Work in Progress

The gang got together to talk about what aspects of our writing we have confidence in, and where we think we can improve. Chapter endings, dialogue, dialogue tags, multi-layered plots, time travel, and more came up for discussion. All that, plus Wile E. Coyote.

Work discussed in this episode include:

"The Lighthouse at the End of the World" by Philip Suggars

"Six of Crows" by Leigh Bardugo

"The City and Its Uncertain Walls" by Haruki Murakami

"Lincoln in the Bardo" and "Victory Lap" by George Saunders

"Exit Party" by Emily St. John Mandel

Jim Butcher (but not "The Dresden Files" for this particular example)

"Coyote Vs. Acme"

The gang has had curveballs thrown at them, been hit by pitches, sacked, fouled, slashed, and other sports analogies. We brought our big feelings to the Carnegie Diner to talk about them and what our plans were going forward. We talked writer relationships, changing course on a project, and the joy of finding the perfect words that keeps us going.

The gang sits down with AWG poets Ashwin Verghese and Ron Giegle who do a great job of making poetry accessible. They talk form, their personal approaches to reading and writing poetry, what makes a poem "break containment," and more. They analyze poems selected in advance and then Ashwin and Ron recite poems of their own.

Here's what we talked about:

The Poetry Foundation

"We Real Cool" by Gwendolyn Brooks

"Good Bones" by Maggie Smith

"Introduction to Poetry" by Billy Collins

"Ars Poetica" by Archibald Macleish

And here's the link to the performance of "The Stranger's Case" the gang discussed...they got 2 details right (it was Ian McKellen on Stephen Colbert) and everything else wrong...but it's defiitely worth a watch.

Stacie leads this discussion about side characters. What makes them memorable? How are they different from secondary characters? Which ones do we love?

Artwork mentioned:

"The Pitt" HBO Max

"Big Little Lies" "Nine Perfect Strangers" by Liane Moriarty

"Six of Crows" by Leigh Bardugo

The Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells ("All Systems Red" is #1)

"A Song of Fire and Ice" by George R.R. Martin

The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey ("Leviathan Wakes" is #1)

The Harry Bosch Series by Michael Connelly ("The Black Echo" is #1)

Jack Reacher books by Lee Child ("Killing Floor" is #1)

The Gentleman Bastard Series by Scott Lynch

"The Lies of Locke Lamora" #1

"Red Seas Under Red Skies" #2

"The Republic of Thieves" #3

"Lincoln in the Bardo" by George Saunders

Heated Rivalry books by Rachel Reid ("The Long Game" is #6)

When is a bad writing day a slump? And when is that slump creative despair? And what do you do about it? Michael, Stacie, and Lori, left their individual pits of despair to get together and talk about it and eat their feelings. The 24-layer cake at Carnegie Diner was just the ticket.

Writers hear they need to be "ready to kill their darlings." What is really meant by this violent advice? The gang talk about what it means to them, when they ignore the advice, when they took it, and what the tell tale signs are that something you've written may be getting in the way of your story.

Following up on episode 2.3, Michael leads a discussion of villains. What constitiutes villany? What makes compelling baddies? How do bad guys fall short?

Villains discussed or heard in this episode:

Drexl (Gary Oldman) "True Romance"

Erik Killmonger (Michael B. Jordan) "Black Panther" films

Thenardier "Les Misérables" by Victor Hugo

Magneto (Ian McKellen) The X-Men films

The Mayor (Harry Groener) "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

The Sheriff of Nottingham (Alan Rickman) "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves"

Bill (David Carradine) "Kill Bill"

O'Brien (Richard Burton) "1984" by George Orwell

Darth Vader (James Earl Jones) "The Empire Strikes Back" (et al)

Thanos (Josh Brolin) The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Gestalt "The Rook" by Daniel O'Malley

The Carryx "The Captives War" by James S.A. Corey

The Dark Queen "Ninth House" by Leigh Bardugo

Smiley and Karla "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold" by John le Carré

Dr. Hannibal Lechter "Silence of the Lambs" (and nothing else) by Thomas Harris

Also discussed:

"Some Desperate Glory" by Emily Tesh

The crew met over a heaping and very likeable plate of nachos and more to discuss unlikeable characters. They debate the difference between villains, anti-heros, and unlikeables and share some hot takes on who (or what) gets under their skin.

Let us know what you think.

Examples of unlikeable characters discussed in this episode:

Jar Jar Binks, Star Wars Episodes 1-3 and elsewhere

Most everyone in "Normal People" and "Conversations with Friends" by Sally Rooney

Owen in "The Everlasting" by Alix E. Harrow

El in "The Scholomance" series by Naomi Novik

Alex Stern in "Ninth House" by Leigh Bardugo

Detective Josephus Miller in "The Expanse" by James S.A. Corey

Eleanor in "Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine" by Gail Honeyman

Welsey Wyndam-Pryce in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

Theon Greyjoy from "A Song of Fire and Ice" by George RR Martin

Amy Dunne in "Gone Girl" by Gillian Flynn (and Nick Dunne too!)

Every character in "Succession" on HBO

Every protagonist in the short story collection "Homesick for Another World" by Ottessa Moshfegh

Elaine in "A Court of Thorns and Roses" by Sarah J Maas

Antiheros referenced

Walter White in "Breaking Bad"

January Cole in "The Paradox Hotel" by Rob Hart

Carol in "Pluribus" on AppleTV

Joe Goldberg in "You" by Caroline Kepnes and on Netflix

Other references

"Wednesday" on Netflix

"I Who Have Never Known Men" by Jacqueline Harpman

Jackson Lamb in "Slow Horses" by Mick Herron and on AppleTV

"Dungeon Crawler Carl" series by Matt Dinniman

Edward Cullen in the "Twilight" series by Stephanie Meyer

Lori leads our discussion about character develoment. How do we go about it? And what do we look for - or hate - in a character?

References Include:

The Gentleman of Moscow by Amor Towles

The Dresden Files books by Jim Butcher

The Everlasting by Alix E. Harrow

Embassytown by China Miéville

Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir

The Witches Secret by Stacie Murphy

Stacie was enthralled by something we read in the group frecently - a collection of linked literary flash fiction from Max Paradise. She asked Max to join us on Boxing Day 2025 to talk about how we decide on what form to use for a particular project. Whether it's a short story that becomes a novella and then a novel, a short story or a novel that was never going to be anything but, or a magnum opus designed to punish readers that sits in a shoebox, Lori, Michael, and Stacie had a great meal and conversation with Max.