, and it's exciting to see our podcast and consulting efforts now housed under the Work Forces umbrella. There are so many overlapping themes across our podcast discussions and consulting work that it really just feels right to have everything live in one place. One theme that has emerged over time, and really it's come up time and again, is how higher education keeps pace and remains agile in a fast moving, ever changing economic landscape. So I'm looking forward to our discussion today to dig deeper on this topic.

Julian: I'm thrilled to return to the topic of higher ed, and today we have a higher ed leader who is at the forefront of innovation, Pardis Mahdavi is a professor of anthropology at the University of La Verne. Prior to this role, she served as president at the University of La Verne, provost and executive vice president at the University of Montana, as well as dean at Arizona State University and the University of Denver, after serving in multiple roles at Pomona College. Her research interests include gendered labor, human trafficking, migration, human rights, and public health in the context of changing global and political structures, and she's a widely published author. Pardis is a lifetime member of the Council on Foreign Relations and Young Presidents Organization, and has been a fellow at the Social Sciences Research Council, the American Council on Learned Societies, Google Ideas and the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. She also serves as a board member for the Lumina Foundation, our sponsor, and the Human Trafficking Legal Center. Welcome to Work Forces. Pardis.

Pardis Mahdavi: Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I am thrilled and honored to be here today.

Kaitlin: Well, we're thrilled you could join us, and so as we get started today, Pardis, we'd love to learn more about your background and the story of your career path in higher education.

Pardis: You know, interestingly enough, my story actually starts when I was a pretty young girl. I'm Iranian-American, as my name suggests, and my parents came here during the revolution. I was initially born. I'm a child of the Revolution, so maybe I'm dating myself, but I was born here. My parents, you know, they came here during the Revolution. So I was born here in Minnesota, and we lived in Minnesota until I was about six years old. And one day I came home from school and there was a sign posted in front of my house, and it said, "Burn this house. Terrorists live here," which, of course, my Iranian-American mind, my six year old mind, could not get my head around. I thought, you know, my dad is a doctor. My mom is a health provider. We are, you know, and but it would this was, you know, Minnesota and, you know, during Iran, you know, or On contrary, on hostage crisis. And so really, growing up at a time of antipathy towards Iranians, right in this country. And so my father made the very difficult decision to pack everything up once again and move from Minnesota to California. But my father said something to me in that move, and that's really what drives me, you know, in higher ed he said, "you know," Pardis, "people can take everything from you, they can take your belongings, they can take your home, they can even take your country, but the one thing nobody can ever take from you is your education." And that's really what drove me to understand the value of access to education, because no matter where you go, it was having that education that always opened up doors and opportunities. And, you know, for an immigrant family to be able to do all the things that we were able to do, it was education that allowed us to do that. And so that really propelled me to want to be, you know, part of making sure that everybody can access what can never be taken away from them. So that was really sort of my journey into higher education. School became my job. And I really, you know, it propelled me to becoming, you know, a leader in higher education, because I saw, you know, the value, the power and the importance of being able to access higher education. I also understood the role of education in upholding and supporting democracy. You know, coming from a place like Iran, I actually went back, you know, between 2002 and 2007. I taught there, and really felt the weight of trying to be a part of higher ed in a place which is so heavily regulated. I thought, gosh, you know, there's so much we take for granted in this country and the power of American higher education in upholding democracy is one that we can't lose. And so, you know, over my career trajectory, I watched as the perception of higher education for Americans has gone down. You know, as we sit here today, more than half of Americans believe college is not a good use of time. And you know, we're facing the possibility that for the first time in American history, the generation that's coming up, my kids, generation will be less educated than the generations that came before it. That is not a trend that we're bucking in the right direction. That, to me, is a national security crisis, a crisis of democracy that keeps me up at night. And so really, what I've always wanted to do is figure out ways of making higher education better and being able to both meet the needs of students and meet the needs of the democracy which you know, of which workforce is a huge part of all of that.

Julian: So in your journey in higher ed, in addition to, you know, per your very impressive resume, you've, you've worked with many different kinds of higher ed institutions, and I guess I'm really interested in understanding, you know, kind of your take on the state of higher ed With respect to that national security and democracy and workforce development issue. And then segue to really, what is the problem that you are now looking to solve for as you've stepped away from being a higher ed president?

Pardis: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think for a long time, you know, the conversation Higher Ed was about access, right? It was, how can we get as many people to be able to access as possible? And then we talked a lot about attainment. How can we make sure people are finishing, that they're not stopping out, you know? And now we're talking a lot about narrating the importance and the value of higher education. And I think one of the things I've observed, and as you mentioned, I've been at top 10 small liberal arts college. I've been at America's largest university, ASU. I've been at the land grant, Montana. I was president of a Hispanic Serving Institution, private in Los Angeles. And one of the common themes I see is that there is this absolute disconnect between what students are demanding from the higher education experience, right? So you've got students saying, hey, you know, we want to be trained with, you know, technologically enhanced learning coming out of the pandemic. We see students are more risk averse than ever before. We see that lecture is dead, no more chalk and talk. And we see students asking for engaged and experiential learning, very clearly, asking for these things and saying, help us connect the dots. Help us to develop. You know, we're working so hard developing that pipeline from K 12 into college. Now we've got to help develop that pipeline, connecting those dots from college to career, right? What does that look like, and how do you start to render that legible? Not to say that there isn't a role for liberal arts, but it's, it's a larger picture. And students are asking for, you know, legibility. They're asking for curricula that have both horizontality and verticality to it. They're very clear on what they're asking for. And on the other end, workforce is very clear on what they're asking for, right? They're asking for students who are able to be critical thinkers, problem solvers, effective communicators, having certain skills. And yet you've got kind of higher ed sitting right here, not necessarily making the changes or being responsive to the needs of, you know, and again, we wouldn't ever narrate students as customers, but, but to the needs of the people who were trying to serve. We're trying to serve students, and we're trying to serve the democracy. And so the question is, how can we best do that? We've seen in the last decade or more, the emergence of Ed Tech as a field, right? Educational Technologies, technologically enhanced learning things like virtual reality, we know that they are incredibly effective for learning outcomes, right? I think about, you know, at Arizona State dreamscape learn as a VR modality that was deployed for gen ed classes like Biology 101, and the results were staggering. Students were retaining much more of the material. Students who were neurodivergent or from diverse backgrounds, English as a second language, they were all doing much better. So the data are clear that technologically enhanced learning modalities both help meet students meet and also help students develop a skill set that they can translate to workforce. And yet, higher ed is sort of sitting here in this moment of oh my gosh, there's these different needs being articulated. There's a whole slew of possible solutions. And I think that what's happening is that it's becoming increasingly difficult for us in higher ed to have the conversations that we need, need to have, because it's become so politicized, it's become so fractured. And, you know, we've lost the focus on service and on serving our role and and we've lost that mission focus of sort of serving students and serving the democracy.

Kaitlin: Yeah, we are in the middle of a very complex landscape, and I'm curious to hear more about your thoughts about you know, what are the waves forward, right? Like at a time of so many kind of competing, I wouldn't say priorities, but competing needs, or maybe different levers that are being pulled. And you know, how do we serve both the needs of students and the needs of industry? And make sure you know higher ed is fulfilling its mission. And higher ed, of course, very broadly defined, right? It looks very different in different places.

Pardis: 100%.

Kaitlin: But what do you see as some ways forward in this, in this complex space.

Pardis: And again, you know, you don't want to say something is a magic bullet, let alone do you want to say technology is a silver bullet that's going to solve everything, right? But I do think that, you know, in higher ed, we're in this, we're finally starting to feel the very real tensions between an ecosystem that has, even though you have the protections of tenure, has been a bit risk averse, right? And I think one of the reasons that Arizona State has been so successful in innovation is that there is a very high tolerance for failure. There's a high there's an ecosystem where there's a high tolerance for failure, so that, you know, experimentation is kind of, you know, sort of the coin of the realm, right? Experimenting. When I was a president, I had a high tolerance for failure, high fidelity to data. You know, you do your homework, and then you start to experiment. And, you know, we're in this moment where there has been a flourishing of Ed Tech. There has been a flourishing of technologies like, I mean, just at the very basic level, ChatGPT, right? And, you know, learning how to teach with these technologies really requires us to have some hard conversations about what is the infrastructure that's necessary in higher ed to create a sustainable architecture where technology can enhance learning and allow us to meet the needs of students and employers. And so that's what I'm doing now. My colleagues and I, you know, we've started our own consulting project, EES Associates, and what we're trying to do is actually help leaders in higher education figure out, first, what are the technologies that, as you mentioned, Kaitlin, you know, universities are different. It's not a one size fits all, right. And so something that's going to work for Arizona State, you know, something like Dreamscape Learn, which is, you know, scalable, big, you know, that's going to meet that population of over 100,000 students is not going to fit for Pomona College, right, which has less than 2,000 students. But that's not to say that Pomona College can't benefit from technologically enhanced learning, right? And so actually, places like Pomona are great places to have those conversations about technologies like ChatGPT and, you know, what are the ethics? How do we think about it? How can we study it and then use it as a problem solve? You know, people, other people have used this, you know, analogy, sort of like when the calculator was invented. At first, math teachers were like, how are we ever going to teach math? And now, of course, we can't imagine teaching math without calculators. You know, someday we won't be able to imagine teaching many subjects without ChatGPT, but we still have to learn and harness and so, you know, there is a place for different institutions to plug in. And so what we do is we try to figure out, okay, what's the best technology to meet your needs, and also, what is your unique skill set as a college or university or an EdTech group, what is your unique skill set where you can serve this larger mission of kind of cracking this code of, what do we do to continue to make higher education relevant for workforce, relevant for student needs, ultimately relevant for social Mobility? Right? Because social mobility is really what all of this is about. So we help match what the right technologies are with the right institutions. And then I think even more importantly, we help to make those technologies sustainable. Because sitting in the seats that I've sat in, Dean, Provost, President, we all know that sometimes we go with a one off and we spend lots of money and say, Okay, we're going to use this software, or we're going to use this and this is going to be our magic bullet, but we don't make it sustainable. We don't make it a sustainable part of our ecosystem. And so it's just becomes an add on, or it just becomes something that is a point of frustration, either for the leadership or for the faculty who are like, how am I, you know, because we don't build the ecosystem to support it. So for example, we say, you know, this, the pandemic was a great example. We're like, Okay, everybody has to now teach online. Now, the institutions that succeeded at that were the institutions, again, like ASU, that had an infrastructure that said, Look, teaching online isn't just about turning your camera on, there is an art to it, and we have a team of instructional designers who are going to help you, right? We have a team of people who have this expertise, and we're going to leverage that. So I think, you know, we're at this moment now where we can, where we have technologies. It's really about building that bridge and figuring out how to harmonize what Higher Ed does really well with what Ed Tech does well. And then figuring out what the sweet spot is to serve the needs of students and the democracy, broadly speaking, workforce being one component of that.

Julian: It's very it's very exciting Pardis, and for sure, the technology does offer all these new tools that we've never had before to make these connections and really begin to bring the people what they're clamoring for. I guess I'm interested to hear a little bit about, well, I love that you're thinking about your practice in terms of, you know, kind of focusing on, you know, the superpowers of each of your partner institutions who can drive this. I mean, you were talking about presidents, Provosts. I mean, where, like, where would you begin? I mean, obviously, coming up as a senior leader, I guess, is the top, but I'm interested to hear you riff on that a little bit.

Pardis: Yeah. I mean, and thanks for allowing me to kind of think into that with you. You know, I think one of the pitfalls that often happens is that these, these initiatives and efforts are often driven by the IT office, right? That the tech office thing, you know, or offices outside of Academic Affairs, and so then it's just seen as a well, that's an IT issue, that's not us or, you know, how do we fit it in? I think where you see the most success is when it's both top down and bottom up, right? And I think it's where you see the most success is where you have leadership that says, Yes, I want to innovate, right? I want to do this, and I want the buy in, you know, from all parts of the house, because if it just becomes one more thing that, you know, a provost has to make the faculty do. I mean, that's not going to work. And if it's just one more thing, we pile on the plate of a faculty, you know, I was that faculty member at one point. You know, when I was at Pomona, at one point, I was chairing two departments, teaching a full load, directing an institute, and I had, you know, three young kids at the time. I mean, it just was not sustainable, right? So you can't and so I think about, you know, the 2016 version of me of Pardis. And I think if my dean or president was like, Okay, well now you have to teach with this technology. I mean, I would have just exploded, right or imploded, but if my dean or my president had come to me and said, you know, we have this offering. We have this team of instructional designers, and actually, you know, for me, the biggest kind of aha moment for me was having gone from being at Pomona, where there was zero online teaching, and I couldn't I was like, Oh my God, that's a huge lift to then actually teaching online at ASU, I suddenly realized, oh my gosh, so much of my time was freed up. I remember I had this semester where I was fully teaching online, right? And, you know, you can be anywhere in the world. So, and, you know, my PhD is in anthropology, I suddenly realized I could be doing field like it actually opened up time, you know. And I, I could be grading, you know, at 10 o'clock at night when my kids went to sleep, or I could be recording, I remember I was recording a lecture at like 11pm when my kids went to sleep. It meant that I could be home with them during the day. You know, it actually opened up more time and possibility. But no one had narrated it to me like that before, you know, when I was at Pomona. And importantly, no one had given me the resources, the scaffolding to support that, right? So I was suddenly much more open to it, because it was supported, and it was somebody, you know, sat with me and, you know, walked me through it, and it actually opened up more time for me. And that was such an aha moment, because for 11 years, I've been a faculty member at a small liberal arts college thinking, holy moly. You know, absolutely not. I could never teach online. That seems like totally out of the realm of possibility. That's just one more thing. And then when I did flip to teaching online, I thought, This is magic. I suddenly have so much more time, right? And it was just kind of getting over that hump. But I think what you can't as a provost, I what I could not expect my faculty, that's, you know, I put on my Provost hat at Montana. As a provost, I could not, I could not, in good faith, go to my faculty and say, Okay, now you all have to teach online without saying. See, here are all the ways we're going to support you. Here's the scaffolding. I think you just have to approach it with intentionality.

Kaitlin: Well, right? And I my brain is going in a lot of directions right now, but you know, I think you're saying so many things that are prompting different thoughts. But I think you know, one thing that just sticks out to me is, you know, it's like with education, with with Ed Tech, there are, there's so much opportunity, but it's also like, what's the unique problem we're trying to solve? Right? And making sure that the technology that you're bringing in is solving the challenge that your students are facing, or that your institution is facing, or that your faculty are facing, because otherwise it can feel, instead of, you know, like an opportunity, as you're saying, it can, it can feel like a burden or an additional, you know, barrier, right, right?

Pardis: And I think at that macro level, I think the problem we're trying to solve is articulating and narrating the value of what we're doing. And I think is, is also, you know, being what education is, which is the great equalizer. And I think now that we know the power of technology in leveling the playing field, right? Yeah, you know it's, it's almost unconscionable for us to not use it like, if there is something that starts to close equity gaps. Why would we stratify them by only allowing certain people and certain institutions access to a technology that we know can enhance learning for, let's say, traditionally underrepresented or historically excluded populations? It's unconscionable for us to turn a blind eye to that.

Julian: Yeah, it sure is. So you're touching on so many critical aspects of what it takes to do this work. And I'm interested to hear Pardis based on your lessons learned. What are practical steps our audience can take to become forces in the future of higher ed?

