Work Forces

Chike Aguh is a trailblazer in workforce innovation, currently serving as Senior Advisor with The Project on Workforce at Harvard. He previously served as inaugural Chief Innovation Officer at the US Department of Labor under President Biden. Drawing upon his unique cross-sector experience, Chike shares his insights on the key problems and opportunities shaping the future of work and learning. He outlines his framework for bridging the gap between open jobs and those seeking to advance their careers, covering critical areas like defining future skills needs, developing innovative training models, and supporting career transition and advancement. Chike provides practical advice for employers, educators, policymakers, and workforce practitioners to build an inclusive talent development ecosystem.

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Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in. Today we're joined by Chike Aguh. Chike is a trailblazer in workforce innovation who has made significant contributions to American labor and education. Chike currently serves as senior advisor at Harvard University's Project on the Workforce, senior fellow on workforce at Northeastern University's Burnes Center for Social Change, and senior advisor at the McChrystal Group. As the inaugural chief innovation officer at the US Department of Labor under President Biden, he was pivotal in employing data and emerging technologies to enhance American workers' lives. Chike was also founding leader of the Education Design Lab's Community College Growth Engine Fund. He holds appointments with the Council on Foreign Relations, New Market Ventures, and the Higher Education Commission in Maryland. Chike earned degrees from Tufts University, Harvard Graduate School of Education, Harvard Kennedy School of Government, and the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. Thanks for joining us today, Chike.

Chike Aguh: It is my pleasure to be here and just thank you for having me and thank you for having this kind of space and to have these types of conversations.

Julian: Yes, Chike, really appreciate you joining us and we're very much looking forward to this conversation. And I guess to kick us off, if you would tell us a little bit about your background and how you approach your work.

Chike: For folks who know me, I like to say that kind of the path I'm on probably starts before I was born. And so my family, for those who don't know, my family is a very classic immigrant story to America. My family is from a far and out of the way village in Nigeria that most Nigerians themselves will never go to and never see. My grandparents, none of them went past middle school. My parents were born on streets that were unpaved then, they're unpaved now. They had Peace Corps volunteers in their classrooms and what changed for them and by extension for me was they got the opportunity to come study here in the United States of America at public universities in the late 70s. And so my dad went to UT in Texas, my mom went to Rutgers University in New Jersey, and I'm the first person in my entire family born in America. And I got to serve an American president. And so I've always tried to think about how do you replicate that arc for more families like it existed in my family. And if we know by the data, that arc is not usual. And the question is, how do we make it more usual? How do we make it more systemic versus serendipitous? And I think part of my theory of the case has always been that education and skills are a pathway, if not the prime pathway, to economic opportunity. And so that's why I spent really the majority of my career really in education and skills. And that's been everywhere from K-12 all the way now to the workforce and the talent and kind of future of work space. So that's kind of how I've approached the work. The only other thing that I'll say about how I have tried to approach it is I've had generally an interdisciplinary career across sector, across discipline. And it comes from, I think, a very elementary but I think important insight very early in my career that the problems we're solving, no one can solve alone. Whether that's one sector alone, one organization alone, one branch of government alone. It requires kind of all of us. You'll hear President Biden, who I got the honor to work for. He would talk about a whole of government approach for a lot of big problems. And I would always try to take it a step further, which is we need whole of society approaches to big problems like this. And again, creating an economy that kind of includes all of us, creating a future of work that includes all of us is I'd argue the biggest problem in front of us as a country and even as a species.

Julian: Yeah, it's funny. I often like to say that workforce development is a multidisciplinary undertaking. At the very least, you need the employers and the educators and trainers getting together, which is no small feat.

Chike: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Kaitlin: So building upon that Chike around these big problems, what are the key problems you're seeing in your work regarding the future of work and learning? Like if we break it down a little bit, because there are so many problems and opportunities.

Chike: So let me frame the problem and the opportunity, and then let me frame, I think, the questions you have to answer. So the way I think about it is, and I make it very simple because when I talk to smart people like you, I have to break them down for myself. There's a lot of work in America to be done, whether it's in the semiconductor industry, whether it's in green technology, whether it is in infrastructure, whether it's the care economy, whether it's allied health. We have a lot of work in America that needs to get done. When I came into government in January of 2021, we had roughly three jobs for every one person looking out there in the economy. Right now, we're probably at 1.25, 1.5 to every one person looking. And if you go to certain sectors, that number is much higher. Three, four, five, six, seven to one in terms of jobs available versus people looking. On the other side of the chasm, you have a lot of people who need work, who historically have needed work. And we know where they live. We know that they are in our rural communities, our low-income communities. We know these are communities of color, communities of immigrants, women, people with disabilities. And the thing is, those parts of the economy are actually the workforce, excuse me, are the ones that are actually growing. So you have a lot of people that need work. You have a lot of work that needs to get done. Big two, really big problems, but if you bring them together, they actually solve each other. The challenge is they're not close together. There's a chasm between the two of them and we need to build a bridge between the two to get that opportunity fully realized. And so I argue to build that bridge, you need to answer, I call them my five key questions. First question is let's be precise on exactly what is the work of the future. Not just in terms of sectors, but in terms of occupations and what those occupations include. If you were to talk to my old friend Connor who runs Merit America, he would say, every job has 32 component subtasks. Being really prepared about what those tasks are, not the technical, meaning kind of, I think what I call it, if you're a sports guy, the X's and O's, but also these, what they would call professional, 21st century power, pick your term, skills that are hard to count but are indispensable. We need to know what those skills are across every occupation so people know what they're aiming towards, whether you're a worker, whether you're a trainer, whether you're an employer. And I'll be honest, we're not always as clear about those as we want to be. There are amazing people doing work on that now. My colleagues at Harvard, my colleagues at the Burning Glass Institute, a number of folks who are trying to get more precision. And we have to keep those definitions about the work of the future up to date as things change. If you think about the meteorite that generative AI has been in the workforce since late 2022, it's created an entire class of jobs that literally didn't exist, didn't exist. And there will be more technologies that have the same effect. We have to keep up that definition of the work of the future. Secondly, how do you train people for that work? Really critical. Right now, we have, since ancient times, what's generally happened is you sat next to someone who knew how to do the job, and you watched them, and you did it. The challeng is, that's much harder now because of distance, because of, at times, systemic barriers that keep people out. And now, how do we create entirely new forms of training using emerging technologies like XR? How do we think about frankly resurrecting old models like true apprenticeship like you see in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and now gaining steam here in the United States and places like the UK. But we need new systems of training and again going back to the first one how do we make sure that we it's getting at the X's and O's of those jobs, but also those power skills that we know are critical all of us have heard employers say you know what just give you a person with the right mindset the right attitude and I'll come in and I'll train them. It's a bitch right but there's a bit of truth there about how important those skills are. And at times, our training doesn't get at both sides of that equation. At times, what I call the just-in-time skills and the timeless skills that we've been teaching since humanity was very young. Third question, how do the work and the worker find each other? This is a question we don't talk about a lot or nearly enough. We assume, if you took economics, we always assume perfect information. So if there's a job out there that fits a worker's skills and there's a worker out there that has those skills, they'll just find each other. That's not what happens. It's not what happens. We have, and I'll use a small example here, we had a, probably about in my home county of Prince George's, about nine years ago, the building of the largest casino on the eastern seaboard by MGM, right on the shores of the Potomac River. Beautiful place to go see a show, go have a night out at a restaurant. But for years, they had open jobs in things like food service, CDL, driving, groundskeeping. These are jobs that actually don't take a lot to train for. We had hundreds of those jobs open. If you were to go 35 minutes to neighborhoods that are kind of underserved, like people who are level will know these neighborhoods, Temple Hills, Fairmont Heights, Suitland. We had people who needed work. In my home county, which is a majority black county, our unemployment rate usually runs about two points above the Maryland average, almost historically. So you literally you have hundreds of jobs and you have people who need work literally a half hour from each other. But they don't find each other. Why not? People who live there may not know those jobs exist. One. Two, transportation in my county is not easy in terms of getting from one place to another. Three, and I don't know this for MGM, but for a lot of candidates, are there systemic barriers like justice involved? Is that a barrier for me getting in the door? Are there arbitrary degree requirements? Again, degree requirements are not bad, but they can't be arbitrary. So on and so forth. And many others. But we have this assumption that work and the worker find each other, and that doesn't happen by itself. Fourth, how do you support people when they fall out of the labor market or want to change in the labor market? Meaning, right now in America, and I worked on unemployment insurance for two and a half years when I worked at the Department of Labor. It was the first thing I did when I came in and I think the last meeting I had before I went out. Right now, we have a safety net at best. In fact, someone decided once it's a safety net with holes in it. What we really want to move to is an economic trampoline. When you fall out of the labor market, this system of benefits would catch you and help bounce you back into the labor market at at least as good a place as you were before, and ideally, actually a better place than where you want to be in the future. We don't have that right now. And so we need to figure out, OK, how do we, number one, when people fall out of the labor market, economically stabilize them so that they and their families don't go destitute, can pay their rent, get the groceries, and as or more importantly, get them the skills and the tools that they need to get back in the labor market and get back on the job, get back on the course to a career that they want to be in and that is useful for them and the country. We don't have that system at scale right now and we have to get there and get there quickly because of all the changes that are happening in the economy and because of disruptions that may come due to new technologies. Last piece, and this is a question that my time at labor really crystallized for me. How do you make sure that once someone is on the job, they are respected, protected, dignified, and advancing. So I'll use an example. In late 2021, you might remember this, we were worried if Christmas gifts were gonna get to the American people because we had all these big freighters off the coast of California near the port of LA and the port of Long Beach that couldn't land and they couldn't get their goods in. Why? Because we didn't have enough truckers to take them from the port to all parts of the country. Now, the initial analysis for many, many smart people was, oh, we need to get more truckers, we need to train more people, so on and so forth. I happened to work for Julie Su, who was the Deputy Secretary of Labor at the time, and is now the Acting Secretary of Labor. She also had been the Secretary of Labor of the state of California, and knew this place quite well, and so she pointed something out. We have, depending on the numbers, a six-figure amount of people who have CDL licenses who choose not to drive. Why don't they choose to drive? If you were to go to Amazon right now and look up a book on the trucking industry, there's only one. Do you know what the title of that book is? The title of that book is Sweatshop on Wheels. In many ways, it is a really tough job. It's a really tough job that a lot of people have said, you know what, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be away from my family that much. I don't want to drive that many hours a day. I don't want to. And so they choose not to drive it. And in some ways, that not being a good job kept people out of it and it hurt the country. Similarly, when people go on the job, people don't just want to stay and do that job forever. They want to advance. Are people advancing? You know, my colleagues at Burning Glass Institute who created the American Opportunity Index to look at mobility within companies once folks get in. That's a critical question, particularly in a very tight labor market where people have choices. So it's not just about what you pay them, not just about the benefits you give them. A lot of them are going to want to know, where am I going to be two years from now, three years from now, five years from now and you have to have an answer. So it's not just so in probably in a tight labor market and also an American workforce that actually is not really growing. It's at best stagnant and at worst it's shrinking a little bit. You have to retain workers if you are an enterprise. So as we think about how do we draw the bridge between the work that needs to get done, the people who need work have to answer those five questions. What is the work of the future? How do you train people for it? How do you make sure the work and the worker find each other? How do you support people when they fall out of the labor market? And how do you make sure that once people are on the job, they're respected, protected, dignified, and advancing? Answer those five questions and we bring those things together. And I argue we reap a huge economic opportunity. And I'll say one last thing here, and it's a question that you didn't ask me. Why do I think this is so important? My view is that that is the bottleneck to a robust and an equal and inclusive economy and a competitive economy. And I would argue it's also one of the things that's going to help us solve other problems like you know, the fact that we're warming the planet, the fact of deep political division. I generally believe that it is easier for people to work together to solve big problems when they are not economically destitute. So I believe it has a mediating effect on all these other problems that frankly, we see on the news every single day. So that's how I frame it. And then from there, it's easier to, I think, place particular projects, solutions, and kind of policy questions.

Julian: Yeah, now you frame the problem and the sort of path forward beautifully, Chike. So where would you like to help lead us to the space?

Chike: The challenge is you have to do all of it. Not every single person has to do all of it, but you know, some people say, what if I had only one dollar, what would you do? It doesn't work that way if you only do one of these or a couple you will still have problems. It's kind of like if you're in a ship that's got a couple of leaks, if you don't repair all the leaks, the ship still sinks. It might sink more slowly, but it still sinks. We've got to do all of it. And so I'll say a couple of things in each of those categories that I think are really important that I think about a lot. So on the what is the work of the future, I focused a lot when I was in government on what we call critical needs industries. Again, these industries that have good jobs, that have low barriers to entry, and that are critical for the country's semiconductor construction, the care economy, so on and so forth. I think focusing on those jobs, particularly because they have deep shortages, that is a place where you can bring about those partnerships between higher education providers, non-ed providers, government, employers, because they have an economic imperative. I've always said to folks who are doing workforce development, go to people who are desperate. And by people, I mean employers. Folks who don't have that burning need, it's going to be harder to create those partnerships. Focus on the folks who do. So that's, I think, number one. I think on the training piece, this is the time for innovation. This is the time to try new form factors. Again, resurrected apprenticeships in new industries using things like XR and online means. And mixing those types of form factors to do new types of education is really, really critical and I'm having to kind of dive deeper there. On the work and the work of finding each other. My colleague Joe Fuller at Harvard talks about the need for a ways for careers. We need a career navigation apparatus for people that can follow them throughout their careers. Basically, when people are looking for a new career, we say, go with God, figure it out. That's what we say at scale. People who are lucky maybe can get in front of a counselor. But what we actually should have is I'd argue, a people-based but also technology-empowered way for people to figure out what they want to do next and where exactly that path is. On the safety net piece, the economic trampoline piece, in many ways this is a public policy question. Again, I spent a lot of time on this. I can tell you how I think unemployment insurance should look very different. But the key thing that I would say, which I think is a place where a lot of states and localities can do better. When people are applying for unemployment insurance or getting unemployment insurance, they should literally not be allowed to leave the transaction without being put on a path to new skills, new jobs. Some states do this well, some states don't. But when we have that interaction, we cannot let that person leave without helping put them on a different path. And again, you have some states like Rhode Island, New Jersey, who are doing amazing work on this. States like Colorado, who are trying to do amazing work on this. And then the last piece. And I'll use one example. How do we make jobs that we need done better so that people actually wanna fill them? And I'll use one small example. When I was at the Department of Labor, we had a presentation from two researchers from the University of Chicago, if I remember correctly. And one of the things they looked at was unpredictable scheduling. And I might get these figures wrong, and so if I do, I apologize to my colleagues from the University of Chicago. But it was something like, and they said retail workers, think about folks who work in the mall, so on and so forth. A third of workers in America are in jobs like that. And those third of workers don't know what their schedule is going to be three days in advance, which is a crazy figure. Think about all of us who have children or have families. If I didn't know my schedule three days from now, I don't know how I would live my life. It's impossible. And so if you ask employers, why do you schedule folks like that? Well, they say, well, our customer demand changes that much, therefore we have to schedule that way. And so when these researchers looked at the actual data, they found that customer demand was actually much more predictable than worker scheduling. And what they found was, hey, look, these tools they're using to schedule are over-assuming customer demand. And if you actually just make things in line, you could give workers a much better quality of life because they would know what their schedules are and likely you would retain them longer, which is less training. You have less less billets open, so on and so forth. So there are things like that. We always focus on wage and benefit, which, of course, is key. But there are these other things that are critical to a good job. If I were to jump out that I couldn't do it, I would quit because my family couldn't take it. Most of us would, who have the ability to. The people who stay in those jobs, a lot of times are workers who have no other choice. And the question is, how do we frankly reduce the amount of jobs that people take because they don't have any other choice? So again, long answer to the question, but these are some of the vein of solutions that I see across this space.

Kaitlin: So as we think about practical steps, right? Like as you're getting, that last example, I think was a great one where it's like, okay, what's something that can happen, maybe not easily, but readily to help support workers? What are other practical steps for our audience and what they can do to become forces in the future of work and learning, recognizing the complexities we currently face?

Chike: So let me focus on the interaction between a training provider, whether you're a community college, you're a higher, you're a four year, you're a nonprofit and the employer. In the end, it is the critical interaction and then the worker is in the middle. So literally, you know, I imagine it like in this weird circle, and then there's the worker in the middle, who's the end user. Let's talk this time about from beginning to end, ideally from when there's an employer need and also a worker need, all the way to ideally a worker in a job that's serving their needs as well as the employer's. The first thing, and I'm going to name some things that I don't see enough. So one, workforce development, and it's a basic thing, must start from an employer need. Gina Raimondo, who's the secretary of Commerce, when she was the governor of Rhode Island, she used to talk about, we can't do the train and pray approach, which is, I train you and I pray that there's a job at the end. If it was up to me, those programs would not exist. They wouldn't. You cannot, it is unfair to take someone and train them, make them take time away from their family. If they leave, they're not being paid, which a lot of them are not, and then not be able to at least give them a line of sight to a job. That can't happen in America, particularly when there are jobs. And so that is, I think, a challenge. So one, it has to start from the employer need, that's one. Two, if you are a training provider, you need a level of collaboration with the employer to craft your training that is uncomfortable. A lot of folks have, oh, I have my quarterly council meeting with my employer, we sit, we talk about what we should do, that's my employer collaboration. It's not good enough. The collaborations that I have seen that are really powerful are literally employers with training providers weekly. They're seeing training happen and they're saying, all right, you know what, I know we did this as topic one, this really should be topic four, topic five should actually be topic one because of this change that's happening in my industry. That's the level of collaboration that you need. And it's uncomfortable. Employers are not used to it. Providers are not used to it. But that's what it has to be. Then, of course, you're kind of watching that talent kind of over time. And by the way, as folks are going through training, we have to, transportation helps. Some folks are gonna need childcare help. Some folks are gonna need, like, we need that wrap-around services to make sure that people make it through. Because one of the not dirty secrets, but it's the same thing we don't talk enough about, a lot of folks who start programs don't finish. And a lot of times it's not because they can't do the materials. It' that life intervenes, and we gotta make sure that life doesn't intervene. But before we go on, one thing I did mean to say was, on the front end, when we're talking about crafting what these programs look like, employers need to be very clear on the skills required for the job that's being trained for. And I have said to many employers, you overestimate how clear you are about that to the market. A lot of them are not as clear as they think they are. And even internally at times, you can ask different people what skills are required for the same job, and you get different answers within the same firm. That is actually on the employer to be very clear about. Jump forward. Another place where I think employers need to do better is let's assume that the program did its job. They train people, the people are ready. Do you have a clear path from the end of that program into a job? And this is at times where HR is actually, it doesn't necessarily move as fast or as fast as we would like. And it does at times, it is not as times as easy and adaptable as really compared to government or compared to higher education. Is there a clear path? Or are they still putting their application in in the same docker that everyone else is? Is the program that they just did at your direction being recognized by HR so they can get in and get in front of a hiring manager? If the answer's no, then you just have that person do all that for nothing. Because they might as well have just applied and potentially not get the same result. And then once they're in, what's the path? That is the critical interaction that has to happen. And each of those things, I believe, is firmly within the control right now of the providers and the employers or together. So those are practical things they can have. They're not easy. They're clear, but they're not easy. And they are not status quo, but they have to be done. And if we could get that right in America and in communities, a lot of the other problems become easier to solve. Right now, sadly, we don't have a scale. And we have it in pockets, but not at scale. It's a system that does that entire thing that I described. And if you look at the countries who are more successful, they have that at scale.

Julian: Great advice. And our audience is really a mix of practitioners and policymakers. And so the minute you said scale, I'm like, and what can the policymakers do to make this scale? And I'm thinking federal and state. I mean, you know, you have a really great perspective on all of it.

Chike: I would say a couple of things. And I'm thinking about some of my colleagues who I used to work with at the Department of Labor who are debating these questions right now on the federal level with reauthorization of the Workforce Innovation Opportunity Act, but also on the federal level. Dollars for workforce development should follow Two things, One, employer demand. You cannot train for jobs that do not exist Secondly, they must go for good jobs, and when I say good jobs, and again, you can look at the framework the Department of Labor and the Department of Commerce came up with for what a good job is. To be honest, I don't necessarily know if I want public dollars funding jobs that aren't good. And when I say good I use a very simple thing. Do I want these two kids what I have over my shoulder whose picture I have over my shoulder? Is it a job with good wages, good benefits, freedom from discrimination, freedom to organize, predictable scheduling, and that leads to a career? Dollar should be focused on those two things, jobs that employers need, and jobs that are gonna make workers' lives better. And I'll say a third thing, these should flow towards training programs that actually produce results. Right now, if we're candid, we have a bell curve of effectiveness in workforce development. We have some folks who do an amazing job. We have a lot of folks that don't. And to be honest, particularly in a ffiscally constrained environment that I lived in when I was in for my two and a half years of labor, and it was just even more the case now, we can't afford to put dollars towards programs that aren't producing for workers and for employers. We can't. And to be honest, I'll go a step further. It actually, in some ways, if I was a good provider, I'd be annoyed if I'm doing my job and frankly, you should be giving, they should get more money and folks who are not doing their jobs should get less. That's a controversial thing that I may have said. And one thing that I'll say is one critique at times we'll get of that is, well, if I fund based on effectiveness, then folks will be hesitant to take on folks with, what we say, chronic barriers to employment. I think there are ways to incentivize around that. You actually see it in some ways in the K-12 space, where basically you have funding based on weights of student disadvantage, whether they be immigrants, people in Section 8 housing. I think there are ways to do that. But what we can't say is that effectiveness doesn't matter. We can't say that. We cannot. So that's, I think, how dollars should flow. Number two, we need better data on what happens to people once they leave workforce development. At scale, we don't know. I met so many providers who, oh, I do a survey. I do, look, the folks who answer surveys, it's like anything else. They're either really happy or they're really mad, but it doesn't get to the broadest wealth of what happened. And that's why I need to know. This is where we need to, I think, leverage IRS tax data, the UI wage record, things like that. And that is a policy thing. And we need, policymakers need to make that data easier to share across silos. And, conversely, they need to make sure that that data is secure and it is private. So I'll use one key example. One of the concerns is let's say that, so one thing that I want to know about workers who go to workforce development is what did they get paid when they went into the job? One can argue that if I'm an applicant, I don't necessarily want my employer to know what I made in my last job because we actually know it as deep wage inequality impacts in terms of prior salary. There are actually ways to fix that. You basically, I don't need to know the aggregate. I don't need to know what Kaitlin made in her last job or what Julian made in his last job. But there are ways to solve that, but that's a policy thing. And then let me say one last thing, which is I think policymakers, and this is not about money, this is about convening. I think for critical industries and it's happening now, we need to get trainers and employers together. That is a legitimacy that the government has, whether it's the federal government, when I was at the Department of Labor, we did it a lot. When I was at the state level with Governor Patrick, when I was at the city level with Mayor Bloomberg. That is a particular power that government has, and I would argue is under-leveraged in terms of creating those partnerships to get that going. And so these are things that I think government actors can do, but those are some of the things, and I have so many more. I think that the way the unemployment insurance looks, it could be far more robust and far more effective in terms of getting people back in the labor market. I think it needs to tie it better to other benefits. It needs to have a more of what we call a no wrong door approach. So no matter what benefit you're going for you likely need help getting back in the labor market. Let's make sure that if you're applying for a snap or for TANF or for Pell we're connecting you immediately before you leave the interaction here with resources to get you to where you want to go. Again that Ways, that career navigation or GPS for where people want to go to the labor market. So those are some things I believe policymakers can do to get to scale. And let me say one last thing, and it's not about government, but it's about what I've watched in those countries that have it, the Germany's, the Austria's, of the world. It is very common there to start at different points in the training system, the education system, and still end up in a great place. You have many CEOs of their biggest companies, I think about Swiss Re, Zurich Insurance. I think he may even the head of UBS, who started off as apprentices. And then maybe they went back for a graduate degree later and came back and they have this helpful weave and almost shoots and ladders system, which is designed. And they have a system where it doesn't matter where you start, you can still end up at a great place. We in America are not there. Part of it is the way we design it. But part of it, if we're honest, is also how we view where you start. We still view people who have college degrees in a different light than a few people who don't. And I'm not someone who says degrees don't matter. I think they do, but they shouldn't matter arbitrarily. They shouldn't be the only way that you can prove that you can do a thing. I'm from Maryland. We are a national leader in cybersecurity. Why? Because we have the NSA literally right off the road from me at Fort Meade, as well as a huge ecosystem of firms that do this work. If you look at cybersecurity, there are a number of really amazing jobs that don't require a college degree, a four-year degree. Some don't require a two-year degree. You can go take a Google certificate for $150 in cybersecurity and actually be, in many ways, market ready.And by the way, that's another critical industry that we need filled, that we don't have nearly enough people to do. So as part of it, which is not just what can government do, but what can we, as Americans, in terms of how we view the economy and how we view training, to make sure that, no matter where you start, you can still end up in a great place, and that will not be held against you.

Kaitlin: Absolutely. So this is it's really helpful to hear you talk through, Chike, both what business leaders can be thinking about, what policymakers can be thinking about as we take really this more holistic approach to how we rethink workforce and talent development nationally and learning from international examples as well. And I'm wondering, as we close out today, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow the work that you're doing?

Chike: I'm easy to follow on LinkedIn. I'm usually the only Chike Aguh on whatever platform you're going to look for on LinkedIn, on Twitter. So that's one. Two, I recommend a couple of organizations that I do work with. I think the world of Burning Glass Institute. Let my great friend, Matt Sigelman, Paul Fain, who was on your podcast earlier, his newsletter is fantastic. I think about Joe Fuller and Managing the Future of Work, their podcast as well as their newsletter. And I would encourage you to also follow the Project on Workforce at Harvard, who produces some amazing work. And one of the things I also think about is there's workforce development, which people need to stay on top of, but also follow what's happening within industry. So whether it's, you know, I watch Bloomberg Technology every day, which you can watch on YouTube for free, but it's knowing what's happening within that industry. And by the way, if you listen to a lot of those companies, the NVIDIAs, the Intels, the Apples of the world, you will hear one of their big concerns for their growth is where will the workers come from to build the new applications, the new factories, so on and so forth. And so I also encourage people who are doing this, don't just stay on top of the field of workforce development, which is critical. Stay on top of the industries that you're looking to serve because in the end, if you're not serving a market need, you're not serving. You're kind of building bridges to nowhere for people and we can't afford that.