Pardis: I think a lot of it is, is that kind of deep listening. And, you know, we all know it's out there, right? And I think, I think that there is sometimes, in some cases, been a bit of a stigma from, you know, it's, I'm happy to hear that we talk about workforce development, right? I mean, we've discussed this, but it used to be on the fringes. And it used to be like, if you talk about workforce in a higher ed setting. I mean, that's it. You know, you're, you're you're out of a club. You know, you're canceled, you're out of the club. And yet, you know, that's, if you think about again, the mission of higher ed, why Higher Ed was started. That's such a critical part of it. So, you know, I think that deep listening to what are the demands of workforce, of the democracy, and what are the demands of students? So if we go back to that technology piece, you know, workforce is saying we want students that are fluent in different types of technology. So not only does technology become an equalizing modality of teaching, but it becomes an equalizing currency, if you will, so that students graduate with a skill set that's very much in demand for our society and for our workforce. So back to your very, very good question, Julian, of like, what can be done? I think, I think it's really building those bridges. So building, you know, and I know that that's a lot of the work you all are doing, is building the bridges between higher ed and workforce. And I'm trying to build the bridge between, you know, students demands and higher ed, as well as the bridge between, you know, you've got all these technological solutions and higher ed, right, where it's like, this doesn't have to be so hard. You know, there are ways to actually make things easier. And, and, you know, rather than sitting there and doing, you know, long division by hand, let's start using some calculators here, you know, and, and, you know, figuring out how we can prepare students to meet the needs for workforce, but also how we can meet students needs, you know, how we can actually capture their attention, You know, and and engage them. I would say, I think that deep listening to what, what the demands are, rather than just saying, you know, we have a product. It's tried and tested. 100 years we've been teaching this way. I think we're at a moment where we can do some deeper listening and say, okay, you know what? Maybe we're falling short. And, wow, there's all these solutions out there. How can we live into our mission here of supporting our students while also fulfilling our role to, you know, to uphold the democracy?

Julian: Yeah. And then, I mean, I guess the piece that I spend a lot of time thinking about and trying to build into our own work and consulting is, how do we make sure that that this, that this movement, for this forward movement, isn't just another flash in the pan, fad? Because I do think a lot of times you know these, these things kind of come and go with charismatic leaders or grants. And so how do we, how do we make it stick? And I mean, I think you're getting through the listening, but and through the sort of more holistic and institution-wide approach interested to your thoughts though, that like, how do we make sure this sticks, especially now you're joining the consulting world. How do we as helpers and facilitators leave our colleagues in the institutions with a new way?

Pardis: Yeah, you know, I think first and foremost, the hallmark of a good consultant is that you get in, you set something up, and then you leave and it's running where they're not dependent on any of us. I mean, that's that, to me, is like the hallmark of a good consultant. You come in with an offering. You build that, you know, and I know this is what you all do, too. You, you help to build an ecosystem that runs, as opposed to them suddenly being dependent on you, you know. You say, look, here's some and here's the way to make it sustainable. I think that's so key. So we talk about the deep listening, I think having the commitment to creating a sustainable infrastructure where these that's how you that's how you take it from being a fad, right? So that's how you go from, okay, well, everybody else has VR goggles. I guess we should, you know, it's, I always use the analogy of the climbing wall, where it was like, well, all the other universities had climbing walls, so now we need a climbing wall so students can see it on their tour. Well, like, what's the purpose of that? You got to narrate the value of that, right? I mean, that's a little bit different. But with technology, rather than being like, look, you know, I remember at a certain point, you know, maker spaces was all the rage, right? Everybody had to have a maker space, right? Okay, but how do you build that into the entire ecosystem? How do you build that into classes, you know, with technologies like virtual reality? Again, that's why I admire what Arizona State University did. They said, We're going to take this incredible technology that has this incredible power, and we're not going to start with like the electives that, like a few people take, we're going to go in with Bio 101, and we're going to make it part of Gen Ed, you know? And I think that's the difference. That's what makes something sustainable, because that is then now something that's part, central part of the ecosystem. The worst thing that can be done is, okay, we're going to set up an institute to do that, right? I mean, and we saw that, you know, we've seen waves of that. You know, there was a wave of everybody had a cyber security Institute. There was a wave of everybody had a Human Rights Institute. Everybody had a diversity. This is, that was the narrative around, like a diversity officer. It's like, you can't put all of that on one person or on a an institute. It has to be baked in. You have to empower your diverse I mean, I have so much respect for chief diversity officers because, you know, and the ones where they're super successful are the ones where the President has empowered them to be, you know, transforming the entire ecosystem. You know, one thing Pomona did really well was say, okay, diversity is going to be a strategy, a hiring strategy, but we're also going to bake it into our tenure and promotion processes. So again, it's really about how you kind of bake it into your ecosystem. The worst thing you can do is have it be an add on where you're not supporting it with resources for implementation, and you're not actually articulating how and why it's central to the mission of the institution.

Kaitlin: What's your perspective on the fact that everything in our landscape is moving so quickly? Economic changes are happening so quickly, and something like spinning up, you know, as you said, the theme of spinning up cybersecurity institutes. Well, how do we respond quickly, while also trying to bring a whole institution along with us, right? How do you move quickly to implement these initiatives when you're also trying to, you know, build momentum across, you know, hundreds or 1,000s of faculty and staff.

Pardis: As an anthropologist, you know, we've, I'm sure we've all heard the phrase, you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And I think that there, that there's a, you know, oppressions to that phrase, because I think you begin with culture, and I know we touched on that, but I think in order to be able to be nimble, I think you have to create a culture of nimbleness, you know. And I again, I think that there are institutions Southern New Hampshire is another great example, you know. Another fantastic example is National University, right? You know, you've got these great examples of places where they've really made innovation a part of the culture, and they've made nimbleness a part of the culture. And so, you know, there, I remember when I was at ASU, there was a joke. So people would say, Well, if you don't like an initiative at ASU, just wait 10 minutes and it'll change. And that wasn't necessarily a pejorative thing. It was like, Well, look, we're going to try these things. And what's great is that some of them really work. You know, Dreamscape Learn really worked. Having a school for the future of innovation in society. I mean, when that was stood up, you know, was super forward thinking, it really worked, right? And so actually committing at all levels, and you know, from the top all the way to, you know, every staff member, every faculty member, you know, it becomes a part of the culture. And so I think narrating the importance of nimbleness to your point, in articulating, you know, this is a fast paced environment we're in, you know. And I think actually calling that out, right, it's a fast paced environment we're in, and that can sort of be a little bit jarring coming back though to that anchoring touch point of and the students need us like the students need us to be these anchors and to do right by them. So we need to shift our culture a little bit so that these different strategies can grow and flourish quickly, and we also need to be like it comes back to what I was saying about high tolerance for failure. We need to be okay with an initiative that maybe didn't work, right and to say, You know what, we thought this would be a good idea. It didn't work, we're going to sunset it and we're going to morph it into something else. I think being able to sit with that and be okay with that is also a really important part of the culture.

Kaitlin: So, yeah, I think that that that theme of of baking in these the initiative, kind of regardless of what of, I guess, what you're alluding to, you're regardless of the what the initiative is exactly about, baking it into the strategy, and baking it into kind of the culture of the place and the prioritization of that initiative within this space is is critical, and we really appreciate you calling that out as a key element of you know how we all become forces in the future of this work, whether from a consulting standpoint, or, you know, being a leader or actor in in the future of Higher Ed parties. I'm curious, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

Pardis: Oh, well, thank you for that. You know, reach out. Reach out to me and very you know, very easy to find on social media. Email me. EES Associates. We'll send you our link. This was something we're doing now, particularly a lot of institutions overseas are really asking for our help, because they are, you know, wanting to take bigger risks. You know, as they start to grow. And, you know, I would say, reach out to us any time. I mean, this is something, you know, I'm so passionate about, wanting to figure out ways of serving and making higher ed better. You know, it did require me really stepping down from my leadership role to be able to actually feel like I could live into my purpose, which was to spread the message of, Hey, there. You know, there's a different way of doing things, and we can serve a lot more people if we just allow ourselves to have the conversations, you know, what? Like sometimes we have to sit in the fire of discomfort, like it may be that, yes, it's not the most comfortable first conversation to have, you know, with colleagues to say, Okay, we're gonna try something new. I'm the first to admit that. But there are ways into that. And there are ways into, hey, this could make your life easier while also serving, you know, students in the democracy. And let's face it, we're all here because we want to serve students, because we love our students, and because we love the contribution that we make to society. And so I think the entry point, the intentionality, which would you bring to these difficult conversations and just recognizing calling them out, like, look, I recognize this is not easy, and I recognize higher ed is in a moment of reckoning. So we have a choice. We can lead the pack, and we can lead and be a part of the problem solve, and actually, you know, keep higher ed as as this important bedrock of democracy, or we can kind of, do, you know, a freeze response, of like, there's just too much coming at me, you know? So I'm incredibly passionate about this, because I've seen the problem, I've seen the solutions, and I just want to start building the bridge.

Julian: Well, you're a fantastic messenger. We're so honored and lucky to have you here, and you know, helping you to spread that message and look forward to continuing to look at ways that we can push this forward together. Really thank you so much Pardis.

Pardis: Thank you so much for having me here, and thank you for the great work that you all are doing. It's. It's incredibly inspiring. It's an honor to be here and in conversation with you both.

Kaitlin: I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at Work Forces, dot info or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify. Please subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Bob Lerman, an Institute Fellow at the Urban Institute and leading researcher on and advocate for apprenticeships, discusses the role of apprenticeships in workforce development and economic mobility. He defines apprenticeships as a combination of on-the-job learning and classroom instruction, leading to occupational expertise. Lerman emphasizes the importance of work-based learning and the need for a major effort to promote apprenticeships among employers. He believes that a robust apprenticeship system can significantly contribute to a positive change in the U.S. workforce.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

Welcome back. I'm really looking forward to this conversation today. Julian apprenticeships are becoming increasingly front and center as a pathway to economic mobility in the US, even more so since our springtime discussion with John Colborn from Apprenticeships for America. So it really feels like the right time to take a deeper dive into this topic.

Julian: Yes, I completely agree, and I am particularly excited to get the perspective of today's guest. He's someone I've known for decades who has been beating the drum on the importance of apprenticeship since I met him, and that drumbeat is getting louder by the day.

Kaitlin: It really is. And without further ado, let's introduce our guest, Bob Lehrman. Bob is an Institute Fellow in the Center on Labor, Human Services and Population at Urban Institute, and the leading US researcher on apprenticeship. He's a member of the board of the International Network on Innovation Apprenticeship, head of Urban Institute's Apprenticeship Group, and established the American Institute for Innovative Apprenticeship. Bob has published widely on apprenticeship, currently heads the evaluation of the American Apprenticeship Initiative and is Chairman of the Board of Apprenticeships for America. He is also a Professor of Economics at American University and a Research Fellow at Iza in Bonn, Germany. We really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today, Bob,

Bob Lehrman: Well, thank you for having me.

Julian: Yes, Bob, really appreciate you taking the time and you always, always forget to talk with you. And please tell us about your background and history with the apprenticeship movement.

Bob: I studied youth unemployment when I was in graduate school. My dissertation was on youth unemployment, and I had a long interest in young people entering the workforce, but we always saw that the unemployment rates were pretty high. And later, I worked at the Department of Labor for a few years on welfare reform, but also youth issues. Of course, at the Labor Department, there are a lot of programs that were aimed at young people who were having difficulty in the labor market, but subsequently I came to feel that those programs were really marginal to the overall system. That I co-authored a piece that was part of The Forgotten, Half the idea that a lot of people who don't go and complete a four year degree weren't doing nearly as well, and the government spent so much more on BA level people, so I was looking for some things that would help mainstream young people enter the labor force, and that's when I started learning more about the European systems, especially Germany and Switzerland. That culminated in some work that I did in the late 1980s with an article called The Compelling case for Youth Apprenticeship in 1990 and part of the movement that came about from commissions and research and just a general recognition that we needed a better system to help young people enter careers. We were successful, in a way, because George H.W. Bush proposed the National Youth Apprenticeship Act of 1992 and Bill Clinton liked apprenticeship, who followed him, but the new bill that came out of the Clinton administration barely mentioned apprenticeship. It was called the School-to-Work Opportunities Act, and it really involved very thin interventions for the many instead of intensive and thick interventions for the group I was concerned about, and ultimately that project sort of faded out. There was a sunset provision in the legislation, and it wasn't renewed. But I kept at it because I didn't see a better way than apprenticeship. I will say one other thing, which is, having worked in a factory, I came to believe that… I came to the realization that a lot of what we might call unskilled work, and machine operators didn't have to be unskilled. That the best machine operators were really valuable, and they were far more valuable than just someone who got a few weeks of training. And so I had embedded in me this idea that skill can be applied to all kinds of occupations and mastery is something much more significant than just being able to get through the job.

Kaitlin: That additional context is is very eye opening, right as far as how you come to this work, Bob, and the applied nature of it for you as well. And you know, as you're talking about your background with this work, one thing that sticks out to me is there are so many, there are so many movements in education, and some that are much more long standing than others. And I'm just curious to I'm wondering, as you're providing this background, you know, what has it been like to stick with this, with apprenticeships as this movement for the over the long term and like and you know what has made you really stay with it all these years, and especially now that it's become so front and center?

Bob: Yeah, well, it's, it hasn't been easy. There's not a lot hasn't been a lot of funding for it, but and people used to wonder when in a Washington meeting I would bring up apprenticeship again, I didn't see anything better. And then a few things inspired me to continue to push hard. One was the expansion of apprenticeship in the UK, where they had allowed the program to atrophy and go down to about 150,000 and then within six, seven years, they went up to 800,000 and the Prime Minister would talk about apprenticeship, and it became something on the tube trains that they would advertise for apprentices. And I got to know some of the people involved in that effort, and then some friends in South Carolina started to do better in terms of reaching out to companies. And I went down to see how they did it. And that was inspiring. That was starting in around 2008 or nine through 2013-14, and also I didn't hurt that I was asked to write some chapters here and there, and so that pushed me to do more thinking and to do more writing about apprenticeships.

Kaitlin: Can you please define what we mean by apprenticeships? Because I think there's a lot you know, we hear registered we hear non registered. Can could you spend a little bit of time there just around definition of terms?

Bob: Apprenticeship is a process by which an individual learns both on the job, contributes to production while being on the job, and gains and learns theoretical concepts off the job, all leading to occupational expertise, or at least full competence in a rewarding occupation, in the desirable occupation. So it's this combination of learning by doing actual work and then learning off the job. The actual work is very important and often left out because people say work based learning, but work itself is relevant, and work is what helps an employer recoup some of the benefits. Work is also relevant to learning and doing real work gives people a sense of accomplishment. Let's remember young people when they're very young. They like to do things. They like to make things. They like to get around things. They don't like to just sit and I mean, yes, sitting and reading is good, but in addition to that, they like to do things. And I think by the time a person is 17, 18, 19, having them be in a pure classroom setting for their whole learning process, I think doesn't work for a lot of people. It may work for a minority of people, and God bless them. Let them do that. We don't have to have the same process for everybody. I have a phrase, sameness is not equality. If people learn in different ways, then pushing sameness is going to be disequalizing. Apprenticeship is fundamentally about learning, but learning through practice. Now in the US, we have a system called registered apprenticeship, and state and federal offices of apprenticeship, about half the half the ways of registering are with the federal government. Half the states and in 28 states or so states have offices, state apprenticeship agencies. And organizations, employers, that want to create a registered program have to gain approval. There's some paperwork involved laying out what the occupation is. It has to be called an apprenticeable occupation, which I believe could be almost any occupation. But in the terms of the government, it's an apprenticeship that has already an occupation, that's already been apprenticed in one way or another. Depending on whether you go to a state or the federal government, there's an approval process for a program to be registered. The term sponsor is the group that applies for the registration. And a sponsor might be one employer, several employers could be some outside organization, such as a community college or even a high school, and sometimes it's a joint employer union program. So that's the way the registered system works. But of course, we have a lot of companies doing elaborate training for an occupation that could be called an unregistered apprenticeship.

Julian: So Bob, it sort of feels like everywhere we go in our consulting work and in many of our conversations on this podcast, apprenticeships keep keep coming up. So what's different now?

Bob: What's different is, you're right. People are all talking about it, and there are lots of individual programs, initiatives, states, getting more oriented toward it, and that's a great thing, and that keeps me going. The mission is to scale the system, to make it be a mainstream option for all kinds of young people. And we have a long way to go to get there. Also the federal government increased its investment, but relative to other countries and relative to what we need to do, it's still fairly small from a national perspective. So what's different is, I think people understand it better than we did in the early 1990s. I think there is less pushback about the college for all movement that as college costs have, you know, just spectacularly increased and the union side of it is a little more mixed. I think, in that period, they really felt they owned apprenticeship and were very nervous about letting it widen. It wasn't going to be easy to widen, but anyway, they were concerned about it. Think that is a more mixed picture now. But what's the same is that we still are dwarfed by what I call the academic only approach, and the funding for that academic only approach is massively greater, I'm not looking to get that kind of funding, but a fraction of that, I think, would go a long way, and we still have to achieve that. One thing I do believe, which is quite different, is that people understand w.hy we want to do it. They understand least, much of the understanding is that you want to help young people learn by doing and get into rewarding careers. And that's a change. There are disputes about how to do it, but the why seems to be more widespread, by the way, way back in the late 80s, early 90s. You know, if I talked to a taxi driver and told him what I was doing and saying, some people think it's too early to start. In late high school, he said, Oh, that's too late. He should start. And through those years, people would, you know, informally say to me, yeah, that's a good idea. Keep at it, Bob.

Kaitlin: There are a lot of different threads for us to pull upon from what you just said, Bob, and I think maybe where we can go first is what you're saying about some of the initiatives, where that you're that you're excited about, or where you're seeing promise. We'd love to hear that. You know what? What is showing the most promise, from your standpoint?

Bob: I'm working with state senator Rosapepe of Maryland, who got passed into law the notion that by 2031, 45% of Maryland high school graduates will have done the high school component of a registered apprenticeship. And he's very hands on in looking at, you know, what occupations and how to make apprenticeship a route to those occupations. We're seeing Indiana start a big effort. You know, other states, California said that the governor has a goal of 500,000 and so there's a lot of push toward that. We've also, as I say, learned more. We're learning more from Labor Department projects that have provided funding for intermediaries and others to do apprenticeship. And out of that has come a network of organizations that have gained some experience in what I call the selling and organizing function with employers. So that's going on. And I think, in a way, that effort, although I think we should do things differently. Now, that effort was good in getting things started, getting some organizational expertise, but now the big question will come, can we scale and what do we need to do that, and how to make it, as I say, into a mainstream option.

Julian: Which is a perfect segue to the next thread that I'd like to pull on, which is, well, you know, you alluded to this a bit, a bit you mentioned this earlier, but if you could elaborate about really now, what are the greatest challenges to establishing apprenticeships at scale?

Bob: The challenge, as I say, is how to do it, and I strongly believe that people underestimate the issue of how to get an employer to adopt apprenticeship. That's an investment that the government could help with in a big way. Once an employer starts doing apprenticeship, they start seeing the benefits, not all, and they don't always have openings that apprentices can enter, but if we don't have a major effort to sort of sell and organize that's going to be the biggest barrier. I think once we get employers, the scale of employers on board, you know, like, once they build that, the people will come, I think once the offers are out there, once employers are demanding from school systems to collaborate and saying, If you don't, we'll find another way to do the off-job learning, that's going to continue to drive the outcomes. I think President Biden put out an executive order for the federal government to look into doing more apprenticeships years ago, when I looked at it and did a search on the Office of Personnel Management, a big handbook, the word apprenticeship was mentioned only once, and that was for Labor Department hiring of apprenticeship training representatives. So there have been many efforts to engage with the Office of Personnel Management to do, to do more. Maybe this executive order will help. I think we're trying to get more states interested in using apprenticeship for state employment. I think that should be a somewhat easier lift, but it's still the case that you need to persuade the employers, as I say, they might be public or private employers, and we're seeing lots of shoots around that are starting to bear a little fruit. And I'm still in this business, because I'm gonna do everything I can to help it grow.

Julian: What about challenges at the policy level, particularly nationally, but you're also talking a bit about states, like, how do we get those policymakers to really move beyond the grant funded approach?

Bob: Yeah, that's a great question. It opens up the issue of registered versus unregistered apprenticeships. It happens that in New York there are about the same number of apprentices as in Indiana. What is that telling us that's in terms of registered apprenticeship. That's telling us that the state apprenticeship agency in New York has been traditionally very restrictive. Pennsylvania has also got a pretty restrictive agency. They have all inappropriate criteria for making a program registered. And bear in mind, this is all voluntary. Employers do not have to do apprenticeship. They can actually call anything they do apprenticeship in the UK, apprentice. The word apprenticeship is copyrighted, and the government owns the copyright, so you can't just call anything an apprenticeship, but there are some very good programs that are not registered, and we don't have that many incentives, and we do have some barriers for registration. That's why the we at Apprenticeships for America believe in the role of intermediaries to help the employers start the programs register the programs we'd like to see registration, because, in a way, that's the only way we can have some broad based funding as well, because you do have to have some approval, some test of whether this apprenticeship is a real one if you're going to provide, for example, funding for the off job learning, so that that is a barrier for many companies. And you know, we're hoping that this intermediary approach, where not only can they try to persuade companies, but try to create what we call group sponsors, where the employer only has to sign one page of an employee player acceptance agreement to join a program, and that those can be significant. Again, I would say if, if we, if we had some real funding. And interestingly enough, yesterday, there was a Washington Post editorial promoting a big funding increase in apprenticeship. Talking about apprenticeship. Heather Long of the Post wrote that article, if we got in the range of three to $8 billion which is, you know, a significant increase, but small compared to a lot of other programs. I mean, after all, Job Corps alone is like 1.6 or 7 billion, and the evaluations are not all that positive about it. I think if we can persuade some shifting of funding, some new funding, perhaps that will help drive the city. System and will help promote the program and maybe overcome some of the obstacles.

Kaitlin: So transitioning us a bit based on your lessons learned over you know, more recently and over the years, what are practical steps our audience can take to become forces in the apprenticeship space, especially as it gains momentum, yeah,

Bob: If they're employers and they don't have a program, contact Apprenticeships for America will set you up with some people who can help you start one. You know, I think be supportive of any legislation and of policies that can promote apprenticeship. I like to say that when you asked me about my motivation, I I wasn't giving you the complete answer, because the complete answer, and this may be pie in the sky, but the complete answer is that a really robust apprenticeship system can change America, and it can change America because you will have a lot more people proud of what they do, gain a sense of occupational identity, feel more mature early on in life, which I believe, will have all sorts of side benefits, like enhancing marriages and increasing the marriage rate. Just have a greater sense of belonging, a greater sense of feeling that they're contributing to whatever is being done. There was an old phrase called the community of practice, that they'll feel a part of a community of practice, just like lawyers and doctors do, welders do. We don't recognize it, but they do, and when you get to that level of expertise. It's just a great feeling of competence. Moreover, I think many of them through this process will feel that they're learning how to learn. And we have the system here where, I mean, it's changed a bit in terms of people going back to school, but the mainstream system is you finish high school and then you immediately go into a continuing academic only setting. Some people might want that setting, but later on in life, after they've learned how to learn, and there are many opportunities for that, but these social dimensions, I think, are among the main things that drive me And push me toward doing whatever I can to make America better through this approach.

Julian: I'm so glad you added that point, and it is so key. And I mean, I'm even thinking of intergenerational connections. I mean, like, look, you know, we talk a lot about the silos, the divisions in this country and work brings people together and and also with the just the rapid changes in the workplace, we have to learn by doing. I mean, our books are obsolete today. They're published. I hate to say it.

Bob: Absolutely, and that intergenerational point is quite interesting as well, because again, when you have a parent who has accomplished something in a field, whether their children will go into that same field, they will recognize that, hey, my dad knows a lot of things that I don't know, and I think it's healthy.

Julian: So Bob, as we, as we wrap up our discussion, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

Bob: At Urban Institute, they can Google. Robert Lerman, Urban Institute apprenticeship, and there are a lot of studies that we've done. They can continue to follow apprenticeships for America, those would be the main things. Or if they're really interested, write me, [email protected] and I will try to respond. But I think we have, we have a great network of workforce organizations around the country. You've probably interviewed many of the people in that network, and I think many of them once they learn more, once they learn the benefits that they can demonstrate to companies, they could move in the direction of going for what some people call the gold standard of apprenticeship, rather than a shorter term training program. Nothing wrong with some short term training programs, but apprenticeship is really a full fledged pathway to a rewarding career and and so once they learn that, they can start working with companies. Another thing that people can look at is at Urban we created some a library of apprenticeship programs called apprenticeshipstandard.standards.org, and you can just plug in an occupation and see what programs are out there. And we've been creating quality skill standards for a variety of apprenticeships. So those are some of the ways that people can enter into this wonderful field.

Julian: So, okay Work Forces, people you have no excuse but to become involved with apprenticeships and if all else fails, write, Bob. But thank you so much, Bob. This has really been great. Such a pleasure to talk with you and really, really do appreciate you taking the time.

Bob: Thank you both Kaitlin and Julian, great to see you guys.

Kaitlin: As a brief update to this episode, not long after we recorded our conversation with Bob, he was awarded the Harold W. McGraw, Jr. prize in education, specifically earning the Lifelong Learning prize. We want to extend our congratulations to Bob on this extraordinary accomplishment.

That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We are also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, please subscribe, like and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Sasha Thackaberry Voinovich, President of SkillsWave, an education benefit company, discusses the challenges and opportunities in bridging the gap between educational institutions and the workforce. She emphasizes the need for faster adaptation in curriculum development and teaching methods to meet the evolving demands of the job market. Sasha also highlights the importance of lifelong learning and upskilling, especially in the face of rapid technological advancements.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

Julian; In today's conversation, we circle back to where it all started for us. We met today's guest way back during our time at Southern New Hampshire University. Like so many people who worked at SNHU, as we call it, Sasha Thackaberry Voinovich has applied that experience to build new online learning programs and models.

Kaitlin: Yes, Julian, it's great to see a familiar face on today's podcast, and we're looking forward to learning more about Sasha's latest work and her approach to leading a new enterprise.

In her latest incarnation, Sasha's serving as President of SkillsWave, an education benefit company that recently spun off from D2L. SkillsWave connects employers with education partners to fill skills gaps and develop talent into a competitive advantage. Previously, Sasha held leadership roles in online learning with Pearson, Louisiana State University, Southern New Hampshire University, and Cuyahoga Community College. She's on the Quality Matters board. Has published articles in numerous higher ed publications, and was a co-recipient of the 2013 MOOC award for excellence through the Open Education Consortium, Sasha holds a Bachelor of Fine Arts in dance from the University of Akron and an MAT and PhD in higher education administration from Kent State University. Welcome to the conversation, Sasha.

Sasha Thackaberry Voinovich: Thank you for having me. This is going to be fun. I always I feel like we have a SNHU alumni network, right?

Julian: We really do.

Kaitlin: It does feel that way. It's great to see you today, Sasha, and we're looking forward to diving into this conversation with you. Can you please expanding upon the bio that Julian just talked us through? Can you please tell us a bit more about your background and how you approach your work?

Sasha: I actually, like many of us accidentally ended up in the field of ed tech. So if you go back far enough, I was a K 12 teacher, and then got sort of into curriculum development and then educational technology. I really leaned into instructional design earlier in my career. So I think I approach everything sort of from a backwards design perspective. What is the goal at the end of the day? And then how do we measure the success of that goal? And then what do we need to do to get to that goal? So that's sort of an approach that I've had for a while. I never wanted to be president of anything. I've always wanted to be in a position where I could make change, right? So I've considered myself to be sort of change maker, and it sort of led to this position. I feel like I've been preparing for this position that I didn't know I wanted for a really long time. I've always considered every place you work, you have this opportunity to grow and learn and change things and evolve things. And I think the biggest part of the last decade of my career has been learning how to be a more effective leader, which is actually a very similar skill set to being an educator, if you do it right. And the other thing I've been developing, I would say, and myself, is patience also over the last decade. Dispositionally, that's important for a leader, and it is not something that comes easily to me.

Kaitlin: No, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to learn more about, you know, kind of where you started and what drives you to this point. So thank you.

Julian: Yeah, no, absolutely. And so, Sasha, what are the problems that you've sought to solve at D2L, now at skills wave, and we're particularly interested in the bridging of conversations across educational institutions in the workforce.

Sasha: Yep, and there is definitely a bridge that needs to be, I think, in some cases, even built and then subsequently crossed there has been well, you all, you all know this very well. This isn't a new conversation, right? We've been having this conversation for a really long time about, how do we make sure that educational institutions and training providers really are preparing people for the workforce, for entering the workforce, and for changing careers. I think changing careers can be really, really challenging, and there isn't always an alignment between the timetable that it takes to evolve curriculum or teaching methods and strategies and what the world of work needs, and that change is accelerating more so than ever before. There's also sort of political forces at play and generational differences that have really put a lot of daylight onto the relevancy of higher education, but there's still really compelling data that degrees make a huge difference in the lives of individuals and their families in terms of their ability to change their economic circumstances. I think a lot of folks have been in this space that this needs to be a both and, yet it's been very hard to do that. I think structurally, a lot of educational institutions are not well set up to be able to move fast, but we also know they can move fast if they have to right. Everybody, everybody moved really, really fast when we had a pandemic. So that was encouraging to me. It's been a little less encouraging since then to see that some of the institutions are very, very focused on physical presence, again, because the world of work is not entirely based on physical presence anymore, but this from the skill based perspective, continually learning new skills is absolutely going to be essential for individuals and the competitive advantage for businesses, and they know it, which is why they're really investing in this space. But nobody's cracked the code on how to...how do educational institutions respond faster to the needs of businesses? How do we make sure that individuals learn faster and in different ways and different things, right? AI is not the enemy. It is, even though I do still occasionally fear Skynet. So be no nice to be nice to the robots. But I do think that there is we're gonna have to interact and work with technology very differently, and it is going to require everyone, even those who don't, work in the technology field or technology-adjacent field, it's going to require everybody to have more technological skills than ever before to be successful in non technology jobs.

Kaitlin: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think as we as we go in that direction, Sasha, could you tell us a little bit more about what SkillsWave as a company?

Sasha: What we are is a solution, essentially, for businesses who are looking to upskill their employees and make sure their skills are both relevant and preparing them for what's next. And then we partner with education providers to do that, both higher ed institutions and also training providers and associations. And then what we do is we surface that learning in a really compelling way, creating pathways for learners to make sure that they can get exactly the skills that they need in sort of the format that works for them, right? Because these are all, these are all working learners. Their learning has to fit into their lives. So a lot of obviously asynchronous online learning, a lot of shorter form upskilling that happens, and then we, we focus very deeply on the ROI for the business, right? So are you attracting more growth minded, more skilled workers who are interested in taking advantage of education benefits? Are you retaining those at higher rates? Are you advancing those so what are your internal promotional pathways? Or also that matrix of, are you filling sideways, those skill gaps and harder to hire areas? Because some of, even though, even though the employment market is definitely softening somewhat, the essential skills, piece of this is not. It is hard to find the right skilled people for a lot of jobs right now. It's been, it's been an interesting journey. The thing that was newer to me is I never worked at an educational technology company before, right? And so I've learned so much about the platform and the data structure behind it, which is really fascinating. We use these live APIs to make sure the skills that we're bringing in are really the ones that are needed, are associated with the right careers, aligned to the right courses and certificates and degrees and pathways. So it's been a really exciting journey, and I think what we're doing is really at the forefront. And I believe every company is going to offer education as a benefit, not a reimbursement model, but they're going to, literally, they have to, like companies need to invest in. Learning if they want to have that edge.