Julian: Wow, I feel like I really hate to cut this off because this is just like amazing, amazing framing, information, practical steps, good examples. Thank you so, so much, Chike, for taking the time with us. And hopefully this is the beginning of a conversation for the three of us as well.

Chike: Thank you, thank you so much for having me. And again, thank you for having this platform for people to have these types of conversations. I am a frequent listener now and I look forward to more.

Kaitlin: Thanks so much, Chike, for your time. Thank you. You appreciate it. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Work Forces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

Paul LeBlanc is President of Southern New Hampshire University. Over 20 years, he has led SNHU's explosive growth, expanding access to over 250,000 students, to become the largest nonprofit provider of online higher education in the U.S. Paul shares his perspective on how artificial intelligence and the rise of tools like ChatGPT will bring deep shifts for higher education. He outlines the need to reinvent learning models and curricula, deploy AI judiciously, and coordinate global data sharing. Ultimately, Paul expresses optimism that AI's transformative potential can usher in positive change for society, if anchored by human relationships and wisdom. This forward-looking discussion provides higher education leaders timely insights on navigating AI-driven disruption through coordinated innovation that keeps learner needs at the center.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in.

Julian: Today, we're thrilled to be joined by Paul LeBlanc, President of Southern New Hampshire University. Paul joined SNHU in 2003 and has transformed the university into the largest nonprofit provider of online higher education in the country, expanding its student base from 2,800 to over 250,000. Paul's been recognized for his innovative leadership and has earned accolades from Fast Company, Forbes Magazine, and Washington Monthly. And in 2018, Paul won the prestigious TIA Institute Hesburgh Award for Leadership Excellence in Higher Education. Paul's work extends beyond SNHU. He served as senior policy advisor to Under Secretary Ted Mitchell at the US Department of Education, and on several national committees focused on education, quality, and innovation. As a first-generation college grad with degrees from Framingham State University, Boston College, and the University of Massachusetts, Paul's career has spanned from directing a technology startup for Hoetten Mifflin to presiding over Marlboro College before joining SNHU. And most recently, Paul announced that he is stepping down from his role at SNHU and is embarking on an exciting new chapter to focus on the integration of AI into higher education. Thanks so much for joining us today, Paul.

Paul LeBlanc: It's really great to be with both of you.

Kaitlin: So wonderful to see you, Paul. Thank you for joining our podcast. So though we've given this bio, can you please tell us a bit about your background in your own words and your journey of bringing SNHU to its current scale?

Paul: Sure. Let me do the first one in broad strokes. So my family immigrated from a very sort of impoverished rural farming area of New Brunswick, Canada when I was just a kid. And I was the youngest of five and the first in my extended family to go to college. My father had an eighth grade education. My mother had a sixth grade education. And they were, you know, my mom worked in a factory until she was in her seventies, and my dad was a day laborer and a construction worker. And like all immigrant stories, you know, they came because it was work and a better life. And indeed there was. So I have a kind of schmaltzy love of the American dream story. And because I watched the way that my two grown daughters have a life now that their grandparents would scarcely imagine if they were still with us. And that was because I had access to high quality, affordable higher education and changed the whole trajectory of my life and thus theirs. I think that dream has increasingly slipped out of reach for too many Americans and new immigrants and working people. So SNHU has been…what I loved about this place when I came in 2003, almost 21 years ago now, was that that in its DNA had always focused on those learners. It wasn't a typical college that started with a campus and 17 year olds and that bucolic setting we see on view books. It started in the second floor over the Palace Fruit Company on Hanover Street in Manchester and wasn't until 1968 that it had a campus. So when I arrived in 2003, it had about 2,500 students and they had sort of continuing education centers and those were evening programs working adults, but it also has a small online program at a time when a lot of not-for-profit higher ed was still looking down its collective nose at online learning, thought it was inferior quality, couldn't be as good, you need to be in a classroom with our faculty to have a great experience, and yet we watched as for-profit higher ed just rushed to fill that vacuum and people forget that at its height the for-profit sector educated about 12% of all American college students. And I thought, A, we could do a better job. We learned a lot from them. And then I think, though, I tell people all the time, when Phoenix University first came along, they really did good work. They thought hard about what does a working adult need in terms of support and service. It really, they only started to go sideways when they became publicly traded, and quarterly reports and shareholder value trumped good behavior, and then we all know how they went off the rails. So we set out to really look hard at what would it take to grow a nonprofit online institution that was laser focused on that 32 year old with three kids and a dead-end job, maybe some credits. How do they improve their life? And that's really been the driving mission of this institution. We've never wavered from it, you know, even though we're very large now, as you said Julian, and while we're financially very robust and healthy, we didn't raise our tuition for 10 years. We're still an affordable option. And we also didn't get distracted by chasing status. Like we've never, sometimes because we do have a campus, we're like, why don't we do Division 1 sports? That would put us on the map. It was like, and how would that make the life of our students better? Like, tell me again how that works for us. Or across higher ed, people will say, we want to get to a place where we can be more selective and get better students. Like, no, I love the students we serve. I don't want better students. I want us to be better for our students. And that's been probably our big driver. So the rest of the story about how we get to the size has lots of good luck and missteps. And we didn't know how to scale when we started scaling. In 2012, I think, Babson University listed us as number 50 on their list of the 50 largest nonprofit providers of online education. And just three years later, we were number four. And in those three years, we were number four. And in those three years, we were hiring 40-50 people and every Monday we were onboarding. We had you know mountains of Dell computers out in the hallways and and more and God we had no idea what we were doing like we just broke everything we had no idea how to scale so we learned some lessons we had our stumbles, but I think you know part of it got us through all of that was this unwavering focus on our mission and doing really good work for our students. So that's really sort of the story of our growth.

Julian: It really is such an amazing story, Paul, the theme of effectively leveraging technology in education has run through this story and contributed so much to the growth, right? As you've said. But reflecting on these last couple of decades, what are the trends and challenges that you've seen as a technology that has evolved and ushered in AI?

Paul: So I think, you know, among the sort of challenges we've faced certainly is the regulatory framework, you know, where we are a heavily regulated industry, and I think regulators have often also shared some skepticism of what was possible in online education. And look at the skeptics weren't wholly wrong 20 years ago. Like Clay Christensen has taught us this lesson about disruptive innovation, is that it usually isn't as good as the incumbent thing it later comes to replace or compete with. It gets better though in a very steep curve. Like it gets better fast. And we get better fast. And we started to harness data and data analytics. And, you know, we have lots of...every month we have kind of open day for visiting institutions. We're very collaborative in terms of people who want to learn what we do. And I would say that the showstopper almost every time is when that visiting team hears how we use data and sees 75 people on our data analytics team and they realize we measure everything. We measure how long does it take to complete a financial aid package? How long does it take to get someone enrolled? How are they performing in their classes? We monitor every section of every course 24-7. We know when students are stumbling, eventually, almost always, there'll be a provost, our president who turns to his or her team and says, how come we can't do this? Why don't I get to ask these questions? So I think one of the things we grapple with is really the poor state of data in higher education at the institutional level, where it sits in silos, there's a lot of data collected, but there's not a lot of data analyzed and put to work, and there are data, generally speaking, in the industry. Like we don't, like when I look at the iPads, I don't recognize us, me, or you, right? It's a weird out of date, like it's not real time. So. So I think that's probably our biggest challenge related to that would be our legacy systems. You know, someone said to me recently, because I have worked my whole career in higher ed, that's sort of like the goldfish who sees the castle and like, oh, there he comes. I just assumed that we were like a big lucrative market and people would want to build great technology solutions for us. That's not the case. We are dwarfed by K-12. We are dwarfed by finance. We are dwarfed by healthcare. The legacy systems that we work with in higher education tend not to be the most cutting edge, the most up to date. So I think some of our progress was leveraging industry leaders like in CRM technology. We deploy Salesforce as a lot of people do now. But when we did it at first, there were a lot of like, what is Salesforce and how do you use it? And by the way, what's the CRM? Those are the things looking back that I think we were able to push through and move pretty quickly on. But I think moving forward, I am in the camp that thinks AI radically changes everything. Like, I think the world is not the same today after November 30th, 2022, with the advent of ChatGPT. And while AI has been around for a long time, it's been embedded in our phones and in our GPS and in our back office operations, the idea that any of us can now augment our intelligence with natural language by just speaking a prompt or typing a prompt in English is revolutionary. So looking ahead, I think massive challenges for higher education, because I think there'll be massive challenges for the workforce. I think the workforce will be utterly changed and transformed. And if university's primary job is to prepare people for a world of work, and while as an idealist, I think it's about a lot of other things as well, but that's its first job. It's why society funds higher education, is to prepare people to serve society. We are a knowledge factor and a knowledge economy and now knowledge has to be fundamentally redefined. By extension, we have to redefine universities. I've argued elsewhere that all curricula became instantly out of date on November 30th, '22. Like if you weren't looking at everything you teach to say, does this major still matter? Like would you advise people to go into accounting? I wouldn't. Someone said I think those jobs are gonna get enormously displaced. Will there be no accountants? No. But I think it might be 10% of the current number because AI does it so well and faster and smarter. And I think we go through, you know, field after field. And then as McKinsey argues, something like 65% of jobs won't go away, but they'll be radically redefined. Well, you better start redefining your major then, like what are you teaching? And I, you know, I chuckle when I hear faculty in some instances say, you know we need to ban the use of ChatGPT in our classes and I was like, wow, so you would actually ban the very tool that will get students jobs, right? I mean, it's sort of crazy, right? So yeah, I think it's so exciting. So a lot of things have to happen to go to your technology question. A, we have to sort of, we have a lot of work to do. We're very early. Like, we're not gonna figure this out overnight. So we have a lot of work to do to understand AI, how to best use it, what kinds of tools. We need to think about our policies. We need to think about, we think things like academic integrity, the use of writing, what counts for knowledge, and we can go deeper on this one if you like. And then we need to think about how we use data as a sector. And one of the things that I've been working on with George Siemens, who's joined us as a chief scientist on our new venture, is a proposal for a global data consortium. And the idea is that you build better AI applications, you get new and better insights when you have more data. And as a sector, we're terrible at our data, so could we create a global data consortium where large-scale providers would make their data available. It would be pooled, protected in a synthetic layer to protect student privacy and individual data, but that we could all then have better insights. So the Gates Foundation has given us initial funding on the design. ACE, the American Council of Education, has agreed to house it. It shouldn't live with an institution, right? It needs to have a neutral home, so ACE is going to house it. And in the initial conversations we've had with various large-scale providers, if everyone joined who says they want to, the devil's in the details, and that's what we're working on now, we would have more than 30 million students represented globally in that data consortium. So I think it's a very powerful idea. And with that, we can start to counter things like algorithmic bias. We can ask different kinds of questions. We can combat cultural hegemony in the data. Like there's just lots of things that get better when you can do this globally. So yeah, it's an exciting, exciting time. I fret over all the ways we could get it wrong. But I do think there's a version of this that is incredibly optimistic and hopeful. So much of the AI discussion I hear is about real fears and well-founded fears, by the way, but a lot of fear about, you know, the ways in which it will disrupt our society and maybe displace human beings in various ways. And I'm looking around and thinking, is this working really well for us? Like what part of society is working well today? Like, I don't know, maybe human intelligence is overrated. And maybe a little bit of augmentation would be a good thing. I'm not looking forward to like our robot overlords, but there is an argument that says if we train people less around the issue of, and I know this is grossly oversimplified, but if the fundamental notion of the university and the college major is to answer the question, what do I need to know in order to be an X? What if you can know everything? What if it's all a prompt away? So maybe the better question we should be answering is, what do we need to know, or how do we need to think about the world so that we're better human beings, so there are better societies, there are better communities. And George Siemens argues, and I've come to agree with him, that the fundamental shift facing us, and it's a profoundly existential one for universities, is that we will spend less time worrying about epistemological questions of knowledge, because we're no longer the most powerful knowledge entities on the planet, but maybe a lot more time on ontological questions of being. What does it mean to be in this world? What does it mean to be a good human? And honestly, that would be sort of refreshing to my mind. And it might be that we see things like the decline in status for a lot of STEM and maybe a resurgence of the humanities. Looking very different than they do. I think they're kind of super out of date, but isn't that really what the questions of the humanities are about? So I think it's potentially a super exciting time.

Julian: As you're talking, one of the issues we're dealing with in the workforce world is there are a lot of very esteemed researchers, for example, looking at taxonomies related to skills and well, if we have the skills, we have the technology to see them all and read them all, then maybe our jobs are going to shift a little bit and it'll have all sorts of implications for the kind of dissertations we write and the kind of research we do. And as you say, maybe we can focus on making this world a better place. Not that we're not doing that already, but really focus our efforts on how can we improve quality of life and work and ensure that more and more people have productive and happy careers.

Paul: If you think about knowledge work, Julian, Stuart Russell is the wonderful computer scientist from Berkeley. He does a wonderful, if your listeners haven't heard it, the BBC has something called the Reflectors and there are four of them that Stuart Russell did in 2023. And he says, he makes a wonderful point, he said, if you had told our ancestors that someday in the future, this thing called a knowledge economy, you go to work into a big sealed box called an office building. And then you'll sit in a small glass box called a cubicle and stare at a really little box that has a bright thing called a computer screen. And they would say, and you'll do that all day, they would say, that sounds like hell. Right, like the work that's wonderful is can I be with people, can I be in nature, can I be making a difference in my community? And honestly, we have enormous need for those human jobs. I've argued this in lots of places like we should fill, we should flood our schools with great teachers and coaches and social workers, right? We should rebuild a mental health care system that is broken. I mean just decimated. We don't have a health care system in America anymore…mental health care system, excuse me. That's gone. We need to fix our whole notions of criminal justice. System after system in what I call in my 2022 book called Broken, what I call symptoms of care, those are all jobs that AI can't and won't do. They may be helped by AI, but these are distinctly human jobs. But if you think about all the jobs I just listed, our society doesn't like to pay very much for them. It doesn't want, it tries to have as few of them as possible, and they don't enjoy the status or support. That's what I think could shift. I think it'll have to shift because those are the jobs that AI won't do well and those jobs left to us. And they're actually jobs that bring people enormous sense of meaning and impact when they're well supported, when you don't burn people out, when you don't mistreat them. Carlota Perez, the economist, talks about this, right, which is, this is one of those moments where you get all of these things, new paradigm-shifting technology comes about, and it's usually around for a while in various forms, but it all comes together in a catalytic moment. So AI has been around for decades. ChatGPT is the catalytic moment, and now we're in the middle of what is kind of like an in-between time. And in the in-between time, all bets are off, like the world gets thrown into upheaval. And honestly, scarily, sometimes bad things happen, like wars happen, revolutions happen, because all the old assumptions go away. Feels like we're in that moment right now. And then, as she argues, in every case, you come out of it into kind of a golden age. Like the world just gets demonstrably better. It doesn't feel that way in the middle of the chaos. Like in the middle of the Industrial Revolution factories are being built and workers are being displaced and the agrarian culture was sort of going to hell. Railroads are coming through, stinking up the place. We're like, that was like, you know, go back to read English poetry of the, you know, early 1800s and it's a kind of a hellish version of things. But then look what happens when you come out of that and you raise the level of society, pull people out of poverty, improve lives. All of this good stuff happens. That's my hope.

Kaitlin: So building upon that point, Paul, that we're in that middle or early stage, early phase of this work. From your perspective, what do college presidents or leaders in higher ed or business more generally need to consider with AI becoming more mainstream? What does it look like to navigate this moment? Like what are some from a leadership perspective, some recommendations you could provide?

Paul: So one, I mean, get educated, right? We all need to learn a whole lot, play with the tools. So if you're a college president today who's not using these tools, I think you're remiss. I would encourage all my people as we have at SNHU to be playing with these tools. And then I think as articulated in a book called Power and Prediction, which came up, it's about AI, but it came out before ChatGPT, but it really predicted in many ways. I think organizations have to approach this in two ways. I think they have to look at the organization as they know it today. And then they have to think about the ways they can deploy AI to improve what they do. And I would say most are doing that. Like I see it at SNHU too–all over the place. Everyone's using AI. You know, there are 1.7 billion users of ChatGPT already. I mean, this is crazy. No technology has ever been adapted this fast. And you know, I was in Mexico recently and I was talking to an Uber driver who said his wife is a dentist and he does this on the side and he gets very side hustles and blah, blah, blah. But she does TikTok videos, kind of informational videos to support her business. And he writes the scripts using ChatGPT. And I thought, this is frankly a conversation you never would have dreamed of five years ago. Like literally a dentist doing TikTok informational videos written by and scripted by ChatGPT from her Uber driving husband, like crazy, right? So everyone's using it. So we need to be using it. And we'll see enormous productivity gains as we deploy what are essentially AI point solutions. So marketing will use in a certain way and admissions will use in a certain way and HR will use in a certain way, and they'll use different AI tools depending what they're trying to do and they all will see enormous productivity gains. Let me give you one quick example. Our marketing team of seven people produces these informational videos about attending college and they help our SEO search, positioning, etc, etc. Prior to ChatGPT, those seven people that can produce about 20 short form videos a month. Using ChatGPT today, they produce 150 a month. That's just an enormous leap, right? So we're gonna see all of that. But the authors of Power and Prediction, who happen to be three economists from the University of Toronto's Rotman School, also argue that the real power of AI happens is unleashed when you do a full system redesign. And I would argue that every university needs a sandbox with a small team, it's not a big team, who are given permission to kind of do a blank sheet of paper reinvention of the work. It could be, how do we reimagine this program in a dramatically different way, this major or some aspect of the organization. And that's what we're doing with the creation of Human Systems, which is our new public benefits company. So at SNHU, we're doing the first part, point solutions everywhere, massive impact and productivity, but the small team, the merry band of seven people in Human Systems, has been asked what if you could be unconstrained in your thinking and invent a new model of learning, a new university if you will, that keeps human relationships at the center, so human-centered, but relentlessly uses AI in every way. And that's the work that that team is setting out to do and that's the work I'll be doing after I hand over the keys to SNHU on June 30th. But I think that's, you know, university leaders have to be to really be getting smart, using the tools, encouraging people to use the tools, challenging their leaders to think about how to deploy AI within their respective area. That's the point. Solution strategy. And then creating enough of a sandbox to have some people really experimenting with more radical rethinking of what they do. Otherwise, and this is Clay Christensen's theory, right? And Clay very much influences my thinking, was a dear friend of 40 years and was on my boards. But what he would say is that if you don't want to be disruptive, disrupted, excuse me, with your incumbent work, do a great job on that, but make sure you have some other group on the boundary rethinking what the next iteration of your organization will be. And the problem is that I think most universities are built to be self-preserving entities. So the idea of could we reinvent and disrupt ourselves is a scary idea. It's the one, it's really hard to do. But we've always had this approach at SNHU at least that if we don't figure it out, someone else will figure it out and do it to us. So we might also be agents of our own change and evolution.

Kaitlin: Right. I think therein lies the complexity, right, of where we are now versus what you were saying about the future state of, you know, what are these human focused skills and what does it look like to, you know, pay teachers well or healthcare workers well and what are the in-between steps along the way that get us there? Because societally there's just so much that we'll need to change and evolve in order to get us to that next level. So it feels like we're in that exciting, opportunistic and maybe scary space.

Paul: Completely. And there will be, I'm in the camp of things, we will see, as I said earlier, massive displacement in the workforce. And they tend to put it in four buckets, there will be jobs that got obliterated. In other words, you just wouldn't put human beings on this because AI does it so much better and faster. There will be jobs that are untouched. That's the other end of the spectrum. So think, you know, if you're a dancer, you're probably not losing sleep over AI. Like, you know, AI is not going to do that. But then there's two other categories. It will be jobs that get created that don't exist today or hardly exist. So there are actually about 880,000 data science and AI-related job openings right now. And we'll see that go up because everyone's trying to find AI and data scientists. So those will grow. Now, one of the interesting questions is, will AI get really good at doing those jobs such that we're not filling them with humans? That's a legitimate question. That's not facetious. And then there's a category that's probably the bulk of the workforce, which are maybe jobs that stay today but look so dramatically different that we have a lot of work to rethink. And if I were leading an organization, I'd probably spend a lot of my time on that one. Like I know I have to hire my data scientists, AI people, but I would challenge my HR department to go through and tell me how these jobs are going to change. I suspect, I believe that in the future, big statement here, I'm probably wrong, but being a physician will look so dramatically different and doctors will spend a lot less time on diagnosis prognosis. Like what AI is really good at is prediction. What some would call with Chris Dede at Harvard would call reckoning. It's way better than us already in area after area. What AI is not good at is judgment. The example I use is AI will be much better than your physician at diagnosing your illness and also predicting the course of that illness and also giving you treatment options. And you don't want AI having a conversation with you at the end of that diagnosis saying, God forbid, hey Julian, so you have to go home and have this tough conversation with your family. Let's talk about that. Or how do you want to think about quality of life? Or what are your support systems in assessing what is your resilience? How's your emotional resilience, your psychological resilience? Are you alone in the world? Are you part of a tight-knit family and clan that I know will rally around you? Those are distinctly human questions. They are tied to judgment, right? They're tied to things that AI is not good at. And so if you're the dean of a medical school and you should be thinking 10 years out, I'm kind of like, how does the medical curriculum change? You know, we know today demonstrably that AI is better at diagnosing breast cancer than a radiologist, a malignant tumor. You do not want AI holding your hand and saying, it's okay, we'll get through this together. Like, that ain't making me feel any better, thank you very much. So maybe what this allows is for medical practitioners, health care practitioners, to actually do the thing they're not always great at, which is being human beings. Right? I mean, if you ask, visit like every survey of patients in every major health care system, the number one complaint is, I want my health care provider to know me. That's a human question. No one's saying, I want my doctor to be a better doctor. Usually say, I want my doctor to be a better human. Like stop looking at the laptop and entering data which serves the system and asked me about me.

Julian: You know, Paul, I was even thinking back to your earlier sort of framing comments about the challenges at SNHU dealing with legacy systems. And, you know, there's a part of me that even thinks, I mean, I believe that part of the problem there is similar to the doctors. You know, the engineers aren't exactly trained to be human centric. And maybe we'll have to ditch all those legacy systems or jump them and have engineers that are trained to be much more end user oriented.

Paul It may not be engineers who are writing our code for us any longer. 46% of all new code going into GitHub is written by AI. But it may be that software engineering is a much more human exercise of curating code in ways that put human beings at the heart of things. So we'll see. It's actually a very optimistic and hopeful vision of AI. And my family would accuse me of being neurotically optimistic. So I hope I'm right. I hope I'm right. Because I think it's a small window. I think we have to. I think we have it. Like I don't know if you agree with me, I can see the way we got it horribly, horribly wrong with social media and we did enormous damage to our children and our young people, everybody I would argue, our societal institutions. AI will make social media look like a day at the beach. If you've been tracking the election, recent election in Pakistan, the way that AI was used with false avatars, deep fake videos, voice impersonations, crazy stuff.

Katilin: And then what does it look like to educate people to navigate that complexity?

Paul: And you know, I think this is a series of, I've been trying to formulate this framework. I don't have it quite right, but I think we're in store for what I would call an enormous number of sort of flips when like systems that like operated very clearly in a binary get flipped on their head. So if one is that knowledge jobs which enjoy so much status and reward in our country, whether it's in finance or tech or healthcare, all of a sudden aren't worth very much, we won't want to pay very much for them because the system, the AI system can do them much better and human jobs become status focused on what we pay for. Another flip might be, Kaitlin, that if you think about journalism and the production of information, writers and editors are kind of the heart of the work. Well, when writing and editing can be increasingly done through AI at a very high level, the thing that might get actually the value of that may go down. And in a newsroom, the lowest status star right now is the fact checker, the person who says this is accurate. And in a world where we don't trust anything, veracity checking, if I can use that phrase, actually may go way up in importance. Like, what tools, what knowledge do we have to have? How do we know? How do you build systems that reassure people? So when I look at that story, I have some way of knowing that this is actually accurate and not a creation. And look, Europeans are much more proactively trying to get at this through regulation as well. Like, if you use AI in an image creation, you have to label it as AI created, right? And I think we may, the US typically is more of a Wild West show, so we'll see how we do on that front.

Julian: Well Paul, the higher ed world is very fortunate to have you and your, you know, eternal optimism and brain and experience on the task now of figuring out how do we make this work for higher ed. I guess that's, no, no, I'm quite, I feel strong, I stand behind that wind up our conversation now, how can listeners continue to follow what you're doing?

Paul: No, we've been out there talking a lot about this. We'll increase the right about it. Human Systems as an organization will sort of, we don't even have a website. We're trying not to do what so much of EdTech does, which is make huge pronouncements for what you can do. And then actually there isn't anything under the surface yet. Like then you look like, well, what is it? It's coming, you know? It's like, so we're actually trying to build, like we're actively building what we think is a dramatically different kind of learning platform and we'll sort of unveil that later in 24. We have a lot of partners who are lining up to kick the tires on it and give it a try and I think we have some distinctly different ways of thinking about. So in a world of AI tutors like Khanmigo and others, I think this is a distinctly different alternative if we get it right. That's a big F because it's what we're building is pretty ambitious and hard to do but it's exciting. So in some ways it's a little bit of a stay tuned. You know, we'll again, we'll be at ASU+GSV, which is a big for your listeners who may not know, it's a huge kind of ed tech summit that's become a go-to event in April in San Diego. We'll do a little bit of a reveal there and then by late fall though, by mid fall, we will be testing our first commercial products. And there'll be a lot to see. We'll see how close we get.

Kaitlin: That's exciting.

Paul: It is exciting. I think the need is enormous, as you well know. I mean, we have so many people for whom higher ed is either financially out of reach. It just doesn't work for them. And when we widen the aperture of the lens and look globally, I met with the Prime Minister of Rwanda in October and the Minister of Education. And there, because we are trying to do this global data consortium, they're very eager to participate. But when we describe to them how we're thinking about the learning model, what we're trying to build, I was there to persuade them, could we try? Could we pilot this with a couple hundred users in Rwanda? Because again, we're trying to get this…When you think about learning practices, they look different culturally, right? Like even soft skills assessment. So if we're talking about soft skills assessment in a US context, we're trying to train our students to look someone squarely in the eye and give them a firm handshake. In a Rwandan context, that would look disrespectful if the person on the other side of that is your elder. You're sort of actually downcast and almost literally covering your mouth in some instances. So we need to learn and sort of integrate all of this. But my point in the story was that the Prime Minister's question was not, yeah, we can give you 200 students. He's like, how fast can we have this? We have a national need and we need to roll this out. We can't build enough universities fast enough, physical universities. Which is exciting, right? But it speaks to the like, you know, by 2050, a quarter of the world's population will be in Africa. And there's an enormous need for education. So we're excited about the prospect.