Julian: Sasha, what are some of the challenges and successes you're seeing in your work?

Sasha: I would say successes is that everyone is interested in doing this. This is absolutely we are skating to where the puck is going to be. In my mind, that's a that's a double funny, because our company is Canadian, and I know absolutely nothing about hockey, so I would say…

Julian: Give Sasha more money, please, Canadians.

Sasha: Yeah. So we've learned a lot that this is a high demand area. I think it's much harder to do the translation piece right, and also the evolution of what higher education needs to do to have that immediate relevancy for companies, that's that's a deeper challenge. And so we've had great luck in partnering with institutions that are more ready for that evolution have become evolving already, understand the needs of adult learners differently. Are able to support adult learners differently, and you both know this from SNHU, like the importance of that advising for retention and really looking deep at how you support people for whom education is not their primary endeavor, right? Their work and their families are so that's a different level of challenge. And it's, it feels like we have the opportunity to help transform this space which is really exciting. It's scary. Sometimes it's challenging, but it's also super exciting that you get to sort of be part of building the future.

Kaitlin: Absolutely well. And you mentioned Sasha, the, you know, the speed at which everything is moving, one, I mean, from rapid tech advancements to a rapid upskilling needs and you know, and really not even knowing, maybe in some cases, like, what are the skills that our employees are going to need in the next year or two? How do you, how do you think about working within that landscape? Like, what are, you know, do you have any principles that you follow, or, you know, I don't know a framework through which you think about.

Sasha: Oh, wow. I don't think, I don't think I'm quite that advanced there. How 'bout we just call it approaches? I actually think this is where the unique human component comes in. Think this is where there's a certain amount of, you know, skill set, data and keywords associated with data and skills taxonomies. There's a certain amount of that, that is that cannot go and complete that circle, right? I think this is where, in fact, we're learning that we need to work with the technology differently and also the humans differently, because the algorithms and the results of what's coming out of AI are it's only as good as the conversations you before it, during it, after it, how it's implemented, how there's a difference between what's written in the job description that you're pulling the data from, and what the individual actually does on a day to day basis. Because sometimes that changes really, really fast, right? What you call a project manager at a company, if the company is larger, they could have a dozen job descriptions for a project manager, and some of that could be specific domain related knowledge, but there is a certain amount of methodology that you would want to be universal, and how you articulate that and what level of proficiency you need someone to be able to perform at sometimes those are very legitimate conversations that need to happen, and L&D departments are some. Some are incredibly advanced at this. Some just don't have the capacity to do all of it themselves, like they have the skill sets themselves, but they have, you know, a person doing L&D for an entire manufacturing division, right? So sometimes we're capacity building in that, in that respect, but that whole like that, working from a human perspective, I think, has never been more important. And I think a necessary component of that is, what are those durable skills? How do we need to communicate with each other? How do we, how do we work in teams together, in a very different way, where we are more technology supported than ever before. I don't care if, like, you're working in a warehouse, or you're, you know, setting up a construction site, or you're working for a software company, you are using technology differently, and that requires both different skill sets, but moving and learning faster than ever before.

Kaitlin: Yeah, it's that absolutely and it also makes me think about, you know, as we think about when you're talking about, like an L&D leader in a company, you know, how do they also take into account, from an adult learner perspective, all the skills that we all already have, right? Like, one of those other unique elements of working with adult learners is they already have a ton of skills. They're bringing existing domain knowledge and skills to the table, and how do you recognize that or unearth that as part of their lived experience and part of what they draw with them to their next role and build that into their L&D plan? It's just you know, another level of complexity.

Sasha: And How do you even know, right? Like, you know as a manager, you're not sitting there reviewing everyone's resumes who already works there. That's not something right now. And when someone does raise their hand, I still remember this from when I was at SNHU, so I led the course production team there, and, you know, we did a massive implementation of Brightspace. You all remember this? And there was a young lady who was, he hadn't been there very long, and she just came up to me, she raised her hand, she came up to me, and she was like, you know, I have a degree in UX design, and I think there are some things that we could do, you know, to improve the experience in the courses. And I thought, hmm. And this was considered, like, almost a decade ago, right? Like eight, nine years ago, before everyone had UX all over place and experts in that space. And I was like, well, that's interesting. Well, let's see what some options are, right? And then two years later, when I left, we had a mini UX team, and SNHU now has the much, much bigger UX team on the learning side as well, like this is where I would never have known she had that skill set if she hadn't just walked up to me and told me. So how do we surface those experiences for L&D leaders, for managers to make sure that We can, we can fully leverage the talent we even already have, right? I think that's a really good point.

Julian: So Sasha, can you speak to share an example or two of current or recent partners that you think are doing this very well?

Sasha: One of our clients is a rather large retailer, and they actually did a whole analysis of sort of what talent they currently had, what skills were they projecting were going to be needed in the next couple of years, down to what specific positions were they having problems filling now, but were they projecting having more challenges in the future? And then that was all information that they really use to inform their selections of what to put into their marketplace, which is, is our platform essentially provides the ability to register for things based on skill sets or careers and even down to a specific skill that someone wants to develop, and so they very intentionally curated their learning opportunities and even structured their policies in a very intelligent way that enabled people to develop the skills that were most important to them, but also most important overall to the employees. So, you know, the French is a very important part of the culture in Canada, obviously, because of Quebec, but also just in terms of, you know, doing business, it is one of the national languages. And so learning French as a Second Language for people who aren't native French speakers is really important. And that was one of the skill sets they wanted to extend to all employees, even though not in Quebec themselves. So that was something that was really important. I would say that, from the sourcing perspective, another one of our clients had very specific needs in the energy sector, and so that's where we can go to our education partners and say, Hey, what do you have available in this specific space, which is also one of the reasons that we play in in very specific we call them ICPs, ideal customer profiles, and we focus on certain industries, and we intentionally do not do other industries. There are, there are industries, specifically healthcare. There are other companies in this space that really do that. They do that very well. They do that all day long. The market itself doesn't need another player in that space, and it's complex, it's highly regulated. There's clinical sites, all sorts of complications. So we're really leaning into the types of businesses where we're going to be most aligned and most successful, which is, you know, retail energy manufacturing, high tech manufacturing, construction management. There's a lot of. Yes, and interestingly, professional services, for some reason, we have a lot of interest from financial firms, which is sort of just happened organically. But those are, it's like this nexus of supply and demand and motivation all centered around the skills. That's like the skills is sort of the core part. It is the DNA of everything we do.

Kaitlin: Sasha, one question that we like to ask everyone who comes on this podcast, given that it's called workforces, is based on your lessons learned. We'd love to hear practical steps that our audience can take away to become forces in implementing programs or products that are at the intersection of higher ed and industry. So if you have a couple of, like, practical steps, or, you know, things that you would recommend that are tried and true or or emerging for you, that would be great.

Sasha: The first thing would be, look at the data. And I would start with sort of demand based signals in the marketplace. Some of those are very like, are almost data sets you can just grab, like, right, like, you can just grab data from Lightcast or a number of places that follows job data. And then you can, you can also grab data on who is enrolling and what type of program, what programs are being developed at colleges and universities. That data is available. But I think enrollment data is really important, because you have to look at the demand on all sides of this equation. Colleges and universities want to develop programs in certain areas. They may not be looking at all of those demand signals. I know I have interpreted demand signals poorly in the past. So it doesn't necessarily matter what you think about the data. It matters what the data is telling you. You know, the best data wins. Best interpretation of the data wins. And sometimes you get it right, sometimes you don't, so you got to pivot fast. But there, there is definitely a bias towards perception in any field, because developing learning is not cheap, usually not quick and hard to assess. Well, it's even more important that you look at the right data and try to interpret it, and then be willing to pivot if that's not something that that is working, I would say listen to your audience on all sides, is the second thing so that look at the data first, quantitative data always super helpful. But then listen to your audience, and it shouldn't be the people that you surround yourself with day in and day out. It should be people out of your comfort zone, you know, friends of friends of friends in the field, who go farther away from where you are. You need to triangulate data, right? I think in higher ed, on the higher ed side, specifically, we listen to ourself a little bit too much, and we don't listen to employers enough, or we don't believe employers. That's, that's my favorite mistake. Is employers will tell you I need this skill set, and then sometimes, in academia, we're like, but we think you need this skill set. Well, that doesn't exactly work, right? So I would say that's the second thing, is making sure that what you're building is relevant to both groups. And I would say, from a philosophical perspective, it's really important to advocate that those two things are not that the doing what is right for business does not mean not doing what is right for the individual, because part of our job is to make individuals successful across a variety of environments, and we're not doing people any favors if we are not preparing them for what employers need. Because, like, you know, good jobs, what is the most impactful thing we can do for our communities? I would say is good jobs for people. And then the other thing I would say is this is very practical, probably a little less PC, but know how to navigate your environment, because all of these environments are incredibly political in and of themselves. And I don't necessarily mean politics in terms of Republicans, Democrats, though, I guess, in some cases that's also involved. But these are complex environments, within universities, within organizations that have, you know, competing demands and competition for resources and different power structures, different organizational structures, and so to pay attention to those, because no matter what you do, you have to navigate an environment to be successful. And I don't think people always do that intentionally. So this would be, I would say that's. Things in order to really move forward. And if I can remember those three things, it would be, look, look at the data, right? And follow the data, you know, talk to people who aren't necessarily believing the same things you do or aren't in your space, right? And then the third thing I would say is, like politics and power structures, which we don't, we don't necessarily think enough about from a change management perspective, right? If you want to make change in the world, you have to understand where you're starting from, what the levers are, and how you get to different, hopefully better, right? Not just different.

Julian: Well, and you are asking, you know, in so many of these cases, you're asking pretty complex institutions, you know, sort of visual institutions, and the employers to change the way they do things. And that's very political, just in and of itself.

Sasha: It totally can be for sure and for sure, and even departmentally, like departments within the same colleges, within universities. And most colleges and universities have very wide missions, right, with some notable exceptions, but they have missions that incorporate, you know, teaching and like, community involvement, usually some sort of outreach, sometimes serving military students, also research, by the way, also government grants, by the way. You know, it's, it's a lot of priorities to have all at once.

Julian: It really is, and it's, and this is a real challenge and focused kind of work.

Sasha: It is, and it's over time too, right? It's, it's focused work over a period of time. And if we don't build it though, if we don't build it together, it will be built without us, right? If we don't build it together as a community across educational institutions, associations and employers, I do worry that relevance will be lacking.

Julian: So speaking of over time, as we, as we, as we begin to want, not that we're over time, but over time. How can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work over time?

Sasha: Oh, look at that way to set me up. Okay, well, we do have, I work with an amazing team at skills wave, and so we are going to be sort of publishing articles and blogging. I am all over LinkedIn most of the time. I amplify great things other people are doing, and then, and then I would say, just watch to see us grow, because it is sort of the results at the end of the day that are those market signals, but that everybody gets to play in this sandbox, right? Like we all have a part to play in it. So I look forward to learning a lot from the community as well.

Julian: Well. Thank you so much, Sasha for taking the time to talk with us, and you know you've offered all sorts of great insights and takeaways. And we look forward to following your work as the wave unfolds or rolls out or whatever.

Sasha: Yeah, no, I like it. You could surf the wave. You could, you know, ride the wave. There's a lot of different wave related analogies, but thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Kaitlin: Thank you, Sasha, that's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We are also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify. Please subscribe, like and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Brad Turner-Little, President and CEO of the National Association of Workforce Boards (NAWB), shares his vision for NAWB and his commitment to building a workforce system that empowers individuals and strengthens communities. He discusses the challenges and opportunities facing workforce boards in the current landscape, emphasizing the need for innovation, adaptability, and strong leadership. Brad also highlights the importance of collaboration between business, education, and community partners in driving economic vitality and creating pathways to opportunity for all.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Workforces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

Well, Julian, I can't believe we're well on our way with season three.

Julian: I know the season is really flying by and there are so many innovative initiatives and voices to highlight.

Kaitlin: No kidding. And it's amazing to see the themes that are emerging through these conversations. One theme that we're exploring this season and looking forward to discussing further today is really around rethinking and retooling the organizations that drive workforce, education and talent development.

Julian: Yeah, we have a lot to unpack here, and we have just the guests to do it. Today, we're excited to connect with Brad Turner Little, who leads one of the nation's most important workforce development organizations, the National Association of Workforce Boards. Brad is Nob's president and CEO. He's been a strong voice and leader in the field of workforce development and the nonprofit sector. Prior to taking on this role, he honed his expertise and leadership skills in various key positions at Goodwill Industries International and Easterseals, most recently as Vice President of Strategy and Network Experience at Goodwill. Brad graduated Wake Forest University and holds a Master of Divinity degree in Christian Social Ministry from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and resides in Damascus, Maryland. It is great to have you on the pod, Brad, particularly as you're closing in on your first year as head of knob. I feel like we're getting you at kind of a, you know, an important milestone moment. Welcome.

Brad Turner-Little: So go Deeks for my Wake Forest alumni who may be listening. And once a Hornet, always a Hornet, part of the swarm for Damascus High School. If there's anybody by chance that may be connected to Damascus, Maryland, who might be listening as well. So, so.

They'll always be a part of the swarm and go dekes. But it's really, I'm excited to be here. The conversations that you guys have been having via Work Forces, I think are really, really critical. Just very recently, I heard this yesterday, I was in a conversation with Secretary Su at the Department of Labor, where she was talking about the one and a half conversations around the impact of AI and how that's impacting workers and how to not just create safety and security and protections for workers as impacts are evolving, but to think more broadly about the ways that AI and be it generative AI or other more historical artificial intelligence are impacting the way that work happens. And one of the things that I brought up in that conversation is this is to your point, I think, in terms of, Kaitlin, as you were mentioning, the retooling. Right, the retooling of workforce, the retooling of education, those sorts of things, right, is the need for investment in our nation's workforce infrastructure, just like we are investing in the physical infrastructure in that we need to be thinking about how AI and other technologies can transform the way that the public workforce system does its business and not just how job matching occurs and skill matching, but like really think hard about redoing the financial models of the public workforce system to stretch resources further, to better steward them, yes. But there's an opportunity in the moment, I think, to view the nation's public workforce system, local workforce boards, the three, you know, there's nearly 600 state and local workforce boards across the country and all the territories. There's about 3,000 America's job centers that all are sort of branded a little bit different in each state, but to really invest in the backbone of those things so that they can support the evolution of economies that are happening in regions all across the country. As different industries are transforming, that's requiring different skills and competencies for workers. There needs to be an investment in the public workforce system in order to support its ability to effectively serve businesses and all of our neighbors across the country. It's a very timely topic for you guys to be thinking about and having conversations around because there's a retooling sort of theoretical construct. I know Julian, you and I have had conversations about this in the past, right? There's a theoretical esoteric conversation about that. And then there's a very practical conversation about on the ground, what does transformation actually need to entail? What do we need to be investing in? How do we need to think about the execution of supporting businesses and talent coming together in fundamentally different ways that leverage lessons that we're seeing and learning from other parts of the economy into the way we think about preparing workers and connecting workers to career opportunities.

Kaitlin: Yeah, no, we're with you there, Brad. And I think appreciate that introduction. And I think building off of what Julian said regarding your bio, we'd love to hear a little bit more about your background and how you approach your work, especially, like you said, in light of this very complex present state that we all live in.

Brad: I've had the opportunity, Julian and I have known each other for a number of years, I don't think because we're in podcasts. I don't know if ultimately it will be video or not, but Julian and I are both of an age where we've known each other for all of our time.

Julian: Okay, okay.

Brad: But, you know, so my career piece really is sort of all been grounded in and sort of centered on a fundamental belief in the power and dignity of work to transform lives and communities. In the intro you mentioned that I do have a master's of entity degree but it's focused in Christian social ministry and inside that is the important role that economic empowerment and economic freedom plays in the human experience as it relates to dignity and Contribution to community support a family. I think there's a really important element to the human experience to be able to contribute through work. And so I got my career has all been built on how can I think about sort of on the ground and at a systems level, what can we do better tomorrow than we did today that can create better ways for people, for individuals to provide for themselves and their families better tomorrow than they did today? And it's one of the things we talk about now here at NAWB because we don't do direct service delivery, right? We're not helping job seekers and businesses come together in Tulsa, Oklahoma. That's not our role. We serve and support and represent local workforce boards that do that. But it's important that we here at NNAWB ground our work in a commitment that more kids are gonna have dinner on the table tomorrow night than they do tonight. That's what we do this work for. When it all boils down, from overhauling public workforce infrastructure, through to thinking about building certain strategies in our space. You know, we talk about sector strategies and career pathing and all the, you know, and skills first hiring and advancement to transform the way that talent acquisition happens, right? All of that for me personally is grounded in a deep commitment. And I'll say it again, to make sure that more kids have dinner tomorrow night than they do tonight. Because that's really when it hits the ground and that's what it means. You know, I've done lots of different things to support sort of directly in the public workforce system and in partnership with the public workforce system over the course of my career. And it will be September, September 5th will be one year. So it's currently August the 6th. So I have little bit less than a month in this role. And it's been really exciting here. You know the National Association of Workforce Boards will be 50 years old in 2029. And we were founded by a lovely gentleman. I know Julian and I know Bob Knight well. And Kaitlin, I don't know if you have, but I have had the opportunity to meet Bob Knight, but Bob founded this organization nearly 50 years ago with a vision of really advocating for the public workforce system. And over the years, it's been led by wonderful people, most recently by Ron Painter for about 15 years. But as I've come in, we've been working on building on that legacy, but really thinking in new ways about how we can not just represent local workforce boards, but how we can serve, support, and represent. And so we're thinking about how do we build products, how do we deliver services, how do we build relationships that create value for local workforce boards to be able to have the kind of impact that they are deeply committed to in their communities. So we're building new capabilities here to better serve and support. And I would also argue, ultimately, to better represent the interest of the public workforce system with Congress, with the administration, and with other stakeholders. But it's a growth period, it's a transformation period for us here at NAWB, and it's been really exciting. It's been very challenging work, but it's the most fun thing I've ever done in my career. It's over 25 years in workforce development for me, and it's been very rewarding, and I'm excited about our future here.

Julian: It is very exciting, Brad, and they're certainly lucky to have you. I mean, you've been a force in the field for many years since I've known you, and as you know, as we know, the world is changing. And as we've discussed, there's a lot of need for retooling in all aspects of workforce development. This is just this constant theme, I guess. And we try to kind of keep it, you know, keep it where you want it, which is to keep it real and practical. So it's really, it'd be really interesting to hear you describe some of the very specific steps you're taking as you lead NAWB into the future.

Brad: Yeah, so I got, you know, we've really landed on three primary strategies that I wanna talk through a little bit as it relates to how we believe we can, in partnership with our members, better serve, support, and represent them. And then I'm gonna talk about one area that that really hits the ground and that we believe is critical to the evolution of this organization. So the first three things are, number one, we want to really lean in and understand and help advance what moves the needle. And so as a business, as a small business, even though I'm an association, I think it's important to understand, like I'm a small business, right? And I got to think about what my business capabilities are and how do I want to build those things to create value for my customer set, right? And so I need to, we've got to build capabilities to listen hard to what the local workforce board's experiences are, what really drives change and impact, and then find ways to not just understand it and codify it, but spread it across the country, right? After 25 years of system level type work, I've come to the place where the construct of scale, I think, becomes a problem oftentimes in our conversations. Because when I think about scale, like what comes to mind is, like, you know, how do, you know, when Samsung releases a new phone, they think about scale. How much market share can they garner, right? Of all the cell phones that are out there, right? We wanna scale this model. We wanna scale and approach. But there's such, you know, and you guys have known this, right? You've experienced it over the years, like, like the dynamics and the context and the environment and the politics of, I mentioned Tulsa earlier, like they're different than Tallahassee and they're different than Tacoma. I love using T examples because they're strong alliterations there, right? But they are different. But if I think about a concept of spreading things, right? And when you think about the ways that, you know, technologies have and the viralness of trending and X, it used to be Twitter and other sort of platforms, things spread, people get excited about it. They wanna grab onto it and then make it their own and build on it and make it better and things spread over time, right? And I think that because it's human driven. Right, and so I want us to think about how do we as NAWB help spread things across our nation's workforce infrastructure, right? And so that helps us think about what kind of products do we need to be building? How do we build things that are agile and flexible and customizable to make sense, but have some foundational sort of components that are really important to think about? So as an example, right? So as opposed to...Here's the actual, like, take this operating model and move it from Tulsa to Tacoma, right? Here is the guiding conversational framework for players to have, to come to an agreement about a problem or a situation or an opportunity. So the conversational framework can be taken from community to community, but the actual conversation is different. You see the difference there? So it's not telling people this worked in Tulsa, so it's gonna have to work in, I'm gonna switch it up, Buffalo. Because there's a natural resistance to that. So just circumvent the resistance and create an experience that people can have together where they can develop a shared aspiration for their community. Because people act locally and they wanna do things locally on the ground, but they wanna do it together. And so I have found that, you know, as opposed to here's a model, we're gonna move it from space to space. If you can take an approach that allows a community to come together and build out a shared aspiration, they'll figure it out. They'll figure out how to move the needle and they'll get other communities excited about that. And they're gonna wanna know, how did you have that conversation? How did you get there? Well, it began by us having, you know, having a structured experience around these sorts of issues that led us to this place. So I'm super excited about sort of part one. Part two is we need to be deeply committed to helping our system skate to where the puck is going. Right, in the words of the great Wayne Gretzky, although I probably butchered his quote. But that's another thing too, is that our system, you know, I mean, yes, we've, you know, the amount of federal investment in the public welfare system has, you know, has gone down annually for, you know, years. So we, I mean, that's probably part of our reality moving forward, which means we have to get more creative. We have to be more innovative with how we do the business. And I started off with thinking about, you know, my comments to the Acting Secretary. We've got to invest in experimentation around how boards operate. And I think that's really, really critical that we at NAWB, we have a unique view, right? We sit at a balcony level. We're not at the orchestra level. We can sort of see things a little differently. And I think it's our responsibility to sort of gaze out over the horizon and sort of identify things that can be, that we need to experiment in to help boards better achieve their missions on the ground in communities, local workforce boards to really be able to do that as they bring business and talent together. So there's the operational piece. There's also things like, you know, we're really involved in the skills first hiring and advancement, you know, sort of work that I know many, you know, National Governors Association, Walmart, Foundation, lots of different groups are kind of in this space around thinking about what does it mean to fundamentally transform how a job seeker communicates with the value they can create for a business and how the business understands what are the actual competencies that we need to do a certain job. And oftentimes, a degree requirement is a false equivalency to competency needed to do work. But there's so much more than just that part of skills, you know, skills, skills first agenda. So anyway, I think, you know, but that's on the horizon. So we need to be in that conversation and in that space. And then lastly, you know, I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I do think it's really important that that we that we at NAWB align with and engage with people, corporations, partners, whatever it may be, that where we can really discern a shared aspiration around economic vitality in communities, right? That benefits business and all of our neighbors alike. Right, so I think those, so, and that influences like how we wanna approach, you know, the relationships that we're in and what are we trying to achieve, right? And ultimately, if this is about having a thriving local economy, I think we can also rally around that because that's going to create more opportunities for people. And ultimately, that's going to mean more kids are going to have dinner tomorrow night than they do tonight. And so, you know, let's think creatively about how we do that. So anyway, those are kind of the big three pillars of our focus as we build and as we evolve as an organization. Absolutely retaining sort of our engagements around the representation part for workforce boards. In this particular moment in time, Congress is considering the reauthorization of the federal legislation that sort of sits on top of this whole system called the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act. There's appropriations discussions going on. So we're deeply involved in those pieces, but we believe that there's so much more we can be doing to support boards. And that's really those first three pieces. The other thing that I wanted, and where this begins to really come together for me, Kaitlin, is in our deep commitment to helping build and equip leaders in the public workforce system. So local executive directors, local CEOs of workforce boards and the Boards themselves, sort of equipping them and building competencies and skills that really align with the kind of leader you need in the overall economy, right? One that is certainly able to execute from complying with regulatory frameworks or expectations in law, but really has competencies in the space of understanding how to navigate change, how to think differently about agility within an organization, and how to do organizational development that builds trust within the team, right? Because ultimately, the competency sets and the skills that we're gonna need 10 years from now, like that's really hard to project. There's gonna be technologies that don't exist or whatever, but I can guarantee you that, you know, one thing that will be needed in the workplace 10 years from now is trust. So how do we build trust with one another within teams and how do we help leaders within the workforce system build those kinds of competencies to do community engagement, to think strategically to lean into vision crafting and aspiration development and then build strategy in those spaces, right? So, you know, we're thinking hard and working with our members to understand from a professional development perspective, what does the executive director of the future look like and how do we build them, right? How do we prepare people for that and build the right competencies for leaders in communities that are responsible for stewarding our nation's public system. So, you know, we've got some big things that are on the docket, but, you know, it's a, we need to. The public workforce system deserves us taking on big things because they do big, important work every single day. And we need to support them and serve them and represent them in new and value add ways. And so this is what we're working on here at NAWB.

Kaitlin: Brad, I think you began to touch upon both a challenge and an opportunity that you're seeing right around leadership roles and what does it look like, what are the skills that are needed as we think about the future of leading workforce development initiatives and models. Curious to hear a little bit more about what are some of the other challenges and successes that you're seeing in your work, especially, you know, as you're about to reach that one year point at NAWB, you know, we see, you know, different potential challenges like being, you know, resistance and regulatory considerations. But I mean, would love to hear more about what you're seeing both on the challenge side, but also, you know, what do you think is working?

Brad: You know, from where I sit, you know, as the new leader of this organization, and we're not that large, I mean, we're 10, 12 people, we're not a big organization, but you know, when I think about sort of what a local workforce board sort of leaders experience is and some of the challenges they're facing, certainly the resource question is a big one. You know, we know that in our world, we owe funding, you know, has gone down on the appropriations process for decades. And as a result, because, you know, when you do see those great examples, I think of the sort of how to lean into opportunity. It's about 60% of local workforce boards now have spun off outside of government to create their own nonprofit. And what that does is, amongst a variety of things, it creates an ability to access capital beyond government funding so that you can actually break things, weave investment from philanthropy, other government funding, foundation investment, those kind of, programmatic investments. Like you can think about capital in a different way. And so I think, you know, we've seen Boards, we've seen executive directors go on that journey that the payoff is being able to have greater flexibility and access to more capital, to be able to respond to business need and job seeker, career builder need in community. So I think that, you know, that's a great example of kind of there is innovation happening in the network. It doesn't sound like that's like, that's not a big thing to think about going from being a government into a nonprofit, but it's actually a pretty big thing. Because it's responsive to how, you know, trying to think about how does, as a local leader, how do I create access to more resources and how do I create agility within my own organization to be able to be responsive to me? So I think that's an interesting example of kind of both the challenge and the responding response to flipping it and seeing it as an opportunity to think differently.

Kaitlin: Well, and it sounds like that's something that's like spreadable, right? Like maybe not seeable, but spreadable, as you said earlier in your different chain.

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And there are some instances where that's not, you know, that's not practical. Doesn't make sense, but a lot of places it does. And I think there's some clearly momentum behind that. And we've actually got some product coming out soon that will be, that sort of reflects those experiences of boards that have gone through that process that can help boards ask better questions as they're considering it, right? So that's one piece. Another piece gets to our reality that inside, and you mentioned a little bit some of the challenges from compliance and regulation and those sorts of things, but there's also a bigger reality that I think many of us as leaders sort of are trying to navigate, right? Which is the, what I bring and what my team brings to work with them every day, in terms of their experience of the world around them and a growing sense of frustration, a growing sense of divisiveness, a growing sense of brokenness, just in the systems and a disbelief and an inability to trust that tomorrow is gonna be better than today, right? People feel that. The military had come up with the VUCA environment, right? Several years ago, to be able to understand our post-Cold War navigation, right? Now, change management experts tell us we've moved past VUCA, now we're in Bonnie, right? And in the beginning, part of Bonnie is a sense of brokenness, of fracturedness. How do we as leaders lead teams who are bringing that with them every day? And so it requires us as leaders to think about how am I building trust? How am I thinking about empathy? How am I thinking about alignment? How am I thinking about creating safety and security in the workplace in very different types of ways that then the leaders have had to in the past on top of, right, on top of the state's coming in to do a compliance review, or the Feds are coming to do, you know, so you have those requirements of the business expectations, right? But there's also, you're doing it in a context, and you're supporting businesses and job seekers that are inside an economy which is so rapidly transforming, where we talked about a little bit earlier, where competency sets are gonna be needed three years from now. We have no idea what those are going to be because technology is changing so quickly. So how do you build systems which can absorb that rate of change and supports for people and businesses alike that can absorb that and can create value in those sort of contexts? Those are massive changes and challenges for leaders. I think there are lessons out there that we can learn from the private sector. I think there are lessons out there that we can learn from other associations that can be informative for Work for Sports who are in that context, and for leaders in that context who are trying to understand, how do I help this organization achieve the impact it should and the mission that it's challenged with? Because it's critical work, right? Bringing business and talent together to create economic vitality is critical. And yet, there's so many sort of environmental pressures pushing on it and pushing on them. It can be really discouraging. It can be really disheartening, particularly when, you know, we sort of joke, right? It's really hard to explain what a workforce board is. And you get lost kind of in the detail of that. And then...And it's because it's not an understood sort of thing that can oftentimes feel like it's undervalued because it's hard to explain. And then it gets under resourced because it's undervalued and it can be really disheartening. And so I think it's also really important that we at NAWB as part of that representation charge is that like we communicate this work matters, right? There are people who are leaving time behind bars today that are going to one of those America's Job Centers across the country and are finding opportunity and are gonna be able to reunite with their family and provide for them in the way that they want because of America's Job Centers, because of local workforce boards. There are youth who have dropped out of school. There are 18-year-olds who have dropped out of school who are involved in programs operated by local workforce boards that are gonna see a path, are gonna find hope, right? There are older workers who are gonna be able to reconnect with the workforce and provide for themselves in ways that they haven't thought of before because of workforce boards. Like their work matters and it makes a difference. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that and to lean into it.

Julian: We like to ask the people we talk with on the show about practical steps folks can take and you really have touched on many for the workforce system. Our audience includes, you know, not just the workforce leaders, the workforce board leaders, but also all the other constituents, the employers, the post-secondary, the educators, the other community groups that need to work with them. Any, any words of wisdom with regard to practical steps, sort of the broader, cause you know, this is, it's going to take a village to do this clearly.