Kaitlin: Well, this has been an amazing conversation. We really appreciate your time, your thoughtfulness, and a window into the world ahead, because I think for so many, we recognize that the change is upon us and navigating the uncertainty is challenging, but I think having an optimistic view is important in it. And it's really been really, really interesting to hear, you know, all of the different resources and materials that you've been pulling together that are framing your thinking around it.

Paul: Well, thank you, Kaitlin. I think of Alan Kay's famous line that the best way to predict the future is to invent it, right? Like we can wait, sit, wringing our hands, or we can get busy and try to do the best work we can, shaping it. I know you have two young kids and I am going to have a first grandchild coming in June, which I'm super excited about. I was like, we need a world that's better than the one we're in for them. And AI could make it a lot more complicated and worse, or it could open up dizzying opportunity. But we need to be proactive about shaping the positive and really mitigating against the negative.

Julian: Well, thank you so much, Paul. It's always so wonderful speaking with you. Good luck with the new venture. It's great things in store, and we look forward to tracking you and to continuing the conversation.

Paul: Well, thank you. I look forward to doing just that. It's so nice to see both of you again. Thank you for having me. I'm flattered.

Kaitlin: Thank you. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Work Forces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

Davis Jenkins is senior research scholar at the Community College Research Center and a research professor at Columbia University's Teachers College. With over four decades of experience in enhancing education and employment outcomes, Jenkins shares his insights on redesigning community colleges and the implementation of guided pathways. His work focuses on improving access and outcomes for underserved students, rethinking dual credit, and enhancing bachelor's degree transfer rates. This episode not only highlights Jenkins' significant contributions to community college reform but also explores the broader implications of these efforts on the future of education and workforce development.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in. Welcome to this episode of Workforces. Today, we're joined by Davis Jenkins, a senior research scholar at the Community College Research Center, and a research professor at Columbia University's Teachers College. Davis has over 40 years of experience working with colleges, schools, community groups, and employers in communities and states across the country to find ways to improve educational and employment outcomes for students that have been poorly served by the U.S. educational system. He is a prolific author of publications that address how to redesign America's community colleges with a specific focus on the development and implementation of guided pathways. Davis is currently leading research and advising on how to rethink dual credit as an on-ramp to college and improving BA transfer outcomes for underserved students. He's among the leading experts on community colleges in the country, and we're so excited to speak with him today. Welcome to the podcast, Davis.

Davis Jenkins: Glad to be here.

Julian: Yes, Davis, welcome. And, you know, Kaitlin got us started there with your initial background or bio, but it would be great if you could tell us a little bit more about your background and how you've come to your current work at Teachers College.

Davis: So this is my 41st year working in higher ed. I started out of college working as a speechwriter and report writer for these two guys who had pioneered management consulting for higher ed. I started working with them in 1982. In 1983, we did a big study for Governor Hunt in North Carolina who recognized that if North Carolina was to move from textile and tobacco to tech and a knowledge workforce, you needed the research triangle, but you also needed a technician workforce. And while he didn't develop the North Carolina Community and Technical Colleges, you know, he really helped improve their strength and their workforce focus. So I had been through a very elite, preppy kind of education. I knew nothing about community colleges. I fell in love with them and worked with them ever since on how to, how community colleges and public higher ed generally, and public education generally, can be rethought from what is– essentially a system of sorting by race and class, which is inequitable (but it also sorts out talent), to one that supports upward mobility by meeting the workforce needs of local community.

Kaitlin: So building on that, what are the projects that you're currently most excited about in what you're working on today?

Davis: So in 2015, Tom Bailey and Shanna Jaggers and I wrote this book called "Redesigning America's Community Colleges". And the idea was that despite a lot of effort, especially since the early 2000s of community colleges, and we were part of this, we weren't seeing big improvements in outcomes. Our diagnosis was that a lot of the efforts, again, well-intentioned, a lot of people work on these, were a very small bore focused on especially the onboarding process and what's called developmental or remedial education. We said that that's really not enough to improve outcomes at scale. We saw outcomes for small groups of students served, but not outcomes. And that basically our thesis was that to improve outcomes at scale, colleges have to redesign from the model in which they were built, which was based on the needs of the United States in the 1960s and 70s, which is to broadly improve access. And community colleges and public higher education generally was the marvel of the world to an expanded access to higher ed on a level that had never been achieved before. But in the 2000s, certainly in 2010, given, you know, economic developments, demographic, this sort of cafeteria college where there was a lot of courses and supports available, but it's really up to the students to find them and navigate themselves through was not adequate to, you know, enabling students to get where they need to go. This caught the attention of people because starting in 2011, community college enrollments started to tank. It's continued to tank and then of course it really tanked in COVID. So we've been studying over 100 colleges intensively through tracking what they're doing, the reforms they're implementing, as well as using data to look at their student outcomes. And what we found is we've seen improvements in early progression and because, they've gotten rid of hopefully Dev Ed, and replaced that by co-requisite Dev Ed. We're seeing better onboarding of students into programs. A couple of things, we're not seeing, we're still seeing problems with persistence of students. And while we're seeing improvements overall for all groups, we're not seeing closing of the gaps. We're currently writing another book, but the thesis of that is that the guided pathways ideas, which were on the, which is, you know, you help students clarify the path for a student, help them get on a path, help them complete and support learning across programs. Those were good ideas. They're hard to implement because you're basically redesigning a 60 year old, 50 year old system. And, so much of the effort was really, thus far, while we have seen marketing increases, improvements, it's been on removing barriers and not on motivating students. And there has been two little effort on three areas, which are now the focus of our work. Number one, the idea was always, and this goes back to my work with Julian and others on the career pathways, where the idea is where you start with the end in mind where the end is career path employment, that is employment that pays living wages and offers opportunities for advancement, those kind of jobs. And backward design, the education system. That's basically been the one idea of my career, which came out of actually working colleges in the 80s in areas where they were implementing quality systems, the Japanese were beating us up in manufacturing, but lots of, and so the idea was, how do you apply this to education to get rid of the prep school sorting system, right? So there are three areas we're working on now. Colleges map programs, but they didn't necessarily map them to jobs or to transfer in a major field without excess credits. They were mapping their associate of arts programs. They weren't really scrutinizing their programs, and this is hard, to make sure in their workforce areas, that they're enabling students to get living wage jobs. And Julian and I, I don't know if we invented it, but we certainly popularized the idea of stacking credentials in the nineties as part of the Career Pathways Movement. Everyone talks about it, seems like a good idea because we pushed it because it seemed like such a good idea. Turns out that there's very little stacking that goes on. Very few students who get this sort of short-term training go on to get degrees. And where it does happen in some advanced fields, but it happens like an upskilling that in like computers or certainly advanced manufacturing or engineering tech, but that happens really as part of the work and that's fine. But for underserved students and workers in low wage jobs, the kinds of certificates that community colleges and other offering them aren't even getting them that first step in these advanced fields. So, I talk about stacking credentials to learning and earning ladders. A big change that's happened since the 1990s when Julian and I began to work on Career Pathways was that increasingly, pretty much the only family supporting jobs by and large are held by people with a bachelor's degree and higher. Even living wage jobs, a living wage nationally according to MIT is $39,000. That's about $18.75 an hour. And then 1990s when Julian and I were working, you could get like an advanced certificate and get into one of those jobs. And it is true in some industries like construction, where you can get a pretty decent job, or you can get a job in welding that pays above a living wage. But I'm also interested in jobs that provide opportunities for learning and advancement. And working as a construction laborer, working in welding, well, those are great. You can't do that your whole life, generally. So this is a challenge for a community college. But they're going to need to address this challenge because their enrollment is tanking. So we say, if you want to recruit and retain students in this highly competitive environment, you have to have programs worth offering. Very briefly, the two other, the three other areas we're working on is helping students. Community college lose 40% of their students from the start because they come in and traditionally they take dev ed, which looks like high school and it's, it doesn't work. It's well intended and they're like, well, there's nothing here for me. No one's asking, what are you good at? How can you, you know, what are you interested in? Oh, you're interested in drones? You have to see Professor Alssid. He is the biggest drone nerd. And not just drones, any technology. The guy goes crazy. He works in this program and you know, you gotta meet the students there. So ask, connect. And then very importantly, and this is hard, there hasn't been enough innovation. We have to have a really inspiring, well-taught, challenging course where students are learning what we call college learning, that is. Thinking, writing, not just regurgitating information. Students don't like it. It's hard, but there's a lot of good research, much of it funded by NSF actually, that the experience of active learning is really early on is transformative. And then finally, you have to have a plan, give the student a plan that shows a path that gets to a job that pays a living wage or transfer to a major in your field of interest, because otherwise students take too many. Then you have to, the third area is we're helping, once you have that plan, schedule the courses and offer them so that students can take them when they're working and integrate working in that. And then finally, we're seeing opportunities to build these pathways down into the schools in a more equitable way using dual enrollment which has become very big in community college, the only growing segment of community college students, one in five community college students. And yet it's been very, they've taken a very laissez-faire approach to it, which is sort of like, you know, programs of privilege and random acts, random courses not tied to a program. The big area also in high school is the millions of students who are in high school CTE shockingly few of whom go on to post-secondary. Even though the certificates are great, it shows interest, they'll be able to get a little bit better job, but to get that living wage job and to get your employer to pay for your on the job training and your further education of the bachelors and beyond, you need at least an applied associate. Well, the good thing is, is that the market forces, they're just losing students, even as, you know, if this were just about technical training and skills training, community colleges, you know, community colleges and universities would go out of business. But really it is about a broader being able to think and, you know, communicate. That doesn't mean we can provide, I'm not just talking about community colleges, but universities as well, the kind of, you know, the traditional college degree that we have. But, you know, education still, pays despite what people say and I'm mostly interested in helping people get into career paths. You know there's huge and you know important work of you know helping continuing those skills but the the biggest benefit that public higher ed and public education can pay for students in society is get them into a career career path job. And that's by and large, mostly what community college do. They don't do much up school.

Julian: So Davis, as you're thinking about the future of work and learning in this country, what keeps you up at night? What are the most pressing challenges?

Davis: Well, there are challenges, but there are also opportunities. Technologies are transforming every job. And for example, in the energy area, I was just talking to folks at Southwest Wisconsin's Technical College. And they were looking at the job opportunities available through solar farms that are being built in rural areas like. But then they started to talk to employers in manufacturing, but banks, hospitals, their own campus, and realized that everyone needs these employers with these kind of core set of skills and sort of understanding to help assess and identify and implement ways to save energy. And this isn't just because of the federal funding that's available. This is, you know, people talk about that and going to have an effect. But the bigger effect is the investment private sector. So in other words, all these jobs are being transformed and the traditional job titles don't reflect these. Another example is in advanced manufacturing. Lorraine County Community College was dealing with their people who do electronics manufacturing and identified these micromechatronics skills. And they're finding they're useful across industries, not just in manufacturing, but in warehousing. They started this a decade ago, and now Intel is moving into Ohio, those jobs are going to be two hours away in Columbus. But what they found was this hole in Northeast Ohio, they didn't even know, every manufacturer needs to implement these micromechatronics technologies in their existing products and their new products. So in other words, it's being transformed. And again, those jobs, those skills aren't well defined. And then finally, AI, I mean, that's going to transform every job. The challenge is that the work is changing fast. On the other hand, it's fairly broad-based. If you're just talking about like biotech or advanced manufacturing or chip manufacturing, those places are taking relatively few places, but these are affecting jobs across industries. That's the opportunity. The challenge is to define what those are and the traditional sort of inward looking curriculum development process that we have to try to, well, meaning to try to, sure quality control doesn't work. You really have to develop a relationship, a sort of, you have to work with the employers to map out the job ladders because they're really not clear and talk with your alumni who are in these jobs, you know, not just the HR departments about, you know, how are these fields changing and what would you recommend, you know, your peers who are coming in. The point is, this is a big inflection point for, a turning point for higher ed. They've got to make big changes. And we're seeing colleges that will make those changes, and they will survive. But many are already seeing it, consolidation. So there's going to be a lot of change. And I think it's a time of opportunity.

Kaitlin: And building upon that, Davis, I think Julian and I have been talking a lot recently about the convergence of higher ed and workforce development. And where is the line drawn? Or is there a line anymore? Jjust because as you're saying, all these pathways seem to merge and come together, and that's more and more the direction that we're headed. What do you see as higher ed's role in this convergence, in this moment of change and convergence?

Davis: Many of these ideas come out of workforce development, but higher ed needs to see itself as a workforce development. The most important one. Again, if the fact is, and it's complicated, and yes, there is credential inflation and this on the other hand, and that's something we've seen accelerate. That's sort of what got me out of the career pathways or moving beyond that in the early 2000s, because when the dot-com boom hit, anyone who didn't have a bachelor's degree was sort of laid off. And since then, companies have automated. So you're gonna need to have a broad-based education. When you look at the skills that are needed, oral and written communication are not only the most desired, they're also the most valuable. Critical thinking, then I think teaching and learning by which they want to see evidence that you can learn and change. And then only then do you get to technical skills, which are important, but they have to be applied in a context. So I guess what I'm saying is higher ed has to get over this idea that it's just for education for education's sake. On the other hand, it's not just doing skills training. It's teaching people how to learn. One area where there's huge opportunity is just at University of North Texas, which is a really forward-thinking institution. Very diverse, but they've moved up in the research rankings. They're now the number three university in Texas, in Denton, Texas, northwest of Dallas. And they've done this by really focusing on the basics to recruit and retain students from underserved populations who the other universities are just sorting out, right? And so they've benefited from this. One of the big things they've been focusing on is math. And this is an area of huge interest to me because I believe you talk about workforce. We teach math. It's Sputnik era math. No one else in the world teaches it that way. It's much more applied. But basically, they recognize that the people teaching math in the intro math courses, and they have a lot of engineering and science programs there, were people with PhDs in math who have, nothing against them, but they have no teaching, training, or experience. And so their education school trained graduate students who are learning in teaching and math programs to teach these courses and alongside with the faculty. And this has been found in other random assignment studies where decorated faculty members with teaching awards are compared to graduate students or whomever that have been trained in modern cognitive teaching techniques. It really isn't rocket science, and they get much better outcomes. So that's an area where teaching and learning can come in that is profoundly impactful on workforce because teaching math in an applied way with good teaching techniques equips you to have quantitative skills that will get, just like writing skills, will get you, you'll be able to do anything.

Kaitlin: And applied in all different contexts, regardless of what the specific problem is you're looking to solve, right?

Julian: It really is that convergence of what a good traditional liberal arts program teaches with how to apply yourself. Right.

Davis: It is. But in community colleges, it's sort of not their fault. But in community colleges, in higher ed, generally it's become like an atomized smattering of courses that aren't really applied. And they have learning outcomes and the accreditation agencies. But no, you learn by doing. I mentioned Loraine County Community College. Anatomy and physiology is a required prerequisite to nursing. In some ways when you think about it, that course is a gateway to the middle class for people and nursing programs are the program in community colleges that have really for women of color, not men of color, but women of color, we can see it have truly been a path of upward mobility for low income women and women of color. It's really extraordinary, but they're still exclusive. They redesign their anatomy and physiology, which almost everywhere is taught as a lecture-heavy memorization course. The nursing faculty were saying, these students haven't retained this because it's a lecture heavy memorization course. Redesigned it as a lab course. And I talked to the faculty in this course, they're really dynamic. They've gotten much better results. The nurses, because you're learning anatomy and physiology in a lab setting, the nurses are much more happy. They've gotten uh you know many more underserved students to not just through but to master this so really have to focus on this uh learning again if this were just about skills training you know community colleges universities they're not so good at that so that but we have to think about education starting with the end in mind where the end is you've got to teach people to think, to solve problems, and you learn that through active teaching and engagement. It is hard to do.

Julian: What we should be doing to make ourselves forces on these matters.

Davis: You have so much experience and insight into helping and working with employers to define skills that I think serving as translators, as interlocutors between employers and trainers but also educators is really important because we're gonna need to figure this out. And it isn't gonna be done by looking at labor market data or even labor data on the skills, it's going to need to be a conversation. I think you guys can help translate the skills.

Kaitlin: And I was just going to say, I think it so often comes down to the deliverables, right? Like what is it on the job that you are creating? And, and again, backwards planning from that. Well, if this is the thing you need to create, what are all the skills?

Davis: Yes! If I'm a physics teacher, or I'm a, yeah, how can I teach these kinds of skills? What I was saying about the, you don't have to teach writing bio reports, but you can customize your general instruction in composition to teach how to write clinical reports. You know, if that's something people want. And it really allows for the creativity. It's not just skills training. You're not teaching critical skills. You're teaching in a way that enables students to develop critical skills, most of which requires learning by, by doing.

Kaitlin: Right. Well, and in my experience to apply it to what people are doing in a job is more practical. Like it makes the learning come to life, which is great too.

Davis: Which gets at the student motivation. So another thing we're saying is the reason students aren't completing is they're not motivated. They're not motivated first. And I'm telling you why, community college, because most of your programs aren't worth completing and they don't lead to good jobs. Many of them don't lead to good jobs or transfer in major. But motivation is also intrinsic by connecting with the drone nerds that Professor Alssid is heading. Connection, give an experiential learning. Students hate it. And we can all think of a challenging learning experience we had, we hated at the time, thought the professor was too hard, but iit was transformative. For students who've been through education where they haven't been, you know, it's been based on a, you know, rote and lots of standardized tests, it again, it's hard, it's novel, but this is what employers are looking for. People can learn in those ways and you can do it if you believe in these students and it's not easy, but you teach in an active way, especially in these foundation courses. We don't think enough about students' intrinsic motivation.

Kaitlin: Davis, you know, it's been fascinating to hear you dive more into your projects and the research that has been most current for you. How can listeners continue to learn more about your work? Where can they read more, listen more, etc.?

Davis: The work that I do is mostly capsulated under the Guided Pathways, CCRC's website, Community College Research Center. Guided Pathways and then this transitions which is sort of extending the pathway down into the schools. Building transfer pathways for baccalaureate opportunities.

Julian: And we'll include that information in the podcast notes. Great conversation, great to hear your words of wisdom. All listen to Davis and our educational system and our community college students will thrive like never before. Thank you so much.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Workforces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

MJ Ryan is Vice President for Workforce Development and Economic Opportunity at Mass General Brigham, the largest health care system in Massachusetts. She shares her transformative journey from a direct healthcare role to a pioneering position in workforce development. The discussion explores how MJ's innovative strategies and collaborative, cross-organizational efforts have helped to build a nationally recognized workforce development model. Through partnerships and a commitment to continuous learning, MJ and her team tackle workforce challenges, developing scalable solutions to address workforce challenges.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Transcript:

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin Lemoine: And I'm Kaitlin Lemoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in.

Julian: Today we're joined by MJ Ryan, Vice President for Workforce Development and Economic Opportunity for Mass General Brigham. MJ leads a system-wide team addressing high demand roles across the largest private sector employer in Massachusetts. Her team fosters collaborations with key partners and stakeholders involved in skill development and job readiness training for community residents, ranging from youth to adults, and career advancement opportunities for Mass General Brigham's incumbent workforce. MJ has co-chaired the Boston Health Care Careers Consortium since its inception in 2009. She was a member of the Massachusetts Health Care Collaborative, where she co-chaired the Direct Care Workforce Subcommittee. She sits on the Mass Hire Boston Council, the JVS Boston Advisory Council, and is a former member of the Massachusetts Business Alliance for Education. MJ Helped to launch and provide technical assistance for the CareerStat Healthcare Workforce Academy, an initiative of the National Fund for Workforce Solutions to help develop healthcare workforce development leaders and teams. And she's also worked with Business Leaders United to advocate for legislative support for national workforce development funding and system change. On a personal note, Kaitlin and I have both had the opportunity to partner with MJ over the years. She is truly a leader in workforce development and sets a model for employer best practice and workforce development. MJ, we are just thrilled to be able to speak with you today.

MJ Ryan: Thank you, Julian. And thank you, Kaitlin. It's so nice to see you again. It always feels like a home week to get back together. And also congratulations on your podcast and all the work you're doing.

Kaitlin: Thank you so much. We appreciate it. And thanks so much for joining us today. It is always so nice to be able to get together. To kick us off, can you tell us a bit about how you got into workforce development and the story of what you developed at Partners Healthcare and now at Mass General Brigham?

MJ: It's quite accidental that I find myself here, complete accident and just necessity. So back in the early 2000s, 2001, I was a director of imaging services at one of our hospitals, one of the Partners hospitals, Newton-Wellesley Hospital, and we found ourselves in a big systemwide dilemma of a rad tech shortage. And it wasn't just, it was radiology techs, it was ultrasound techs, it was MRI, CT, all of the techs. We were having a hard time keeping up with patient volume and staffing our departments. And we had to do something pretty desperate to try to fix that. The school's capacity was fairly low. And long story short is we decided as a group of leaders across the system that we would start a loan forgiveness program or a rad tech scholarship program and then try to get people interested in the field. We're able to get a Department of Labor grant that went through the Boston Private Industry Council to help dislocated workers, Boston residents, to get training and into jobs, as well as we could use it for helping incumbents who were able to raise their income and their professional status. So we went after that grant. We also had some internal funding. But then the reality was a group of volunteer radiology administrators wasn't going to make this happen because we realized quickly how much work it is. And so somebody asked me if I would write a job description and we would hire somebody. So I wrote the job description and then they said, well, why wouldn't you just do it? And I said, because I have a day job and why would I do this temporary job? And I don't know anything about it. But neither did anybody else. And I picked the straw apparently, and I was promised that if I did this for a couple of years and we got us out of this mess, you know, I'd always have my job back, which of course never really happened because this just grew. And so, again, the accident. So we ended up after a few years of learning the hard way, because I had no clue what I was doing. They decided the position report through human resources and through radiology, which was interesting. Human resources' response was "don't get in my way, we won't get in your way". I didn't have an office. I was driving around in an old Volvo with all this paperwork in the back trying to get people to be rad techs. So thankfully I met, that is how I was forced into meeting a lot of people in the workforce development system because I needed to do reporting and work with Karen Shack, Rebekah Lashman, and others from the Boston Private Industry Council, and Neil Sullivan. And so they kind of adopted me and let me hang around in their office. And I learned so much there because at least I had my people. And that's how it worked out. I worked with them. They helped me figure it out. We had a senior advisor, Harriet Tolpin, my good friend and mentor still, who helped drive the work from the MGB side, as well as the radiology folks driving it. So it was a big collaboration of people driving work that HR wasn't sure we actually needed. So it was interesting. But, long story short, within three years we saved $6.6 million in traveler [temporary staff] costs. We reduced our demand to almost nothing. We had about 200, 250 new imaging techs in the system, and I guess they would consider it a success, but I successfully pretty much worked myself out of the need for a job. Though that wasn't the case because it worked so well, we had other places with high demand coming to us and saying, okay, what about medical coding? We need that. We did a little bit of work with them, and then all the different hospitals had different needs and then we like kind of repurposed the loan forgiveness program and they could use it for their high demand areas. So I kept advising, again, accidentally as time went on I was advising on some of our community programs and working as a group with with community health as well as HR and radiology and at one point, the director of the community programs moved on to a position in New York, and suddenly I found myself overseeing the community workforce development work as well. And again, just learning over the years, mostly from community-based organizations and partners that I worked with. They were very welcoming and they were very kind to me and taught me the ropes. And then most recently, you know, I would counter, I would be coordinating with the local hospital workforce development units and departments. And I was basically central, helping with some of the most centralized programs. And then as we continue to make this, make Partners transition into Mass General Brigham, which is a more consolidated system, I'd say in 2019, 2020, we united all of the workforce development efforts into one central area, which I now oversee. And some of their team members came under the Central Workforce Development Group and their budgets came and we just grew it as a central service. Still trying to respect what is needed locally, but trying to scale things more system-wise.

Julian: So interesting to hear how you described your kind of learning and your peeps being the workforce system people. I know you from very early on in this process and didn't realize how much of that was happening because I was sort of more from the other side of the table where it looked like you were teaching them. But, hey.

MJ: I knew though I knew the health care part right because I was a leader in a clinical area. So that was a really, I can't underestimate the importance of that. That was important, not because it was me, but the idea to pick somebody from that knew the subject, at least in that small area. But then I really get out of my depth. I mean, I'm out of my depth every day now because I was a nuclear medicine tech and I knew what we needed, but now it does transfer and you do realize that bottom line is once you get the right subject matters, experts at the table, you can work with people and figure out who are the right schools and who are the right partners. And I think the most important thing is how do you get the money? How do you work with state and city and local leaders and national leaders and funders to get things done? And I learned that trial by fire with the radiology stuff and it did just transfer. But yeah, the people that I think that I communicate most directly with and understand the work best are external partners and our CBO leaders. We have such a tight system in Boston, especially since we created the Consortium, that what used to be our competitors and I would consider our really unique system in Boston because what you know typically my friend Joanne Pokaski who leads the...who's the vice president of Workforce Development for BIDMC, would normally be our competitor and the enemy, you know, but she's my on speed dial and I'm on speed dial for her. And we work with Kristin Driscoll from Boston, from Boston Children's Hospital. We work with colleagues from Boston Medical Center. So the people that at one point we will be, you know, hiding and trying to grab our staff and come up with an idea that they can't come up with, we just figure out if there's a bigger pool, we can all, you know, benefit. So we all work very closely together, which is very interesting. I probably work more closely externally than I do internally.

Julian: Yeah, that notion of partnership is really powerful, both with the other employers and with the workforce, the workforce partners. MJ, talk a little bit about the problems that you're looking to solve in your current work.

MJ: So, typical, I don't think there'd be any surprise in that health care has severe shortages, especially since COVID. So, we're trying to fill high demand roles. We're trying to increase diversity, equity, and inclusion at all levels. So employing Deb Perkul from, formerly from The Democracy Collaborative and now the Healthcare Anchor Network, would always say outside in, inside out. That's really the strategy that we're trying to follow. And we do believe that healthy communities are built on healthier economies and offering the people in our service areas the opportunity to enter and advance in a healthcare career, especially in Boston. We're the largest employer in Massachusetts, largest private employer, and we do have good jobs. They're not all great, but they're good. And the good ones can turn into great ones with the right coaching and the right work. So that's what our goal is. On the HR side, fill the jobs. But on the humanities side, help the people fill the jobs.

Kaitlin; Mass General Program is so focused and committed to these innovative workforce development efforts and among other initiatives, your work, as you said, is so focused on increasing access to higher ed and career advancement for current employees through digital learning, coaching and flexible options. So what are some of the successes and challenges that you've experienced in your work implementing these initiatives? Cause I feel like it's one thing to talk at a high level and it's a whole other thing when we get into the details.