Brad: Right. Well, I think, well, I mean, both you and I know, Julian, that at its best, right, the public workforce system is actually, it represents the table where every one of the, the, the, the stakeholder, the members, your audience members, be they from the business community, from the education community, from the other government program community, community-based organizations, like the workforce board table is the table to come together. And that's actually the charge of a local workforce board is to bring those entities together in a community and understand what's happening in a local economy, understand the competencies that are needed to drive that local economy, understand how to build those competencies that are needed to drive a local economy, and then help bridge people in that local area to the competency building opportunities to really to lean into the jobs that are in that local economy, right? So, the most practical thing I could suggest, Julian, is that if your audience members are not connected to your local workforce board, call them. So you can find information about how to get in touch with your local workforce board at nawb.org. The Department of Labor at the federal level has a wonderful website, careeronestop.org, that you can go to, plug in your zip code, and you will find who's like...who the local workforce board is with contact information and make a phone call and say, hey, I wanna get connected, I wanna get involved. I think that at the most fundamental practical level, it's step up and engage in the building of the plan to drive economic vitality in your community. To me, that is a very practical, low risk step that folks can take that are in your audience today. So that's one. Two, I do think for folks who are in your audience that are listening in, that are from the business community or from the education community, one of the things that I have experienced and I've seen be so powerful is when community leaders sort of go through that dedicated sort of cohort experience, I'm sort of stepping aside from participating in the workforce board. But when you see programs like leadership, whatever, where you pick a city or pick a county, you know, you've got the leadership program. But going through those programs together and building strategy together, sort of setting aside sort of ego turf, brand build, whatever it is, for the betterment of the community is one of those places where I've seen real transformation happen across the country. Number three, though, would be, and this is a little bit about kind of the initial conversation that I talked about recently at the Department of Labor around sort of worker voice and those kinds of things, but I've also, when real transformation happens and people find hope in community, either for the growth of their business or hope for their family, is when they turn outward. And this is a phrase that I've learned from the great work that the Harwood Institute does, Rich Harwood and the Harwood Institute for Public Innovation, where decisions are made not in the boardroom, but in the community with trust and experience and the betterment of the other versus the sustaining of a system. So when you're able to not just incorporate different voices or perspectives in a big plan, but create a context in which people are, whether it's a business and a community college, a chancellor of the workforce development program, where they're given the ability to try small things. I'm a big believer, Julian, in the Pebble Theory of Change. Big believer in the Pebble Theory. I've yet to see a big, except for the New Deal, but a big macro level plan. There's so much inertia in systems. There's so much inertia. It's so hard to move those things. And oftentimes people get forgotten, and people of color, people with disabilities, women. You know, they're LGBTQ, people get left out, small business, rural community, like, you know, in those spaces, right? But the Pebble Theory of Change is that people get so sort of, I don't wanna say fed up, but the level of frustration with the current circumstance, you're willing to do this, work with somebody to do this one small thing, to see if change is possible. And that invites another two or three people, this is like the old, the double mint commercial, whatever, you know, tell people, they come through people, right? But the pebble theory is that these little small pebbles thrown into the pond, you throw enough of them in, and you throw them in a frequency where there's more and more and more, and I know your listeners can't see me, but my hand is throwing the pebbles in more quickly and more quickly, right? Then suddenly all those little ripples add up to a big wave of transformation. Right? And they're all headed generally in the same direction. Right? And there's, that's when I think real power happens. So that would be the third thing. Real practical. Just do a small thing, a small thing, set up an internship for four kids to see how your business operates with your school system. Right? You don't have to launch a full-grown apprenticeship strategy though that would be lovely. But like set up a small apprenticeship where four kids get to come in, right? Um, you know, open the invite, you know, we're getting ready in the summertime, but next summer, right? Talk with your, your, your local education agency, whoever your school system is there, right? And say, Hey, listen, I want to invite, you know, I want to invite four or five teachers in to see my business in operation for two or three weeks so they can see it in operation and they can understand like they're preparing kids to go into the world of work. What that actually means, right? And that is not saying that teaching is not work. I have deep, deep respect, married into, and have had deep appreciation for teachers and in our public education system. But give some exposure there. I think those are really practical, easy things to do. Low risk, things that can be done to help understand, build an understanding and build an aspiration within your community for what do we want? What do we want for our kids? What do we want for our seniors? What do we want for all of our neighbors? You know, and I think there can be real power in that and they don't have to be, and it doesn't have to be a big, huge, macro level plan. It's then just trying small things together and building trust and building momentum. Those are things that I think would be the three things that I would say.

Kaitlin: Well, thank you for those steps, Brad. They are incredibly practical and I think there is something, there's so much to be said for thinking about starting small because that's often how the big things do eventually happen, right? So really appreciate your thoughts and insights there and learning so much more about NAWB today. Please listen in to Workforce Central as well. And I guess I would ask you as we close out today's conversation, Brad, are there any other ways that our listeners can continue to learn more about NAWB's work and follow what you're doing?

Brad: Yeah, I mean, you can certainly visit our website, which is NAWB.org. I will tell you that it is, I mean, I don't know how evergreen our podcast will be, but this is the fall of 2024 and we're going through our website reboot. So it'll look a little bit different later this fall. But you can sign up for newsletters, sign up to be part of our advocacy work, sign up to be, you know, so you can get information about our nation's workforce system and sort of learn more in that way. And you can get connected to your local workforce system, which at the end of the day, Kaitlin, I mean, I love it when people sort of click on stuff and sign up for our newsletters, but actually what moves the needle is when they get connected locally and they get involved. I'd much rather have that than, you know, a big email list on my side. I'd much rather have all those folks connected to their local workforce boards and really leaning in together.

Kaitlin: Great, well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today, Brad. And we appreciate the insights and learning more about the direction that you're taking in NAWB, it's super exciting and we look forward to continuing to watch it all unfold.

Julian: Just to echo Kaitlin, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to hear about your plans. I love the grounded grassroots nature. It really is about doing stuff and...I do think the boards are so much more of a switching point for everything you're describing than people realize and can be more and more so, and certainly under your leadership will be for sure.

Brad: Thanks, y'all. I've enjoyed the time today. Thank you for inviting me to be a part of your conversations as part of Work Forces. And I will also look forward to hearing sort of your future versions of this conversation with other folks. Thank you so much.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at Workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon, and Spotify. Please subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Kristen Fox, CEO of the Business-Higher Education Forum (BHEF), joins Work Forces to delve into the critical intersection of business and higher education. With extensive experience in education, digital learning, and workforce development, Kristen brings a contemporary lens to BHEF's mission of creating inclusive solutions for talent challenges. In this episode, Kristen shares BHEF's strategic focus areas, including illuminating skill gaps, developing new work-based learning models, and convening action-oriented forums. She also emphasizes the importance of strong leadership, clear signaling mechanisms, and effective intermediaries in fostering successful cross-sector collaboration. Kristen shares valuable insights into the practical steps needed to bridge the gap between education and employment and create a more inclusive and agile talent pipeline, ultimately connecting learners in the higher education ecosystem to opportunity and sharing what's working to achieve greater impact together.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

We're excited to kick off today's conversation by welcoming Kristen Fox, CEO of the Business-Higher Education Forum, or BHEF, to the podcast. It feels like conversations at the intersection of business and higher ed are more critical than ever, especially as we think about the future of work and learning.

Julian: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Kaitlin. The world is changing so rapidly. And Kristen brings us a contemporary lens on what works. And I'm looking forward to hearing how she's applying this lens to the BHEF, which has been around since the late seventies, I believe.

Kaitlin: Yeah, same here, Julian. To provide a bit of background, the Business-Higher Education Forum is a national nonprofit that brings together business and higher education leaders to create inclusive solutions for talent challenges. In Kristen's role as CEO, she brings 20 years of leadership experience working at the intersection of education, digital learning, and workforce development. Kristen has advised foundations, institutions, and companies on the design and implementation of successful strategies that drive impact, growth, and sustainability. She's also published research on the impact of digital learning and AI in higher ed, and prior to her role at BHEF, Kristen held leadership positions at Titan Partners, Northeastern University, and Edge Adventures. She holds a BA in International Relations and Chinese from Colgate University and an MA in International Affairs and Economic Development from the School of Global Policy and Strategy at the University of California, San Diego. Thank you for joining us on the podcast today, Kristen.

Kristen Fox: Thank you for having me. It's great to be with both of you.

Julian: It's great to be with you as well, Kristen. So to kick us off, if you would, please tell us more about your background and how you approach your work at BHEF.

Kristen: So as you mentioned a little bit in your intro, I've spent the last 20 years or so working across the higher education sector. And I'll give a little bit more detail around that because I think it's important to the lens that I bring and part of the things that I'm excited about and think are so important about the work that we're doing at the Business-Higher Education Forum. But I worked in three kinds of types of roles. So in consulting or advisory roles, in leadership roles at an institution, and at membership types of organizations, all focused on issues related to workforce development, digital learning, innovation, student success, and equity. And in consulting in those roles, I had the opportunity to really get on hundreds of campuses, both two-year and four-year institutions over a long period of time across many different states and regions, and to work with different regional and sector business leaders through that lens as well, and also to work at philanthropies as they've considered impact and scale across the space, as well as at tech firms and organizations as well. That's given me a really powerful 360 degree view of the shared challenges and effective and ineffective solutions that leaders, faculty, and staff are really grappling with and behind closed doors. And one of my key takeaways there has been there's always a unique local flavor, right? So labor market challenges, to institutional strategies, et cetera. But there's a lot more commonality there than difference in terms of what we're trying to solve for. In addition, I've also had the opportunity to work at an institution, Northeastern University, with a significant focus on workforce alignment and experiential learning. And some of my efforts there were really focused on leading innovation related to making the traditional, really strong and effective co-op experiential learning model more accessible through something we launched called the Experiential Network, which is now more project-based learning online, connecting part-time learners, non-traditional or the new majority learner to different types of opportunities, for example. And then in addition, I did that with faculty, with advisors, and really working to support systemic change throughout the institution, really giving me a sense of, you know, how you work collaboratively in traditional institutions to more agilely align to workforce, to drive innovation, and to also engage employers effectively throughout the process. And so, you know, that experience of working to drive change within an institution has also been really powerful, right, in understanding some of the different dynamics that both can support or prevent change and innovation. And then early in my career, I worked in an organization that developed a pretty unique membership model approach that brought together institutions for shared learning and best practices. So, you know, really got a sense as to how that can be powerful and transformational in leading sector change. And I would also say that early in my career, I had the opportunity to teach undergraduate courses at the UC system and that gave me a real appreciation for just the diversity of experiences that different students are bringing to that first year experience and also you know really the ability to see on the front lines as to where we as a higher ed sector were meeting their needs well and and where we are not. All of those different experiences and a real focus and passion for economic development, workforce development led me to believe that a platform that is collaborative and that is national like the Business-Higher Education Forum is really important because it's an opportunity to focus on and catalyze impact on one of the most important issues of our time–better and closer collaboration between businesses and education, to support economic mobility, economic growth, to build those more inclusive, effective, and affordable pathways that we seek to be built. And I'm really honored to be working with leaders across business and institutions that are doing that. So what that leads me to bring to our work, right, is that focus on collaborative models, proven approaches to support change, and understanding of and how to translate across the business and higher ed sector. One brief experience I had that's helpful oftentimes there is working in the state department as a diplomat, right? One of the things that you will find that, right, can hamper, I think, and we hear this frequently, collaboration between the business sector and the higher ed sector–it's just the translation, right? Even something as simple as skills and learning outcomes, right? It's a different language and a different vernacular. And so we play a really important role there in the translation. So those are some of the things about me that I bring to our work. And then I look forward to telling you more about some of the work that I'm excited about that we're doing at the Business-Higher Education Forum.

Kaitlin: Great. Well, thank you so much for sharing more about your background, Kristen. And really appreciate the description of how you have this 360 degree view on this work. And so much of what you said rings true to me, especially that translation of really just, right, sometimes it's just definition of terms across higher ed and business and how it is that when we use these terms, what do we mean by them? So we're looking forward to diving in with you in this conversation. Recognizing that you've taken on your role at BHEF relatively recently, we're curious to learn more about the strategy you're putting in place as you work at the nexus of business and higher ed at BHEF?

Kristen: I started in February of 2024, so just about at the six month mark. So definitely excited to share with you some of the work we're putting in motion while also continuing to make sure that we evolve agilely our work in ways that are responsive to the needs of the market, et cetera. Yes, so I mean, I left a great role and incredible colleagues at a boutique strategy consulting firm that I was at before because I again, I think that the mission and platform and work that our board of directors and our network and partners and team at the Business-Higher Education Forum are working on are the most important issues of our time. There's, as you know, what we are positioned to do is again, build those bridges and points of collaboration and points of partnership. Deep, sustained partnership between higher education and business. And so a couple of things that we're thinking about are obviously, there are huge transformations happening across our economy. Emerging technologies are accelerating those, and we continue to see significant shortages in key occupations, like cyber, advanced manufacturing, green jobs, and STEM. And those are roles that are really critical to the security and economic growth of our country as well as the economic mobility and opportunities of individuals. In addition, as you all know, the kind of half-life on skills is shortening. And so, one recent estimate from IBM is that 40% of the workforce will need to re-skill due to these disruptions in the next three years. I've seen estimates even more than that. But so, there's a real imperative to make sure that number one we as a sector are aligning talent supply and demand, so that both at an occupational level, as well as from a skills alignment level and acknowledging that that's a lifelong process. And we also believe, and I also believe, that higher education needs to and is a critical talent engine for economic development and can be a talent partner of choice for business. And so one of the things that's core to our work and mission is that we create spaces for higher education and business leaders to co-create and experiment with building those more inclusive, agile, and effective paradigms that enable us to recruit, develop, and connect talent to opportunity across those areas. A few of the things that we're really doubling down on to address those issues and that build on our history and legacy but refashion us for a new era. So for context, you know, and Kaitlin, you shared this at the outset, the Business-Higher Education Forum has operated as a national nonprofit organization that's comprised of really committed leaders from major corporations, as well as presidents and chancellors and their teams of innovative, agile colleges and universities, so inclusive of two-year and four-year institutions across the country. Those leaders have opted in to studying, co-designing, piloting, and building new pathways that close those critical talent gaps and emerging and in-demand skill areas. Some of the strategic areas of focus that we are either recommitting to or pursuing that are a little bit different than in the past, I'll walk you through. But we're committed as ever to our why of building those stronger pathways between education and employment. We are not a think tank or a research house. We do put out research and some insights and we put out toolkits. You can find some of those on our website. There's a lot of great, really well done reports and research assets there. But most importantly, we are working to catalyze and test, refine, and replicate what works in the field. So there's kind of four things that we're really focused on there and doing for our network, and then sharing also more broadly with the field at large. First, we continue to do work that we've done historically, both individually and with our partners, around illuminating and shining a light on those places where we need to close skill gaps. We've done and continue to do a significant amount of work looking at how AI is impacting the workforce, green jobs and skills, and you can find actually several blogs, etc. on that on our website to see more of what we're working on there. The second and a really major piece that we're also focused on is the development of new models. So as I said before, prototyping, implementing and scaling solutions that bridge learning and work. Two places there that I'll mention as examples: we're spending a lot of time right now focused on new work-based learning models. We're going to be coming out and releasing in September a national survey of over 2,500 employers, and focus groups around how to design work-based learning and scale work-based learning in ways that increase supply because it's responsive to employer needs in addition to being a high quality experience for the learner. We know how important internships are. We can talk more about that later in our conversation. But because of that, that's a place that we're really committed to not only sharing research around design and design models that can increase scale, but also supporting and being a part of the sets of solutions that enable institutions and employers to more effectively implement work-based learning models. We also continue to look at and help on the institution side in particular, think about how do you design and how do you implement more effective models for employer engagement. We know that's a real area of challenge in terms of higher ed really asking and how do we more effectively engage with employers and what does that look like? And then last but not least, a key piece of what we continue to do is convening and bringing together an action oriented forums leaders so that we can catalyze, we can sense make and then catalyze change and really sharing that with the field. And I think that's something that's a little bit different than you'll see in the past. We've launched a blog. We're really working to, you know, get out the work and insights that our team has been learning from 45 years of facilitating effective partnership, and making sure those best practices and solutions are out there. The last thing I'll say is there's three ways that we work and that we're committed to. One is around a membership network so institutions and businesses can work with us as part of an annual collaboration where we develop an annual research and impact agenda, have frequent virtual round tables and emerging topics and just really allow for peer to peer executive and team learning. And then secondly, we have a solutions lab where we build on our strong track record of working across our network and partners to do things like implement regional initiatives, cross-sector pilots, and to really work to again implement in the field. And we work with many philanthropic partners there as well in terms of implementing, again, regional initiatives and bringing together business and higher ed leaders to solve for talent gaps. And I can give you more examples as we talk today. The last thing I would just say that I think is important as we move forward, is we're really focused on expanding and growing our network of innovators. Historically, the forum had some convenings that were a little bit more exclusive and our philosophy and board has really taken the approach that to have the impact on the student experience and on the economy that we want to, we need to have a thriving and growing network of innovators. In addition to our incredibly strong board and leadership of Fortune 100, Fortune 500, and large public and private institutions, we also are continuing to expand our partnerships with the community college sector, for example, with regional public colleges, as well as with other corporate leaders. And for example, we've just named some new board members that represent those sectors and allow us to better serve their needs. Those are some of the things that we're really focused on. And I'm really excited about the work that our team continues to do. We've got an incredibly, we have a small but diverse team that includes experience from the Department of Commerce from workforce development boards, from working at institutions, from working in HR and talent roles. And so really have experienced both in building community, advising the stakeholders that we work with and having walked in their shoes. So really excited about the work that we continue to do and the opportunities to foster collaboration and impact across the business and higher education sectors because we know how important it is.

Julian: Well, it sounds like you've really hit the ground running, Kristen, in the first six months, so congrats. It's amazing. You sound like you've been there for six years, maybe. But I'd like to dig a little bit deeper in terms of the modeling. One of the things we like to do on Work Force is people want specifics. They want to know what are examples and how to do it. And so we'd love to hear a little bit more. You've talked some, but about what learning models do you feel are working well as you look across business and higher ed partnerships? And then as well, you mentioned, for example, the language issue, which keeps coming up again and again with us. It's like so much of this is about language. And what do you see as challenges? So let's work in challenges, examples, please.

Kristen: So I'm really encouraged at what I see around the role of, you know, in regions, business and higher ed working together to address talent gaps and mobilize, right, by whether it be state or fed record federal investments, and in certain cases, philanthropic investments as well to, you know, seed and scale work. So I think that, you know, place-based focus on solving specific regional economic development challenges is important. And there are a few examples of effective approaches that we've been working a part of that I'd be happy to share. And what I see as being some of the key ingredients around them. So a couple of things that I would say, so we've been doing, for example, our team in the state of Connecticut, working pretty expansively with the office of the governor's office, working with the business sector leadership, so really strong business sector leadership out of you know organizations that include but are not limited to. Accenture, Stanley Black and Decker, also working side by side with the and representing the broader business community. Also working side by side with the higher education community, the independent colleges and leadership in the state as well as the public colleges in the state, in the system, and the individual institutions. That was brought together, again, by strong higher ed leadership and business leadership coming together saying, number one, we as a state have significant workforce shortages and key talent areas that are critical to our economic growth, and we also are one of the most, the states with the highest levels of economic inequality in terms of the income variation and ranges. So we need to mobilize together to do something about that, right? So strong leadership, right, is a key ingredient when it comes to cross sector collaboration. And that's one example from this, that's one takeaway from this Connecticut example that I think transcends. Secondly, I think another important thing that's really important that we see as what's working and what can drive success is then clear signaling mechanisms and the use of data. So in this case and in the case of other effective cross-sector partnerships that we see, it is then the use of data to hone in, so labor market data in terms of what is it, right, that it's being expressed by the employer community. What is it, where do we have gaps, as well as then what those supply side avenues look like. And when I say supply side, I mean the traditional higher education credentials in terms of the associate's degree, the bachelor's degree, as well as the certificates and the industry embedded credentials that might be a part of that pathway as well. So really, looking at that data together, getting us a sense of those supply and demand gaps, those KSAs, et cetera, but then also acknowledging that there are emerging skills and dialogue that needs to happen around those skills that's critical as well. And ensuring that that's being updated, et cetera. And again, that's something that in the case of this example of the tech talent accelerator in Connecticut, all focused then on many tech roles that got pretty specific around what the workforce needs and then enabled the application of different credential pathways across the ecosystem to meet that needs, right? Building on what institutions had what capabilities, et cetera, based on, again, executive leadership, clear signaling mechanisms. And then last but not least, there's a really important role in making that all happen in a way that is highly collaborative, right? Around project management, around sustaining long-term partnerships, and around providing capacity and support for that. So there's an important role of then intermediaries that are convening the different groups that are creating template agreements, and that are supporting the application and implementation of the development of those talent pathways. And some of that might include things that, you know, there's general convening, sense-making, and, you know, project planning. There is the bringing funding, whether it's philanthropic or otherwise to the approach. There's also that translation, right, that skill around the translation. And then there is also sometimes the bringing to the table of how to implement industry credentials, how to implement experiential learning models and how to think about the use of different technologies to do that as well. That sector-based collaborative approach to solve at scale a regional talent challenge, right? And the use of leadership, data signaling and strong intermediaries, whether it be the use of industry associations, regional workforce boards, organizations like ours, and in this case, we work collaboratively with NEBI, which is the regional board, and those being really important kind of takeaways in terms of how to do the multi-institution, multi-industry collaboration, which is where you can really see scaled impact as one example.

Julian: I in particular like that you are looking at sustainability in a very practical way, you know, agreements and project management, because I think so often and with all the money that's out there now, we see, you know, money, something's gonna happen if you pour a lot of money into it and then the money goes away and we revert. And I think that, you know, the approach you're taking seems to give us a greater chance of having some of this, some of this work really stick over the long haul.

Kristen: Yes, I think that is really important, right? There's leadership, focus, right? Metrics, what are the goals we're seeking to achieve? How are we ensuring that we are investing collaboratively, even in recruitment strategies in some cases, especially for emerging areas that where we're learners, whether they're traditional or non-traditional age, may not be aware of them, right? I see sometimes that if we build it, they will come model, right? Which is, as you all know, it doesn't work that way. You need to also think about marketing and recruitment and how are you gonna partner with community-based organizations to ensure that you're accessing different learner and worker populations and really reaching out to sideline talent in some of these cases as well. A huge challenge that we have as a nation is that we need to make sure that we are activating and empowering all talent to be successful for the... because of the skill gaps that we see, because of the occupational demand that we have, and to ensure that everyone can participate in the economic success and mobility that we know higher education can help to achieve.

Kaitlin: So Kristen, you've given us so many practical takeaways and examples in what you've shared today. But as we think about the question, we often ask our guests, what steps can our audience take to become forces in this work? I'm wondering specifically about, as you just mentioned, the goal of activating all talent and how to do that effectively and pulling on some of these threads of the importance of regional initiatives and collaboration across stakeholders and effective communication. Are there a couple of…when you think about all this work you've done, are there one or two practical steps that you'd really say, you know what, in order to kick this work off well, or in order to sustain this work effectively, you've got to do X, Y or Z.

Kristen: First is, I think it is really important for business and higher education leaders to be at the table in a way that is not just transactional, right? So that it is about, and this is hard, but it is about not just thinking about the immediate term, but thinking about longer term systemic talent strategies. Because one of the things that is important is that higher education needs to work more quickly, agilely and nimbly than it traditionally has to be able to be a partner in talent supply chains, right? For if we think about it that way. And to do that though, business really needs to be a committed long-term partner at the table that is co-investing in different ways in building those pathways into jobs that we may not know exactly how they're evolving and what they're going to look like in the future, right? Especially as we think about the impact of automation, for example, and artificial intelligence on different roles and that's playing out in real time before us. One way that that can look like that I think can actually be pretty tactical. So I mean, first it is, you know, making that longer term commitment and thinking about both the near term and the longer term needs and helping one another de-risk, right? Help the institution de-risk the development of a credential that they're working quickly to develop, that there's unknown, you know, and how much demand on the other side is there for that. We think it's this, but that might change over time. So help de-risk that for the student and the institution. You know, ways to support, right, financially, the students and the learners themselves and ways for business to give their time and expertise, right, to that, right, to de-risk it. Those are examples of what I mean when I say de-risk. And then I think on the higher ed side, help business de-risk their ability to access high quality talent by providing those different opportunities to offer input, et cetera. A specific way to do that that I think is really important is the offering of internships. And so I think this is just one other important area that I think is critical is that thinking about how do we create more capacity for work-based learning, experiential learning experiences, whether they be short-form micro internships up through a full-on internship, co-op, even onto apprenticeship, ensuring that there are more occasions and more opportunities for those. There's research out from Strada, The Burning Glass Institute, just the incredible power of internships on getting a better first job for students, ensuring that students are better prepared and equipped for their first jobs and that they're getting jobs that pay higher wages out of the gates. And so, you know, the ability, the investment and collaboration around more work-based learning opportunities is I think a really important place for, again, many to get involved and to think about how we can better design those. And one of the things that we've found from some of our work that will be coming out in September is that one of the primary motivations for employers in recruiting and offering internships is around attracting talent. But that's not the only reason, right? So there's some different typologies and motivations. It's around, we need to recruit and secure talent. We want to expose students to our workforce and our industry. And we want to test out students and see about mutual fit. But a second area of motivation is around, well, we want to provide our staff with some opportunities to supervise, right? That's really helpful too. Another is around, well, actually that also gives us some additional capacity to help with some additional project work that we have, right, through paid internships, et cetera. And then a last set of motivations around giving back. So things like mentoring and helping and giving back to institutions, mentoring students, aligning and strengthening partnerships with a certain university or community college in your area, and things like that. So as we look at what we know is important to employers, it's important to acknowledge that diversity of motivations and think about that. Secondly, as we look at some of the challenges around offering expanding internships, so one of the big ones is around just operational capacity. So it's hard to find and attract candidates. It is hard to, what's the work that's appropriate? How should I shape it? How should I structure that experience for students at different levels or in different contexts? So given that, I think that as a, both at individual institutions, at individual companies, and as we look across the sector, one of the things that I see real need and opportunity for is to think about how can different intermediaries and organizations reduce that friction so that we can create more of those opportunities and we can make sure those opportunities are more equitably distributed than they have been historically. Because the other thing that's really important for us as a sector to make sure that we are addressing to ensure that we've got more students who are graduating and ready to go into the workforce and into emerging areas is that they've got that supply of internships. And we know that right now it's not equitably distributed based on where you go to school, race, income, and other factors like that.

Julian: It's really interesting, Kristen, hearing you sort of talk about going beyond the transactional, because what I'm hearing is really what you're talking about is building relationships between employers and faculty and students and students who may not have had introductions and experiences with employers of a certain kind and so on.

Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, how do you think about that? There's the, we're talking about relationships at multiple different levels, right? This is fundamentally about how do we build the relationship between the learner and the employer? How do we make sure we've got the real strong relationships between the employers and the institution? And how do we manage those in ways that really align the motivations, goals, and needs of those organizations and of those individuals? Because ultimately, as we start out our conversation saying, for us to address the scale of magnitude of talent supply demand challenges that we have as a nation, we need to be working collectively together to share data, to share best practices, and to it's also sure what's not working, right? In ways that allow us to move farther faster to connect talent to opportunity.

Julian: Wow, well, you've given us a lot to think about, Kristen. And as we wind down the conversation, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

Kristen: You can Google the Business-Higher Education Forum and check out our website. We've got a blog post that we publish on LinkedIn. We also host for our network a convening for our network members in October. And if you are a business leader or a higher education leader or intermediary serving those audiences, you can reach out to me to learn more about that and about our network and our work. And I'm always happy to talk to other change makers who are leading the work to ensure that we are connecting learners in the higher education ecosystem to opportunity and that we are sharing what's working so that we can have greater impact together.

Kaitlin: Thank you, Kristen, for taking the time to join us today and for sharing what your learning is working in this complex space of the intersection of business and higher ed and industry. And we really appreciate your sharing your lessons learned and vision for going forward and look forward to continue to being in touch.

Kristen: Thank you. It's been great to be with you both. Stay cool.

Julian: Thank you, you too, Kristen.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at Workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon, and Spotify. Please subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.

Becky Lewis is Director of Education and Workforce Development at NextFlex, a manufacturing institute dedicated to innovation and workforce development in the flexible hybrid electronics sector. Becky shares her passion for creating pathways for untapped talent to access good-paying jobs and discusses the challenges and opportunities in addressing the skills gap in advanced manufacturing. The conversation delves into NextFlex's innovative learning programs, including the nationally scaled FlexFactor program for K-12 students and their initiatives to support incumbent worker training. Becky also highlights NextFlex's commitment to diversity and inclusion, with a special focus on expanding opportunities for women in STEM and manufacturing fields.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

Julian: Today we're joined by Becky Lewis. Becky is Director of Education and Workforce Development at NextFlex. NextFlex is a flexible hybrid electronic manufacturing institute that facilitates innovation, addresses the manufacturing workforce gap, and promotes sustainable manufacturing ecosystems. Becky leads NextFlex learning programs with a focus on inspiring and training an inclusive advanced manufacturing workforce. Becky is a seasoned leader with diverse experience in education, workforce development, and health equity. With decades of experience in grant writing, grant management, and budget oversight, she secured over $10 million in federal grants for institutes of higher education and takes a data-driven approach to measuring program outcomes and their impacts on diverse learner populations. Welcome to Workforces, Becky.

Becky Lewis: Thank you, I'm glad to be here.

Kaitlin: Thank you for joining us today, Becky. It's such a privilege to have the chance to connect with you. As we get started today, can you please tell us about your background and how you approach your work?

Becky: Of course. And it's so lovely to be on with you today as well. So I think one of the threads that's important in terms of my story is that I come from a family of folks that have always kind of given back. And I think some of that certainly comes from a certain level of privilege. So like everyone in my family is mostly doctors and healthcare professionals, social workers. And so I think there's definitely that thread of like, you know, whatever you're doing for a living should also be something that actually leaves the world and society, you know, a better place to some extent. And so I think I've always approached, you know, education and my work from that from that lens. I know, obviously, you read my bio, but part of where I started was really with community college and so teaching community college students for over 10 years. I really, really loved that work and I think that inspired me and gave me kind of a perspective and a platform upon which I've built my career. So I think the vision around that was really like how do we help equip people that might not otherwise have access to education, resources, social capital, to really have social and economic mobility and be able to live a quality, good life. Even though my background is really a lot of public health. And so with that lens, it's like, all right, well, we know that there's a really strong correlation between kind of the level of education that somebody has and actually their overall lifespan, their chronic disease rates, all of that. And so in my mind, there was always that idea of like, how can we ensure that people have as much education information, resources to support themselves and their families and not just survive, but thrive. So I think that's something that I've carried with me throughout my career and now really workforce development, I think it's gotten such a common…it's become such a household name, particularly post-COVID with everything. But you know, I really think what's what's interesting about the work is that it's not just about getting people into jobs, right? Like it's really about giving folks the skills and knowledge and kind of ecosystem that allows them to be successful and thrive. And I think and also just, you know, have good physical health, have good mental health, I think particularly coming out of COVID those have been more like visible priorities, both from an employer standpoint and also from an employee standpoint, because you recognize that you can't actually do your job well unless you are well, you know, sound bodies, sound mind. So I think those are some things that are really important to me and that I'll continue to carry with me in the work with Nextflex.

Julian: Becky, what is NextFlex? Tell us about the goals of the organization and your work within it.