MJ: Any start is the challenge. Any idea has 100 naysayers. So I think it was, you know, I mentioned the success we had with the rad tech program and the medical imaging scholarship, but that didn't just jump off the shelf as a good idea. I mean, when we told, you know, radiology managers that we were gonna, you know, train the housekeepers to beard techs, it wasn't always popular, but in fact you can. And so I think it's the challenge of, you wanna try something new, and you have to convince somebody that it will work. And the best way to do that for us has been through other people's money. And so that also worked that, you know, you mentioned our College for America partnership. That was fabulous. But initially, when we took the idea of College for America to Harvard, blue blood, you know, Prudential Center tower and said, this is what we're going to do. And they're like, what is that? That's not even a college. We're not…That's ridiculous and all of that. But at the end of the day, bringing in the right people who people can trust, so we brought in Kate and others from College of America who could actually, you know, speak the right language they were. You know, she was the head of the academic piece and, you know, a lawyer, she could speak-the-speak. So, you know, she could talk to the right people and convince them that it wasn't just, you know, a crazy idea that it's possible. And then from there, you know we continued to build it and we had hundreds of people get degrees and certificates from that program so that was great. Over the years, because I've been here so long, I've got a really strong relationship with funders, with colleges, with other organizations, Project HOPE, the people that are in the neighborhoods with the people we want to serve. So I think that building those and then finding the right people to copy, like Kelly Aiken, you know, when I was a member of CareerStat, well we still are members of CareerSTAT through the National Fund for Workforce Solutions, Kelly knows everybody, knows everything. So it's always like, okay, now I know Kelly. So then you know everything because as soon as I need something, I call Kelly. And thankfully now she's back in Massachusetts at UMass up in Worcester. But, you know, so the people that I've met through those, you know, through not saying no, you know, through saying yes, because I knew nothing, I said yes to everything. So, you know, I've always been able to get to the table and thankfully, you know, if you do enough right, they'll invite you again. And just learning from so many people just helped us to, you know, succeed where you weren't sure it was going to. Just knowing the right people and having the right communication.

Kaitlin: Absolutely. And building on one point you made in there about, you know, you just need the money to do these things. How have you moved some of these initiatives from being grant funded to really like institutionalizing the program and making sure it's funded year after year? And what is it? What does the process look like to make that happen?

MJ: What I have learned now is I don't chase the money. I figure out what I need to do and then find out if there's money that matches that. I've also learned it's easier for other people to manage the money and you to partner with them. So if I see something that looks like it's going to be relevant for us, I call JVS. What do you think? Do you want to go for the money and we'll work with you? Or I call Bunker Hill: what do you think? Do you want to go for the money and we'll work with you? So that you know let the people do what they do best if they have grant writers and they have the ability to manage the funding and we can work with them as an employment partner that makes the most sense to everybody stay in your lane and it works a little bit better so I've had my own grants that I've certainly managed and I'm sure there'll be more but right now I like to have like stay in our lane and what do we offer, what do they offer and how do we make that work together? We learn from our community-based partners over the years and from a lot of funding opportunities how to actually build a program that works and include the right partners to support that work. So I think it's just proving that it works, just putting up the metrics and then going through our regular budget process to try to add things as new initiatives.

Julian: So with all the bruising experiences and all this incredible body of work that you've built over the years, how do you ensure alignment and consistency as leadership and organizational changes happen, both internally within the system, and then also externally with your partners?

MJ: So this is a time where being humble does not work. So in order to keep things aligned and keep them consistent, and them moving, blowing your own horn is the way to go. So the programs have to be highly visible. You have to be able to track your metrics and your outcomes. You have to make sure they're in everybody's view. So you need to have the stories. You need to have a portfolio of success stories that you can show to people so you can prove the value at any given time. Because if somebody turns over who's a leader who respects the work, and now somebody knows there, you have to be in front of them as soon as you can to show them what the value is of the work, what you're doing, how it goes, constant and open communication internally and externally. Honesty, you know, don't blow it up if it is what it is. You know, like I just said this yesterday in one of our, going back to that EDA grant, I'm like, you know, we learned that this program doesn't have enough clinical training. Let's just say we learned it. They gave us money to try something. We learned that we need probably, we're going to train less people, but we're going to need more training for them. So we learned that, that's okay. But just being open and honest with that or if you have a partner that isn't aligned with the values of the work you're doing, you have to be honest with them, and know when to cut ties if you have to. But typically you can just work with somebody and be honest with them.

Kaitlin: If you don't mind, MJ, I just wanted to circle back on one thing you had mentioned earlier in the conversation about collaboration versus competition. And I was just really intrigued about, you know, you said like, we're all collaborating now and what a big difference that has made. I'm just wondering, along that theme, what other factors do you think really lead to that good collaboration across the system, across the city, across an industry rather than the feeling of competition? And what do you think can help breed that or foster that?

MJ: Back in 2008, the Boston Foundation launched the Allied Health Initiative. And when they launched it, they were going to select three employers, to, for whatever model they were going to propose. And their stipulation was, and you will meet regularly and talk about what you're learning. It'll be a shared learning experience, which we were like, what? Because seriously, we'd be trying to sneak a little program under the lines that nobody else would know. So we'd have the advantage, right? So we had to actually, the people that we might have seen as them suddenly became us because we all had to work together at these meetings uh... and then because that went so well there was funding put out and and the PIC [Boston Private Industry Council] used it to coordinate the Health Careers Consortium and from then and we've been working together so the Boston Foundation kind of forced us, and I would say that even when the allied health initiative was launched The Boston Foundation and others doing some research (Jeff Oxendine was involved in some of that research), In trying to design the program and the initiatives, they went to leaders who were not willing to work together, were not willing to share what they had, were holding it to the vest. And then we said, well, that's okay at their level, but at our level, if we don't start working together, we're never going to get anything done because together we can work with the schools because there's, you know, power in numbers. We can work and say, all of us need this. What can you do to help us? And so the Consortium has education, community-based organizations, and employers all at the table. And it's an interesting group because clearly there's power to either you don't want to miss it because you might lose out or for whatever reason, it's been going since like 2009 and we still get 70 or 80 members each meeting. Everybody comes and people keep being added to it. The meetings are run well. They're interesting because the PIC really helps coordinate it. It's really about we don't want to miss out and everybody just shows up. So we work with each other very closely now where, you know, I don't know if it's because you don't want to be not at the table, whatever reason, everybody's there. And we include them in what topics they'd want to know about or hear about. And so I think that, yeah, we were kind of forced to work together and it turned out pretty well. We ended up, we went from, well, I guess they're not too bad. Well, they're all right. Well, their program's okay, but ours is better, to, I wonder what they're doing about this. And now it's like, as I said, speed dial. But initially it was like that, I don't know, I'm not going to say too much, you know, and it turned into like oh they actually could be helpful.

Kaitlin: Right seeing each other as resources rather than competitors.

MJ: And then that's exponentially even more exciting when you bring it to like Kelly Aiken who brought it to CareerSTAT level and no one really thought that was going to work either. That was great, I had those people on speed dial. I'm, calling people in like Washington state and you know Kelly really created a kind national group of friends like they bring us together in various you know forums and they had great meetings, but you really get to know people and then when we did the academy you know we were all advising each other and mentoring and we really get lifelong you know colleagues and friends from from that kind of work and so Kelly saw the importance of it nationally and even then i was like eye roll what are we gonna do with that and actually ended up being quite helpful because i'm like what do i care what they're doing in California that's not gonna be Boston but i did care. It was interesting. The Boston arrogance can be tamed.

Julian: It's like note to funders, force the competitor employers to work together in your regions or nationally.

MJ: Right.

Julian: So, so MJ, what is your, you know, so this is Work Forces, this is our podcast. What's your advice regarding the one thing that each of us who cares about workforce issues should be doing regularly to make ourselves forces on these matters too?

MJ: I think I go back to visibility. And in some of it when I didn't even see because I'm not, well I didn't certainly start out very political or even knowledgeable as I said I'm a nuclear medicine tech, you know but when Business Leaders United asked me to come speak at the various you know Representatives office and the Senators offices and I'm like what am I gonna do there like I have no clue but they would take you into Washington DC and prep you and then you see over time because they really know what they were talking about so again you learn from them but you could give them on the ground like my value was I could give them on the ground stories of what we were hoping to get…well…how why it matters and why is important, and so i think initially when they asked me I'm like well that's not really my thing like I''m not gonna go sit in the senate is office and you know that's just not my thing and then they convince you to go and once you do something that you realize it is important because months down the line you see funding or initiatives that actually come out of those conversations and you realize that there is power in joining with the right people and in those meetings with like Business Leaders United, we'd have leaders of manufacturing, leaders in education, leaders in workforce and hospitals, and you got to know them and then you did feel like you had the power to talk because you think I always came out I was like I don't know enough to do that, I can't go in lobby, I don't even know, but could I speak to my experience in the hospital and what works and what doesn't maybe and so they gave you the confidence to do that so I think that you know. Number one is the visibility and the ability to speak up and be active in the forums, even if you think that you don't know, you kind of do, and work with the right people who know how to harness that and make change. So I feel like the work that we got done through National Fund for Workforce Solutions, the work that we got done through Businesses Leaders United, and Jobs for the Future and other forums, you know. Even though it might feel like it's bigger than you and it's unrelated to the little work you're doing at Mass General or whatever hospital you're at, the fact is that they can bring about change and you can help with your story. So I think it's about being visible, you know, and then also paying it back, you know, paying it forward. Like I really enjoyed the work with the Career Stat Academy because there were people that were very new to the work, and they could learn, you know, so much often from what we did wrong, often from what we didn't know, you know, because nobody goes to school for workforce development. I don't wake up one day and say I think I'll be a workforce development, you know, leader. Being around other people is important. Going to those, whether it's virtual or in person, into forums. Helping when someone contacts you and asks you about how you do things you know let them know so that you they can learn from your mistakes as well as your successes and and I think it's really important it's a very small group of people in the United States I think that do this work and and knowing each other and helping each other is very important to the people that will eventually get served.

Kaitlin: As we begin to wind down our conversation today MJ, how can listeners learn more about your work? How can they follow you, your efforts, efforts happening on workforce development at Mass General Brigham?

MJ: Well i was recommend that people go to the CareerSTAT site for the National Fund for Workforce, because they highlight our work as well as some of its older because they have something called the Frontline Champions and we were grateful to be honored that way early on, but they will describe what other hospitals are doing around the country as well as they have tools and toolkits that that people can work with. Also, the Healthcare Anchor Network does a lot of work around local hiring, and there's a lot of great examples in there of how this work gets done. For us, if you went on MGB career site, you should be able to see some of the workforce stuff. Again, we're in transition, so we have some stuff that you can see internally, and we're working on more of an external page. But eventually, if you go to MGB and careers, I think you'd find more information on what we're actually doing. My team is incredible and many of them have been with me for many years and have learned and taught me so much. And we have newer members that bring freshness to the table as well. And you know it's a very small team. We have like 13 people and we have an 82,000 person, you know, that's our staffing is 82,000 across the system, and we range from New Hampshire to Western Mass to Cape Cod and the Islands, and this little team is responsible for all of that and multiple programs. So they are like just an amazing group of people that you have to have the passion and really want to do it because it's a lot of work. So I appreciate them and I think that you know I keep trying to get them more help and hopefully I will next next year but right now they just they take it on because they want to do the work they want to help people so it's good. But also if you go to the health careers consortium Boston Health Careers Consortium website under the Boston Private Industry Council there's plenty there as well.

Julian: Well thank you so much MJ it's been such a pleasure talking with you as always.

MJ: Sure. Happy. It's always good to see you. Always good to see you guys. Kaitlin: So great to see you too. And thanks for this great conversation.

MJ: Sure thing.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Workforces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

In the opening episode of Season 2, we speak with Marlena Sessions, the director of NOVAWorks, the renowned non-profit employment and training agency in Silicon Valley. Marlena shares her extensive experience in workforce development, and emphasizes the importance of strategic partnerships, innovative approaches, and customer-focused services to address the needs of job seekers and employers in a rapidly evolving, tech-driven job market. The episode provides insights into the complexities of workforce preparation and career pathways, offering practical solutions for scaling and sustaining workforce development efforts.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Transcript:

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin:

Let's dive in. Welcome to Season 2 of Work Forces. We're so grateful to our audience for tuning in to our episodes throughout Season 1, and we're looking forward to a new exciting set of discussions in Season 2. These podcasts have prompted new thoughts and discussions in our work and online through social media, and we hope they have sparked new ideas for you, our listeners, as well. To kick off this season, we're excited to be joined by Marlena Sessions, a nationally recognized leader in workforce development. Marlena is the director of NOVAWorks, a nonprofit employment and training agency that provides customer-focused workforce development services. NOVAWorks serves a consortium of eight jurisdictions composed of the county of San Mateo, and cities in Santa Clara County. Marlena also currently serves on the California Workforce Association's Executive Committee and is on the National Advisory Committee for the John J. Heldrich Center of Workforce Development at Rutgers University. Previously, Marlena served as Senior Vice President for Grant Associates and as Chief Executive Officer for the Workforce Development Council of Seattle, King County, from 2009 to 2017. She's a strong advocate for career pathways and self-sufficiency for all and strategic talent pipeline development for all industries. Welcome to our podcast, Marlena.

Marlena Sessions: Thank you so much, Kaitlin. Great to be with you.

Julian: Welcome, Marlena. And I am proud to say, hearing your incredibly impressive bio there (thank you, Kaitlin, for the intro), that I know you, Marlena, I think back to those early days in Seattle King County.

Marlena: That's right, Julian. We've both been doing this a while, haven't we? That's right.

Julian: One of the best leaders in the workforce world and, in fact, the first that we've asked to come and speak on the podcast. So, with that said, how about if we kick this off by asking you to tell us a little bit about your story and background?

Marlena: Thank you both. Thank you, Julian and Kaitlin. Boy, I'm humbled by that intro. See if I can live up to it. I consider myself a what I would call a deep practitioner in workforce development, and always at the local and regional level. I got into it as, you know, maybe I'm a little sad to say, the workforce development field isn't something that people are ironically directed into. I got into it like most of my colleagues probably, a little bit by happenstance. But I did find myself in my 20s helping people who had been laid off. And they were, in many cases, much older than me. In some cases they were of my vintage, of my ilk, but had dropped out of high school. And I remember sitting across the table from some of these youth in particular at that very impressionable time of my career and saying, wow, these people are really smart, but they had to leave school for some reason. Maybe it was to help their family? To help support their family or life circumstances? And if not for my own great support in my life, I could be one of them. I didn't know I even had biases back then, but a lot of my biases…Why would someone drop out of high school? Why would someone get laid off from a job?...really dissipated very quickly when I started working one-on-one. And I think I was a direct service provider for about five years and then ascended into various roles in the field in terms of leadership and management, supervision, leading organizations. So I've had a very privileged career in that I find... If you know someone or you yourself have ever been laid off or close to someone, you know what a trauma that can be. You know what a journey that can be. You know how much time it can take to get to the next piece. So I have the privilege in my everyday world, whether it's at a policy level, a leadership level, or even, as I said, my early days at a very practitioner level, to help people get back on track with their career pathway one by one by one. I always say that it's probably some of the best work there is because you really can help people. And then by the one by one by one becomes tens and tens and hundreds and thousands hopefully and help communities get stronger, help economies get stronger in the world of the dignity of work. So I've had many decades of work in various fields. We talked about Seattle. Seattle was a 20 year gig at many different levels. And then I've had the privilege of just by being a bit geeky, nerdy about workforce development, and really traveling the country and looking at workforce development projects, programs, systems, cities, counties, and seeing the best of the best and some that need help. So I feel like I've really deeply studied this field and love to practice it every day.

Kaitlin: Thanks so much for that background. It's really helpful to hear just the range of experience and where it stems from and that practical one-on-one experience. You know, I can see how that would really drive a lifelong interest in this work. Can you speak a little bit to your current efforts at NOVAWorks?

Marlena: Absolutely, I would just add a little PS on that last piece there too, Kaitlin. I have always had amazing staff that I've gotten to work with, no matter where I've been in the field. It's been just a privilege. It's smart, smart people. I do, however, have a bias there as well, and I like to tease some of my policy wonkier. staff and colleagues who have very high level degrees in public policy and administration: Have you ever sat across from a job seeker who's lost their job? And if you haven't, let's make sure you do and get into that world because I think that perspective, which you just referenced that I had for the first five years of my career, really does impact meeting people where they are and seeing them where they are, and then knowing that any decisions we're making at all those higher levels can really impact people just on the ground. So to my current role, I've been at NOVAWorks for two years. We are in the heart of the Silicon Valley in California. Beautiful area. I'm happy to be here. I'm newly transplanted to the Bay Area. And the interesting work we do here, we do very great direct service. We get, believe it or not, five-star Yelp. yelp reviews. You know, who in government can ever say they actually get a Yelp review much what customers write in and give us these five stars in? So our customer service with what we call our job seeking customers and with our employers making that match, always thinking about that match, is really of the highest level. It's an interesting mix because I'm also the executive director for the Workforce Board. And as you both well know, and I'm sure our listeners do, there are about 550 workforce boards around the country, every local area, every region has one, really to set the stage and set the policy and vision for that local region of what they need for their talent pipeline, going into meeting employer needs, talent needs. So I have a dual role in terms of, we do our own direct service. I love that because we can try things, we can pilot things, we can test things. And being in innovation central here in the heart of the Silicon Valley, we better be in our own field of workforce on the innovation cutting edge. And then we can also do things that are, you know, the leadership, me staffing the board and the board themselves looking at, well, where's the field going? Where are various industries going? The other thing I'd say about the NOVA region, that's again great for me because it's challenging, but not great in some ways, is it's got vast, vast inequities. the wealthiest of the wealthy. And because my region includes the beautiful San Mateo County, the entire San Mateo County, just north of Santa Clara County, all the way up to the San Francisco Airport, SFO, there is a lot of inequity, a lot of folks who have historically been left behind, which, again, in the Silicon Valley, doesn't get necessarily enough press or talked about. And how are we, when I got here two years ago, my first aha moment was we need to get out and find people who may not know about NOVA and the great work we do, may not be in the tech field and the tech churn, maybe in lots of other industries, and have some housing issues, have some transportation issues, certainly some wage issues. So, challenging, but very, very vibrant area in terms of getting very high level tech and other industry folks who are in between jobs and right now, especially some layoffs occurring, that churn, but also getting to folks who are maybe in a... especially post pandemic, if we're out of the pandemic, getting the essential worker work, the hospitality industry, other industries that they need some help. They need some help getting onto their next job and getting to their job. Sometimes it gets that practical. So a lot of things to say about NOVA, but I would stress the customer service, the fact that I'm in a petri dish and we can try all kinds of new workforce development pilots, and then some really, really challenging economic conditions in lots of ways.

Julian: So Marlena, to kind of dig a little deeper there, what are some of the really sort of specific opportunities that you are seeing? And I am really very interested in the notion. I mean, I think in so many ways, in Seattle it was kind of the same in many respects. You know, in your current role at NOVAWorks, you really are sort of in the future of the economy where there's just this massive disparity. And everything we are hearing about AI is telling us there's gonna be more and more. So, I'm really interested to hear a bit about the opportunities you're seeing and then, in particular, that impact of being in a tech hub and how do you bridge that divide?

Marlena: Yes, absolutely. Boy, if only there was an easy answer to that question, those questions, Julian. But I would say, you know, I'm always looking for those opportunities and I always start from a perspective of strategic partnerships. And so for example, looking at folks who may never have heard of the semiconductor industry and the jobs that are available, and then looking at the opposite end of, okay, the CHIPS Act and oh wow, lots and lots of investment coming down to the private sector and where could a workforce board in the Silicon Valley fit into that model? And so seeing lots of opportunities with employers who, again, I think you both know I'm sure and I live this every day, workforce boards have a bit of a marketing and branding issue. We all have a different name. People don't know what is a workforce board. It's an odd title. And frankly there are some that have warts in the system around the country. So, one of my first opportunities that I saw with knowing that the CHIPS money was coming but knowing it wasn't necessarily coming directly to a workforce board, was to start to talk to some of the employers around this area who I knew would be applying for those CHIPS dollars, and seeing are you interested in talking about what we call incumbent worker money that the workforce board could actually invest ahead of any funds you're getting from the federal government, the US Department of Commerce, could we help you start to get your workforce ready? Could we help you with some of the community-based organization requirements in your grant, even the child care requirements in your grant? So looking at getting a little ahead of whatever curve it is. In this case, the semiconductor chip industry. And I have to say, the employers have been very receptive. While they're busy doing what they do, doing some amazing R&D, some amazing manufacturing and writing chips RFPs. They've also been very interested in starting some pilots with us. So trying to think through where might the opportunity be for a... NOVAWorks to slip in and say you know we actually have some resources too and some expertise to maybe make that match between a job seeker who doesn't know clean the manufacturing industry is, how technical manufacturing industry is, and how much opportunity is there in getting them hooked up with you while your you're doing what you do every day. So that's been one opportunity that's been very exciting. We've had some good play there. The other thing I am always looking at is what parts of the region, and again, I keep thinking about San Mateo County because there's a lot of rural areas there, are just not aware of us, and again, people who are workers or to-be workers, customers, job seekers, just don't know that we exist or how to get here. So we've been really pushing our great career advisors, I have amazing career advisors, to get out into the communities. They're going out into the libraries. They're going out intov community-based organizations to various housing places, certainly housing organizations, certainly community colleges, and being on site in a consistent way, writing the brand name of NOVA, what we do, but also just being consistent there to help people, putting workshops on, et cetera. And that's different. We've been used to, pre-pandemic, I'm told, we've been used to lines out the door at whatever centers we have and that all changed and our model pivoted. So now we're hybrid, we're more localized. We offer our customers, you can talk to us on the phone, you can talk to us on Zoom, or you can talk to us in person. And our in-person is, we'll come to you. You don't have to come to us. Well, those are a couple opportunities. Looking at both the employer side of my customer base and then the job seeker customer.

Kaitlin: Great, so you touched on this in a lot of what you just mentioned, but I guess I'm wondering what are some of the challenges that you see in your work? So I know you mentioned the wealth disparities a little bit, and then you also talked a little bit about the marketing and branding and what does it mean to be a workforce development board and how do you get that message out to people? But what are some of the challenges that you face in your work and how do you foresee going about addressing them?

Marlena: Yes, you know, I'm very optimistic. I always have been. So I always look at opportunities more than challenges. I think certainly impact and scaling up and serving more and more individuals. I would say one challenge is seeing, again, it's a very ironic kind of region. And what I mean by that is we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the state, often the very lowest, and have for several years, and yet we have the most worn notices, worn meaning layoffs above a certain level that a company is doing, a worker adjustment retraining notice by federal law, those employers who are doing bigger layoffs need to notify the local workforce board, they need to notify the local elected officials. So, on the one hand, people are employed at very high levels if you look at labor market statistics. On the other hand, hundreds of people are getting laid off. And this is that churn that I was talking about. There's a rip because of the industries, the technology churn. Life Sciences and Biotech is another one that has quite a bit of churn. Healthcare a little bit. So the challenge is keeping up with the fact that we're seeing hundreds of people getting laid off and trying to make sure that we're looking right around the corner at what other companies in their industry are hiring. And we're very successful at that, but it's at thousands and thousands of person scale right now. So it's a hurry to catch up sort of situation. And then those who aren't just churning right from one to another, those who want to either need to take a step back and get some more retraining or their skills, maybe they've been in a certain field for 10 or 15 years and they need to get some new skills, letting them get the support they need to step out a bit and get that training. So it's deep assessing each individual customer and doing that thousands of times over would be my big challenge right now.

Kaitlin: And just out of curiosity, following up on the worker adjustment and retraining notifications, I'm just curious. How far in advance do you receive those? Because I would imagine you must have to react very quickly.

Marlena: That's a very great question. And it's been a…even me at my stage of my career… getting to NOVA and seeing the numbers that we see of those worn notices has been an education for me. They have to give us some notice. And the best of the best employers give us sixty or ninety days notice and the best of the best of them let us come in with what we call our rapid response team who are ready within twenty four hours to make those connections for soon to be laid off workers are laid off workers they let us come in literally come into the company. A lot of companies don't want to do that and I can understand why. If you're a chief people officer and HR professional and you're in the middle of a big layoff do you really want to invite someone from the government, as we can sometimes be perceived, to come in and talk to your soon-to-be laid-off workers. But many do. And when that happens and we have noticed, it's amazing what we can do. The workshops we can do on resume writing, the resources we can bring to the fore, we bring people with us. We bring community and technical college training providers with us or private training providers. We bring people from the Employment Development Department about unemployment compensation. So... If an employer does give us a little bit of notice, it's amazing. But if they don't, that's okay too. We get in touch with the employer and then we get very creative about finding those workers. We do some interesting things with LinkedIn where we'll do a lot of hashtagging and letting people know the connectivity of things that we can offer, get on social media, etc. So they give us notice, sometimes not enough, but even if they do give us notice, sometimes they don't want to kind of deal with us beyond giving us the notice. But we work hard to have a trusted messenger, maybe an industry association to help us get in the door and make sure those folks get to know the wealth of resources. The other interesting thing, back to my background and my start in the field is just realizing how long it takes for someone who's laid off to get to the next job. And if they've never been laid off before and maybe they have even a nice severance package, they think, oh, I've got months and months, this will be fine. There are stages of grief. There are stages they have to go through. And so we try to get to them really quickly, even if they don't want to use our services really quickly, to plant that seed and let them know we're here. If you try some things and you don't get it as far as you want, we're here. I've had great success stories come to me at NOVA. even board members and elected officials who've said, 20 years ago I used NOVA services and it really saved me. And so we always say, we'll be here when you need us, no matter what.

Julian: Wow, yeah. You really are, as you're talking Marlena, I'm just thinking it is incredible that dual customer role: the employers and the workers, really, laid off workers, and the complexity that feeds into all of this. And you know, you bring such a rich understanding, and I do also love this sort of, and I think that's something we've always connected on, the connection between the highfalutin policy and reading the tea leaves and the practice. And so, to kind of shift us a little bit to the high reading the tea leaves end of it all, we'd love to talk a little bit about workforce funding, because there's a lot going on and it's in different realms that I'm interested to hear, we're really interested to hear your take on, you know, like let's first start with WIOA and then maybe talk a little bit about Pell and then maybe even talk about CHIPS and Science Act and, because I think that there's a lot happening out there. So yeah, your thoughts about the recent updates on we are reauthorization and how do you see it impacting your work on the ground?

Marlena: Absolutely, thank you. Well obviously, as you would hope I would, I've been following it very closely and reading all kinds of different opinions and different takes on the Stronger Workforce for America Act. You know, I'll say a couple things. One is it's in play. You know, nothing's solidified yet. The House has taken some action and it's, I would commend the House frankly, as I always do when we talk about some of these bills. It is a very bipartisan effort. There were compromises on both sides to get as far as it's gotten. Having said that, this has many steps to go through. I know there are certain sort of bullet points in that Act that a lot of my peers around the country are really reacting to. One is this thought of this requirement of the funds, the funds that 50% of the funds need to go into training. Well, who can argue against training? Nobody, of course training is a great thing. We want education and skill building and credentials and all those things.Tthe devil or the angel is always in the details. What counts as training? Is the training appropriate? Is it what industry wants and needs? So I'm a little bit more tentative and not freaking out at that thought. I think we'll see how that all plays out. I always think of the funny Harry Potter line that Ron Weasley said, is it time to panic yet? No, it's not time to panic yet. If you're worried at the local workforce board level about how am I going to come up with the funds? I mean, I think for most of us it's, well, will I have the funds to run my organization, et cetera? So, but I'll say there are several other parts of that piece of legislation that are great improvements. There's a lot of things that were looked at very hard and are being looked at, I understand, on the Senate side as well that are, you know, administrative nightmares for workforce areas and so that could be very much cleaned up. And you mentioned Pell. I think... The fact that these two things are happening at once is not a coincidence. I think that having the community and technical colleges and the workforce boards even further coordinated and joined together and partnering and mandated partnerships are good things. We want to use our country's vast community college system. We want to have those partnerships. We want to be able to, I'm speaking as a workforce board, we want to be able to influence curriculum and the delivery of programming to make sure, because I think the best of the workforce boards are very in touch with industry and can really be good translators for that. So I'm watching closely, I'm curious, interested, and I see some really good things. So I'm just, you know, you both know this, the world knows this. This is a year where a lot of things are gonna happen, 2024, at the federal level and local level. So, watching and interested, but again, it almost goes back to some of the reasons I love this field of workforce development. Who can argue with putting people to work? Who can argue with helping businesses find talent? So a bipartisan effort in these times is kind of a cool thing.

Julian: Well, while the discussions around WIOA and short-term Pell are in committee and ongoing, we do know and are seeing now the beginning of the rollout of funding through say the CHIPS and Science Act. There was an article today, a story today, in WorkShift. And what was striking was that at this point there's been, at this point there's 2.6 billion dollars allocated annually in STEM education and workforce funds, and if fully funded this is going to rival WIOA, two billion a year. And I guess the question is, so with all this kind of funding and movement and flux, and as a workforce leader, what do you see as the implications for the workforce system? And how do you position the workforce system around this?

Marlena: Right, so at a minimum, we better be right there in some great partnerships already, as I referenced earlier with some of these employers who are raking in the big bucks. At a maximum I would hope that we'd be right in there with them, helping them influence their programming, helping them recruit people. I won't mention names of companies, but there's a very large investment here in my backyard, right here in Sunnyvale, California, of an R&D facility in the CHIPS arena, the semiconductor world. And again, these companies are quite open. They have really good government relations, people officers, all kinds of folks who really understand, okay, there's things we do really well, but what's this about partnering with local community-based organizations? What's this about serving some folks who are underserved or historically left behind? What's this about having a childcare facility right on site? And again, at a minimum, I hope we're right there having these dialogues about how we can assist and partnering. So I'm not, again, we're only one. relatively small really, a workforce board, but we've got two or three pretty high level employers that are making some big inroads and we're in touch with them. So my advice to my colleagues around the country would be find those industries and maybe you're not in a CHIPS area, if you will, a semiconductor sort of area, but there are industries that are getting a lot of play through the Inflation Reduction Act, Transportation, et cetera, Commerce. Find those businesses that are even remotely attached to that and start talking to them about how you can help. And bring resources yourself. I know that sounds like bringing gold to people who are already mining gold, but I think even just a little bit of resource as a grantor speaks well for our system to be able to say, and we have resources. We want to be strategic about how we spend them, but we have resources ourselves.

Julian: Yeah. I mean, I think we may have talked about this at some point in the past, but for years I've thought of the workforce dollars, really the dollars you commit to the WIOA system, as catalytic, as leverage money, to really coalesce a lot of other resources. So I guess it's sort of just more in the pot.

Marlena: Exactly, and oh no, but you bring a great point there, Julian. And we should also be bringing to these private companies who may not know who are some of the other resources on the ground who can provide services, who can help if their new employees that they're hiring have some issues and some barriers who can help with those? Or, do they know who the workforce deans are at the various community technical colleges that can help with some training? And can we influence how those trainings are being built? So we can be a translator, we can be a resource with funds, but we can also really just be a partner, a partnership broker, I guess I'd call it.

Kaitlin: So Marlena, building upon your practical piece of advice you gave a policy and funding to what can happen on the ground through partnership. You've been a leader among workforce leaders for many years, and given this current landscape How would you suggest other workforce leaders become forces, as you have in the field? We'd love any other practical steps you might offer for our listeners.

Marlena: I'm going to be pretty blunt. Stop whining and start partnering. Start having those dialogues. I think our workforce system sometimes can say, well, wait, that money didn't come to us directly. Well, no. But does the money still exist? And could we still play a role and play an important role? I'm a big... believer in momentum, you know, sometimes if you just get a little seed money somewhere, you can show some great value and then build. So yeah, maybe it's just getting old in the tooth and I'm, you know, we've got such urgent needs, we've got so little time, we've got industry needs, we've got a community and a country that has a lot of workers who are displaced. We need to just roll up our sleeves and start figuring it out. And so. I don't spend a lot of time in those discussions anymore about, well, why didn't we and why can't we and woulda, coulda, shoulda? What can we do? Let's do it.

Julian: Well, and you've certainly, you know, talked the walk or walked the talk or whatever it is around partnering. I mean, that's really been central to your work as long as I've known you. And I think it's clearly positioned you at the forefront of the field. And as we wrap up the discussion, how can our listeners learn more?

Marlena: novaworks.org. I'm happy to always talk to anyone in the field, especially if anyone is interested in what is workforce development and how do I get into the field. Because as I do get older in my own career, I get very concerned about, do leaders even know what workforce development is? Do incumbents who might never even think about getting a role in education, training, workforce, so I'm always interested. So [email protected]. I'm happy to respond to anybody, I'm on LinkedIn. Happy to talk especially to people who are interested in this field, because I think it's an amazing field. Every morning when I walk to my office here in Sunnyvale, I get to walk past. our career advisors who are literally one-on-one meeting with job seekers. And it's just so heartening to me that I have the privilege of watching things in action and lives being changed. So I like to spread that enthusiasm and inspiration for sure.

Kaitlin: Well, thank you so much for this inspirational discussion. We learned so much and it's really helpful to hear all that you're doing. And forward to continuing to be in touch.

Julian: Thank you, Marlene.

Marlena: Thank you so much to both of you for what you do.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Workforces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

Paul Fain is a journalist and the creator of The Job. In this year-end episode, Paul discusses workforce education and training, with a focus on sectors like manufacturing, healthcare, and tech. He shares the impact of policies like the CHIPS Act on job opportunities, especially for low-income workers, and the role of community colleges in workforce development. Our conversation also explores the effects of AI and technology on jobs, the need for flexible education models, and the importance of policy and government support in these initiatives.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Workforces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in.

Julian: Today, we're excited to speak with Paul Fain. Paul is a journalist focused on the nexus between education and work. He writes The Job, a newsletter that explores these issues, and helped create a related weekly publication, Work Shift. From 2011 to 2020, Paul was a reporter and editor at Inside Higher Education. He oversaw the news outlet's coverage of low-income students, college completion, community colleges, federal policy, and emerging models of higher ed. And, Paul, I think it's fair, I believe it's fair to say that you are, if not, the preeminent writer on workforce and education and the future of work and learning. So we are thrilled to have you here and welcome to our pod.

Paul Fain: Great to be here. Good to see you, Julian. Hello, Kaitlin. And, I don't know if I'm the preeminent, but I'm one of the few. Let's put it that way. It covers these issues.

Kaitlin: Well, thanks so much for joining us, Paul. It really is a privilege to have the chance to speak with you today. To kick us off, can you tell us a bit about your story and your background?

Paul: Yeah, I was a traditional higher education trade publication journalist for about 20 years, first at The Chronicle. And, as Julian said, Inside Higher Ed for a decade. You know, really focused on the open access institutions, the underserved student populations almost entirely at Inside Higher Ed. And increasingly felt, as my editors there did as well, that this space, workforce education and training, was where a lot of the action is. It's really hard to cover. It's really hard to get your arms around. One of the reasons, as you know very well, that it's hard to make progress here is there's a lot of silos. There's education, there's K-12, there's non-traditional providers, there's employers, there's policy states, federal. So you really need a broad lens. And about, you know, mid-pandemic, I decided to go it alone and start an independent publication where I could really have the freedom to do that. And to focus on, sometimes, postsecondary pathways that aren't about traditional colleges, to really look at the whole panoply of options right now.

Julian: So Paul, when you think back on the year, what are some of the biggest trends you've seen in your reporting?

Paul: The most encouraging, exciting, where there's potential scale and money and opportunities for lower income working learners would be the new industrial policy from the federal government. You know, the Chips Act, a lot of advanced manufacturing with infrastructure money as well for EVs. So, you know, some hope on restoring that sort of manufacturing core to this country. I mean, I don't need to tell you guys again, these aren't gonna be the number of jobs we used to have. I'm from Ohio and there were a lot of jobs that you could get with a high school education that would have a family sustaining wage. But, that's probably not going to happen. But we're talking about substantial opportunities. And, what's really exciting to me about this, again, is focusing on the working learner. The, you know, CHIPS Act with Intel in Ohio, for example, they're talking about 70% of those jobs going to folks with community college credentials. So, that's where I'm focused on opportunities for folks who don't have the four year degree. And so that would be one of the biggies. And there are several others, but I don't know if you want to stop on that one for a bit.

Julian: Yeah, no, no. Well, that is a big one. And I guess a question about that is, so yes, there is substantial resource being put into the CHIPS Act. And yes, we'll be training, presumably, folks for community college, you know, credentials for those jobs. Do we have the infrastructure to do it? Are we set up to do it? Are we, you know, are we ready to take on the challenge? Paul: Yeah, I mean, I think that's with all of this. It's gonna be hard for us to build those pathways, those opportunities to identify folks who wanna do it. I mean, with all of this work, it's can we actually deliver on the workforce education? That's the linchpin to making it work. And, you know, there are some initial problems, you know, and some of the providers we're seeing, I think in Arizona, they've already started to struggle a little bit with some of their targets. That said, I don't know, I hear a lot of optimism. I, you know, in Ohio, in particular, Arizona too, you're really seeing colleges stepping up, working together, doing things differently. You know, I am cautiously optimistic that we're going to see some real opportunities for people. Good careers, family sustaining wages. What's really interesting to me though, it's like, it's not just you know, create the programs and train the people and we're good to go. It's, this is about career exploration too. Starting early, you know, it's gotten a lot of attention. But this 10-day course in Arizona, the Maricopa Community College created for semiconductor technicians, you know, 10 days, what can you really learn there? You know, a community college leader told me it's like an extended job interview. You wear the bunny suit, you know, you learn about the shifts, and you kind of figure out is this right for you. And it's bite-size, it's very affordable, it's subsidized by the industry. Those sort of, you know, we use this phrase a lot, but the on-ramps. I feel like this work will show us kind of how to do that at scale in ways we haven't seen before.

Kaitlin: Well, it's interesting to think about that across industries too. What does that look like in different industries and different models across the landscape of workforce education? I mean, are there any other examples, Paul, that you would raise? I think this Ohio example is a great one, but is there another innovative model that comes to mind?

Paul: Yeah. And I think, you know, it's funny how consistent this has been in the stories that come to me. Advanced manufacturing, healthcare, and tech. And I mean, tech careers broadly, IT help desk, data science, entry level tech jobs. Those are the three industries where you see the most urgency to fill positions, and the most likely state and federal government subsidies and employers trying creative things. So almost everything I write that seems new and exciting is in that spot. And you know I was just talking about a kind of small industry but a really exciting one, the optics manufacturing. So this is like lenses we use lenses and everything now it's so much more than you think right, and if like you get a one-year certificate or a two-year degree you're pretty much guaranteed a really well-paying job in that industry. So I was talking with Valencia College in Florida, and they've created among many kind of on-ramp programs, a 15 week program for optics technicians through their continuing ed division. And it's that same sort of thing. Like, I actually asked the folks there, like, this sounds a little like a pre-apprenticeship. You know, it's, and they didn't disagree with that. I mean, the employers are going to have to do a lot of training once those people get through that kind of initial preparation. And so, you know, that's manufacturing and manufacturing, you know, in some ways is easier, in some ways it's harder because the lessons don't transfer, right? You don't have as many portable credentials to use another jargony term. Tech is harder. I think in a lot of ways. There are a lot of interesting experiments to do things like that in tech, but it turns out that most of the good jobs are still going to people with, of course, four-year degrees. Even in a lot of the tech jobs, folks who go to selective institutions. Those experiments tend to be smaller that I write about. Health care is fascinating on many levels. You both know this, but I think you're seeing some real potential for stackability, you know for for health care providers looking to help people move from an entry level kind of allied health job into maybe nursing while they work or getting credit for what they learn, etc. So every one of those paths is different but a lot of movement on all three.

Kaitlin: As we're talking about different models, Paul, back to the Valencia College example. Are there other interesting higher ed models that have come to the surface over this past year or things that we should be keeping an eye on?

Paul: Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of jumping into a different space a little bit here, but I feel like, just like with the federal money, that frankly the industrial policy money is gonna come with strings. It's gonna be tied to sectors of high demand and usually there's performance incentives for companies and colleges to get part of that support. You're seeing that in the states too. The big, big example I think a lot of folks are watching is the new community college funding in Texas where it's carrots and sticks here. You've got 30 plus percent overall budget support increase for the Texas community colleges, but generally for credentials of value as the state's going to define them. High demand industries and data results. So, you know, I think just that model that we saw in Virginia with some of the short-term credentials where there's, you know, milestones, where the money kicks in for both the learner and the institutions, where it's ideally tied to industries, where they know there are jobs. I think that's an exciting one. It states moving ahead with investment where they know it's super high-demand for solutions that can work, and maybe driving some change in the community college sector about where to put resources, about shorter term programs, about transfer credits, etc.

Julian: Yeah, so Paul, what then are some of the challenges that you're seeing in the space? You know, maybe even beginning with the community colleges because, you know, all is not these promising practices.

Paul: No, that's true and you know it's really hard for me to get my arms around that sector which, as you both know well, is enormous. It's like 40% of undergrads, it's more than a thousand institutions. I tend to hear from the really leading edge. Folks who are willing to experiment, willing to change what they do to work really closely with industry, even on things that are controversial like curriculum development. I gather that this does not always work, that there can be a lot of resistance within community colleges. Intellectual property questions about who owns the curriculum if they do work closely with industry. Questions about transfer credit into degrees. It's hard. This is a lot of change, and it's hard for institutions. And when I ask people within the industry, how many colleges are really doing X, Y, or Z kind of best practice that people are excited about, it's usually not a lot. It's 10% overall. And I don't want to blame community colleges either. Like, I hear these incredibly sad stories of "we started this program and the employers did not hire folks." You know, the more I've gotten into this topic, we like to kind of blame. Like higher ed used to blame K-12 (still does) for academic preparation. Like, pass the buck a little bit. Now you know of course we know industry says "we don't have enough people who are skilled" blah blah blah. Well you know industry has to step up and get involved too. Like one of the things in Valencia that was so fascinating. I haven't even written this about this yet, but the optics industry program. Like they would not have been able to get this started without outside support from industry, and I believe some federal money, because the equipment is so expensive. So like they got, like apparently a lens grinder is a quarter million dollars. Like if industry and states and the federal government want those sort of programs, they have to help with equipment, with instructors. I mean, a big challenge. It turns out that high demand fields tend to be the ones where it's the hardest to hire and retain instructors, because they can get better paying jobs on the outside. So, generally it's about resources. Sometimes it's about, frankly, institutional change and really realizing that you're going to have to do things differently.

Julian: Thinking even more broadly about your reporting over the year, you've done a lot of writing about new innovations, tech startups, and I'm interested to hear, you know, sort of some of what you're seeing in that space, both successes and challenges.

Paul: You know, I feel self-conscious about trying to write about interesting experiments that are worth watching. I use that phrase a lot, even in the newsletter, and unfortunately a lot of those go belly-up. You know, one of the ones that's really a sad story and it's a complicated one. And frankly, with the demise of local media, it's sometimes hard to know what really happens on the ground. I mean, I'm in DC, I'm a national journalist. So I'm at arm's length of some of the real brass tacks of knowing what's happening. But Bitwise Industries, fascinating coding bootcamp-style model that was also an apprenticeship provider. Like I said, like the tech gigs are tough, right? So, you get trained while you're working on contracts for local companies, nonprofits, et cetera. Bitwise was focused on secondary, tertiary, metro markets. They started in Fresno. I think they had gotten up to like 12. Were in Buffalo, a bunch of interesting places. And had some real scale, like thousands of apprentices and students and complete collapse. It's pretty much gone. That was the end of that model. They got overextended. Who knows what really happened there. But the margins are tight for that sort of thing, especially, and you all know this too, like big tech retrenched in its hiring this year. Like I've heard from tech skills providers that say this was the worst year they've had, even ones who've been around since the Great Recession. And that's like a cascade effect. Like if the big tech companies are laying people off who went to Stanford, those people are going to get other jobs, you know, and it kind of ripples through the system. That said, nothing is easy on this stuff, right? There are still a lot of tech jobs. There are still a lot of tech jobs at non-tech companies. Finance, insurance, everything is a tech job. But it has been a tough cycle for folks who are trying to create alternative training pathways for tech jobs.

Julian: There's so much fluidity in the economy and in these fields. So I mean, I just think what you're describing is, in many cases, these sort of public agencies and even startups just trying to kind of continue to shift and morph to stay current and relevant and hope that the employers will continue to hire.

Paul: Absolutely. And, you know, we've learned this, something we all knew the last couple of years. It's not just the quality of your training. It's not even that and the job placement. It's helping people succeed on the job. It's the wraparound supports that are actually very resource intensive to help people get the full experience of what it's gonna be like to work in that industry while frankly probably working in another job, having kids, having transportation, basic needs problems. So these are resource intensive solutions that typically you require. Like the ones that are promising and that seem to survive, have like lots of pieces are really hard to even describe. Like there's usually public subsidies. Local agencies that help with the wraparound supports education providers, you know, like this full suite of services that tends to be the way that it works best, right?

Kaitlin: It is so incredibly complicated and then I think it makes it harder to figure out how to replicate these models. Because it's like every situation is different. Every region is different, where the dollars come from is different, I mean as you think about these different examples and the ones that have perhaps shut down or are no longer, and some that are maybe more successful. I'm curious to know about the employer role and where you see that working really well. If there are employer partnerships either with universities or other non-traditional providers where it seems like some of those supports are in place, and the connection between the provider and the employer is strong.

Paul: Yeah, definitely. I mean, again, these are, in a lot of cases nascent pathways that haven't reached massive scale. Almost everything I write about is small scale too. But you know, you do see some industries doing a lot more investment in the apprenticeship or kind of non traditional on-ramp training career opportunities. And those tend to be, you know, a lot of in finance, frankly, There are a lot of big, and I'm talking about big companies too. Big kind of tech with a small T finance companies that are trying to diversify, trying to actually make good on the dropping of degree requirements and hiring, etc. But, you know, the small employer, the mid-size employer, that's the bulk of our country. Those are harder to understand. And it's harder for me to kind of, as you say, like each market is different. I talk about this one a lot because it's such a good example. But the Marcy Lab School in Brooklyn, super cool model. Very much demand-driven, very much relationships with employers who are going to hire these folks who are going through a one-year kind of intensive liberal arts grounded college alternative for tech jobs. You know, would that model work in Phoenix or Milwaukee or you know rural Iowa? I don't know, but one of the co-founders talks a lot about how they're gonna focus on Brooklyn and New York City for right now. There's a lot of uniqueness there and there it's working, but I'm not sure that that model, like you could draw things from that model, but it's not clear that it would translate to other places. And just to give like another place where you're seeing interesting progress, I know I'm all over the place, but that's workforce education. Interesting developments in California around tech apprenticeships. And I was thinking about this because of the, you know, asking about employers. California has started to found based on each placement of an apprentice, and that apparently opens the door to the business model for intermediaries that can help make this easy for employers. Like let's be honest, if you're a small employer, like I heard an example, a security company in the Central Valley who's going to hire one or two apprentices a year, you're going to need pretty much that to be a turnkey thing where you have the vetting and pre-training, the paperwork, which apparently is a lot for a registered apprenticeship or for receiving state grants. And apparently, it's starting to work. The California community colleges are developing these. And that is definitely an experiment to watch, and one I think we'll see in other states if it works.

Julian: And not to keep jumping around, but I'd like to bring the conversation back for a minute to policy and government. Because you mentioned CHIPS Act, some of these federal dollars. We can even talk about defense, which has its ManTech initiative. There's a lot of money pouring out of Washington in one form or another that has something to do with this, ranging from Education to Labor to Commerce to et cetera. And I guess I'm just wondering, are there things we could be doing from a governmental or policy level to ensure more growth and sustainability of the kinds of workforce initiatives we're talking about? It feels a little bit like, in so many respects, this is the Wild West from the ground on high.

Paul: Yeah, that's definitely true. And, you know, it's an interesting time because in the pandemic, obviously, traditional higher ed saw that huge amount of federal support, 80 billion-ish of funding, to keep things rolling in an incredibly difficult time with an enrollment collapse, et cetera. But there is this new money. It's not 80 billion, probably, but it is, it's substantial. And, interestingly, you bring up politics and policy, it's bipartisan. I mean, everybody likes apprenticeships. I haven't yet heard someone who doesn't. You know, it's like a weird place in a kind of dysfunctional political discourse where most people see the need here and generally kind of agree on the solutions. It's wacky. And it's exciting, frankly. And you hope it stays that way. And I'm talking states, but also frankly, Congress, like they would have to do some things differently to make sure that a reauthorization of a WIOA Act actually happened in a way like you said to have some guardrails, to have some growth, to have some incentives for people to try new things. So that is a problem. But when I look at like, and Julian you and I've talked about this before, interesting time in that the Biden Administration, you know, you've got your Labor department, you've got your Education department, they're doing what they do, but now the Commerce department is taking the lead on a lot of the industrial policy investments in ways that are pretty unusual and feel fresh and new. Like there's a lot of money being spent to study the models, to figure out what bets to continue to make as this shapes up. Like, to not just throw it out there like we typically do in America. Like it's a voucher. You're a low income, stretched thin American who has gotten zero guidance on what to do. Figure it out. Get one of these grants and, hopefully, you get a job. It's looking like, even Texas, which typically is not politically the place that is agreeing with the Biden administration in a lot of things, is a very similar model, frankly, with community colleges. Like, hey, there's new money here. You're going to have to do some things to prove that it is paying off for taxpayers and students and, frankly, employers.

Kaitlin: So looking to 2024, as we rapidly approach year's end and beyond, we've talked a little bit about different industries and you've mentioned the tech industry. It's hard to think about 2024 without thinking about AI and advancements in tech. What do you think we should be paying attention to? What are you seeing? What happened in 2023, and what should we be mindful of as we go into the new year?

Paul: I'm glad you brought that up. I would be very embarrassed if we got through this without spending a good chunk of time on that. You know, like I am not, I am not an early adopter of tech. I am, I am very much an aging person who doesn't understand the modern world in a lot of ways. I will tell you this, I am bullish that this is going to be a big thing. That's the only preconceived notion I bring into my reporting on AI. I've heard enough from people who actually know things to start to see some of the applications and, frankly, the disruptions that are going to be enormous. So the hard part is what? And it literally changes by the week. But like, okay so when ChatGPT hits not even a year ago, right? And everybody freaks out and you've got this kind of general discourse of, and I'm talking in education, of like, "oh no, students are going to cheat on essays", or like big tech coverage of like the robot apocalypse, the jobs apocalypse, right? Not that much in between. I've talked to folks who are running big K-12 districts or state lawmakers who are even asking me like, hey, what should I be paying attention to? If you're asking me for that, like, oh my gosh, we're in an interesting place. One of the kind of early prognostications was that coding was going to go away. Like period. Like chat GPT can write code so can other AI tools. And so like, oh my gosh, if you're a coding school, you might as well just shut down and blah, blah, blah. That's not, it's not that easy. It never is. Right. So like what we are seeing more now, and I think is getting to be really widely accepted is you can bring an entry level coder up to a mid level with AI as a navigator, a co-pilot. So what does that do to the market for coding? And in the jobs. And if you're running a program to prepare people for that, how do you adjust for that? Like, just that profession, it's going to be really, really wild to watch the next few years. Like the New Yorker had an incredible piece, if you haven't seen it, a Requiem for Coding as a Craft, where it's just one of those things that again makes me bullish on this. Like you can see how this is playing out. Somebody who is a very sophisticated coder or software developer who realizes that his friend who is basically an amateur who plays around with it can surpass him with ChatGPT. You know, it's just there's an enormous enormous potential there. One of the estimates, and I could go on for a long time but I will stop, but like the big consulting firms, the Accentures and Deloittes, they're spending billions of dollars to help prepare companies to deal with this (entities, colleges, K-12). And one of the estimates I've seen is upwards of 40% of your hours in a job will be affected by AI in the next five years. I mean, don't even ask me what went into that. I have no idea. Maybe it's wrong, but let's say it's 20%. Okay, well, that's a big change in society.

Julian: So, Paul, sticking with that theme for a moment, what Is your advice then to the educators and trainers who may be listening to this podcast about, you know, just sort of how do they position their organizations and, you know, to really take greatest advantage of or stay ahead of or as close as possible to the curve with AI?