Becky: Yeah, absolutely. So you gave a little bit of an overview of NextFlex, but just to go into more depth. So NextFlex is one of the nine manufacturing innovation institutes that is funded by the Department of Defense to essentially reshore manufacturing capabilities within the United States. And one of our key tenants or kind of mission spaces is education and workforce development. And so that's where I fit in. We are nationally focused. As an institute, we have a specific technology focus. So for NextFlex, that is flexible hybrid electronics and hybrid electronics broadly. We're also kind of looking at adjacencies with the semiconductor field and advanced packaging. But our workforce mission really is to figure out how do we support the workforce that's needed to strengthen US manufacturing capabilities and particularly for the defense industrial base since the Department of Defense is our primary kind of customer and stakeholder. And one of the ways that we really try to think about doing that and also aligns with my personal passion space, you know, is by looking at kind of untapped, overlooked, underserved talent and how we can kind of create bridges and pathways and opportunities for folks to have access to some of these good paying jobs.

Kaitlin: Great. So building on that, Becky, can you tell us a little bit about the learning portfolio that you offer that reaches K-12 students and adults as well?

Becky: One of the things that I think is interesting is like if you look at kind of the numbers in the United States, so we know that we are still, you know, the labor market, according to the Department of Commerce, still has not returned to pre-pandemic employment levels. Interestingly, you know, women actually are right around pre pandemic employment levels. And part of that is because of the increase of hybrid work. And so because of that, it's allowed women to be in the workplace and work from home and have that flexibility. However, childcare is still a tremendous barrier to accessing work for, you know, many, many populations, you know, including women. And we also know that, nNot only is there a current shortage in terms of not having enough people to fill the jobs that we have posted now, but we're also making billions of dollars of investment with semiconductors, with the Chips and Science Act, with the Biden incentive funding, and building these, you know, fabs all over the country. And we don't have people to fill those jobs either. So we're going to have to figure this out and really from NextFlex's standpoint, and I think many of us in the workforce development space, the solution to that is really, how can we again build those bridges and look into increasing access to populations that have not traditionally had access to some of these jobs? And what are we missing, right? So I think a lot of the things that we've always done for workforce, like we really have to kind of reevaluate and pivot and think more creatively about that, because the world of work has changed, I think, since COVID and people want different things. People don't want to be working 70 hour weeks. They want more flexibility. They want to be able to prioritize their family and mental health. And all of those things are essential. And for better or worse, people are able to be a little more selective about the kind of work they choose. And so how do we create opportunities that align with those priorities? So I just wanted to like provide that landscape first because I think it's relevant to kind of some of the problems that we're trying to solve. NextFlex has really a kind of K to gray talent pipeline approach. So we have started with our K to 12 program which is FlexFactor that was originally created in 2016 I believe and kind of piloted in the Bay Area with you know kind of urban and really diverse high schools in that area and then really expanded. So now FlexFactor is actually, has been scaled nationally. It's all over the country. We have over 20,000 students. I think we hit 21,000 this, in the last few weeks. So that's a lot of students. You know, it's a really impressive program. And I think what we've found is that people that adopt it and implement it, you know, really have like a brand recognition, you know, and they really like it and get excited about it. And there's some really good kind of outcomes in terms of including, you know, diverse students and also military connected youth among others. So it's been a really positive component of the work that we've done. We also do have, we've done a couple local programs in the Bay Area, one with a community college where we built a technician training program and that was kind of an earn and learn model. So I'm sure you know, like the earn and learn model, they have really high retention rates and completion rates. So we've done that. We also are working on building out some options for incumbent worker training now, and also working at mapping kind of some of the specific competencies that are needed. So if you're an incumbent worker and you're employed at like a production facility, what kinds of skills do you need, like, because you might not even know, in order to move into kind of hyper electronics, advanced manufacturing or other areas. And a lot of what we're hearing from at least that, you know, what I understand from workforce priorities under CHIPS is it's not like we want to train a whole bunch of people to make like one widget, right? And like, we want to be able to give people the multidisciplinary skillset and ability to really adapt and evolve and keep pivoting as the technology keeps adjusting. So, you know, it's an opportunity and a challenge. I think it in some ways makes it harder because it's like you can't have a one program that's going to solve everything. But at the same time, how do you kind of take these competencies or skills and then overlay them within existing training programs to help meet that need?

Julian: Becky, can you tell us a little bit more about how FlexFactor works and some of the very specific sort of outcomes. I mean, it's impressive that you've already served over 20,000 or 21,000 students interested to, I'm sure our audience would like to hear a little bit more about the actual program itself.

Becky: FlexFactor is really ideally situated within middle school or early high school, although it's been adapted for as low as fourth graders all the way up through seniors in high school. It essentially is a project-based learning model where students kind of get exposed to the concept and the technology of flexible hybrid electronics. It can be situated within any discipline. So if a student's in an environmental science class, if they're in a healthcare class that concept of the technology can be integrated. And so they can kind of develop a project that's aligned with their areas of interest, which I'm sure as you know, too, from a best practices standpoint, kind of contextualized learning is always the most impactful. And so that was part of the design of the program. It also really mostly lands within a community college system. We have some programs that are adopted by like museums or nonprofits and they run the program, but for the most part are the folks that have adopted the program are community colleges. And the way that it works is that they essentially have a license from NextFlex. They hire a program manager. The program manager delivers the curriculum in the K-12 system, but they then have a direct path to the community college. So they do tours there. They learn about their programs as a next step. So it really kind of provides this opportunity not only for exposure to the technology, but also like, okay, and then what? Like, so I'm gonna do this project, I'm gonna participate in this judged experience and with industry and have fun. And then, I'm gonna look at, okay, these are the opportunities that I could pursue should I choose to go on in this area.

Kaitlin: It's really interesting to hear you talk about how you're bridging these experiences, bridging the gaps between experiences really to make those connections for learners and perhaps encourage them to think, like, okay, here's what I'm learning now, but here's where I could be going with this knowledge. It's really interesting to hear how you're doing that through that program.

Becky: I think that is the program's strength because I think, at least when I was teaching at the community college you have one conversation with a student, like that is not sufficient to help move the needle on anything, right? So it's like multiple repeated exposures, multiple conversations, and then showing people like the pathway. And that's really how, cause if you can't, if you don't have anyone in your family that's pursued a career in this area, you can't imagine what that could look like. And so I think this model really allows them to see that. I think we certainly can do even more, we always can, but I think that's part of the strength of the model.

Kaitlin: Building off of that and maybe taking the conversation in a slightly different direction, we understand that NextFlex is also building out a fundraising initiative focused on expanding opportunities for women and other untapped talent in STEM and other manufacturing fields. Can you tell us a little bit about that effort as well?

Becky: Absolutely. And this is, again, a passion project of mine. Particularly, I have three daughters, and so thinking about kind of their path through the educational system and then into employment and what that will look like and knowing that some of the barriers, you know, that they'll come up again. So part of the vision of this is that NextFlex will have a perpetual fundraising effort focused on untapped talent. And in year one, we're focusing on women. Part of the rationale for that is when we like, I'm an academic, right? So I kind of a nerd, I did a literature review and we did a bunch of interviews. What we found is that there's a ton of programming, and obviously not enough still, but there's a ton of programming happening at the K to 12 level. So Intel has a program like Million Girls Moonshot. There's a lot of stuff happening there. As you kind of inch further up into college and then even early career, there's Million Women Mentors. There are programs, but there's not enough. And what we see with the data, is that many women who even if you start off like in a bachelor's degree in engineering, even if you complete that bachelor's, their first jobs aren't always in engineering. Often they end up not even being retained within the workforce upon completion of their degree program. Or someone might complete the degree, go into the workplace, and then decide to have a child or take some time off or the workplace culture isn't a good fit and then they don't come back. So NextFlex's kind of sweet spot of focus for this effort is really looking at how can we help ensure that women are retained. So if someone's already in an engineering program, already in a computer science program, we know they're excited, they have the skills, they have the passion, how do we keep them and how do we help and what can we put in place to do that? So is it mentoring programs? Is it leadership opportunities, professional development? Is it, you know, working with industry to think about addressing some of the cultural needs, you know, and policies that are specific to women in the workplace. So all of those things are relevant and that specific kind of demographic is who we were looking to target for this. And in talking to, we did interviews with probably like 20 different women to tea that, you know, across all different stages of industry. And I think the thing that really struck me was, so we're in 2024, like I would think there are certain things that problems we would have solved in terms of workplace culture and other things. And we really haven't. We have so much work to do. And that was sobering for me and kind of, you know, because it's like, wow, we have a lot of work to do. And of course, Nextlex can't do this alone. Like this is, you know, requires all of us at all different levels and industry and academia and nonprofits and, you know, media and everybody addressing it. But I think it made me feel like, oh, if we can even just do a piece to help move the needle and even start some of the conversations that probably need to be had, that's a good start.

Julian: Yeah, that's great. It's definitely important leadership for the field. Becky, before I ask you a question about lessons learned, it occurred to me that I want to ask you a question, which is, what are flexible hybrid electronics manufacturing jobs? So if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you that as a standalone.

Becky: The interesting thing about flexible hybrid electronics is that it is a technology that is used. So any of like the smartwatches that you wear or even things in cell phones, like those devices contain flexible hybrid electronic components. However, it's not widely adopted and scaled yet. So there are places where it's used, actually health care is another space where it's often implemented. And essentially it involves printing electronic components on like in a 3D additive way on a substrate. So and the substrate is flexible so that essentially it can be small, it can be flexible, and it can have lots of different applications. The challenge with this from like a workforce standpoint is that there aren't job descriptions out there today, for the most part, that have these descriptions in them. So what we're, and it really is interdisciplinary, like additive manufacturing, electronics, some robotics in places, like lots of different things that are needed. So part of the challenge and opportunity is to think about like, how do you kind of position a workforce that is equipped to continuously evolve, adapt skills, problem solve, think critically, and have enough savvy to be able to implement and pivot to incorporating this technology once it's kind of at scale, because we're not there yet. So a lot of positions, we're working on writing a proposal right now with some partners and one of the jobs we're looking at is a mechatronics technician. So that's a position that has really diverse skill set, fixing machines, and that could be like really well poised to then implement either semiconductor technology or other adjacent technologies. So that's a good example. But there are probably like five or six, at least if not more, technician level roles where the skills align and are comparable. But you're not going to necessarily see a job description that says, we want someone that understands flexible hybrid electronics.

Kaitlin: That's super helpful, though. Thank you for that. Because like you said, it's evolving. It's new. the connection across these different skill areas. It's exciting to learn about, but it sounds like it's still pretty new.

Julian: And with AI, you know, permeates jobs in the workforce. I mean, I think what you're describing and doing that sort of both anticipatory and helping people with their careers today is just gonna be the way of work. Becky, what are practical steps our audience can take to become forces in extending workforce development initiatives to the K-12 learners and incumbent workers, NextFlexers?

Becky: I do think the manufacturing innovation institutes are not a known entity. I think the folks that work with us know who we are and wanna speak for everyone, but generally like us. I think we are a member-based kind of ecosystem. So we have members, we have industry, academia, nonprofits, like economic development. So we work with everyone. And I think that the partnerships that we create are really important because it helps really kind of de-risk some of the partnerships where in some situations, like certain partners would be reticent to work together because of how complicated and emerging some of the stuff that we're doing is. I think community colleges, in my opinion, and this is 100% biased because I taught in one for a long time. I do think they are the linchpin and the fabric and the bones of this country's workforce systems. I think they are still largely under-invested in and to some extent underutilized. I know they more than any other kind of higher ed institution lost enrollment during the pandemic for a wide variety of reasons. I'm not up to date enough to know if that enrollment has fully returned or not. But I think figuring out ways to partner with community colleges and leverage their existing programming, like one of the things that I think is tricky is you're seeing, at least or I'm hearing a lot of now because industry understandably to some extent is frustrated with not having the workers. And so they're building these own internal training facilities or programs. And I totally respect that and understand the need for that. And I'm like, but man, you have a community college right here that's been doing this and that has, from a pedagogy standpoint and a student success standpoint, like has, really knows how to do this really, really well. And so I still think there's things that we could think about differently in terms of resources and where we're investing resources to get the workforce that we need. I know NextFlex, and this precedes my time, but has really worked consistently with community colleges. And I think that's part of also the rationale for why they were leveraged for the FlexFactor program. I'm sure you both know this, but it's super important for individuals that are from a certain community, particularly if they don't have someone in their college and their family that went to college, or they don't have that even vision for themselves. To be able to go to school within the community with people who look like them, with a familiar kind of sense of connection and community is really, really important. And that's been tested time and time again. And I think that's something that in this country we still struggle with a little bit. I think it's shifting, but I think that idea of like, oh, everyone should go get a four-year degree and that's the thing to do. And certainly that's what I did. And I had a great experience, but I also had no idea that you could go to a two-year school, get a degree, and actually get a job you know, quicker. And I don't think I mean, I think liberal arts education is incredibly important. I'm profoundly grateful for mine. But I also think just, you know, some of these ways that we pass individuals. And I think everyone's talking about this, this is not unique. But we really need to try to figure out like, what is the best for that individual? And then how do we kind of help them get there? And that we don't know, like, like, if I have grown up in a community where, you know, I don't have like, parents with professional connections, that social capital is tremendous in terms of how much you can get a job in x industry or get an internship or anything else. So I think all of those kinds of things and that's one of the reasons, especially for the Women in Sem Initiative, we're really thinking about how can we build mentor programs for women because that's been shown that women in those programs are two times more likely to actually stay in their degree and then persist if they have that relationship.

Julian: We're big believers in the community college system. And I mean, as I've been saying for years, they're the nation's training infrastructure. That's the big infrastructure we're all invested in and I think aren't leveraging enough. And especially in some of these emergent industries where there's sort of this default to like, oh yes, that's for people with lots of degrees.

Becky: Totally, yeah. And I think even though we have done so much work in so many ways, you know, to change that culture, I still think that's a heavy, you know, a heavy cultural norm that still persists.

Kaitlin: Well, and as you raised earlier, too, I think, you know, one thing that's very interesting to me about your learning portfolio are the multiple touch points available for learners are along the way. And I feel like that does allow for some of that. Like you're saying, building of social capital, building of an understanding, especially as an industry is evolving and how the skills a learner is developing fit within that industry over time. I think it sounds like it's interesting to just hear, think about like a learner's trajectory and as it aligns with your portfolio and how you try to reach people where they are.

Becky: And I appreciate that. I mean, of course, I think we can always do better. We can, you know, I mean, and that's part of what we wanted to do with this focus on kind of untapped talent is really like, how do we call out specific groups and then identify best practices or solutions to helping ensure there's a path? Because there's really different strategies that are needed for different populations. And that's the piece that I don't think that we've separated out as much as I would like us to.

Kaitlin: Yeah, that's a challenging area. Yeah. As we wind down our conversation today, Becky, how can our listeners learn more about your work and continue to follow what it is you're doing?

Becky: We are, again, a member-based organization. So we always welcome new members to join. On the workforce side, we also do have members that, we consider members that are workforce partners because we know that not everyone can afford membership. We have a website, NextFlex, and then we do have a couple, you know, we do have a couple of pages. We're actually revising our website now so it'll look even better in a few months, but really building out kind of like for different initiatives that we have, how people can get involved. So I'm trying to have like a specific call to action for each thing that we're doing. So if you want to help us shape strategy, if you want to be an industry partner, if you want to work on this with us, if you want to be a STEM ambassador for the Women in STEM Initiative, so that we have really kind of specific calls to action. So that's something that we're working on building out as part of the new website. And then the other piece I think is that there really is this whole network of institutes that are funded to do this work. So they're all over the country. NextFlex is based in California, but we have presence everywhere, including Massachusetts, where actually I live, New York, Missouri. And so I think like, if there's, you know, depending on where you are, if you haven't thought about like, or known about the presence of an institute, even just looking up and seeing what they're doing, because I think it is a resource to within the community that can, you know, that can help.

Julian: Well, thank you so much, Becky, for taking the time today. We really appreciate it. Becky: It was my pleasure. Thank you both so much. And it's been great having this conversation. Thank you for the opportunity.

Kaitlin: Thank you for joining us. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at Workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon, and Spotify. Please subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.