Paul: It's not easy to prepare for the future right now when it comes to AI. But I do think there are some historical precedents of major technological developments that we can look at for guidance here. And this kind of depends if you think like I do that this is gonna be those once in a generation, maybe once in a lifetime, maybe once even more than that, technological advancements. I mean, there's going to be a bumpy period and then, and this is again me citing people who are smarter than I am about this. And then there's a golden era of opportunity if this goes well, right? So it's getting through this time of transition. And in that phase, oftentimes privileged, wealthy people get the most opportunity out of tools. And so we have to be really mindful, obviously, of making sure that it's not just the students who attend Stanford and Georgia Tech and Duke who are getting trained in AI. Like, you know, one of the quotes I've used that I love is, AI is not going to replace your job. Somebody who knows how to use AI is going to replace you in your job. So you know, for the students being prepared for this, that's A. And making sure that it's equitable to the extent that we can. Making sure that there's state and federal funding to help community colleges meet this moment, etc. But if I was working at an institution to prepare, I would say you've really got to be flexible, you really have to question your belief system about things is enormous is like where is the human piece of something and that is really really hard. So I'm not sure how to do that, but to be able to find good information, to make very tough decisions, without kind of overreacting like that's that's what I feel like the big thing is gonna be here like you're going to have to do things differently, but you don't want to, you know, like the initial reaction of we should ban this. We saw it here in Congress, you know, like I love this example, like, okay, somebody used ChatGPT to draft something and then turned it in like a legal brief. Would you do that with an intern who is drafting? Like no. There's an overreaction element to all of this. I think for me as a journalist, as I think about next year, finding people who actually know what they're talking about on this one. Like, you know, this is going to be one of those issues that I think people who don't know what they're talking about are going to get exposed pretty quickly. And again, like things are going to move so fast, like things I don't even understand. People tell me like there were bets that smart people were making that have proven to be wrong in the last three weeks because of where some of these big companies have moved.

Kaitlin: And like you said, the pace of change is just so fast. By the time you've caught up you're behind again.

Julian: Yeah exactly but on some level I what I hear you saying is it's you know at this point these really are new tools and trying to understand, you know, how we can use them as tools while trying to keep track of what they are and how they're evolving is really all we can do.

Paul: Yeah, and I feel like, I mean, it's almost ridiculous. Whenever I talk about AI, it's like, so in the clouds, I'm like, is this, should I just shut up here? But you know, when you think about it, it's the framing of how you approach this, the open mindedness of, okay, let's call them tools. I think that's right. I really do. I think I've heard that people who are working in the space who I trust who are smart about this look at it that way. And then kind of dropping, to the extent that you can, your gut response. Like people in …I feel like right now, there's this plague in America that people have an opinion about everything. Like, tell me something and I'm gonna tell you why it's good or bad. Don't do that on this one. You know, take a beat here. Talk to some more people. Like reflect. Go go on a walk. Because this is gonna be hard. But also it's an opportunity right? Like I mean there are silver linings in a lot of this.

Julian: Oh it's massive. Well I'm getting most of my AI information from my son who is a junior coder who basically tells me that ChatGPT is freeing him up to do higher and higher order work because he just gives the scut work to GPT.

Paul: And you can see a future where that opens up opportunity for people. And that is not what we thought like eight months ago. I mean, maybe I was behind the curve on that. It's fascinating. You should definitely listen to him. He's on the front lines, right? But like, you know, radiology, I heard this from someone recently. You know, community colleges, that's a good profession. That's a good pathway for folks. It's gonna change. I mean, there's so many of them like that. Accounting, you know, on and on and on. And each one of them is very different, you know? I mean, who knows? I think about this a lot for me even. Like you have to think about it for yourself. Like my newsletter today, when I have chat GPT do drafts of things, it's not working. But I have to be open that at some point it probably will be or some tool… Like I'm already changing how I do the newsletter for sure. I had my first AI generated image as the lead art last week, and it's like just trying things and feeling like you don't have to commit fully here, but give it a shot, see if it works, and then adjust.

Julian: It really is an incredibly exciting time in our field. I mean, it's kind of amazing. We went from sleepy town to front and center. And we could argue this is a national security issue. As you say, it's apple pie, it's bipartisan. It's pretty incredible. And so Paul, as we move to wind up this discussion, how can people continue to follow your research and reporting during this very exciting time and what will probably be a blockbuster year in 2024?

Paul: I agree with that. And, you know, well, first of all, I'm bad at the self-promotional piece, but yeah, the newsletter is called The Job and it's available through its sister publication, Work Shift, which, you know, it looks like we're gonna ramp up and try to do more coverage around some of the things we've discussed. But yeah, I agree with you. This is exciting. Like, I think. Unfortunately, it's driven by societal kind of tensions where like the it's never really worked for poor people in this country, but it's really not now. And I think that's what's driving this, a global wealth and income gap that's pretty profound here, but it is global. And I think people are taking it more seriously. You know, we live in a capitalist society, so I think it's because it's going to affect a lot of other facets of society. Like corporate hiring is a challenge right now. And I think that's bringing people to the table in ways that is different. And to your point, I think it's making states think differently. Like I am shocked, and to be hopeful here again, like how similar a blue and a red state can sound on workforce development right now. And it looks like they're studying each other and that's really exciting. You know, the progress in a state like Alabama to do all of the things we've discussed. Data tools, AI, the coming together of all the silos. You know, it's gonna be really fun to see how some of this plays out and it is exciting.

Julian: Great, well, it's been such a pleasure having this conversation with you and really look forward to putting it out there. Thanks for having me, Julian.

Kaitlin: Thanks so much, Paul.

Paul: Thank you.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Workforces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

Jill Buban is Chief Growth Officer at Arizona State University's EdPlus. Buban discusses the challenges and innovations in digital education and online learning, and shares her insights on creating scalable digital teaching models, forming strategic partnerships with corporations like Starbucks and Uber, and adapting online education strategies across various institutional sizes. She emphasizes the importance of research, development, and change management in higher education.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Transcript:

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces, I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in.

Julian: Today we're excited to have Jill Buban on our podcast. A champion for adult learners, Jill's the chief growth officer at Arizona State University's EdPlus, an enterprise unit focused on the design and scalable delivery of digital teaching and learning models. Her career includes impactful roles at Ed Assist and Fairfield University, where she led significant digital education initiatives. Jill has also contributed to the Unizin Consortium and the Online Learning Consortium, and is a celebrated figure in higher education. With a PhD from Lesley University, she's been recognized as a top 100 edtech influencer. Thank you for taking the time to join us today, Jill.

Jill Buban: Thank you, Julian and Kaitlin. Wow, I think I need you to do every introduction that I have. That was great.

Kaitlin: So to kick us off today, Jill. Building from the intro, can you please tell us a bit about your current role?

Jill: Yeah, absolutely. So I have to say, I feel like I've really been blessed over the past couple of decades to learn from so many people. Julian mentioned my work at two consortiums, which led a lot to some of the work I've done in consortium building and networking and bringing people together. But just having the opportunity to meet and learn from so many people across the post-secondary and edtech space has really allowed me to not only understand the market, but see where my strengths and values are. So coming most recently from Ed Assist but Bright Horizons, which is an education intermediary company, and really being there to strategize around the opportunity for corporate America to use education benefits not only at institutions, but what it looks like to connect them to quality institutions. Built a consortium there actually of those like-minded quality institutions, and thinking about strategic outcomes at institutions. And so that was massive scale, a thread that also runs through my career, serving about half a million learners a year. So figuring out work works for adult working learners at that scale. And most recently, really excited to have joined the team at EdPlus at Arizona State University. So in my current capacity, I do work with a lot of partners still. Very proud to be working with their large corporate partner, Starbucks, as well as Uber. And then we do some other work in the corporate space as well. But also brought in to work on a team that's envisioning what it looks like to partner with other like-minded higher ed institutions to help them learn how to scale online, education technology and innovation. So it's very messy. All of what we do and Kaitlin and Julian, and I know you know this, Kaitlin, especially from your background, but innovation sounds really sexy, but it's messy. There's a lot of failing and learning from failures and then moving forward. So who better than EdPlus, who I think is globally renowned, to be able to bring their advisory services to other like-minded institutions and try to help them think about how they can innovate and scale. So that's a big part of my role. And then consulting on different marketing and enrollment initiatives and thinking really strategically how we look at what we're doing. You know, I think we tend to put growth in a box and we're growing by enrollments, but how do we grow thinking strategically around the landscape, geographically, the right students for ASU, and around our goals and programs.

Julian: Jill, can you tell us about some of the current projects you're leading and or consulting on and excited about?

Jill: Yeah, absolutely. I think I kind of mentioned I love bringing people together. So the work in terms of partnerships is really interesting to me. And it's not only bringing people together. So meaning, you know, corporate America and education and being in between and strategizing with them. But it's really thinking about these adult learners who are coming back. They're taking a chance on themselves. They're taking a chance to go back to school while balancing all that life gives them. And of course the jobs. So how can we at ASU provide them with the degrees and skills to excel, to catapult them to the next level in their profession, to make their kids you know, clap at graduation, all of those things? So, that really is exciting for me because it touches on so many of, I think, my strengths and interests. And every partner looks different. There's different objectives, you know, whether it be healthcare or Starbucks, whatever it may be. So definitely that, but I'm really excited as we continue on this journey to work with different higher ed institutions. I think there's so much value and promise there. As we see the kind of OPM market collapse, I think there are many people watching that and wondering what's happened. But I also look at so many schools that relied on this OPM model to bring their school kind of to the online market. With that kind of falling apart, an absence of any type of support. Is it a consortium that comes in to help? Is it organizations like the Online Learning Consortium, Quality Matters, but who can continue to help these schools understand how they can get into the online arena, what's right for them, and then thinking about innovation. As I said, it's messy, and what does it take to innovate? What does it take to scale? Is your school right to scale? So I'm really excited about collaborating with different institutions around those ideas.

Kaitlin: Touching on that latter project a little bit, Jill, what are you consulting on? And what are you learning across different higher ed institutions about what's working in innovation, as you think about online learning?

Jill: I have worked at different size institutions. So bringing Fairfield University online and bringing technologies and digital capabilities looks a lot different at that size school than it does at say an ASU or a SNHU or working at Ed Assisist with Western Governors and say UMGC. So every school's size and what their objectives are really kind of dictates what that innovation looks like. So how fast can you drive? How far can you go? What makes sense for that institution? A smaller institution's goals to scale online most likely shouldn't be the same size or definitely shouldn't be as a huge R1 or let's just use the big 10 schools, for example, that were in the Unizin consortium. That's probably not realistic. So it's thinking about how do you acquaint your faculty with technologies to aid in the pedagogical practices of online? And how do you scale that across multiple programs? And how do you make a plan to scale maybe number of programs, but not exponential number of students? How do you talk to institutions about what their geographic market is, right? A small north eastern school to say they're going to go into the California. California is probably not a good example. Go into a Salt Lake City or Arizona, probably not the best spend marketing-wise. So some of these strategies, I think, are really interesting. And then the whole idea around innovation, it's not just scale and best pedagogical practices. When we look at the work we're doing at EdPlus, innovation means research and design. So we're very much..ASU is very much focused on equity and inclusion as a whole university, and really solving social problems at scale. So globally, how can we work on things that will have great impact, not only for ASU learners? So I think of the work that in our hub, we're focusing on STEM. How can we solve the deficits in math and science? So that's a big part of research and development. And then we have other projects that are going on globally. But it is a lot of testing, piloting, and being able to say, this doesn't work, and trying something new. And that, bringing it to another institution and thinking about having these faculty relationships that will work with you and It's work. So it takes time. It takes that relationship building. And it takes that ability to keep on going on and moving on. And that's one example. I mean, the other that I think is so interesting is the work around UX and AI and really just continuing to test in terms of innovation, in terms of what I think part of this whole ecosystem of innovation we don't think about is the user experience, which should be at the heart, right? We're going to be approaching 100,000 students at ASU online this year, so really thinking about having that learner at the center isn't only the academics and the student support, but it's that journey that they're taking and how can that experience be most beneficial as opposed to frustrating. They're taking 15 minutes to you know, say get through an application or get through any type of learning opportunity. They could be spending that with their kids or like driving soccer practice, right? So trying to make that experience as least frustrating, ease of access as possible. In terms of, I'll just add one more thing, because I can't open my phone or anything without seeing AI, right? So I think we're all, yeah, we're like anxious to test and be able to implement and use AI, but also in a very smart way. So that's that also like, let's really test, let's understand what it means to the users. Pilot often internally. Learn what's happening before we just bring that out to a student experience. Because again, that student should be at the center. So with innovating, I guess that's a long way of saying there's a lot more than just scaling and bringing things to online. It's figuring out all of that R&D user experience and testing behind what you're bringing and why you're bringing it to the learners.

Julian: This is a tall order for many institutions, right? I mean, you've been at the center of this. You get it. You know how to do it You've seen them come and go. And I'm assuming there, I know that many of our listeners are probably like, wow, how do we become a partner? So I'm interested to hear about what is it that EdPlus is looking for in its partners? What do your ideal partners look like?

Jill: Right now we're saying, really like, I think it's very important to be a like-minded institution, very much mission aligned. So when I mentioned inclusivity, equity, and common goals, this is something that's really the basis of any partnership. But having common goals and institutions that have the desire to do some of that type of innovation work and really put the not only put the effort into that, have the teams to do that. So we're kind of looking at what does it mean to be successful? What are those, I hate to use, I know this is a dirty word in education, but what are those education products that are a great fit that we know work? And looking at this whole, like I said, ecosystem and who is a fit to think about using such an ecosystem to move forward? I'm sure we've all been in kind of partnerships that go south. So I think the big part is that evaluation. And I don't know, going on a few dates before we get engaged or sign a contract.

Kaitlin: So I'm curious to go circle back. You mentioned this concept of growth and various definitions around growth. And what does it look like? And then the connection really to innovation. And I think innovation, as you said, is so exciting, but I think sometimes we can measure it, we can think about something new and innovative and maybe not measure it the right way. Like, what does success of this new thing look like versus something that's much more established? So I'd just be curious to hear a little bit more about how you're thinking about growth and your chief growth officer role and how you think about measuring it across really different types of initiatives, some that are perhaps more defined and established and others that aren't really innovative and on the cutting edge.

Jill: EdPlus has an exceptional team. We've grown to over 700 people and the leaders of each of those people, like I'm obviously not doing this alone. When I talk to UX, we have a chief UX officer and very engaged across the leadership team and the team in general, but we have amazing people that are far and wide with all the expertise here. So it's kind of fun being in that innovation space and kind of the growth space and thinking of what can we do if this is a target for growth or if this is a concept for a partner, how can we get there? And engaging, it could be research and design, it could be our, we have an action lab that does research on almost everything we do and publishes that research. So how do we engage kind of all of the different cogs to make it move forward? In terms of growth in general, enrollment growth is set very, very high up in the institution. So that's figuring out what levers to pull to move that. And then, like I said, what I think is really important is ensuring it's not just growth that we see at some institutions, like, oh, can we get to X number of enrollments? It's how do we generate quality enrollments, people that are really ready to persist and come back, and that we can support? At our heart, ASU is a Research One institution, our degrees are taught by full-time faculty online and are the same degrees that we offer on campus. So it is a rigorous degree. And so trying to, when we think about growth, it's not just like get them in, it's how do we try to understand who the learner is and who is the best fit at ASU and who will persist. Because we know there's nothing worse than an adult deciding to come back and then having them fail quickly, and I would hate to see that. But that's just enrollment. When I think of other initiatives in terms of growth, I tend to strategize around, you know, what would it look like if we had a consortium of like-minded schools? And what's a number that could really be impactful and have shared learning experiences and conversations and start to help each other and work in that consortium way. So thinking about how do we step into goals? I mean, 20 years ago, I think I was creating my first course in Blackboard, and I always still go back to backwards design. So what do I look like two years from now, 18 months, even six months from now, and try to be realistic? And to your point, Kaitlin, everything's not huge gains. So that can be smaller. I think with corporate partnerships, to me, it's really listening to what is a partner's goal and how can we make small increments towards that goal. Never like over-promising, but really thinking about if you want a more equitable workforce, what does that look like? So that's just an example. Or if we wanna add microcredentials or non-credit, what portion of your workforce does that work for? So it's growth. So we're always saying we're adding something, but how will it actually work? Just because something's out in the mic, like I said with AI, out in our LinkedIn and everything we listen to and read about, it doesn't mean that it's applicable to everyone. So trying to make that work, I think, is part of strategic growth, not just growth.

Kaitlin: Really helpful just to hear you talk about all of the different aspects of growth. It's such a complicated topic, and I can only imagine the complexities in your role. I know. I'm thinking, oh, wow.

Julian: So speaking of complexities, then what are some of the more challenging aspects of growth? I don't know, or the lack thereof.

Jill: It's interesting. I'm a very reflective person, and I'm so grateful. I have such a great network, not only network and post-secondary ed and colleagues, but those that have become really good friends, and some that we touch base once in a while, others that I might text every day. But have this network of people to think about what are some of the challenges. And in reflecting, for me, most of these roles come with a big portion of change leadership, change management. To make growth happen, you're bringing people together to collaborate. It may not be comfortable. Um, you know, everyone has their own initiative they're driving towards, and you're asking them to be a part of something bigger or think differently. So I think the most challenging piece in my reflection is continually stepping into kind of these innovation growth mindset roles, and it's, it's a lot of change it's in, and so it's kind of being able to be more at agile in that change and identifying like maybe when it's like a wave sometimes when the wave is going to hit you. So I'd really say like that's maybe the most challenging, the challenging part. It's like bringing the unity, the collaboration around the ideas, keeping people energized and new ways of thinking.

Kaitlin: Right, that change management piece can't be understated. What does it look like to bring people along and build momentum and build buy-in?

Jill: Absolutely.

Kaitlin: The kind of thing that you can't just say, we're all going to do this now.

Jill: And to something we were talking about earlier, that's different at every institution, right? So it's understanding that culture of the institution and then how maybe do you apply certain criteria, objectives to that model. Becauseeverything's different.

Julian: There's so many variables. And from large, as you said, from large institutions to smaller and never a dull moment, I'm sure.

Jill: No.

Kaitlin: So as we start to wind down our interview, Jill, we would love to hear from you about some practical takeaways for our listeners, specifically around how our listeners can be forces in their own work as they think about innovation or growth or implementing online initiatives. You can take the question in whatever direction you want. But just what can you do to help? As we think about more the practical components and steps, what our listeners could maybe take away.

Jill: Again, like kind of in reflecting in my career and fighting like changes uncomfortable, right? So a lot of these roles have been uncomfortable. And just by way of I've been in the SUNY system, I cut my teeth, I've been at a for-profit, small private, and now ASU. So no matter the size, type, label, impression of the institution, I think number one, it's kind of like, hey, you're not crazy, you have great ideas. Don't let anyone make you feel otherwise. But find your people. There's going to be people, if you are a change agent by nature, if you are an innovator, you have a lot of ideas how things might change. Find people across the institution that you can have conversations with, or maybe first it's just within your department. And then you can maybe start being a catalyst for some of these to happen. They don't have to be at huge scale to your point earlier, Kaitlin. They can be small initiatives that can make a world of difference for learners. Right. They could, they could be changes in your, you know, LMS. It could be a matter of that or how you're structuring things in the LMS. It could be how your success coaches reach out to learners or your advisors or whatever it is. There's, I think there's always ways that higher ed can adapt to the changing landscape and it takes people to be able to be confident with those ideas and bring together like-minded people to talk them through, because there's oftentimes too that the innovators are like in the corner banging their head against the wall. So it's like finding people, but then I would also say, you know, at a certain point, I was fortunate to kind of find a group outside of my institution too. There's a great professional group called HAIL, Harnessing Academic Innovation. And I've just kind of found my people there and we can call each other, we can talk through things and that's wonderful, our Slack, we have a Slack channel. So I think it's really like to endure this kind of mindset, it's finding like-minded people and not being afraid to keep pushing forward being confident in your ideas and thoughts and keep testing them.

Julian: Yeah, so it yeah, it really is sort of building these communities both within and among

Jill: Absolutely institutions. Mm-hmm. And you find you know, there's so many ways. We could all probably name different conferences or consortiums to join and different ways to be involved. But I think that's super important too, to keep learning. I should have mentioned that in that last bit, but to keep learning. I mean, we can't be stale with our thought in order to be in this space.

Julian: So to ensure that people can keep on learning, how can our listeners follow and learn more about your work and keep in touch?

Jill: Please like reach out to me on LinkedIn, send me a message, connect. I probably have almost one conversation a week with someone I've never talked to about this space and I love to have those conversations with folks at institutions around the country. So I love to meet other people and learn about them. And if I can help along the way, that's great.

Julian :Just want to say thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation. Amazing to hear about, you know, your work, your thinking, your perspective, your new gig and good luck with it. You know, we'll definitely be following you closely and would love to double back. You know, when you have even more stories to tell about these partnerships.

Jill: Of course. Yeah, it's been good to see you guys. This was fun.

Kaitlin: Thank you, Jill, so much. We really appreciate it.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Work Forces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

Yigal Kerszenbaum is the founding managing partner of JFFVentures. JFF Ventures is an impact fund committed to investing in early-stage startups that are building innovative, tech-based solutions for worker economic advancement. In his role, Yigal has overall oversight of JFF's innovative finance and investment strategy. During our conversation, Yigal explains the impact investing space, provides examples of successful startup ventures, and offers practical advice for aspiring education and workforce tech entrepreneurs.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Transcript:

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces, I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in. Welcome to this episode of Work Forces. Today we're speaking with Yigal Kerszenbaum. Yigal is the founding managing partner of JFF Ventures. In this role, he has overall oversight of JFF's innovative finance and investment strategy. Prior to joining JFF, Yigal managed an innovative portfolio of impact investments and program related investments at The Rockefeller Foundation and was an investment professional on the private equity team at Developing World Markets. Through these roles, Yigal executed over $120 million in transactions and impact investments across multiple sectors and geographies, including the United States, Latin America, Europe, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Asia. Welcome, Yigal. We are glad you're with us.

Yigal Kerszenbaum: Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here, and I appreciate the kind introduction.

Julian: Yes, welcome to the pod, Yigal. And to kick us off, we'd love to have you tell us about yourself and your work at JFF Ventures.

Yigal: So, I am the managing partner at JFF Ventures. As Kaitlin mentioned, prior to JFF Ventures, I was managing the impact investing and program related investment portfolio at Rockefeller. And I've spent the last 16, 17 years really in the impact investing space, investing in products and tools that create access and opportunity for underserved individuals and communities. That's taken me all over the world and focused in a variety of different sectors, including inclusive finance, access to energy, and a variety of different other spaces as well. In the last six or seven years I've really been focused on U.S. socioeconomic issues and jobs, particularly quality jobs and getting people into those roles and providing them with avenues for economic mobility. This work is deeply personal to myself. I'm an immigrant to this country. My family's from Argentina. I grew up actually in South Africa, Israel, and Argentina, and we've bounced around really looking for the American dream. And while it's elusive for many, and I completely understand that, we were fortunate to move here and move into the middle class, and primarily because my parents were able to access good quality jobs. That's really been my personal journey, my lived experience, and the reason why I've spent the vast majority of my career in the intersection of finance and socioeconomic development work.

Julian: So tell us a bit about your work at JFF Ventures. And also, if you could, speak to the alignment of those efforts with Jobs for the Future and Jobs for the Future's North Star goal of helping 75 million people facing systemic barriers to advancement to work in quality jobs in the next 10 years? How does it all tie together?

Yigal: JFF Ventures is an early stage impact fund that invests in pre-seed seed stage companies at the intersection of education, workforce, and future of work, targeting solutions for low to middle income earners and workers. And so what does that mean? It means we're investing in technology and tech-enabled solutions that are helping upscale, train, connect low to middle income earning adults into better jobs and career pathways, as well as investing in products and tools that provide the wraparound support that those individuals may need along their journey. You know, we're unique in this space. There are other fund managers who are investing in education technologies and other fund managers who are investing in future of work. But we're really focused. We're unique I think in two ways. One is we're laser focused on the low to moderate income earning adults segment of the population. And also, as you noted, we are part of a larger organization called Jobs For the Future, which is a national nonprofit which just celebrated its 40 year anniversary and is very much laser focused on the same issues as we are in creating economic mobility for those who have faced systemic barriers historically. And so we are the innovative finance or the impact investing body of work that is part of a larger organization as well,with the same mission and focus. For JFF Ventures, we are currently managing JFF Ventures Fund One, which is a $25 million pre-seed stage fund. Out of that fund, we've made 45 investments to date in the areas that we discussed. And we are currently raising our second fund, which is a target $50 million fund with a similar strategy of investing in technologies that are helping individuals get the skills they need, connect to the employment, and then providing them with the wraparound supports as well.

Kaitlin: It's really interesting to hear about the alignment to JFF's work and really the focus like what makes your firm really focused on these particular like those specific efforts of low to moderate income individuals and the tech end of this really tech-enabled you know product and services. I guess I'm wondering, given that our audience includes individuals involved in education and workforce development that may or may not have exposure to the investment space, can you talk a little bit about who should be looking to play in this space and what do they need to do in order to be successful?

Yigal: You know the way we think about investing, we think about taking a step back. We're looking at the socioeconomic change we want to have or the impact we want to have at a macro level. And we're thinking about the variety of tools we have to influence that. One is obviously policy, another is grant making. But our tool at JFF Ventures is really around investing in market-based solutions. And so we and me personally, who's been in the impact investing space for, you know, 16, 17 years, would love to see others, particularly other nonprofits or other foundations get more involved within the investing space. And I think before you jump heads in, you need to understand that it's a different skill set that's required to understand and underwrite these types of opportunities. These are for profit companies. Once you do invest, you become a shareholder in the company so you do have a fiduciary responsibility that is to a different degree than if you are making a grant or supporting these companies through other philanthropic means. And so you want to make sure that internally you have the right skill sets and capabilities to one, underwrite these opportunities, but to post-investing, support these founders in their journey as they're trying to scale their companies at the end of the day. You may have to hire for those skill sets. You may have them internally, or there are a lot of different advisory firms that will support you in that journey as well. At JFF Ventures, we've been fortunate to have several foundations and other nonprofits invest in our fund as their first foray into impact investing. And so what I'm particularly excited about and been proud about is that, you know, we have a collaborative environment of different funders who are in different parts of their own journey within the impact investing space. And so they're able to learn from each other. They're learning with us. And it's kind of a safe way to dip your toe into investing. And so that's something that we recommend folks look at and think about and the different pros and cons of jumping right in.

Kaitlin: When you think about the portfolio of companies that you've invested in and potential companies you might invest in, what are some of the criteria that you look to when you consider investing in companies that might be early stage in their development.

Yigal: We're looking at four different areas, primarily. One, we're calling education technology. This is career readiness, career technical education, re-skilling, up-skilling. Basically, what are the skills you need to be successful in XYZ career? We're also investing in a second bucket, what we're calling workforce technology. And this is labor marketplaces, job search and placement, and different pathways to advancement. So what are the skills you need? How do you connect to the employment? So, you know, where the three of us may go to LinkedIn to find a job, other individuals have to go through different avenues such as manufacturing workers, hourly workers, etc. Right. And so how are we as JFF Ventures investing in those solutions? The third bucket is HR technology. And this is an evolution from our first fund and HR tech technology is really around meeting employers where they're at. So one of the lessons we learned from our Fund One over the last six years is really employers want to do things such as equitable hiring. They want to support hourly workers transitioning into full-time roles with benefits and things like that, but they don't always have the solutions on hand. So we have to invest and help scale solutions that will then be able to support a variety of enterprise level customers in that transition. And lastly, the last area of focus that we're investing in is what we're calling wraparound supports. And that's really around meeting the holistic needs of workers who require support along that continuum, which could be things like child care benefits, transportation benefits, access to finance, and things like that, that many of us take for granted. And so when you ask me, what are the things that make each one of these companies successful, there's general lessons learned, but then within each bucket, there's obviously more specific or granular things that we're looking for. But generally speaking, we're looking for entrepreneurs who have lived experience in the problem they're trying to solve. So when we're thinking about that or talking about that, we're really looking for entrepreneurs who are closer to the problem. And we think that that helps them better understand the problem, build companies that have better market fit. So we think about product market fit and we think about the time that it takes to get there. That time translates into capital at the end of the day. And so we're looking for entrepreneurs who can get there faster and more efficiently. And we're also looking for founders with that lived experience who, in our belief, gives them that extra bit of grit. And that allows them to stick with the challenges, pursue the problem to a higher degree than maybe a general founder. And this has seemed to work out well for us. We're obviously looking for solutions that can scale. Solutions that that are highly impactful. So that's kind of the first threshold. So we are an impact first fund. So I should have said that maybe out of the gate. But the first screen we have is really around, are you having an impact on the segment of the population? What is the impact? And then from there, we click down, if you will. I'm happy to provide a couple of examples of companies that we've invested in within each of these buckets. And then maybe some of those traits or characteristics of what leads to success will come out of that discussion. And so within the education technology bucket, we invested recently in a company called ChargerHelp!. And ChargerHelp! trains and hires local workforce technicians to maintain, troubleshoot, and repair public electric vehicle charging stations. This is a good example of a career that didn't exist 10 years ago. Right, EV charging stations didn't really exist. So, when we're thinking about jobs for the future, these are the types of things we're looking for. The climate justice and green transition space is a growing high in-demand space. So we know that these jobs will continue in the future. And this particular role, it's a technician role and provides for a level wage with benefits and things like that. So at the end of the day what ChargerHelp! is kind of a vertical solution. And we think that that's pretty interesting in these niche spaces. So they're helping to train individuals, certify them and then hire them or place them into EV technician roles and paying a livable wage as they do that. And so that's an interesting and exciting company that we've recently invested in within the education technology space. We've invested in a company called Anthill. And so Anthill is using AI and machine learning to better communicate with deskless workers. So I don't remember the exact stat, but as many of us know, like a lot of workers, a significant portion of workers in the US don't sit behind a desk and don't stare at a computer all day long, but they're working in machinery, they're doing hourly jobs. And how are companies effectively communicating with those individuals? How are they giving those individuals opportunities to upscale train? How are they giving those individuals benefits or information on the benefits they have and things like that? And so, Anthill has devised a solution to do that at scale in an efficient and high-impact way. And so, companies and other large entities really love that solution for those purposes. But you get the sense that each one of these examples on their own has a really interesting impact, can scale and is serving this target demographic.

Julian: Given that so many of our listeners are people who are in the public sector, the nonprofit sector, the education sector, you know, a lot of this is new to them. And part of what's so interesting about your model to me is that you're like this embed, this, you know, this business embed in a big nonprofit. And even with all the funders that are investing, that are making, sort of dipping their toes into this world of entrepreneurship. What are the challenges you're seeing as an investor in ventures that are looking to transform the future of work and learning?

Yigal: Right now, there are, candidly, a myriad of challenges. We've seen recently the US economy is in an interesting space, right? I mean, I think it feels like if you're looking at the stock market, we're doing okay. If you're looking at inflation, we're not. If you're looking at job growth, it's mixed. And so it's a bit of a confusing space right now, in a confusing place, the U.S. economy. And how that's impacted the venture space is it's made investors become less risk tolerant. And so they've held capital a bit more on the sideline. And what that does is that impacts entrepreneurs' ability to raise capital and forces them to be a lot more capital efficient. It forces them to take less risks. And so it's had some interesting impact on the venture space more broadly, but particularly for workforce and future of work. And so what we're telling our portfolio companies is definitely, you know, operate as if this last capital raise is your last. Because there's still a lot of uncertainty in the market, and we don't know how much capital is out there. So, they're really focused on getting to profitability as opposed to growth at all costs. And so those are some of the micro challenges that we're facing at the portfolio level. That said, we're still seeing opportunities within certain areas of the economy. So the green economy is an area where we are still seeing growth and a lot of investment flow. When we're thinking about the semiconductor and the CHIPS Act, there's a lot of government investment that trickles down to entrepreneurs, and so we're seeing a lot of opportunity within that space as well. And again, I think manufacturing with some of the onshore and that we've seen over the past few years is also an interesting space to be investing in and building products and tools that are meeting the needs of manufacturing workers.

Julian: Yigal, what are the challenges presented by digital and AI transformation, and especially for low age workers? I mean, I know that's a big part of the population you're looking at.

Yigal: We think of technology as a vehicle to remove barriers, you know, preventing adults from growing their talent and connecting them to meaningful work and economic opportunities. So when we think about AI, we think that there are positives that we're excited about. So we've invested in companies like Anthill that we talked about. Korbit is another AI-driven company that is providing engineers with kind of a one-on-one mentor. So it's like a, you know, a mentor that's working with you side by side next to you. And those types of solutions are interesting and have promise because they can scale at a very cost effective way and provide personalized learning to individuals who otherwise wouldn't be able to access those types of training and learning, right? And so on that side, there's a real promise and impact that personalized learning and training can have leveraging AI. I think on the flip side a lot of people are worried about, of course, how does this impact roles that individuals are in? Will it on a net reduce roles? It will certainly change roles. And as you change roles, like who's providing you know, the training required to reposition workers and allow them to flourish in this new environment? I think that raises, you know, big questions. Is it the government? Is it corporates? Is it, you know, the responsibility of individuals to do it on their own? But when you're talking about low wage workers, I mean, they're juggling a lot of different things. And so I think as a community of folks who really care about workforce development, future of work, particularly for low wage, moderate income earning adults, we have to be really thoughtful about implementing AI and how we are harnessing it for both its good and reducing the risk that it may pose as well.

Kaitlin: It's a big, it's a really complex, big question, right?

Yigal: It's a complex, big question. And I think one of the benefits of JF Adventure is like, I don't have to have all the answers. That's the good news because JFF has just launched a center for AI. And so we, you know, when I have a question around AI or when I have a question around apprenticeship or returning citizens, I kind of turn to my colleagues who are deep experts in their respective areas of work. And I say, hey, we're looking at this company. It is saying that they're, you know, doing things in an equitable AI fashion. Can you help me better understand this opportunity, you know, while we're in diligence? And so I think that's an important lesson for the listeners as well. It's very hard to be a generalist in this space that is so broad and complex. And so if you do decide to build internal investment teams or you do decide to dip your toes with investments, making sure you have the right broader talent or advisory board that can help you support in that investment decision making. Because the very first and foremost thing we try and do as impact investors is do no harm. Which already sets us apart potentially from the rest of the investment.

Kaitlin: This is a question that Julian and I talk about a lot, right? Like what does the future hold with digital transformation, with AI? And it's a, no one really, right? You read articles every day and it's like, no one really knows exactly what all this means and will amount to, but it's really helpful. I mean, it's, it's such a great insight that the connection to JFF allows for you to dig deeper on some of those questions and have, and be able to say, wait a minute, maybe I'm not the expert here, but I know some people who are and can help think through those particular questions.

Yigal: It's not always about having the answer to the question. It's very often knowing who to ask the question to that helps us in our work.

Julian: Well, but in an interesting way, as you describe your investments and portfolio, you're kind of asking a bunch of different questions.

Yigal: We are, and we are asking those questions of, you know, traditional learning spaces, higher ed, traditional higher ed. We're asking those questions of, you know, the shorter term programs. We're asking the questions of should corporates be, you know, training and providing credentials to their workers as they help, you know, ladder them up. So we really are, I mean, part of the Fund's thesis is like, you know, testing for these best high impact solutions. And really, there is no substitute for actually getting out and testing. And so that's part of our work and our impact as well.

Kaitlin: I guess as we think about impact, how long do some of these ventures have to show impact? What's the time horizon look like? Because some of the work is so hard and seeing that impact, I would imagine, can sometimes be challenging early on.

Yigal: Yeah, it's an interesting question. It's complicated, right? I think when you're an early stage founder, you're solving for so many different things. One of the things is obviously demonstrating that the product is working in the intended way and having impact. And so there are short term outputs that we can capture. Right. I think when we think about the longer term impact or outcomes, that becomes a little bit more of a time-bound measurement. So, you know, it takes a bit of time to better understand are people actually staying in their roles? Are they growing? Are they using the skills that you've provided to truly help them earn a livable wage, et cetera? And so we're measuring for things like outputs and outcomes. Outputs are things we can measure faster, outcomes are over time really. But as a founder, you're obviously interested in the impact along that entire journey. I just think there are times where you're solving for so many different things and it becomes a challenge, particularly in this environment where there is a lot of uncertainty. You may be solving for running out of cash in three to six months, in which case, you know, really focusing on the impact in this particular moment is secondary in some ways. You're really just trying to find product market fit. You're trying to sell. You're trying to build the right team. And so as an impact investor, we are investing in products and tools where the impact is embedded into the business model itself. So we're not really, we're not taking a ton of risk on like, will this product have impact? But we are also thoughtful and patient with how these companies scale and how their ability to demonstrate kind of those longer term outcomes if you will, right?

Kaitlin: Well, and the distinction between outputs and outcomes, I think is a very helpful distinction because it's like what are the short-term metrics versus the longer term outcomes or longer term impact that you'd like to see and just recognizing some of those things take a little while. So I really appreciate that distinction. Along those lines, what advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs looking to make a mark in workforce development and ed tech based on what you're seeing?

Yigal: I'd say be very passionate about the problem you're trying to solve because it's not an easy road. One of the things that we've seen, you know, my co-managing partner in the fund experience first hand, like sometimes having a co-founder is very important. You know, because it is so challenging to build a business on your own, you do have to juggle so much. We do love to see companies with co-founders so that you're sharing those duties and you can focus in your respective areas. Partnering with the right capital. You know, capital can be a commodity. But looking for your early checks to be with strategic investors or from strategic investors, I think is an important takeaway as well. Building for scale. You know, these are big problems that we're trying to solve. And so you do have to have that kind of mentality out of the get-go. How am I gonna tackle up-skilling and training for tens of millions of people? And working backwards, how am I gonna design a company that allows me to do that? And so those are the types of solutions we're looking at and the ones that we see ultimately become successful.

Julian: It's a tall order. It's really, you're asking a lot and doing incredibly important work. And so as we wind down our interview now, which really has been fantastic, how can people learn more about your work?

Yigal: The best way to learn about our work is to follow us on our newly minted LinkedIn page at JFF Ventures. We're also on the JFF website and so that's pretty easy to navigate. And we do have an email if you do want to reach out it's ventures at JFF.org. That comes to me and the rest of my team and we're always looking to partner with folks that are building in this space, partner with you know founders, and certainly others who are interested in investing. We'd welcome that opportunity.

Julian: Great, well thank you so much Yigal. Really appreciate your time.

Kaitlin: Thank you, this was a fantastic conversation.

Yigal: Thank you both, I really appreciate it and talk soon.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Work Forces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

Kelvin Bentley is the program manager of Texas Credentials for the Future, an innovative initiative within the University of Texas System that is funded by the UT System and the Strada Education Foundation. The initiative includes an extensive partnership with Coursera that offers microcredentials from tech leaders such as Meta, IBM and Google and is designed to provide students with employer-initiated and validated microcredentials to gain technical skills that they combine with their college degrees to be successful in the world of work. Kelvin discusses the Texas Credentials for the Future initiative, program successes to-date, the complexities of implementing microcredentials in a large system, and suggestions for faculty and administrators to build microcredential initiatives of their own.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Resource:

Kelvin's curated list of microcredential-related resources

Transcript:

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Workforces, I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in.

Kaitlin: We're thrilled to welcome Kelvin Bentley to this episode of Work Forces. Kelvin is the program manager of Texas Credentials for the Future, an innovative initiative within the University of Texas System. Texas Credentials for the Future is funded by the UT System and the Strada Education Foundation and includes an extensive partnership with Coursera that offers micro credentials from tech leaders such as Meta, IBM, and Google. The program is designed to provide students access to employer-initiated and validated microcredential programs to gain technical skills that they combine with their college degrees to be successful in the world of work. For over 22 years, Kelvin has led online learning initiatives as an administrator and consultant for two and four-year colleges and universities, K-12 systems, and for-profit organizations. Kelvin has received various honors, including Blackboard's 2017 Catalyst Award for Inclusive Education. and he was also selected as a Fulbright Specialist in 2010. Thank you so much for being with us today, Kelvin.

Kelvin Bentley: No, thank you. It's great to be here with both of you.

Julian: Yes, Kelvin, thank you so much. We are thrilled to be speaking with you today. Tell us about your background and give us an overview of your work, your current work.

Kelvin: Originally, I got into higher education through teaching. And so originally when I went to graduate school, I thought I was going to be a clinical psychologist. And so I went to graduate school at the University of Delaware, got my master's and PhD in that. But along the way I actually enjoyed teaching more, first as a teaching assistant, graduate assistant. And after I finished my pre-doctoral internship, I actually decided to pivot a bit and actually go into teaching. And then teaching brought me to online education actually. I was actually, several years ago, back in 2001, I had a chance to help build from scratch the first bachelor of science program in psychology, which at the time was the first of its kind in the state of Louisiana. And of course the bonus was I got a chance to live a little bit closer to my girlfriend. who's now been my wife for over 20 years. And so it's always great to have a bonus like that, right? So, yeah, it worked out on so many different levels, but other than also getting married around that time, you know, I just, I realized, you know, in that job at Northwestern State University, I realized that I actually liked the interface between technology and pedagogy. And because I had a chance to be a program manager of this new Bachelor of Science program, I really was just attracted to similar work where I could actually help lead online learning initiatives. And so that one job in a lot of different ways shaped the course of several years to come in terms of my career. And so I took on different roles after I left Northwestern State. So, you know, became a Dean initially at Baker College in Flint, Michigan. overseeing general education faculty who taught online. And then really from there, I just did other work in online education, but was really attracted to this more recent role here within the University of Texas System, because I think similar to online education, I was attracted to the fact that this particular role was about really helping students in new ways. Like online education, of course, opens doors. But I think microcredentials also do that as well. I think within our system, we're really trying to empower our students to really earn the skills and abilities that will help them make that transition from university to the world of work. I think at times that transition, for a lot of different reasons and for a lot of different people can be very challenging. Just because you have a college education doesn't necessarily mean that you'll easily find a position. And I was just really attracted by the fact that Chancellor James Milliken and the Board of Regents, you know, within our system have been so supportive of our work. And this started back in March and it's just been really great just to be in a system that is supportive of you know, trying to help our learners be successful through the use of microcredentials.

Julian: Kelvin, tell us a little bit more about the program itself, and also clarify for our audience, how do you define microcredentials?

Kelvin: Well, I think there are different, there are definitely different definitions out there. I don't think there's like a universal one. Typically, microcredentials represent some type of learning experience when you take it at its whole is less than. what we know to be like a certificate or a degree. It's usually very specified in terms of a learning experience, very specific, focused. Could be for credit or for non-credit. And really within the Texas Credentials for the Future Initiative, this was an initiative that really began with Chancellor Milliken's vision of really trying to help the system, the University of Texas System, increase the number of students who would actually be able to meet the workforce development needs of the state. There's a growing chasm between supply and demand. Employers, especially in fields like cyber security, data analytics, and also to several roles within business. There's just a growing need for folks to meet the evolving 21st century workforce. And so I feel like the Texas Credentials for the Future initiative does that by trying to provide students with the skills that they will need to align with that evolving workforce. And also just provide our UT campuses an opportunity also to reach out to adult learners, to help them with their reskilling and upskilling needs as well. And so I think we're really trying to help again students, but also the employers that partner with our campuses to really help them have the workforce that they need, which as you can imagine is a daunting task because every day there are just more and more positions that are just remaining vacant because there's just not enough people to fill them.

Julian: And your goal for the initiative is pretty ambitious. What is it like 30,000 students by 2025 or something?

Kelvin: Yeah, we do things big in Texas, including big hairy goals. And actually the Texas Credentials for the Future is supported by a grant from Strada Education Foundation. And so I would be hugely remiss if I did not mention them in this. And that particular goal aligns with that particular grant. So in 2021, we initially got a phase one Beyond Completion Challenge Grant from Strada to kind of experiment with the use of microcredentials in undergraduate courses, kind of embedding them in courses so that students would have easy access to them. And also students would then of course receive credit along with the courses themselves, but they would also have the bonus of having access to professional certificates through Coursera, which is also a vendor partner of ours. And so our students initially received access to these microcredentials through the Coursera platform. And Strada liked the work so much that we were one of four institutions that received a phase two grant, which began at the start of this year, which encourages us to scale some of our initial work. And so we're trying to reach even more students, especially students in those majors where we know they are, you know, their median salaries tend to be a lot lower than their counterparts at the same institution, as well as across institutions within our system. And so it is big, you know, luckily we have a very large system. You know, we have over you know, close to a quarter of a million students when you also include our health campuses. But with the grant, we're really focused on trying to improve the skills, those technical skills for those students in our academic campuses, which are, you know, nine of the campuses in our system.

Kaitlin: So building on that, we'd love to hear about your preliminary successes from phase one. Given I know that you said that ended I think in January, or the new phase started in January. So what are you building upon? What worked really well? And maybe what were some of the lessons learned as well as you go about phase two?

Kelvin: Yeah, I mean, I think initially our work, we found that actually, when faculty actually find ways to embed access to a professional certificate, like a Google certification in data analytics or a Meta certificate. When you actually embed it in the course, students then tend to be very motivated to actually complete it. So we actually found that out of the hundreds of students who actually ended up enrolling and then also successfully completing their microcredential, it was definitely in those cases where students actually had access in a course. Another thing that we actually noticed too is that when schools also made it available co-curricularly, for example University of Texas Arlington has a really cool program called Power Up + Tech Up and it was originally designed to actually upscale transfer students to their institution. Now it's actually been made available to any UTA student. And so when you provide even a co-curricular pathway and provide supports for those students, that also can be successful too. But embedding, we're really finding some success there. And also when you, another thing that I would say that we're noticing is that simply when you actually empower not just access for students, but when you actually provide thorough faculty development. You know, so far we've had almost a couple hundred faculty complete a fully online course on microcredentials and how to embed them. So when you make that course available, we can also provide some incentives for faculty to do that work around their busy schedules. That's where I think you can really see some success. So helping to educate faculty about the importance of this work and then providing them the time to actually, you know. integrated into their teaching. That really goes a long way such that it's not about administrators saying, hey, we need to do this. But when you actually frame it as something that could be very helpful for students, that changes everything.

Kaitlin: What does the connection to employers look like? How do you go about choosing the microcredentials and who is involved in that process?

Kelvin: Yeah, no, that's a great question. You know, each campus has their own. employers that they actually, you know, employer partners that they reach out to. And so what I'm hearing from some of our project leads locally at each of the campuses that I work with is that they are basically asking them, you know, what do you think about the fact that we're leveraging, let's say, Google certificates or, you know, from IBM, from Meta, from Google, from AWS. And I would say based on what I'm hearing from the campuses, the folks that I'm working with, they so far are receiving really positive comments from the employers. And our hope is that we'll be able to dig even deeper over time because our grant initially is for three years. And so we'll be able to also longitudinally track our microcredential earners over time just to kind of check in with them and find out, okay, post-graduation. What types of positions have you applied for? Do you feel as if the microcredential actually helped you in terms of getting that interview as well as hopefully getting a particular job? And my hope too, and this is Kelvin Bentley speaking, but my hope is that we'll also be able to follow up with employers a bit more too, and ask them from their standpoint. these students who actually have a combo platter of a traditional undergraduate degree with the microcredential, what do you think of our graduates now? Do you really want more of them to come to you with that preparation? And so definitely will have much more, I think, to report as we move forward.

Julian: So, I think one of the challenges we face in sort of more workforce aligned programming is when to cut bait. Oftentimes we'll develop programs and the economy changes and jobs go away you know, like I think of the dot-com boom where every program and their sister had to have a web development program when there were not nearly enough jobs as web developers, and with the rapid pace of tech change now, do you have in place processes for adjusting which courses are offered?

Kelvin: Right, no, that's a great question. I mean, right now, I can tell you that we'll have, I think we'll have opportunities to adjust as we move forward. You know, our existing, we have a partnership right now with Coursera that was just announced in July of this year. Now any faculty member, any staff member, any student, any alumni member across our nine academic institutions has access to a curated set of professional certificates on the Coursera platform called Career Academy. And that's an evolving catalog and I think, you know, we'll be able across our nine academic institutions to kind of track, you know, how many learners are participating in completing courses that are required to earn the professional certificate of their choice. And over time we'll be able to talk with our campuses to find out which certificates our students are signing up for. We'll be able to also talk with our campuses too about what their employers are requiring or at least strongly encouraging their new employees to have in terms of skills. And so I think that feedback from the employers will be very helpful, I think, in terms of campuses then, you know, suggesting to their students, you know, you may want to consider, like, out of all of these certificates, you may want to, again, based on your undergraduate preparation, you may want to focus on this subset within the subset, right? Just so that it's a little bit easier for students to hopefully find the right match for them. But I think that's really gonna come down to closer conversations, I think, with each campus's employer partners. I think also because Google is also a really good partner with us. We were one of their larger Grow with Google partners earlier on in this process with Texas Credentials for the Future. And, you know, text, Google also has their own consortium of employers too. And so it'll be interesting to speak with Google as well, in terms of, you know, giving your 150 employers that are really open to hiring, you know, students or learners with a microcredential from Google. You know, what are you looking for? You know, what are your needs as well? And so I think there will be different ways for us to collect information to then help us shape our strategy as a system, but hopefully shape, hopefully it'll be information that each campus can then take to shape how they will advise their students, you know, in terms of, you know, what types of preparation that they would want to provide to them.

Kaitlin: So one thing that is so impressive about this initiative is how broad it is and wide reaching. I mean, it's really looking to scale this effort, which is so exciting. What does it take to scale and integrate microcredentials across a system? What's the process been like? I understand, what do you try to leave more customized or specific to one school versus another? What do you try to do holistically across all the schools? I'd just be curious to hear more about that.

Kelvin: With something this big you have to be thinking about again, strategic, definitely having a strong strategic lens as well as a tactical lens. Because each of our campuses, even though we are a system, you know, each campus is very different, right? They have their own communities of students and employers that they work with. And so really as a system, we're trying to enable them to think through with their faculty, you know, what... what courses make the most sense. You know, as a system at a strategic level, as I mentioned before, we're trying to just provide professional development opportunities that again, previously took the form of summer, a summer course that was four weeks, fully online, where, you know, faculty were incentivized to complete the course and learn more about what microcredentials are, how to embed them in courses. That course now will evolve to be more of a self-paced course. And so starting this fall, it will be available to anyone, you know, any faculty member or staff member who wants to self-enroll. And then that will allow, hopefully, more faculty to learn about the process, about, you know, what works, you know, how do you actually do this work. And hopefully we'll see even more faculty, you know, working with, you know, hopefully. other faculty who've already done it. And, you know, we have this community of practice at a system level around microcredentials, and then campuses are developing their own, you know, their own communities of practice. And so, you know, locally, I think that will help faculty to see examples of what works. Also for them to hear directly from other faculty who've done this work about what didn't work so well and what they learned and how you can make improvements, what types of data that you wanna collect from your students. At the system level, we'll continue to kind of monitor our overall uptick of students who are signing up for these courses and we'll be able to kind of find out how many based on the larger funnel, how many are actually enrolled in courses, how many of them are actually completing. If we see a campus that's, where maybe some of the numbers are on the lower side, then that's just an opportunity for us to, you know, for me to work with our project leads to kind of find out, yeah, what are some of your challenges? And, you know, at the system level, are there some things that we can do? I think locally, I think a big opportunity as well as challenge at the same time is how do we market it to students? And I know campuses are finding like, you know, a web presence, you know, they're kind of defining maybe better the web presence that students need such that they can find all the information about their options on the Coursera platform, who to contact if they have questions. Some campuses, for example, are also making available like success coaches to kind of guide students along the way. So I think as we move forward, we'll be able to kind of monitor, you know, again, the overall, the number of learners who actually participate and then those who earn the microcredentials and then talking with our project leads, my hope is that they can give, they give us at a system level, what are they seeing boots on the ground, right? Like what are students saying? What are faculty needing to maybe do this work better? Are there additional incentives that campuses can make available to faculty? We've provided some via our grants, but of course that's finite funds, right? And so are there some additional opportunities for campuses to find other types of incentives to get even more faculty aware of this process, of this program. And my hope too is that some campuses, if it's a good fit for them, will find co-curricular options as well that maybe can even be marketed to students right when they actually start, right? Saying, hey, you know, we have access, you have access from day one of being a student with us to earn a microcredential, and here are some options that you may wanna consider now, or as you get a little bit closer to finishing up, maybe in your junior and senior year. But it's definitely going to take a village and other villages, you know, at a system level but also locally. But the great thing too, what I'm seeing is our community of practice. I think that will really help, I think, inform all of us about, again, what's working, what's not working and how we can do a better job of coming up with strategies to actually achieve our big hairy goal. And even if we don't get there in three years, I think there's a strong potential to get there in time outside of our initial grant period.

Julian: Yeah, it's a really, I mean, it is really an ambitious effort and your approach does seem to combine very well kind of the local boots on the ground faculty in the classroom with the systemic and the learning community. It's really cool how you're kind of tackling this on multiple efforts. And so I guess I'm interested to hear what words of advice. you might have for our listeners who are looking to be forces in microcredentialing efforts, you know, whether it's within their classroom or an institution or at a systemic level, because, Kelvin, you are the expert here.

Kelvin: Well, no, thanks for that, Julian. I think we're all students of this work. I really feel that it's still quite, and we say this all the time, the Wild West in terms of what's actually happening and the learnings are still for the taking in this. I think we're going to continue to learn a lot because there's still many things we, again, we all have working hypothesis about doing this work. I would say don't be afraid, doing something very small is actually a good thing. I'm really glad that we actually had some initial seed funds from... Phase one the phase one grant that we received from Strada to beyond completion challenge grant just to get started somewhere And so I would say it would be great just to set you know If schools could even find a way to set aside some initial monies to incentivize the faculty You know even over a summer to learn more about microcredentials how to embed them in courses, you know, for example, I would also A big suggestion I would have too is also talking with folks that are actively doing this work. Again, we're very happy about the work that we're trying to accomplish within our system, but we're willing to also share as much as we can with others, whether it's at a conference or also informally. So I would encourage folks to do that. Talk with myself. Talk with... You know people like Chris, you know, Cynthia Porter at SUNY system The SUNY system is doing some really interesting things University of Maine, University of Colorado Boulder, you know some really great work being done there and there's so many others. I would also take a look at you know, some of the more recent articles about micro credentials There's some interesting reports. For example, Harvard's Project on the Workforce actually just released a report on some of the lacking research on microcredentials, I would definitely check that out. Workcred also did, you know, integrating microcredentials paper, which featured us, but also other institutions. It's a really great read, and I would strongly recommend people just read that as a primer around what other people are doing, other schools. But definitely don't be afraid to start small, even if it's one course or a couple courses. And you, and you know, some of our campuses are telling us, another thing I can recommend is that if faculty want to do this work, it would be really helpful for them to be in the role of the learner. So if you are going to embed microcredentials in your courses, definitely, you know, complete a microcredential yourself, you know, whether it's in... data analytics or project management or UI/UX or in whatever field that maybe is interesting to you just so that you can learn more about what the student experience will be for your own students. That would be very helpful as well. Again, I've been finding the microcredentials community to be very open and to be very, very supportive. Some great conferences that are coming up too for folks. would be the AACRAO UPCEA conference called Convergence. The University of Colorado Boulder has their Badge Summit every summer. And then also One EdTech has their digital credential summit scheduled in February. And so that would also be a good opportunity to have some touch points with people. And then if you are a member of EDUCAUSE, EDUCAUSE has their own you know, community of practice on microcredentials as well. But if anyone, you know, has questions and they want to just find out how to get started or if they want to talk with even some of our faculty, I can definitely make some introductions and some great work is being done on the campuses. And again, I'm just, as you can tell, I'm really excited to be a part of this work. The potential is huge. And even if, you know, we don't get to 30,000 students in just two years, I think we're going to make strong strides to get there. And I'm excited just by that potential.

Kaitlin: Absolutely. Well, thank you for providing so many really practical, tangible steps and so many resources for people who are looking to, as you said, maybe take a baby step into this work or looking to scale or take a more holistic approach. It's great to know and be reminded of how many resources are out there. and what a community there is around this effort. So as we close out our podcast today, how can our listeners continue to follow your efforts at Texas Credentials for the Future?

Kelvin: Yes, well, they can definitely check out, and I can make the link available, the Texas Credentials for the Future website. We have some just basic information there, including some of our press releases to kind of keep track of us there. Anyone could reach me at [email protected]. and the K is for Kelvin, not Kevin. I just say that because for some reason, people still call me Kevin. I go by both. My mom still calls me Kevin, but it's interesting that the L goes away. But the K is for Kelvin. So, but if you email me at K, Bentley, like the car, I don't have a Bentley, but Bentley with an E at UTSystem, I'll be happy to share information. I also have a... a social bookmark site using a platform called Raindrop.io. And so I've curated a lot of different articles and reports. And so some of your listeners might be interested in that. And I can also share that link. And it's part of the notes for this interview as well.

Julian You know, really appreciate your time today.

Kelvin: Yeah, no, thank you. I appreciate you all and look forward to hearing from some of your listeners. You can also follow me on LinkedIn as well. I'm available there. but thanks for the opportunity and would love to circle back with you in another year to give you some updates.

Julian: Yeah, that'd be amazing.

Kaitlin: We look forward to that.

Kelvin: Yeah, thank you again. All right, thank you.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Workforces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.

Rollie Wesen is Executive Director of the Jacques Pépin Foundation and a professor at Johnson & Wales University (JWU) in Providence, Rhode Island. The Foundation supports culinary education through community-based culinary training networks, with a particular focus on workforce development. Rollie also teaches culinary labs and academics at JWU's College of Food Innovation & Technology. Rollie shares the mission and work of the Jacques Pépin Foundation, his approach to teaching at JWU, and how his work in these two realms authentically integrate to impact workforce development.

Please follow, rate, and review Work Forces on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you are listening. Also, please follow Kaitlin and Julian on LinkedIn.

Transcript:

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Workforces, I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in.

Julian: Welcome to the third episode of Work Forces. On today's episode, we're speaking with Rollie Wesen. He's executive director of the Jacques Pépin Foundation and a professor at Johnson & Wales University here in Providence, Rhode Island. Full disclosure, Rollie is a very close friend along with his wife, Claudine Pépin. You know, Rollie, it has been fascinating, thrilling to watch your career journey unfold. I say and I mean it that Rollie is a living, breathing, promising practitioner of workforce development and brings to life what people like me have been arguing for years. So it's really a pleasure to have you on this show.

Rollie Wesen: Great, well, I'm happy to be here.

Kaitlin: Thanks so much for joining us today, Rollie. We're so glad you can join us. To kick us off, can you please tell us a bit about your story and your background?

Rollie: I took a pretty typical path to becoming an executive chef. I got a degree in literature and then found out that I needed to get a job. And so after college, I started working in restaurants. And soon after that, I realized that what I wanted to do more than anything else was to just travel, and that the skills that I had learned in restaurants were portable skills. They were things that I could take with me anywhere I wanted to go and that they would be useful in helping me to get a job. And so that was sort of the beginning of my acceptance of my role in food service. I ended up spending 20 years working in restaurants of all different kinds. I worked my way up to some very elegant places. I worked at a one-star Michelin restaurant in London for six months. I did a stage at a three-star Michelin restaurant, La Maison Troisgros in the south of France for a few weeks. I worked in some of the finest restaurants in New York City, including Gramercy Tavern and the Rainbow Room. I worked for a lot of celebrity chefs. And basically what my experience working in all those restaurants taught me was that the hospitality community is very welcoming in a lot of ways. It's hard work, but it's very rewarding work. And as I progressed through that, and ultimately I think everyone in food service bumps up against this particular question, which is... How long do I want to keep working on my feet for 10 to 12 hours a day for six or seven days a week? And is that sustainable for the long run? And so as I started to sort of approach that question, which may be, you know, in my mid-40s, late 40s, I decided that education might be a good place for me to go. So I ended up taking a job at Johnson & Wales University here in Providence and started as a culinary instructor. I worked my way up, I got my master's degree in education, and then I went on to get my doctorate in educational leadership, and worked my way up to full professor. So I've been at Johnson & Wales now for 13 years, and teaching culinary arts to Johnson & Wales students. Concurrently with that, the other piece that is a big part of my life now is in 2016, which was the same year that I started my doctorate at Johnson & Wales, I also founded the Jacques Pépin Foundation, which in retrospect was kind of like, really, was that such a good idea to start those two things at the same time? Maybe not, maybe not. On the other hand, if I hadn't started them at the same time, I'm not sure that I would have done both of them because they were both very, very taxing for those subsequent years. And the Jacques Pépin Foundation is fully committed to this idea of supporting culinary education and supporting hospitality. When we started the foundation, we recognized, well, I should say, I went to Jacques and I said, okay, Jacques, you're one of the foremost chefs of our time. You've written 35 cookbooks. You have logged hundreds of hours on television. You're one of the most recognizable, iconic chefs of all time, perhaps. You are one of the premier educators in culinary arts of all time. What are we gonna do? We've got, we started this foundation. What are we gonna do? And I sort of presented Jacques a menu of things that we could do. I said, we could focus on food education in elementary school and food studies and food literacy, or we could support culinary education in high schools and career and technical schools that are offering training in culinary education, or we could help kids get scholarships who wanna go to university or you know, there's a whole variety of different things that we could do. We could help people who just got out of jail, you know, learn how to cook and get the skills that they need to get jobs. And he said, that's the one. That's the one that I wanna do. I wanna help people who want to work, learn the skills that they need to get a job in food service. The reason that we knew about this is because I had already been volunteering my time. So I've been working at Johnson & Wales since 2011. I was at Johnson & Wales for five six years and I had been volunteering my time at what we call a community kitchen at the Rhode Island Community Food Bank. And what that community kitchen did or offered was a twelve to sixteen week course that they offered to low-income individuals to learn basic operations in kitchens and basic fundamental skills. And I realized while I was working there is that that particular program was an enormous win-win-win. I know everybody throws that phrase around all the time, but this truly is a win-win-win in the sense that you have people that want to work who feel excluded from the workforce, who get to learn the skills that they need, and those skills that they need benefit them and their families and their communities because it enriches them, it gives them a sense of purpose, it leads to better health outcomes, it gives them the opportunity to get jobs. It benefits society because you have a person that's low income who's excluded from the workforce who is now gainfully employed in the workforce. And it benefits the industry that I love, the hospitality industry, which currently right now has one million vacancies. There are one million job vacancies in food service right now. And so food service is desperate for workers and you have these people, three, four, five million, depending on whose number you look at that are excluded from the workforce, that just need a few skills that can get a job. So I found this to be an incredibly compelling idea. It was incredibly compelling to be able to leverage all of Jacques's teachings and his role as an educator to help these people. And from a foundation nonprofit point of view, it's just an easy sell. That is, you know, if I say to somebody like, oh, I run the Jacques Pippin Foundation, they're like, oh, I've heard of him. He's the French guy. I was like, yeah. And what we do is we teach culinary skills to people who want to get jobs. And they're like, oh my God, that's so nice. And like, yeah, and we support a network of 120 organizations across the country. And they're like, oh my God. And yeah, we've given out over a million dollars in pass-through grants to these organizations all around the country. And they're benefiting not only from our curricular materials, but also money that we donate and also the validation of having Jacques' name hanging on their door. And people are like, oh my God, where do I write my check? You know, it's been really great. And it's super rewarding and super satisfying. And I just feel really great about where we're at with the foundation and what I've been able to accomplish at Johnson & Wales as well.

Julian: It's incredible what you've geared up in such a short time. Tell us about some of the successes you're seeing in the work with the foundation.

Rollie: Yeah, I mean, it's pretty spectacular. All of these organizations that we support, and like I said, We support a network of over 120. Our network partner is called Catalyst Kitchens. And Catalyst Kitchens is a program, now an independent, freestanding nonprofit, that offers consulting services and shares best practices within the network. So individual organizations subscribe to Catalyst Kitchens and then they get this whole host of benefits. One of the benefits that they get is that they get introduced to us and we have the potential to offer them grant money and offer them cookbooks and offer them videos and offer them other instructional materials and curricular materials. What's interesting is that every one of these community kitchens is very individual. They have their own perspective on what's important to them in their community. For example, we support the Pittsburgh Community Kitchen and 99 percent of their student clients are previously incarcerated. So they're a pipeline out of jail into the workforce. We support Hot Bread Kitchen in New York City and 99% of their student clients are immigrant women who actually want to use the skills that they have already to become entrepreneurs. And many of them go on to like open their own bakeries and open their own restaurants with the skills that they brought with them. And every one of these organizations is different. We support the Mat-Su Housing Coalition in Alaska. And that's all in support of Native Americans who are trying to find work and get training so that they can get jobs. And so it really varies quite a lot from organization to organization. Generally, their success rates are super high. They have, I would say, in the neighborhood of 60 to 70% completion rate for their 12 to 16 week programs. And all of them, I believe, have a 90% or above placement rate of their students. So the cohorts are relatively small. The cohorts can be anywhere from like eight to 20. And there aren't very many of these organizations that manage more than three cohorts in a year. So we're really only talking about like 50 students per program per year. But the success rate is super high. Of those 50 students, they're all finishing the program and they're all getting placed in gainful employment.

Julian: What are the challenges these organizations these organizations are facing and that you're seeing from your seat?

Rollie: Yeah, so, I mean, there's a lot of different kinds of challenges. In fact, the culinary training part is the easy part. When you get the students into the kitchen, they love to be in the kitchen and they love to play with food. And it's usually pretty easy for most of these organizations to attract a chef or an instructor who wants to be there with them to do that work. It's pretty easy to find people who have talent and skills to do that work in that all of the culinary programs at the art institutes around the country closed in the last five years. Many other large schools have shut down. There's lots of chefs like me who are tired of working in restaurants who wanna do something good and useful and productive and helping society that are available to teach in these kitchens. So that part is actually the easy part. The harder part is that all of these programs also offer life skills training. So there's a little bit of gen ed in there. There's how to write a resume. And there's, some of them it's down to like how to take care of yourself. Like they offer, FareStart in Seattle has a whole closet of toiletries and other sundry items that they're helping people with because they're homeless. And in order to come to the program, they have to take a shower and use deodorant before they come into the classroom. Childcare is an issue. It's hard for people who really want to take the program who have kids to find childcare. And so some of them offer free childcare. Transportation is an issue. Some of them have a hard time actually getting to the site. Um, uniforms are sometimes an issue. For example, There's a program and this was one of our actual, like our first really, or one of our first really like concrete moves, which still pleases me to this day. There's an organization in Boston called NECAT, which is the New England Center for Arts and Technology. And basically they're a culinary training program. They don't really do much else other than culinary training. But the director called me and said, you know, we need a washing machine. And I said, oh, you need a dishwasher? Like I can probably hook you up with somebody has commercial dishwashers, and she said, no, we need a washing machine. We need a clothes washer. And I was like, oh, what's that about? And she said, well, many of our students are homeless and they can't come to class with clean uniforms. And so we need a place for them to be able to wash their uniforms. So we're the Jacque Pépin Foundation. We got on the phone. We got in touch with the powers that be at Whirlpool, and within a month, a commercial washer and dryer was donated from Whirlpool in support of their program. And, you know, it wasn't financially, it wasn't such a big deal. Like, I mean, that whole package costs, you know, three or $4,000. And we could have written them a check and they could have bought it. But in a certain sense, that concrete piece of saying like, this is the thing that we need, and we were able to activate our network and find that thing and get that thing donated to them. And it really made an immediate difference in the students' lives and in the instructors' lives and in the life of the program. It's pretty interesting. I mean, like I said, every one of these organizations is unique and we love hearing their stories and reading their stories. We get about 50 grant applications a year and that's always a joy for us to read through and see what amazing work these amazing people are doing all across the country. And then the hard part is we have to decide who we can afford to fund, and how many of those 50 we can fund every year.

Kaitlin: And I think you're getting to a really critical piece, right? Which is how do you provide all the supports that are needed for people to really be able to engage in the education you're trying to provide as well, and making sure all of those wraparound supports are available for all individuals and recognizing that their needs are very different. So, thank you so much for laying out both the successes you're seeing and how to address some of the challenges that you're seeing as well. In addition to your work at the Jacques Pépin Foundation, can you also speak to your work at Johnson & Wales and the connections you're seeing in your work across the university and the foundation?

Rollie: I'm very proud of Johnson & Wales. And especially like right now, I feel like Johnson & Wales is at a nice inflection point themselves in that in the last few years, we have begun to expand our definition and our understanding of what culinary education is at Johnson & Wales. You know, culinary education is pretty interesting and Julian probably has some knowledge, some long-term knowledge around this as well, but when I did my doctoral dissertation, my research was on fundamental learning outcomes for short-term community-based culinary training programs. So basically, I was doing research specifically designed to serve this community kitchen population that we have been supporting through the foundation. And so I did a mixed methods research and came up with sort of a set of criteria that should be essential outcomes for all of these programs to commit to. Part of what was interesting about doing that research was the realization that there is very little research out there about career and technical education. Like nobody is doing good robust studies about what are the best types of programs, how do they help the most people. You know, what are the best curricula to get these people to advance? One of the things I love about what's happening at Johnson & Wales is this expansion of our understanding of culinary education. And that's represented by, for one thing, we have a brand new program in our College of Culinary Arts, which is now called our College of Food Innovation & Technology, recently rebranded. And the program is called, is a Bachelor of Science in Sustainable Food Systems. And we really fought hard for a long time to get that program, to bring that program to life. Of course, there was always the question like, well, what jobs are there for the students that go in this program? And the fact of the matter is, is that anybody that's paying attention knows that there are tons of jobs that have sustainability in the job title. And there's more and more all the time that have sustainability dot dot dot food system in the job title. Right? This is a really big, important problem in the food system. Climate change is a huge concern, environmental sustainability is a huge concern, overfishing is a huge concern. All of these big concerns in the food system need to be understood by the next generation of hospitality and food service professionals. So we started this program. I teach several courses in the program. One of them is a lab course, which we call Conscious Cuisine, and it's basically about getting chefs to think about all of the decisions that they make in their kitchen that have an impact in the food service. So we teach about whole animal butchery. We teach about all of the different species of seafood that we could be using that we're not using and bycatch. We talk about food waste and what things get thrown away and how we can repurpose them and turn them into food items that we sell. We talk about economics of food production. So they have a food truck challenge where they have to produce an item that costs $2 or less that's nutritious and helpful and that they can sell. So Conscious Cuisine is a lab that forces the students who are on track to become food service professionals to think about the decisions that they make in their professional environment and how that impacts the food system. The other course that I teach which I'm super proud of is called Cultivating Local Food Systems. And that course is an academic course which again... It starts the students off by challenging them to think about all of the problems that we have in the food system. We introduce them to a little bit of the history of industrial agriculture, and then begin to introduce them to all of these issues, whether that is food insecurity, or food education and literacy, or environmental sustainability, or overfishing, or climate change. All of the food policy, the Farm Bill, we introduce them to all of these different sort of tangential issues that are around the food system that are not just the throughput of farmer grows it, it gets harvested, it gets processed, chef buys it, somebody eats it. We understand that concept of the food system, but the food system is hugely more complex than that. $1.2 trillion a year spent in the United States and within the food system. So we introduce them to all of those issues and then I get them to sort of drill down. I'm like... pick one, like what is the thing that really drives you? What's the thing that gets you out of bed and gets you worried in the middle of the night? Is it food insecurity? Is it that people are not learning how to cook anymore? Is it access to food? Is it food deserts? Like what's the thing, right? And so they pick one of those issues and then I drive them towards discovering the policies that are associated. So they're doing deep dives on the farm bill and federal and state and local regulations to find out how those regulations impact that thing. And then I activate my network that I've developed from the foundation to support their learning. So at that point I say, oh, you're really interested in community gardens? Well, the foundation supports Southside Community Land Trust, and it's only two miles here from Johnson & Wales' campus. And what they do is they help immigrants establish gardens in their own communities so that they can grow the food that they know and have good, healthy, nourishing food to feed their families. And then I get the students to go out and volunteer for that organization for 20 hours. And then at the end of the course, the end of the semester, they come back and they tie all of this together. They say, here's the issue. Here's why it's a problem. Here are the policies that are associated with the problem. Here are the types of organizations that are doing the work to solve the problem. Here is the organization that I got to know really well when I did my volunteer hours that are solving the problem. Here's what's working. Here are the challenges that they're facing. Here are some recommendations I have for how they could do their work better and be more successful. And when they give that report, the students are so inspired by that point. It's like amazing. They come back and they're like, oh my God. I loved working with them. There's so many great people and they're doing such great work and it was so fun and they offered me a job and I'm gonna continue to volunteer and I'm gonna go home to my hometown in Lancaster, PA and I'm gonna start a community land trust there and I'm gonna put community gardens in the town where I grew up. And I'm like, yes, right? That's exactly what we want. We want these hungry Gen Xers and millennials who want to save the world to see the path. This is how you save the world. Here you go. You care about this, there's a path. The path exists already. Start walking, get on the path, let's go. So it's been great.

Kaitlin: It's amazing to hear, right? Just how you go from taking almost like a multi-system approach and thinking about the policy and thinking about the practice and thinking about what does this look like on the ground and how can you translate this to your own community? Just bringing that together for students at the university, I can see how it might. It's a class that you love to teach. That truly applied element sounds amazing and it is so rewarding to teach with that applied element. Related to that, what's your advice regarding practical steps that each of us who care about solving workforce issues should be doing to make ourselves forces on these matters? What are a few steps that you would recommend that we could take?

Rollie: You really have to understand that the system is super complex. And there's all kinds of barriers in all kinds of places. And it's hard to wrap your head around all the different barriers that exist. You know, Southside Community Land Trust was trying to help people who wanted to have chickens because the places that they came from, they always had like a few chickens in their yard. And that was a source of food and the chickens ate the table scraps and then they gave eggs and then when they were too old to give eggs then they became food themselves. And what they did was they went to the city government and they said, we need to change the zoning laws so that anybody who lives in Providence can have two to four chickens because it was illegal. And some of these illegalities, some of these laws that are on the books are archaic. There was probably a point where there were too many live animals in the city of Providence. And they were like, nope, no more live animals. But that was probably 150 years ago, right? And so they went and they lobbied the state legislature and the city legislature to get the law changed. And now it's legal to have chickens in your backyard in Providence. And it seemed like such a small thing, but somebody had to think of that is a piece that can actually improve lives. And, you know, I think all of us that work in nonprofits and think about the momentum of movements, you know, we have these classic representatives that help us, you know, that we have Gandhi and we have Margaret Mead and, you know, we have all these folks who have shown us that it just takes one person with a really important idea to start a trend to gain momentum, to gather others around them, to really foment real change. And so I think if you are truly passionate about workforce development, that you can find a nugget of activity that you can push forward that will make a difference. And I think everyone should believe that they can make a difference. Everyone should believe that whatever the one thing is that they see. that needs to be changed probably should be changed and that they have the capacity to change it if they just put enough energy into changing that one thing.

Julian: Yeah, it's funny, Rollie, listening to you speak and kind of thinking about even the words I use when I frame this discussion about you being this kind of living, breathing, you know, promising practitioner of workforce, a really key piece, a lot of people who listen to this podcast are, I mean, they're coming from all walks, community, employers, academics. I think you're a really great model for the academics in the sense that, you know, that it really is about that connection to kind of the hands-on. I mean, I love that your students are being introduced to this world that, you know, in this case, you happen to have built with the foundation. It's very compelling. And I just, I can't imagine, I mean, it seems to me that there's academics all over this country, all over the world. that can be doing this in their respective communities with their students and helping the community, building the workforce at multiple levels. So it's, you know, applause to you, Rollie. It's really amazing stuff.

Rollie: Yeah, well, thanks. I mean, I think one of the things that's interesting about it is that the, you know, every academic, every good teacher is focused on this idea of like, we need to create real experiences for our students, right? They're desperate to figure out how to bring real experiences to their students. And I think if you just, it takes more work for sure to take your students on field trips and to get your students connected to external organizations and you've got hoops that you have to jump through at your host institution and you have hoops that you have to jump through with the organization that you wanna work with. But that work is so rewarding. in the sense that once you get those connections established, I mean, we haven't been teaching this particular program for very long, but every teacher does that. One of the most joyous moments is that when that one kid that you taught five years ago comes back and says, oh my God, Chef Wiesen, you totally changed my life. That one day that you made the duck stock was just mind blowing for me. And you're like, okay, well. I don't really remember that day, but I'm glad you do. So when you create these experiences for people and you get them connected to the real world, like I said, every instructor, professor, teacher is trying to create those experiences. They're out there waiting. They're sitting there waiting to be grasped. Tangentially to that, when I was creating this Cultivating Local Food Systems course, I had so many people tell me like, oh, you'll never get the nonprofits to accept volunteers. They don't want a volunteer that's only going to be there for 20 hours. That doesn't make any sense at all. Absolutely not true. A hundred percent not true. I started connecting with these nonprofits and they were like, we would love to have a Johnson & Wales student. We would love to have a more robust relationship with Johnson & Wales. We would love to show these young people what we do. We would love to create a pipeline to get young people involved with what we do. Now they're like, are you just teaching that class again this semester? When can I expect your students? Right. And so I think that, I think a lot of people, uh, if you, if you're optimistic, you're more likely to grasp these opportunities and to create these pathways and, and to create opportunities. Uh, it's very easy to be defeatist and be like, the problem is too big. I can't move the machinery of my government. I can't move the machinery of my institution. I'd say just do it. It's possible.

Julian: Quite a proclamation and pretty straightforward. Rollie, as we're wrapping up the conversation now, how can listeners learn more about your work? We're very present in the internet. Our foundation website is just www.jp.foundation. That's Jacques Pépin, jp.foundation. We've got a pretty strong social media presence on Instagram and Facebook and... One of the things about Jacques is that he is such an interesting human. You know, like he should have been the most interesting person in the world on that beer commercial. I mean, he does so many, so many different things. He's an accomplished painter and he's published 35 books and he is on television and he does culinary education. You know, and he, you know, just during the, since the pandemic started, he produced what we call our Cooking at Home series. And he did over 300 individual video recipes that he shot in his home kitchen in the last three years. And that's been a really great driver for the foundation because that's something that we can offer to the public and that's also something that we can offer to our community kitchen partners to make it part of their curricula and their technical training. So there's a lot of ways to reach out to us. We have a membership. You can join the foundation as a member. It's super affordable at $60 a year is the opening rate for that. And for that $60 you get access to hundreds of videos and recipes that are available to our members only. And we have a great newsletter that you get and all that kind of stuff. But if you go to our website, you can look at our membership and see there's a lot of other benefits that you can partake of as well.

Julian: We'll include a link to the site and your social pages in the podcast notes. Awesome. Thank you so much.

Rollie: It's been great talking to you guys and I appreciate everything that you've done too. This is a big problem, this idea of people excluded from the workforce. You hear people talking about not having the employees that they need. One of our grantees is an organization called Edwin's in Cleveland. And he gave a very compelling speech not long ago that said, in food service, we don't have an employee problem. We have a leadership problem. If there were more leaders that were willing to take in people that want to work and mentor them and give them the skills that they need to perform well in the job setting, we wouldn't have nearly as big of an employment problem as we have. So it's not necessarily employment. It's about leaders and finding people who are willing to be good mentors to the people who need the skills.

Julian: Well said, well said. Well, thank you, Rollie. So appreciate you taking the time to speak with us.

Kaitlin: Thank you.

Rollie: Absolutely. My pleasure.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Workforces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.